US Airways flight from NY - Charlotte in Hudson river

[Channing]

after a failed takeoff.

Prayers are with every and anyone involved.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

after a failed takeoff.

Prayers are with every and anyone involved.
Watching it on TV. The plane (flight #1549) landed on the Hudson River - it didn't break up and didn't catch fire. Ferry boats were aiding in the rescue of 146 passengers and 5 crew. I think everyone got off the plane before it sank (which it now has).

[DukieInKansas]

Very impressive job by the flight crew.

I hate geese.

[Windsor]

I guess the ferry was there immediately, putting life vests in the water - survivor being interviewed is saying the life rafts deployed and the stepped on one. He didn't even get wet.

It seems everyone got out ok....lots of ferry/tug/coast guard/shipping traffic in that area. Plenty of boats arrived on scene very quickly.

[TillyGalore]

I guess the ferry was there immediately, putting life vests in the water - survivor being interviewed is saying the life rafts deployed and the stepped on one. He didn't even get wet.

It seems everyone got out ok....lots of ferry/tug/coast guard/shipping traffic in that area. Plenty of boats arrived on scene very quickly.

That is both amazing and AWESOME. So glad when things like this turn out well.

[EarlJam]

Reminds me of Air Florida in the early 80s when it hit a bridge and crashed in the Potomac on an icy, snowy day. Only a few survived that one.

This sounded more like a controlled crash into the river, with the plane hitting at a much less severe angle.

Also, wow. Understatement of a lifetime to say Kudos to the rescue teams and the crew.

The Cockpit Voice Recorder should be interesting to hear. Wonder if the pilots reference the birds.

-EarlJam

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The Cockpit Voice Recorder should be interesting to hear. Wonder if the pilots reference the birds.

-EarlJam
Yes. The pilots radioed in that they had hit birds. A flock of geese I believe. Many of them got ingested into both engines.

[2535Miles]

Reminds me of Air Florida in the early 80s when it hit a bridge and crashed in the Potomac on an icy, snowy day. Only a few survived that one.

This sounded more like a controlled crash into the river, with the plane hitting at a much less severe angle.

Also, wow. Understatement of a lifetime to say Kudos to the rescue teams and the crew.

The Cockpit Voice Recorder should be interesting to hear. Wonder if the pilots reference the birds.

-EarlJam
That was Air Florida Flight 90. Lost family friends on that flight, but I don't really remember it.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

That was Air Florida Flight 90. Lost family friends on that flight, but I don't really remember it.
Here's the story of Palm 90
http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-af90.shtml

[captmojo]

28 years experience combined with the possibility of divine intervention did magical wonders here. The pilot's experience and training mixed with the good fortune of having enough altitude to get over the GW bridge...then the good work of the attendant crew to co-ordinate calm with the resolved calm of the 150 passengers...Wow! :):):)

[blublood]

Yes. The pilots radioed in that they had hit birds. A flock of geese I believe. Many of them got ingested into both engines.

"Ingested"?? Eeeewww.... poor little guys. Is this enough grounds to renew the DBR initiative to consider Canada Geese pests and allow them to be shot on sight?

[allenmurray]

I have never been afraid to fly. Even after this crash I would still get on a plane tomorrow if I had to. However, it is pretty disconcerting to think that a small flock of geese can bring down a major jet.

This is another reason that these evil creatures must disappear. Have you ever seen the damage they can cause to a Little League Baseball field?

[Channing]

I have never been afraid to fly. Even after this crash I would still get on a plane tomorrow if I had to. However, it is pretty disconcerting to think that a small flock of geese can bring down a major jet.

This is another reason that these evil creatures must disappear. Have you ever seen the damage they can cause to a Little League Baseball field?

never a baseball field - but I have seen them completely destroy a fairway before.

[devildeac]

I have never been afraid to fly. Even after this crash I would still get on a plane tomorrow if I had to. However, it is pretty disconcerting to think that a small flock of geese can bring down a major jet.

This is another reason that these evil creatures must disappear. Have you ever seen the damage they can cause to a Little League Baseball field?

or sidewalk

or golf course

I hate 'em

[Windsor]

I love geese....

roasted, with a nice orange glaze...
... or honey and apples

Now if I only knew a beer that would go nicely with either of those......

[blublood]

^^ I have literally considered this. I mean, we're broke and here are all these nice, edible pests running around that abandoned lot.... hmmm.... couldn't cost too much to have them plucked and processed, right? :) The same fate would have befallen the suburban deer who like to destroy my garden long ago if it weren't for the fact that I don't think I could bring one down safely with a single shot.

