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Newton_14
01-16-2009, 10:26 AM
On ESPN this morning Coach Knight has a special on officiating the college game. He stated his number 1 issue was officials ignoring the walk. He used 2 game clips featuring 2 current college players. Guess who he showed first?

You got it. The King Of Walk- Tyler Hanswalker. He showed a clip from the Michigan St game this year featuring a scored basket by Hanswalk on a spin move in which he took 5 steps. Coach Knight walked through it in slow motion clearly showing each step. I loved it. The other spot featured Blake Griffin. I look forward to your comments on this one.

Buckeye Devil
01-16-2009, 10:26 AM
Coach Knight had a segment on Sports Center where he talked about some of his officiating peeves. Featured was Hole Hanstravel during Knight's piece on traveling. He clearly illustrated Hanstravel taking 5 steps while making a basket against an inferior opponent earlier this year. It showed what everyone
here knows but is seemingly ignored by the rest of the nation-that many of his points are the result of uncalled infractions. If he breaks JJ's scoring mark, there should be a big asterik beside it indicating that many of his points are illegitimate.

roywhite
01-16-2009, 10:43 AM
Good for Coach Knight.

I'm not sure which bothers me more about Hansbrough's advantages with the officials---the walking that is not called, or the quick calls in his favor when he has the ball and is moving toward the hoop.

Seems to me that Hansbrough does not get such favorable treatment in the NCAA Tournament, nor should he.

Fish80
01-16-2009, 11:13 AM
Sometimes the travel call is obvious. But there was a call in the Georgia Tech game Wednesday night that baffled me. Scheyer drove into the lane and did what looked to me like a nice jump stop. He was called for traveling. Why was that a travel, what did I miss?

allenmurray
01-16-2009, 11:43 AM
Good for Coach Knight.

I'm not sure which bothers me more about Hansbrough's advantages with the officials---the walking that is not called, or the quick calls in his favor when he has the ball and is moving toward the hoop.

Seems to me that Hansbrough does not get such favorable treatment in the NCAA Tournament, nor should he.

Now will he in the NBA (as reagrds fouls, big guys shuffle their feet a lot in the NBA with no calls). His "toughness" that he shows in college play (and I do admit he is tough) won't cut it in the league. Those guys up there are big and serious. The stuff that sends him to the FT line now won't even be noticed then, and when he does get a call he will be sore.

KrazyKfan
01-16-2009, 11:47 AM
Let us not forget that Gerald Henderson had a brief showing in that clip. That being said, I have never seen anyone walk as much or as often as Tyler Hansbrough. It's like the new awesome post move is a travel. You can't defend it because the person gets enough seperation through a quick walk to get an open shot. If Hansbrough passes Reddick in all time ACC scorers I will be furious.

jdj4duke
01-16-2009, 12:22 PM
There was a graphic in the UNC game last night that, even before the UVA game, Mr. Hans had something like just under 900 points from the free throw line (872 or 832 maybe, but a huge number).

Also glad to see that IC has so far not acknowledged the Knight commentary. They are still busy complaining about the refs in the Duke-Ga Tech game.

DukieBoy
01-16-2009, 12:50 PM
I just watched the clip on espn.com. I knew Hansbrough traveled, but for Knight to break it down like that suprised me honestly. He took 5 STEPS. How do refs not see this? That is almost as bad as NBA officials. Maybe this will bring more attention to traveling in games and force refs to make the call or at least bring attention to home much Hansbrough travels :)

jv001
01-16-2009, 02:06 PM
I have noticed that Hanstravel usually takes two small steps to gather himself b4 going up for his shot. I don't know why the officials do not call it. If it were a Duke player everyone would be hollering about it. Good job Coach K and Coach Knight. Go Duke!

aimo
01-16-2009, 02:52 PM
Elton Brand was great with the pivot. A lot of opposing fans would scream for a travel call, but replays showed he was just using the pivot very well. Sometimes, you may see a travel called when it was just a good pivot. I wonder if the refs find it too close to call when a player is moving so quickly it's hard to tell if it was a good pivot.

Now the Hansblah clip was just disgusting. I hope a lot of refs see the slo-mo breakdown.

JStuart
01-16-2009, 03:06 PM
Maybe my memory is bad, but last season, the PlayCaller promised us a segment where he was going to break down what Hans really does with his feet. I don't recall seeing it; maybe he did so, and I missed it. Anyone remember if he 'splained it all to us?

