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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 70, Georgia Tech 56 Post-Game Thread



Jumbo
01-14-2009, 09:06 PM
Discuss ...

Hancock 4 Duke
01-14-2009, 09:07 PM
3-0 in the ACC BABY!! Singler started off awesomely, but Henderson gets my vote for player of the game!

77devil
01-14-2009, 09:08 PM
Looking forward to a home game.

Tonight was another good example of how defense prevails when the offense is not efficient.

grossbus
01-14-2009, 09:12 PM
"Looking forward to a home game."

we are going to have to play a lot better at that home game than we did tonight, final score notwithstanding.

roywhite
01-14-2009, 09:13 PM
24 wins of last 26 games vs Tech....wow

Really liked the second half...good defense, hit key shots. Nice contribution by McClure. Singler is everywhere and Gerald is now delivering consistently.

Always nice to get a road win in the ACC.

Jumbo
01-14-2009, 09:16 PM
"Looking forward to a home game."

we are going to have to play a lot better at that home game than we did tonight, final score notwithstanding.

To beat an elite team? Sure. At least at one end. You may not have noticed, but our defense was once again outstanding. This is the best defensive team Duke has put on the floor in years.

Yes, the offense has lacked flow for a couple of games now. But let's not forget that there's an entire other half of the game in which Duke is excelling.

geraldsneighbor
01-14-2009, 09:16 PM
Thoughts:
Kyle Singler:
Huge game. Helped us early, and often with buckets in clutch spots for us. His 13 rebounds were huge in a night that saw LT and Zoub not do very much.

G:
His continued maturation is huge. He give us another horse to do battle with Kyle. His 19 points tonight were big.

Greg Paulus:
I think we saw tonight when Greg can get a score early, he feeds off his confidence. The 3's were big and it looks like Greg is starting to find himself. He saw some big minutes tonight, especially early on.

Jon Scheyer:
Jon had probably his slowest shooting night of the season tonight. I think he started 1-10 from the field, but he finds ways to get to the line and when you need him he is there. Two big 3's in the second half helped us big.

The Big Men:
LT and Z both had 4 fouls, and also 2 pts and 7 rebounds between them. We need more from them then just going out there to use fouls, especially against teams like GT, who have larger front lines. While I was thrilled to see Kyle's post play tonight, I am a bit discouraged because I didn't want to have to see his post play. We definitely need a more consistent effort out of those guys because we can't afford to go stretches with Dave and Kyle having to be the 4 and 5 on offense and defense.

Good win, alot to learn from. Hopefully we will turn it on against a quickly improving Georgetown team Saturday.

superdave
01-14-2009, 09:16 PM
Our offense struggled tonight. It struggled against FSU. It has had droughts in almost every game this year (VT, Davidson, Michigan).

I really really really hope we start attacking the basket more this season because we are going to need to draw fouls and get points in the paint when the three-ball isnt falling. We could have used a few buckets from Zoubek tonight and more drives to the basket from all our wings. I think Nolan had one and the rest of the team had 2-3 drive and finishes combined. Whew.

If we played this poorly offensively against a top 50 team, we'd have lost.

But the Defense is great - no complaints on that end whatsoever.

Duvall
01-14-2009, 09:17 PM
.

If we played this poorly offensively against a top 50 team, we'd have lost.

We played worse offensively against a top 50 team on Saturday and won pretty easily.

superdave
01-14-2009, 09:19 PM
I agree on Paulus needing to knock down a shot early. He can score 8-10 quickly and really gives us a boost.

I also agree on Zoubek and Thomas. 2pts, 7 boards wont cut it comes March. We need at 10 points between the two of them to keep defenses honest.

trinity92
01-14-2009, 09:20 PM
This was an ugly win. We're playing great D, and Zoubek is a lot more solid with the ball, but we still don't have an inside guy we can dump it into, which leaves us shooting from the outside. The sky isn't falling, but we really need some more offensive production from Zoubek and Lance. It would be even nicer if Miles could earn some playing time, but let's not push the kid.

Glad to see Greg contributing-- Nolan is going to have growing pains learning to run the team, especially as conference play begins, and we need GP to be a very solid backup.

Good win, but u-g-l-y

Go duke!

superdave
01-14-2009, 09:21 PM
We played worse offensively against a top 50 team on Saturday and won pretty easily.

I thought we executed better Saturday but got pushed around a lot. Whereas tonight they seemed to be concentrating really hard on setting up plays rather than attacking.

delfrio
01-14-2009, 09:21 PM
I'm not sure the low-post concerns are really due to bad play on the part of Z and Lance (other than fouls). We used to throw the ball down low (to Z) and have him either kick it out or turn on the defender. I didn't much of that at all tonight.

Jumbo
01-14-2009, 09:23 PM
It would be even nicer if Miles could earn some playing time, but let's not push the kid.

But Miles isn't a low-post scorer, either. His skills in that area are really raw. If he's going to earn minutes, it will be with defense and rebounding. Right now, I think we're getting enough of that from Zoubs, LT and McClure (in addition to Singler, obviously). It's nice to think that he's another potential option down the line, though.

geraldsneighbor
01-14-2009, 09:24 PM
I haven't seen the minutes played by everyone yet tonight, but I assume it is pretty close between Nolan and Greg. Do you think if Greg continues to perform like he did tonight, is it possible for him to re-earn that starting spot?

I'm just not sure Nolan is ready to be the full-time PG for this team. He goes invisible in to many spots. He can definitely become a stud, I just don't know if were actually hurting ourselves sitting a 3 yr starter on the bench.

Jumbo
01-14-2009, 09:26 PM
I haven't seen the minutes played by everyone yet tonight, but I assume it is pretty close between Nolan and Greg. Do you think if Greg continues to perform like he did tonight, is it possible for him to re-earn that starting spot?

I'm just not sure Nolan is ready to be the full-time PG for this team. He goes invisible in to many spots. He can definitely become a stud, I just don't know if were actually hurting ourselves sitting a 3 yr starter on the bench.

When you're talking about Nolan "going invisible," you're focusing too much on offense. You're forgetting about his significant defensive advantage over Paulus. And right now this team is carving out an identity as a D-first squad.

geraldsneighbor
01-14-2009, 09:27 PM
When you're talking about Nolan "going invisible," you're focusing too much on offense. You're forgetting about his significant defensive advantage over Paulus. And right now this team is carving out an identity as a D-first squad.

Yeah, that's my mistake in not saying offensively. Nolan does give us a clear edge on defense, and I guess when your not letting teams get to 60 your going to win most games.

quickgtp
01-14-2009, 09:28 PM
I agree on Paulus needing to knock down a shot early. He can score 8-10 quickly and really gives us a boost.

I also agree on Zoubek and Thomas. 2pts, 7 boards wont cut it comes March. We need at 10 points between the two of them to keep defenses honest.

Well said! I am certainly worried that Zoubek is regressing against tougher ACC post players. I firmly believe Plumlee needs to start getting more PT.

Our defense was superb though!

SMO
01-14-2009, 09:29 PM
Duke shot 39% from the field, 33% from 3, and 59% from the FT line...and won by 14pts on the road. You gotta love this team. They're like the Pittsburg Steelers of college basketball.

Great D and very poor shooting from just about everywhere until a few 3's fell late. I thought they could have attacked the basket a little more, but the patient half-court worked well enough. I really hope the offense improves. Maybe we'll peak at the right time this year.

roywhite
01-14-2009, 09:31 PM
It would be interesting to get more "chalk talk" on just how Duke's defense shut down GaTech. The first 10 minutes, the Tech big men were able to get the ball close to the basket and were pretty effective.

Late in the 1st half and through-out most of the second half, we put really good pressure on the ball and forced their offense further out on the floor. Lawal got very few touches, let alone opportunities, down low.

VaTech, FSU, and Ga Tech are not necessarily great offensive teams, but they have all been held down by Duke's defense.

geraldsneighbor
01-14-2009, 09:33 PM
Duke shot 39% from the field, 33% from 3, and 59% from the FT line...and won by 14pts on the road. You gotta love this team. They're like the Pittsburg Steelers of college basketball.

Great D and very poor shooting from just about everywhere until a few 3's fell late. I thought they could have attacked the basket a little more, but the patient half-court worked well enough. I really hope the offense improves. Maybe we'll peak at the right time this year.

Good analogy. I expect to see a game of similar pace played Saturday with Georgetown. Again, rebounding will be of the utmost importance against Monroe and friends.

rockymtn devil
01-14-2009, 09:36 PM
Offense wasn't clicking again. It'll come. Too many weapons for it not to. I'd rather be sluggish in January if that means firing on all cylinders come March. G is now officially out of any early-season rut, and that's great news.

Defense started off slowly but was fantastic for the last 3/4s of the game. Someone who DVRd the game can confirm this, but I believe that at about the 10 minute mark in the first half GT was around 20 points, which is a bit high. I left to run to the store and made it back right at the start of the second half. Tech was at 28. The defense forced them into bad shot after shot and did a great job limiting second chance buckets. When this defense is on, it's extremely tough to score on Duke and, I would guess, will be highly frustrating for mentally weak teams.

