MBB: Wake Forest 70, Duke 68 Post-Game Thread

[Cavlaw]

Discuss the game here.

[kaufmjo]

How was that a travel? I dont get it. amazing comeback though

[Skitzle]

Not a loss to be ashamed about.

Best game you could have expected. We all knew who was the more athletically talented team coming in, but Duke did a great job of showing why they're a Final Four contender.

Gritty comeback, tough loss.

If Teague doesn't make that ridiculous three at the end of the first half...

What a fantastic game to watch!

[Karl Beem]

I suspect we can blow any other team out if we just shoot moderately well. The trouble is, we almost never do so.

[snowdenscold]

Well I can tolerate that loss a lot better now since we were able to tie it up with 2.6 seconds left. If it had just gone downhill from when Wake went up 13 I'd be a lot more upset.

And is it just me, or did we seem to have so many really close shots that just didn't go in for some reason? Rim-outs and other unfortunate things.

[captmojo]

What a great play call from Gaudio. I was faked out, looking either for the lob or step back. Perfect execution on the screen. My hat is tipped. Revenge will be had.

Next play.

[FerryFor50]

Very poor travel call at the end there on Henderson.

Got grabbed in the air, then landed on a Wake player that had fallen under him. Very huge call.

Regardless, it was amazing that Duke was in the game at all. They were thoroughly outplayed other than on the boards. I'm actually encouraged by the fact that they almost pulled it out despite not playing well, shooting well, and playing on a hostile court.

BTW... since when do you storm the court after beating a ranked team when you're ranked almost as high?

[pamtar]

The fact that Wake knows they got bailed out makes me happy. We played bad and still managed to come back. We'll pound 'em in Cameron!!

[VTBaller03]

I'm not clear on how G traveled either. If anything, it should have been a foul on the person bringing him to the ground, and he gets two shots to win...oh well, I guess that's home cooking for you. Great comeback though, im just disappointed in that traveling call..

[Wildling]

Let me just say, what an effort to make that comeback and tie the game. Thrilling game to watch!

The one play you have to guard against and not let happen is a play under the basket with such little time. Unreal. What a bummer after such a great comeback.

[Neals384]

Great game, great effort by Duke to keep coming back. Give Wake credit, they played well.

Duke had chances, but it's tough to win when you're playing 5 on 8 most of the way.

Neal

[pamtar]

Anti-Man of the Match: that damn zebra...

[concrete]

What a great play call from Gaudio. I was faked out, looking either for the lob or step back. Perfect execution on the screen. My hat is tipped. Revenge will be had.

Next play.



well he pushed Henderson but I can't really tell if he pushed him hard of if Hendo went to go check the guy at the 3 point line thinkin gsomeone was going to help behind him.

[arnie]

Fantastic comeback by Singler and Henderson with a smart play by Scheyer on his rebound. In the end, lack of mobility in our big men makes it hard to overcome teams like Wake. Still, a great effort - some teams would have lost by 20.

[weezie]

Singler, motm.

[Mr Blue Devil]

Hard fought game. I hate to see Duke shoot so poorly but they fought hard and came back.

I personally do not believe in that travel call at the end but what can you do? In overtime, Duke would have prevailed.

The fact that Duke shot so poorly yet still only lost by 1 shows me how good this team is. I am proud of them.

GO DUKE!!!

[FerryFor50]

well he pushed Henderson but I can't really tell if he pushed him hard of if Hendo went to go check the guy at the 3 point line thinkin gsomeone was going to help behind him.

It looked like someone missed an assignment. I don't think Hendo would have been shrugged off that easily, even by Johnson.

[Acymetric]

Hey, can't complain. The fact that we were in the position to go to OT at the end was amazing, given our performance for most of the game. That was a tough road test against a great team, one of the elite teams in the country. We will play them better in the second game, and it'll be at home. Everyone not named Kyle or Gerald gave us almost nothing, save some huge free throws from Nolan and that big rebound from Jon.

Wake Forest obviously has a lot of height, and that hurt us, because our tall guys are role players and theirs are pretty good, if not stars. Their defense really disrupted our already mediocre offense, and our defense had trouble containing Wake Forest (who has the highest FG% in the league). Hey, it sucks that we lost and there are some things to be pissed about (surely coach K is) but overall I'm impressed with how we never gave up, and ready for our next game. We won't play that poorly every night, and we won't play a team that good most nights.

[dbd4ever]

Glad that one is over!! Received me an infraction on the board for this one. Is it possible to still see that we are the best and toughest team in the country even after a game like this? If we could have just settled down a little sooner, this game could have been totally different. We just came out slow and a lil awed at the atmosphere. Or was it there size? But a nice come back and we can see their weaknesses now. I say we use this as a learning tool and keep it in mind when they come to Durham!!

[grossbus]

"Very poor travel call at the end there on Henderson.

Got grabbed in the air, then landed on a Wake player that had fallen under him. Very huge call."

agree. many times at wake i feel we get jobbed by the officials, but i have no real beef with them tonight except for that call.


was something wrong with smith? he sat for long periods and did not play well at all. sick?

[bluepenguin]

After watching the replay a few times from several angles, it looked to me like he pushed Henderson out of the way. So they were given the game on the last two plays: the bad travelling call and the no call on the offensive foul. However, we can't blame the loss on those plays.
NEXT GAME.

[banneheim]

So if a "tie-up" was called, WF had the possession arrow, wouldn't the ball be taken on the side?

[jkidd31]

How was that a travel? I dont get it. amazing comeback though

I uttered a not so nice word my 4 year old promptly repeated. Opps.
I thought Henderson was undercut, another post though he was grab while in the air. That's a huge call because a foul is sending Duke to the line with 2.6.

Good comeback inspite of a poor shooting night. I expected a loss tonight anyway, but losing that way bites.

[fisheyes]

What do you have to say about the Henderson travel?

Helluva comeback.

[dukeblue1206]

Great effort and comeback by our guys just to fall a little short. Anybody else like the idea of having Zoubs guard the inbound guy on that last play? I know we had a hard time inbounding 3-4 times when McFarland was guarding the inbounder. It is just a lot harder to throw around and over a 7'1 then a 6'7 guy. On the UVA

[captmojo]

Singler, motm.

Agreed. I don't think he was ever subbed, or if so, I don't remember it.

[yancem]

First off, you always hate to lose but this is a loss that I can live with. I don't feel like Duke played a terribly good came (I'll give some credit to Wake's defense) yet had the game tied with less than three seconds to go in an away game against a top 5 team. Hopefully the coaches will make a nice long lesson on that last play, both Henderson and Singler were not positioned correctly.

Second, I need a rule clarification. On the last rebound by Henderson, he came down on Teague who was laying on the ground. I hate to call a foul on a guy laid out on the ground but shouldn't Henderson be allowed space to come down? It's not like he landed and then slipped, he landed on Teague and tried not to crush him.

Third, it would be really nice if we could get Scheyer's shot going again. He's a real heady player and his free throw shooting was great but like Dickie V kept saying we weren't likely to win playing 2 on 5.

Lastly, can we please get rid of Mike Patrick!!!!!! He never seems to get the players' names right and makes all kinds of stupid and incorrect comments. How hard is it to tell the difference between Singler and Scheyer when you're sitting court side?

[FerryFor50]

"Very poor travel call at the end there on Henderson.

Got grabbed in the air, then landed on a Wake player that had fallen under him. Very huge call."

agree. many times at wake i feel we get jobbed by the officials, but i have no real beef with them tonight except for that call.


was something wrong with smith? he sat for long periods and did not play well at all. sick?

I didn't have a huge beef against the refs this game. Sure, a few of the turnovers created by Wake could have been called fouls, but I think it was pretty evenly called throughout.

However, to call a walk in that situation... tie game, Hendo falling because of contact on a rebound onto an already fallen Wake player... that's a pretty bad call to make.

[grossbus]

i think the time has come to give plumlee experience and give lance the bench.

sidebar. i think zoobs had every shot blocked. i don't think he can score against size.

[mike88]

I am so proud of our guys for hanging in and making such a great run at the end of the game. Kyle and G were great tonight- they carried us most of the game and almost managed to pull out the win. Kyle is a rebounding machine. Jon helped us with several smart plays and Dave and Lance both did a good job on defense, particularly in the second half. Nolan had a tough game, but I think he can learn from this game what it will take to win games at the highest level. This looked like an Elite Eight or Final Four match-up, and to only lose by 2 on the road exceeded my expectations.

Looking forward to Sunday vs Virginia . . . next play

[concrete]

"Very poor travel call at the end there on Henderson.

Got grabbed in the air, then landed on a Wake player that had fallen under him. Very huge call."

agree. many times at wake i feel we get jobbed by the officials, but i have no real beef with them tonight except for that call.


was something wrong with smith? he sat for long periods and did not play well at all. sick?

Smith handled the ball poorly IMO. I'm not sure what's going on with his ball handling but he's starting to make bad decisions, pick up his dribble at the wrong times, and make fairly bad passes. He's also looks slower than at the beginning of the season, so not sure what that's about

[flyingdutchdevil]

Hi all. New to posting on DBR but been a reader for years.
This was the most exciting college basketball game that I've seen. The comeback by Duke at the end was absolutely phenominal. Hate to say it, but either team deserved to win.

A few points:
1) Gerald is a star. He got blocked a few times, but his shooting touch and ability to convert in tight situations is priceless. Not to mention, the reverse dunk + foul was stunning.
2) McClure is easily one of our top 5, if not 4 players. He has really stepped it up during ACC play. His defense is nasty and he can easily guard players 3-4 inches taller than him.
3) We need more offense that G and Singler. They are, without question, miles ahead of the rest of the team offensively. This is absolutely crucial if we want win. It's not an issue that G is the only player with the ability to create his own shot, but we need players to make shots and not be afraid to shoot
4) Scheyer is in a horrible slump and something needs to be done about this. Fast. I've been reading some posts who think that isn't a big issue and will solve itself. News flash - tonight proved that it is an issue and it clearly hasn't solved itself.

Those are my main points. Small points that should still be considered
5) Zoubs needs to go straight up. Why does someone who is 7-2 pump fake 8 times before going up?
6) Plumlee should replace LT in the rotation (do I really need to explain?)
7) I think Greg played excellent today. Nolan's D was amazing but he needs to use his speed on offense and get in the paint
8) I hate tie-dye t-shirts

Anyway, hats off to WF. They played a great game and I can't wait for the rematch in Cameron.

[weezie]

Anti-Man of the Match: that damn zebra...


Absolutely. Although there are always choruses of how mistaken that view is, aren't there?
It's not like the refs are human and capable of game changing, subjective decisions, is it?

[Virginian]

Bad travel call on Hendo and bad no-call on Johnson (pushing Hendo out of the play) at the end, but you can't hope for ref gifts at the end. All in all an exciting game. Man, I wish we had pulled it out, but we came back strong on their court. Nothing to be ashamed of.

[mph]

I'm really proud of the way our guys played. Singler and Henderson, in particular, showed the kind of toughness that will make us hard to beat come tournament time. Kudos to Gaudio for anticipating how hard we'd try to deny Teague the ball and designing a great inbound play.

A couple of side notes:

1. Vitale deserves credit for calling Duke's run and for pegging Johnson as the guy to watch on the final play.

2. Tonight was another very physical game. I might be misremembering previous seasons but ACC officials seem to be allowing much more contact this year, particularly with the body.

[Neals384]

How was that a travel? I dont get it. amazing comeback though

G grabs the rebound, lands on his right foot only, which then loses traction (was his foot on someone's jersey?) and slides maybe a foot. That's a travel. So, I thought that was a correct call.

On the other hand, I lost track of the number of times G was hacked on offense with nothing called.

Neal

[dukestheheat]

The reverse camera angle shows the Wake player very clearly shoving Henderson completely out of the way and then he runs to the goal and gets the pass. That is a foul. I also realize that there is virtually no way that any referee will ever call that in that situation. It was clearly a push and it gave the player all the room he needed to make the play.

But, if we'd hit a few more shots (including free throws) like we have shown we can do, or if we'd taken care of the ball like we are able, then we would have won tonight.

I'm very proud of the comeback, and K will use this game as a teachable moment.

dukestheheat.

[CameronBlue]

What a great play call from Gaudio. I was faked out, looking either for the lob or step back. Perfect execution on the screen. My hat is tipped. Revenge will be had.

Next play.

Yes. I was upset with G until I saw the replay. Cutter rounded the screen and G cheated to the screeners right to guard against a pass to the arc for a 3. G didn't even bite on the fake that hard, the screener broke to the basket for the pass and scored. Good call by Wake. Some other thoughts:

1. Nolan was not up to the task, in large measure, though he hit some big free throws. Hopefully he'll learn from this. Through much of the game he had that deer in the headlights look.

2. What can we expect from the Center position from here on out? It likely will determine how far we go in the NCAAs. The bell is tolling for Zoubs.

3. It wasn't a disaster, we didn't play well, largely because from the outset we didn't play with confidence. The team looked hesitant and at times, scared. Kyle has the talent to make up for bad decision, but even he threw up some questionable shots. However he deserves the Congressional Medal of Honor for his effort on the boards.

4. Do they still offer the International Omelet at IHOP? I need some comfort food cause this game really hurts.

[miramar]

That was a very gutty comeback, but in the end Singler and Henderson shot 16/36 from the field, and the rest of the team shot 6/30. It's amazing that they tied the game with the bulk of the team shooting 20%.

Scheyer was 2/10 and 1/7 on threes, but he'll bounce back.

Wake is a very talented team and I'm not sure how VTU beat them.

[FerryFor50]

2) McClure is easily one of our top 5, if not 4 players. He has really stepped it up during ACC play. His defense is nasty and he can easily guard players 3-4 inches taller than him.
3) We need more offense that G and Singler. They are, without question, miles ahead of the rest of the team offensively. This is absolutely crucial if we want win. It's not an issue that G is the only player with the ability to create his own shot, but we need players to make shots and not be afraid to shoot


I think 2 and 3 are direct contradictions of each other... :p McClure IS a great defender, and got 10 boards tonight... but he has little to no offense. It's like playing 4 on 5 out there on O when he's in. I just wish he resembled Tony Lang just a little more... great D and enough O to avoid being ignored.

[Ben63]

Resiliency in spite of adversity. Thats how I would define tonight's game.

I'm not gonnna sit here and I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. about the officiating because overall I thought it was a well called game.

A few thoughts...

1. Zoubek is ineffective amongst men his own size.

2. Smith should have been playing more. Paulus made that one three and did nothing else the rest of the game other than that layup. Smith is a better shooter, better defender and Paulus missed a TON of 3's tonight.

3. Scheyer didn't shoot it well but he continues to play excellent defense.

4. Henderson is a freak. Makes shot when we need them. Most athletic player by far on the team. Loved how he came out and played well immediatly in the 2nd half.

5. I'm not sure we have ever had that many of our shots blocked tonight. Wake forced us to hit jump shots, and more the most part, we missed them

Congrats to Wake on a huge win. Things will be different in Cameron.

[concrete]

Hi all. New to posting on DBR but been a reader for years.
This was the most exciting college basketball game that I've seen. The comeback by Duke at the end was absolutely phenominal. Hate to say it, but either team deserved to win.

A few points:
1) Gerald is a star. He got blocked a few times, but his shooting touch and ability to convert in tight situations is priceless. Not to mention, the reverse dunk + foul was stunning.
2) McClure is easily one of our top 5, if not 4 players. He has really stepped it up during ACC play. His defense is nasty and he can easily guard players 3-4 inches taller than him.
3) We need more offense that G and Singler. They are, without question, miles ahead of the rest of the team offensively. This is absolutely crucial if we want win. It's not an issue that G is the only player with the ability to create his own shot, but we need players to make shots and not be afraid to shoot
4) Scheyer is in a horrible slump and something needs to be done about this. Fast. I've been reading some posts who think that isn't a big issue and will solve itself. News flash - tonight proved that it is an issue and it clearly hasn't solved itself.

Those are my main points. Small points that should still be considered
5) Zoubs needs to go straight up. Why does someone who is 7-2 pump fake 8 times before going up?
6) Plumlee should replace LT in the rotation (do I really need to explain?)
7) I think Greg played excellent today. Nolan's D was amazing but he needs to use his speed on offense and get in the paint
8) I hate tie-dye t-shirts

Anyway, hats off to WF. They played a great game and I can't wait for the rematch in Cameron.


I like Zoubs but when there's athletic big men on the floor he just doesn't get it done, which is why he played so little. I thought Thomas gave us more and I agree Plumlee should get more PT, but I would say he should take Zoubs minutes. singler and thomas usually is enough to get it done on the boards and plumlee is a nice shot blocker and active defender as well.

[jkidd31]

Anyone else sick of the stupid piped in music? House of Pain and the Zombie song have become very tired.

[VTBaller03]

Gee, not one mention of the questionable travel call on G by ESPN in the postgame. I am stunned. :rolleyes:

[SMO]

Well, we now know we don't need a bigger boat. We just need ours to run a little better. Good to know we can play with the best teams in the nation even on a below average shooting night. The team will grow from this and get better from here.

[FerryFor50]

Resiliency in spite of adversity. Thats how I would define tonight's game.

I'm not gonnna sit here and I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. about the officiating because overall I thought it was a well called game.

A few thoughts...

1. Zoubek is ineffective amongst men his own size.

2. Smith should have been playing more. Paulus made that one three and did nothing else the rest of the game other than that layup. Smith is a better shooter, better defender and Paulus missed a TON of 3's tonight.

3. Scheyer didn't shoot it well but he continues to play excellent defense.

4. Henderson is a freak. Makes shot when we need them. Most athletic player by far on the team. Loved how he came out and played well immediatly in the 2nd half.

5. I'm not sure we have ever had that many of our shots blocked tonight. Wake forced us to hit jump shots, and more the most part, we missed them

Congrats to Wake on a huge win. Things will be different in Cameron.

