Help for Hendo

[gofurman]

We need something out of Scheyer soon... I love what Henderson can do - create his own shot and boy is he fun to watch...

But he needs help... Starting to see the old "JJ watching" thing a little as everyone spreads and watches what G can do

We need our man Scheyer to step back up...
Also Zoubs - how about put those close shots in? Good stuff later in the game but those first few minutes were painful where Zoub caught the ball two feet from the basket and before he could get it up there someone came from behind to cleanly block

[EarlJam]

But he needs help... Starting to see the old "JJ watching" thing a little as everyone spreads and watches what G can do



I disagree a bit on the Scheyer thing. I think he's among one of the smartest, most underrated playmakers in the country - and is clutch. Every player goes through a slump at some point in the season. Jon will be fine and will be huge for us down the stretch.

As to your point about "JJ watching" beginning to happen, I think that is a most excellent point and we need to nip it immediately. NIP IT!

Go Duke!

-EarlJam

[buddy]

Jon is 7-33 for the last 4 games (1-6, 2-7, 3-13, 1-7), 4-17 from 3. That will not cut it if it continues. I hope it is just a slump, and not him wearing down physically. He left several shots short last night. That's usually a sign of tired legs. I don't think Jon is "JJ watching" with Hendo, I think he's just not making shots.

[Cameron]

Jon is 7-33 for the last 4 games (1-6, 2-7, 3-13, 1-7), 4-17 from 3. That will not cut it if it continues. I hope it is just a slump, and not him wearing down physically. He left several shots short last night. That's usually a sign of tired legs. I don't think Jon is "JJ watching" with Hendo, I think he's just not making shots.

The thing to keep in mind is that while Scheyer has been down percentage-wise from the field the last several games, Paulus has really picked his activity up -- which has certainly been a great lift for our team not only to fill in the gaps but also in giving us a great option off the bench from long distance, something we lacked early in the year. Really, Greg's "breaking out" couldn't have come at a better time.

Greg's scoring and shooting numbers the past three games

9.0 PPG and 45.4 3PT% (5-for-11)

It might not seem like a lot, but there is no doubt that Greg's points and converted buckets have come at the right times, or on cue you could say, over the past three games, especially against Georgetown. He's really sparked us. As I have said before, I really think our team feeds off Greg's success on a higher level emotionally than any other player on the team. It just seems to happen.

Last night, for example, when we trailed 41-38, Greg comes down the court and drills a HUGE 25-footer to knot things up at 41. That was a game shifting moment in my eyes. We had been trailing the entire second half, and had trailed the ending minutes of half number one. We honestly looked to be on our way to one of those colossal mid season collapses that we have been so accustomed to seeing as Duke fans the past few years. Florida State has been that game in the past, and so has Va Tech. Last year it was Miami in Coral Gables. After Greg's shot fell through, though, we ran away with this game. You could argue that a Lance Thomas three would have had the same result, and that would be a valid argument. But, at the same time, Greg was the guy who hit it and he's the guy who has been hitting those momentum changing shots the past three games. There is a direct correlation there.

I'm glad he's playing so well. We needed that heading into Wake next week.

[Jumbo]

What's hilarious about this thread is the fact that less than a month ago, people were starting several threads asking when -- or if -- Gerald would ever step up and give Kyle and Jon help.

Everyone needs to remember that even in college hoops, with a relatively small number of games, there are ebbs and flows in performance during the season. But each game feels so important that a two-week stretch feels like an eternity. We look for patterns out of what really are short-term blips.

[Classof06]

Scheyer's the person on this team I least worry about in terms of production because he affects the game in so many ways besides scoring. Also, with Gerald playing out of his mind lately, I don't think Scheyer has to score as much. Jon was the 2nd leading scorer until Henderson erupted and has sinced move to 3rd leading scorer. And that's OK.

I do think this team needs more from Zoubek, Thomas and Plumlee. Zoubek and Lance seem to have taken a step back since conference play has started but I'd really like to see more of Plumlee.

I'm very impressed with how Miles has handled himself in spot duty and I'm of the belief he can contribute more than he's been given the chance to. That being said, it seems like Krzyzewski trusts him more and more, so I'm looking to see his minutes increase as we go along. He's gonna have to play against Wake as far as I'm concerned.

[Classof06]

What's hilarious about this thread is the fact that less than a month ago, people were starting several threads asking when -- or if -- Gerald would ever step up and give Kyle and Jon help.

Everyone needs to remember that even in college hoops, with a relatively small number of games, there are ebbs and flows in performance during the season. But each game feels so important that a two-week stretch feels like an eternity. We look for patterns out of what really are short-term blips.

Great point, I know I was asking the same thing about Gerald a few weeks ago. These are still 18-22 yr old kids, so you're gonna get the ups and downs.

[gumbomoop]

Scheyer's the person on this team I least worry about in terms of production because he affects the game in so many ways besides scoring.

Amen, amen. Superb footwork on D, superb at playing passing lanes, sneaky clever passer, especially in tight spots, court awareness among very best in nation. Recall the Playmaker's understated admiration of Scheyer. "Jon Scheyer is real good at playing basketball."

In fact, as an aside, others more familiar with lots of teams, tell me who are those this year at Scheyer's level of court awareness?

[dukelifer]

Jon is 7-33 for the last 4 games (1-6, 2-7, 3-13, 1-7), 4-17 from 3. That will not cut it if it continues. I hope it is just a slump, and not him wearing down physically. He left several shots short last night. That's usually a sign of tired legs. I don't think Jon is "JJ watching" with Hendo, I think he's just not making shots.

Let him have his slump now. But one way to look at it is with Scheyer slumping, G has had to put on his superman cape. Unleashing the super G has been a great thing to see. We should also not forget that Scheyer contributes in many other ways than just hitting shots.

[jv001]

I taped the game last night and after looking at it, Jon just looked like a person not 100% and I'm not talking about too many mins. Plus his defender was grabbing and holding him when he was moving without the ball. I'm not blaming the refs but the truth is the truth. Jon still played a good floor game with the exception of the 3 TOs and this is the first time he has turned it over that many times. Jon will come around. Just as Greg has begun to turn it around. Both are too good not to. Go Duke!

[mike88]

There is no doubt that Jon remains one of our most valuable players. Regardless of how he is shooting, he gives us excellent defense and very good decision making with the ball. I am a little concerned, however, that his difficulty scoring may be related to the tougher competition we have faced recently.

Jon has shown three effective means of scoring: hitting open 3 pointers, driving to the basket (and often getting fouled), and hitting the pull-up jumper. He has more difficulty shooting and hitting threes when bigger and faster defenders close out on him without fouling; better defenders also make it harder for him to get to the rim and are less likely to bail him out by fouling him. Jon has gotten some good mid-range shots recently but has just missed them.

Hopefully, this is just a short-term trend and he will break out of it, but perhaps part of the increase in Gerald's scoring (relative to Jon) comes because he is better able to overcome the stronger defenses we have seen recently.

