Doubters of Duke's #1 Ranking

[78Devil]

I want to first go on the record as saying that I see alot to like in this year's team, and wouldn't be surprised if we go deep into the NCAAs. But I don't understand why we are so highly ranked at this point in the season. Maybe I have been overly conservative about our schedule, but it seems to me that we haven't played anyone compared to, say, the Big East teams having to bash each other every few days. Or UNC playing both Wake and Clemson, even though they lost one of those. We haven't yet played any of the other "best" ACC teams yet -- UNC, Wake and Clemson. And yet we got every vote for #1 in the Coaches poll except 1 vote? I love Duke, yet I would still have seriously considered putting the hated UConn team ahead of us if I was voting. It seems that this year the rankings don't make sense.

Of course, this will all be resolved (one way or the other) after tomorrow's game, but I think its very interesting in the meantime.

Any thoughts?

[rickymoyer]

Duke has not beaten UNC, Wake or Clemson but they havent played them either.

They have beaten one of those very good Big East teams though. Xavier is another good team that Duke has beaten. They have beaten #10, 17 and 23. Virgina Techs only ACC lose is to Duke.

I think the Maryland game was as big of a statement win as any of the other games Duke has played. The were beating a mid-level ACC/bubble team by 60 to 20. 60 to 20. That is mind blowing. That is why there is talk of a Final Four.

[Channing]

are you familiar with how the polls tend to work? you lose you go down, you win you dont go down. At the top of the polls it is rare for team A to jump team B just because they have better wins (although it did happen with Wake earlier this year). Duke has won all their games since UMich, and the teams ahead of them lost.

[Clipsfan]

Also, even though UCon has played some tough BE competition, Duke's OOC schedule was stronger. The computers all put Duke ahead of UCon.

[Edouble]

are you familiar with how the polls tend to work? you lose you go down, you win you dont go down. At the top of the polls it is rare for team A to jump team B just because they have better wins (although it did happen with Wake earlier this year). Duke has won all their games since UMich, and the teams ahead of them lost.

Yeah 78devil, this pretty much sums it up. I was suprised by your comment that "It seems that this year the rankings don't make sense." Many years, a lot of the time they don't make sense. The polls reward teams that haven't lost recently. Historically, the voting has little to do with sitting down and taking a hard look at each team's schedule and the results and making a fresh list based on all of that information. The voters usually just move the losers down a few spots. That's how the polls work, and really, who cares? A poll ranking doesn't help you win more games or end up in the Final Four. Duke deserves the #1 spot based on how the polls work, year in and year out.

[brevity]

Also, even though UCon has played some tough BE competition, Duke's OOC schedule was stronger. The computers all put Duke ahead of UCon.

I disagree with the beginning of your statement. The front end of Connecticut's Big East schedule has been less than impressive. They're 7-1, but their best wins are at WVU, at ND, and vs. Villanova. (They lost at home to Georgetown.) No Louisville, Marquette, or Pitt. Or Providence (5-2) or Syracuse (5-3). They're in for a shock come February.

[BlueintheFace]

I want to first go on the record as saying that I see alot to like in this year's team, and wouldn't be surprised if we go deep into the NCAAs. But I don't understand why we are so highly ranked at this point in the season. Maybe I have been overly conservative about our schedule, but it seems to me that we haven't played anyone compared to, say, the Big East teams having to bash each other every few days. Or UNC playing both Wake and Clemson, even though they lost one of those. We haven't yet played any of the other "best" ACC teams yet -- UNC, Wake and Clemson. And yet we got every vote for #1 in the Coaches poll except 1 vote? I love Duke, yet I would still have seriously considered putting the hated UConn team ahead of us if I was voting. It seems that this year the rankings don't make sense.

Of course, this will all be resolved (one way or the other) after tomorrow's game, but I think its very interesting in the meantime.

Any thoughts?

Duke has the best overall resume (numbers and statistics) at this point, but that does not mean they are the best team. We'll know a lot more about that after the next 5 games.

[Cameron]

As others have pointed out, with the way the rankings system works, we have done what has been asked of us to possess the top spot nationally. And, honestly, I don't find it that hard to believe. From the quality teams we have beaten thus far, and how badly we have beaten them, we deserve to be where we are.