I don't think Henderson is the most athletic "by far." I think he is VERY athletic, but I also think Elliot Williams and David McClure are also very athletic. I mean, McClure grabbed 10 boards against a big Wake team, and he's a generous 6'6".

[bird]

IMO, Duke over the years has proven vulnerable to the in bounds play under the basket. It has been explained here that zone is the preferred defense against the in bounds play, but Duke invariably sticks with man. It has also been explained here that to play good zone you need to play and practice it a bunch, which Duke does not. Therefore, I think the philosophy is that it is better to play a superior man defense than an mediocre zone against the in bounds play. We get a lot out of the man defense, but it seems like in basketball every strength gives up a weakness somewhere else. One of the weaknesses of man is against the in bounds play. Specifically here, Henderson got beat by an exceptionally quick move that was preplanned by Wake so the passer was ready, there was no help waiting (in zone someone would have been waiting to guard the basket), and the play was too quick for Smith or Singler to provide help.

Good play by Wake. That made up for some boneheadedness earlier in the Duke run. I will say that their Smith played really well for most of the second half, our Smith seemed out of sorts (what was he doing passing on the open three?), and that may have been the difference.

[Jumbo]

During the game, I wrote the following (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=249176&postcount=183): "I've achieved a certainly level of peace about this game, regardless of whether we are able to come back. I'll explain more after the game."

Well, now it's after the game, and even after coming back, tying the game and losing in a painful fashion, I'm unusually calm. Why? I think there are a bunch of reasons.

1) I came into the game expecting a really tough game. Deep down, I probably thought we'd lose.

2) We played really hard. I know Coach K told the sideline reporter that we needed to play harder, but I thought just about everyone fought, scrapped and clawed against a much taller team.

3) We never folded, showing both mental and physical toughness.

4) Coach K coached a really good game. He tried tons of combinations, searching for something. The defensive game plan was sound. We tried three different guys at point guard. Miles Plumlee got solid PT with Zoubek struggling. Elliot Williams got a shot to show what he could do. We adjusted offensively in the second half and got G and Kyle going.

5) Guys took -- and made -- tough shots, particularly G and Kyle. Singler's two threes were enormous, especially given how hard he worked all game and how tired he must have been. G's jumper was money. And Scheyer got a great look before that on what could have been a game-winner, pump faked, and didn't hesitate. Those will drop for him in the future.

6) The game was called ... strangely ... but we dealt with it. There were odd calls at both ends (culminating in G's "travel"). But we played through the contact. I think the refs wanted to let both teams play, and we got away with a fair share of fouls too. Against a bigger team, a tighter-called game might have benefited us more. But we just kept plugging away, on the road, against as talented team as you'll find in the nation. And we were a jump shot away from the lead at the end, and a strange travel call away from, at worst, overtime.

7) There's still so much room for improvement. Look, Wake's combination of length and quickness clearly disrupted our offense. If you don't give their D credit, you're just not a fan of basketball. That said, we can play better. Much better.
-Normally, we'll knock down more open threes.
-I think we'll rush a little less moving forward -- Kyle, in particular, seemed to be in too much of a hurry on some of his drives.
-Nolan Smith will play better. His early struggles led K to play Paulus more, and we saw where that hurt on the defensive end. Eventually, K tried using Scheyer at the point, asking him to guard Ish Smith (who I thought played really well, btw) just isn't fair.
-Zoubs can and will play better. He seemed to struggle against someone else with his size. He needs to use his ball fakes better (as do all our guys around the basket).
-K made two mistakes. I think he waited too long to go to the small lineup, which was really effective, even on the boards. And on the inbound that led to Johnson's bucket, he should have replaced Smith, Scheyer or Henderson with another big man to protect the basket. I don't think K will make that second mistake, in particular, again.

8) In the end, my suspicions about this team were confirmed. We can defend anyone, and that D will keep us in any game. We're streaky offensively and still need to develop a bit more flow, get Scheyer going and get out on the break more. It's a work in progress that I think will end well. We are a much better rebounding team than we get credit for, particularly on the offensive glass, which remains our secret weapon.

I normally frown at the casual way in which "Next Play" gets thrown around. But after a game like this, that's really how I feel. I'm over this loss already. It was a tough game against a tough team in a tough league. Let's take this game, grow from it and get better. Bring on Virginia. Next Play.

[SMO]

Gee, not one mention of the questionable travel call on G by ESPN in the postgame. I am stunned. :rolleyes:

I thought we had several calls go against us throughout the game. A few more than Wake had go against them. That's OK, we need to shoot better and not lose focus even for a second against a team that good. This Duke team looks mature enough to learn from this one and move on.

[Son of Mojo]

I detest that there were several walks & fouls not called on WF (with some called on us that were questionable....G's hook???), but had we stuck some of our shots that we missed then things do not come down to having a last second shot. I say all that but I don't blame the game on calls (though I did lose my voice a little screaming for a walk). We had our opportunities--learn from the loss and move on.

[Wander]

Nolan didn't play well but it's Scheyer who is supposed to be our other top player. He needs to step up.

Good game though, nothing to be embarrassed about...

[CameronBlue]

Resiliency in spite of adversity. Thats how I would define tonight's game.

I'm not gonnna sit here and I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. about the officiating because overall I thought it was a well called game.

A few thoughts...

1. Zoubek is ineffective amongst men his own size.

2. Smith should have been playing more. Paulus made that one three and did nothing else the rest of the game other than that layup. Smith is a better shooter, better defender and Paulus missed a TON of 3's tonight.

3. Scheyer didn't shoot it well but he continues to play excellent defense.

4. Henderson is a freak. Makes shot when we need them. Most athletic player by far on the team. Loved how he came out and played well immediatly in the 2nd half.

5. I'm not sure we have ever had that many of our shots blocked tonight. Wake forced us to hit jump shots, and more the most part, we missed them

Congrats to Wake on a huge win. Things will be different in Cameron.

I agree with all your points except 2. Smith was not ready for a game of this magnitude, at least not tonight. He's our point guard for the future, he'll learn from this game and get better. Paulus missed shots but so did everyone else. I LOVE Paulus' confidence. He had the guts to take shots that Nolan was not prepared to take. You can't make 'em unless you think they're going in. If K continues to give him the chance Paulus will not have a shooting game this poor for the rest of the season, mark my words.

[dukestheheat]

IMO, Duke over the years has proven vulnerable to the in bounds play under the basket. It has been explained here that zone is the preferred defense against the in bounds play, but Duke invariably sticks with man. It has also been explained here that to play good zone you need to play and practice it a bunch, which Duke does not. Therefore, I think the philosophy is that it is better to play a superior man defense than an mediocre zone against the in bounds play. We get a lot out of the man defense, but it seems like in basketball every strength gives up a weakness somewhere else. One of the weaknesses of man is against the in bounds play. Specifically here, Henderson got beat by an exceptionally quick move that was preplanned by Wake so the passer was ready, there was no help waiting (in zone someone would have been waiting to guard the basket), and the play was too quick for Smith or Singler to provide help.

Good play by Wake. That made up for some boneheadedness earlier in the Duke run. I will say that their Smith played really well for most of the second half, our Smith seemed out of sorts (what was he doing passing on the open three?), and that may have been the difference.

...was pushed back and out of position to make any type of defensive play. The reverse camera angle shows clearly the Wake player shoving G away.

Good call to run that play right there, but they were helped on that one.

dth.

[concrete]

I detest that there were several walks & fouls not called on WF (with some called on us that were questionable....G's hook???), but had we stuck some of our shots that we missed then things do not come down to having a last second shot. I say all that but I don't blame the game on calls (though I did lose my voice a little screaming for a walk). We had our opportunities--learn from the loss and move on.




one that was clear was Aminu pivoting and moving/sliding his pivot foot out on the perimeter like 2 times. I found that humerous and even more so now after the Hendo travel.

[jkidd31]

I don't think you can say Zoubs can't score against guys his size based on this game. The thing with Wake was it seemed like our guys made a good moves on the guy guarding them and the block came from the other guy helping. The only other team I can recall seeing this year with as big and athletic frontline is UConn.

[taiw93]

This was the best loss a Duke team has had in years. We played like absolute crap, couldn't shoot, had trouble defending, were in a hostile environment etc., and still managed to erase an 11 point defeceit and come within a questionable travel call of forcing overtime. Gutsy playing by G and Kyle. Not to mention, we still have so much room for improvement. This team is Final Four bound, mark it down.
Btw- Dino is one hell of a coach.

[Ben63]

I don't think Henderson is the most athletic "by far." I think he is VERY athletic, but I also think Elliot Williams and David McClure are also very athletic. I mean, McClure grabbed 10 boards against a big Wake team, and he's a generous 6'6".

Ok, you might be right about that. Williams is very athletic but that is useless when he spends 37 minutes on the bench. All I'm saying is Henderson uses his superior athleticism to make the most plays. His driving and finishing ability allows him to create his own shot on a pull up j and he can also hit the 3.

[FerryFor50]

...was pushed back and out of position to make any type of defensive play. The reverse camera angle shows clearly the Wake player shoving G away.

Good call to run that play right there, but they were helped on that one.

dth.

Eh... it wasn't much of a push at all. It's a normal basketball play that happens all the time. The onus was on Duke to make the right call - personnel-wise and defense-wise, and they didn't. Gaudio drew up a good call, used the size mismatch, and left with a win.

I'm more angry about the play BEFORE that one. :D

[Exiled_Devil]

i think the time has come to give plumlee experience and give lance the bench.

sidebar. i think zoobs had every shot blocked. i don't think he can score against size.

Huh? What's with the common dissing of Lance? If anything, it seems like he isn't getting any passes into the paint. I don't know why - maybe lack of positioning, maybe lack f teammate confidence. But I don' think Plumlee could do any better. Heck, LT played 13 minutes and Miles played 6.

[BlueintheFace]

Positives:
1) Hell of a comeback. I mean really, great defensive effort down the stretch.

2) Great effort by Singler and Henderson. Truly Great. G has ice in his veins and Kyle NEVER stops working.

3) Lots of heart in that second half... on the road... against a more talented team. Pretty solid.

Negatives:
1) I was just very very disappointed in Nolan for his effort on both ends of the floor. I keep forgetting that he is just a sophomore and then games like this happen and I am quickly reminded. (Not to mention the defensive assignment on the last play, but I don't want to talk about it)

2) I am now almost convinced that Duke's Big Three is quickly becoming Duke's Big Two. I reserved judgment for a while, but I really thought Jon would come back out of his shell this game. Jon brings so much to the table, but he has fallen off offensively for almost the entire ACC season and I think I see his confidence slipping with each game. He is still a great defender, but ... I just miss December Jon, that's all.

3) There was a call down the stretch... but I don't want to talk about it. Sometimes things just aren't going your way.

[dyedwab]

was something wrong with smith? he sat for long periods and did not play well at all. sick?

I just thought that Nolan was making poor decisions and that cost him court time...It happens.

He'll be better next game.

[FerryFor50]

Ok, you might be right about that. Williams is very athletic but that is useless when he spends 37 minutes on the bench. All I'm saying is Henderson uses his superior athleticism to make the most plays. His driving and finishing ability allows him to create his own shot on a pull up j and he can also hit the 3.

I think Hendo was a lot like Williams his freshman year... but he was getting the PT. Williams has the athleticism to be as good or better than Hendo.

[dukelifer]

Duke played hard and mounted an excellent comeback. They also did not take full advantage of many opportunities handed to them by Wake on a silver platter. If anything, this game showed that Singler and Henderson are at another level. Henderson really played well down the stretch. Also, I thought McClure played an excellent, excellent game. 12 tough rebounds for Dave and some very heady plays. Scheyer's shot continues to be a concern. But it could come back in an instant- and that would give Duke another weapon. But I am hoping we will see it soon as it is becoming a worry. Smith did not have a great game on O but did his part in neutralizing Teague in this game. It seemed that Johnson and Aminu had their way at times. They are tough match ups for Duke and most every team out there. Perhaps the biggest disappointment was the ineffectiveness from the center position. Z and Thomas continue to struggle a lot against good big men and that is an issue going forward. Someone (and that includes Plumlee) needs to step up. I have this sneaking feeling that Plumlee could do it. He may start to get more playing time as a result. If Smith can start to assert himself and Scheyer can find his shot, Duke will be a very tough out. Make no mistake about it- Wake is a very good team. They showed their youth again tonight and are more likely to be taken out by a lesser team than Duke. But they have shown they can play with the best and beat the best. It will be interesting to see how they progress.

[concrete]

I don't think you can say Zoubs can't score against guys his size based on this game. The thing with Wake was it seemed like our guys made a good moves on the guy guarding them and the block came from the other guy helping. The only other team I can recall seeing this year with as big and athletic frontline is UConn.


I think you can. He's fairly ineffective against comp his size...i thought last game he was coming out his shell. He's just a bit too slow in his movements and not very explosive. I would still play him cuz you can't teach size but Plumlee has shown he can do exactly what Zoubs does and better. At least Lance plays sound defense.

[WojoSay?]

Well, we now know we don't need a bigger boat. We just need ours to run a little better. Good to know we can play with the best teams in the nation even on a below average shooting night. The team will grow from this and get better from here.


Up until this game, I thought we were pretty good. Now, I really believe we have a very good shot at winning a national championship this year. Getting back into this game, to lose on a last second shot...i will take it on the road against another top 5 team. Remember, our shooting percentage was terrible. Wake can be given credit for part of this.

Let's Go Duke!

[VTBaller03]

I agree on Scheyer as well, we really need him to step up on the offensive end. Perhaps he's getting tired from playing great defense though.

It was good to see Miles and Elliot get some burn. I thought Miles did a solid job in the paint for the most part. Dave was huge for us on the boards, he's such a great "glue" guy for us.

Anyone else annoyed that Wake fans rushed the court? I mean, come on, act like you've been there before people. It's number 4 beating 1, it's not like they just won the final four.

[dbd4ever]

Jumbo,

Your post was very insightful and right on point! I agree! Next Play! I think when Scheyer finds his shot again on offense and with Singler and Henderson playing the way they are, we will be great offensively!! Plumlee is the key to the down low battle!!! He looks very confident every time on the floor and he also seems to take the advice and criticism of his teammates and coaches very well. We are learning very well as the season goes on!! Go DUKE!!

[FerryFor50]

I don't fault Duke's bigs for the poor showing they had - I credit Wake's bigs. They have one of the best front lines in the nation, and it showed. Aminu is a GREAT weak-side shot blocker, and he can play offense. Johnson is a beast. And they also have a couple other bigs who are as good as ours in Weaver and McFarland.

I don't think it was size that bothered Z - it was size, quickness, skill, athleticism.... you name it. They were just better players. Z will bounce back when he plays Hans-travel.

[chrisheery]

I'm not clear on how G traveled either. If anything, it should have been a foul on the person bringing him to the ground, and he gets two shots to win...oh well, I guess that's home cooking for you. Great comeback though, im just disappointed in that traveling call..

I think this is precisely why the ref called a travel. I don't think it was the right call, but the ref may have realized that he blew the whistle and was about to call a foul that would give Duke a chance to win the game with two free throws. So, in a moment of panic after already having blown the whistle, he switched it to a travel call to save face in Wake's home building. Maybe he thought it was the lesser of two evils, but clearly, that was a foul as there was contact that lead to an advantage for Wake Forest.

Regardless, we didn't play well enough to win that game, and I hope we play better as a team when they come to Cameron. I think there was plenty about Wake to exploit, but we simply did not execute the way we should have.

[dukemsu]

Not going to say I feel good about the loss, as a loss is never good and the last play was not indicative of a veteran club. However, some good things to take out of it:

-G and Kyle are matchup nightmares for everyone. I know we don't have a lot of size, but not many teams have guys to match up Kyle and G.
-This team is very fortunate to have Dave McClure. Huge effort tonight.
-Great toughness exhibited in the comeback. Great toughness exhibited overall. Despite the announcers' pronoucements of our physical disadvantage (I turned them off five minutes in), we outrebounded a huge team.
-Shot 33% and lost by two.

We are not #1 at this point but we are a legit nasty team that no one will want to play. I'll take that.

dukemsu

[jkidd31]

My last post and I'm going to bed...I also thought is was a questionable no call on that dunk Aminu (sp) had in the first half....thought he was over the back.

On to UVA and that other team we play next week.

[geraldsneighbor]

My opening thoughts:
Hats off to Wake. They played great for 35 minutes, but we did an amazing job battling back. G and Kyle are truly 2 amazing players. Height didn't lose the game. We out rebounded them and had more offensive rebounds. Offensively however, Jon and Nolan need to give us more. Shooting 33 percent and 4-22 from 3 isn't good enough. Nolan missing the front end of the one and one was big.

Also, the 3 empty trips we had when it was 61-54 ultimately is what did us in. Jon gave us alot of D. McClure gave us 25 veteran minutes with 10 rebounds. I think alot can be taken from this game.

Loses in January don't decide anything though. Aside from maybe fall ing to 5 in the rankings, let's not lose any sleep. We have a great team, and tonight was just another testament to that.

If someone can tell me though how Henderson never establishing possession on the floor and then having his legs swiped is a travel, please do. That call was brutal. It is what it is though.

[roywhite]

I think Hendo was a lot like Williams his freshman year... but he was getting the PT. Williams has the athleticism to be as good or better than Hendo.

I think Williams can be a very good player; we could have used another athletic perimeter defender for this game, but he's just not ready for major playing time in a game like this.

Sorry, but I don't see him becoming a player as good as Henderson. Gerald is playing at a very high level.

[pamtar]

During the game, I wrote the following (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=249176&postcount=183): "I've achieved a certainly level of peace about this game, regardless of whether we are able to come back. I'll explain more after the game."

Well, now it's after the game, and even after coming back, tying the game and losing in a painful fashion, I'm unusually calm. Why? I think there are a bunch of reasons.