[Jumbo]

There is no doubt that Jon remains one of our most valuable players. Regardless of how he is shooting, he gives us excellent defense and very good decision making with the ball. I am a little concerned, however, that his difficulty scoring may be related to the tougher competition we have faced recently.

Jon has shown three effective means of scoring: hitting open 3 pointers, driving to the basket (and often getting fouled), and hitting the pull-up jumper. He has more difficulty shooting and hitting threes when bigger and faster defenders close out on him without fouling; better defenders also make it harder for him to get to the rim and are less likely to bail him out by fouling him. Jon has gotten some good mid-range shots recently but has just missed them.

Hopefully, this is just a short-term trend and he will break out of it, but perhaps part of the increase in Gerald's scoring (relative to Jon) comes because he is better able to overcome the stronger defenses we have seen recently.

I'm concerned about his shooting lately as well, but I don't think it's related to the quality of defenders he is facing. Xavier has big, athletic guards, for instance, and he torched them. In fact, if you go through is career game log on goduke.com, some of his best scoring games have come against stronger competition. In particular, he finished very strong last season when basically everyone else was off.

[jv001]

I'm concerned about his shooting lately as well, but I don't think it's related to the quality of defenders he is facing. Xavier has big, athletic guards, for instance, and he torched them. In fact, if you go through is career game log on goduke.com, some of his best scoring games have come against stronger competition. In particular, he finished very strong last season when basically everyone else was off.

Jumbo I've been wondering if it's just a loss of confidence. I don't see a difference in his shooting form. I believe Greg had lost his confidence but he seems to have regained it. What ever is causing Jon's slump will go away with a good shooting game. Jon is too good a player not to rebound. Go Duke!

[FireOgilvie]

Last night, for example, when we trailed 41-38, Greg comes down the court and drills a HUGE 25-footer to knot things up at 41. That was a game shifting moment in my eyes. We had been trailing the entire second half, and had trailed the ending minutes of half number one. We honestly looked to be on our way to one of those colossal mid season collapses that we have been so accustomed to seeing as Duke fans the past few years. Florida State has been that game in the past, and so has Va Tech. Last year it was Miami in Coral Gables. After Greg's shot fell through, though, we ran away with this game. You could argue that a Lance Thomas three would have had the same result, and that would be a valid argument. But, at the same time, Greg was the guy who hit it and he's the guy who has been hitting those momentum changing shots the past three games. There is a direct correlation there.

I'm glad he's playing so well. We needed that heading into Wake next week.


I agree that Paulus has stepped up at an important time in the season... but I think you're going a little overboard talking about the State game. While Paulus' 3 was important, it was still a back and forth game until Nolan Smith actually hit two 3's in a row (putting us up 52-49), which led to the Duke blowout. Paulus actually left the game at 56-53 and Duke went on a 15-3 run.

[SupaDave]

I agree that Paulus has stepped up at an important time in the season... but I think you're going a little overboard talking about the State game. While Paulus' 3 was important, it was still a back and forth game until Nolan Smith actually hit two 3's in a row (putting us up 52-49), which led to the Duke blowout. Paulus actually left the game at 56-53 and Duke went on a 15-3 run.

I disagree - we hit some big threes to stay in it and I think Nolan's were part of a team flow (especially considering we shot over 75% in the 2nd half). NCSU couldn't play it's 'big' game anymore and their guards simply weren't capable. (oh and I do beleive that we were DOWN when Paulus came in...)

[weezie]

I taped the game last night and after looking at it, Jon just looked like a person not 100% and I'm not talking about too many mins. Plus his defender was grabbing and holding him when he was moving without the ball. I'm not blaming the refs but the truth is the truth. Jon still played a good floor game with the exception of the 3 TOs and this is the first time he has turned it over that many times. Jon will come around. Just as Greg has begun to turn it around. Both are too good not to. Go Duke!


And bear in mind that Jon is not built like a traditional player. He's not thick-shouldered-big-hipped. He's taken some real banging hits this year but he keeps on scrapping. Defenses are beginning to blanket him since they know the shooting danger he represents. Maybe the refs don't think he is "working hard" [SEE: The Playcaller's latest article] and therefore they doubt he deserves the consideration that Hansblah gets every time he gets breathed on. Because it's all about how the refs see/feel/interpret everything with such sensitivity, isn't it? ;)

[gw67]

Scheyer has hit a cold spell the last four games shooting 7 for 33 overall and 4 for 17 from outside the three-point line. He has, however, rebounded well and had 17 assists to 7 turnovers during these games. Smith has played below par for the last 8 games although it appears that he is breaking out of his slump. During those 8 games, he has shot 19 for 56 overall and 4 for 17 from 3-point land. Further, he has 12 assists to 16 turnovers. Both are playing hard on defense but they need to step it up offensively.

gw67

[FireOgilvie]

I disagree - we hit some big threes to stay in it and I think Nolan's were part of a team flow (especially considering we shot over 75% in the 2nd half). NCSU couldn't play it's 'big' game anymore and their guards simply weren't capable. (oh and I do beleive that we were DOWN when Paulus came in...)

I was just saying I don't think Paulus' 3 that tied it up was THAT important for us because we subsequently lost the lead several times. In fact, Duke was losing 46-49 before Smith was subbed in and immediately hit two 3s (with Paulus in the game as well). After Smith came in and hit those two shots in less than a minute, Duke kept the lead for the rest of the game. After Paulus left the game, Duke went on a 15-3 run.

It might be because he's a senior and because of the whole "Rudy, emotional leader" factor, but I think that Paulus gets WAY too much credit from certain people. Yes, I think he can be a great shooter and I really do enjoy what he brings off the bench for us. But, I think the hyperbole that comes from certain people about Paulus is a little much.

[greybeard]

Jon looks extremely tight to me through his upper and middle back.

Both Jon and Kyle would benefit greatly if there was more scoring at the rim by Lance and Zoubek. They both work tremendously hard at both ends of the court. On offense, they both are very active in creating scoring opportunities for others; it seems at times that they are present with good shooting opportunities but are not really ready.

Broken record; a concerted effort to get the ball inside the way L and Z are most comfortable with might pay huge dividends. Going away from either of them because of one or two buffed plays in succession has big costs; it should not be undertaken lightly.

[mike88]

Jumbo I've been wondering if it's just a loss of confidence. I don't see a difference in his shooting form. I believe Greg had lost his confidence but he seems to have regained it. What ever is causing Jon's slump will go away with a good shooting game. Jon is too good a player not to rebound. Go Duke!

One thing that puzzles me about Jon's shot is that he has a tendency to lose the optimal backspin at times, such that his shot actually comes off with side-spin or no rotation. I have noticed it more this year than in the past, but I haven't gone back and looked at enough tape to see if there are particular circumstances when it happens (when shooting fast, or when shooting off the dribble) or whether it is associated with more misses. Have others noticed this?