Back-to-back ACC road games is tough on any team. Going into the game, I said I'd be satisfied with a win. Not only did they win, but they shrugged off a bad start and won going away. Good game.

ice-9
01-14-2009, 09:37 PM
Not the best game for us. With our poor offensive flow and high number of missed jump shots, we really should've been behind GT more in the first half if not for GT's comedy of errors. Seriously, I don't even think my Tuesday pick-up games have as many silly turnovers. Our defense eventually tightened and brought us back into the game.

Duke did too much standing around on offense. Even though G played a great game, sometimes he takes too much time to decide what to do with the ball in his hands. I'd like to see him go into action more quickly after catching the ball.

Kyle also played a good game and took it on himself to get rebounds, but you could see how exhausted he was by the end of the game. He missed quite a few free throws.

Scheyer had poor shot selection in the first half, overcompensated in the second half by passing out shots he should've taken, redeemed himself with two open 3s in the final quarter.

Zoubek played a solid game even though he didn't score many points. Many of Duke's rebounds were as a result of Zoubek's play so he had a bigger post presence than stats would indicate.

Paulus' points were key to getting our game around in the first half, but he made some mistakes after. Nolan was OK. Pocius made a surprise appearance; a testament to our poor shooting in the first half. McClure had a beautiful block on Schumpert. Lance didn't have the best game.

Overall, an ACC road win is an ACC road win, but this definitely wasn't the easy game I was expecting. Hope the team regroups and plays a better game this Saturday against Georgetown. Our identity may be that of an elite defensive team, but I think it's time for Coach K to put some emphasis on improving the offense.

KandG
01-14-2009, 09:38 PM
LOVE the defense. Offensive efficiency is pretty atrocious lately -- would really like to find a way to get easier baskets inside, rather than relying on 3s or Gerald going one on one. I know Jon's mini-slump made things look worse than they probably are, but I hope the last two games aren't a sign that physical teams can get him off his game and make us look this bad on offense.

Generally, I'm very encouraged...but like others, I'm waiting for another option to emerge or blossom scoring-wise. Nolan, Email, Zoubek...someone. I think Mile's a little too raw, and Marty shows flashes but may not have enough defensively to get minutes.

duketaylor
01-14-2009, 09:39 PM
I've only seen a couple of games this year; I've read articles and posts about all of them. Tonight I'm impressed with many aspects of what I saw. Not a beautiful offensive effort, but, G is improving and Kyle, Jon and Zoubs make smart plays and take good shots.

Let's talk defense. This team plays some awesome defense, slam dunk PERIOD. I mean the entire game I didn't really see any let-down on D. Best D I've seen since...let me think about finishing this answer, could be tomorrow or Friday. Reminded me of the Seinfeld episode when Uncle Leo was trying to steal a book from Bretanos and they swarmed on him. Duke plays a swarming defense and unc doesn't. There are lots of possibilities with this team, let's hope we go deeper than we've been accustomed to in recent years; it's early and we shall see.

I continue to think Kyle has Larry Legend genes; he gets "IT" which very few players ever have. Jon's not far from having "IT" as well, what a problem to have as a coach. Glad to see Greg play well, but still think Nolan's gonna see the Lion's share of minutes against elite PGs, see Ty and Teague.

Fun game to watch, I think we'll have many this year. GO DEVILS!!!

SMO
01-14-2009, 09:41 PM
Pocius made a surprise appearance; a testament to our poor shooting in the first half.

How fast is Marty's first step? I think it shocked Nessler when Marty attacked the basket. I hope to see more of that if he earns some PT.

HDB
01-14-2009, 09:41 PM
I for one am concerned. I saw sub-par play at the point and no post presence from Duke tonight. That won't cut it against the good teams. Isn't that exactly what has plagued Duke in March the last several years?

should_be_working
01-14-2009, 09:44 PM
Well obviously this was ugly. I felt like I was watching us play offense in slow motion - just a ton of waiting around for something to happen, and way too much dribbling. A win is a win, but we were playing what should have been a far inferior team, and we stuggled. On paper we should have beaten GT by 20+. This game was too close for my comfort. Defense wins games, but its not going to win us every game. We show up like this against Wake or UNC, and its easily a loss. I swear I think coach K is trying to "pace" us for a long season. I can't remember one fast break point (maybe two free throws late in the game for Jon) - no easy baskets tonight. I don't mean to be so negative, but its hard not to be after that offensive "explosion" :p

Its nice to be 3-0, and have such a nice record and know that our best basketball is ahead of us.

BlueintheFace
01-14-2009, 09:44 PM
1) Scheyer continued his struggles but seemed to find his shot at the end

2) Paulus had a solid first half

3) Nolan continues to look hesitant and sometimes invisible on offense while playing solid defense. I remember when we used to think that Nolan would bring a penetration game to the table, but he has only done so very rarely.

4) Singler is man of steel

5) The offensive struggles continue... and continue... and continue.

6) G has been playing well for 7 or 8 games now, but over the last two he has really asserted himself. He has looked aggressive and demanded the ball at times. You can see things starting to click for him on offense, and even though he has made some bad decisions ... he is making huge steps.

7) Is it just me or is Zoubek looking less and less confident with each game as the refs continue to call ticky-tack fouls

8) Defense continues to look very very good.

weezie
01-14-2009, 09:50 PM
It's kind of a parlor game right now..."spot the point guard" or something....

ForeverBlowingBubbles
01-14-2009, 09:52 PM
1) Scheyer continued his struggles but seemed to find his shot at the end

2) Paulus had a solid first half

3) Nolan continues to look hesitant and sometimes invisible on offense while playing solid defense. I remember when we used to think that Nolan would bring a penetration game to the table, but he has only done so very rarely.

4) Singler is man of steel

5) The offensive struggles continue... and continue... and continue.

6) G has been playing well for 7 or 8 games now, but over the last two he has really asserted himself. He has looked aggressive and demanded the ball at times. You can see things starting to click for him on offense, and even though he has made some bad decisions ... he is making huge steps.

7) Is it just me or is Zoubek looking less and less confident with each game as the refs continue to call ticky-tack fouls

8) Defense continues to look very very good.


G's averaging just around 17.5 points a game since after the loss to Michigan.

Billy Dat
01-14-2009, 10:04 PM
-The defense was great the whole game, Tech was just making a lot of contested shots in the first ten minutes, so many that I was getting that sick feeling that "maybe its one of those nights".

-I think it's tough to say we'd get whupped by an elite opponent based on an offensive performance because you have no idea how those opponents will react to our defense, Take Carolina...if our defense frustrated them, what are the odds that they'll buckle down on defense themselves? Maybe both ends of the floor suffer for them. The "what ifs" are just that, you can't tell what will happen until the two teams are actually playing.

-I thought it was great the K went to Marty when the offense was bogged down and I really felt like his presence opened things up. He loves to go hard to the hole and there is no way the guy guarding him is prepared for him to do that so he usually gets that step. It IS too bad that he D is keeping him off the court because he does bring a little spark to the offense. Interesting that he got those minutes tonight over EWill...but he's probably the better offensive player right now.

-I get very frustrated with Zoubek's frequent inability to grab rebounds and finish around the basket. He settled down toward the middle of the second half, but there were many instances where he fumbled rebounds, had the ball taken away after securing a rebound, or fouled a guy because he wasn't straight up and down. I agree with earlier posts that we should be looking for him more on offense as a distributor, but also to look for his shot once in a while. His O game seemed much more fully formed in the first 10 games this year.

-McClure's block at the end of the game was insane. I really feel like he has found another gear athletically.

-Love the star power in the building (Dennis Scott, Mark Price, Ricky Price, Andrew Jones). Leave it to the Devils to draw a crowd.

-G has really made a leap over the last few games, let's hope he keeps it up so that the Big 3 is just that.

-As for the other two legs of the triangle, what can you say? After a slow start, Singler kept coming and Scheyer didn't let his poor shooting for the first 30 minutes take him out of his game. Bilas always praises Singler's toughness and Scheyer's competitivess - I think both adjectives can describe both players.

Duvall
01-14-2009, 10:05 PM
A win is a win, but we were playing what should have been a far inferior team, and we stuggled. On paper we should have beaten GT by 20+.

What paper is that? Sagarin predicted a 13-point win; Pomeroy a 17-point win. The line was about 11.5, I believe.

It's an ACC road game.

DukeVol
01-14-2009, 10:10 PM
Did anyone catch the halftime comments during the game tonight?

Basically, the topic of conversation was, "Things that will hold Duke back from being a FF team this year."

Jimmy Dykes mentioned our interior play and rebounding troubles against bigger frontlines like WF and UNC.

Then, out of nowhere, Steve Lavin comments how we have significant problems with perimeter defense because of a lack of lateral quickness from..........yes, you guessed it, every WHITE player that gets substantial playing time. He mentioned Paulus, Scheyer, Zoubek, and Singler specifically by name.

I sat there dumbfounded trying to reconcile how we held FSU to 14 first half points (and 28 for GT) despite our lack of lateral quickness. I guess Nolan and G are so good they cover for the other three starters........