1) I came into the game expecting a really tough game. Deep down, I probably thought we'd lose.

2) We played really hard. I know Coach K told the sideline reporter that we needed to play harder, but I thought just about everyone fought, scrapped and clawed against a much taller team.

3) We never folded, showing both mental and physical toughness.

4) Coach K coached a really good game. He tried tons of combinations, searching for something. The defensive game plan was sound. We tried three different guys at point guard. Miles Plumlee got solid PT with Zoubek struggling. Elliot Williams got a shot to show what he could do. We adjusted offensively in the second half and got G and Kyle going.

5) Guys took -- and made -- tough shots, particularly G and Kyle. Singler's two threes were enormous, especially given how hard he worked all game and how tired he must have been. G's jumper was money. And Scheyer got a great look before that on what could have been a game-winner, pump faked, and didn't hesitate. Those will drop for him in the future.

6) The game was called ... strangely ... but we dealt with it. There were odd calls at both ends (culminating in G's "travel"). But we played through the contact. I think the refs wanted to let both teams play, and we got away with a fair share of fouls too. Against a bigger team, a tighter-called game might have benefited us more. But we just kept plugging away, on the road, against as talented team as you'll find in the nation. And we were a jump shot away from the lead at the end, and a strange travel call away from, at worst, overtime.

7) There's still so much room for improvement. Look, Wake's combination of length and quickness clearly disrupted our offense. If you don't give their D credit, you're just not a fan of basketball. That said, we can play better. Much better.
-Normally, we'll knock down more open threes.
-I think we'll rush a little less moving forward -- Kyle, in particular, seemed to be in too much of a hurry on some of his drives.
-Nolan Smith will play better. His early struggles led K to play Paulus more, and we saw where that hurt on the defensive end. Eventually, K tried using Scheyer at the point, asking him to guard Ish Smith (who I thought played really well, btw) just isn't fair.
-Zoubs can and will play better. He seemed to struggle against someone else with his size. He needs to use his ball fakes better (as do all our guys around the basket).
-K made two mistakes. I think he waited too long to go to the small lineup, which was really effective, even on the boards. And on the inbound that led to Johnson's bucket, he should have replaced Smith, Scheyer or Henderson with another big man to protect the basket. I don't think K will make that second mistake, in particular, again.

8) In the end, my suspicions about this team were confirmed. We can defend anyone, and that D will keep us in any game. We're streaky offensively and still need to develop a bit more flow, get Scheyer going and get out on the break more. It's a work in progress that I think will end well. We are a much better rebounding team than we get credit for, particularly on the offensive glass, which remains our secret weapon.

I normally frown at the casual way in which "Next Play" gets thrown around. But after a game like this, that's really how I feel. I'm over this loss already. It was a tough game against a tough team in a tough league. Let's take this game, grow from it and get better. Bring on Virginia. Next Play.

Thanks Jumbo. I've been pissed and I need to go to bed. Your post calmed me. Can I PM you next time we lose and I have to get up at 5 am?

[FerryFor50]

My last post and I'm going to bed...I also thought is was a questionable no call on that dunk Aminu (sp) had in the first half....thought he was over the back.

On to UVA and that other team we play next week.

I don't think you call over the back on that. Especially not at Wake.

[Virginian]

Our guys held him to 11 points -- props to Nolan if he was guarding him most of the game. We had the game in our hands, just couldn't make the shots. We shot abysmally all night. Yes, some of that was due to the pace of the game, but had our chances to win this thing. We just didn't make the shots we needed to until the end and then we were coming back from too great a deficit.

[FerryFor50]

I think Williams can be a very good player; we could have used another athletic perimeter defender for this game, but he's just not ready for major playing time in a game like this.

Sorry, but I don't see him becoming a player as good as Henderson. Gerald is playing at a very high level.

I dunno... Henderson is having a great stretch, but players get hot.

We'll just have to wait and see. I think Elliot has a little more raw talent to go with his athleticism. I'm not calling for him to play more or anything, because he doesn't have a spot right now. Just saying, he can end up being special... and maybe the answer to the PG conundrum.

[Philadukie]

We showed what we're made of with that comeback. Have to be proud of that. To be in a position to win after being outplayed most of the game in a hostile environment is a huge credit to this team.

[geraldsneighbor]

Man we did take Teague out of the game. If you told me he would have 14 points less then he did last year against us, I would've felt dam good.

[jkidd31]

I don't think you call over the back on that. Especially not at Wake.

Last post part #2. Then if that wasn't an over the back it should have been a travel :)

[Ben63]

At the end of the first half with 9 seconds left Wake had the ball on the inbounds pass. There was 3 seconds on the shot clock but it was turned off but none of the players realize it. It was this fact that caused Teague to chuck up the ridiculous shot with 5 seconds left. If he had known the shot clock was reset he would not have taken that shot. Does he make a 3 anyway? I don't know, you don't know, but the outcome may have been different.

Obviously with a 2 point game the are a million what-ifs and in no way am I making an excuse. I'm just saying.

[FerryFor50]

Last post part #2. Then if that wasn't an over the back it should have been a travel :)

hehe

Touche'. :p

[VTBaller03]

Well said Jumbo, next play.

All I can say now is Feb 22 rematch in Durham, we won't be playing 8 on 5 in Durham.

[dbd4ever]

At the end of the first half with 9 seconds left Wake had the ball on the inbounds pass. There was 3 seconds on the shot clock but it was turned off but none of the players realize it. It was this fact that caused Teague to chuck up the ridiculous shot with 5 seconds left. If he had known the shot clock was reset he would not have taken that shot. Does he make a 3 anyway? I don't know, you don't know, but the outcome may have been different.

Obviously with a 2 point game the are a million what-ifs and in no way am I making an excuse. I'm just saying.

You might want to check the DVR on that one. He looked to be standing out of bounds when McFarland handed him the ball before he took that shot. So no shot at all would have been even better!!!

[FerryFor50]

At the end of the first half with 9 seconds left Wake had the ball on the inbounds pass. There was 3 seconds on the shot clock but it was turned off but none of the players realize it. It was this fact that caused Teague to chuck up the ridiculous shot with 5 seconds left. If he had known the shot clock was reset he would not have taken that shot. Does he make a 3 anyway? I don't know, you don't know, but the outcome may have been different.

Obviously with a 2 point game the are a million what-ifs and in no way am I making an excuse. I'm just saying.

No one's talking about it because it doesn't really matter. He made a huge shot. I don't think any shot at that point of the game causes a win or loss, but it did give them momentum coming out of the half, and it showed. It took Duke 10 minutes to get stabilized and play solidly. By then, it was a 13 point deficit.

[Ben63]

No one's talking about it because it doesn't really matter. He made a huge shot. I don't think any shot at that point of the game causes a win or loss, but it did give them momentum coming out of the half, and it showed. It took Duke 10 minutes to get stabilized and play solidly. By then, it was a 13 point deficit.

It doesn't matter but it gave them momentum? Anything that gives even a shred of momentum in a game of this magnitude matters. Let me reiterate that there are a million what-if's in this game. They could have their own thread. It is not excuse for the loss but I am just saying it was a bigger play in the course of the game than it is getting credit for.

[longtimefan]

I am never happy with a loss.i thought the guys showed a lot of heart coming back like they did.a close game like this may be helpful later in a ncaa run.better a close loss now than later in the tourney .i thought we seemed a little off on offense.honestly i have had this game circled for over a month as our first true test.it was not the result i wanted but it gave me a good idea where we stand as a team.

[geraldsneighbor]

We didnt play well for 35 minutes and almost won. Alot of questionable calls in the process. I just wish they didn't call that travel on G. Let the kids decide it in OT.

[FerryFor50]

It doesn't matter but it gave them momentum? Anything that gives even a shred of momentum in a game of this magnitude matters. Let me reiterate that there are a million what-if's in this game. They could have their own thread. It is not excuse for the loss but I am just saying it was a bigger play in the course of the game than it is getting credit for.

Oh no doubt it was a big shot. And yes, it mattered in terms of momentum, but that's such an intangible that there's never any quantifiable way of judging its effect.

I don't think the time on the clock/shot clock is what mattered, which is what I should have been clearer about. :)

[Waynne]

We played a great game against an elite team and almost won, so it's not all bad. With a couple of breaks we would have won. Singler showed why he is an All-American, and the rest of the guys learned what it takes to beat a big, athletic team featuring 3 future NBA players. Can't wait for the game in Cameron.

[Wildling]

We didnt play well for 35 minutes and almost won. Alot of questionable calls in the process. I just wish they didn't call that travel on G. Let the kids decide it in OT.

I don't agree with that. I thought we played really well considering the environment we played in. Wake is a really good and a tough team with some major size. I though Duke played well enough to win the game, and they almost did.

[davekay1971]

Can we please not, in any way shape or form, relaunch the "we need a big guy to coach the big guys" talk?

Points from this game:
1) Teague is a player of the year candidate. And we did a good job limiting him.
2) Aminu is as good as billed. Hope he gets away from the "angry face" every time he makes a nice play.
3) Wake Forest students really need someone to talk to them about acting like they belong at the big boys table. Good God. They're a legit national championship contender (oh, by the way, with the personnel for a back-to-back run if they get it done this year). Stop rushing the court already.
4) We're a final four contender
5) If Scheyer gets it on track offensively, we're a championship contender

Good game from Wake, and a loss I can live with. Our guys took their best game, were down by 13 midway through the second half on their floor, and nearly won it. A great January game. I can only imagine all the teaching points K will have from this game. We'll be a better team because of this game. I bet our guys want Virginia NOW. If we don't dominate UVa, I'll be surprised.

[roywhite]

Can we please not, in any way shape or form, relaunch the "we need a big guy to coach the big guys" talk?

Points from this game:
1) Teague is a player of the year candidate. And we did a good job limiting him.
2) Aminu is as good as billed. Hope he gets away from the "angry face" every time he makes a nice play.
3) Wake Forest students really need someone to talk to them about acting like they belong at the big boys table. Good God. They're a legit national championship contender (oh, by the way, with the personnel for a back-to-back run if they get it done this year). Stop rushing the court already.
4) We're a final four contender
5) If Scheyer gets it on track offensively, we're a championship contender

Good game from Wake, and a loss I can live with. Our guys took their best game, were down by 13 midway through the second half on their floor, and nearly won it. A great January game. I can only imagine all the teaching points K will have from this game. We'll be a better team because of this game. I bet our guys want Virginia NOW. If we don't dominate UVa, I'll be surprised.

Well said, davekay, and pretty much summarizes my take on the game.

We can easily play coulda/woulda/shoulda on a few plays that might have changed the outcome. It is Wake that dodged the biggest "shoulda" by barely making it to the finish line. If they had lost after having a 12-point lead in the final 6(?) minutes, they would have been awfully disappointed.

Wake almost gave up their lead to UNC in that game, and didn't manage the clock well at the end of our game. That's probably the biggest room for improvement for them.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

I just thought that Nolan was making poor decisions and that cost him court time...It happens.

He'll be better next game.

Teague happened to Nolan. Nolan will adjust.

[geraldsneighbor]

I don't agree with that. I thought we played really well considering the environment we played in. Wake is a really good and a tough team with some major size. I though Duke played well enough to win the game, and they almost did.

Let me clarify my statement. We didn't shoot it well for 35 minutes.

[darkblue2769]

I am really frustrated by the travel call on G at the end there. If they're going to call something, why not call his being knocked to the ground in the first place? Granted, I may just be fishing for something to blame it on, but still.

[calltheobvious]

...do not make further mention of the travel call.

How many of you who are questioning the wisdom of the travel call were upset about the no-call on the contact at the basket between Teague and McClure?

Here's the deal: we're all aboout "let the players to decide the game," except when we we're not. That same penultimate play could occur 100 times with 100 different crews, and it would be ruled a travel 99 times. On the 100th, the calling official would be fired.

Ask yourself this: if the tables and jerseys had been turned, and this game had been in Cameron, what would you have thought about the travel? You'd have been saying, "Yeah, you just can't call a foul in that situation. Correct call."

We had two guys make jumpers with a toe on the arc. We had a 90% ft-shooter miss 2/6. We got virtually no offensive production from two of our starters. We played wretched defense on the final play.

The teams decided this game, and the decision was in line with the run of play.

[FerryFor50]

...do not make further mention of the travel call.

How many of you who are questioning the wisdom of the travel call were upset about the no-call on the contact at the basket between Teague and McClure?

Here's the deal: we're all aboout "let the players to decide the game," except when we we're not. That same penultimate play could occur 100 times with 100 different crews, and it would be ruled a travel 99 times. On the 100th, the calling official would be fired.

Ask yourself this: if the tables and jerseys had been turned, and this game had been in Cameron, what would you have thought about the travel? You'd have been saying, "Yeah, you just can't call a foul in that situation. Correct call."

We had two guys make jumpers with a toe on the arc. We had a 90% ft-shooter miss 2/6. We got virtually no offensive production from two of our starters. We played wretched defense on the final play.

The teams decided this game, and the decision was in line with the run of play.

The contact between Teague and McClure was initiated by Teague. He shouldn't get rewarded for lowering his shoulder into a player.

[geraldsneighbor]

On a positive note, atleast we didn't have 100 hung on us by Providence.(See Syracuse)

[Coballs]

I am really frustrated by the travel call on G at the end there. If they're going to call something, why not call his being knocked to the ground in the first place? Granted, I may just be fishing for something to blame it on, but still.

I agree 100%. I don't know what the rule book states, but my assumption is that the refs made the correct call by the book. That being said, I think that if a player with possession of the ball trips over a player laying on the ground (clearly not in a defensive stance) the call should not be ruled a travel. It makes no sense. If that is the rule, the NCAA should look to change it.

[grossbus]

"Huh? What's with the common dissing of Lance?"

because lance has reverted to playing the way he did as a freshman; running around a lot out of control and out of position. he is not getting passes because he is not in position. he is not getting rebounds for the same reason. his defense is suffering.

[geraldsneighbor]

I agree 100%. I don't know what the rule book states, but my assumption is that the refs made the correct call by the book. That being said, I think that if a player with possession of the ball trips over a player laying on the ground (clearly not in a defensive stance) the call should not be ruled a travel. It makes no sense. If that is the rule, the NCAA should look to change it.

The other thing is I felt it'd be just as easy to call a foul there. G was never established on the floor. I don't know, I guess it is what it is.

[Wildling]

Let me clarify my statement. We didn't shoot it well for 35 minutes.

lol, agreed :)

[DukeDevilDeb]

I agree with all your points except 2. Smith was not ready for a game of this magnitude, at least not tonight. He's our point guard for the future, he'll learn from this game and get better. Paulus missed shots but so did everyone else. I LOVE Paulus' confidence. He had the guts to take shots that Nolan was not prepared to take. You can't make 'em unless you think they're going in. If K continues to give him the chance Paulus will not have a shooting game this poor for the rest of the season, mark my words.

I agree with you CameronBlue. Nolan had a pretty weak game. And anyone who thinks that he should have been given more minutes, take a look at the time when he lazily passed the ball to a Wake player. Greg may not be the fastest defender, but he doesn't make that kind of mistake.

I was surprised by the number of times they raked the ball out of our hands... Kyle and Zoubs seemed especially vulnerable. Zoubs just cannot catch the ball and put it up. Even when he receives a pass on the line and is going to relocate it, he shakes the ball like he's trying to fake someone out.

Only person he usually fakes out is himself! I hate that we lost it, but I thought we had no chance at all... and the comeback was great.

Matthew L. said on the radio just before the final play that K was saying, "No lobs. No lobs..." Seemed to me that everyone was looking up and didn't even contemplate a bounce pass. They made that look so easy!

We'll get them at Cameron! Teague is unbelievable.

[calltheobvious]

The contact between Teague and McClure was initiated by Teague. He shouldn't get rewarded for lowering his shoulder into a player.

Sorry ace, but Teague was taking a direct line to the basket, and McClure took an intersecting line. If we're using rules lingo, McClure did not have 'legal guarding position' on the play. The official would have been validated by the tape had he put Teague on the line there.

[DukeDevilDeb]

I hate to say it but Nolan Smith is not the PG of the present or the future. He's a scoring guard. But he can't be your primary ball handler because he's sloppy with the ball, doesn't make good decisions and he is not a good passer at all.

He can play defense against the opposition PG and he will eventually develop into a bona fide scorer. But he'll never be a PG.

What do you think, folks? Apparently they kept saying that Nolan is a shooting guard, not a point. Where does that leave us when Greg graduates? You cannot ask Scheyer to play defense at his level AND run the point. I suspect he was exhausted.

[geraldsneighbor]

A last observation. Let's be encouraged by the fact that when we were challenged we didn't fold. Last year in a similar type game, we let it get away and lost by 13. Tonight we showed were a hell of a ball club. In 2001 its not like we cruised through the regular season 30-1. As long as a team they learn from it, like the Michigan game, this can be used as a great positive. We ARE a contender.

[geraldsneighbor]

What do you think, folks? Apparently they kept saying that Nolan is a shooting guard, not a point. Where does that leave us when Greg graduates? You cannot ask Scheyer to play defense at his level AND run the point. I suspect he was exhausted.

If your not sold on Nolan, you better get Wall.

[trinity92]

When we were down 11, and Wake was running a scrimmage against us, I felt shot in the gut. As we made the comeback and got it to a 4 point game, I felt like we were playing with house money-- if we somehow pulled out a win, well that would have been a nice surprise, but all was fine with the world. While it stings to have a guy slip free on an inbounds play to win the game, I'm amazingly proud of our guys.

I conclude we're a really good team, and Wake is a great team. I'm not sure we can beat them, but that's honestly not the end of the world, because they're virtually the perfect team to beat Duke-- almost as if someone had looked at our game and said, let's construct the ultimate Duke-Killer. Every weakness we have (size, speed, interior scoring) is perfectly exploited by their strengths. There are very few teams in college ball built like Wake. I'm proud of our guys, and looking forward to the rest of the season.