[SMO]

What's hilarious about this thread is the fact that less than a month ago, people were starting several threads asking when -- or if -- Gerald would ever step up and give Kyle and Jon help.

Everyone needs to remember that even in college hoops, with a relatively small number of games, there are ebbs and flows in performance during the season. But each game feels so important that a two-week stretch feels like an eternity. We look for patterns out of what really are short-term blips.

The other hilarious thing is speculation that Jon is wearing down physically...in JANUARY!

[jv001]

One thing that puzzles me about Jon's shot is that he has a tendency to lose the optimal backspin at times, such that his shot actually comes off with side-spin or no rotation. I have noticed it more this year than in the past, but I haven't gone back and looked at enough tape to see if there are particular circumstances when it happens (when shooting fast, or when shooting off the dribble) or whether it is associated with more misses. Have others noticed this?

I've noticed more players with that sidespin on their shots in the last few years. I have always thought the best outside shooters(JJ) had the backspin you are talking about. Some of Jon's shots have gone in and come out. That could be in realtion to the side spin. I've not paid that much attention to the spin on his shot. I know that it looks like he is shooting quicker lately. Great shot at the end though. Go Duke!

[elvis14]

I'm looking forward to some games where the big 3 (G, Kyle, Jon) are playing really well. Early in the season G was OK and Kyle and Jon were playing really well. Right now, G is playing great, Kyle is playing very well and Jon shooting poorly. The thing that makes me less worried about Jon than I would be for a lesser player is that he is still taking good shots. I don't see him forcing a bunch of shots, he's still taking shots in the flow of the offense. Right now they are not falling. I think that'll change.

The original contention that we need someone else to pitch in is correct but the pieces are in place. Jon, Nolan, Z have dropped off some, they'll come back some too. I'd like to see a few more points from Dave and continued scoring in short stretches from Greg.

[greybeard]

One thing that puzzles me about Jon's shot is that he has a tendency to lose the optimal backspin at times, such that his shot actually comes off with side-spin or no rotation. I have noticed it more this year than in the past, but I haven't gone back and looked at enough tape to see if there are particular circumstances when it happens (when shooting fast, or when shooting off the dribble) or whether it is associated with more misses. Have others noticed this?

If you DVRed or Tivoed the Xavier game and still have it, in which Jon shot extremely well, his shoulder blade seemed to be moving really well, but you will see that he cheated a bit by coming around and through his right side, adding a rotation motion that might have provided a feeling of freedom from the stuckness I have seen in his thorasic spine for a while.

The problem with that kind of delivery is direction; if you are ever so slightly off in your timing, you miss left or right. At any rate, by the next game, Jon no longer had the same obvious right sided movement (rotation), but he still might be rotating to feel freer to release the shot, and have a little throw to how he is shooting. If so, that would explain the side spins, and trying to regulate that with your hand might lead to a non-spin. Just a theory, but I am pretty good at this stuff. If anybody has the Xavier game recorded, you can verify whether I observed correctly or not. See my post on the Topics board under Injury (it still should be up) for an easy and delightful warm up that could help with such thorastic spine/shoulder blade issues. :o

[greybeard]

All this talk of ebbs and flows, guys being off for a series of games but being allowed to shoot their way out of it, well, it makes sense to me. I'm wondering how that reasoning applies to Zoubek: he is held out for sound strategic reasons for nearly the entire preceeding game, and makes a few misplays when he starts the next and immediately gets pulled.

I know that there are some who will say that Zoubek's plays were close to the basket and therefore the mistakes (misses) were somehow more glaring, and that he has not earned the cred that Kyle and Scheyer and Paulus have, but I think one has to wonder whether those answers really suffice.

Ask Mr. Ewing about how easy it is for a seven footer to muff a little lay up type shot. As for catching low with a guy on your back and bringing it up to shoot, when the window is small before there are all kinds of hands looking to swat the ball away, and the game has just started, "easy" would not be my description.

Sorry, Jumbo, I'll be good, at least for a little while. :o

[77devil]

If you DVRed or Tivoed the Xavier game and still have it, in which Jon shot extremely well, his shoulder blade seemed to be moving really well, but you will see that he cheated a bit by coming around and through his right side, adding a rotation motion that might have provided a feeling of freedom from the stuckness I have seen in his thorasic spine for a while.

The problem with that kind of delivery is direction; if you are ever so slightly off in your timing, you miss left or right. At any rate, by the next game, Jon no longer had the same obvious right sided movement (rotation), but he still might be rotating to feel freer to release the shot, and have a little throw to how he is shooting. If so, that would explain the side spins, and trying to regulate that with your hand might lead to a non-spin. Just a theory, but I am pretty good at this stuff. If anybody has the Xavier game recorded, you can verify whether I observed correctly or not. See my post on the Topics board under Injury (it still should be up) for an easy and delightful warm up that could help with such thorastic spine/shoulder blade issues. :o

You can't be serious. And by the way, stuckness is not a word in the English language.

[greybeard]

You can't be serious. And by the way, stuckness is not a word in the English language.

I can't be serious about what?

Stuckness might not be a word in the English language but it paints a good picture, creates a feeling. See 77Devil, anyone who knows anything about movement and instruction in sport knows that words are an inadequate form of communication. What is required is a picture and a feel to understand by self exploration what it is that is going on. Stuckness, by me, does that. If it don't work for you, you know how bad that makes me feel.

Check out the Xavier game and you will see a dramatically different delivery by Jon than you ever saw before or have seen since. Or not. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

[Jumbo]

All this talk of ebbs and flows, guys being off for a series of games but being allowed to shoot their way out of it, well, it makes sense to me. I'm wondering how that reasoning applies to Zoubek: he is held out for sound strategic reasons for nearly the entire preceeding game, and makes a few misplays when he starts the next and immediately gets pulled.

I know that there are some who will say that Zoubek's plays were close to the basket and therefore the mistakes (misses) were somehow more glaring, and that he has not earned the cred that Kyle and Scheyer and Paulus have, but I think one has to wonder whether those answers really suffice.

Ask Mr. Ewing about how easy it is for a seven footer to muff a little lay up type shot. As for catching low with a guy on your back and bringing it up to shoot, when the window is small before there are all kinds of hands looking to swat the ball away, and the game has just started, "easy" would not be my description.

Sorry, Jumbo, I'll be good, at least for a little while. :o

All I've asked is that you not comment so definitively on games you didn't watch. Zoubek didn't get immediately pulled. He played 16 minutes. He came out with all the other starters, and got back in pretty quickly. You just don't have enough info to comment on this particular subject.

[Jumbo]

I can't be serious about what?

Stuckness might not be a word in the English language but it paints a good picture, creates a feeling. See 77Devil, anyone who knows anything about movement and instruction in sport knows that words are an inadequate form of communication. What is required is a picture and a feel to understand by self exploration what it is that is going on. Stuckness, by me, does that. If it don't work for you, you know how bad that makes me feel.