Troublemaker
01-14-2009, 10:13 PM
Duke actually covered the spread tonight, fyi. It wasn't an awful game by us at all, but obviously we did struggle offensively. I think we learned over the past couple of games that we don't want our offense to run up against tall, athletic teams. Unsurprisingly, it's tougher to get clean looks when the opponent is long and dedicated on defense, which FSU and GaTech are. The good news is that Duke won't run into teams with this kind of height often. FSU and GaTech are 1st and 15th in the country according to Pomeroy for "average height" and have similar rankings for "effective height" (which takes into account minutes played). Wake Forest is another tall team, and nationally, UConn and Gonzaga rank up there as well. Even though we struggled, I think it was noteworthy that we played GaTech even on the boards and grabbed a good amount of our own missed shots.

SupaDave
01-14-2009, 10:13 PM
Duke shot 39% from the field, 33% from 3, and 59% from the FT line...and won by 14pts on the road. You gotta love this team. They're like the Pittsburg Steelers of college basketball.


Great analogy but I'm thinking more Ravens - where the defense is also the offense.

Billy Dat
01-14-2009, 10:18 PM
Did anyone catch the halftime comments during the game tonight?

Basically, the topic of conversation was, "Things that will hold Duke back from being a FF team this year."

Jimmy Dykes mentioned our interior play and rebounding troubles against bigger frontlines like WF and UNC.

Then, out of nowhere, Steve Lavin comments how we have significant problems with perimeter defense because of a lack of lateral quickness from..........yes, you guessed it, every WHITE player that gets substantial playing time. He mentioned Paulus, Scheyer, Zoubek, and Singler specifically by name.

I sat there dumbfounded trying to reconcile how we held FSU to 14 first half points (and 28 for GT) despite our lack of lateral quickness. I guess Nolan and G are so good they cover for the other three starters........


I feel like announcers and analysts are reading off an old script when it comes to us this year. I'm not saying we're above criticism, but they tend to criticize things we are doing well (like stopping dribble penetration) and are lauding things we aren't doing so well ("they'll kill you with the 3 ball"). For a team that's currently ranked #2 in the country, I don't think these guys are doing enough homework on us. It's a strange situation of still having a big spotlight yet few TV media folks seem to be paying attention to who we are and what we do well, and not so well.

should_be_working
01-14-2009, 10:20 PM
What paper is that? Sagarin predicted a 13-point win; Pomeroy a 17-point win. The line was about 11.5, I believe.

It's an ACC road game.

Hahaha, i suppose it is my paper. I don't look at such predictions. I see GT as having a rough season (their record prior to this game was 9-6 and 0-2 in ACC play and bad losses to Illinois Chicago, and Penn st.) thus far and being a team that not only we should beat but beat handedly. Had they converted on some chippies and foul shots, it would have been even closer. But the same could be said about us had we converted more foul shots and 3 pointers. It was a close game all the way through untill the last few minutes. I just thought this one would be a little closer to a blow out, so it was a bit dissapointing for me. I realize there aren't any easy games in the ACC, especially road games, but it would be nice every once in a while to punch a team out after tipoff and keep em down. Past Duke teams have spoiled me. I should shut up and be happy with a win.

jv001
01-14-2009, 10:21 PM
Our best play continues to come from Kyle, Gerald and Jon. Kyle had a double-double 19 & 14, but missed 6 freethrows. Gerald was solid with 19-7 with excellent shooting..7/14 fgs, 3/4 freethrows, 2-2 threepointers, assist-to 3-3. Jon had 14 points but did not have a good shooting night. But once again showed the best ability to run the offense with 5 assists and 0 TOs. Zoubs played 19 mins with 5 rebounds, 2 pts, 1 assist, 1 TO, 1 block and 1 steal. Greg played the best he's played in a while. Maybe this get's him going. We will need him against Georgetown. Go Duke!

FireOgilvie
01-14-2009, 10:23 PM
Did anyone catch the halftime comments during the game tonight?

Basically, the topic of conversation was, "Things that will hold Duke back from being a FF team this year."

Jimmy Dykes mentioned our interior play and rebounding troubles against bigger frontlines like WF and UNC.

Then, out of nowhere, Steve Lavin comments how we have significant problems with perimeter defense because of a lack of lateral quickness from..........yes, you guessed it, every WHITE player that gets substantial playing time. He mentioned Paulus, Scheyer, Zoubek, and Singler specifically by name.

I sat there dumbfounded trying to reconcile how we held FSU to 14 first half points (and 28 for GT) despite our lack of lateral quickness. I guess Nolan and G are so good they cover for the other three starters........


I almost made the same comments after I watched that. Scheyer and Singler are both GREAT defenders. Zoubek doesn't need lateral quickness when he's standing in the paint. There's a reason why Lavin was fired from UCLA... he has no idea what he's talking about. We need more Bob Knights and other people that actually know what they are talking about.

Dukerati
01-14-2009, 10:24 PM
We cut off the lane better than any other team in the country so imagine my surprise at the halftime show comment by Lavin when he talked about how we were not "elite" defensively because Scheyer, Singer, et al were susceptible to the dribble drive. It'd be nice if he watched some tape of us before commenting... we're only on national TV every game.

As for negatives, I counted at least three times when Scheyer passed up an open shot. We are too limited offensively right now for him to do this and I hope he gets more assertive. In addition, I'd like our point guards to push the ball up the floor more. I think both Paulus and Nolan were too content to run our halfcourt sets when we were clearly struggling offensively. One of the alleged advantages to our style of pressure defense is the creation of turnovers that in turn lead to easy transition points. Even with all the suffocating defense we played, where were the easy buckets?

DukeCO2009
01-14-2009, 10:24 PM
Did anyone catch the halftime comments during the game tonight?

Basically, the topic of conversation was, "Things that will hold Duke back from being a FF team this year."

Jimmy Dykes mentioned our interior play and rebounding troubles against bigger frontlines like WF and UNC.

Then, out of nowhere, Steve Lavin comments how we have significant problems with perimeter defense because of a lack of lateral quickness from..........yes, you guessed it, every WHITE player that gets substantial playing time. He mentioned Paulus, Scheyer, Zoubek, and Singler specifically by name.

I sat there dumbfounded trying to reconcile how we held FSU to 14 first half points (and 28 for GT) despite our lack of lateral quickness. I guess Nolan and G are so good they cover for the other three starters........

I noticed the same thing. Pretty ridiculous, but I certainly don't mind flying under the radar.

dukemsu
01-14-2009, 10:25 PM
I feel like announcers and analysts are reading off an old script when it comes to us this year. I'm not saying we're above criticism, but they tend to criticize things we are doing well (like stopping dribble penetration) and are lauding things we aren't doing so well ("they'll kill you with the 3 ball"). For a team that's currently ranked #2 in the country, I don't think these guys are doing enough homework on us. It's a strange situation of still having a big spotlight yet few TV media folks seem to be paying attention to who we are and what we do well, and not so well.

The stuff about Scheyer not having lateral quickness is asinine, and Lavin should know better. Jon is probably our best perimeter defender and is one of the better ones I have seen anywhere this season.

A lot of the national folks are looking at Duke's record, which is, as usual, fantastic. They are combining the last few years of relative disappointment in March with the relative lack of star power, and thinking that Duke is nothing more than a scrappy but vulnerable team.

I say that is nonsense. No one's talking about the improved rebounding, the lockdown D, etc. Fine with me. Let Duke fly under the radar for once. Show 'em in March.

dukemsu

jv001
01-14-2009, 10:33 PM
Did anyone catch the halftime comments during the game tonight?

Basically, the topic of conversation was, "Things that will hold Duke back from being a FF team this year."

Jimmy Dykes mentioned our interior play and rebounding troubles against bigger frontlines like WF and UNC.

Then, out of nowhere, Steve Lavin comments how we have significant problems with perimeter defense because of a lack of lateral quickness from..........yes, you guessed it, every WHITE player that gets substantial playing time. He mentioned Paulus, Scheyer, Zoubek, and Singler specifically by name.

I sat there dumbfounded trying to reconcile how we held FSU to 14 first half points (and 28 for GT) despite our lack of lateral quickness. I guess Nolan and G are so good they cover for the other three starters........

Right now I would say our offense is our weakness and not our defense. We are one of the 2 or 3 leading defenses in the country. However our offense is not clicking like it should. It seems we have way too much dribbling and standing around. These are problems that Coach K will iron out b4 long. Go Duke!

sagegrouse
01-14-2009, 10:35 PM
I thought the first half rotation was instructive. Greg got a lot of playing time and so did Marty (6 minutes is really good).

I conclude that K is looking for some offensive spark and encouraging Greg and Marty, among others, to show something.

Good game, overall. I thought our offense was actually pretty good the last ten minutes or so. The defense was really good throughout.

sagegrouse

DukeVol
01-14-2009, 10:37 PM
I certainly focus on Scheyer and Singler's defensive movements enough to know that they are excellent defenders, but what bothered me the most about Lavin's comments was that he only mentioned white Duke players and the fact that I cannot remember commentators openly questioning the "lateral quickness" of black players (Duke's or other teams').

I see tons of lazy, not-fundamentally-sound perimeter defenders when I watch other teams, but because they don't play for Duke and because they are not white, they don't get criticized for a lack of "lateral quickness". It's just really weird.....

Like the constant difference between an "athlete" and a "gamer"......whatever.

yancem
01-14-2009, 10:51 PM
Duke shot 39% from the field, 33% from 3, and 59% from the FT line...and won by 14pts on the road. You gotta love this team. They're like the Pittsburg Steelers of college basketball.


Great analogy but I'm thinking more Ravens - where the defense is also the offense.