[roywhite]

Sorry ace, but Teague was taking a direct line to the basket, and McClure took an intersecting line. If we're using rules lingo, McClure did not have 'legal guarding position' on the play. The official would have been validated by the tape had he put Teague on the line there.

The replay confirmed (to me at least) that "no call" was correct. One call I didn't understand was how Henderson did not get the benefit of a "goal tending" call when he shot from about 2 or 3 feet away in the second half and Weaver(?...or another of their bigs) knocked the ball away right at the rim. K didn't like that no-call.

[DukeCO2009]

I needed some time to cool off before I posted. Anyway, a couple things:

1. Scheyer really, really, really needs to step it up--and that doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to start filling up the hoop. More than anything else, he needs to take smarter shots. There were a couple times toward the end of the game where he tried to be the hero and took some really poor threes. Although it ended up not mattering, missing Gerald on that last possession was a truly selfish play. He needs to slow down a bit; if he does, very few teams can give us a good game.

2. I loved seeing Kyle fight through an ugly first half and put the team on his back. That said, his defense on that last play was pretty bad. Not sure why we had so much pressure on the inbounder--it's not like he's going to score from out of bounds. IMO having Kyle shade a bit more toward the basket would have been a better idea. If the inbounder throws it in and gets it right back in the corner area, I think our help D makes sure he doesn't get a good look at the basket. Just my two cents.

3. Gerald. Wow. Don't even think I need to say anything else.

4. Great minutes by Miles and Elliot. Hopefully this positive contribution from the freshmen is something we can build upon.

5. Would like to see Nolan play more aggressively on the offensive end.

6. Nice grit by the team to claw back into the game.

7. I know we limited a great offense to 40% shooting, but our defense wasn't playing with its usual vigor; I think the figure is a bit distorted by the number of jumpers Wake missed. Our guards were consistently beaten off the dribble, and we did an exceptionally bad job picking up their bigs in the paint when their guards penetrated. I'll give credit where credit is due and mention that Wake's perimeter players did a great job attacking the rim, but we didn't play like the transcendently good defensive team we've been touted as.

In any event, the fact that we shot 33% from the field and 18% from downtown and STILL managed to find ourselves in position to win the game should stand as a testament to this team's talent. Folks, we're really, really, REALLY good. We played as bad a game as we have all season and came within a sneeze of beating one of the best teams in the nation. I'll take it.


Oh, and I would HATE to be Virginia this Sunday.

[dukelifer]

What do you think, folks? Apparently they kept saying that Nolan is a shooting guard, not a point. Where does that leave us when Greg graduates? You cannot ask Scheyer to play defense at his level AND run the point. I suspect he was exhausted.
He is in the middle of his SOPHOMORE season! Players do get better. We are now worrying about next year? Wow.

[FerryFor50]

The replay confirmed (to me at least) that "no call" was correct. One call I didn't understand was how Henderson did not get the benefit of a "goal tending" call when he shot from about 2 or 3 feet away in the second half and Weaver(?...or another of their bigs) knocked the ball away right at the rim. K didn't like that no-call.

What amazed me more was how Patrick and Vitale couldn't figure out why K was pissed after that play. Sigh.

[grossbus]

one last comment from me echoing someone earlier...i will be anticipating the rematch with relish.

[dukemsu]

Go find an article on who Dwight Howard attributes his success this year to. I'll give you 3 guess's and the first two don't count ;) Yes apples and oranges comparing NBA and college players, but the point is still valid.

As you say, we're now comparing rank-and-file college bigs to a guy ridiculously talented and driven. Howard would do fine if coached by Muggsy Bogues.

The argument is not valid. If it were, no post player coached by guys who played as guards would ever develop into a solid player, let alone a great one.

[calltheobvious]

The replay confirmed (to me at least) that "no call" was correct. One call I didn't understand was how Henderson did not get the benefit of a "goal tending" call when he shot from about 2 or 3 feet away in the second half and Weaver(?...or another of their bigs) knocked the ball away right at the rim. K didn't like that no-call.

Definitely a bang-banger. Looked like a goaltend to me, too.

[Highlander]

Two points -
1) Travel Call (On slo-mo replay Henderson's foot comes down right on the Wake player's abdomen, then slides off and hits the court. His other foot is way up in the air. He might have been able to come down on his own two feet, but the fact that he only had one leg to stand on (literally) meant when that one went out from under him, he was done.

2) Kudos to Gaudio for his out of bounds call. They knew Duke would switch on every screen and called a play to take advantage of it. Henderson was in perfect position on Johnson until one of their guards started to come free across the perimeter. As soon as G cheated out to cover, Johnson made him pay. It was just a great, great call in that situation, and Johnson executed it perfectly.

Despite our shooting woes and the fact that we never led, we played Wake dead even at their place, and showed we are a legit top 5 team, not just "by default." The game came down to who had the ball last. I figured if we could control Teague and keep Wake in the low 70's scoring wise we'd have a pretty decent chance. We did both of those things and lost by one play.

Now if we could have just held the ball for about 3 more seconds before starting that last drive...

[77devil]

What amazed me more was how Patrick and Vitale couldn't figure out why K was pissed after that play. Sigh.

It's pretty simple. Patrick is senile and Vitale is to busy yapping about something unrelated to the game to pay attention.

[Coballs]

I just arrived home and I have not read any other posts, so if my thoughts are repetitive I apologize. The comeback was gutty and the ending was unfortunate and suspect, but our play prior to the 13 point comeback displayed the major deficiencies that we all knew were present...lack of interior offense AND defense, as well as an inability to handle quick guards. Duke 2008-09 has some obvious strengths...excellent team defense, (streaky) 3 point shooters, and (at least) 2 NBA caliber players. But given our glaring flaws, I do not expect this years version to go much further than the team has gone in the last 4 tournaments. Granted, anything can happen, and I will be greatly surprised and extremely happy if this team goes deep into the tourney. But look at the make-up of the team. Is it that different from other recent Duke teams? My objective non-Duke friends are doubting this teams chances, and unfortunately, they usually know what they're talking about. I think that Duke will rack up lots of W's and probably even beat Wake in the next match-up. But this is clearly not a #1 team, and a national championship is truly unrealistic.

[OldSchool]

Brilliant call by Gaudio on the final inbounds play. Knowing we would switch to keep a man right on Teague, there was a momentary opening after Nolan pointed to G to switch onto Teague and before Nolan could get a body on Johnson, for Johnson to grab the pass and slip to the basket.

Tonight's game proved that our team is mentally very, very tough. That's going to be needed if they want to go far in the postseason.

And don't look now, but the Seminoles are up on Carolina with 8:23 to go.

[Jumbo]

I hate to say it but Nolan Smith is not the PG of the present or the future. He's a scoring guard. But he can't be your primary ball handler because he's sloppy with the ball, doesn't make good decisions and he is not a good passer at all.

He can play defense against the opposition PG and he will eventually develop into a bona fide scorer. But he'll never be a PG.

Duke's offense does not require a true point. Smith is growing into the position, which is fine. (Heck, Will Avery was a scoring guard and Duke had a pretty good season when he was a sophomore, running the show.) You'll notice that down the stretch, Scheyer was the primary ball-handler and Smith started off the ball. He initiated the offense and then we just rolled into the subsequent options. I'm fine with that.

[Highlander]

I needed some time to cool off before I posted. Anyway, a couple things:

1. Scheyer really, really, really needs to step it up--and that doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to start filling up the hoop. More than anything else, he needs to take smarter shots. There were a couple times toward the end of the game where he tried to be the hero and took some really poor threes. Although it ended up not mattering, missing Gerald on that last possession was a truly selfish play. He needs to slow down a bit; if he does, very few teams can give us a good game.

2. I loved seeing Kyle fight through an ugly first half and put the team on his back. That said, his defense on that last play was pretty bad. Not sure why we had so much pressure on the inbounder--it's not like he's going to score from out of bounds. IMO having Kyle shade a bit more toward the basket would have been a better idea. If the inbounder throws it in and gets it right back in the corner area, I think our help D makes sure he doesn't get a good look at the basket. Just my two cents.
.

Re Scheyer's last shot, I completely disagree. The guy had a wide open look from 3 point land after he faked out his defender. G was wide open, but so was Jon. It was a good shot that didn't go in.

As for the inbounds play, I saw it was Gerald who cheated off his man to help on the cutter, and his man made him pay. Kyle's job was to make it difficult for the inbounder to make an easy pass. Ask Rick Pitino if he thinks that's important :)

I agree with every other point you made in your message btw.

[Newton_14]

On the whole, Wake played really well at both ends of the floor, Duke had a really off night shooting, and a couple of key defensive breakdowns, yet we were a very bad travel call away from overtime. In a very hostile environment, against in my humble opinion, the most talented team in college hoops.

Breakdown:

-Duke came out very passive at the start and handed Wake a nice bowl full of confidence. That was really my only major beef with the game. I was so hoping to see the same intensity as the start of the Purdue game, but such is life.

-Wake got stellar play from their guards and wings, but Duke was able to limit Teague from his normal stardom, and pretty much shut down McFarland

-Duke made alot of mental mistakes that hurt but yet hung in there and made a lot of tough plays. Against very very athletic, long, and strong guys.

-During the comeback from 13 down, Duke got 4 stops in a row and could not convert on the offensive end. And that hurt. Yet, they still came all the way back to even. Impressive.

-Offensively, Kyle and Gerald were great, and everyone else struggled, yet there was Jon with a great look from 3 to take the lead with 17 seconds left. As bad as it was on offense our guys never wilted, never quit, fought like heck on the boards and played really, a great last 8 minutes in this game.

-So while I hate losing, I knew they would not win every game the rest of the way, and losing to Wake on a buzzer beater is nothing to be ashamed about. And it could have just as easily been a win inspite of all the things that did not go well. And my view of the last play was that Gerald released Johnson and protected the perimeter and it appeared Nolan was to pick Johnson up while protecting that area. It looked like Nolan got confused and missed the assignment. Just my take.

-And my view of that travel call I can't really put in print. That was a really bad call. Landing on a player lying on the floor is what caused Gerald to fall. He did not land on the floor and then slip. So if you don't have the gonads to call a foul then at least call a held ball. That sucked.

So there are 3 games left with Wake and unx and two of those three are in Cameron. This team has a lot of upside and room for growth, especially offensively. I think there is much to look forward to the rest of the way.

This team is going to do great things before all is said and done... I just have that feeling.

[dukelifer]

I conclude we're a really good team, and Wake is a great team. I'm not sure we can beat them, but that's honestly not the end of the world, because they're virtually the perfect team to beat Duke-- almost as if someone had looked at our game and said, let's construct the ultimate Duke-Killer. Every weakness we have (size, speed, interior scoring) is perfectly exploited by their strengths. There are very few teams in college ball built like Wake. I'm proud of our guys, and looking forward to the rest of the season.

I like Wake - but I am not convinced they are a great team- at least not yet. While they have three legit NBA first rounders, I think they are vulnerable to a lesser foe. I think they get way up for the big games and lets face it- they had a week to prepare for both the UNC and Duke games at home. But you are right the Wake is a tough match up for Duke. Duke defended them well in stretches and kept the game within reach. But post season play is all about the last 3 minutes. Duke has two outstanding players who can create in the last two minutes. That should give them a lot of chances to win close games.

[CameronCrazy'11]

Zero inside presence? We outrebounded one of the biggest teams in the country on their own floor.

[geraldsneighbor]

We might not have a dominant inside "scoring presence" but Singler is a player.

[Wildling]

Zero inside presence? We outrebounded one of the biggest teams in the country on their own floor.

Point taken. When I say inside presence, I am talking about our 5 spot.

[buddy]

Wake kept us in the game by shooting 67% from the foul line. I hate to say it, but we need more than two players to score from the field in the second half to win big games. Nolan did look scared. Everybody else seemed content to let G and Kyle take care of business on the offensive end. (At times I thought G was too selfish, but in his defense, no one other than Kyle would/could take or make a shot.) Jon tried to take the shot, but his shooting percentage in his last six games is somewhere around 25%. Either he is too tired from having to play physical defense, or there is a mechanical problem with his shot, but if he can't step it up, we will be another quick out in the Tournament.

And I agree with the previous comments about Zoubek. He has made great strides this year, but he continues to make himself 6' tall instead of 7' tall.

[jipops]

Wake has an NBA frontline in terms of talent and size and we still out-rebounded them, amazing! McClure had 12! Once I switched over to Lost I was done being down about this game.



4) Coach K coached a really good game. He tried tons of combinations, searching for something. The defensive game plan was sound. We tried three different guys at point guard. Miles Plumlee got solid PT with Zoubek struggling. Elliot Williams got a shot to show what he could do. We adjusted offensively in the second half and got G and Kyle going.


From what I saw the combinations looked very similar to what we've been running most of the season. Maybe you saw something else I didn't? -which is certainly possible. The 2nd half offense seem to be comprised completely of a two-man game between Henderson and Singler. It wasn't just that they were the only ones scoring, but they were also about the only ones even touching the ball. One drives baseline and kicks, while the other shoots. It wasn't always pretty but it did work out ok as Wake was missing all their ft's.

Defensively I thought we did a terrific job on Teague. If he were able to go off, we wouldn't have a had a chance at all. I was very much hoping for a good showing offensively from Nolan Smith tonight, felt he would have been key but oh well. Scheyer's shot is struggling enormously right now. Maybe it has something to do with the playmaking duties but I think his confidence is really dented right now. He's not expecting it to go in as he shoots.

So we got offense from only 2 guys tonight (ok Jon had an ugly 13) and still almost pulled this one out on the road. Not one TV analyst I heard picked Duke in this one and we almost pulled it out anyways. Certainly a lot to be proud of here.

[geraldsneighbor]

Wake has an NBA frontline in terms of talent and size and we still out-rebounded them, amazing! McClure had 12! Once I switched over to Lost I was done being down about this game.



From what I saw the combinations looked very similar to what we've been running most of the season. Maybe you saw something else I didn't? -which is certainly possible. The 2nd half offense seem to be comprised completely of a two-man game between Henderson and Singler. It wasn't just that they were the only ones scoring, but they were also about the only ones even touching the ball. One drives baseline and kicks, while the other shoots. It wasn't always pretty but it did work out ok as Wake was missing all their ft's.

Defensively I thought we did a terrific job on Teague. If he were able to go off, we wouldn't have a had a chance at all. I was very much hoping for a good showing from offensively Nolan Smith tonight, felt he would have been key but oh well. Scheyer's shot is struggling enormously right now. Maybe it has something to do with the playmaking duties but I think his confidence is really dented right now. He's not expecting it to go in as he shoots.

So we got offense from only 2 guys tonight (ok Jon had an ugly 13) and still almost pulled this one out on the road. Not one TV analyst I heard picked Duke in this one and we almost pulled it out anyways. Certainly a lot to be proud of here.


Alot of match-ups didn't include Paulus or Smith which was new.

[delfrio]

Lastly, can we please get rid of Mike Patrick!!!!!! He never seems to get the players' names right and makes all kinds of stupid and incorrect comments. How hard is it to tell the difference between Singler and Scheyer when you're sitting court side?

Um, how about the difference between Elliot and Miles? Patrick confused them, and I kind of think they look a bit different.

Also, on another point, I thought Lance played decently. Not on the offensive end where we could have used him, but he was involved in a number of good defensive plays. He is probably stuck playing out of position as Z's backup when he should be playing the 4 more.

In other news, agreed about the hard fought game, travel call, etc. etc.

[Coballs]

Don't know if this was addressed earlier, but Wake students/fans are a bunch of idiots for storming the court. They're the number 4 team in the country. But I suppose a regular season W over Duke is about the most that the Wake fans can expect from their team.

[tele]

I have to say, it looked like the ref blew the traveling call on G. It should have either been a no call, or a foul on wake. There were actually two fouls on wake on the play, the wake player who pushed henderson, and the wake player on the floor who tripped him and caused him to fall to the floor.

As others have said it is only a travel if the player with the ball, falls to the floor with the ball on his own, not if he is pushed or tripped. The ref probably didn't want to make a foul call on the push, they'd been letting wake get away with those the whole game, especially in the first half. And the ref probably couldn't bring himself to call a foul on a player lying on his stomach on the floor at that point of the game, so wake definitely got some home cookin there. The best call would have been a foul on the wake player on floor for undercutting henderson on the rebound, or even a no call. Duke should have either shot free throws or gone to overtime.

Those are tough foul calls to make against the home team at the end of a close ballgame, with the game on the line. But if the ref didn't want to make the tough calls then he shouldn't have blown his whistle. Wasn't this the same ref that swallowed his whistle on the very next play when the wake again pushed off get free and scored the winning basket? So, just some quick math, that would be three missed foul calls on wake, and one wrong traveling call on duke in the last 3 seconds of the game. This makes it kind of hard to win a close ball game on the road.

Looks like the refs are still more worried about being perceived as making any calls favoring Duke than in calling the game correctly. I could see maybe one missed call, or a no call at the end of the game, but four in 3 seconds? That is inexcusable, and it took the game away from Duke. If the ref makes one of the two foul calls on Henderon's rebound play, Duke shoots free throws for the lead. If the ref doesn't make the wrong travel call against Duke you have overtime. And if the ref calls the push off against wake on the inbounds, Duke again shoots free throws for the win. Duke players played really hard and came back to have a chance to win, it is a shame to have that effort frustrated because the ref wouldn't make the right call.