Check out the Xavier game and you will see a dramatically different delivery by Jon than you ever saw before or have seen since. Or not. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

Here's a Duke-Xavier video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIKvXtXk1VU). I don't see much different about Scheyer's form than usual. He might have been stepping into his shot a little better than lately. That's it.

[greybeard]

You can't be serious. And by the way, stuckness is not a word in the English language.

For those of you other than 77 here, you might recall that before the Xavair game there was a thread about Jon's erratic shooting, particularly from three. I posted on that thread that I had seen Jon develop going back as far as I think towards the end of his freshman year a tendency to go very deep into his knees, to bend them way much, on his shot, and that I thought that that deep knee bend was problematic.

I also discussed what I saw was a problem with his thorasic spine, probably T7, as that is one that most commonly gets stuck, rotated out of position. The small erector (something) muscles proximate to the rotated vertabrae go into chronic spasm and help keep the vertibrae locked in a rotational position. The spasm causes a bulge in these small muscles discernible to the touch. (run your fingers gently with contact along either side of your wife's spine and you might notice what feels like a chord suddenly under your finger, that would be one of those small muscles in spasm). Such spasms, and the rotation of the vertabrae itself, often makes it difficult for the scapula, shouder blade, on one side, usually the strong side, to move less smoothly, or not at all, along the top of the ribs, thus inhibiting the proper use of the shoulder joint and thus effecting the transfer of energy into a basketball player's shot, or causing rotator cuff injuries in a golfer, tennis player, etc. It will also cause a person to carry oneself stiffly through the thorasic region, or across the upper and mid back.

If, like me, you are training to work with people with such issues, you are trained to discern visually what might be going on with people as a working hypothesis. Now, having played the game myself for many, many years, and having watched Jon play for three, I cannot say for sure that he has an upper, mid back issue, but, I'd be willing to bet good money on it. Like I said, I'm very good at this stuff and have been in a serious professional training for 2 1/2 years now developing that acuity.

And, I can tell you for sure that if you watch Xavier game footage of Jon's shooting that week, you will see that there is a pronounced turn of his torso to the right on his shot not seen before or since. His delivery and follow through also were discernibly much smoother and the latter also more complete.

There, now I ask you, wasn't stuckness much easier and more clear?

And, no, Jon's back would not "hurt" so he would not be complaining to trainers about any of this. On the other hand, if I am right and he sought useful assistance in improving, he'd tell you himself how much better and freer his entire uppper torso feels.

PS releaving the muscle spasm will feel better and create some improvement, but not nearly as much as is possible.

[greybeard]

By the way boys and girls, we all have such issues more or less.

Lie on your back comfortably, putting a folded towel under your head so your neck is not strained. Try to put both arms over your head so that they lie on the ground. First try it with your elbows bent so it would be like hands up in a Western. Then try to straighten them so that the backs of your hands and forearms are on the ground. Not so easy, eh. One side is more difficult than the other, right? How come? Don't strain.

Now, flip over and lie on your belly. Try raising both hands over your head so that your palms are flat on the ground. Much easier, right? How come?

[greybeard]

Here's a Duke-Xavier video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIKvXtXk1VU). I don't see much different about Scheyer's form than usual. He might have been stepping into his shot a little better than lately. That's it.

That's why I'm a pro and you're not. Only kidding; actually, partially.

Check out his right foot, hip, and complete right side, up through his shoulder. On the second, I think that it is pretty evident that his shoulder was turning right through the shot before the defender came towards and touched him. See how easily he fell to his right.

I believe you will find a three from the right corner that same half or at least a long three from there that makes the turn even more observable. I also recall seeing a shot of him from behind that made the turning more obvious.

I think you will find if you can focus on his right foot you will see that it is father out in front of his left, more than usual on his follow through and that it is pointed left of the target. That is caused by the rotation of the torso and the shoulder, or would be produced by the rotation of the pelvis which will cause the rotation of the torso and the shoulder, take your pick. Not possible to have one without the other and shoot the ball. I'm betting that it was the former, that he was rotating his upper body to feel freer through the shot. But you'd have to ask him.

Incidently, I'm not sure, but take a look at Gerald's shot in this video and compare it to a recent similar shot. I think that you might see a difference between the two. Not clear about this, but I think that you might see less rotation now.

Would help if the picture were larger.

Anyway, I am absolutely clear in my recollection about what I saw while watching the game. I thought about noting it in a post but didn't because, hey, if it was working so well for him, why should I mention it; I mean he is a great player, I thought, maybe he can handle this rotation stuff (there was an All Ivy guard named Bob DeLuca at Cornell when I was there who shot these long high arching no spin balls going to his right and bringing the ball up over his head and to his right falling away, so, rules are made to be broken, I suppose). I noticed that he had stopped in ensuing games (I don't see all of them). That is the truth, Jumbo, I really am not fibbing here. I might have been misstaken in what I thought I was seeing, but doubt it very, very much. Who knows?

[greybeard]

All I've asked is that you not comment so definitively on games you didn't watch. Zoubek didn't get immediately pulled. He played 16 minutes. He came out with all the other starters, and got back in pretty quickly. You just don't have enough info to comment on this particular subject.

Well done, Jumbo! Will definitely try; I was just teasing on myself for redunancy. It is all good. Thanks for the clarification in this instance. I am glad he got the minutes. I think we'd both like to see Z produce along the lines that he did against Xavair; I like that you root for the kid.

[SilkyJ]

There, now I ask you, wasn't stuckness much easier and more clear?


No. Stiffness or "limited movement" would have sufficed. And I ask everyone on this board, does anyone have any idea what this guy is talking about?

[mph]

No. Stiffness or "limited movement" would have sufficed. And I ask everyone on this board, does anyone have any idea what this guy is talking about?

Uh, no.

This

If you DVRed or Tivoed the Xavier game and still have it, in which Jon shot extremely well, his shoulder blade seemed to be moving really well, but you will see that he cheated a bit by coming around and through his right side, adding a rotation motion that might have provided a feeling of freedom from the stuckness I have seen in his thorasic spine for a while.

sounds a lot like this (http://www.last.fm/music/Brian+Regan/_/Monster+Truck+Drivers). (play button is on the upper right).

[MChambers]

No. Stiffness or "limited movement" would have sufficed. And I ask everyone on this board, does anyone have any idea what this guy is talking about?

I don't really follow this particular post, but Greybeard has an interesting perspective on lots of plays, and I am glad he posts here. He is a genuine Duke fan with some insights that few here offer.

I'd be happy to see other constructive suggestions regarding Scheyer's shot, other than the tiresome "too many minutes" posts. When I went to Duke, I could tell when Jim Spanarkel released his jumper whether it was going in. Unfortunately, I seem to have lost that talent with age.

[mike88]

I don't really follow this particular post, but Greybeard has an interesting perspective on lots of plays, and I am glad he posts here. He is a genuine Duke fan with some insights that few here offer.