We thrashed ninth-ranked Purdue in West Lafayette (by 16 points), humiliated seventh-ranked Xaiver in the Meadowlands (leading by as many as 30 at one point, and winning by 18), knocked off 13-ranked Georgetown (of the MIGHTY Big East) in more than convincing fashion, and just beat Maryland by 41 while the opportunity to rise to number one in the polls swayed in the balance. That's not always a very easy to do.

I think that's sufficient of a top ranking at this point, especially since we were already number two heading into this week. Again, we have done what has been asked of us. That's how it works when it comes to rankings.

Also, we may not have hit the "strongest" part of the ACC schedule yet, but we are still 5-0 in arguably the toughest conference in America (I'm still not buying that the Big East is better overall; there are way too many terrible teams at the league's back end, and I also think the ACC has the better top four), with victories at always tough Florida State and against Virginia Tech, who's playing very tough basketball right now.

[billybreen]

I will say this: I'll feel a lot more deserving of this ranking (whatever that means) if we win tonight. Failing to defend our position at the top for even one game would be a bummer.

[slower]

then I'd say we deserve to be #1.

(Oops! Billy Breen beat me to it.)

[Cameron]

If we don't win tonight, we are going to know about it for the rest of the week.

I can already hear the "pretender" talk followed by the "same as last year?" discussions.

Sigh.

[billybreen]

And for some stupid reason, seeing this thread title has stuck that Melissa Etheridge song "And I'm the Only One" in my head, probably for the rest of the day.

[MulletMan]

If we don't win tonight, we are going to know about it for the rest of the week.

I can already hear the "pretender" talk followed by the "same as last year?" discussions.

Sigh.

I don't really think that's the case. This isn't like Belmont of WVa where we're a big favorite. This game is essentially a pick 'em, and on the road. There is a very real chance that we might lose this game. And if we do, all we will know is that Wake is as good as we are if not better, and that, not suprisingly, we won't go undefeated in ACC play.

That said, we've still got a pretty good chance to win. And if we do, we'll feel a bit better about ourselves. However, we sure won't be any kind of lock for winning anything late season or post-season and will need to continue to work and get better. That will prevent the "same as last season talk."

As for being #1... well, yeah... who cares. Here are the #1's I care about, in order of importance from least to greatest:

4. #1 in regular season polls
3. #1 seed in the NCAA tourney
2. #1 seed in the ACC tourney
1. #1 after April 6th

[dukelifer]

If we don't win tonight, we are going to know about it for the rest of the week.

I can already hear the "pretender" talk followed by the "same as last year?" discussions.

Sigh.

I think we are all agreed that winning later in the season is more important than winning now. Wake is a very good team. Duke is going on the road to play them. Wake should win this game. Whether they do or not depends on how well both teams manage the game situations. If anything, this game will show how this Duke team handles the spotlight. If they lose, we hope they will learn for the next big game. If they win, we hope they will not get complacent. After this game, there will be another huge game coming up for Duke and then another after that. This could be the first of three or maybe four games with Wake. Regardless of the outcome, Duke will be hearing it one way or another. That is what comes with being on top of the basketball world.

[killerleft]

Being No. 1 in the polls is only that. Others have mentioned the formula. Any team that gets ranked in the Top Ten early in the season has a chance to be No. 1 sometime during the season. Just play by the rules and win 10 games in a row and chances are at least fair you'll get there - particularly if your team is historically good.

[Udaman]

I know, I'll get blasted for this comment. And I don't mean to imply at all that

a) I don't like this team. I really, really do. They are the most exciting group we've had in a while. They play great defense. Coach K is finally using 8 players consistently.

or

b) That I don't think we could win the championship or get to the Final Four. I think we could. But I think things would have to break our way, because....

The point of this thread is that we are not the #1 team in the country. I've watched a lot of basketball this year, and honestly, I would say that if we were to play the following teams 10 times, we would be fortunate to win more than 3 times against any of them: UNC, Wake, Oklahoma, UConn. I also think that Pittsburgh, Louisville and Marquette would give us all that we could handle. Also, our big wins this year are looking less and less impressive (Georgetown, Purdue) and our loss to Michigan is just stunning, given some of the teams they have lost to since. The spread tonight is Duke by 1 over Wake. I think Wake will win by nearly double digits. Their speed will expose our biggest weakness (lack of such speed).