[DukieInKansas]

^^ I have literally considered this. I mean, we're broke and here are all these nice, edible pests running around that abandoned lot.... hmmm.... couldn't cost too much to have them plucked and processed, right? :) The same fate would have befallen the suburban deer who like to destroy my garden long ago if it weren't for the fact that I don't think I could bring one down safely with a single shot.


The ones around here are not the most intelligent creatures on the face of the earth - I think you could walk up to one and grab it. I believe someone wanted to "cull the herd" of some of these annoying birds and use them in soup kitchens but activists thought it was cruel to the animals. I say put them to good use and eat them.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

:) The same fate would have befallen the suburban deer who like to destroy my garden long ago if it weren't for the fact that I don't think I could bring one down safely with a single shot.
Tilly took down a deer recently with a single car...

[TillyGalore]

Tilly took down a deer recently with a single car...

As opposed to a married car. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[DukieInKansas]

As opposed to a married car. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

How can you tell if it is single or married? Do they wear a ring in a visible place? (I think there is something about rings and an engine in a car, but I'm lucky I know how to change a tire.)

[TillyGalore]

How can you tell if it is single or married? Do they wear a ring in a visible place? (I think there is something about rings and an engine in a car, but I'm lucky I know how to change a tire.)

I was going with the if I'm single it's single thought process. But then realized, my mother, who is married to my father, had the car before me. So, how can the car go from being married to single other than a divorce, or God forbid, death of a spouse?

P.S. I can change a tire too and the light bulbs. At least the ones that are easily accessible. :D

[alteran]

I guess the ferry was there immediately, putting life vests in the water - survivor being interviewed is saying the life rafts deployed and the stepped on one. He didn't even get wet.

It seems everyone got out ok....lots of ferry/tug/coast guard/shipping traffic in that area. Plenty of boats arrived on scene very quickly.

A friend and I were talking about how all those boats immediately steamed to the crashed jet.

In some ways, NYC is the safest place in the world.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

A friend and I were talking about how all those boats immediately steamed to the crashed jet.

In some ways, NYC is the safest place in the world.
I saw an interview with one of the boat captains. He said they actually train for that kind of thing!

[TillyGalore]

US Airways sent each passenger on the flight a check for $5,000, plus checks reimbursing the passengers for the tickets. I've never heard of this before, do the airlines routinely do this whether or not there are survivors?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/01/20/usairways.passengers/index.html

[-jk]

US Airways sent each passenger on the flight a check for $5,000, plus checks reimbursing the passengers for the tickets. I've never heard of this before, do the airlines routinely do this whether or not there are survivors?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/01/20/usairways.passengers/index.html

Wouldn't surprise me if cashing the checks releases USAir from any further claims.

-jk

[OZZIE4DUKE]

US Airways sent each passenger on the flight a check for $5,000, plus checks reimbursing the passengers for the tickets. I've never heard of this before, do the airlines routinely do this whether or not there are survivors?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/01/20/usairways.passengers/index.html
I think they are being "preemptively" generous. Usually with this type of crash landing, there are no, or very few, survivors. As I said above, these people just experienced the best day of their lives, and they have quite a story to tell about it. I would imagine that there will be a movie made about this, and that royalties paid to the passengers might be quite large!

[TillyGalore]

Wouldn't surprise me if cashing the checks releases USAir from any further claims.

-jk

Ahhh, that explains a lot.

[devildeac]

I love geese....

roasted, with a nice orange glaze...
... or honey and apples

Now if I only knew a beer that would go nicely with either of those......

Hmm, let's see...

fowl, kinda gamey...

A modestly bitter IPA would probably hold up well. An ESB might be a nice pairing, too.

[Kimist]

It has been reported that the same aircraft had some stalling problems in one or both engines less than a week before the NYC crash. No geese were involved, although loud noises/intermittent stalls apparently occurred.

Per CNN: "...Two days before US Airways Flight 1549 crashed into the Hudson River, passengers on the same route and same aircraft say they heard a series of loud bangs and the flight crew told them they could have to make an emergency landing..."

Based upon what the physical examination of the two engines shows, this new information could raise some extremely interesting possibilities.

k

[Highlander]

A question for the lawyers on the board...

Given the publicity and catastrophic nature of USAir flight 1529, do you think there is any grounds for the passengers to file suit, and if so, on what grounds? Second question is whtether any of them actually will.

I couldn't come up with any reason to sue. The double bird hit was a freak accident. The fact that they survived the crash was because of the pilot's tremendous skill, not incompetence. Every one on the plane survived, and the only injury I've heard of was a couple of broken bones. I've also heard that the airline is giving each passenger $5,000 to replace their damaged luggage, and will recover any irreplacable items once the investigation is completed.