[Jumbo]

1. Scheyer really, really, really needs to step it up--and that doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to start filling up the hoop. More than anything else, he needs to take smarter shots. There were a couple times toward the end of the game where he tried to be the hero and took some really poor threes. Although it ended up not mattering, missing Gerald on that last possession was a truly selfish play. He needs to slow down a bit; if he does, very few teams can give us a good game.
Wow, I don't think that's fair at all. The replay of that last possession was more evidence of the fact that Patrick and Vitale have lost it. They kept talking about how Henderson was wide open. That was while Scheyer was in the middle of his pump fake and his head was pointed out toward half-court at that point. By the time he'd taken his dribble to avoid the defender, Wake had recovered to pick up Henderson. Meanwhile, Scheyer was wide open. I don't think he was being "selfish" (when has he ever played selfishly?) or trying to "be the hero." He took an open shot.



5. Would like to see Nolan play more aggressively on the offensive end.
More jump shots? More drives? Both? I'd like to see him play a bit smarter. Aggressively smart. Does that work?

[Jumbo]

one last comment from me echoing someone earlier...i will be anticipating the rematch with relish.

And I will choose mustard.

[DU82]

Don't know if this was addressed earlier, but Wake students/fans are a bunch of idiots for storming the court. They're the number 4 team in the country. But I suppose a regular season W over Duke is about the most that the Wake fans can expect from their team.

Could we also give this one a rest. Wake won on a last second shot against the number one team in the country. I remember a game three years ago when we rushed the court after a last second shot beat a so-so conference team.

From TV, it appeared that they waited until after our guys cleared the court before heading out there. Give these 18-22 year olds a chance to celebrate.

[Jumbo]

I just arrived home and I have not read any other posts, so if my thoughts are repetitive I apologize. The comeback was gutty and the ending was unfortunate and suspect, but our play prior to the 13 point comeback displayed the major deficiencies that we all knew were present...lack of interior offense AND defense, as well as an inability to handle quick guards. Duke 2008-09 has some obvious strengths...excellent team defense, (streaky) 3 point shooters, and (at least) 2 NBA caliber players. But given our glaring flaws, I do not expect this years version to go much further than the team has gone in the last 4 tournaments. Granted, anything can happen, and I will be greatly surprised and extremely happy if this team goes deep into the tourney. But look at the make-up of the team. Is it that different from other recent Duke teams? My objective non-Duke friends are doubting this teams chances, and unfortunately, they usually know what they're talking about. I think that Duke will rack up lots of W's and probably even beat Wake in the next match-up. But this is clearly not a #1 team, and a national championship is truly unrealistic.

Where do I start with these flawed points? Duke has such a glaring weakness on the interior ... that it outrebounded an enormous Wake team tonight.
Duke "can't hadle quick guards" ... yet held Teague to 11 points on 4-14 shooting.
This team is totally different from the last couple of years. It is older, stronger, more mature and more talented.

[Lord Ash]

*sigh*

Well... I would much rather have lost that by 7 in OT than like that!:)

That was a bit heartbreaking, but only a bit; it didn't feel like "our game" at all.

I wish Jon would come back... he is such a capable player, the last seven games have hurt. The only good news is I doubt he will continue to play poorly for the rest of the year, and I'd rather have him playing well at the end than in the middle.

I really thought Greg played decent D. Physically he was a bit outmatched, and no one could really stop Teague, but I thought Greg did okay.

Really disappointed that no one stepped up in the second except Gerald and Kyle. That was pretty inexcusable... in the game of basketball you need to have the TEAM step up... you can't lay it all on the shoulders of two guys, that just isn't fair.

If it had been me at the end, I would have commanded the guys not to shoot until there was maybe 3 seconds left... when Gerald hit it with 9 remaining you could just feel that Wake would score. Too much time; I think it would have been better to hold it for a last second for-the-win 3... miss, and Wake BARELY escapes, make it and big win.

Oh well. Shame to see us play as ragged as we did, even though Wake looked really, really good for the first 7/8s of the game. Come back to us, Jon and Greg!

[DukeCO2009]

Wow, I don't think that's fair at all. The replay of that last possession was more evidence of the fact that Patrick and Vitale have lost it. They kept talking about how Henderson was wide open. That was while Scheyer was in the middle of his pump fake and his head was pointed out toward half-court at that point. By the time he'd taken his dribble to avoid the defender, Wake had recovered to pick up Henderson. Meanwhile, Scheyer was wide open. I don't think he was being "selfish" (when has he ever played selfishly?) or trying to "be the hero." He took an open shot.

OK, selfish was a strong word. I do think Henderson was wide open, though. He was, however, trying to be the hero. No question about it. I'd have to rewatch the game to tell you exactly when they occurred, but he took really poor threes at least twice. One in particular was when we were down five or so and he came off a screen on the left wing. He was as covered as he could be, but he forced the shot anyway. I'm all for having a shooter's mentality and forgetting about the last shot, but if you haven't seen the ball go through in while, the idea is generally to take easier shots--especially during a crucial situation for your team. Just my two cents.



More jump shots? More drives? Both? I'd like to see him play a bit smarter. Aggressively smart. Does that work?

All of the above. More jumpers (he was WIDE open toward the end at the top of the key), more drives, and smarter basketball. Patrick mentioned that he only had two more assists than turnovers coming into tonight. That's just not getting it done. I don't expect 8 dimes a game out of him, just that he take care of the ball.

[FerryFor50]

Where do I start with these flawed points? Duke has such a glaring weakness on the interior ... that it outrebounded an enormous Wake team tonight.
Duke "can't hadle quick guards" ... yet held Teague to 11 points on 4-14 shooting.
This team is totally different from the last couple of years. It is older, stronger, more mature and more talented.

I dunno... Teague and Smith penetrated at will at times... scoring doesn't tell the whole story.

They also got some nice assists off that penetration when Duke's bigs had to come over to help after the guards got beat off the dribble.

[BlueintheFace]

Look everybody... 2 of our starters played poor to average tonight and we lost on a last second shot... on the road ... to a Final Four Caliber team... that had a week to prepare for us... coming off a loss.

AND, we didn't get "abused" inside. Those of you who say that we were getting killed down low 1) don't understand the roles of players on this team and 2) really struggle to process basketball games they watch. We just OUT-REBOUNDED Wake Forest and only really gave up big plays to their frontcourt in transition and on the occasional teague drive and dish.

[77devil]

Zero inside presence? We outrebounded one of the biggest teams in the country on their own floor.

Not because of the play from the 5 spot. Stat line for the Zoo/Lance/Miles 33 MIN, 1-5 FG, 0-0 FT,4 REB, 1 Assist, 2 TO, 6 PF. Maybe not zero but not nearly adequate.

[BlueintheFace]

Not because of the play from the 5 spot. Stat line for the Zoo/Lance/Miles 33 MIN, 1-5 FG, 0-0 FT,4 REB, 1 Assist, 2 TO, 6 PF. Maybe not zero but not nearly adequate.

Yah, because it is the means that matter in basketball. Not the ends... brilliant argument

[Jumbo]

If it had been me at the end, I would have commanded the guys not to shoot until there was maybe 3 seconds left... when Gerald hit it with 9 remaining you could just feel that Wake would score. Too much time; I think it would have been better to hold it for a last second for-the-win 3... miss, and Wake BARELY escapes, make it and big win.

I'm glad you're just posting here and not coaching, then. ;) Seriously, when you're down 2, you want to get a good shot off, and you want to get it off quickly. You need time to foul if you miss. You have to trust your D. And guess what? Duke got the stop. Whatever you think of the rebound and subsequent travel by Henderson, Duke got a stop to lead to that situation.

[jipops]

OK, selfish was a strong word. I do think Henderson was wide open, though. He was, however, trying to be the hero. No question about it. I'd have to rewatch the game to tell you exactly when they occurred, but he took really poor threes at least twice. One in particular was when we were down five or so and he came off a screen on the left wing. He was as covered as he could be, but he forced the shot anyway. I'm all for having a shooter's mentality and forgetting about the last shot, but if you haven't seen the ball go through in while, the idea is generally to take easier shots--especially during a crucial situation for your team. Just my two cents.




All of the above. More jumpers (he was WIDE open toward the end at the top of the key), more drives, and smarter basketball. Patrick mentioned that he only had two more assists than turnovers coming into tonight. That's just not getting it done. I don't expect 8 dimes a game out of him, just that he take care of the ball.

Jon was wide open, he wasn't trying to be a "hero". He got a ton of space off the bounce and had a good look, it just didn't go down. I guarantee K will always urge Jon to take that shot, if it hasn't been falling all game. Again, it was a great look, it just didn't go down.

I did have one frustrated moment late in the one you referenced where Nolan passed up an open 3 (which was as open as the shot Scheyer took for which you are criticizing him for). He definitely didn't play with confidence in this one.

[EarlJam]

I have not read one post in this thread, as I am just getting in from watching the game; so forgive me if I repeat anything. I will go back and read previous post. But my initial reaction, for what it is worth:

BEST LOSS SINCE DUKE/WAKE '92.

Wow. Duke was SO ripe for a loss. Coming off a big win. Young team with #1 status for first time. Wake reeling over a recent loss.

STILL, despite being down 11 or so for most of the second half, we show outstanding tenacity, coming back to tie it on a jumper by a player who is very quickly, if not has already, established himself as, "the man." Of course, I'm talking about Henderson.

Like '92, we blew the last play with 2.5 or 2.6 seconds left.

How many times will that last play be studied? I don't know. But what I DO know is that lessons WILL be learned. Who knows, if it's like '92, we'll end up in a key NCAA Tourney game in the same situation and learn from the mistake - execute better.

Guys, gals, this was a GOOD loss for this team. I think Duke grew up tremendously tonight; and I think the next month+ will show it.

Remember, last year around this time we peaked, then fell flat on our face.

Not this time.

We showed tonight that we could go into the most hostile of environments, overcome a big deficet (sp), and fight 'til the very end.

The one breakdown at the very end? I promise it won't happen again.

Good things to come fellow Duke fans. Very Good things to come.

I'm proud of the team. Big time.

-EarlJam, Duke basketball watcher and student since 1978.

[Ian]

Duke's offense does not require a true point. Smith is growing into the position, which is fine. (Heck, Will Avery was a scoring guard and Duke had a pretty good season when he was a sophomore, running the show.) You'll notice that down the stretch, Scheyer was the primary ball-handler and Smith started off the ball. He initiated the offense and then we just rolled into the subsequent options. I'm fine with that.

Of course it doesn't "require" a point guard. But it's better with one.

The Duke teams that gone the furthest in the tourney all tended to have a traditional PG. Amaker, Snyder, Hurley, Duhon. That's 8 of the 10 FF and all 3 Titles.

The only exceptions are 94, when Grant Hill was so good he made up for everything, and 99 with Avery. And even in 99 you can make the argument that Avery's meltdown in the title game is why the team ultimately underachieved.

So no, not having a true PG doesn't cripple us, but it will keep us from the ultimate prize.

[DukeCO2009]

Look everybody... 2 of our starters played poor to average tonight and we lost on a last second shot... on the road ... to a Final Four Caliber team... that had a week to prepare for us... coming off a loss.

AND, we didn't get "abused" inside. Those of you who say that we were getting killed down low 1) don't understand the roles of players on this team and 2) really struggle to process basketball games they watch. We just OUT-REBOUNDED Wake Forest and only really gave up big plays to their frontcourt in transition and on the occasional teague drive and dish.

There's a difference between having an inside presence and simply outrebounding a team. This much is fairly obvious, or at least I thought it was. I'm struggling to think of a time we dumped the ball into the post and game away with points from a big man. We don't get dominated by other teams' bigs, but our frontcourt contributes very little to our own offense. Not sure how you can argue this.

[Jumbo]

I dunno... Teague and Smith penetrated at will at times... scoring doesn't tell the whole story.

They also got some nice assists off that penetration when Duke's bigs had to come over to help after the guards got beat off the dribble.

True, but in the end, Duke only gave up 70 points. Paulus had trouble on D and while I thought Scheyer did a really nice job on Teague, he struggled a bit with Ish Smith (though, to be fair, it's tough to ask a 6'5" SG like Scheyer to cover Smith, who is probably closer to 5'9" than 6'0"). But if you remember last year, Duke got destroyed by Wake's quickness off the dribble. That definitely wasn't the case tonight.

[Jumbo]

Not because of the play from the 5 spot. Stat line for the Zoo/Lance/Miles 33 MIN, 1-5 FG, 0-0 FT,4 REB, 1 Assist, 2 TO, 6 PF. Maybe not zero but not nearly adequate.

Did you ever think they might have done a good job of putting a body on somoene down low, taking up space and allowing someone else to come collect the rebound? Just saying ...

[RepoMan]

Man. I hate watching games on dvr. trying to avoid eye contact with the general public for fear i'll get tipped off to the result. Fearing to catch an unintentional view of a stray tv. etc.

That said, just finished the game and:

1. This is a tough team that gave 100% effort. You really can't ask for more.

2. Singler, Henderson, and a not-so-distant McClure really played their guts out.

3. Seriously, WTF with the "travel." And, how come the announcers didn't even discuss it. Oh, right, Dickie V and pal. I'd have loved to have heard the Knight analysis.

4. To win the big games at year-end, we need Scheyer to improve his 3 point shooting. Loved that he took the open shot for the lead near game end.

5. Zoubs gets blocked an amazing amount. Just not super strong, but, he played hard.

6. Loved that we got contributions from everyone.

7. Losing by 2 on last second shot to #4 team in country on the road is not bad. We will learn alot

[FerryFor50]

True, but in the end, Duke only gave up 70 points. Paulus had trouble on D and while I thought Scheyer did a really nice job on Teague, he struggled a bit with Ish Smith (though, to be fair, it's tough to ask a 6'5" SG like Scheyer to cover Smith, who is probably closer to 5'9" than 6'0"). But if you remember last year, Duke got destroyed by Wake's quickness off the dribble. That definitely wasn't the case tonight.

Very true.

I think we did best with McClure on Teague, though. He's quick as them, and has height to bother the smaller guards.

But I think they still were too quick for us for the most part... which is why people say we have trouble with quick guards. But on the same token, MOST teams have trouble with quick guards. Heck, UNC has trouble with quick guards. :D

[bird]

This thread focuses too much on what Duke did not do, rather on what Wake did.

I think this is a chronic phenominon at all levels of sport. Spectators perceive too much up and down in the quality of play of the team they root for. I would argue that most of the perceived up and down is due to the ups and downs in the quality of the opposition.

Wake is just dang good. Their Smith, a usual suspect link, stepped up. They have size, skills, raw talent, great guard play. Decision making is weak at times, but they pulled off the in bounds play beautifully. I was critical of both their Smith and their decision making in the pregame thread, and was proven wrong on both.

[geraldsneighbor]

Is it me or does McClure play bigger then Zoubs. Hell, G at 6-4 already does.

[Jumbo]

Of course it doesn't "require" a point guard. But it's better with one.

The Duke teams that gone the furthest in the tourney all tended to have a traditional PG. Amaker, Snyder, Hurley, Duhon. That's 8 of the 10 FF and all 3 Titles.

The only exceptions are 94, when Grant Hill was so good he made up for everything, and 99 with Avery. And even in 99 you can make the argument that Avery's meltdown in the title game is why the team ultimately underachieved.

So no, not having a true PG doesn't cripple us, but it will keep us from the ultimate prize.

I wish you would quite harping on this. And it's awfully hard to make your argument and then just write off 1994 and 1999.

[DukeCO2009]

Jon was wide open, he wasn't trying to be a "hero". He got a ton of space off the bounce and had a good look, it just didn't go down. I guarantee K will always urge Jon to take that shot, if it hasn't been falling all game. Again, it was a great look, it just didn't go down.

I did have one frustrated moment late in the one you referenced where Nolan passed up an open 3 (which was as open as the shot Scheyer took for which you are criticizing him for). He definitely didn't play with confidence in this one.

Fair enough. I'll give Jon that last shot, but IMO quicker thinking would have gotten Gerald a dunk. I think Jon certainly took a few ill-advised shots, though, one of which I referenced in the post you quoted.

[jipops]

True, but in the end, Duke only gave up 70 points. Paulus had trouble on D and while I thought Scheyer did a really nice job on Teague, he struggled a bit with Ish Smith (though, to be fair, it's tough to ask a 6'5" SG like Scheyer to cover Smith, who is probably closer to 5'9" than 6'0"). But if you remember last year, Duke got destroyed by Wake's quickness off the dribble. That definitely wasn't the case tonight.

Scheyer seemed give Ish a lot of room, probably to be available for help elsewhere. I think giving Ish room to drive the paint was just an expected tradeoff (i.e. better him than Teague). Wake also did a great job spreading the floor to their credit.

[FerryFor50]

Fair enough. I'll give Jon that last shot, but IMO quicker thinking would have gotten Gerald a dunk. I think Jon certainly took a few ill-advised shots, though, one of which I referenced in the post you quoted.

Yea, then Gerald gets a dunk, and Wake has even more time to run clock and hold for the last shot.

Not that the result would have been different.. .but I'd rather a team scramble for a shot than have time to set up. The last sequence is great evidence of that.

Wake scrambles for shot = Duke gets stop, but robbed on "travel"
Wake sets play = Gaudio makes a great play call for the win

[jipops]

Fair enough. I'll give Jon that last shot, but IMO quicker thinking would have gotten Gerald a dunk. I think Jon certainly took a few ill-advised shots, though, one of which I referenced in the post you quoted.

That quicker thinking is a pretty high expectation but you're entitled to your opinion. But since we're talking about quick thinking, how about Jon's pretty dish to Plumlee?

[Jumbo]

Very true.

I think we did best with McClure on Teague, though. He's quick as them, and has height to bother the smaller guards.

But I think they still were too quick for us for the most part... which is why people say we have trouble with quick guards. But on the same token, MOST teams have trouble with quick guards. Heck, UNC has trouble with quick guards. :D

I think we did our best with a smaller lineup and McClure in the post -- Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-McClure-Singler. I'll get to it when I post the plus/minus stuff, but I wish we'd gone to that group a little earlier. We were determined to stay big, which is understandable against Wake's size. But compensating with quickness is always a strong option. It worked tonight.