Again, this is not to say that we are nor an elite team - we are. But don't fool yourself into thinking that we are the best team out there. Ask yourself this question - would you really be that stunned if we lost in the 2nd round against a mid-major because we shot poorly from 3 point range, and they had quick guards that created easy opportunities for points? Me neither. I'm not one of those people who feels like if we don't win it all, then we haven't had a successful year. This has been a good year to date, no doubt. But I would not be surprised at all if we went 6-6 down the stretch this year.

I certainly hope I'm wrong, and maybe this is my way of lowering expectations. It's fun to be the underdog playing with a chip on our shoulder. We've seemed to need that a little bit recently.

Let the flaming begin. :) If we do win tonight, I'll be the first to come on and eat crow and admit I was wrong. And if we lose, I won't say the sky is falling, and I'll still enjoy this team just as much as I do right now.

[Faison1]

Wow, you are a glass-is-half-empty kinda person!! I normally don't post at work, but what is it with all of these threads that are talking about how overrated we are?? Who cares??? Are you just trying to make yourself feel better about a potential loss tonight?

We are bound to lose some games this year....and the possibilites are that much greater on a VERY good opponent's home court.

Give it a rest, and let the season play out before you start talking about 2nd round exits in March.........

[Karl Beem]

Is there some particular reason why we should care? :confused:

I'm referring to the initial poster.

[CameronCrazy'11]

http://users.chariot.net.au/~misterx/steve/images/cry_me_a_river.jpg

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

This is the second thread based on the same idea. I, for one, don't take the polls during the season very seriously. More important is preparation for the next game.

[Tim1515]

I know, I'll get blasted for this comment. And I don't mean to imply at all that

a) I don't like this team. I really, really do. They are the most exciting group we've had in a while. They play great defense. Coach K is finally using 8 players consistently.

or

b) That I don't think we could win the championship or get to the Final Four. I think we could. But I think things would have to break our way, because....

The point of this thread is that we are not the #1 team in the country. I've watched a lot of basketball this year, and honestly, I would say that if we were to play the following teams 10 times, we would be fortunate to win more than 3 times against any of them: UNC, Wake, Oklahoma, UConn. I also think that Pittsburgh, Louisville and Marquette would give us all that we could handle. Also, our big wins this year are looking less and less impressive (Georgetown, Purdue) and our loss to Michigan is just stunning, given some of the teams they have lost to since. The spread tonight is Duke by 1 over Wake. I think Wake will win by nearly double digits. Their speed will expose our biggest weakness (lack of such speed).

Again, this is not to say that we are nor an elite team - we are. But don't fool yourself into thinking that we are the best team out there. Ask yourself this question - would you really be that stunned if we lost in the 2nd round against a mid-major because we shot poorly from 3 point range, and they had quick guards that created easy opportunities for points? Me neither. I'm not one of those people who feels like if we don't win it all, then we haven't had a successful year. This has been a good year to date, no doubt. But I would not be surprised at all if we went 6-6 down the stretch this year.

I certainly hope I'm wrong, and maybe this is my way of lowering expectations. It's fun to be the underdog playing with a chip on our shoulder. We've seemed to need that a little bit recently.

Let the flaming begin. :) If we do win tonight, I'll be the first to come on and eat crow and admit I was wrong. And if we lose, I won't say the sky is falling, and I'll still enjoy this team just as much as I do right now.

I understand what you're saying...and no...i don't think we're the best team in the country. I also wouldn't be surprised if Wake beat us by 10 points.

I do disagree with us losing to a mid-major in the tournament. We don't "rely" on our 3 pointers to win...it's just if they fall we can beat anyone.

This team is better defensively then last year...we rebound much better and we have 3 legit scoring options in (Jon, Gerald, Kyle) so even if one or two wear down we can score. Z and LT are much improved...no they're not stars but they're not making mistakes and haven't given up big games inside yet.

We have UNC twice, Wake twice, Clemson, Miami and BC left on the schedule...it won't be easy...but i do think this team is good enough to comfortably make it to the sweet 16...from there it's anyone's guess.

[Atldukie79]

Why the bad karma?

By definition, you cannot be underrated when you are #1...therefore the polls are either just right or you are, in fact, overrated. However, I do think we are deserving of the #1 rating based on results this season.

We are not a dominating choicefor #1. I concede that there are 5-8 teams who could finish the regular season as #1. I think you are a bit too gloomy in your forecast that we wouldn't fair too well if we played 10 games against the best teams.