You can also draw use the Pittsburgh Penguins as another analogy. At one point Crosby and Malkin were 1-2 in scoring in the nhl yet the Penguins have struggled offensively all season. Duke has 3 really good scorers in Singler, Scheyer and Henderson but the team struggles on offense.

As for the game, I think part of the difficulty for Duke (and maybe GT) tonight was that the officiating was horribly inconsistent. There were a lot of bumping and reaching that went unnoticed and then there was a lot of ghost fouls were I wasn't even sure there was contact. That has to make things difficult for players.

Singler is great but I really wish he would build his game from the inside out instead of the other way around. Much of the first half he stood out on the perimeter and launched shots that weren't falling. In the second half he stayed closer to the basket and got a few offensive rebounds and stick backs. He also drove effectively and drew a few fouls. Then he moved out to the perimeter and the outside shots started falling. Also, what happened to the notion of him not playing the 5 much this year. There were quite a few stretches when both Zoubek and Thomas were on the bench.

All in all a good win, but I can't seem to get a handle on how good this team is. Their defense is exceptional but the offense is red hot one moment and non existent the next. I guess when your two weakest positions are the point and the center, that's to be expected. It will be interesting to see how the offense progresses through the season. GTown should be another good test to help define whether Duke is simply good or has what it takes to be great.

southgater
01-14-2009, 11:03 PM
I'm pretty sure I noted one defensive set where we played a 1-3-1 trap - came in the middle of the second half and seemed to take GT by surprise. They ended up turning it over on a bad pass out of bounds. Did anyone else notice this or was I hallucinating? I haven't noticed this in our previous games - is K just testing something new out?

chrisheery
01-14-2009, 11:04 PM
There were only a few things (albeit important things) that kept this from being a blowout.

1. Missing easy shots. Hey, it happens. However, if a few of those open shots fall early, other things open up. That said, teams will always have off nights shooting and need to be able to compensate. Which brings me to . . .

2. Pass the ball to Zoubek inside every now and then. I know he isn't a great scorer, but just making his man commit to him opens up the floor for everyone else. Duke plays its best when there is an entry pass followed by kick out or cut at least every 3rd or 4th time down the floor. It just brings balance. Recently, it seems that, even when Zoub is open, we just aren't getting the ball inside to him. Just seems like it should be a point of emphasis. Also, it would help his confidence and focus to be more involved in the offense.

3. Free throws. I mean, really. They looked so tired shooting free throws. Either the guys need more rest during games or they are going to have to get used to shooting free throws exhuasted. I vote for more frequent early subbing for Kyle especially. He plays all out all the time and needs to sit to save some energy for the stretch run.

But, Duke won this game pretty easily despite all of these things not being done. These are all correctable issues and will make this team a legit final four team. I disagree that we would lose badly playing like this against a really good team. We might lose due to poor offensive production, but badly? This team won this game, on the road, by 16 against a big team that should have its greatest advantage against what is called our greatest weakness, rebounding. I think it would be worthwhile to realize how positive this game is in many ways. I'll bet anything Coach K was worried about this game more than many on this board seem to have been. And, I'd also bet he's overjoyed with the outcome.

By the way, I'm glad our shooting slump and poor ball movement is happening early this year instead (hopefully) of in the tournament like the last two years.

RepoMan
01-14-2009, 11:07 PM
Great defensive effort. And, from the post-game comments, you can see that the team has bought into this identity.

On the offensive end, I swear it seems like, for large chunks of the game, we have one guy hold the ball up top, with the other guys making little movement, followed by the ballhandler looking to create his own shot. Little movement off the ball and minimal passing. I am not a tactician though.

Jumbo, what do you think is going on with the offense? I don't think the answer is simply that the other team is playing good defense. Who so little passing and movement do you think?

sagegrouse
01-14-2009, 11:11 PM
Did it seem like there were as many Duke fans at the game as GT fans?

Any comments from eyewitnesses?

sagegrouse

91devil
01-14-2009, 11:16 PM
We only had eight turnovers in this game (including the three second, 'five-second' out of bounds turnover - the quickest five seconds in history). We didn't shoot well but didn't make silly mistakes that led to easy baskets by an inferior team.

chrisheery
01-14-2009, 11:19 PM
On the offensive end, I swear it seems like, for large chunks of the game, we have one guy hold the ball up top, with the other guys making little movement, followed by the ballhandler looking to create his own shot. Little movement off the ball and minimal passing. I am not a tactician though.


I'd like to add one more to my above list and it is this point. Its an excellent point.

However, doesn't it seem like our cutters get bumped so much that we can't make good cuts or catch the passes delivered though? I liked Bilas' comment about the physical nature of college basketball. It seems almost out of control at this point. Too many fouls off the ball. Makes the game look like this game. Offense looks awful because there are fouls on every play.

gep
01-14-2009, 11:20 PM
3. Free throws. I mean, really. They looked so tired shooting free throws. Either the guys need more rest during games or they are going to have to get used to shooting free throws exhuasted. I vote for more frequent early subbing for Kyle especially. He plays all out all the time and needs to sit to save some energy for the stretch run.


I was also going to mention the FT's. 59% in this game. What happened to the 80%+ earlier in the season. I didn't see the game yet (I've got it recorded) but the comment on the guys looking "tired"... it's only mid-Jan. What happens in Feb and especially in March. Is this "wearing out" starting earlier? Or just the physical road games... I hope the home games will help in this regard.:rolleyes:

sagegrouse
01-14-2009, 11:25 PM
I'm pretty sure I noted one defensive set where we played a 1-3-1 trap - came in the middle of the second half and seemed to take GT by surprise. They ended up turning it over on a bad pass out of bounds. Did anyone else notice this or was I hallucinating? I haven't noticed this in our previous games - is K just testing something new out?

Yes, it was a 1-3-1 zone; it did result in a turnover; and I was surprised the heavens did not open and rain fire on the Alexander Memorial Coliseum.

sagegrouse

dukelifer
01-14-2009, 11:29 PM
This team is definitely not a finished product and in some ways that is good. Duke is winning and not playing very well on the offensive end of the floor. G is emerging as a consistent 16-20 ppg scorer and seems to be able to play the whole game without getting into foul trouble. Zoubek is showing the ability to rebound in traffic. Singler seems to do everything- maybe too much - and still things are not clicking on 0. Duke has to up the assist numbers and let Singler operate down low a bit more- he is just much better around the hoop than anyone else on the team. The D is relentless and that has kept Duke in games. But Duke will not turn over elite guards and teams like they did tonight (Tech is just an awful ball handling team) and then the O will need to be much better. But you still need to win the games and Duke is doing that- so it is hard to complain about the results.

I think the team will get better. Paulus showed life tonight and why he can be an effective part of the team. Unfortunately, Duke is getting little from the Center position of late- but FSU and Tech are two HUGE teams. Still Singler did not get a lot of help rebounding tonight and played a ton. That is a bit of a concern. I liked the few flashes from Marty. Is it just me but I think he should do nothing but drive to the hoop. It seems that is where he is most effective. This team will get it. As noted, you want to peak in March.

chrisheery
01-14-2009, 11:41 PM
It does seem that Zoubek's numbers were hurt because he doesn't catch every ball that is near him (which is pretty frustrating sometimes), BUT if there were assists for rebounds, he would have had about 10. Singler got a few of them, G got a few, and others as well. Granted, it would be nice to see him grab these boards, but sometimes taking up the space that allows other to get rebounds is good enough to help your team win.

buzz
01-14-2009, 11:43 PM
Several positives tonight, most notably the defense and the continued emergence of Henderson. I also love how Singler creates so many problems for other teams. He's just a beast out there.

My biggest concern was the tentative offensive play of Nolan. We need him to aggressively drive to the basket on a consistent basis to keep teams honest. He's got the speed and talent and should be dropping 10-12 per night.

Methinks it's mainly a case of developing a killer instinct in the kid. We've all seen it happen in short bursts. When it does, his game elevates big-time, and it's a beautiful thing. Add to that a 15 pt, 10 reb contribution from the two-headed monster, and you've got yourself a Final Four team.

geraldsneighbor
01-14-2009, 11:45 PM
I certainly focus on Scheyer and Singler's defensive movements enough to know that they are excellent defenders, but what bothered me the most about Lavin's comments was that he only mentioned white Duke players and the fact that I cannot remember commentators openly questioning the "lateral quickness" of black players (Duke's or other teams').

I see tons of lazy, not-fundamentally-sound perimeter defenders when I watch other teams, but because they don't play for Duke and because they are not white, they don't get criticized for a lack of "lateral quickness". It's just really weird.....

Like the constant difference between an "athlete" and a "gamer"......whatever.