[Coballs]

Where do I start with these flawed points? Duke has such a glaring weakness on the interior ... that it outrebounded an enormous Wake team tonight.
Duke "can't hadle quick guards" ... yet held Teague to 11 points on 4-14 shooting.
This team is totally different from the last couple of years. It is older, stronger, more mature and more talented.

Jumbo- I guess this is where you and I will have to disagree. Although statistically we outrebounded Wake, I never felt like we owned the interior. Wake had loads of easy baskets inside, Duke had few. When ESPN cut to commercial midway through the second half their montage was Wake dunking over and over again (and most were not on breakaways). Here are Wake's front court stats (Aminu-Johnson-MacFarland) 37 points, 28 rebounds, 8 blocks. And Duke's (Zoubek, Singler, LT, Plum, McClure) 24 points, 26 rebounds, 3 blocks. If Duke wasn't outplayed on the interior, AND was able to handle Teague and Smith, then where was this game lost?

[BlueintheFace]

There's a difference between having an inside presence and simply outrebounding a team. This much is fairly obvious, or at least I thought it was. I'm struggling to think of a time we dumped the ball into the post and game away with points from a big man. We don't get dominated by other teams' bigs, but our frontcourt contributes very little to our own offense. Not sure how you can argue this.

Our bigs are asked to rebound, play defense, and occasionally score. Not much, just occasionally for balance. Kyle, G, and Jon are our main scorers, and Nolan and Greg need to handle the ball and hit the three when open. Dave plays D, E-will provides rebounding and an occassional spark offensively. These are the (simplified) roles for our team. Within these roles, our bigs played decently. I agree they didn't play great, but they certainly weren't the reason we lost. The real latitude in performance from game to game comes from a) poor collective effort, b) poor ball handling by the pg's, or 3) let downs from Jon, G, and Kyle.

Today the culprits were Jon by a small margin and PG ball handling by a small margin. Those small margins were obviously not made up for by above average play from the bigs, so we lost a tough game by two.

Maybe you are arguing that the roles I laid out exemplify a poor philosophy for this team. If that is the case, then how would you alter the roles? Perhaps you are rooting for a team you want to see next year, rather than the one we have...

[Ian]

I wish you would quite harping on this. And it's awfully hard to make your argument and then just write off 1994 and 1999.

Of course, you're right, what was I thinking. Duke doesn't need PGs, Coach K should obvious stop recruiting PGs altogether. Since his offense "doesn't require them".

[FerryFor50]

I think we did our best with a smaller lineup and McClure in the post -- Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-McClure-Singler. I'll get to it when I post the plus/minus stuff, but I wish we'd gone to that group a little earlier. We were determined to stay big, which is understandable against Wake's size. But compensating with quickness is always a strong option. It worked tonight.

Agreed. We let Wake's size dictate how we were going to play - always a mistake.

[FerryFor50]

Jumbo- I guess this is where you and I will have to disagree. Although statistically we outrebounded Wake, I never felt like we owned the interior. Wake had loads of easy baskets inside, Duke had few. When ESPN cut to commercial midway through the second half their montage was Wake dunking over and over again (and most were not on breakaways). Here are Wake's front court stats (Aminu-Johnson-MacFarland) 37 points, 28 rebounds, 8 blocks. And Duke's (Zoubek, Singler, LT, Plum, McClure) 24 points, 26 rebounds, 3 blocks. If Duke wasn't outplayed on the interior, AND was able to handle Teague and Smith, then where was this game lost?

Game was lost on 33% shooting and an awful travel call negating a valiant comeback. It wasn't lost inside, or on the boards. It was two teams with different strengths playing to a near draw.

[jv001]

This was a match up nightmare for Duke and we still almost pulled out the win. Wake is a potential Final Four team and has now beaten Duke and unc. Once again our 3 point shooting let us down. The point guard play was less than desired(putting it politely). Nolan looked lost on offense by throwing the ball away. Greg just could not keep up with Wake's quick guards. Jon continues to shoot the ball poorly. Zoubs and Lance were blocked inside way too many times. I have to agree that Lance is not bringing much to the court right now. Maybe more mins for Plumlee. Williams still looks like a freshman. Positives: Kyle and Gerald are warriors both on offense and defense. Jon is playing well on defense and handles the ball best of our 3 guards. Would like to see Jon at point and Nolan at #2 guard. It's possible because we run an offense that will allow that. I'm not too disappointed because we will get better. Go Duke!

[Jumbo]

Jumbo- I guess this is where you and I will have to disagree. Although statistically we outrebounded Wake, I never felt like we owned the interior. Wake had loads of easy baskets inside, Duke had few. When ESPN cut to commercial midway through the second half their montage was Wake dunking over and over again (and most were not on breakaways). Here are Wake's front court stats (Aminu-Johnson-MacFarland) 37 points, 28 rebounds, 8 blocks. And Duke's (Zoubek, Singler, LT, Plum, McClure) 24 points, 26 rebounds, 3 blocks. If Duke wasn't outplayed on the interior, AND was able to handle Teague and Smith, then where was this game lost?

Duke lost by two points. So, try this thought experiment: Duke lost on an inbound play. The game was tied at that point. Everything that happened before it was irrelevant. Or, put another way, if Duke was outplayed on the interior and couldn't handle Wake's quick guards, how was the game tied with 3 seconds left?

[BlueintheFace]

Jumbo- I guess this is where you and I will have to disagree. Although statistically we outrebounded Wake, I never felt like we owned the interior. Wake had loads of easy baskets inside, Duke had few. When ESPN cut to commercial midway through the second half their montage was Wake dunking over and over again (and most were not on breakaways). Here are Wake's front court stats (Aminu-Johnson-MacFarland) 37 points, 28 rebounds, 8 blocks. And Duke's (Zoubek, Singler, LT, Plum, McClure) 24 points, 26 rebounds, 3 blocks. If Duke wasn't outplayed on the interior, AND was able to handle Teague and Smith, then where was this game lost?

1) The dunks WERE mostly on the break. when they weren't, they were a result of a big man (correctly) rotating to help after a guard got by his man.

2) The game was lost by just TWO points, so it is possible that Duke had small let downs here and there that led to a marginally worse performance... which is enough when you lose on a last second shot.

IMO, the letdown was a little with Nolan... a bit more with Jon... and mostly with the mentality and lack of aggressiveness in the first half.

[Ian]

Agreed. We let Wake's size dictate how we were going to play - always a mistake.

I think Coach K did the right thing. Had he gone to the small lineup earlier, all of them would have been in foul trouble and may not be around for the end.

He opted to steal minutes with his big lineup so he can have the small lineup in there for the stretch run.

[CameronCrazy'11]

Jumbo- I guess this is where you and I will have to disagree. Although statistically we outrebounded Wake, I never felt like we owned the interior. Wake had loads of easy baskets inside, Duke had few. When ESPN cut to commercial midway through the second half their montage was Wake dunking over and over again (and most were not on breakaways). Here are Wake's front court stats (Aminu-Johnson-MacFarland) 37 points, 28 rebounds, 8 blocks. And Duke's (Zoubek, Singler, LT, Plum, McClure) 24 points, 26 rebounds, 3 blocks. If Duke wasn't outplayed on the interior, AND was able to handle Teague and Smith, then where was this game lost?

Except that Aminu plays the 3 for wake, alongside Johnson and McFarland. You're comparing their 3-5 to our 4-5. If you add in Duke's 3, Gerald Henderson, then this isn't true.

[feldspar]

Well, at least all the poo-pooing of the officials is now being followed by the "it is what it is" sentiment.

It's a step in the right direction, I guess.

[DukeCO2009]

Maybe you are arguing that the roles I laid out exemplify a poor philosophy for this team. If that is the case, then how would you alter the roles? Perhaps you are rooting for a team you want to see next year, rather than the one we have...

I think if we can get 15 points out of LT, Zoubek, and Plumlee combined, we're a different team. That's not asking much at all, nor does it beg for K to run a different offense. Also, I think it's certainly well within the players' capabilities to give us a handful of points each on average. Not saying we should hit the post on every possession, nor am I arguing that are bigs played poorly because they weren't showing us sick drop-step spin moves all game. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

[Jumbo]

Of course, you're right, what was I thinking. Duke doesn't need PGs, Coach K should obvious stop recruiting PGs altogether. Since his offense "doesn't require them".

What a lovely, intellectually honest, constructive post. Glad you're interested in having a conversation.

Let's try this again. Everyone would love some version of Chris Paul or Jason Williams or Bobby Hurley running the point. There are not that many of those guys to go around. K thought he had something like that with Paulus, and was wrong. So be it. He is trying to develop Smith into that role. He's halfway through his sophomore season, including his first year as a starter. Let's give him time.

Additionally, there are plenty of offenses that don't require a "point guard." The Princeton system, in particular, utilizes a two-guard front in which either guard can initialize a patterned attack in which everyone is a passer, cutter and shooter. There are many ways to play basketball, and not all successful ones involve asking your smallest player to set everyone else up.

Given Duke's personnel this year, Coach K has put in a system that lets his three best players -- Singler, Henderson and Scheyer -- make decisions that might ordinarily fall in the hands of a point guard. They are capable of handling these responsibilities.

Finally, a shocking number of your relatively few posts on this board are repeating the same thing, over and over, about point guards. You've made your "point," so to speak, haven't you?

[DukeCO2009]

That quicker thinking is a pretty high expectation but you're entitled to your opinion. But since we're talking about quick thinking, how about Jon's pretty dish to Plumlee?

That was indeed a great pass, and an equally great cut by Miles. Little things like that show that if his physical abilities can catch up to the head he has for the game, he'll be an effective, and possibly great player.

[77devil]

Yah, because it is the means that matter in basketball. Not the ends... brilliant argument

If you are satisfied with the production from the bigs, what can I say. As far as your use of the maxim the ends as opposed to the means, in case you missed it, our guys lost the game(the end that counts). So throw some more of your repartee my way.

[FerryFor50]

I think Coach K did the right thing. Had he gone to the small lineup earlier, all of them would have been in foul trouble and may not be around for the end.

He opted to steal minutes with his big lineup so he can have the small lineup in there for the stretch run.

Good point - why waste the fouls on your scorers?

[Jumbo]

Well, at least all the poo-pooing of the officials is now being followed by the "it is what it is" sentiment.

It's a step in the right direction, I guess.

I've played, coached and reffed and, for the life of me, I can't remember what the rule is in the case of Henderson's rebound. If you come down and land on another player, can it be a foul? Or was the travel the right call? (Forget about any potential push by a third player.)

[Coballs]

Except that Aminu plays the 3 for wake, alongside Johnson and McFarland. You're comparing their 3-5 to our 4-5. If you add in Duke's 3, Gerald Henderson, then this isn't true.

Well I also threw Singler's gaudy numbers into this mix. And he is certainly more of a perimeter player than Aminu. Take them both out, and the discrepancy is even wider.

[feldspar]

I've played, coached and reffed and, for the life of me, I can't remember what the rule is in the case of Henderson's rebound. If you come down and land on another player, can it be a foul? Or was the travel the right call? (Forget about any potential push by a third player.)

To be honest, I'm not sure.

But, we have to talk about reality. I don't like it any more than you do, but the reality is that, you can't call that foul. You just can't. Whoever said it would be the same had the reverse happened in Cameron was right.

You can't call a foul on a guy on the floor that gives the visiting, #1 team in the country the ball at the free throw line to win the game. Just not gonna happen.

As I said, I don't love it, but hey. That's the harsh reality of college basketball.

[jipops]

That was indeed a great pass, and an equally great cut by Miles. Little things like that show that if his physical abilities can catch up to the head he has for the game, he'll be an effective, and possibly great player.

I definitely like the potential that Miles brings to the table. Will be interesting to see how much he improves after another summer. I would caution using the word "great". I don't think he's another Shelden Williams or anything.

[EarlJam]

I've played, coached and reffed and, for the life of me, I can't remember what the rule is in the case of Henderson's rebound. If you come down and land on another player, can it be a foul? Or was the travel the right call? (Forget about any potential push by a third player.)

Wow. Between watching the '85 game at lunch today and watching tonight's game. Look, wayyyyyyyyy too much over thinking here.

The game, to me, the game was well officiated. Duke lost. Lost a tough game to a great team on their home court. And whether or not you agree with the travelling call, we BLEW the play on defense at the end. That said....

We showed grit, but we deserved the loss.

We'll be a better team for it. A MUCH better team.

My thoughts,

-EJ

[Jumbo]

To be honest, I'm not sure.

But, we have to talk about reality. I don't like it any more than you do, but the reality is that, you can't call that foul. You just can't. Whoever said it would be the same had the reverse happened in Cameron was right.

You can't call a foul on a guy on the floor that gives the visiting, #1 team in the country the ball at the free throw line to win the game. Just not gonna happen.

As I said, I don't love it, but hey. That's life.

Agreed. And, unfortunately, there's no way to make it a "no call" because Henderson fell down. The whistle had to blow. Would've loved to have seen some sort of a makeup call on the indbounds play. For instance, Wake's inbounder could've mistakenly shuffled his feet. ;)

I really would like to know the rule, though. I thought that's your job here!

[Jumbo]

Wow. Between watching the '85 game at lunch today and watching tonight's game. Look, wayyyyyyyyy too much over thinking here.

The game, to me, the game was well officiated. Duke lost. Lost a tough game to a great team on their home court.

We showed grit, but we deserved the loss.

We'll be a better team for it. A MUCH better team.

My thoughts,

-EJ

Huh? I'm just trying to find out what the rule is, that's all. Read my first post in this thread. That expresses how I feel about the game.

[Ian]

What a lovely, intellectually honest, constructive post. Glad you're interested in having a conversation.

Let's try this again. Everyone would love some version of Chris Paul or Jason Williams or Bobby Hurley running the point. There are not that many of those guys to go around. K thought he had something like that with Paulus, and was wrong. So be it. He is trying to develop Smith into that role. He's halfway through his sophomore season, including his first year as a starter. Let's give him time.

Additionally, there are plenty of offenses that don't require a "point guard." The Princeton system, in particular, utilizes a two-guard front in which either guard can initialize a patterned attack in which everyone is a passer, cutter and shooter. There are many ways to play basketball, and not all successful ones involve asking your smallest player to set everyone else up.

Given Duke's personnel this year, Coach K has put in a system that lets his three best players -- Singler, Henderson and Scheyer -- make decisions that might ordinarily fall in the hands of a point guard. They are capable of handling these responsibilities.

Finally, a shocking number of your relatively few posts on this board are repeating the same thing, over and over, about point guards. You've made your "point," so to speak, haven't you?

I'm not asking for a Chris Paul or Bobby Hurley, I just wish we had a Tommy Amaker. Is that so much to ask?

I know K is trying to develop Smith into a PG. I'm just disappointed that it doesn't appear to be working. I have seen very little reason to be optimistic about Smith's progress in this regard.

And yes I am harping on it, because to me this is the glaring weakness on this team, and why for long stretches of games we would look horrible on offense.

[feldspar]

Agreed. And, unfortunately, there's no way to make it a "no call" because Henderson fell down. The whistle had to blow. Would've loved to have seen some sort of a makeup call on the indbounds play. For instance, Wake's inbounder could've mistakenly shuffled his feet. ;)

I really would like to know the rule, though. I thought that's your job here!

From what I can surmise from the rule book, a player laying on the floor does not have legal guarding position. So, displacing a player with the ball would, from my understanding, be a foul.

That being said, my earlier statement still applies.

It is what it is.

[FerryFor50]

I'm not asking for a Chris Paul or Bobby Hurley, I just wish we had a Tommy Amaker. Is that so much to ask?

I know K is trying to develop Smith into a PG. I'm just disappointed that it doesn't appear to be working. I have seen very little reason to be optimistic about Smith's progress in this regard.

And yes I am harping on it, because to me this is the glaring weakness on this team, and why for long stretches of games we would look horrible on offense.

Just use Henderson as an example here.

In his sophomore season, he didn't look anything like he looks now as a player. Now he's rounding into form.

It just takes some players longer than others... Smith has potential and the ability. He just needs it to click like it did for Hendo.

[EarlJam]

Huh? I'm just trying to find out what the rule is, that's all. Read my first post in this thread. That expresses how I feel about the game.

I gotcha! As mentioned in my first post, I have not read all the posts yet. I admit some ignorance here. I love your other thread on the overall Duke reaction. It shows how "hoops smart" Duke fans are!

It's been a long time since I've come away from a Duke loss so..............encouraged?

-EJ

[BlueintheFace]

If you are satisfied with the production from the bigs, what can I say. As far as your use of the maxim the ends as opposed to the means, in case you missed it, our guys lost the game(the end that counts). So throw some more of your repartee my way.

1) This is great. You are saying that rebounding (a stat indicative of inside play) was actually NOT indicative of inside play on this one very rare occasion because the stat box says that our big men didn't get that many rebounds.

2) The ends to which I was referring (as you know) was great rebounding

[FerryFor50]

From what I can surmise from the rule book, a player laying on the floor does not have legal guarding position. So, displacing a player with the ball would, from my understanding, be a foul.

That being said, my earlier statement still applies.

It is what it is.

I think of it in terms of how loose ball fouls are called. Just because you're both diving at the ball doesn't give one person over the other the option of plowing into the person with position.

Same thing should apply with a player on the floor, IMO.

[FireOgilvie]

What a lovely, intellectually honest, constructive post. Glad you're interested in having a conversation.

Let's try this again. Everyone would love some version of Chris Paul or Jason Williams or Bobby Hurley running the point. There are not that many of those guys to go around. K thought he had something like that with Paulus, and was wrong. So be it. He is trying to develop Smith into that role. He's halfway through his sophomore season, including his first year as a starter. Let's give him time.