Wake is good. I expect tonight's game is a toss up. That is what the sports lines are saying. This reminds me of 1986 when there were 3 dominating ACC teams and no one could predict which would ultimately prevail. UNC and Ga Tech were the early favorites if I recall (Jim Summers????) Duke was too small, etc.

But Duke prevailed that year and we can do so this year. Do not underestimate the maturity, communication on "D" and the coach.
Wake can go of on any given night, but if I were in their shows I would worry about turnovers.

Even if Duke should lose 3 more games to close the regular season...I do not think we will flame out early in the tournament. This is not last year's model. This team is a lock for sweet 16, a likely great 8, and no surprise in the FF.

[MulletMan]

I've watched a lot of basketball this year, and honestly, I would say that if we were to play the following teams 10 times, we would be fortunate to win more than 3 times against any of them: UNC, Wake, Oklahoma, UConn. I also think that Pittsburgh, Louisville and Marquette would give us all that we could handle.

I really feel the need to point out the flaws in this arguement. UConn lost to G'Town just before we beat them. Wake lost to VT shortly after we beat them. Carolina lost to BC who struggled to beat Maryland last night... who we beat by 41. Louisville has lost to Minnesota, UNLV and Western Kentucky. Marquette lost to (MY) Dayton Flyers at home by 14, lost to a struggling Tenessee team and has a "marquee" win over Notre Dame. The most similar team here is Oklahoma, who, like us, had an inexplicable road loss to Arkansas, but beat Davidson (by 4 while we won by 13) and Purdue (by 5 at home while we won by 16 on the road). So you're telling me that from that, Oklahoma would beat us 7 out of 10 times?

So while rankings at this time of the year seem pointless, and I'm not going to argue wether or not we are number 1 right now, I will say that to randomly pick a bunch of teams who you "think" are better than Duke and say that if we played them 10 times we'd be lucky to go 3-7 seems a little off base. Especially when the actual games played this season don't seem to supprt that arguement.

Good thing for us, we'll be seeing some of those teams real soon!

[bird]

IAs for being #1... well, yeah... who cares. Here are the #1's I care about, in order of importance from least to greatest:

4. #1 in regular season polls
3. #1 seed in the NCAA tourney
2. #1 seed in the ACC tourney
1. #1 after April 6th

I might put a regional championship aka final four appearance above No. 1 seed in the ACC tourney, aka regular season ACC Championship. But I too think it is more important win the ACC regular season championship than to win the No. 1 regular season poll or a No. 1 seed in the NCAA tourney.

I don't put much stock in winning the ACC tourney unless it complements the regular season ACC championship. Getting both really says something about a team.

I hold my opinion despite the effect of expansion; ruining the double round-robin and degrading the regular season championship were two top negatives of expansion . . ..

[jv001]

I know, I'll get blasted for this comment. And I don't mean to imply at all that

a) I don't like this team. I really, really do. They are the most exciting group we've had in a while. They play great defense. Coach K is finally using 8 players consistently.

or

b) That I don't think we could win the championship or get to the Final Four. I think we could. But I think things would have to break our way, because....

The point of this thread is that we are not the #1 team in the country. I've watched a lot of basketball this year, and honestly, I would say that if we were to play the following teams 10 times, we would be fortunate to win more than 3 times against any of them: UNC, Wake, Oklahoma, UConn. I also think that Pittsburgh, Louisville and Marquette would give us all that we could handle. Also, our big wins this year are looking less and less impressive (Georgetown, Purdue) and our loss to Michigan is just stunning, given some of the teams they have lost to since. The spread tonight is Duke by 1 over Wake. I think Wake will win by nearly double digits. Their speed will expose our biggest weakness (lack of such speed).

Again, this is not to say that we are nor an elite team - we are. But don't fool yourself into thinking that we are the best team out there. Ask yourself this question - would you really be that stunned if we lost in the 2nd round against a mid-major because we shot poorly from 3 point range, and they had quick guards that created easy opportunities for points? Me neither. I'm not one of those people who feels like if we don't win it all, then we haven't had a successful year. This has been a good year to date, no doubt. But I would not be surprised at all if we went 6-6 down the stretch this year.