Oriole Way
01-16-2009, 03:10 PM
You never know... if enough officials see the Knight clip, it could actually influence them to start calling Hansbrough's blatant walks more often in conference play.

jv001
01-16-2009, 03:10 PM
Maybe my memory is bad, but last season, the PlayCaller promised us a segment where he was going to break down what Hans really does with his feet. I don't recall seeing it; maybe he did so, and I missed it. Anyone remember if he 'splained it all to us?

My memory is not that good either, but I thought that was the case. I would enjoy his input. Go Duke!

bhop22
01-16-2009, 03:13 PM
Anyone have a link to the clip. Thanks

allenmurray
01-16-2009, 03:26 PM
Through the mysteries of time travel, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards analyzed Hansbroughs post moves on their 1986 album Dirty Work, in the minor hit, Hansbrough Shuffle.

Huhuuuhuhuhuhuuuuuuh, hu!
You move it to the left, yeah, and you go for yourself.
You move it to the right, yeah, if it takes all night.
Now take it kinda slow,
with a whole lot of soul.
Don't move it too fast.
Just make it last.
You scratch just like a monkey.
Yeah ya do, real cool.
You slide it to the limbo.
Yeah, how low can you go?
Now come on baby, come on baby!
Don't fall down on me now.
Just move it right here to the Hansbrough Shuffle.
Huh, yeah, yeah, yeah, do the Hansbrough Shuffle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, do the Hansbrough Shuffle

Ian
01-16-2009, 03:33 PM
Anyone have a link to the clip. Thanks

Here's the link http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3837838

Virginian
01-16-2009, 07:38 PM
It's true that's there are many instances when the traveling violation is not called. The rules say, for example, that when a player catches the ball in mid-air, his foot that first hits the floor is the pivot foot and may not be moved again. But we all see players regularly come down the with the ball and then move that pivot foot. The point is that most of the time this is done about 25 feet or so from the basket. No harm to anyone.

What Hansbrough does is very different. He will get the ball on the left side of the lane, dribble once to the baseline, pick up his dribble, stop, step towards the foul line with his left foot, spin his body and plant his right foot towards the free-throw line (a traveling violation) and then JUMP into the middle of the lane, landing on both feet, then throw his body into the nearest defender, throw the ball into the air and fall on his back, thus "earning" two free throws. In short, he's moved both feet at least twice and moved 15 to 18 feet across the floor without dribbling. And it's NEVER EVER called a traveling violation. What the heck is that?!!

Some people say "well, he'll get away with that in NBA." What's really going to happen is that he's going to make that spin move with several extra steps and some defender in the pros is going to slam him into the hardwood every time with no call. I, for one, can't wait.

You look at the percentage of his career points that came from the free-throw line and you have to conclude his whole career is basically a sham.

He could have been a great player but he's fallen back on this BS in the last couple of years. IMO he may have the UNC scoring record but he will NOT be considered one of the great ACC players.

calltheobvious
01-16-2009, 08:18 PM
It's true that's there are many instances when the traveling violation is not called. The rules say, for example, that when a player catches the ball in mid-air, his foot that first hits the floor is the pivot foot and may not be moved again. But we all see players regularly come down the with the ball and then move that pivot foot. The point is that most of the time this is done about 25 feet or so from the basket. No harm to anyone.

What Hansbrough does is very different. He will get the ball on the left side of the lane, dribble once to the baseline, pick up his dribble, stop, step towards the foul line with his left foot, spin his body and plant his right foot towards the free-throw line (a traveling violation) and then JUMP into the middle of the lane, landing on both feet, then throw his body into the nearest defender, throw the ball into the air and fall on his back, thus "earning" two free throws. In short, he's moved both feet at least twice and moved 15 to 18 feet across the floor without dribbling. And it's NEVER EVER called a traveling violation. What the heck is that?!!

Some people say "well, he'll get away with that in NBA." What's really going to happen is that he's going to make that spin move with several extra steps and some defender in the pros is going to slam him into the hardwood every time with no call. I, for one, can't wait.

You look at the percentage of his career points that came from the free-throw line and you have to conclude his whole career is basically a sham.

