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BlueintheFace
01-15-2009, 12:52 PM
Through three games in the ACC we have seen Jon, G, and Kyle play quite a few minutes. I know some on this board are concerned about this...

Is Kyle okay since he isn't playing out of position and is bigger now?

Are the minutes actually just right for these three? Thoughts?

Here are the minutes in the 3 ACC games so far:

Kyle: 37, 34, 37
Jon: 34, 38, 34
G: 32, 34, 36

NOTE: PLEASE, do not make this about where every minute should go (Marty needs 2 more... give some to E-will, etc...)

ncexnyc
01-15-2009, 01:08 PM
I believe these are the type of minutes you're going to see from these 3 players the remainder of the season.

I understand we have depth this year, but as I've said before, it's not true depth, as all of our bench players give us defense, but no offensive. The exception being Paulus, who until yesterday, hasn't been much of a factor.

Huh?
01-15-2009, 01:16 PM
We just play so hard there has to be a way to shave some of these off....but would it truely make a difference? I remember a media person asking Battier (my father) about playing so many minutes and he responded with something along the lines of, "I'm 20 years old, I shouldn't get tired."

yancem
01-15-2009, 01:19 PM
Through three games in the ACC we have seen Jon, G, and Kyle play quite a few minutes. I know some on this board are concerned about this...

Is Kyle okay since he isn't playing out of position and is bigger now?

Are the minutes actually just right for these three? Thoughts?

Here are the minutes in the 3 ACC games so far:

Kyle: 37, 34, 37
Jon: 34, 38, 34
G: 32, 34, 36

NOTE: PLEASE, do not make this about where every minute should go (Marty needs 2 more... give some to E-will, etc...)

I think that this is going to be a problem, especially for Singler. We have E-Will and Pocius who can and probably will spell Scheyer and Henderson at different points of the season and as Paulus get's more into a groove his minutes will go up. Plus Scheyer has played extended minutes for the past 2 years so his body should be fairly used to it.

Singler is in a different situation. K doesn't seem to like putting Zoubek and Thomas on the floor together and when you pair McClure with either of them, there is a severe lack of offense available from the post. I have also noticed in the last couple of games that Singler and McClure have been logging significant minutes together which means that Singler is back guarding the opponent's largest player.

Singler is bigger and stronger and I don't think you can discount another year of conditioning but if he keeps logging 35+ minutes per game with significant time spent at the 5, then I would be surprised if he didn't burn out by the end of the year.

trinity92
01-15-2009, 01:20 PM
In pre-conference play, Zoubek and Thomas were scoring threats, as opposed to contributing only rebounds and defense. In addition, Nolan was better able to run the team in OOC play-- he's still learning. As a result, in conference play, we have looked very similar to recent Duke teams-- relegated to finding open shots on the perimeter rather than carving up defenses or pounding the ball inside, and the "big 3" are the best we have for that style of offense, and the best 3 players we have at our disposal. They're going to have to play a lot of minutes for the foreseeable future.

Given the strides Z, LT and Nolan made in the off-season, and their resulting improvements in the first part of this season, I'm hoping they are just taking time to adjust to the higher-quality ACC competition, combined with the added difficulty of playing teams that know our system. This team needs time.

Ideally, Z and LT will continue to develop over the conference season so that they will start contributing in ACC play at the level they were in OOC play. Until they do, every game will be tight until late, and there won't be as many minutes for the bench guys. Specifically with regard to Singler, he's going to have to shoulder a lot of the post burden until he gets some help. Similarly, Nolan is a work in progress as a floor general, but I know he will "get it" at some point.

We didn't add any freshmen who were paradigm shifters, so it would have been optimistic to expect a totally different team this year from last. The improved early season play of the three players I mentioned gives us cause for optimism that by the end of the season, we'll have a more balanced attack, where our "big 3" won't have to play such heavy minutes. Optimism aside, if Z and LT don't develop the way we need them too, then Singler will wear down, and we can expect the same post-season success as recent years, but at least we have Kelly and Plumlee2 coming in next year. There's no reason to expect a different result if we field the same effective team as previous years.