I certainly hope I'm wrong, and maybe this is my way of lowering expectations. It's fun to be the underdog playing with a chip on our shoulder. We've seemed to need that a little bit recently.

Let the flaming begin. :) If we do win tonight, I'll be the first to come on and eat crow and admit I was wrong. And if we lose, I won't say the sky is falling, and I'll still enjoy this team just as much as I do right now.

That we don't have to play all the teams listed to win the National Tournament. What we have to do is play good basketball for about 3 weeks and catch a few breaks. But that's the same formula for any team that wins the title. I know that many people are concerned about our poor play in the NCAA tourney the last couple of years, but I believe this team is different. Yes and I know if we lose tonight, those same people will say "I told you so". But just remember the year is still young and we have a long way to go. So let's enjoy this team. Go Duke!

[crimsonandblue]

I haven't watched a lot of basketball this year. But I've watched a bunch of Big XII basketball. OU is good. But their guards (Austin Johnson, Willie Warren, Cade Davis and wing Tony Crocker) aren't anything that could hold off Duke's pressure. Blake Griffin is the best player in the country, as far as I'm concerned, but he's not so dominating that he'd be able to single-handedly give OU a 70% chance to beat Duke.

I know there are a lot of concerns over Duke's past performance in the tournament, but college basketball, nationwide, just isn't that good this year. There are maybe 15 teams that deserve to be acknowledged in any sort of poll, and then there's the mushy middle and then there's garbage.

Right now, I think Duke is playing better basketball than anyone else.

[Reddevil]

This is one of those seasons where there are no dominating giants like some of the Duke, Georgetown, UNLV, etc. (UConn, unc - ugh!) teams have been in the fairly recent past. There are several vulnerable giants of which Duke is one. They are as deserving of the top ranking right now as the previous vulnerable giant was, and the next one will be. After all, it's still January and it will get sorted out in due time. I say enjoy the ride, and relish the ranking. So what if they've been here a thousand times before. It is a very special honor which has been earned. It will undoubtably switch hands several more times, and Duke will be in the mix. I love seasons like this where a dozen or so teams could take the cake. After all, many thought this season was going to be dictated by a dominating giant, and that is not the case - even if the ungulates prevail.

[JasonEvans]

Sigh, this thread is so predictable. I would add that if Duke wins tonight it will neither prove that we are certainly the best team in the land nor will a loss prove that we are not the best. I do think we have enough data AT THIS POINT IN THE YEAR to conclude that Duke is AMONG THE ELITE teams in the country and has as good a chance as anyone of making the Final Four and having a legit shot at the national title. I am not sure anything really matters beyond that.

But, seeing as I am in a playful mood, here is a question for the folks wringing their hands at Duke not being all that good...

If Duke is not #1, who deserves to be ranked ahead of us?


Clearly, any team with a better record than Duke, a team with fewer losses, could be ranked ahead of us.
Obviously, a team ahead of us in the Sagarin rankings might deserve to be #1.
Similarly, a team ranked higher than us in the RPI could have a claim on #1.
Many hoops watchers prefer the Pomeroy rankings. Any team ranked ahead of Duke in that poll could be the #1 team.


Well, now we have the criteria for teams that should be ahead of Duke. Ready? Here are the teams that qualify under any of the above 4 very compelling criteria.





-Jason "crickets chirping" Evans

[CameronCrazy'11]

#1 isn't about who the "best" team is, since that's impossible to tell right now. It's about who has performed best in the season to date. Most everyone (AP voters, Coaches Poll voters, Pomeroy, Sagarin, the RPI) seems to think that's Duke. Are we clearly "better" than team's #2-6 or 7? Who knows. That's not what the polls are meant to tell you.

[mus074]

If we win tonight, we are not somehow better than we were, and if we lose, we were not somehow worse. What this team is at its heart is a team that leaves it all on the floor and is not satisfied to be merely good. Whether that will be good enough to be playing in April or not, we get the extreme pleasure of finding out over the next 2+ months. That's why they play, and why we watch.

[roywhite]

If we win tonight, we are not somehow better than we were, and if we lose, we were not somehow worse. What this team is at its heart is a team that leaves it all on the floor and is not satisfied to be merely good. Whether that will be good enough to be playing in April or not, we get the extreme pleasure of finding out over the next 2+ months. That's why they play, and why we watch.