He could have been a great player but he's fallen back on this BS in the last couple of years. IMO he may have the UNC scoring record but he will NOT be considered one of the great ACC players.

If that were actually the travel rule we'd hardly ever see a legal break-away dunk.

Ian
01-16-2009, 08:23 PM
Some people say "well, he'll get away with that in NBA." What's really going to happen is that he's going to make that spin move with several extra steps and some defender in the pros is going to slam him into the hardwood every time with no call. I, for one, can't wait.

You look at the percentage of his career points that came from the free-throw line and you have to conclude his whole career is basically a sham.

He could have been a great player but he's fallen back on this BS in the last couple of years. IMO he may have the UNC scoring record but he will NOT be considered one of the great ACC players.
There is a reason why he's come back to college for 4 years. The NBA scouts are not dummies, they know exactly what he is. I've said it for 3 years now, he will not go in the 1st round. And his NBA career, if he has one, will resemble that of Mark Madsen.

Cicero
01-16-2009, 09:55 PM
The rules say, for example, that when a player catches the ball in mid-air, his foot that first hits the floor is the pivot foot and may not be moved again.

This isn't correct. The first foot to hit the floor does not necessarily become the pivot foot, because the rules allow the player to leave the floor off that foot (before bringing the other one down) and come back down on both feet. From that position, neither foot may be used as a pivot foot.

In addition, a player may pick up their pivot foot without traveling as long as they don't return the pivot foot to the ground before releasing the ball. This is why you often see what looks like two steps on a drive--the first foot that comes down is the pivot foot, and the second foot to come down is the non-pivot foot; as long as the player releases the ball before bringing the pivot foot back down, no traveling has occurred.

See the rules (www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Basketball_Rules_2008-09fb2fc956-7592-4877-993e-dae20a6f90ed.pdf) for more details.

DukeDevilDeb
01-16-2009, 10:02 PM
Maybe my memory is bad, but last season, the PlayCaller promised us a segment where he was going to break down what Hans really does with his feet. I don't recall seeing it; maybe he did so, and I missed it. Anyone remember if he 'splained it all to us?

He never did! PlayCaller, where are you?

Virginian
01-17-2009, 12:18 AM
If that were actually the travel rule we'd hardly ever see a legal break-away dunk.

That actually is the rule. You can look it up.

Virginian
01-17-2009, 12:23 AM
This isn't correct. The first foot to hit the floor does not necessarily become the pivot foot, because the rules allow the player to leave the floor off that foot (before bringing the other one down) and come back down on both feet. From that position, neither foot may be used as a pivot foot.

In addition, a player may pick up their pivot foot without traveling as long as they don't return the pivot foot to the ground before releasing the ball. This is why you often see what looks like two steps on a drive--the first foot that comes down is the pivot foot, and the second foot to come down is the non-pivot foot; as long as the player releases the ball before bringing the pivot foot back down, no traveling has occurred.

See the rules (www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Basketball_Rules_2008-09fb2fc956-7592-4877-993e-dae20a6f90ed.pdf) for more details.


That's my point exactly: he's moving his pivot foot and jumping into the lane without shooting. It's only when he's jumped into the lane on both feet (a traveling violation ) that he then puts up a shot. The rules say he has to shoot BEFORE his feet hit the floor. And that's not what he does. The rules are quite clear; it's just that the refs never call the violation.

greybeard
01-17-2009, 12:36 AM
In both, I see at most a borderline walk (drag of the ivot foot immediately preceding the shot. In Harsbrough's case, the way I see it, he starts his dribble backwards with his feet, stepping through with his right first and catching it before the left foot hits the ground. The right foot as I see it is his pivot foot. As I understand the rules, he can then move that left foot as many times as he likes; as long as the right foot pivots and does not move, no walk. Hansbrough turns back to the baseline with three left steps going clockwise, the first two the pivot foot seems rock solid. The third he might have lifted it a bit but it is hard to say for sure. I say it was a judgment call, that I wouldn't question. The video was not that clear and what with Knight talking about 5 steps and what not I had trouble discerning what the heck he was talking about. The only way Knight's commentary makes sense to me is if he saw Hansbrough lift the right foot while planting the left originally, or saw him lift it when going back. He didn't say it and I didn't see it.

The Oklahoma kid likewise established in my view his right foot as his pivot foot. His last step with his left might have caused the right foot to lift slightly off the floor or slide. Again hard to tell. Might have been easier to make that call than Hansbrough's.