Cavlaw
01-15-2009, 01:54 PM
I have some trouble with the "worn down" premise over the course of a season, considering these are young athletes in terrific shape. A couple days of rest should be enough for them to recover from any stretch of games, and I imagine K reduces practice intensity towards the end of the season so the guys are in top form.

I'm more inclined to buy into the "worn down" premise at the end of a game, but my non-statistical recollection is that FT and 3 point shooting has generally improved in the second half as guys got into rythme, rather than falling off due to fatigue.

Jumbo
01-15-2009, 02:05 PM
Through three games in the ACC we have seen Jon, G, and Kyle play quite a few minutes. I know some on this board are concerned about this...

Is Kyle okay since he isn't playing out of position and is bigger now?

Are the minutes actually just right for these three? Thoughts?

Here are the minutes in the 3 ACC games so far:

Kyle: 37, 34, 37
Jon: 34, 38, 34
G: 32, 34, 36

NOTE: PLEASE, do not make this about where every minute should go (Marty needs 2 more... give some to E-will, etc...)

Please demonstrate that playing 37 minutes instead of 32, or whatever, makes any difference whatsoever in performance. Please.

Meanwhile, here are some numbers for you:
Jon Scheyer with 30-plus minutes this season: 16.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.6 spg, .451 FG%, .852 FT%, .436 3PT%
Jon Scheyer with less than 30 minutes this season: 10.4 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, 1.9 spg, .407 FG%, .786 FT%, .292 3pt%
Doesn't look like big minutes are hurting him at all. In fact, they seem to help. If you go back and look, this is a trend through his career.

Kyle Singler with 30-plus minutes this season: 17.2 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, .450 FG%, .630 FT%, .340 3pt%
Kyle Singler with less than 30 minutes this season: 16.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.9 spg, 0.7 bpg, .521 FG%, .780 FT%, .333 3pt%
Kyle's numbers look better in the low-minute games. Then again, we have to consider that those games came against weak opponents.

Gerald Henderson with 30-plus minutes this season: 19.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.8 spg, .549 FG%, .778 FT%, .727 3PT%
Gerald Henderson with less than 39 minutes this season: 11.4 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.7 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg, .448 FG%, .821 FT%, .333 3PT%
Gerald's sample size is really small, but he's certainly not suffering.

From those numbers, we can conclude with a fairly high degree of certainty that logging heavy has not impacted performance in individual games. Maybe Kyle's shooting has suffered. Maybe. Then again, you'd expect everyone's shooting to suffer because presumably, guys are playing big minutes against better teams, who should be stronger defensively, etc.

Now, maybe your point is that playing those many minutes over the course of a season will lead to tired legs in March. We've argued that to death over the last few years. Someone will point to Singler's struggles down the stretch last year. I'll post Battier's 30-plus-minute stats in response. Someone will claim that J.J. wore down. I'll mention that Shelden played just as many minutes and, over the last two months of his senior season, averaged 20 ppg, 11.8 rpg. 4.0 bpg and shot .556 from the field and .730 from the line.

Then we'll have the same debate about how practices are far more tiring than games, and playing an extra 10 minutes of game time each week should not build up to some sort of critical fatigue level. And then we'll have the same argument three days later. Woohoo!

Kedsy
01-15-2009, 02:15 PM
Please demonstrate that playing 37 minutes instead of 32, or whatever, makes any difference whatsoever in performance. Please.

Meanwhile, here are some numbers for you:
Jon Scheyer with 30-plus minutes this season: 16.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.6 spg, .451 FG%, .852 FT%, .436 3PT%
Jon Scheyer with less than 30 minutes this season: 10.4 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, 1.9 spg, .407 FG%, .786 FT%, .292 3pt%
Doesn't look like big minutes are hurting him at all. In fact, they seem to help. If you go back and look, this is a trend through his career.

Kyle Singler with 30-plus minutes this season: 17.2 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, .450 FG%, .630 FT%, .340 3pt%
Kyle Singler with less than 30 minutes this season: 16.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.9 spg, 0.7 bpg, .521 FG%, .780 FT%, .333 3pt%
Kyle's numbers look better in the low-minute games. Then again, we have to consider that those games came against weak opponents.