Amen. We start a guy who is 7-1 and another kid named Kyle Singler who isn't bad but we have no size...

elvis14
01-14-2009, 11:48 PM
I'll add a few thoughts


First and foremost, I'm really happy to get another ACC road win
Our defense played really well again
Dave McClure is our best defender, he was sharing jerseys with some of the GT players tonight and they were just at a loss for what to do about it. The blocked shot was sweet as well.
I like the fact that G is looking for his shot more and the way they ran some clear outs for him
I would really like to see more flow in our offense. Like someone else mentioned, it seemed that we spent a lot of time dribbling the ball up top with guys standing around.
I would really like to see us push the ball more, a lot more. It's obvious that the players are being coached to get it across the time line pull it up top and setup a 1/2 court offense. What a waste of Nolan's quickness, Jon's passing game, and G's athleticism ! I feel like we need to be pushing the ball more and being more aggressive early in the shot clock. Push it and look for easy baskets. If it isn't there back it out and start the 1/2 court set. I feel like we are letting defenses get the upper hand by giving them time to setup in a zone or mark up in a man. If get numbers....attack!
As much as I'm loving McClure's defense, I'd like to see him do more on the offensive end. I'm not saying he needs to take 10 shots a game but right now he is just getting the ball and looking to get rid of it. Teams know this and there are times where he has an open lane to the hoop or lots of room to dribble into the paint for a short jumper or get in the paint and draw and dish. There easy stuff for him right now, attack!
Jon seems to have dropped off a bit as G has picked it up. I'm not worried, but I'll point out that it's going to be a good thing when the big 3 of K,J,G get it going.
I hope Nolans knee is OK. Seemed really odd for him to get limited minutes although his offense seems to be on hold right now. His D was great when he was in the game.
It was nice to see Marty get some burn and play OK tonight. As much as I've supported him in the past, before tonight he's really looked lost this season. I like it when he takes the ball to the hoop and doesn't just chuck 3's
I really want to beat Georgetown on Saturday. Lots of ACC pride here!

BTW, what a great NBA game following duke - GT. Lakers lose on a bad call in the end but it was a really good game.

norduck
01-14-2009, 11:49 PM
But Miles isn't a low-post scorer, either. His skills in that area are really raw. If he's going to earn minutes, it will be with defense and rebounding. Right now, I think we're getting enough of that from Zoubs, LT and McClure (in addition to Singler, obviously). It's nice to think that he's another potential option down the line, though.

You might want to listen to K's post game comments. His main gripe was 0 pts from the center position in the 1st half, particularly naming Z and T. Not happy that Singler was doing all the inside work.

tbyers11
01-14-2009, 11:52 PM
I was also going to mention the FT's. 59% in this game. What happened to the 80%+ earlier in the season. I didn't see the game yet (I've got it recorded) but the comment on the guys looking "tired"... it's only mid-Jan. What happens in Feb and especially in March. Is this "wearing out" starting earlier? Or just the physical road games... I hope the home games will help in this regard.:rolleyes:

I don't think being tired had anything to with the FTs unless Jon and Kyle were tired midway through the first half. Both of Jon's misses were well before the last 8 minutes. Kyle made one of 2 nearly every time he went to the line and usually missed by hitting the front of the rim both early and late. Dave missed 2 late but he is not a great FT shooter. Jon (4-4), Gerald (2-2) and Nolan (2-2) made all their FTs in the last 6-7 minutes of the game

Kyle going 5 for 11 instead of 8 for 11 was the reason we had a subpar FT night instead of an average night

Clipsfan
01-14-2009, 11:52 PM
It does seem that Zoubek's numbers were hurt because he doesn't catch every ball that is near him (which is pretty frustrating sometimes), BUT if there were assists for rebounds, he would have had about 10. Singler got a few of them, G got a few, and others as well. Granted, it would be nice to see him grab these boards, but sometimes taking up the space that allows other to get rebounds is good enough to help your team win.

Today, many of those caroms went to Duke players, but unfortunately his hands aren't all that great. He is still doing a much better job out there.

chrisheery
01-14-2009, 11:52 PM
You might want to listen to K's post game comments. His main gripe was 0 pts from the center position in the 1st half, particularly naming Z and T. Not happy that Singler was doing all the inside work.

How can Zoubek score down low if no one ever throws him the ball? I just don't see how it is all his fault. Lance, though, got a few chances and blew them.

calltheobvious
01-15-2009, 12:18 AM
How can Zoubek score down low if no one ever throws him the ball? I just don't see how it is all his fault. Lance, though, got a few chances and blew them.

Zoubek acquired solid post position a few times early, but after one really egregious failure by G to deliver him the ball, it looked to me like he got frustrated and lost all aggressiveness on that end. In fact, there were many, many possessions on which he made zero effort to even consider a move for the ball, instead focusing all of his attention on screening.

Though I don't have the focus to make it through most of his treatises, I think Greybeard has had some interesting thoughts on why Zoubek isn't getting more touches. Clearly his teammates don't have a high level of comfort delivering the ball to him. The question is whether this is because of a lack of ability to enter the post generally, or simply a lack of faith in Zoubek's ability to receive and make good decisions with the ball.

My gut says it's the latter, and I don't think it's entirely fair given the growth Zoubek has shown this season. I'm not defending his pouting if that was what was going on with tonight, but you have to show the big fella a little love when he's established dominant position. Beats hell out of thirty seconds of standing and dribbling followed by a highly contested jumper.

greybeard
01-15-2009, 01:13 AM
Zoubek acquired solid post position a few times early, but after one really egregious failure by G to deliver him the ball, it looked to me like he got frustrated and lost all aggressiveness on that end. In fact, there were many, many possessions on which he made zero effort to even consider a move for the ball, instead focusing all of his attention on screening.

Though I don't have the focus to make it through most of his treatises, I think Greybeard has had some interesting thoughts on why Zoubek isn't getting more touches. Clearly his teammates don't have a high level of comfort delivering the ball to him. The question is whether this is because of a lack of ability to enter the post generally, or simply a lack of faith in Zoubek's ability to receive and make good decisions with the ball.

My gut says it's the latter, and I don't think it's entirely fair given the growth Zoubek has shown this season. I'm not defending his pouting if that was what was going on with tonight, but you have to show the big fella a little love when he's established dominant position. Beats hell out of thirty seconds of standing and dribbling followed by a highly contested jumper.

I think it is a combination of the two, but it hardly matters.

The skill set in basketball is not that complicated, and if you provide the ball early and in rhythm to inside people, they tend to deliver. I played this game for a lot of years with people of varying skill levels. If guys showed up to play, they usually had something to offer. My experience, you got it to them as if they could catch and finish and they delivered. Other people would wait, deliver it after the defense was all over these guys, and create what they feared in the first place.

There is a terrific section in Hoop Dreams in which Bill Cartright explained what distinguished the Bulls from other teams. He said that, on other teams, when a guy like Meyers (a great defender who was known as a poor shooter) was left free, other teams would not get such a olayer the ball; didn't want himn to shoot it. The Bulls always would and expect him to shoot. And, if he missed, and was left open again, he'd get it again, and he'd make it, in part because the team believed in him and walked the talk. That, he said, was what distinguished the Bulls from other teams.

The Zen Master preached this often and repeatedly. He was fond of repeating Kipling's little couplet, and tried to resurrect it after the Lakers showed some life at the beginning of the finals:

"Now this is the law of the jungle, as old and true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
The strength of the pack is in the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is in the pack."

It worked for the Bulls. Just ask Cartwright. And you guys thought it was all MJ!

Jumbo
01-15-2009, 01:13 AM
You might want to listen to K's post game comments. His main gripe was 0 pts from the center position in the 1st half, particularly naming Z and T. Not happy that Singler was doing all the inside work.

I never said that Zoubek or Thomas gave us enough scoring. I said Plumlee isn't capable of being a low-post scorer right now, either. I said Zoubek and Thomas were giving us enough D and rebounding, not scoring.

JDev
01-15-2009, 01:18 AM
There is a lot tp like about this Duke team. They play hard and they play outstanding defense, and that will keep you in the game the vast majority of the time. Right now they are very good. If they are going to turn the corner and become a great team they have to shoot the ball better. I just have to think that that is going to happen and the percentage is going to go up. They play with four capable shooters on the floor most of the time. I am holding out hope that the shooting will come around. GT had been shooting as bad as anyone in the country prior to tonight, and they actually shot the ball pretty well against a great defense. A guy that was literally 0-21 on the year hit all of his threes! Duke's shooting will come around.

gep
01-15-2009, 01:34 AM
I don't think being tired had anything to with the FTs unless Jon and Kyle were tired midway through the first half. Both of Jon's misses were well before the last 8 minutes. Kyle made one of 2 nearly every time he went to the line and usually missed by hitting the front of the rim both early and late. Dave missed 2 late but he is not a great FT shooter. Jon (4-4), Gerald (2-2) and Nolan (2-2) made all their FTs in the last 6-7 minutes of the game

Kyle going 5 for 11 instead of 8 for 11 was the reason we had a subpar FT night instead of an average night

Thanks... I only looked at the box score totals... I guess Kyle's 5 for 11 was a big factor in the total FT percentage:)

TwoDukeTattoos
01-15-2009, 05:44 AM
At some point our offense is going to have to find some consistency. We have hit significant scoring droughts during each of our last four games. At times, our spread offense seems to have no identity. Our lack of a low-post presence last night was as obvious as a neon road sign declaring the same.

Thank goodness for stellar D, and thank goodness for Kyle - the 4 in 1 player. Although, Kyle has looked exhausted the past two games. Not a good sign in January.

Most folks won't agree with my post because they will deem it pessimistic. I'm just keeping it real.

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 07:27 AM
Good game, although messy of course; it is AMAZING how big and strong some of these teams we play are, from their top starter to their deep bench guy. They definitely give us trouble. I liked, however, that we steadily built up our lead and kept it.