I agree with Knight that too much walking goes uncalled but I do not see either of these as the major culprits. I see guards getting a running start off the catch, taking a full two plus when it should be a 1 plus. I see bigs shuffling all the time on put backs, especially dunks. And, I am completely flumexed by this rule about being able to step and then step again with your pivot foot before shooting the ball; ditto with a one-two (step-slide catching before the slide) jump and then jump again to shoot. To me both are walks.

Rule out the dunk and rule out bobby-ba;ll defense, which would be all that pushing and shoving everywhere on the court but mostly inside to impede a person's moving even without the ball and even away from the basket. You put your body on someone and impede movement, it's a foul. It always was until bobby's force of personality, and some thrown chairs, made it otherwise. Ruined the g-d damn game, he did, all by himself.

captmojo
01-17-2009, 09:27 AM
Acknowledgment by Coach Knight is what we've all witnessed here for the last three years of watching the big guy in baby blue.

If the second foot hits the floor, without releasing possession of the ball though a pass or shot, the player has committed a traveling violation. It's that simple. This can be policed by officials with a coordinated effort of trailing refs watching steps while the one under the rim sees the action above the floor.

Also prevalent, but unmentioned, is the practice of rocking the pivot point back and forth between toe and heel, many times going uncalled.

jv001
01-17-2009, 09:29 AM
Yes and carrying the ball has been made a point of interest but it's still done way too much. I can remember when your hand had to be almost on top of the ball when dribbling. There's no wonder players can't defend the drive or cross over. Bobby Hurley could dribble the ball without carrying it better than anyone I can remember. Go Duke!

HoopsFan
01-17-2009, 09:38 AM
Elton Brand was great with the pivot. A lot of opposing fans would scream for a travel call, but replays showed he was just using the pivot very well. Sometimes, you may see a travel called when it was just a good pivot. I wonder if the refs find it too close to call when a player is moving so quickly it's hard to tell if it was a good pivot.

Now the Hansblah clip was just disgusting. I hope a lot of refs see the slo-mo breakdown.

I agree, to me it's just as irritating when they call a travel on a legal pivot as it is when they blow an obvious travel. I find that refs often call travel if something looks funny when in fact the pivot foot never moved.

captmojo
01-17-2009, 09:44 AM
Good morning Jay! Please pass along our kudos to Coach Knight for his keen powers of observation.

calltheobvious
01-17-2009, 09:53 AM
That actually is the rule. You can look it up.

I've actually read it hundreds of times over the years. And from the looks of one of your recent posts, you used the link a PP provided to check it out yourself and provide a case play that reflects a more accurate understanding of the rule.

bjornolf
01-17-2009, 11:00 AM
I was going to point that out (about lifting but not putting the pivot foot back down). Otherwise, every jumpshot would be traveling. I am a little confused on what constitutes a "jumpstop" vs. a travel though. And if you jumpstop, you don't get a pivot foot? So, you can't move at all w/o traveling? I didn't know that. I could have sworn I've seen guys get away w/ that before. Cool.

bjornolf
01-17-2009, 01:00 PM
On the other hand, I thought the TH example was a pretty obvious travel to me. He moved the left foot, establishing his right as the pivot foot, then lifted his right foot and put it back down once, thus traveling, then moved his left foot again, then lifted his right foot AGAIN and put it back down, thus traveling again, then moved his left foot once more before shooting. Bobby counted left, right, left, right, left, or five steps by his observation. I thought it could have been better explained than just "five steps", but the close-up replay clearly shows that he lifted and replanted his right, or pivot, foot twice in between swinging his left leg around. That's traveling. Twice by my count.

RelativeWays
01-17-2009, 07:48 PM
I couldn't help it. I poked in on IC just to see if anyone brought this up and it was. One guy said "Well if Tyler hadn't been hacked, he wouldn't have to travel" and the rest latched on to it, like crazed sheep having a crisis of faith and looking for anything to justify their beliefs, they latched on to it. I couldn't believe it. Hole fans really are mindless sheep, the mascot is definitely fitting. None of them will ever entertain the thought that their beloved star player walks, gets phantom fouls, and best of all, flops like a fish for defense, which we're sooooo bad and evil about, right? They had another thread about the possibility of Jeff Capel being the next Duke coach and one guy said "no way, the crazies booed him his senior year, he won't coach there." The other sheep bleated in agreement. Did they conveniently forget that they did THE EXACT SAME THING TO HIS BROTHER SEVERAL TIMES, OR WHEN THEY BOOED KING RICE? I can deal with fans of a rival team, even an arch rival, but I can't deal with stupidity, and those people are quite stupid.

