Houston Aubrey Coleman stomps Chase Budinger on Face [Archive]

ForeverBlowingBubbles

01-26-2009, 09:45 AM

Smitty1911

01-26-2009, 09:49 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxbEOaF5A1s

He also issued a statement of apology and claimed it was an accident with his coach backing him

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3860099

The Youtube page to me involves some important observations.

1) The Youtube commenters for the most part have about half a mind.

2) Pretty much no one with even half of mind believes for a second that Colemans act was anything short of 100% intentional.

3) His teammates were laughing, joking, and I believe there might have actually been a high five involved.

My list of to-do's today includes keeping tabs on suspension news. If he doesn't get at least one game (preferable 2-3), I'll be disgusted. Reminds me of Haynesworth of the Titans stomping on that Cowboys player's face a couple of years ago.

jv001

01-26-2009, 09:56 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxbEOaF5A1s

He also issued a statement of apology and claimed it was an accident with his coach backing him

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3860099

The Youtube page to me involves some important observations.

1) The Youtube commenters for the most part have about half a mind.

2) Pretty much no one with even half of mind believes for a second that Colemans act was anything short of 100% intentional.

3) His teammates were laughing, joking, and I believe there might have actually been a high five involved.

Coleman is either stupid or a dirty player. Or both. It looked like he knew exactly what he was doing, but tried to make it look like an accident. Poor acting job and he should be suspended for atleast one game. Go Duke!

billybreen

01-26-2009, 10:29 AM

Coleman is either stupid or a dirty player. Or both. It looked like he knew exactly what he was doing, but tried to make it look like an accident. Poor acting job and he should be suspended for atleast one game. Go Duke!

Should Laettner have been ejected from the 92 regional finals for stomping on Timberlake's (Aminu, not Justin) chest? Basketball history would be very different.

Yeah, Coleman got Budinger's face, but that didn't look any more or less premeditated than Laettner's stomp.

ForeverBlowingBubbles

01-26-2009, 10:41 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AwYVTB2rZw

The Laettner stomp was weak compared to Coleman's attempt. It also was aimed towards the torso which is not the Face/Adam's apple area. I think it is worse and should be subjected to harsher punishment.

CLT Devil

01-26-2009, 10:59 AM

Deron Washington anyone? Chris Paul?

That one was pretty intentional...but I'll never forget the look on 'The Jules From Harlem Destined For Stardom's' face after he got tapped in his man-bits.

allenmurray

01-26-2009, 11:07 AM

Even Aminu Timberlake knew that Laettner wasn't trying to hurt him. "To me, it always looked worse than it really was." - Aminu Timberlake ** In fact, after the "stomp", Timberlake got up, laughing and clapping. He was put in the game to play physical against Laettner, and achieved his goal - to egg Laettner on to doing something stupid (that almost cost Duke the game).

Just compare the reaction of Timberlake and Budinger after the respective "stomps" and you'll see the difference. Timberlake knew Laetnner was not really trying to hurt him, and that he had achieved his goal. Budinger clearly felt assaulted.

** http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/college/news/2001/01/17/mailbag/

billybreen

01-26-2009, 11:11 AM

Fair responses. I agree there's a difference in degree of potential injury.

dball

01-26-2009, 11:20 AM

Should Laettner have been ejected from the 92 regional finals for stomping on Timberlake's (Aminu, not Justin) chest? Basketball history would be very different.

Yeah, Coleman got Budinger's face, but that didn't look any more or less premeditated than Laettner's stomp.

Laettner didn't stomp anyone. He never placed any weight on his foot.

Contrast this with Coleman's foot coming down on Budinger's face. Note Budinger's reaction as opposed to Timberlake's (laughing and clapping).

Laettner's play while boneheaded was little more than a tap and received an appropriate technical foul.

ncexnyc

01-26-2009, 11:28 AM

It's funny how some people view things when it's one of our players involved whether it's on the receiving end or the giving end of an unsportsmanlike play.;)

allenmurray

01-26-2009, 11:36 AM

It's funny how some people view things when it's one of our players involved whether it's on the receiving end or the giving end of an unsportsmanlike play.;)

that would be true except it is not just a matter of how Duke fans view it, but also how Timberlake viewed it himself. He was on record a number of times (in addition to the link I provided) as saying that he knew Laettner wasn't trying to hurt him.

whereinthehellami

01-26-2009, 01:13 PM

that would be true except it is not just a matter of how Duke fans view it, but also how Timberlake viewed it himself. He was on record a number of times (in addition to the link I provided) as saying that he knew Laettner wasn't trying to hurt him.