Gerald Henderson with 30-plus minutes this season: 19.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.8 spg, .549 FG%, .778 FT%, .727 3PT%
Gerald Henderson with less than 39 minutes this season: 11.4 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.7 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg, .448 FG%, .821 FT%, .333 3PT%
Gerald's sample size is really small, but he's certainly not suffering.

From those numbers, we can conclude with a fairly high degree of certainty that logging heavy has not impacted performance in individual games. Maybe Kyle's shooting has suffered. Maybe. Then again, you'd expect everyone's shooting to suffer because presumably, guys are playing big minutes against better teams, who should be stronger defensively, etc.

Now, maybe your point is that playing those many minutes over the course of a season will lead to tired legs in March. We've argued that to death over the last few years. Someone will point to Singler's struggles down the stretch last year. I'll post Battier's 30-plus-minute stats in response. Someone will claim that J.J. wore down. I'll mention that Shelden played just as many minutes and, over the last two months of his senior season, averaged 20 ppg, 11.8 rpg. 4.0 bpg and shot .556 from the field and .730 from the line.

Then we'll have the same debate about how practices are far more tiring than games, and playing an extra 10 minutes of game time each week should not build up to some sort of critical fatigue level. And then we'll have the same argument three days later. Woohoo!

Thank you, Jumbo! I agree with every single word you said (except possibly the "39" which I assume was supposed to be "30," although I suppose "39" isn't really a word, anyway, is it?), and I'm getting quite tired of having this argument after every single game.

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 02:24 PM
I think that a big difference between JJ/Kyle and Shane/Shel is that JJ and Kyle are the primary focus of opposing teams D; they face very intense pressure and relentless focus, and on top of that if JJ or Kyle doesn't score, we are doomed, whereas if Shel or Shane didn't score, they had guys who could pick up the slack and they were not the focus as much. Also, maybe the guys who Kyle and JJ are seeing against them are bigger or stronger or more athletic than they are, whereas Shel and Shane rarely saw guys bigger and stronger up against them? Are JJ and Kyle simply not in as good shape as the guys you mentioned? Do they play harder? Do they have to work harder for what they get? Clearly there is something going on there.

Jumbo, let me ask this of you; JJ has spoken of being tired at the end of a few seasons, and Kyle spoke of it last season. Jay mentioned it during the last game, and plenty of other professional analysts have discussed it at length. If this is not an issue, why is are these people, who we assume know a bit about the game, bringing it up?

I know this is a bit of a dead horse, and I know that both "sides" of the "argument" wish we wouldn't have it (for very different reasons, maybe) but unfortunately over the last few years it seems to come up again and again, and not always just on forums, but sometimes from the lips of Duke players and former Duke players turned announcers:)

One note, as a former athlete; practice in no way, hope, or form holds a candle to real games, either in what is demanded of a person or in what you learn about a person.

weezie
01-15-2009, 02:28 PM
I think that during the conference season, as the scouting becomes more accurate, opposing teams think they have ways to stop/guard/frustrate our players. We've seen it work in the first half of the past two games, when we've looked a bit tentative and not scored at will. By the second half, we've looked stronger than the opponents because we are settled into relentless defense and we wear them out. FSU in particular was completely gassed at the end of that game. They start losing their step, flailing around and we are lucky to always be ready to stick the dagger in on any mistakes. No other team can keep up on defending us because playing defense is boring and unexciting.

But then again, sometimes the ball takes a while to warm up and bounce right for us! :)

BlueintheFace
01-15-2009, 02:38 PM
Please demonstrate that playing 37 minutes instead of 32, or whatever, makes any difference whatsoever in performance. Please.

Meanwhile, here are some numbers for you:
Jon Scheyer with 30-plus minutes this season: 16.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.6 spg, .451 FG%, .852 FT%, .436 3PT%
Jon Scheyer with less than 30 minutes this season: 10.4 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, 1.9 spg, .407 FG%, .786 FT%, .292 3pt%
Doesn't look like big minutes are hurting him at all. In fact, they seem to help. If you go back and look, this is a trend through his career.