I'd be happy to see other constructive suggestions regarding Scheyer's shot, other than the tiresome "too many minutes" posts. When I went to Duke, I could tell when Jim Spanarkel released his jumper whether it was going in. Unfortunately, I seem to have lost that talent with age.

I can't tell much from the video Jumbo posted, other than the shots in that highlight sequence were all taken in rhythm and with him stepping into his shot, as Jumbo said. Because he doesn't have an exceptionally quick release, Jon seems to do best when he has some space. When he is confident, he doesn't seem to hesitate when he has enough space; at other times, moreso last year, he gets into periods when he hesitates despite being open. I don't think that has been as much the issue over the last few games: he is taking good shots but missing (some of them). I would need to see more of his misses to discern more, but I wonder if when he has to shoot faster he may be losing some of his otherwise textbook form on his shot.

[Newton_14]

Greybeard, you scare me sometimes with how deep your posts are, that said I generally read every word in your posts. So I guess I scare myself. But carry on as it takes all of us to make the world go round and round. I actually enjoy the reads.

Regarding the sidespin, in my view that comes from the position of Jon's off hand on the ball during the shot. He has his left hand really high on the ball almost to the point where it is on top and it appears to me that impacts the spin and creates a side-spin rotation. Someone mentioned alot of his missed shots go in and out, but I have also seen several of his made shots during his career hit the front of the rim bounce up, and then drop in. So it seems to help him as much as it hurts. At any rate he is way too good of a player to stay in this slump. He will be fine. And like Jumbo stated, Jon has generally killed the better teams in his career on both sides of the ball. Just ask Ellington about Jon's defense in the unx games.

[greybeard]

Greybeard, you scare me sometimes with how deep your posts are, that said I generally read every word in your posts. So I guess I scare myself. But carry on as it takes all of us to make the world go round and round. I actually enjoy the reads.

Regarding the sidespin, in my view that comes from the position of Jon's off hand on the ball during the shot. He has his left hand really high on the ball almost to the point where it is on top and it appears to me that impacts the spin and creates a side-spin rotation. Someone mentioned alot of his missed shots go in and out, but I have also seen several of his made shots during his career hit the front of the rim bounce up, and then drop in. So it seems to help him as much as it hurts. At any rate he is way too good of a player to stay in this slump. He will be fine. And like Jumbo stated, Jon has generally killed the better teams in his career on both sides of the ball. Just ask Ellington about Jon's defense in the unx games.

Thanks.

Yours is an entirely plausible theory, actually more plausible than my current theory about vestigages of what I saw in his shot games ago.

As a matter of fact, an all-section forward the year before me in high school, a guy they called RoRo, used to hold his left hand where you said and his right hand in the exact opposite position, low on the ball on the right, shot his jump shot from slightly above his head by rotating his hands in a snap counterclockwise. Awesome player to watch, RoRo was. Played the high post on a high low offense; the shot was extremely reliable and effective from 15 feet in; low trajectory; I think that he got his hands all the way around so the release created backspin. It might have been a tad of side spin.

Thanks again, Boozer, I really appreciate it. ;)

[77devil]

No. Stiffness or "limited movement" would have sufficed. And I ask everyone on this board, does anyone have any idea what this guy is talking about?

Not a clue.

[greybeard]

No. Stiffness or "limited movement" would have sufficed. And I ask everyone on this board, does anyone have any idea what this guy is talking about?

So you don't know what I'm talking about but you are suggesting better ways to say it? Wow, a mystical moment by the Silkman.

By the way, do stiffness or limited movement mean the same thing by you or different things? If you are like the rest of us, it would be the latter, now wouldn't they. So only one not both might be right, but in reality neither really is. And, since you admittedly do not know what I am talking about, I can only assume that you were trying to play some trick by the suggestions you posit. Or is it that you missed the funny part?

By the way, most all of us are unaware of how our shoulder blades move (directionally) and how much (distance) in the course of various arm movements. I can tell you that if you develop a vertabrae that is rotated out of whack and for that reason or others your shoulder blade is inhibited from making certain movements that would naturally happen when you were shooting a basketball, it would neither feel stiff nor would it feel like limited movement. You would notice that something didn't feel quite right, but the noise created by a long jump shot would overwhelm the sensation. If you explored moving your arm systematically and without gravity, you would experience a feeling like something is stuck when you reached a point when the quality of the sensation changed, became more diffficult than when you started. Stuck, Silky, not stiff and not more limited. Sorry, just the way it is.

Learning takes place best when you begin with small movements that generate less force. Why? You can feel differences. Sorry Silky, I know this is over your head.

Michael Hebon, one of 25 Master PGA professionals in the world, and winner of numerous awards including a PGA Teaching Professional of the Year Award (1991), spent the first 20 years of his career on mastering and teaching the details of the swing in all its various effective forms, and the last 20 studying and applying learning theory in depth. He has said in more ways then you can count the following: "Presenting the brain with a choice about a motor skill with words should be avoided. We must use feels and pictures that we then can experience." Building and Improving your Golf Mind, Golf Body, and Golf Swing. See also Help From Feel and Perception: When you the FEEL of Your Action is Combined with a PICTURE, Learning Improves 70Percent, Hebron. Mike quotes Bobby Jones among dozens of others on the importance of having a picture: "The one influence most likely to assure the satisfactory progression of the swing is clear visualization in the player's mind of movements"--that is, a picture. "It is our suggestion that you learn to play by mental pictures, not verbal suggestions that cannot be turned into a visualization." For feel, again there are dozens, including Hogen's "Learning Good Golf by Sense."

Michael has written extensively on the problems that what he calls "the decoding of language" have on a teacher's ability to impart what he wants to the student with words. I have commented on this a number of times here when it comes to bench coaching in particular. If I asked a room full of Duke students to lie on their backs and raise their right hand over their head, the variety of outcomes would astound. It is any wonder then that players who stay four years seem to improve exponentially more in their fourth year then their first--their ability to see what the coaches are saying becomes keen, they have an immediate picture in their minds of what is being asked of them; learning is accelerated.

Later Silky, I know you don't. What can I tell you. Read one of Mike's books, his most recent is quite good and exceptionally well documented. They are much easier to understand than Moshe's work, but way less profound.

[jv001]

Oh yes help for Hendo. The help will come from; Kyle, Jon, Greg, Brian, Nolan, Lance, E-Will, Dave, Miles, Olek, Marty, Jordan, Steve & Coach K. Go Duke!

[trinity92]

Greybeard, your posts I've read over the last couple years remind me of a joke:

Three guys are are traveling in a car when it breaks down-- one is an electrician, one is a plumber and the third is a computer tech. They get out, pop the hood and take a look. The electrician pokes around a bit and concludes there are some wires that have come loose or the fuses have blown. The plumber looks around and decides the valves have clogged or the various tubes have become detached. The computer tech remains silent. The other two notice this and ask the tech whether he's going to enlighten them with his take on the problem.

He replies: "Um, maybe we should all get out of the car, then get back in again."