A rougher game for Brian. He is going to have troubles, I think, against the bigger, faster, more physical centers when the refs are getting on him.

I was a bit... lets say unnerved at two comments Jay made last night. He made one about Singler getting tired, and one about developing our bigs from the bench (with an emphasis on developing.) This just makes me nervous because I feel like many average fans have been saying the same thing for a while (to the point of it being cliche)... but still, I do hope that Kyle doesn't begin to fade, and I really, truly believe that Miles should be getting a few minutes a game, both to keep Zoubek a bit more out of foul trouble and also so he can develop a feel for actual game-time and develop some confidence, while we can see what he CAN contribute. As a former Duke athlete myself, I can say that big-time competition is often where I learned the most about myself and my teammates, and people often stepped up in those situations who you would never expect to. We are going to need someone bigger than Lance and David at some point important this year, as Zoubek will get in foul trouble, and I wish that we would play Miles enough to at least feel comfortable with him in there.

TwoDukeTattoos
01-15-2009, 08:04 AM
As much as I hate to say it, this team is starting to look eerily similar to last year's team. In the off season many folks thought we'd finally get much needed help in the post/scoring/rebounding by bringing in Czyz and Plumlee. But neither has developed enough to receive any meaningful playing time. So, basically this year's team basically a DeMarcus-less version of last year's team.

True, Zoubs is improved but he isn't quite consistent and he will probably never be a legit power down low, at least not this year. Singler is stronger but he's already beginning to fall into the same trap as last year: too many minutes and too much time on the low block. And Lance is stronger and improved, but he isn't wowing anyone on a consistent basis.

In a word, we're better. But not by much. At least not yet.

Saratoga2
01-15-2009, 08:52 AM
A lot to like about the game. We went into a hostile environment against a team with several talented bigs and came away with a win. Our guys exploited their weaknesses with turnovers by applying tough man to man defensive and they also shot themselves out of the game at the foul line. Our first 5 are outstanding defenders who communicate. I also add McClure into that mix as well. Although undersized, he does very well guarding most positions and rebounding.

My man of the match was Singler. I thought he played outstanding defense, boxed out well and got crucial rebounds. He also was enough of an offensive threat from all areas of the floor to make it hard for GT to find anyone to guard him effectively.
stitu
Henderson was also excellent on defense and he is amazing rebounding the ball when you consider he is probably slightly less than 6'4". His game is maturing this year and he too can generate offense from any spot on the floor. His ball handling is a little loose but overall he is playing so well.

Scheyer played well on defensive and was asked to pick up some of the ball handling. I think is is still our best there. He really looked off shooting the ball and didn't seem to find his shot until close to the end but he still found ways to score. Fourteen for the night was a surprise based on his start.

I love Smith's defense. When he was guarding the ball handler they could not really initiate the offense. Smith needs to look more for his shot and also to slash, since he has shown some talent scoring the ball. When Paulus substitutes for him the game changes and we lose quite a bit on defense.

Zoubek was also impressive to me. While he is a little slow at times, his size seems to intimidate others trying to score. I also like his ability to handle the ball and he doesn't get flustered when being doubled but instead makes a good pass.

It was good to see Paulus come in and make a contribution at a critical time in the early stages. The basket seemed to have a lid on it until he came in. I still was unhappy with his judgement when he fouled with about 5 seconds left when he man had his back to the basket. He also made mistakes in ball handling that a sr. guard should not be making. Maybe the scoring will boost his confidence going forward.

Thomas's play was not up to a standard that I would expect. He seems to be caught up with the idea of being super aggressive and in my view needs to think about what he is doing more than what the results indicate he is doing. He is a good athlete and moves well, so I think he could just change his style a little and be much better. Controlled aggression rather than what appears to be out of control aggression.

At this stage, I would say we are a very good team, but not very deep. We are playing 8, but two of those are not having the best of games.

Looking forward to Georgetown.

Channing
01-15-2009, 09:19 AM
Did it seem like there were as many Duke fans at the game as GT fans?

Any comments from eyewitnesses?

sagegrouse

There were a ton of Duke fans there. I was surrounded by Duke fans, and I bought my tickets offline. It also seemed like their student section was tiny, maybe even smaller than Cameron.

This was my first time at the thriller dome - and I think its fair to say that is an inaccurate nickname. It was quiet most of the games and the students were lethargic at best. AND, the devil rides the surfboard much better than the Yellowjacket.

RepoMan
01-15-2009, 09:26 AM
So, basically this year's team basically a DeMarcus-less version of last year's team.
. . .
In a word, we're better. But not by much. At least not yet.


I really disagree with this post. Last year, Nolan was a freshman, not ready to start, and Greg was running the point. As a result, we were hampered defensively. In addition, because Zoubek was essentially out with injury, Singler (another freshman) had to play the 5. This year, Z and Lance give inside presense, Kyle moves to a better matchup defensively. Plus, Nolan starts, and defense is much improved. So, I think we are much better, not even considering the new personnel. With respect to Plumlee and Williams, regardless of the minutes they get in a particular game, their presence on the team is significant. Take last night, Z and Lance get in foul trouble and MccLure comes in. We still have Plumlee available if needed. It simply allows everyone to play with more tenacity because we don't face the apocolypse if we get into foul trouble.

_Gary
01-15-2009, 09:26 AM
Well, if Jay can use the dreaded "T" word on the air then I guess I can say it here as well. And God knows I don't want to believe it - but darned if I still don't have those nagging concerns about our guys getting worn out. Dang it! Dang it! Dang it! A part of the problem is that Greg simply hasn't been himself all year. If he were playing up to par and giving the team 20 or so strong minutes each and every game it would change the entire rotation and every one would be fresher, IMHO. But with him struggling so much we are forced to play our starting wings more than we really should, but again that's just my opinion.

The bigs are a problem too - just where Coach K said. We aren't getting the inside scoring from anyone but Kyle. And that just can't happen or the guy is flat out going to get tired. He can't be banging night in and night out like he's done the last couple of games and not get worn down. It just isn't fair to ask him to do that and then to expect him to be Superman down the stretch. Fatigue makes cowards of us all.

Somehow we've got to see Greg round back into form and we need to see Z & T provide true inside scoring if we are going to be contending for a title in March. I'm convinced that the path we are on right now is not that far off from the one I've seen the last several years. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that sees that. What to do about it is another discussion entirely. Do we play guys like Miles, Elliot and even Marty a little in each game? Or do we just hope that the primary 8 that we are playing now all contribute meaningfully at their individual positions? Don't know. But I do know that Kyle and some of the others are looking gassed to me at times.

Just my two cents.

Go Duke!!!

77devil
01-15-2009, 09:27 AM
I never said that Zoubek or Thomas gave us enough scoring. I said Plumlee isn't capable of being a low-post scorer right now, either. I said Zoubek and Thomas were giving us enough D and rebounding, not scoring.

It is debatable whether or not Zoub and Thomas are giving us enough D and rebounding. They certainly didn't last night, and Kyle's overall minutes and minutes in the 5 spot are increasing.

Kyle's avg. minutes in non ACC games were less than 29 per while his avg. minutes in ACC action are 36, although obviously the non conferance average is favorably impacted by some of the cupcakes.

CameronBornAndBred
01-15-2009, 09:39 AM
I loved seeing some of the lineups out there, including extended minutes for Marty in the first half. This is the first year in a long time that I can remember K being so wide open this deep in the season. At any time during the game you can look on the court and see a different basketball team. It's great that we have that option and even better that K is using it. Only time will tell if he actually keeps it up, but for now it's fun.

whereinthehellami
01-15-2009, 09:45 AM
Good win for Duke. Gotta like Singler and Henderson stepping up when needed. Also gotta like winning with the off shooting nights from Scheyer and Singler.

That said Singler played 37 mintues and Henderson 34 minutes. Singler spent way too much time down low taking a beating. Its up to the coaches to rest this guy because he goes all out and sacifices his body without regard(this is going to add up come end of the year).

Also of concern is the assists to TO ratio which was at 11:9 last night. Smith is struggling at PG and is not realy setting players up to score. Alot of the wide open looks that guys are scoring on are coming from passes from the other positions (not pg). I'm not sure Duke can fix this and will be an issue that the top teams will be able to capitalize on. Duke has to work hard for every shot and score. With Smith struggling as a PG and distributor, I'd like to see him shift some focus and try to get to the bucket more. He is very effective at getting into the lane and to the rim.

jpfrizzle
01-15-2009, 09:55 AM
I just learned before the game, Duke has the 2nd hardest schedule for the 2008-2009 season leading up to March. That alone tells me that these Blue Devils are in it to win it, no matter what the circumstances of that night's game.
However, I feel like that puts a target on our backs; We've seen hostile territory before and came out on top.
Whatever they are doing to win, I want them to keep it up, cuz its working. Even though sometimes it looks sloppy, I forgive them. They are all great players in there own right.

I also want to add that I liked Pocius's drive to the basket for 2 points. At first I was saying to the guys, "who was that.. did you see that?" I mean, he came outta nowhere. Then I saw #5, Pocius! man, I wish he could do more plays like that.

All in all

Go DUKE ! ! ! !