Kyle Singler with 30-plus minutes this season: 17.2 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, .450 FG%, .630 FT%, .340 3pt%
Kyle Singler with less than 30 minutes this season: 16.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.9 spg, 0.7 bpg, .521 FG%, .780 FT%, .333 3pt%
Kyle's numbers look better in the low-minute games. Then again, we have to consider that those games came against weak opponents.

Gerald Henderson with 30-plus minutes this season: 19.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.8 spg, .549 FG%, .778 FT%, .727 3PT%
Gerald Henderson with less than 39 minutes this season: 11.4 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.7 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg, .448 FG%, .821 FT%, .333 3PT%
Gerald's sample size is really small, but he's certainly not suffering.

From those numbers, we can conclude with a fairly high degree of certainty that logging heavy has not impacted performance in individual games. Maybe Kyle's shooting has suffered. Maybe. Then again, you'd expect everyone's shooting to suffer because presumably, guys are playing big minutes against better teams, who should be stronger defensively, etc.

Now, maybe your point is that playing those many minutes over the course of a season will lead to tired legs in March. We've argued that to death over the last few years. Someone will point to Singler's struggles down the stretch last year. I'll post Battier's 30-plus-minute stats in response. Someone will claim that J.J. wore down. I'll mention that Shelden played just as many minutes and, over the last two months of his senior season, averaged 20 ppg, 11.8 rpg. 4.0 bpg and shot .556 from the field and .730 from the line.

Then we'll have the same debate about how practices are far more tiring than games, and playing an extra 10 minutes of game time each week should not build up to some sort of critical fatigue level. And then we'll have the same argument three days later. Woohoo!

Please read my post again, and tell me how I supported the position that the extra minutes have any effect whatsoever. Please. I was simply asking for opinions on the matter since I have noticed that a number of posters have started to gripe about the issue. Spit your vitriole in a different direction Jumbo. I actually remain undecided and tend to believe that emotional stress has more of an effect than minutes played, but really I am just looking for somebody to convince me one way or another.

... and by the way, perhaps one of the hundreds of new posters around here have some unique perspectives on the matter. I keep posting on the same old topics, yet somehow one of the newbies always finds a way to add something interesting to the debate. You of all people should know this since every poster is a newer one to you

rockymtn devil
01-15-2009, 02:40 PM
Now, maybe your point is that playing those many minutes over the course of a season will lead to tired legs in March. We've argued that to death over the last few years. Someone will point to Singler's struggles down the stretch last year. I'll post Battier's 30-plus-minute stats in response. Someone will claim that J.J. wore down. I'll mention that Shelden played just as many minutes and, over the last two months of his senior season, averaged 20 ppg, 11.8 rpg. 4.0 bpg and shot .556 from the field and .730 from the line.

Without passing judgment on the overall point of this thread, the JJ/Shelden example is not a good one to prove your point. Because JJ was primarily a jump shooter (at least for his first two years), if he was tired it was going to be more evident than in Shelden, who played down low. JJ's jump shot never seemed to be there in March (minus a lights out performance against State in the ACC Final). Did this have to do with fatigue? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Given that this year's team is much more reliant on jump shooting than the Brand/Boozer/Williams teams, it seems a pertinent discussion even if some on here are sick of seeing it.

If you're arguing--as you appear to be--that fatigue was not the cause of JJ's March shooting struggles, what then was? Or, perhaps, you're arguing that some players are impacted by fatigue and some aren't. If that's the case, then I guess we have to wait and see in March if shots stop falling.

DevilWolf
01-15-2009, 02:42 PM
I'm going to guess that the ranking for record minutes played during a career goes as follows:

1) Laettner
2) Hurley
3) Hill

None of those guys ever looked worn down by the end of the year, except for Hurley's freshman year but we all know why that was.

Scorp4me
01-15-2009, 02:48 PM
It's not wether someone plays 37 or 32 minutes a game. I'm sorry but I always have to laugh when I see this argument. I mean really does anyone really think about what they're saying when they say it?