Just to play devils advocate. How would he know what Laettner was trying to do? How do you stomp someone without trying to hurt them? Is it possible? A controlled stomp? Is that worse than a lost in the moment, passionate stomp?

jv001

01-26-2009, 01:17 PM

billybreen

01-26-2009, 01:20 PM

Personally I would have called charging on the Kentucky guy. Go Duke!

Well played ;)

killerleft

01-26-2009, 03:10 PM

Just to play devils advocate. How would he know what Laettner was trying to do? How do you stomp someone without trying to hurt them? Is it possible? A controlled stomp? Is that worse than a lost in the moment, passionate stomp?

First you find someone biased enough against Duke to call it a stomp. I would call a stomp putting all your weight into the footin'. What Timberlake got was the I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.footin'est stomp ever, I guess.

I guess you could call it "the old soft shoe".

Edouble

01-26-2009, 07:23 PM

Let's put an end to this inane argument once and for all and call in the most unbiased source possible: The American Heritage College Dictionary.

stomp v. To tread or trample heavily or violently on.

Going by the dictionary definition, I think even Ashley Judd would have to concede that Laettner didn't stomp on Timberlake. You might call Laettner's single step a tread, but it was neither heavy nor violent.

Smitty1911

01-26-2009, 07:38 PM

brevity

01-26-2009, 07:38 PM

I am so tired of this 17-year-old controversy. It was half a life ago for me, but that sequence is burned in my brain.

Laettner pressed his shoe against Timberlake's chest to make a statement from player to player, knowing full well that a technical foul would likely result. More than a tap, less than a stomp. He wasn't being clumsy, nor was he trying to cause pain. We may never know what Laettner was thinking at that moment, but we can tell that he meant to do exactly what he did. No more, no less.

I know we're going to revisit this incident every time any player's foot steps on another player's body, and I'm okay with that. But let's steer clear of re-opening the case, and file it under historical events that are well-settled.

ForeverBlowingBubbles

01-26-2009, 08:24 PM

1 game is a joke. A complete, absolute joke.

killerleft

01-27-2009, 09:38 AM

If Cherokee Parks or Thomas Hill had done it, the "stomp legend" would never have occurred.

JG Nothing

01-27-2009, 10:56 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxbEOaF5A1s

The Youtube page to me involves some important observations.

2) Pretty much no one with even half of mind believes for a second that Colemans act was anything short of 100% intentional.

3) His teammates were laughing, joking, and I believe there might have actually been a high five involved.

2) Coleman's knee buckles as soon as his foot makes contact with Budinger. It doesn't seem like he was bracing to step on his face. Also, I cannot imagine that someone would deliberately try to place their entire weight on someone's head. Does Coleman have a history of this type of behavior? I think Coleman is definitely guilty of reckless and dangerous disregard by trying to step over Budinger's face (I guess that's a show of disrespect or something), but I don't think the contact was intentional.

3) I read a comment somewhere that the clip showing Coleman and his teammates occurred ten minutes after the incident (it took the referees ten minutes to decide how to handle the matter). It was not a spontaneous celebration, but just his teammates offering support after Coleman was thrown out of the game.

billybreen

01-27-2009, 10:58 AM

2) Coleman's knee buckles as soon as his foot makes contact with Budinger. It doesn't seem like he was bracing to step on his face. Also, I cannot imagine that someone would deliberately try to place their entire weight on someone's head. Does Coleman have a history of this type of behavior? I think Coleman is definitely guilty of reckless and dangerous disregard by trying to step over Budinger's face (I guess that's a show of disrespect or something), but I don't think the contact was intentional.

3) I read a comment somewhere that the clip showing Coleman and his teammates occurred ten minutes after the incident (it took the referees ten minutes to decide how to handle the matter). It was not a spontaneous celebration, but just his teammates offering support after Coleman was thrown out of the game.

I agree with these. I don't think he was trying to stomp his face and cause injury, and I could easily imagine laughing after seeing a replay without implying malice or premeditation.

ncexnyc

01-27-2009, 11:08 AM

that would be true except it is not just a matter of how Duke fans view it, but also how Timberlake viewed it himself. He was on record a number of times (in addition to the link I provided) as saying that he knew Laettner wasn't trying to hurt him.
You can try to rationalize unsportsmanlike play all you want. Again it comes down to a biased view of the event. I'm sure we could ask 100 UNC fans and then 100 Duke fans about G's flying elbow to Hasbro's nose and the view on that play will be pretty evenly divided along fan lines.

dball

01-27-2009, 11:29 AM

2) Coleman's knee buckles as soon as his foot makes contact with Budinger. It doesn't seem like he was bracing to step on his face. Also, I cannot imagine that someone would deliberately try to place their entire weight on someone's head. Does Coleman have a history of this type of behavior? I think Coleman is definitely guilty of reckless and dangerous disregard by trying to step over Budinger's face (I guess that's a show of disrespect or something), but I don't think the contact was intentional.