For goodness sake, we know you're a doctor, physical therapist, Bob Rotella or some such thing. Do you think it might be possible that there is an explanation for Scheyer's recent decline that does not have its source in your area of expertise?

Sorry Jumbo, I'll try to be good. Lest our compatriots and moderators think this is (merely) a flame, I'm hoping my post will encourage Grey to expand his analysis and better enlighten us all.

[calltheobvious]

Greybeard, your posts I've read over the last couple years remind me of a joke:

Three guys are are traveling in a car when it breaks down-- one is an electrician, one is a plumber and the third is a computer tech. They get out, pop the hood and take a look. The electrician pokes around a bit and concludes there are some wires that have come loose or the fuses have blown. The plumber looks around and decides the valves have clogged or the various tubes have become detached. The computer tech remains silent. The other two notice this and ask the tech whether he's going to enlighten them with his take on the problem.

He replies: "Um, maybe we should all get out of the car, then get back in again."

For goodness sake, we know you're a doctor, physical therapist, Bob Rotella or some such thing. Do you think it might be possible that there is an explanation for Scheyer's recent decline that does not have its source in your area of expertise?

Sorry Jumbo, I'll try to be good. Lest our compatriots and moderators think this is (merely) a flame, I'm hoping my post will encourage Grey to expand his analysis and better enlighten us all.

Greybeard,

First, thanks for the references about the importance of decoding language in teaching physical activities. I hope to find at least one of the titles today when I'm at the library.

Second, I'd like to take a shot at splitting the difference between Trinity92's well-timed joke and some of the unconstructive, borderline-pi$$ed-off responses you've gotten.

One of the best pieces of writing advice I ever received was "Write for your audience, never for yourself." Of course I realize that in coming to a message board most of us are looking first and foremost to entertain ourselves. But when we're trying to make a sincere contribution to a discussion rather than just deliver a self-amusing zinger, it's important to remember the audience.

You get periodic feedback about readers not being able to follow your posts. I feel that the frustration that stems from this idea is actually far prior to any irritation expressed. Though I don't have nearly the expertise to be certain, I have a sense that you're on to something far more often than not when you write at length about issues of movement and form.

The problem is that virtually no one who's not a PT or an MD can follow you. And I think that a lot of posters here have the sense that you're aware of this, yet you continue to write in the same general way. Accurate or not, an easy and natural conclusion to draw here is that you don't care that much about anyone else's understanding, that at best you're simply writing for yourself, and at worst you're just showing off.

When people can't begin your posts with full confidence that you're writing to actually communicate, they're going to check out at the first sign of difficulty. Some will simply say "next post" and move on, while others will engage you rather than your ideas. This state of affairs isn't good for any individual, and it's certainly not good for the boards.

I don't think I'm alone in feeling my own frustration compounded by the belief that you actually have a tremendous amount to contribute to a lot of these discussions, but that you just don't seem to care much about word-choice.
You write about the challenges of decoding language, but in many of your posts you write as if you believed no such challenges exist.

So here is my humble request: keep posting, but in smaller bites. If an idea requires a lot of jargon or new concepts to get across, then give the reader sufficient background and time to get comfortable before taking us into the deep end. You just can't continue to write multiple jargon-filled, column-length posts in the same thread and expect everyone to keep up.

You might try starting a new thread whenever you have one of your deep insights on physical movement. The benefits would include, 1) minimizing thread-jacking, which would in turn 2) keep the boards more streamlined, and 3) allow readers the opportunity for proper mental preparation before reading your thoughts on physio stuff;), and maybe most importantly 4) relieve you of any pressure you may feel to try to communicate more "directly," since you recognize that you're not really staying on-topic relative to the thread.

If you start your own thread, nobody can reasonably take issue with your length or contributions to the original topic. People who don't like your style can avoid your stuff, while you'd have a more captive audience of people who would like to understand 'what in the world it is Greybeard is talking about.'

[RepoMan]

So you don't know what I'm talking about but you are suggesting better ways to say it? Wow, a mystical moment by the Silkman.

By the way, do stiffness or limited movement mean the same thing by you or different things? If you are like the rest of us, it would be the latter, now wouldn't they. So only one not both might be right, but in reality neither really is. And, since you admittedly do not know what I am talking about, I can only assume that you were trying to play some trick by the suggestions you posit. Or is it that you missed the funny part?

By the way, most all of us are unaware of how our shoulder blades move (directionally) and how much (distance) in the course of various arm movements. I can tell you that if you develop a vertabrae that is rotated out of whack and for that reason or others your shoulder blade is inhibited from making certain movements that would naturally happen when you were shooting a basketball, it would neither feel stiff nor would it feel like limited movement. You would notice that something didn't feel quite right, but the noise created by a long jump shot would overwhelm the sensation. If you explored moving your arm systematically and without gravity, you would experience a feeling like something is stuck when you reached a point when the quality of the sensation changed, became more diffficult than when you started. Stuck, Silky, not stiff and not more limited. Sorry, just the way it is.

Learning takes place best when you begin with small movements that generate less force. Why? You can feel differences. Sorry Silky, I know this is over your head.

Michael Hebon, one of 25 Master PGA professionals in the world, and winner of numerous awards including a PGA Teaching Professional of the Year Award (1991), spent the first 20 years of his career on mastering and teaching the details of the swing in all its various effective forms, and the last 20 studying and applying learning theory in depth. He has said in more ways then you can count the following: "Presenting the brain with a choice about a motor skill with words should be avoided. We must use feels and pictures that we then can experience." Building and Improving your Golf Mind, Golf Body, and Golf Swing. See also Help From Feel and Perception: When you the FEEL of Your Action is Combined with a PICTURE, Learning Improves 70Percent, Hebron. Mike quotes Bobby Jones among dozens of others on the importance of having a picture: "The one influence most likely to assure the satisfactory progression of the swing is clear visualization in the player's mind of movements"--that is, a picture. "It is our suggestion that you learn to play by mental pictures, not verbal suggestions that cannot be turned into a visualization." For feel, again there are dozens, including Hogen's "Learning Good Golf by Sense."

Michael has written extensively on the problems that what he calls "the decoding of language" have on a teacher's ability to impart what he wants to the student with words. I have commented on this a number of times here when it comes to bench coaching in particular. If I asked a room full of Duke students to lie on their backs and raise their right hand over their head, the variety of outcomes would astound. It is any wonder then that players who stay four years seem to improve exponentially more in their fourth year then their first--their ability to see what the coaches are saying becomes keen, they have an immediate picture in their minds of what is being asked of them; learning is accelerated.

Later Silky, I know you don't. What can I tell you. Read one of Mike's books, his most recent is quite good and exceptionally well documented. They are much easier to understand than Moshe's work, but way less profound.

Interesting perspective and provides things to think about. Thanks, Grey.

[greybeard]

Greybeard,

First, thanks for the references about the importance of decoding language in teaching physical activities. I hope to find at least one of the titles today when I'm at the library.