I think the more apt reasons are mental fatigue from a season worth of games. Many come into college better ready to handle this, heck some probably play more games before they get to college than they do. But nothing can prepare them for the rigors of college life and it's definately an adjustment. I believe that's where that phrase comes from. Doesn't it go something like the best thing about Freshman is they becomes Sophmores. And we usually see a huge improvement between those years.

The other fatigue probably comes from being the focus of a team. Having to do this or always do that on your own. It doesn't seem to be bothering Stephen Curry but apparently our players or more prone to it according to this board. In either case, the scoring load, the load to play inside, the ball handling load, no matter what you look at is better spread around than it was last year.

These kids play for Duke. I mean they're good. They're in shape. It's not a 3 or 4 minutes here a game. It's all that comes with playing for Duke that wears them down I would bet.

ncexnyc
01-15-2009, 02:49 PM
I'm going to guess that the ranking for record minutes played during a career goes as follows:

1) Laettner
2) Hurley
3) Hill

None of those guys ever looked worn down by the end of the year, except for Hurley's freshman year but we all know why that was.

I think it's also safe to say that not every kid who dons a Duke uniform has the talent of a Laettner, Hurley, or Hill.

So asking why minutes didn't effect these players like others isn't valid. Not all players are alike nor are all teams alike. Some have more depth with interchangeble parts and some don't.

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 03:47 PM
Without passing judgment on the overall point of this thread, the JJ/Shelden example is not a good one to prove your point. Because JJ was primarily a jump shooter (at least for his first two years), if he was tired it was going to be more evident than in Shelden, who played down low. JJ's jump shot never seemed to be there in March (minus a lights out performance against State in the ACC Final). Did this have to do with fatigue? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Given that this year's team is much more reliant on jump shooting than the Brand/Boozer/Williams teams, it seems a pertinent discussion even if some on here are sick of seeing it.


Interesting to differentiate between jump shooters and not. One thing, tho... JJ did perform quite well in the ACC tournaments, IIRC... didn't he win a few MVPs? It was mainly the NCAA tournament I think that people feel he faded, which comes after the grueling ACC tournament.

Also, I might agree with Hill and Hurley, but did Christian start his freshmen year? Where would we find the "minutes played" for Duke players anyway? I'd be curious about that.

blueprofessor
01-15-2009, 04:02 PM
freshman in 1988-1989.
He averaged 8.9 ppg,4.7 rpg, shot 72.3% from the floor and 72.7% from the foul line.
His minutes increased as a soph to 1135 in 38 games.

This info is published in the Duke basketball yearbooks.

Best regards and go,Duke! :D:)
Blueprofessor:):D

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 04:05 PM
Ah thanks so much! So can I ask, do you know if there is a place to see all-time minutes played? I am afraid I am at school, so a lot of websites are blocked here:(

And btw... that is some shooting percentage!

1DevilishKing
01-15-2009, 04:20 PM
Ncaa consist of two half's. So the minutes are spread around equally. Some more than others. But I feel that as long as our primary players are out there producing assists, points and rebounds, steals and so on. There's no need to fear. Time is of the essence, And our "Soldiers" are out there getting the job done. With the time they are allotted. My one concern is that our "Depth" won't get enough time out on the court in time for the next several Big games we have approaching. the hoyas are going to be a factor to deal with and so will clemson and all the rest. But I have utmost faith in coach K and the team, win or lose. We will make it down the stretch into the March madness. Note: you will never read a doubtful word
written by this abroad "BlueDevil".

1DevilishKing.

Johnboy
01-15-2009, 04:22 PM
Where would we find the "minutes played" for Duke players anyway? I'd be curious about that.

Charlie Board (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/)for complete ACC stats (1954-2002) - and the first place I usually look and a wonderful treasure - a great place to go and waste time looking up all the players of yore. Here's Hill (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player851.txt), Hurley (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player914.txt)and Laettner (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player1089.txt). There's also and Duke Basketball Database (http://www.sportsstats.com/duke/).