Coleman continues to look straight ahead when stepping on Budinger. This rather awkward stare even after he steps on the other guy makes it seem deliberate though I have no way of knowing his intention. Wouldn't the natural tendency be to look down if one trips over something one didn't know was there?

whereinthehellami

01-27-2009, 11:34 AM

He also has to raise his foot to step on Chase's head. He got lucky with 1 game.

Huh?

01-27-2009, 12:01 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxbEOaF5A1s

He also issued a statement of apology and claimed it was an accident with his coach backing him

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3860099

The Youtube page to me involves some important observations.

1) The Youtube commenters for the most part have about half a mind.

2) Pretty much no one with even half of mind believes for a second that Colemans act was anything short of 100% intentional.

3) His teammates were laughing, joking, and I believe there might have actually been a high five involved.

I definitely saw a high five, he should be gone for the year. Anyways, he can enjoy watching Budinger in the NBA one day while he turns the sign to say STOP or SLOW.

SupaDave

01-27-2009, 12:39 PM

SupaDave

01-27-2009, 12:46 PM

Laettner didn't stomp anyone. He never placed any weight on his foot.

Contrast this with Coleman's foot coming down on Budinger's face. Note Budinger's reaction as opposed to Timberlake's (laughing and clapping).

Laettner's play while boneheaded was little more than a tap and received an appropriate technical foul.

I think this is b/c the aggressor is different in these situations which noone has mentioned. Timberlake was out there for a reaction from Laetner and so he clapped b/c he was succesful. Chase was playing aggressive defense and then felt like he was being 'paid back' while on his back. It's a different situation.

allenmurray

01-27-2009, 12:52 PM

You can try to rationalize unsportsmanlike play all you want. Again it comes down to a biased view of the event. I'm sure we could ask 100 UNC fans and then 100 Duke fans about G's flying elbow to Hasbro's nose and the view on that play will be pretty evenly divided along fan lines.

You have drawn a wholly inaccurate analogy. The more accurate analogy would be if you asked Henderson and Hansbro. I was not speaking about the difference in reaction of Duke vs. Kentucky fans (or Duke vs. UNC fans). I was speaking of the actual player who got "stomped". He is probably a better judge of the intentionality than were the onlookers. Unless of course that you think Aminu Timberlake was a closet Duke fan, biased towards Duke, and that is why he has publicly stated that he hardly though it was a stomp or carried any intention to hurt someone.

JG Nothing

01-27-2009, 01:27 PM

Here is a video interview with Coleman after the incident. Scroll down a little bit.
http://blogs.chron.com/cougars/

sagegrouse

01-27-2009, 01:40 PM

My vote on the videotape evidence is that the foul, while a real blow, was not intentional. He was concentrating on the play and trying to keep his balance. (Kinda like Henderson vs. Hansbrough.) In contrast, Christian's foul against Timberlake was clearly intentional, but it couldn't have hurt a flea.

sagegrouse

ncexnyc

01-27-2009, 01:58 PM

You have drawn a wholly inaccurate analogy. The more accurate analogy would be if you asked Henderson and Hansbro. I was not speaking about the difference in reaction of Duke vs. Kentucky fans (or Duke vs. UNC fans). I was speaking of the actual player who got "stomped". He is probably a better judge of the intentionality than were the onlookers. Unless of course that you think Aminu Timberlake was a closet Duke fan, biased towards Duke, and that is why he has publicly stated that he hardly though it was a stomp or carried any intention to hurt someone.
I'm not sure why you continue to sugarcoat an unsportsmanlike play. If you want to split hairs then fine, continue to do so. Timberlake feels there wasn't any intent to injure, but he knows it was deliberate. That's the bottom line plain and simple.

Fish80

01-27-2009, 02:13 PM

I'm not sure why you continue to sugarcoat an unsportsmanlike play. If you want to split hairs then fine, continue to do so. Timberlake feels there wasn't any intent to injure, but he knows it was deliberate. That's the bottom line plain and simple.

Yes, it was unsportsmanlike, and wrong. Duke and Laettner have paid a heavy price over the years. But it also appears there was no intent to harm and little likelihood of harm.