Kedsy
01-15-2009, 09:57 AM
As much as I hate to say it, this team is starting to look eerily similar to last year's team. In the off season many folks thought we'd finally get much needed help in the post/scoring/rebounding by bringing in Czyz and Plumlee. But neither has developed enough to receive any meaningful playing time. So, basically this year's team basically a DeMarcus-less version of last year's team.

True, Zoubs is improved but he isn't quite consistent and he will probably never be a legit power down low, at least not this year. Singler is stronger but he's already beginning to fall into the same trap as last year: too many minutes and too much time on the low block. And Lance is stronger and improved, but he isn't wowing anyone on a consistent basis.

In a word, we're better. But not by much. At least not yet.

Well, the faces may look similar, but I don't think this year's team looks anything like last year's team. Last year's team was a D'Antoni-style run-and-shoot team and this year's team's identity is all about defense. The styles of play are completely dissimilar. Singler, Thomas, Zoubek, and Smith all look entirely different on the court than they did last year. Personally, I think we're much better, but if you don't think so, that's a valid opinion. However, I completely disagree that this year's team is a "DeMarcus-less version of last year's team."

roywhite
01-15-2009, 09:58 AM
An indication of how effective our defense was:

Both Lawal and Aminu looked good early---long, athletic inside players who looked to score around the basket. Lawal ended up with 6 points and Aminu 8 points. After the first 10 minutes, they scored almost nothing.

In fact, if not for some late 3's by Clinch and Miller, the Jackets had very little offense at all in the last 30 minutes of the game. Duke's on the ball defense and help was excellent.

77devil
01-15-2009, 10:03 AM
I loved seeing some of the lineups out there, including extended minutes for Marty in the first half. This is the first year in a long time that I can remember K being so wide open this deep in the season. At any time during the game you can look on the court and see a different basketball team. It's great that we have that option and even better that K is using it. Only time will tell if he actually keeps it up, but for now it's fun.

I haven't checked the prior year stats but I don't see a big difference. I believe Marty was put in because no one was effective on O in the first half.

It is basically an 8 man rotation now instead of 7, and last year I would guess the minutes were more evenly distributed among 9 players, including DeMarc and Taylor King, at this stage of the season.

RainingThrees
01-15-2009, 10:04 AM
Anybody else notice that G is shooing .431 from 3 this year. Compare that to last year when he shot .317. No one else is above 40% and the closest is Jon at .381. Good job G!!

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 10:12 AM
I also want to add that I liked Pocius's drive to the basket for 2 points. At first I was saying to the guys, "who was that.. did you see that?" I mean, he came outta nowhere. Then I saw #5, Pocius! man, I wish he could do more plays like that.
Go DUKE ! ! ! !

It was really nice to see particularly because Marty has really fallen into this trap of jacking of 3s. He is a very adept slasher, and I think he could work on getting towards the hoop more.

Kedsy
01-15-2009, 10:18 AM
It is debatable whether or not Zoub and Thomas are giving us enough D and rebounding. They certainly didn't last night, and Kyle's overall minutes and minutes in the 5 spot are increasing.

Kyle's avg. minutes in non ACC games were less than 29 per while his avg. minutes in ACC action are 36, although obviously the non conferance average is favorably impacted by some of the cupcakes.

The past two games involved teams with huge front lines who in the past few years would have dominated Duke inside but this year did not. In fact, we outrebounded Tech, and if you think that was only because of Kyle you weren't watching the game closely enough. Without Brian and Lance in there, keeping their men off the boards and fighting for the ball, the Tech bigs could have much more easily neutralized Singler's rebounding attempts. Plus, as someone previously noted, Brian tipped a lot of loose rebounds which were finally caught by Kyle and others. IMO, the fact that Brian could stay on the court for so long against Tech is a very big deal, and makes this year's team much more formidable than in recent times.

As for the minutes, while it's possible that playing 36 minutes could make a player tired at the end of that particular game, the idea that 36 minutes instead of 29 will have a lasting effect doesn't make any sense. I have expressed this opinion many times in past threads and don't really want to re-hash it here, but people are making way too much out of playing time.

Having said that, I believe having to play out of position and guard bigger players on a consistent basis can wear a player down, and Kyle did a lot of that last night. The good news is there aren't that many teams as big as Florida State and Georgia Tech (although Wake Forest is one of them, and Clemson is pretty big, and people talk about UNC's size, although they're significantly smaller than those other teams).

jpfrizzle
01-15-2009, 10:26 AM
It was really nice to see particularly because Marty has really fallen into this trap of jacking of 3s. He is a very adept slasher, and I think he could work on getting towards the hoop more.

Oh yeah, no doubt Pocius is a great 3 thrower when he gets on a roll. I was just pointing out that when he drives to basket, I've noticed, its powerful drives to basket. Mosdef he should work on that.

SupaDave
01-15-2009, 10:29 AM
This was my first time at the thriller dome - and I think its fair to say that is an inaccurate nickname. It was quiet most of the games and the students were lethargic at best. AND, the devil rides the surfboard much better than the Yellowjacket.

It just not in our nature at Tech. It's weird. If you think UNC is wine and cheese then you would think that we brought our books to the game at Tech.

Once there was a free Ludacris concert on campus - so I went. Ludacris is generally pretty amped up but the energy from the crowd just wasn't there. I left feeling as if I had somehow let Luda down.

Oh and there's a reason for the small student section - Alumni DOMINATE floor seating (same for football games)...

SupaDave
01-15-2009, 10:36 AM
Having said that, I believe having to play out of position and guard bigger players on a consistent basis can wear a player down, and Kyle did a lot of that last night. The good news is there aren't that many teams as big as Florida State and Georgia Tech (although Wake Forest is one of them, and Clemson is pretty big, and people talk about UNC's size, although they're significantly smaller than those other teams).

Too funny. Well don't forget Virgina and Virginia Tech as other teams with some nice size...

_Gary
01-15-2009, 10:46 AM
As for the minutes, while it's possible that playing 36 minutes could make a player tired at the end of that particular game, the idea that 36 minutes instead of 29 will have a lasting effect doesn't make any sense. I have expressed this opinion many times in past threads and don't really want to re-hash it here, but people are making way too much out of playing time.

Just for clarification, when I personally talk about minutes per game I'm not only thinking of the physical toll, but the heavy mental grind as well. Playing most or all of a second half in game after game, especially if those games are close, can definitely wear a person down. It's never been just about minutes as they relate to physical fatigue, but also about 2nd half minutes that relate to mental fatigue. Add to that someone getting banged on a lot by other low post players and you do have a recipe for exhaustion. Hope that clarifies things a bit more.

BlueDevilBaby
01-15-2009, 10:49 AM
2. Pass the ball to Zoubek inside every now and then. I know he isn't a great scorer, but just making his man commit to him opens up the floor for everyone else. Duke plays its best when there is an entry pass followed by kick out or cut at least every 3rd or 4th time down the floor. It just brings balance. Recently, it seems that, even when Zoub is open, we just aren't getting the ball inside to him. Just seems like it should be a point of emphasis. Also, it would help his confidence and focus to be more involved in the offense.

I agree with your point in getting the ball to the middle. They were getting the ball to Zoubek or Thomas in the key much more during the first several games. Ball movement/reversal was much better during those games than it has been for the last two - lot of perimeter play and dribbling.

Just glad Duke won.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-15-2009, 10:50 AM
1) First off, I think this is a GREAT win. Not a pretty or effective offensive performance but the D was superb and we made enough scoring plays to get a comfortable win despite a physical game and a lot of missed wide-open shots.

2) Greg looked better tonight and it's clear that K is doing a lot of things to try to get his confidence up and to get him big shots. Nolan is still a much better option, even with his back, but Greg looks like he may be finding his role so he can help the team in important ways.

3) Where was Email? I never saw him and the box score lists him as playing 2 minutes. Was he sick or in K's doghouse? This seemed like a place where he could really contribute, so I was surprised he didn't play more. Glad that Marty used the chance to make an impression on O and to play some fairly solid D.

4) I'm as excited about G's play as anyone, but he still has the bad habit of monopolizing the ball for long periods. He'll take 8-10 seconds just dribbling near the top of the key while the offense stagnates and then either drive into multiple defenders or reluctantly pass the ball to someone else outside the arc. He also missed a ton of open players in the post and on the perimeter. Obviously he's doing much more good than bad and he can improve his decision-making and vision but I think a major part of our slo-mo offense comes from this issue. (I still think we need a legit PG to run the O, but that's been hammered to death and isn't going to change this season).

I'm looking forward to getting back home and staying there until Wake on the 28th. I think a lot of our issues, esp. the short FT's, are related to back-to-back physical road games, which we won't have until BC/St. John's in a month. Here's hoping we can show Monroe what he's missing with a convincing win in front of a rocking Cameron this weekend.

BlueDevilBaby
01-15-2009, 10:53 AM
Did anyone hear the game on XM? I listened a little in the car. The GT announcers referred to Duke's coaches as the black-suited mafia. What is that about?

They also said something about Sheyer when he was at the foul line, something about his good freethrow shooting and a comparison with David Henderson. I did not hear whether he said Duke hasn't had a good FT shooter in quite some time (hello. . .JJ?). Immediately after whatever that comment was he made some comparison with David Henderson. No idea why. Anybody catch this? I would love to know what he really said.