Since 2002, there's the comprehensive database run by GoDuke.com (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/). This latter site looks to be all you need, but since its interface isn't as familiar to me, I rarely use it if the info is on Charlie Board.

There are other sites, of course, like Duke Update and Duke Basketball Database, that have stats and links to other sites with stats in various formats.

jv001
01-15-2009, 04:40 PM
I have three thoughts on minutes affecting players. 1. As young as these guys are, I don't think 30-34 mins per game have an affect on their play at the end of the year. 2. For some reason the last two years we looked tired at the end of the year. 3. I think we were mentally tired and the shots just didn't fall. Last year Rice(BC) avg 38mpg, Vasquez(md) avg 37 mpg, Douglas(Fl St) avg 35 mins, Rich(Fl St), hammonds (Clem), Vassallo(VT) all avg 34mpg. I never heard that their play was adversely affected by 30+mpg. I think that playing for Duke University carries alot of weight on these young guys and some to that weight comes from the Duke fans expectancy. I would just like to see this team play, have fun and enjoy the season. Come prepared every game and take nothing for granted. Defense will win us championships this year. Go Duke!

Jumbo
01-15-2009, 05:57 PM
Where would we find the "minutes played" for Duke players anyway? I'd be curious about that.
There are both season- and player-based databases at goduke.com (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/season-stats.php?season=2008-09).

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 06:09 PM
Thanks all for the stats websites. I knew about the GoDuke one, but not the Charlie one. I want to check it out and see if I can find some of the all-time minutes guys.

Anyone wanna take any guesses at who the top 3 (by minutes played over a career) at Duke would be?

Jumbo
01-15-2009, 07:46 PM
Please read my post again, and tell me how I supported the position that the extra minutes have any effect whatsoever. Please. I was simply asking for opinions on the matter since I have noticed that a number of posters have started to gripe about the issue. Spit your vitriole in a different direction Jumbo. I actually remain undecided and tend to believe that emotional stress has more of an effect than minutes played, but really I am just looking for somebody to convince me one way or another.

... and by the way, perhaps one of the hundreds of new posters around here have some unique perspectives on the matter. I keep posting on the same old topics, yet somehow one of the newbies always finds a way to add something interesting to the debate. You of all people should know this since every poster is a newer one to you

Vitriol (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vitriol). My post (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=242051&postcount=7). I'm not sure that word means what you think it does.
Was I slightly sarcastic in a couple of spots? Sure. Vitriolic? Not even close.

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 09:22 PM
Okay, I might be stupid, but is there a way to find top minutes played at Duke? I couldn't find it at GoDuke or Charlie, unless you go through each career individually... anyone know of a place of the top, or should I really look?

Jumbo
01-15-2009, 09:25 PM
Okay, I might be stupid, but is there a way to find top minutes played at Duke? I couldn't find it at GoDuke or Charlie, unless you go through each career individually... anyone know of a place of the top, or should I really look?
Should be in the media guide (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&KEY=&ATCLID=1628392&SPID=1845&SPSID=22748).

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 09:28 PM
Oh lordy, never saw that before. Thanks!

Okay, here we go... hey, I'll make it another thread, maybe people will enjoy guessing (if they don't already know.)

BlueintheFace
01-15-2009, 10:29 PM
Vitriol (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vitriol). My post (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=242051&postcount=7). I'm not sure that word means what you think it does.
Was I slightly sarcastic in a couple of spots? Sure. Vitriolic? Not even close.

sounded like ferous sulfate to me...

JDev
01-15-2009, 11:16 PM
I know this may be oversimplifying it quite a bit, but those three guys are far and away Duke's best players, and for Duke to be good they have to be on the floor. When any one of those guys is sitting Duke drops a notch. These guys are Duke's best scorers, and it becomes increasingly hard to sit them when Duke struggles a bit offensively, as they have lately. I think this becomes more of a moot point if some of the other guys, namely Nolan and Zoubek, can pick up their level of play as conference games continue. Both of those guys have played at a high level multiple other times this season, and they could find that groove again any game.

quickgtp
01-15-2009, 11:24 PM
I have some trouble with the "worn down" premise over the course of a season, considering these are young athletes in terrific shape. A couple days of rest should be enough for them to recover from any stretch of games, and I imagine K reduces practice intensity towards the end of the season so the guys are in top form.