Hancock 4 Duke
01-17-2009, 11:07 PM
That is how he gets EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS POINTS. Now that is just a problem with the NCAA refs. In the NBA, they wont have to take one blink on that stuff. And also everytime he gets it and scores, the refs "coincidentally" happen to call a defensive foul. There is something wrong with that kid. You can see it in his balloon eyes.

Devilhawks
01-18-2009, 05:29 PM
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3837838

In the middle of the video, Knight spends about 30 seconds analyzing a blatant travel by Tyler, and complains that he and others get away with it frequently.

greybeard
01-18-2009, 07:03 PM
On the other hand, I thought the TH example was a pretty obvious travel to me. He moved the left foot, establishing his right as the pivot foot, then lifted his right foot and put it back down once, thus traveling, then moved his left foot again, then lifted his right foot AGAIN and put it back down, thus traveling again, then moved his left foot once more before shooting. Bobby counted left, right, left, right, left, or five steps by his observation. I thought it could have been better explained than just "five steps", but the close-up replay clearly shows that he lifted and replanted his right, or pivot, foot twice in between swinging his left leg around. That's traveling. Twice by my count.

That was helpful. I looked at it again and saw the two walks, the second more obvious than the first.

Virginian, thanks for posting the rules. Also very helpful; I now understand the step/jump-stop/jump-shoot being legal. I got that right, it is legal, right? :eek:

feldspar
01-19-2009, 10:43 AM
That had to be one of the most idiotic segments I've seen from Coach Knight.

Yes, Hansbrough clearly traveled. (Are we surprised?)

The problem with Knight's segment was that it was pretty obvious even he doesn't know what a travel is. He kept referring to "the number of steps taken," which is about the worst way (but the most common by fans and coaches) of determining whether a player has traveled or not.

The second example was not a travel. Griffin caught the ball and dribbled, then picked the ball up with his right foot as pivot, took a couple of steps with his non-pivot foot, then rotated his pivot foot (which Knight called a "step), then stepped through with his non-pivot foot and went up for a shot. Clearly not a travel.

The other problem with Knight's segment is that he was sitting on a couch watching SLOW MOTION REPLAY. Officials don't live in a world of slow motion replay, Coach. You see what you see, and you have a split-second to make a decision.

Not to mention that traveling is, by far, the hardest call in basketball. That's in my opinion, and the opinion of a heck of a lot of D-1 officials who I talk to.

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-19-2009, 11:08 AM
That had to be one of the most idiotic segments I've seen from Coach Knight.

Yes, Hansbrough clearly traveled. (Are we surprised?)

The problem with Knight's segment was that it was pretty obvious even he doesn't know what a travel is. He kept referring to "the number of steps taken," which is about the worst way (but the most common by fans and coaches) of determining whether a player has traveled or not.

The second example was not a travel. Griffin caught the ball and dribbled, then picked the ball up with his right foot as pivot, took a couple of steps with his non-pivot foot, then rotated his pivot foot (which Knight called a "step), then stepped through with his non-pivot foot and went up for a shot. Clearly not a travel.

The other problem with Knight's segment is that he was sitting on a couch watching SLOW MOTION REPLAY. Officials don't live in a world of slow motion replay, Coach. You see what you see, and you have a split-second to make a decision.

Not to mention that traveling is, by far, the hardest call in basketball. That's in my opinion, and the opinion of a heck of a lot of D-1 officials who I talk to.

I want to be sure that I understand what you said. Are you calling out Coach Knight?;)

feldspar
01-19-2009, 11:15 AM
I want to be sure that I understand what you said. Are you calling out Coach Knight?;)

When it comes to announcing, no topic makes commentators (Knight included) seem less informed and more uneducated than when they start pontificating about the officiating. More often than not, they are flat-out wrong when it comes to their rules citations. It happens to the best of them.