Additionally, there are plenty of offenses that don't require a "point guard." The Princeton system, in particular, utilizes a two-guard front in which either guard can initialize a patterned attack in which everyone is a passer, cutter and shooter. There are many ways to play basketball, and not all successful ones involve asking your smallest player to set everyone else up.

Given Duke's personnel this year, Coach K has put in a system that lets his three best players -- Singler, Henderson and Scheyer -- make decisions that might ordinarily fall in the hands of a point guard. They are capable of handling these responsibilities.

Finally, a shocking number of your relatively few posts on this board are repeating the same thing, over and over, about point guards. You've made your "point," so to speak, haven't you?


I agree. Thank you. It gets frustrating reading the same drivel over and over again.


I think you can. He's fairly ineffective against comp his size...i thought last game he was coming out his shell. He's just a bit too slow in his movements and not very explosive. I would still play him cuz you can't teach size but Plumlee has shown he can do exactly what Zoubs does and better. At least Lance plays sound defense.

Lance is probably the worst defender of all of the regulars. I re-watch games to focus on defense... I've noticed he is consistently out of position. He has a tendency to be drawn away from the basket by his man, which leads to his poor rebounding numbers. He is also very slow at switching on screens, leading to a lot of points. Zoubek is slow and not particularly coordinated, but he's surprisingly effective when he just stands there with his hands up. Like you said, "You can't teach size." I really like Plumlee in theory (mobile big man), but it hasn't quite panned out on the court.

[Cavlaw]

I gotcha! As mentioned in my first post, I have not read all the posts yet. I admit some ignorance here. I love your other thread on the overall Duke reaction. It shows how "hoops smart" Duke fans are!

It's been a long time since I've come away from a Duke loss so..............encouraged?

-EJ
Not all of the posts are still readable...

Wha? Oh, nevermind... carry on, carry on... nothing to see here. :)

[Ian]

From what I can surmise from the rule book, a player laying on the floor does not have legal guarding position. So, displacing a player with the ball would, from my understanding, be a foul.

That being said, my earlier statement still applies.

It is what it is.

I have no problem with the call, the ref was not going to call a foul that hands Duke the game. So they make the call that left the game in the player's hands.

After the call, it was still 68-68. Wake still had to make a great play, and Duke still had a chance to make a great defensive stand. Wake took advantage and executed, Duke didn't. We should spend more time working on defending the inbounds rather than worry about calls.

[BD80]

... I mean, McClure grabbed 10 boards against a big Wake team, and he's a generous 6'6".


... Dave was huge for us on the boards, he's such a great "glue" guy for us. ...

Fox has Dave down for 12 rebounds in 25 minutes. He played great. The whole team played well. Singler was amazing.

Next year, Mason and Ryan should really help move the ball through the post. I don't care if we use the high post, but I would like to see the ball move through the paint on occasion. Our pick and roll or pick and slip has been virtually nonexistent this year.

Our defense and the tandem of G and Kyle is good enough to get us to the elite eight even if we aren't hitting shots. If the rest of the team hits shots, we should play a couple of games in Detroit.

[feldspar]

Here's another situation to ponder:

Say a defensive player is standing straight up, but with his feet more than shoulder-width apart. Technically, he is not in LGP.

Then, the offensive player with the ball trips over the defensive player's foot and loses the ball out of bounds. Who's at fault?

Well, according to the rules you would say the defensive player. But would you honestly feel comfortable calling that with the game on the line and only 3 seconds left?

[FerryFor50]

Here's another situation to ponder:

Say a defensive player is standing straight up, but with his feet more than shoulder-width apart. Technically, he is not in LGP.

Then, the offensive player with the ball trips over the defensive player's foot and loses the ball out of bounds. Who's at fault?

Well, according to the rules you would say the defensive player. But would you honestly feel comfortable calling that with the game on the line and only 3 seconds left?

Agreed. But I also saw Brendan Haywood get a foul call in his favor in the final seconds against Duke that cost us the game. It happens sometimes... :)

[FerryFor50]

Fox has Dave down for 12 rebounds in 25 minutes. He played great. The whole team played well. Singler was amazing.

Next year, Mason and Ryan should really help move the ball through the post. I don't care if we use the high post, but I would like to see the ball move through the paint on occasion. Our pick and roll or pick and slip has been virtually nonexistent this year.

Our defense and the tandem of G and Kyle is good enough to get us to the elite eight even if we aren't hitting shots. If the rest of the team hits shots, we should play a couple of games in Detroit.

Yea, when I posted 10 boards... Yahoo hadn't updated its site yet.

[fan345678]

I think this is precisely why the ref called a travel. I don't think it was the right call, but the ref may have realized that he blew the whistle and was about to call a foul that would give Duke a chance to win the game with two free throws. So, in a moment of panic after already having blown the whistle, he switched it to a travel call to save face in Wake's home building. Maybe he thought it was the lesser of two evils, but clearly, that was a foul as there was contact that lead to an advantage for Wake Forest.

Regardless, we didn't play well enough to win that game, and I hope we play better as a team when they come to Cameron. I think there was plenty about Wake to exploit, but we simply did not execute the way we should have.

nah; two refs came running in to call it a travel. The immediate issue was K, G, and Nolan all blowing it on the inbounds, and the bigger issue a general lack of shooting combined with a constant ignorance of help defense coming down low. Wake was lucky to have both Duke and UNC at home within their first five conference games. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out.

[EarlJam]

Agreed. But I also saw Brendan Haywood get a foul call in his favor in the final seconds against Duke that cost us the game. It happens sometimes... :)

I don't blame the refs tonight at ALL. BUT, and that's a big "BUT," I must say that NOTHING..............NOTHING tops 2004 UConn when it comes to refs.

I might still be married had the refs not had such a dismal performance that dark, dreary night. Those sons of britches!

-EJ

[FerryFor50]

I don't blame the refs tonight at ALL. BUT, and that's a big "BUT," I must say that NOTHING..............NOTHING tops 2004 UConn when it comes to refs.

I might still be married had the refs not had such a dismal performance that dark, dreary night. Those sons of britches!

-EJ


Yea that was a pretty god-awful game. Not as bad as the Wake game where nearly every Duke player fouled out... well, not as bad in terms of officiating. The actual cost of the loss in the NC was worse, of course. :p

[dukeballer2294]

1 thing... how does a man jump into mid-air then just fall flat on his back without getting pushed? Imposssible. Hendo was fouled with 2 left everyone can see that.

[feldspar]

1 thing... how does a man jump into mid-air then just fall flat on his back without getting pushed? Imposssible.

Impossible? I've seen it happen plenty of times.

[CameronCrazy'11]

Impossible? I've seen it happen plenty of times.

Well, it didn't happen here. Henderson landed on Teague. Foul on Teague. At the same time, Aminu pushed/ hugged him. Foul on Aminu. Not a travel.

[Jumbo]

Well, it didn't happen here. Henderson landed on Teague. Foul on Teague. At the same time, Aminu pushed/ hugged him. Foul on Aminu. Not a travel.

I think we can all agree that, at the very least, that's a very tough call to make there. Probably better off letting it go, right?

[geraldsneighbor]

Sure, the win would have been great but do you think we can gain more from this from a loss? I mean we would have all slept alot better, but at the end of the day, this win wasn't making or breaking us. Maybe a loss makes it easier to go back and find ways to improve.

[FerryFor50]

I think we can all agree that, at the very least, that's a very tough call to make there. Probably better off letting it go, right?

Would be a heckuva lot easier to let go if it hadn't been at such a very bad time. :D

[FerryFor50]

Sure, the win would have been great but do you think we can gain more from this from a loss? I mean we would have all slept alot better, but at the end of the day, this win wasn't making or breaking us. Maybe a loss makes it easier to go back and find ways to improve.

Yea, that loss to us did wonders for Georgetown, eh? :p

[BD80]

I think if we can get 15 points out of LT, Zoubek, and Plumlee combined, we're a different team. That's not asking much at all, ...

15 ppg is a solid 2nd team All-ACC performer.

Yeah, we would all like a C that is one of the 10 or 15 best players in the league.

[FerryFor50]

15 ppg is a solid 2nd team All-ACC performer.

Yeah, we would all like a C that is one of the 10 or 15 best players in the league.

He was asking for it combined, not out of one of em.

Can't say I disagree either.

[loran16]

At the game from my vantage point in 239, I couldn't tell if it was a travel or not.

But as i said to my friends, the refs will let em play in the last minute.

Everyone should've been on the guard for the inbound right underneath the basket...I thought it would go to Aminu, myself, since Johnson had really been less dominant it seemed than the freshman.

Still, I figured they'd get a open jumper off, not a lay up. Bad D there.

Certain players need to be relooked at really here:

Zoo: Lets put it this way, on one particular play the ball found its way to Zoo inside. He was beyond everyone but teague with his face to the basket. What's he do? He DRIBBLES before putting it up. By the time he puts it up, 3 forwards are now in front of him for the easy block.
Zoo is rather weak as we're seeing now. He has a bad habit of trying to dribble or put the ball down to regroup after passing it. He has to learn to trust himself when getting the ball up high and just put. it. in. I doubt this will be resolved this season, i hope next season with more competition coming, that he'll figure it out.

Lance: I'm known for hating on Lance Thomas so I'll try to be good here. Zoo gets noticed for being weak because he's so noticable, but Lance in a game like this just fades into obscurity. He can't play inside with these guys, and he can't defend them either.
The best use i've seen for lance this year has been a midrange Jumper (No, i'm not kidding) and guarding a fast guard who likes to drive inside (See Curry at times). He can't guard a big forward. In other words, when he plays the 3! It's not too late to try and switch him to small forward rather than power forward...he'll see more time there with more PFs coming in next year than he will at PF, and he's blocking Miles.

Miles: Miles shows some good signs (He was the only big to get some points) and some good D. Still he's a little raw. Still glad to see him getting some time in the game.

McClure: Dave is great on D, no question. And i don't expect him to be good on O. But when say Zoo/Lance is unable to score in a game, If you want to have Dave in, then Zoo/Lance CANT BE IN THE GAME. We were down and needed scoring and for too long we had only basically 3 players who could score.

The other players i think have been talked about enough.

-------------------------
Last but not least, Was Marty injured? He wasn't wearing the normal warmups as the rest of the team and did not warm up. He also sat on the far end of the bench. Any word there?

[JDev]

A comeback to be proud of. For a long stretch, according to K's postgame comments, Duke lacked the intensity of previous wins. That they regained it tenfold and put themselves in a position where they could have won just as easily as they lost. On the final play G anticipated a screen that didn't come, and waited on a switch. There was no screen and Johnson just slipped to the rim. A little bit of a defensive lapse and a great play call. Looking at the box score, I was surprised Duke shot 33%. I thought it was lower, maybe in the 20's. Duke will shoot better, and on this night, Wake's D gets a certain amount of credit there. It looked almost like 2006 for awhile, in the sense that two guys were doing pretty much all of the scoring. Would have been great to win, but this game solidified the fact that both Duke and Wake are there nationally. I look forward to the rematch, and hope for a higher FG percentage!

[geraldsneighbor]

Yea, that loss to us did wonders for Georgetown, eh? :p

We aren't Georgetown. I just was trying to find a positive. I am sure the coaching staff is fast at work at finding ways to improve of a if there is such a thing "encouraging loss." If this was March or April, I'd be pissed. We have time to mature and I know we will.

[FerryFor50]

We aren't Georgetown. I just was trying to find a positive. I am sure the coaching staff is fast at work at finding ways to improve of a if there is such a thing "encouraging loss." If this was March or April, I'd be pissed. We have time to mature and I know we will.

Oh, I know. Just playing devil's advocate (or in this case, anti-advocate?) and getting a swipe in at Georgetown at the same time. :D

[BD80]

He was asking for it combined, not out of one of em. ...

He EXPECTS 15 ppg out of the center position. We all want it, but unless we get an All ACC performer at center, it ain't happening. Expecting it - or criticizing if we don't get it - is unreasonable.

[EarlJam]

Everyone should've been on the guard for the inbound right underneath the basket...I thought it would go to Aminu, myself, since Johnson had really been less dominant it seemed than the freshman.

Still, I figured they'd get a open jumper off, not a lay up. Bad D there.



Yes, YEs, YES. Amen! My brother! Word!

And I agree with most of your other comments as well. A very accurate analysis in my opinion.

Great post.

Here's the key: The team will SEE that breakdown in "D" this week. It won't happen again. In January, no big deal. In March, another matter.

Better now than then.

-EarlJam

[JDev]

Nolan had one of his poorer games on the year, and I think that is the exception rather than the rule. This game was a real testiment to Duke's depth, as they used many different line-ups and ultimately found enough success in doing so to get right back in the game. That is certainly a positive going forward.
And, as others have said: Wake, you are good as anyone. No need to rush the floor. You belong in the winner's circle against anyone.

[DukeCO2009]

15 ppg is a solid 2nd team All-ACC performer.

Yeah, we would all like a C that is one of the 10 or 15 best players in the league.

As the poster below you pointed out, I was talking about getting a collective 15 points out of our bigs, not 15 from one of them (although that would certainly be awesome, too). I'm not saying all the points should come from the 5, either; I'm just saying our frontcourt of Z, Lance, Miles, and Dave has the talent to give us a small offensive lift as a group. Is it unreasonable to think Z and Lance can each have 5 or 6? Throw in a random bucket from Miles or McClure, and there ya go. Don't think I'm asking too much--that's far from an all-ACC line for any of the players I mentioned. In fact, you could even go so far as to say that it would be subpar given what centers on elite teams typically produce. That said, such an effort would greatly, and I mean GREATLY help our cause.

[JDev]

Gaudio made a nice play call on the inbounds. G held his ground anticipating a screen, and being in position to switch on that screen. There was no screen and Johnson slipped to the rim. Its a good call under the basket against a team that switches so actively, as Duke does. I think Duke will learn to be a bit more aware on that inbounds, as opposed to assuming that the screen is coming. That individual play doesn't change the fact that Duke played great D again.

[DukeCO2009]

Gaudio made a nice play call on the inbounds. G held his ground anticipating a screen, and being in position to switch on that screen. There was no screen and Johnson slipped to the rim. Its a good call under the basket against a team that switches so actively, as Duke does. I think Duke will learn to be a bit more aware on that inbounds, as opposed to assuming that the screen is coming. That individual play doesn't change the fact that Duke played great D again.

Wouldn't say we necessarily played great D until the final few minutes. Wake was on pace for 80 or so with ten minutes left, which isn't much below their season average.

[bgibbs1001]

I'm new to this board posting so here's my first try.

I think perhaps if Duke were to play a faster tempo against bigger teams like Wake, that the advantage would go to Duke. When Duke speeds up the tempo they are hard to beat. A faster tempo also favors a team of smaller size which against Wake, Duke clearly was, and it wears out the bigger guys, ie. Wake.

All in all though the team played gutsy in making that comeback and keeping it close on a bad shooting night. K will use the loss as a learning experience and the team will only get better.

[Oriole Way]

I was expecting a loss tonight, so I wasn't surprised by the outcome. Like someone just said, Wake really is built to give us major trouble. We made a valiant comeback after getting thoroughly outplayed for the entire game. Shooting 33%, making lots of mistakes, exercising poor shoot selection and yet having a great chance to win against a legit top 3 team is impressive, and encouraging.

Right now, this team doesn't take good enough care of the ball. I really think excessive turnovers is our biggest weakness, even though I think our offense in general is lackluster and needs major improvement. Tonight, inexcusable turnovers led to about 10 points. They give our opponents an easy way to score, as we obviously don't have a chance to set up our defense. Some of Nolan Smith's decision-making is shoddy. We make silly turnovers at very inopportune times against our tough opponents. Gerald Henderson still gets stripped a little too much driving in the lane, and a couple of his turnovers tonight were devastating, even though we had no shot of winning if it had not been for him.

I also think our shot selection is fairly terrible. We still settle for too many 3's, especially early in the clock. Singler is the main culprit in this area. Many times, our missed 3's will lead directly into a fast break opportunity for our opponents, and again robs us of the chance of setting up our great man-to-man. I think K needs to start calling more set plays and setting more screens for Singler, Smith, and Henderson in particular, as well as Scheyer. We really need to drive to the rim early in the shot clock instead of pounding the ball into the floor and making a couple of passes around the wings and the top of the key. If we make that a priority, we will get more trips to the free throw line, as well as open up more ideal looks for our 3-pt shooters.

It's good that our defense is so strong at this point of the season. Our offensive efficiency is really what is holding this team back, and a I am hopeful that K can address the problems before long. I also hope Scheyer gets hot soon... he is in one of the worst shooting slumps of his career and we would be much more dangerous if he can get his rhythm back.

Just some thoughts... I really think we will take Wake out at Cameron, and I'm looking forward to it. We really need to improve our ball-handling, shot selection, and overall offensive approach before the rematch, however.

[JDev]

Wouldn't say we necessarily played great D until the final few minutes. Wake was on pace for 80 or so with ten minutes left, which isn't much below their season average.

The defense was not as good as other games in the area of stopping the dribble-drive for a good stretch in the middle of the game, but Wake is probably the best offensuve team Duke has faced. I think some of that can be attributed to Nolan's struggles. Duke rebounded well, which is usually how you finish a defensive possession. Teague, their unquestioned top player, was mostly held in check. If he hadn't hit that circus three before the break, he would have finished in single digits. Plus, Wake barely got to 70. What they are on pace for doesn't matter near as much as what they actually got. But, unfortunately, what they got tonight was enough.

[Devilsfan]

The game tonight clearly showed that again we have two SUPER stars and a host of role players. Reminds me of JJ and Sheldon and everyone else. Heaven help us if Kyle and G depart early. I thought that we played against a very talented young team and did quite well. We sure could have used one good guard and one emerging good big man to step up although Dave played his usual great defense.