I'm more inclined to buy into the "worn down" premise at the end of a game, but my non-statistical recollection is that FT and 3 point shooting has generally improved in the second half as guys got into rythme, rather than falling off due to fatigue.

People need to realize that YES these kids can wear down. I know this personally because I played sports in college and, even though I was in superior shape, I would still get tired throughout the season. Now it was not basketball, but it was ice hockey which is just as, if not more tiring then basketball. You can take the athlete in the best shape in the world and he will still get worn down as you lean on him/her more and more.

UrinalCake
01-15-2009, 11:32 PM
The other consequence of the starters playing a lot of minutes (which has also been discussed on these boards) is that the bench players aren't getting those minutes. No one really knows for sure what would the impact be if they did. Let's say it's the middle of the ACC season and player X, a starter, sits on the bench for a few minutes so that player Y can get into the game. Maybe player Y gains some valuable experience that comes in handy later in the year. But then again, what if player Y commits a couple turnovers and we end up losing the game? Was that a worthwhile tradeoff? Because of the loss, the confidence of the team as a whole goes down (which, I would argue, causes a mental "tiredness" that is worse than the physical fatigue of playing). It may impact our seeding in the tournament, which has a huge effect on our post-season success. And player Y isn't necessarily any more ready to contribute at the end of the year as a result of this.

Obviously this is a theoretical situation, and one thing does not directly lead to another... but I guess my point is that before saying that a certain player should play more or fewer minutes, you need to consider the alternatives.

Kedsy
01-15-2009, 11:42 PM
People need to realize that YES these kids can wear down. I know this personally because I played sports in college and, even though I was in superior shape, I would still get tired throughout the season. Now it was not basketball, but it was ice hockey which is just as, if not more tiring then basketball. You can take the athlete in the best shape in the world and he will still get worn down as you lean on him/her more and more.

Hey, did you play at Duke? When did you play? I was on the Duke ice hockey team in 1981-82.

I think people are mixing two subjects. Sure, kids can get tired, for a variety of reasons. I don't think anybody's disputing that, nor (I assume) does anyone doubt that several Duke players have worn down in recent years, because the coaches and kids themselves have said so. What some people (including me) are taking issue with is the idea that the wearing down has anything to do with how many minutes the kids play in the games. As someone who played ice hockey then and who plays pickup basketball now, the idea that five extra minutes of game time, twice a week in January, can be responsible for fatigue in March seems ludicrous.

What I think is we, as fans, don't see the practices; we don't see the kids in the locker room or (for the most part) on the campus. We can't say or measure why some of them have appeared to wear down in recent years so we latch onto one of the few (perhaps only) things we can objectively measure, which is minutes played per game. But just because we can measure it doesn't mean it's the cause of the problem.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
01-15-2009, 11:43 PM
I've never understood the whole idea of players wearing out during a college season... the game is only 40 minutes long... halftime...timesouts...tv timeouts....

Soccer is more physical and the halves are 45 minutes long. Maybe playing on a hard surface is far worse on the knees and ankles - but pro's seem to deal with it o.k. with older slower healing bodies and they play longer games and 5009380847190 more during the season.

These are just my thoughts, but I'm def not a bball expert. If there is any prolonged fatigue its probably just the mental stress you deal with when you decide to play at a program like Duke - especially if your a freshmen/soph and expected to help carry the team.

Jarhead
01-15-2009, 11:44 PM
Should be in the media guide (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&KEY=&ATCLID=1628392&SPID=1845&SPSID=22748).
Thanks for the meduia guide link, Jumbo. I just spent almost two hours looking at the statistics. The first thing noticed was the shooting percentages. They were high, typically above 50% for the whole team for the whole season. I started with the '78 team, .527 Duke, and .478 opponents. That's the season that they started recording minutes played. It seems to me that the minutes played followed pretty close to today's pattern. The stars got near 40 minutes in every game barring foul trouble. I just don't worry about the minutes. The greater the contribution you make, the more minutes you play. If it is an issue then the solution is better conditioning.