Many far more dangerous plays get little or no penalty nor subsequent attention. For example, last year versus VTech, DeMarcus was badly undercut while attempting a dunk. He could have been maimed for life. DeMarc jumped up, furious, and said something uncomplimentary. For that he was T'd up. And no foul was called on the perpetrator of the heinous undercut.

Deliberate plays that risk serious bodily harm should be dealt with very sternly in an attempt to deter such behavior.

killerleft

01-27-2009, 02:17 PM

I'm not sure why you continue to sugarcoat an unsportsmanlike play. If you want to split hairs then fine, continue to do so. Timberlake feels there wasn't any intent to injure, but he knows it was deliberate. That's the bottom line plain and simple.

You seem to have a need to hear this: "Christian Laettner's intentional footing of Mr. Timberlake was a dastardly act. No pain was inflicted, but he should be split like a hair for what might as well have been a murder. Surely he should have been removed from the game in handcuffs and never allowed to play basketball again."

Personally, I find that players who scream in somebody's ear after a dunk are more unsportsmanlike than the Great Laettner's action, but that's just me.

Laettner got a technical foul, deserved it, was college basketball's greatest tournament player ever, end of story.

ForeverBlowingBubbles

01-27-2009, 03:02 PM

billybreen

01-27-2009, 03:44 PM

pause the video at second 11. If you pause it just right you can see Coleman steps down with his right foot almost directly inline with his left - but yet he raised his right leg like as he would if was going to step over something.

Clearly. Because he knew Budinger was on the ground and in his path. That doesn't mean he intentionally stepped on his head. Now, it could mean that he didn't mind if he 'accidentally' stepped on his head . . .

killerleft

01-27-2009, 04:24 PM

Hard to tell on the replay, but it is certainly possible that Coleman was "accidentally" trying to give Buddinger a fist in the face during the charge. The little "high five" after the ruckus would seem to confirm the intent of the "step".

Proof of intent is impossible, but not one thing in the video would suggest to me that Coleman looked down, saw Buddinger, continued to walk toward him, and stepped down hard without looking, and did not intend to do it.

slower

01-27-2009, 05:19 PM

Coleman continues to look straight ahead when stepping on Budinger. This rather awkward stare even after he steps on the other guy makes it seem deliberate though I have no way of knowing his intention. Wouldn't the natural tendency be to look down if one trips over something one didn't know was there?

That's also my opinion. And if he REALLY didn't mean to step on the guy's grill, an immediate apology would (or should) have been forthcoming.

Hey, I understand that basketball is a physical and even violent sport, but this business of legalized mugging is just way out of hand. There are legions of guys who play at the YMCA or run down at the local courts with the subconscious intent to dish out some serious punishment or knock out a few teeth "accidentally".

And honestly, that's what some "fans" want to see more than anything else. Makes me sick.

BobbyFan

01-27-2009, 11:10 PM

calltheobvious

01-27-2009, 11:57 PM

I'm not sure why you continue to sugarcoat an unsportsmanlike play. If you want to split hairs then fine, continue to do so. Timberlake feels there wasn't any intent to injure, but he knows it was deliberate. That's the bottom line plain and simple.

Why? Because you say so?

You're committing what I'm going to call the Bilas critics fallacy, after Jay's cogent riposte to criticism of his supposed anti-Duke bias: you're equating being biased with being wrong. I'm more than willing to concede that as a Duke fan, I am predisposed to lean towards Duke if the evidence is near 50/50. That's a meaningful working definition of bias.

But that's not what's going on here. You've decided that there is a moral equivalency between Laettner's act and Coleman's. Allenmurray has made a very clear, concise case highlighting what he believes are some very substantive differences between the two cases. You reject his purported differentiating principles, which is your prerogative. But, rather than respond to allen's points regarding intent, force, and harm, you've been completely dismissive. Your responses have essentially consisted of "I'm right and you're wrong. And your refusal to simply concede the point is evidence of your own (nefarious) bias."

But in fact your repeated begging of the question seems to be evidence of your own anti-substantive-debate bias.

ncexnyc

01-28-2009, 01:36 AM

It's funny how some people view things when it's one of our players involved whether it's on the receiving end or the giving end of an unsportsmanlike play.;)
Here is my exact original statement. I posted it after reading several of the comments on this thread. My post didn't quote anyone, yet one member felt it necessary to defend their position. That my friends is exactly where I'm coming from with my post. So many people on this board have trouble viewing things evenhandedly. An unsportsmanlike play is just that. Why is it necessary to try and justify one, because it wasn't as servere as another? Earlier this season one of our kids (Kyle?) took a servere fall while attempting a breakaway dunk. Many of the board members were ready to tar and feather the Saluki responsible for the foul, again when it's our kid taking the hit we're screaming for blood. What was more than likely an overly agressive play by a hardnosed kid, was categorized as a thug out to harm someone.