[BD80]

As the poster below you pointed out, I was talking about getting a collective 15 points out of our bigs, not 15 from one of them (although that would certainly be awesome, too). I'm not saying all the points should come from the 5, either; I'm just saying our frontcourt of Z, Lance, Miles, and Dave has the talent to give us a small offensive lift as a group. Is it unreasonable to think Z and Lance can each have 5 or 6? Throw in a random bucket from Miles or McClure, and there ya go. That's hardly an all-ACC line for anyone I mentioned. In fact, you could even go so far as to say that it would be subpar given what centers on elite teams typically produce. Such an effort would greatly, and I mean GREATLY help our cause, though.

Kyle is our leading scorer and a sure-fire 1st team ALL ACC, and averages 17 ppg.

Kyle is also one of the two "bigs" we play at any given time, and averages close to 40 mpg in league games, give or take 3 minutes.

Thus the remaining "bigs" are the centers - and combined they get about 40 minutes per game. To ask for 15 ppg is to essentially ask for a top 15 player in the league. In the ACC, only Hans, Gani Lawai, Trevor Booker and Jeff Allen pull down the numbers you expect from our centers. How many "elite" teams have centers that get 15 ppg?

Some nights our "bigs" will get 15, particularly those nights when we try to exploit a size advantage and feed Z. Most nights they won't. It is unreasonable to expect it as an average.

[wisteria]

I'm new to this board posting so here's my first try.

I think perhaps if Duke were to play a faster tempo against bigger teams like Wake, that the advantage would go to Duke. When Duke speeds up the tempo they are hard to beat. A faster tempo also favors a team of smaller size which against Wake, Duke clearly was, and it wears out the bigger guys, ie. Wake.

All in all though the team played gutsy in making that comeback and keeping it close on a bad shooting night. K will use the loss as a learning experience and the team will only get better.

The UNC/Wake game was literally a track meet.

[DukeCO2009]

Kyle is our leading scorer and a sure-fire 1st team ALL ACC, and averages 17 ppg.

Kyle is also one of the two "bigs" we play at any given time, and averages close to 40 mpg in league games, give or take 3 minutes.

Thus the remaining "bigs" are the centers - and combined they get about 40 minutes per game. To ask for 15 ppg is to essentially ask for a top 15 player in the league. In the ACC, only Hans, Gani Lawai, Trevor Booker and Jeff Allen pull down the numbers you expect from our centers. How many "elite" teams have centers that get 15 ppg?

Some nights our "bigs" will get 15, particularly those nights when we try to exploit a size advantage and feed Z. Most nights they won't. It is unreasonable to expect it as an average.

Just because you play the four on occasion doesn't mean you're a "big". Kyle's game is far from that of a typical player his size. He spends most of his time on the perimeter, and is one of our better three point shooters. This is both a function of his skillset and of Duke's offense. We rarely play more than one guy in the post at any given point, even when we face zones--that's just the way K draws things up. Also, I think you're making a bit of a hasty inference when you say that 4 guys getting fifteen points collectively is the same as having one guy get fifteen himself. Don't follow your logic there at all. I also don't see how expecting fifteen out of Z, Lance, Miles, and Dave is unreasonable when they've in fact played better than that thus far:

Zoubek: 6.4 ppg
Thomas: 5.9 ppg
McClure: 2.2 ppg
Plumlee: 1.8 ppg
Total: 16.3 ppg

If those number hold, we're a much better team than if they don't. Tonight is a huge testament to that. A bucket or two would have made the difference, and I think it's more than reasonable to think that the best chances to get those buckets would have been right next to the basket where the bigs hang out. You ought to check your numbers before you post next time.

[dball]

I also don't see how expecting fifteen out of Z, Lance, Miles, and Dave is unreasonable when they've in fact played better than that thus far:

Zoubek: 6.4 ppg
Thomas: 5.9 ppg
McClure: 2.2 ppg
Plumlee: 1.8 ppg
Total: 16.3 ppg

If those number hold, we're a much better team than if they don't. Tonight is a huge testament to that. A bucket or two would have made the difference, and I think it's more than reasonable to think that the best chances to get those buckets would have been right next to the basket where the bigs hang out. You ought to check your numbers before you post next time.

Not sure I'm following this reasoning. You fail to note that the total of 16.3 ppg comes at an average of 53.6 minutes per game when only 40 are alloted for the "5" you're conglomerating. Based on per minute averages, in 40 minutes this combination would score a little over 8 points--not nearly 15.

Now, if you're saying Duke should be allowed a 6th player for one-half of a half. I'd agree we ought to expect at least 15 points from the 5 & 6. :)

[CameronCrazy'11]

The worry about scoring coming from the low post is overblown. We need rebounding and post defense out of our bigs, and they've been very good in those areas. You win games by scoring more points, not more points by big men in the paint. Our offense is very good (6th in Pomeroy), even if we're not getting as many points from the "5 spot" as some would like.

[DukeCO2009]

Not sure I'm following this reasoning. You fail to note that the total of 16.3 ppg comes at an average of 53.6 minutes per game when only 40 are alloted for the "5" you're conglomerating. Based on per minute averages, in 40 minutes this combination would score a little over 8 points--not nearly 15.

Now, if you're saying Duke should be allowed a 6th player for one-half of a half. I'd agree we ought to expect at least 15 points from the 5 & 6. :)

I'll try not to get testy here, but geez, I never ONCE said all these points had to come from the 5. In fact, I've gone out of my way to state that I'm NOT talking about the 5; I'm talking about our "bigs". Lordy...

[FireOgilvie]

The worry about scoring coming from the low post is overblown. We need rebounding and post defense out of our bigs, and they've been very good in those areas. You win games by scoring more points, not more points by big men in the paint. Our offense is very good (6th in Pomeroy), even if we're not getting as many points from the "5 spot" as some would like.

The whole point is that we shouldn't have to rely on only a few people for all of our scoring. I don't think it's overblown. It's important to be able to get at least a few points from these guys, unlike today where we got 2.

[bludvlman]

I thought Duke was going to lose but didn't think we would play that bad yet we still almost stole this one and probably should have one b/c that play before the last play, suprised nobody is talking about that. Gerald did not travel at all on that rebound before the last shot, he was pushed in the back by Wake and a foul should have been called, yet G still didn't even travel after the push. G should have been on the line for a chance to take the lead. That said terrible D on the last play, you have to know that will be the play. Heck let Wake inbound it at the top of the key. Z should have been in the game to guard the inbounder just to get in his vision line.

[devildownunder]

Smith handled the ball poorly IMO. I'm not sure what's going on with his ball handling but he's starting to make bad decisions, pick up his dribble at the wrong times, and make fairly bad passes. He's also looks slower than at the beginning of the season, so not sure what that's about

he's a 2 guard or lead guard (maybe) who is trying to learn to be a true point, and tonight was his baptism by fire. He'll be better for this in the long run, and so will this team.

I am as unfazed by this game as I ever am after a loss. I consider tonight a necessary step in this team's path toward its potential.

[bludvlman]

Its amazing how this game came down to a last second shot, with how poorly Duke played and how good Wake is we should have been blown out of the stadium.

[devildownunder]

2. What can we expect from the Center position from here on out? It likely will determine how far we go in the NCAAs. The bell is tolling for Zoubs.

3. It wasn't a disaster, we didn't play well, largely because from the outset we didn't play with confidence. The team looked hesitant and at times, scared. Kyle has the talent to make up for bad decision, but even he threw up some questionable shots. However he deserves the Congressional Medal of Honor for his effort on the boards.

4. Do they still offer the International Omelet at IHOP? I need some comfort food cause this game really hurts.


2) if not Z, who? who else do we have who can give us a post presence? I think it's got to be Z. And please, please nobody suggest that we intentionally make ourselves a doughnut team, as if that ever really works at a high level. I think I might scream.

3) Tonight was the first time this season that this team truly stepped into the lion's den and unless you have a roster full of nothing but juniors and seniors, you are going to see some doe eyes out there each year whenever that night rolls around. The fact that we were able to hang around and have a real chance to win right down to the last tick makes me very optimistic for the rest of the way. Take heed all ye faithful, the metal is being forged.

4) MMMMMMMMMMMM pancakes.

[devildownunder]

I don't think Henderson is the most athletic "by far." I think he is VERY athletic, but I also think Elliot Williams and David McClure are also very athletic. I mean, McClure grabbed 10 boards against a big Wake team, and he's a generous 6'6".

McClure isn't all that athletic, relative to Henderson, IMO. Dave's no stiff but he lacks that explosion that you see regularly from gerald. Williams may well be that kind of athlete as well but he plays so sparingly that we've only seen little flashes of what he can do.

[Seattledukie]

Reminded me of the games from the early 90's when Wake, Curlina, State, Virginia, and GT all playing competitive ball. If you think Duke played poorly, you just don't know basketball. We played well on both ends of the court the whole game - so did Wake. To be in the position to win with 10 seconds to go in a hostile environment against the #4 team in the country is a sign of a team that is going to do well in the tourney.

People forget that the regular season is a journey. As a previous poster said, metal (or meddle) is being forged. This is the kind of game that the team will learn from.

As for no one else stepping up, I disagree. Paulus played a great game, McClure brought some strong minutes, and even Plumlee showed he can play in the ACC. The second half was the Henderson and Singler show on offense, but we had a complete performance from the whole team. We need Jon to find his shot this season; when he does, we will be unstoppable.

[davekay1971]

The second half was the Henderson and Singler show on offense, but we had a complete performance from the whole team. We need Jon to find his shot this season; when he does, we will be unstoppable.

Generally agree with this (though I would always hesitate to say unstoppable). I'm reading more consternation than I feel. We played a legit national title contender on their court, shot poorly (partially our own shooting, partially their defense bothering us), and lost on a nicely designed and executed last second play. It happens. The game highlighted some weaknesses we have, but it also highlighted tremendous strengths.

1) We need another scorer to step up. The obvious candidate here is Scheyer, who's a better offensive player than he's shown lately. The other player I'd look to is Nolan. If both of them can improve their consistency and offensive production, we'll be a much better team.

2) Zoubek is limited. The kid has improved markedly this year, but he's still the weakest part of our starting lineup, and he's not going to turn into Hakeem Olajuwon anytime soon. We get some rebounds, a good post passer, and some limited offense from him, and that's about it.

On the other hand:
1) We are a good rebounding team, which is usually a weakness for us
2) We're an excellent defensive team
3) We start two legit first team all-ACC players, which is saying something given the talent level in this league...and those two stars can carry the team a long way
4) We have really, really good role players - McClure, Thomas, and Paulus have all shown the ability to really contribute, and they make us a legit 8 player rotation.

So, we've got most of the pieces in place to be a national title contender, based on the evidence of (1) our record so far; and (2) going toe to toe and down to the wire (and the distance, etc) with a team that has every chance of winning the title this year. With a little improvement on the offensive end by a couple of players (who are very capable of making that improvement in the next month) we're there.

BTW: In terms of preseason expectations for both Duke and Wake, you have to step back and admire the job Coach K and Gaudio are doing.

[Lulu]

Paging the Playcaller...

Just want to be convinced all was fair. I was completely content with the prospect of losing until it starting feeling like we were getting robbed. Didn't deserve to win, but I hate getting robbed even more.

[devildownunder]

Right down the failed last-second inbounds play. Hope this story has the same ending.

[RelativeWays]

2 points combined from Z, LT and Plumlee is a big concern and there isn't much of a way to whitewash it. Its a bit frustrating when when we don't need either of them to be a Brand or Williams for us, a Sanders or Meek would be fine, we just need someone how can get us 8 or 10 points down there, at least so the other team will have to pay attention when they get the ball in the post.

I do agree that a lot of our issues will be solved once Scheyer finds his shot and Nolan settles down to more consistent play (I'd like to see GP get 9 or 10 a night at least.). Despite the poor shooting, we fared a lot better against a very good WFU team versus last year. This loss didn't "expose" Duke, if anything people doubted if Duke could hang with an offensively explosive team like Wake, and there's plenty of time to improve.

[devildownunder]

nah; two refs came running in to call it a travel. The immediate issue was K, G, and Nolan all blowing it on the inbounds, and the bigger issue a general lack of shooting combined with a constant ignorance of help defense coming down low. Wake was lucky to have both Duke and UNC at home within their first five conference games. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out.

You can go on the message board officials frequent and see that they are very aware of the whole "Duke gets all the calls" mantra from losers around the country (sorry, but if you blame the refs for your team's failures, that's what you are). We have also seen quite clearly from playcaller's posts that referees certainly do have other things on their minds besides the letter of the rule book when they make calls. What it all adds up to is that none of us should expect Duke to get anything resembling a close call at a decisive moment in a game any time soon. If we want to win, we can't let it come down to that. We're going to come out on the short end for a while.

[CameronBornAndBred]

BTW... since when do you storm the court after beating a ranked team when you're ranked almost as high?
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I woke up this morning expecting alot of people questioning the court rush. I don't have any problem with it. It was a great game between two highly ranked teams and in state rivals that nearly went to overtime. The fans poured their all into cheering on Wake throughout the whole game, they should certainly be allowed to celebrate the victory at the end.

On the game itself, it was great, even though we lost. I scared the hell out of my family screaming when Gerald hit his shot! Bummer it ended in defeat, but we proved we can play with anyone, even in a hostile environment.

[Oh Canada]

I tried to read as many of the 11 pages of posts that I could so if I'm repeating something here I apologize.

I was blown away by the obvious advantage the high guard on Wake was getting defensively with the use of hand checks the entire game. I'm not saying Duke wasn't guilty at times but every time our ball handler had the ball at the top he was being pushed/touched/grabbed by the defender.

Not only does this take away your spacing but can throw you off balance and alter the offensive flow.

How was this not being called? Better yet, many refs will take the time at a whistle to call the culprits over and tell them they're not being watched. I hope that when the refs watch game tape they will look back and see how obvious the defensive advantage was because of it. There were times I thought Paulus was going to retalliate so I give him credit for keeping his composure.

[roywhite]

It would be hard to ask any more of Singler, Henderson, or McClure than they gave last night. And I figure that Scheyer's shot will come around. So looking ahead to the rematch with Wake and other key games I'd like to see:

1. Nolan Smith play more comfortably, understand his role, and utilize his talents.
2. More from Plumlee---we're starting to see a few good plays from him. He can help on defense, rebounding, and occasional offense down low.
3. Get EWill into the rotation---he can help as a perimeter defender, rebounder, and drives to the rim.

Lance/Zoubs? Well, hope for more production, but I don't know if it will happen against good opponents.

Love this team.

[JG Nothing]

You can go on the message board officials frequent and see that they are very aware of the whole "Duke gets all the calls" mantra from losers around the country (sorry, but if you blame the refs for your team's failures, that's what you are).

I guess that makes about half the posters in this thread "losers."

[77devil]

1) This is great. You are saying that rebounding (a stat indicative of inside play) was actually NOT indicative of inside play on this one very rare occasion because the stat box says that our big men didn't get that many rebounds.

2) The ends to which I was referring (as you know) was great rebounding

No I did not write that at all. I simply wrote that the rebouning margin was despite the lack of the production from the 33 combined minutes of Zoub/Lance/Miles that was wholly inadequate.

[jv001]

I'm not asking for a Chris Paul or Bobby Hurley, I just wish we had a Tommy Amaker. Is that so much to ask?

I know K is trying to develop Smith into a PG. I'm just disappointed that it doesn't appear to be working. I have seen very little reason to be optimistic about Smith's progress in this regard.

And yes I am harping on it, because to me this is the glaring weakness on this team, and why for long stretches of games we would look horrible on offense.

The point guard play has not been what we had all hoped for so far. But that's not our only area of concern. Our two headed center position has not been what we had hoped for since ACC competition began. While Zoubs has been what I would call average at best, Lance has really regressed. We are getting very little from him. But with the point guard play and center position play being subpar, we would still have won this game if Jon shoots anywhere close to his ability. Jon is not only a good shooter, he is a good scorer and since he quit hitting the "3", he has not been able to score from 2 point territory either. I would say that he's pressing. This kid is a good player and must be in the lineup for the other outstanding things he does. So we need for someone else to step up and take some of the pressure off him. I would like to see Dave McClure be that person. He is so valuable. If he could just give us around 7 to 8 points per game that would make a world of difference. I would think practice today is going to be pretty tough and let's hope Dave works on his shot and Plumlee has a good week of practice. We need him also. Go Duke!

[Devilsfan]

Our guard play last night makes the prospects of a Wall that much more important. And is EWill that bad that he can't play as good as Paulus or Smith did last night? Also how does a seven footer with the ball at point blank range keep getting stuffed? Kyle, G, and Dave need just a little help and we could still be number 1 in our conference.

[devildownunder]

I guess that makes about half the posters in this thread "losers."

jg nothing, those are your words, not mine.

[devildownunder]

Our guard play last night makes the prospects of a Wall that much more important. And is EWill that bad that he can't play as good as Paulus or Smith did last night? Also how does a seven footer with the ball at point blank range keep getting stuffed? Kyle, G, and Dave need just a little help and we could still be number 1 in our conference.

I believe we are still number 1 in our conference.

[KyDevilinIL]

I didn't read the entire thread, so apologies if this has been stated, but my main morning-after thought is that we stand a real - but probably unlikely – chance of finishing 11-5, maybe even 10-6 in the ACC.

Based on results so far and Duke's brutal schedule the rest of the way, especially compared to the rest of the league, that possibility can't be ignored.

However, I still think we split with Wake and UNC, I think we beat Clemson (although they'll be dying to beat one of the Big 3, and we're their last chance). The game at Va. Tech won't be simple, and College Park will probably be unhinged mania after this week's events. My gut says we lose 2-3 more by the ACCT, which would be a major accomplishment.

I don't mind playing the tougher ACC schedule in theory, and I'm comforted by the fact that we're capable of so much better than we showed at Wake last night. But the home stretch will be an epic challenge for this team, and it's going to reveal much about our true condition entering the NCAAs.