Second, I'd like to take a shot at splitting the difference between Trinity92's well-timed joke and some of the unconstructive, borderline-pi$$ed-off responses you've gotten.

One of the best pieces of writing advice I ever received was "Write for your audience, never for yourself." Of course I realize that in coming to a message board most of us are looking first and foremost to entertain ourselves. But when we're trying to make a sincere contribution to a discussion rather than just deliver a self-amusing zinger, it's important to remember the audience.

You get periodic feedback about readers not being able to follow your posts. I feel that the frustration that stems from this idea is actually far prior to any irritation expressed. Though I don't have nearly the expertise to be certain, I have a sense that you're on to something far more often than not when you write at length about issues of movement and form.

The problem is that virtually no one who's not a PT or an MD can follow you. And I think that a lot of posters here have the sense that you're aware of this, yet you continue to write in the same general way. Accurate or not, an easy and natural conclusion to draw here is that you don't care that much about anyone else's understanding, that at best you're simply writing for yourself, and at worst you're just showing off.

When people can't begin your posts with full confidence that you're writing to actually communicate, they're going to check out at the first sign of difficulty. Some will simply say "next post" and move on, while others will engage you rather than your ideas. This state of affairs isn't good for any individual, and it's certainly not good for the boards.

I don't think I'm alone in feeling my own frustration compounded by the belief that you actually have a tremendous amount to contribute to a lot of these discussions, but that you just don't seem to care much about word-choice.
You write about the challenges of decoding language, but in many of your posts you write as if you believed no such challenges exist.

So here is my humble request: keep posting, but in smaller bites. If an idea requires a lot of jargon or new concepts to get across, then give the reader sufficient background and time to get comfortable before taking us into the deep end. You just can't continue to write multiple jargon-filled, column-length posts in the same thread and expect everyone to keep up.

You might try starting a new thread whenever you have one of your deep insights on physical movement. The benefits would include, 1) minimizing thread-jacking, which would in turn 2) keep the boards more streamlined, and 3) allow readers the opportunity for proper mental preparation before reading your thoughts on physio stuff;), and maybe most importantly 4) relieve you of any pressure you may feel to try to communicate more "directly," since you recognize that you're not really staying on-topic relative to the thread.

If you start your own thread, nobody can reasonably take issue with your length or contributions to the original topic. People who don't like your style can avoid your stuff, while you'd have a more captive audience of people who would like to understand 'what in the world it is Greybeard is talking about.'

This is tremendously usefull: there are more than a few narcissistic bones in me and regrettably they creep into my posts here, but I do not think that that is the case when I write about health and learning issues. Basketball stuff in general, ouch. My apologies. When the two come togehter, as they did on this stuff about Jon, ouch.

But, here's a problem. Writing about these things and understanding them is not easy. To the contrary, it takes a tremendous amount of work. Without the context of experience in the course of such communications, decoding becomes even more difficult--that is, the words themselves will mean different things to different people. That is why from time to time I suggest "trying something" in the course of my trying to communicate. Also, the concepts at play with respect to how we learn, how little attention is paid to empowering people to figure out how to do habbitual things better, is well illusive--Moshe's last book is entitled aptly, "The Elusive Obvious." Parts are tremendously understandable, parts are dense beyond description.

PTs and MDs and most sports trainers will not understand any better than the average person. My Feldenkrais training is filled with PTs and two phyicians, a rhuematologist who teaches at UVA and a pain doctor (can't spell the official name). I can tell you first hand that such a background can even get in the way. I have tried over the course of years to explain things as best I understand them so that a cumulative build up might have taken place--addressing the decoding isssue.

By the way, if you e-mail Michael himself, check out his web page michaelhebron.com to do that (I have recommended the site a number of times (regrettably the free library on the site has been jazzed up but the number of articles have been greatly reduced). Michael has written scores of articles and might well be willing to send you some (he gave me handfills when he understood my interests in learning that preceeded my decision to take the Feldenkrais training). His most recent book which you will see on the site is a fascinating read, at least the part on learning issues.

Finally, my son just gave my wife and I a cop of a book authored by a professor of his titled Proust and the Squid, The story and Science of the Reading Brain. Michael likens the decoding problems in trying to "teach" sports movements through words akin to reading issues, about which there has been a ton of research--MIchael thinks that movement is different than things like math or spelling, that it cannot be taught but only learned.

Your comments are most helpful and I will keep them in mind.

Postscript: I do not know that I will ever "teach" the Feldenkrais Method, even in the classes that are one segment, or in the one on one hands on aspect of the work which I am not yet certified to do at any rate. The reasons, I'm a coward, I suppose. Nevertheless, I know that the work has tremendous efficacy, not in the sense that it is the holy grail, but that there is an awful lot that is useful in it. I see one role that I can play is in bringing awareness of the work to the sports community. Many musicians and actors and dancers know of the work and work with it. The average sports guy, well, some of Moshe's ideas have recently found their way into training; but you'd have to train at a gym in Israel or in Europe to get exposed to the stuff for real. My thought, and again with all sincerity, I believe that DBR provides access to a very valuable audience, vey valuable.

My apologies to all and I will try to keep the narcissism in check.

[greybeard]

Greybeard, your posts I've read over the last couple years remind me of a joke:

Three guys are are traveling in a car when it breaks down-- one is an electrician, one is a plumber and the third is a computer tech. They get out, pop the hood and take a look. The electrician pokes around a bit and concludes there are some wires that have come loose or the fuses have blown. The plumber looks around and decides the valves have clogged or the various tubes have become detached. The computer tech remains silent. The other two notice this and ask the tech whether he's going to enlighten them with his take on the problem.

He replies: "Um, maybe we should all get out of the car, then get back in again."

For goodness sake, we know you're a doctor, physical therapist, Bob Rotella or some such thing. Do you think it might be possible that there is an explanation for Scheyer's recent decline that does not have its source in your area of expertise?

Sorry Jumbo, I'll try to be good. Lest our compatriots and moderators think this is (merely) a flame, I'm hoping my post will encourage Grey to expand his analysis and better enlighten us all.

Yes I do. On the other hand, shooting a basketball is not a complicated act once you've mastered it, as Jon certainly has. One can look to mystical answers (ask gil Hodges and hitting in hte world series) or think horses instead of zebras. I see what I see. Try it, step forward with your right foot a little and have your toes pointing left; see if your torso doesn't turn.

[greybeard]

Or, Trinity, lift your right foot and turn your shoulder slightly to the left; see where your right toes point.

You work out with weights, you over do it, small muscles around the spine or under your shoulder blade (the things that stick out in your back like chicken wings) and they will not usually "hurt." They will impact on smoothness and effectiveness of movement. The same thing can happen reaching awkwardly for a ball. Also, a vertabrae can rotate and get stuck before such spasms occur. Getting rid of the spasm will make it possible to get the vertabrae back in alignment.

Show me a shooter who is in a prolonged slump and I think that there will be a physical issue (problem) that underlies it, many of which will not "hurt" as such.