I really like Knight as a color commentator. But he, like most commentators out there, don't do their homework when it comes to officiating.

calltheobvious
01-19-2009, 11:16 AM
I want to be sure that I understand what you said. Are you calling out Coach Knight?;)

Feldsar fears no man...not even that one. Especially when that man is propagating silliness about basketball officiating.

Seriously, ESPN can't find anyone more credible to do these segments than the perpetrator in the most famous coach-referee altercation in the history of ever?

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-19-2009, 11:17 AM
When it comes to announcing, no topic makes commentators (Knight included) seem less informed and more uneducated than when they start pontificating about the officiating. More often than not, they are flat-out wrong when it comes to their rules citations. It happens to the best of them.

I really like Knight as a color commentator. But he, like most commentators out there, don't do their homework when it comes to officiating.
What's the source of your expertise on the rules and officiating?

Papa John
01-19-2009, 11:40 AM
And if you jumpstop, you don't get a pivot foot?

From what I recall, this is the case... If you jumpstop, you essentially have no established pivot foot, so if you take a step, you are traveling...


So, you can't move at all w/o traveling?

Actually, you can, because you can leave your feet... It's only if one [or both] feet then touch the floor while you are still in possession of the ball that it becomes traveling... At least that's my understanding of the rule...

bjornolf
01-19-2009, 11:56 AM
Well, right. You can ALWAYS take a jumpshot. I guess when I say "move", I mean change the position of a foot as it relates to the floor in the 2-D sense.

sagegrouse
01-19-2009, 12:00 PM
What's the source of your expertise on the rules and officiating?

Aha! "bluedress" is calling out feldspar.

sagegrouse

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-19-2009, 12:08 PM
Aha! "bluedress" is calling out feldspar.

sagegrouse
No, not at all. I learned to ask lots of questions and find out as much as I could at Dear Ole Duke. Something about working on the Chanticleer staff ...... you know the questions..... Who? What? When? Where? How?

barely
01-19-2009, 09:34 PM
Forgive me if I missed this on a previous thread, but did anyone see the UNC-Nevada game several weeks ago and, in particular, Hanstravel's blatant flop around the 6-minute mark? Anyone have a video of it? I watched a few minutes of the game to see how Luke Babbit, a former key target for Coach K, looked (he was pretty darn impressive, by the way). Hanstravel tried on a few occasions to guard Babbit. Babbit generally made HT look silly. Babbit is a lefty and has some resemblance in his game to Chris Mullins - looks of head fakes, ball fakes and jab steps from the triple threat position. Anyway, at one point Babbit jabstepped HT and he immediately flopped after feigning a defensive drop step. In the interest of full disclosure, Babbit did step on the end of HT's shoe, but it shouldn't have made a 250-pound guy flop down with arms and legs flailing.

It would be priceless to put the clip together with the Coach Knight critique. By any chance does anyone have a clip of the flop?

DukeUsul
01-19-2009, 09:40 PM
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H0Hvh1gQ3c) one?

barely
01-20-2009, 11:30 AM
Thanks DukeUsul. That's a good one, and I thought that there was another one that showed an even more exaggerated flop. I should have kept that game on the DVR!

feldspar
01-20-2009, 11:36 AM
I thought that there was another one that showed an even more exaggerated flop.
Are you talking about this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0upQDkY-pg), perhaps?

calltheobvious
01-20-2009, 01:39 PM
Are you talking about this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0upQDkY-pg), perhaps?

Ouch. It hurts my eyes to see Greg hit the floor so hard there.

greybeard
01-20-2009, 02:10 PM
That had to be one of the most idiotic segments I've seen from Coach Knight.

Yes, Hansbrough clearly traveled. (Are we surprised?)

The problem with Knight's segment was that it was pretty obvious even he doesn't know what a travel is. He kept referring to "the number of steps taken," which is about the worst way (but the most common by fans and coaches) of determining whether a player has traveled or not.

The second example was not a travel. Griffin caught the ball and dribbled, then picked the ball up with his right foot as pivot, took a couple of steps with his non-pivot foot, then rotated his pivot foot (which Knight called a "step), then stepped through with his non-pivot foot and went up for a shot. Clearly not a travel.

The other problem with Knight's segment is that he was sitting on a couch watching SLOW MOTION REPLAY. Officials don't live in a world of slow motion replay, Coach. You see what you see, and you have a split-second to make a decision.