I'm just curious. Is there any liability here for the airline? Seems to me that everything happened as well as could have been expected under the circumstances.

[Channing]

its been a while since I took torts, but my guess is they will wait for an official report. In order for a lawsuit to succeed they would need either negligence or recklessness. If it turns out the pilots were negligent in hitting the birds, or landing in the river as opposed to an airport, or whatever the case may be, there will be a lot of people suffering from emotional distress that will file. I am not too sure what NY's statute/law for unintentional infliction of emotional distress is, but my guess is that it can only be tacked on to a negligence claim or recklessness claim.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Knowing that anytime you travel you take a certain risk (even driving or being driven), and knowing that nobody lost their lives, I wouldn't see much grounds for a suit. I'm sure some ambulance chaser does, and is probably pressing somebody to sue. If they do sue, I hope they are held up to public ridicule. Also we will see new warning stickers on planes.
"CAUTION, This plane may hit a bird and crash. Do not feed the geese."

[allenmurray]

I hope if someone brings suit the judge allows it to proceed. And then orders that they must sue the geese.

[JStuart]

If ever there were a situation where everything possible that could be done by the Airline to avoid problems, this surely was it.
That being said, I'm sure someone maybe looking at the Airbus's design, and there's always the chance that someone 'knew' the geese always flew that route on alternate Thursdays at 3:45pm, etc., etc., and covered it up!
I do seem to remember that Airbus had been criticized for using a two-engine design, and that some aircraft engineers argue that for planes of that size, 3 engines are a minimum, in case of engine failure....

[CathyCA]

Let's see. . . every person on board survived. What are the damages?

I wouldn't touch it.

[allenmurray]

Let's see. . . every person on board survived. What are the damages?

What if someone's pants got damaged? According to DC Administrtive law Judge Roy Pearson, that is worth 54 million dollars. 150 passengers, with an average of two pair of pants each in their luggage, times 54 million? Those geese better have deep pockets! :D

[Cavlaw]

Let's see. . . every person on board survived. What are the damages?

I wouldn't touch it.
If survival were the only standard under which damages were awarded, we'd live in a mighty dangerous society.

I suspect there is probably a colorable case against some party, based on the fact that planes don't normally fall from the sky. Was the control tower negligent in not delaying takeoff a fwe minutes for the geese to clear the area? Was the pilot negligent in selecting a water landing rather than trying to get to a runway or highway? Was it really the geese, or did the ground crew fail to fuel an engine? Did the maintenance team fail to properly maintain the engine, resulting in the shutdown when a goose was sucked in?

There are plenty of questions to be asked. Just because the best possible scenario occured after the accident - nobody died - doesn't mean that somebody didn't make a mistake that caused the accident and so should be responsible for property damage and physical and emotional injuries to the passengers.

[allenmurray]

If survival were the only standard under which damages were awarded, we'd live in a mighty dangerous society.

I suspect there is probably a colorable case against some party, based on the fact that planes don't normally fall from the sky. Was the control tower negligent in not delaying takeoff a fwe minutes for the geese to clear the area? Was the pilot negligent in selecting a water landing rather than trying to get to a runway or highway? Was it really the geese, or did the ground crew fail to fuel an engine? Did the maintenance team fail to properly maintain the engine, resulting in the shutdown when a goose was sucked in?

There are plenty of questions to be asked. Just because the best possible scenario occured after the accident - nobody died - doesn't mean that somebody didn't make a mistake that caused the accident and so should be responsible for property damage and physical and emotional injuries to the passengers.

Or it could all boil down to this: Canadian Geese are evil!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Or it could all boil down to this: Canadian Geese are evil!
They are Canada Geese. Unless they were actually born in Canada. Then they can be Canadian.

[allenmurray]

They are Canada Geese. Unless they were actually born in Canada. Then they can be Canadian.

Ah, but this fits with my theory - they are terrorists and they purposefully spread confusion about their origins. The don't even carry passports.

[Channing]

Or it could all boil down to this: Canadian Geese are evil!

The question I have is how are there not some sort of protective covering over the engines (sort of like what is now being mandated for swimming pool drains) to prevent something like this. Surely this isnt the first time birds have been sucked into engines.

[CathyCA]

If survival were the only standard under which damages were awarded, we'd live in a mighty dangerous society.