Cavlaw
01-16-2009, 08:58 AM
People need to realize that YES these kids can wear down. I know this personally because I played sports in college and, even though I was in superior shape, I would still get tired throughout the season. Now it was not basketball, but it was ice hockey which is just as, if not more tiring then basketball. You can take the athlete in the best shape in the world and he will still get worn down as you lean on him/her more and more.
It's great that you were a D1 athlete, but you shouldn't assume you are the only one of these boards who was. Quite a few of us were.

rockymtn devil
01-16-2009, 09:44 AM
It's great that you were a D1 athlete, but you shouldn't assume you are the only one of these boards who was. Quite a few of us were.

What's the point of this post? You're attacking a strawman here. quickgtp did not assume that he's the only D-1 athlete on these boards. He responded to a post by you asserting that young athletes do not wear down over the course of the season. He responded with a personal experience that, in fact, young athletes can wear down over the course of the season. Your post was close to an absolute (young players don't wear down over the course of the season). His wasn't (young plays can wear down). He makes a valid point from personal experience that you failed to address.

Where is the assumption on his part? With all due respect, your post--which does not address any of quickgtp's substance--looks like it was done simply to point out that you were a D-1 athlete (what substance is there in your response other than that?). So, in the words of a great poster here, "it's great that you were a D1 athlete". Perhaps you can drawn on that experience and provide a substantive response.

Cavlaw
01-16-2009, 10:14 AM
What's the point of this post? You're attacking a strawman here. quickgtp did not assume that he's the only D-1 athlete on these boards. He responded to a post by you asserting that young athletes do not wear down over the course of the season. He responded with a personal experience that, in fact, young athletes can wear down over the course of the season. Your post was close to an absolute (young players don't wear down over the course of the season). His wasn't (young plays can wear down). He makes a valid point from personal experience that you failed to address.

Where is the assumption on his part? With all due respect, your post--which does not address any of quickgtp's substance--looks like it was done simply to point out that you were a D-1 athlete (what substance is there in your response other than that?). So, in the words of a great poster here, "it's great that you were a D1 athlete". Perhaps you can drawn on that experience and provide a substantive response.
I don't see any absolutes in my original post, though I'll grant it was assertive. "I have trouble with", "should be enough", "I imagine" and "I'm more inclined" were the phrases I used. I read quickgtp's post as more absolute than you did: "he will still get worn down".

quickgtp's perspective as a former athlete is valuable. I did not intend to diminish that.

The words he chose to begin his post after quoting me, though, "People need to realize" and "I know from personal experience", suggested to me that he was asserting that his perspective (that of a college athlete) was, so far, unique in this thread and so worthy of a certain authority. The point of my response was to note that other former athletes post here, as well.

I don't see my response as particularly different than if I had bolted "I was an athlete in college, and based on my personal experience I have trouble with..." on to the beginning of my original post.

If my response was too abrupt for your taste, well, I'm sorry about that. Again, I don't mean to diminish the value of quickgtp's experience, just to point out that a singular personal experience, while valuable, isn't authoritative simply because it comes from an athlete.

Perhaps I was just overly sensitive to the wording of his first sentence "People need to realize" after he quoted me.

SupaDave
01-16-2009, 11:04 AM
I've never understood the whole idea of players wearing out during a college season... the game is only 40 minutes long... halftime...timesouts...tv timeouts....

And don't forget practice. Wait. We talking bout practice? Practice? Practice.

Oh yeah, don't forget school, girls, dogs, bills, shopping, community service, interviews, autograph sessions, pick-up ball, meet and greet with recruits, weightlifting, bruises, and I think you get the picture.

As a person who has burnt out from JUST life, I'm sure life as an elite athlete is quite a grind. As a pro - you get paid to sit in the training room. In college - you have to study in the training room. Huge difference.

-jk
01-16-2009, 11:44 AM
Let's carry this discussion on here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13750).

-jk