Not to mention that traveling is, by far, the hardest call in basketball. That's in my opinion, and the opinion of a heck of a lot of D-1 officials who I talk to.

Sometimes on moves like that, which were money to the extent there was any in my game), there is a tendency to lift the pivot foot ever so slightly before what is seen as a two footed jump (not a problem for me because I don't think my version of elevation actually qualified as a jump (I only wish I was kidding). I really don't know whether that would make it a walk or not, notwithstanding your repeated guidence on the matter and even after reading the rule. :o

barely
01-22-2009, 01:02 AM
Are you talking about this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0upQDkY-pg), perhaps?

Feldspar, why aren't you over at IC debating why Hanswalker doesn't get a foul call everytime he breathes like the rest of the Tarholes?

Here's the Hanswalker(Hansflopper?) flop. It has always frustrated me that 250 lb guy would flop on these plays. Absolutely pitiful.

barely
01-22-2009, 01:02 AM
Feldspar, why aren't you over at IC debating why Hanswalker doesn't get a foul call everytime he breathes like the rest of the Tarholes?

Here's the Hanswalker(Hansflopper?) flop. It has always frustrated me that 250 lb guy would flop on these plays. Absolutely pitiful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQGPVL5wCms

bjornolf
01-22-2009, 07:06 AM
My favorite was that a few days after that segment, we had the Georgetown game. At around the 6:00 mark of the 2nd half a Georgetown player was holding the ball out near half court with a Duke player guarding him from about five feet away. There was nobody else within twenty feet of them, so both officials had a clear view of him. He got nervous holding the ball while being guarded away from the basket (he wasn't a guard, it might have been Monroe), and while holding the ball, not dribbling, he took a baby step with his right foot, then a baby step with the left, then another with the right, and ANOTHER with the left. No traveling call. I was shocked by that, cause even I saw it clearly in real time. I rewatched it a few times to make sure I was seeing what I saw, but there it was. Did anybody else see that?

Lavabe
01-22-2009, 07:49 AM
During last night's game, a VaTech player did one of the most blatant walks befgore taking another two steps, leading into a jumper. It sparked an eruption from the Wake coach, causing the coach to get a technical.

WHEN will officials really start to crack down on it?

feldspar
01-22-2009, 10:50 AM
During last night's game, a VaTech player did one of the most blatant walks befgore taking another two steps, leading into a jumper. It sparked an eruption from the Wake coach, causing the coach to get a technical.

WHEN will officials really start to crack down on it?

You're insinuating that officials are intentionally letting it go. I would ask from where you are drawing that assumption.

Acymetric
01-22-2009, 10:59 AM
You're insinuating that officials are intentionally letting it go. I would ask from where you are drawing that assumption.

If 3 refs aren't collectively competent enough to call blatant traveling violations, maybe we should get a 4th who only watches the ballhandler's feet.

feldspar
01-22-2009, 11:16 AM
If 3 refs aren't collectively competent enough to call blatant traveling violations, maybe we should get a 4th who only watches the ballhandler's feet.

So, in your opinion, it is a problem of competence?

Interesting that you find three ACC officials (Cahill, Mike Eades and Brian Dorsey) who are, quite literally, at the top of their "game" incompetent. These guys get asked by the commissioners of the ACC, Big East, Big Televen and other top conferences to do big games like this every season.

So, I'd beg to differ that it's a problem with competence.

Following your logic, it would seem that if Duke mis-executes on the offensive end or Singler misses a wide-open three, that must mean Coach K is incompetent. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-22-2009, 11:37 AM
Remember when Coach K countered charges that Duke gets all the calls by asking if that meant the games were fixed? For those who question the competence and training of officials, are you saying the conference would assign inadequate officials to the conference games? Or any games?

feldspar
01-22-2009, 01:11 PM
Remember when Coach K countered charges that Duke gets all the calls by asking if that meant the games were fixed? For those who question the competence and training of officials, are you saying the conference would assign inadequate officials to the conference games? Or any games?

It's human nature.

That's why message boards exist. Because we know better. We could do a better job than the guy doing the job right now. Not because we're more qualified, but because we just know better.

Officials “mess up” not because they see things differently or they maybe just missed it, or they actually know the rules better, but because they’re incompetent. Why do we reach that conclusion? Because we’re smarter than they are. We must be. Their job looks pretty easy from the barcalounger or the third row. Anybody could do it.