I suspect there is probably a colorable case against some party, based on the fact that planes don't normally fall from the sky. Was the control tower negligent in not delaying takeoff a fwe minutes for the geese to clear the area? Was the pilot negligent in selecting a water landing rather than trying to get to a runway or highway? Was it really the geese, or did the ground crew fail to fuel an engine? Did the maintenance team fail to properly maintain the engine, resulting in the shutdown when a goose was sucked in?

There are plenty of questions to be asked. Just because the best possible scenario occured after the accident - nobody died - doesn't mean that somebody didn't make a mistake that caused the accident and so should be responsible for property damage and physical and emotional injuries to the passengers.

Well, then, if anyone comes my way wanting to sue USAirways, I'll refer them to you.

As I said, they all survived. I've made a personal decision that I'm not taking the case.

[-jk]

Or it could all boil down to this: Canadian Geese are evil!

And stupid, too.

I once hit a goose with my bike. I was riding down a bike path (and, man!, can they make a mess on a bike path) approaching a flock of 'em. Half ambled to the left, half to the right. One changed its mind just as I came through: Bam!

I didn't stop to see how hurt it was; those suckers can be ornery.

-jk

[JasonEvans]

A friend sent me this (http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N64/squidvswhale.html). It is the (imaginary) thoughts of an MIT student on the plane as it crashed. The article is pure geek porn!! Hysterical.

My favorite part is this--


Oh man, and I’m never going to get a chance to see “Watchmen”. That trailer rocked. I hope it’s better than “The Spirit”. Although Scarlett Johansson is so hot. I should spend my last seconds of life thinking about her. Her and Summer Glau. River Tam is so awesome. I bet she could survive this plane crash.

--Jason "good stuff!" Evans

[OZZIE4DUKE]

And stupid, too.

I once hit a goose with my bike. I was riding down a bike path (and, man!, can they make a mess on a bike path) approaching a flock of 'em. Half ambled to the left, half to the right. One changed its mind just as I came through: Bam!

I didn't stop to see how hurt it was; those suckers can be ornery.

-jk
Better be careful, Cavlaw might sue you for reckless biking in a bird area. :rolleyes::D

[rsvman]

The question I have is how are there not some sort of protective covering over the engines (sort of like what is now being mandated for swimming pool drains) to prevent something like this. Surely this isnt the first time birds have been sucked into engines.

I'm not an aeronautics engineer or anything, but the amount of air that has to get sucked through those engines to produce the amount of thrust they need to get the plane to fly is tremendous. Anything blocking (even partially) the flow of that air would probably make flying more dangerous rather than less so.

And yes, birds get sucked into engines all the time. It doesn't always cause catastrophic failure. A lot of it depends on the weight of the bird. There is a place where people study the remains of birds sucked through engines (in order to ascertain what types of birds they are and where the incidents occur), and they say they got about 6000 samples last year. :eek:

[OZZIE4DUKE]

And yes, birds get sucked into engines all the time. It doesn't always cause catastrophic failure. A lot of it depends on the weight of the bird. There is a place where people study the remains of birds sucked through engines (in order to ascertain what types of birds they are and where the incidents occur), and they say they got about 6000 samples last year. :eek:
And as we learned in the post event TV interviews, the engine manufacturers test extensively how their engines behave when a bird is ingested, trying to make sure the engines survive the encounter. They use already dead birds (probably those killed in oil spills :rolleyes:).

BTW, many of the GE engines in use today are made in GE plants in Durham and Wilmington, NC.

[allenmurray]

There is a place where people study the remains of birds sucked through engines (in order to ascertain what types of birds they are and where the incidents occur), and they say they got about 6000 samples last year. :eek:

NPR did a piece on that last week. It was pretty interestng. They have even coined a term for bird remains scraped off of engine components - snarge.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99474333

[OZZIE4DUKE]

They have even coined a term for bird remains scraped off of engine components - snarge.

Sounds like what happens if you snarf pastrami too fast :eek:

[devildeac]

Sounds like what happens if you snarf pastrami too fast :eek:

Oh my word, another pastrami reference...;)

[EarlJam]

NPR did a piece on that last week. It was pretty interestng. They have even coined a term for bird remains scraped off of engine components - snarge.

[/url]

Tasty!

"Could I get a large order of snarge, cooked medium-well, with a glass of sweet tea please?

"Would that be the American Airlines variety or Delta?

"Delta please."

"Baby, you're gonna love the snarge here. It's the best."

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Tasty!

"Could I get a large order of snarge, cooked medium-well, with a glass of sweet tea please?

"Would that be the American Airlines variety or Delta?

"Delta please."

"Baby, you're gonna love the snarge here. It's the best."
EJ, you made me snarf, er, spew my drink.