[77devil]

For goodness sake, we know you're a doctor, physical therapist, Bob Rotella or some such thing. Do you think it might be possible that there is an explanation for Scheyer's recent decline that does not have its source in your area of expertise?

I thought he wrote once that he was a lawyer. Greybeard is whatever he needs to be to fit the peculiar musings of any particular post, a real rennaisance man. But, frankly, much of the stuff is so outlandish, as when he made posts about the use of the bigs in the State game that he did not watch. I think it brings a level of amusement that we should embrace. Greybeard, keep it coming.

[SilkyJ]

Greybeard, keep it coming.

Or don't, lest this board's rationality become stucknessing.

[SilkyJ]

Sorry Silky, I know this is over your head.

I'm afraid it may be under my feet.



Michael Hebon, one of 25 Master PGA professionals in the world, and winner of numerous awards including a PGA Teaching Professional of the Year Award (1991), spent the first 20 years of his career on mastering and teaching the details of the swing in all its various effective forms, and the last 20 studying and applying learning theory in depth. He has said in more ways then you can count the following: "Presenting the brain with a choice about a motor skill with words should be avoided. We must use feels and pictures that we then can experience." Building and Improving your Golf Mind, Golf Body, and Golf Swing. See also Help From Feel and Perception: When you the FEEL of Your Action is Combined with a PICTURE, Learning Improves 70Percent, Hebron. Mike quotes Bobby Jones among dozens of others on the importance of having a picture: "The one influence most likely to assure the satisfactory progression of the swing is clear visualization in the player's mind of movements"--that is, a picture. "It is our suggestion that you learn to play by mental pictures, not verbal suggestions that cannot be turned into a visualization." For feel, again there are dozens, including Hogen's "Learning Good Golf by Sense."


So visual aids can assist in teaching? You just advanced modern education by decades. No one ever thought to use pictures before.

You didn't provide a picture, you made up a word, so, like most of your posts, this is largely irrelevant.

[Indoor66]

My head hurts just reading this thread. I have to quit!

[greybeard]

I'm afraid it may be under my feet.



So visual aids can assist in teaching? You just advanced modern education by decades. No one ever thought to use pictures before.

You didn't provide a picture, you made up a word, so, like most of your posts, this is largely irrelevant.

Whatever.

[greybeard]

I'm afraid it may be under my feet.



So visual aids can assist in teaching? You just advanced modern education by decades. No one ever thought to use pictures before.

You didn't provide a picture, you made up a word, so, like most of your posts, this is largely irrelevant.

That is not to say that words that evoke a feeling cannot help. On the contrary, Michael Hebron . . . . Never mind, in the words of WC, "Never . . . try to smarten up a chump."

[greybeard]

I thought he wrote once that he was a lawyer. Greybeard is whatever he needs to be to fit the peculiar musings of any particular post, a real rennaisance man. But, frankly, much of the stuff is so outlandish, as when he made posts about the use of the bigs in the State game that he did not watch. I think it brings a level of amusement that we should embrace. Greybeard, keep it coming.

Wow, someone who has some expertise in more than one area. Audacious.

By the way, unless I read what was posted here wrong, Z missed a shot, muffed one or two passes early on, and did not get or try to do much after that in his initial time on the floor. If that happens, it is a team issue, imo.

In my opinion, if, as a hypothetical, the team was instructed that Z was to score at least 8 points in his 16 minutes on the floor, he would. No, I did not say that such an instruction should be given, but, if it was, no doubt in my mind it would happen.

In my opinion, everybody understands that guys like Scheyer and Singler are supposed to get their shots and are supposed to keep taking them, whether they miss or not. Pretty much the same for everyone else on the starting team. Want to bet that everyone has a very different expectation with respect to Z, including Z himself. I do not think that that is useful to the team. I know that others disagree.

Sorry I missed the game but I did read the posts and have seen Z recede after making a few "bad" plays. Did he make some notable ones in the rest of his initial 16 minutes? Nobody mentioned that.

[The Gordog]

My head hurts just reading this thread. I have to quit!

Personally I like Greybeard's posts and enjoy the challenge of reading them. Sometimes I agree, sometimes not. As for Scheyer's shot I think he's spot on.

[greybeard]

Greybeard, your posts I've read over the last couple years remind me of a joke:

Three guys are are traveling in a car when it breaks down-- one is an electrician, one is a plumber and the third is a computer tech. They get out, pop the hood and take a look. The electrician pokes around a bit and concludes there are some wires that have come loose or the fuses have blown. The plumber looks around and decides the valves have clogged or the various tubes have become detached. The computer tech remains silent. The other two notice this and ask the tech whether he's going to enlighten them with his take on the problem.

He replies: "Um, maybe we should all get out of the car, then get back in again."

For goodness sake, we know you're a doctor, physical therapist, Bob Rotella or some such thing. Do you think it might be possible that there is an explanation for Scheyer's recent decline that does not have its source in your area of expertise?

Sorry Jumbo, I'll try to be good. Lest our compatriots and moderators think this is (merely) a flame, I'm hoping my post will encourage Grey to expand his analysis and better enlighten us all.

Can't help myself. Your little missive reminded me of one I am fond of that I do not think is applicable to you. Others who have been a tad testy, but not you.

So this non Jewish lady goes to Jerusalem and takes a room overlooking the remnants of the Old Temple, the Wailing Wall as it is called, and three times a day for an entire week, morning, mid day, and evening, she sees the same old man dressed with black hat and long coat, go to the wall, and rock back and forth.

Finally, she comes down and asks him, "Sir, I noticed that you come here three times a day, it is to pray, right?" The old man answers, "Yes." And, she adds, "would you mind telling me what you are praying for? He replies, "in the mornings I pray that men of differing views will learn to get along;"in middays I pray that such men will learn to listen to one another and try to learn;" and "in the evenings I pray that they will learn to be respectful of one another even when they disagree."

Then the lady asks if the old man would mind answering one more question: "Sir," she asks, "do you think that all this praying of yours, well do you think that it is doing any good?"

"Vel, to tell you the truth, Lady, most of the time it feels like I talkin to the fX*$in wall." Me too, trinity, me too.

[gofurman]

Oh yes help for Hendo. The help will come from; Kyle, Jon, Greg, Brian, Nolan, Lance, E-Will, Dave, Miles, Olek, Marty, Jordan, Steve & Coach K. Go Duke!

Help for Hendo - It better come soon and more consistently or the February slide shall begin again. This thread has become more relevant with each week

SIngler and Scheyer - get it in gear!!!!

[BlueintheFace]

This was discussed a few weeks ago (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=249881&postcount=36), but I grow more and more concerned that this is the kind of slump that a player doesn't break out of for the rest of a season. There shouldn't be any argument about Jon's value to the team in other areas (defense, playmaking, etc...) but, man, Jon has shot poorly since the beginning of January (all of ACC play). That doesn't seem like an ebb and flow kind of slump. That is a lot of games.