Fish80
01-22-2009, 01:12 PM
You're insinuating that officials are intentionally letting it go. I would ask from where you are drawing that assumption.

I know that you have a great deal of experience and expertise on these matters. Can you help me understand why these "obvious" traveling violations are not called?

P.S. Sorry, our posts crossed, you've already answered my question, thanks.

feldspar
01-22-2009, 02:45 PM
I know that you have a great deal of experience and expertise on these matters. Can you help me understand why these "obvious" traveling violations are not called?

P.S. Sorry, our posts crossed, you've already answered my question, thanks.

Ask 50 officials, and at least 45 of them will say that traveling is the hardest thing to call in basketball.

You have to, in a matter of less than a second, look at the players feet, determine which foot is the pivot foot, then track that pivot foot while also tracking the ball and watching for contact.

All the while, not having the luxury of sitting on a couch watching slow-mo replay like Bobby Knight.

Officials certainly do miss travel calls. No doubt about that. But they also know the travel rule better than anyone else on the court or anyone in the stands.

Consider for a moment that there is the possibility that some of the travels you scream for on TV actually, by rule, aren't travels at all.

Fish80
01-22-2009, 02:58 PM
Ask 50 officials, and at least 45 of them will say that traveling is the hardest thing to call in basketball.

You have to, in a matter of less than a second, look at the players feet, determine which foot is the pivot foot, then track that pivot foot while also tracking the ball and watching for contact.

All the while, not having the luxury of sitting on a couch watching slow-mo replay like Bobby Knight.

Officials certainly do miss travel calls. No doubt about that. But they also know the travel rule better than anyone else on the court or anyone in the stands.

Consider for a moment that there is the possibility that some of the travels you scream for on TV actually, by rule, aren't travels at all.

Thanks. Personally, I scream at the TV much more often over hard contact underneath the basket that isn't called. A lot of monkey business goes undetected in the trenches. We perpetrate as much of that monkey business as does the opposition. I recall seeing Sheldon deploy some unusual tactics on more than one occasion.

The traveling call is not a particular pet peeve of mine, just another interesting part of the game.

Rudy
01-22-2009, 03:17 PM
Jump stops are often a source of fan disgruntlement. The rule that covers it is here

"Section 68. Traveling
. . .
Art. 3. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and
establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the
pivot foot;
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously
land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.
b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a
step;
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both;
neither foot can then be the pivot foot."

So if a player picks up his dribble, he can take one step to a jump stop, and as long as he doesn't move either foot (except to go up for a shot or pass), he hasn't travelled. (68.3.b.2.) If he goes into his jump stop from his dribble before he takes the first step, either foot can be used as the pivot. (68.3.a.1.)

What seems to be ignored routinely, but is a no-harm-no-violation situation IMO, is the guards catching the ball out front followed by a one-two step. The refs then let them use either foot as a pivot. The one-two step is apparently treated as a jump stop (both feet simultaneously).

The speed of the game and angles of sight excuse most missed calls. I forgive them usually. The ones that are really bad are where they don't see what happened and assume something bad anyway, like the Greg Monroe T when the ref had his back to the bench, or the T call against McFarland in the Wake/Clemson game. The latter was particularly bad because it seems they looked at the replay and confirmed the double-T call.

calltheobvious
01-22-2009, 09:05 PM
In addition to all of the points Feldspar made about the difficulties of refereeing travels, there's one he didn't mention: officials are trained to "referee the defense," which means that our primary focus is normally not on the feet.

People may complain that this principle needs revising, but I can promise you that if the instructions changed so that officials were focusing first on travels and second on fouls, you'd be much, much unhappier with the results.

On a related note, though some of it is certainly explained by the entertainment effect, one of the reasons that fewer travels are called in the NBA is that officials are even more focused on refereeing the defense than the guys at the college level. This is because in order to call tougher plays you have to be more sound in the fundamentals.

Edouble
01-23-2009, 01:44 AM
Ask 50 officials, and at least 45 of them will say that traveling is the hardest thing to call in basketball.

Will the other 5 say that their grandmother is the hardest thing to call (because she just goes on and on)?

feldspar
01-23-2009, 10:46 AM
Will the other 5 say that their grandmother is the hardest thing to call (because she just goes on and on)?

Nice.