I realize this is a Duke board, but the bias can be somewhat extreme. Checkout the pre-game thread prior to our re-match with Michigan. Lots of we're going to beat them badly, because we did it before and we're going to gain from have played them previously. My post is there ridiculing that train of thought, it's just foolish to believe that other teams won't make adjustments and won't improve.

If this isn't enough to convince you, take a look at many of the posts made during the off-season. Duke's players will all be better compared to last season. The year of extra experience will be huge. All comments made is if every other team in the ACC was stuck in a time warp and we were the only team moving forward.

billybreen

01-28-2009, 07:50 AM

Here is my exact original statement. I posted it after reading several of the comments on this thread. My post didn't quote anyone, yet one member felt it necessary to defend their position. That my friends is exactly where I'm coming from with my post. So many people on this board have trouble viewing things evenhandedly. An unsportsmanlike play is just that. Why is it necessary to try and justify one, because it wasn't as servere as another? Earlier this season one of our kids (Kyle?) took a servere fall while attempting a breakaway dunk. Many of the board members were ready to tar and feather the Saluki responsible for the foul, again when it's our kid taking the hit we're screaming for blood. What was more than likely an overly agressive play by a hardnosed kid, was categorized as a thug out to harm someone.

I realize this is a Duke board, but the bias can be somewhat extreme. Checkout the pre-game thread prior to our re-match with Michigan. Lots of we're going to beat them badly, because we did it before and we're going to gain from have played them previously. My post is there ridiculing that train of thought, it's just foolish to believe that other teams won't make adjustments and won't improve.

If this isn't enough to convince you, take a look at many of the posts made during the off-season. Duke's players will all be better compared to last season. The year of extra experience will be huge. All comments made is if every other team in the ACC was stuck in a time warp and we were the only team moving forward.

I hear you, but you're basically just describing, you know, fandom.

calltheobvious

01-28-2009, 09:03 AM

Here is my exact original statement. I posted it after reading several of the comments on this thread. My post didn't quote anyone, yet one member felt it necessary to defend their position. That my friends is exactly where I'm coming from with my post. So many people on this board have trouble viewing things evenhandedly. An unsportsmanlike play is just that. Why is it necessary to try and justify one, because it wasn't as servere as another? Earlier this season one of our kids (Kyle?) took a servere fall while attempting a breakaway dunk. Many of the board members were ready to tar and feather the Saluki responsible for the foul, again when it's our kid taking the hit we're screaming for blood. What was more than likely an overly agressive play by a hardnosed kid, was categorized as a thug out to harm someone.

I realize this is a Duke board, but the bias can be somewhat extreme. Checkout the pre-game thread prior to our re-match with Michigan. Lots of we're going to beat them badly, because we did it before and we're going to gain from have played them previously. My post is there ridiculing that train of thought, it's just foolish to believe that other teams won't make adjustments and won't improve.

If this isn't enough to convince you, take a look at many of the posts made during the off-season. Duke's players will all be better compared to last season. The year of extra experience will be huge. All comments made is if every other team in the ACC was stuck in a time warp and we were the only team moving forward.

I think you should petition the NCAA basketball rules committee to stop being so mealy-mouthed, because clearly, since all unsportsmanlike acts are created equal, there's no need whatsoever for the word "flagrant" to appear anywhere in the rulebook.

You're painting a picture of this board being a Gothic wonderland in which almost everybody thinks every aspect of the Duke men's basketball team is just rosy, that our coaches and players are perfect. But just twenty minutes spent scrolling through the threads here would make it very clear that many, many Duke fans have no problem whatsoever being critical of their own.

Your strawman is quite robust already. No need to keep stuffing him.

allenmurray

01-28-2009, 09:29 AM

I'm not sure why you continue to sugarcoat an unsportsmanlike play. If you want to split hairs then fine, continue to do so. Timberlake feels there wasn't any intent to injure, but he knows it was deliberate. That's the bottom line plain and simple.

You refuse to see that there might be a legitimate difference between a fan's interpretation of an event that they viewed a distance and a player's interpretation of an event that actually happened to them.

The difference between "deliberate" and "intent to injure" is the difference between a technical foul and an ejection. Oh yeah, Laettner got a technical foul, and Coleman an ejection. Sounds like both were handled just about right.