Well, perhaps, but this game should measure our progress well:

We're playing a very talented team, with long, athletic inside players
We're playing in a hostile environment
We're playing against an opponent that will be pumped up, and has played us very tough in the past

Good checkpoint, and should also inform the coaches about what areas to focus on going toward tournament time

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Well, perhaps, but this game should measure our progress well:

We're playing a very talented team, with long, athletic inside players
We're playing in a hostile environment
We're playing against an opponent that will be pumped up, and has played us very tough in the past

Good checkpoint, and should also inform the coaches about what areas to focus on going toward tournament time

Good analysis, roywhite. You covered the important points without "bird walking" into such topics as ratings and their literal or symbolic meanings.

[Chicago 1995]

Who cares if we should or shouldn't be ranked number 1?

This isn't football. We'll get to prove our mettle on the court in March.

I'd much rather be one of the last four standing (or better, of course) than tally another empty number 1 ranking in January.

[hurleyfor3]

Is it possible to peak in January and again in March? I guess the 2001 team did it. 1992 sort of did it, too.

[WiJoe]

All they're good for is discussion. If polls were toilet paper ...

[FireOgilvie]

Heavy lies the crown.

Onto UConn...

[brevity]

Heavy lies the crown.

Onto UConn...

Not that it matters -- after beating DePaul this weekend, they'll lose at least one of their next 4 games -- but Connecticut is not the best one-loss team. Based on the season so far, you could make a good argument for Oklahoma or Wake Forest. Here's hoping either makes the jump.

[FireOgilvie]

Not that it matters -- after beating DePaul this weekend, they'll lose at least one of their next 4 games -- but Connecticut is not the best one-loss team. Based on the season so far, you could make a good argument for Oklahoma or Wake Forest. Here's hoping either makes the jump.

UConn is good. I think they're the team I would least like to play in the NCAA Tournament. Thabeet completely changes the game with his size and reach. They aren't playing anywhere near their ceiling yet either.

Oklahoma would have 2-3 more losses already if they played in the Big East or ACC. I think Griffin is the best player in the country, but their guard play is somewhat suspect.

Wake Forest is legit. They could easily be number 1, but they showed their youth in the Va. Tech game and won't jump from 4 or 6 or whatever to 1.

[-bdbd]

Though saddened by the close loss at Wake, in an odd way it made me feel vindicated re. Duke's high rating this season. Clearly they played Wake straight-up for 40 minutes in their own gym, and NOBODY is going to claim the refs were helping the boys in black and blue tonight.... Wake is clearly a good team, but clearly so are we. On ESPN Vitale showed a list of about 6 "legit #1 seed contenders." Duke obviously belongs on that list. I like our chances as much as anybody's...now if only someone else will come to play besides just Kyle and Gerald! If 1-2 others regain their stride, then this could be a pretty good team in March!

-BDBD :mad:

[Bob Green]

I like our chances as much as anybody's...now if only someone else will come to play besides just Kyle and Gerald! If 1-2 others regain their stride, then this could be a pretty good team in March!

-BDBD :mad:

I'm extremely optimistic that Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith, and Greg Paulus will bring it this season. This is a really good team.

[JasonEvans]

I would just like to point out that, in the wake of the Wake loss, Duke's Sagarin rating remains #1.

Ken Pomeroy has not updated his ratings yet with last night's games. Duke's numbers were:

pyth- .9865 adjusted O- 118.0/6 adjusted D- 81.2/2

I will be interested in seeing if we actually improve a bit as a result of last night's loss.

-Jason "that game only confirmed that we are among the best-- we shot terrible and still were just one screwy play from winning" Evans

[JasonEvans]

I would just like to point out that, in the wake of the Wake loss, Duke's Sagarin rating remains #1.

Ken Pomeroy has not updated his ratings yet with last night's games. Duke's numbers were:

pyth- .9865 adjusted O- 118.0/6 adjusted D- 81.2/2

I will be interested in seeing if we actually improve a bit as a result of last night's loss.

-Jason "that game only confirmed that we are among the best-- we shot terrible and still were just one screwy play from winning" Evans

As I suspected, we remain the #1 team in the Sagarin rankings.


pyth- .9855 Adjusted O- 117.5/7 Adjusted D- 81.4/2

--Jason "in other words, the Wake loss did not damage at all to our rep as one of the elite teams in the land" Evans