77devil
01-15-2009, 11:00 AM
The past two games involved teams with huge front lines who in the past few years would have dominated Duke inside but this year did not. In fact, we outrebounded Tech, and if you think that was only because of Kyle you weren't watching the game closely enough. Without Brian and Lance in there, keeping their men off the boards and fighting for the ball, the Tech bigs could have much more easily neutralized Singler's rebounding attempts. Plus, as someone previously noted, Brian tipped a lot of loose rebounds which were finally caught by Kyle and others. IMO, the fact that Brian could stay on the court for so long against Tech is a very big deal, and makes this year's team much more formidable than in recent times.

As for the minutes, while it's possible that playing 36 minutes could make a player tired at the end of that particular game, the idea that 36 minutes instead of 29 will have a lasting effect doesn't make any sense. I have expressed this opinion many times in past threads and don't really want to re-hash it here, but people are making way too much out of playing time.

Having said that, I believe having to play out of position and guard bigger players on a consistent basis can wear a player down, and Kyle did a lot of that last night. The good news is there aren't that many teams as big as Florida State and Georgia Tech (although Wake Forest is one of them, and Clemson is pretty big, and people talk about UNC's size, although they're significantly smaller than those other teams).

You must be looking at a different stat sheet than me. Together Zoubs and Lance have averaged a combined 30 minutes PT, 5.75 rebounds and 19 total personals in the 3 ACC games. I submit that a continuation of these numbers will result in an ongoing increase in Kyle's minutes in the 5 spot.

You have no idea whether an additional 7 minutes a game over the course of the season will have an adverse effect on Kyle's stamina nor did I make such a statement. I simply wrote an indisputable fact that his total minutes and minutes at the 5 spot are up in ACC play. But I will add that it is not a trend I would prefer to continue. It will be interesting to see how many players on the top teams at the end of the season average as many minutes as Kyle.

jgehtland
01-15-2009, 11:09 AM
I am not positive, but for the last 10 minutes of the game, I thought Kyle stayed "at the four" and McClure was subbing in at the 5. Not that it really matters all that much, but Kyle still operated on the wing both offensively and defensively for most of the last 10 minutes while McClure and Thomas alternated handling the post work.

Which means Kyle is getting heavy burn, but NOT taking it down into the paint as much as last year, which is exactly what I'd like to see.

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 11:14 AM
I am confused when people say that they are not worried about key players getting tired.

Coach K and the players themselves have said, at the end of a few of the last awfully-short post seasons, that key players have been tired at the end. Do people think they are lying? J.J. said a few years that he was exhausted, despite being in AMAZING shape. Kyle said the same thing at the end of last year. And when we see the same thing happening again, where a key player is playing a large number of very physical minutes while shouldering the heavy mental burden of Duke being almost unable to win without a great game from them... from experience, this can lead to a player getting worn out when it matters most. Duke players have said this, Duke coaches have said this, Duke fans have said this, and now even Jay mentioned it.

As for it really being only the last two games where we play against big teams, and not normally having to do that except against almost every other ACC team... well, there you go:) We will be playing big, physical, pounding teams for the rest of the year. We need a lot of bodies to help absorb it; Coach K has said earlier in the year he needs to find minutes for some of the bench guys, and Jay mentioned it during the game, that we need to DEVELOP the bench, particularly the big guys.

This feels like a broken record for both sides at this point. Until we worry about these issues early in the year only to see them NOT resurface at the end of the year, I for one will continue to be just a little concerned.

Speaking of Jay, there were some very funny moments in the FSU game. The reference to Mr. Beaks and the crop report had me snorting my soda through my nose:)

jgehtland
01-15-2009, 11:29 AM
There is nothing statistically different between the rotations of the highly ranked teams who played last night. Below are the breakdowns: I've listed everyone who had more than 30 minutes, and how many guys got 10+.

In almost every case, the team played a total of 10 players. The exceptions: Pitt played 9, MichSt. played 11.

Guys say at the end of the year that they are tired. But, if you ask any player at the end of the year if they are tired, they'll say yes. Its a long season. The difference is we don't pay attention to what the Butler players tell the media after they lose in the tournament. We hear what the Duke players say, and whatever the champs say. And the champs never say they are tired.

Duke's rotation is right where everybody else's is. Look at UNC's numbers from Sunday (bottom of the post) and they SPRINT up and down the court all night.

If our guys are tired because of the rotation, they should drink more protein shakes and sleep more, because it isn't like we're running five guys all the minutes, or doing anything out of the ordinary.

Pitt
Fields - 36
Blair - 32
Seven guys in double figure minutes

MichSt.
Morgon, Suton, Lucas, Walton all > 30
Seven guys in double figure minutes

Duke
Singler - 36
G - 36
Jon - 34
Eight guys in double figure minutes

'Cuse
Harris - 37
Flynn - 37
Devendorf - 35
Seven guys with double figure minutes

G'town
Summers - 34
Freeman - 35
Eight guys with double figure minutes

Wake
Aminu - 33
Johnson - 34
Teague - 34
Williams - 30
Seven guys with double figure minutes

For good measure, UNC, the Deepest, Most Talented Team in the History of Basketball (tm) on Sunday:
Hans - 35
Green - 33
Lawson - 34
Ellington - 31
Seven guys in double figures, nine guys played

SMO
01-15-2009, 12:24 PM
There is nothing statistically different between the rotations of the highly ranked teams who played last night. Below are the breakdowns: I've listed everyone who had more than 30 minutes, and how many guys got 10+.

In almost every case, the team played a total of 10 players. The exceptions: Pitt played 9, MichSt. played 11.

Guys say at the end of the year that they are tired. But, if you ask any player at the end of the year if they are tired, they'll say yes. Its a long season. The difference is we don't pay attention to what the Butler players tell the media after they lose in the tournament. We hear what the Duke players say, and whatever the champs say. And the champs never say they are tired.

Duke's rotation is right where everybody else's is. Look at UNC's numbers from Sunday (bottom of the post) and they SPRINT up and down the court all night.

If our guys are tired because of the rotation, they should drink more protein shakes and sleep more, because it isn't like we're running five guys all the minutes, or doing anything out of the ordinary.

Pitt
Fields - 36
Blair - 32
Seven guys in double figure minutes

MichSt.
Morgon, Suton, Lucas, Walton all > 30
Seven guys in double figure minutes

Duke
Singler - 36
G - 36
Jon - 34
Eight guys in double figure minutes

'Cuse
Harris - 37
Flynn - 37
Devendorf - 35
Seven guys with double figure minutes

G'town
Summers - 34
Freeman - 35
Eight guys with double figure minutes

Wake
Aminu - 33
Johnson - 34
Teague - 34
Williams - 30
Seven guys with double figure minutes

For good measure, UNC, the Deepest, Most Talented Team in the History of Basketball (tm) on Sunday:
Hans - 35
Green - 33
Lawson - 34
Ellington - 31
Seven guys in double figures, nine guys played

Thank you! I've been having similar thoughts but hadn't gone to do the research. What do you think J Will's, Battier's, Dunleavy's, and Boozer's minutes were on our last Nat'l Championship team? I would guess they were pretty high.

greybeard
01-15-2009, 12:31 PM
There is a lot tp like about this Duke team. They play hard and they play outstanding defense, and that will keep you in the game the vast majority of the time. Right now they are very good. If they are going to turn the corner and become a great team they have to shoot the ball better. I just have to think that that is going to happen and the percentage is going to go up. They play with four capable shooters on the floor most of the time. I am holding out hope that the shooting will come around. GT had been shooting as bad as anyone in the country prior to tonight, and they actually shot the ball pretty well against a great defense. A guy that was literally 0-21 on the year hit all of his threes! Duke's shooting will come around.

Georgetown beat Syracuse last night and shot really well after a series of games when they couldn't throw it in the ocean. After the game, JTIII was asked to explain it. He said that this week they got the ball inside and shooters were catching it from inside out. He said that that made the difference. I think that there is more than a little to that (you think!).

Lord Ash
01-15-2009, 12:34 PM
Interesting info for sure. I wonder, if we looked at minutes vs contribution of points if there would be a connection? You mention the 2001 team; I think of that team as having six legit big time scorers. Kyle and JJ (two recent examples) are both guys who have struggled with being tired at the end of the season and also were primary options on teams without many options at all. I think this plays a bigger part in being exhausted, to be honest, than a few fewer minutes per game.

SupaDave
01-15-2009, 12:39 PM
Georgetown beat Syracuse last night and shot really well after a series of games when they couldn't throw it in the ocean. After the game, JTIII was asked to explain it. He said that this week they got the ball inside and shooters were catching it from inside out. He said that that made the difference. I think that there is more than a little to that (you think!).

Greg Monroe having two recent double doubles also made a difference I'm sure (and nearly a triple double against Providendce).

Channing
01-15-2009, 12:44 PM
One thing I noticed is that Zoubek is very tentative around the goal. I mean, the guy is 7'1" and I have never actually seen him dunk the ball (that I can recall- and I am looking for it). He also seems to be a little weak with the ball. It gets knocked out of his hands a lot.

I remember Aaron Grey at Pitt a couple years ago. While Grey had some beef on Zoubek, Z is 100 times more athletic than he was. In fact, watching gim shoot free throws and make a move in the game every now and again, he seems to be a very coordinated fellow. If Zoubek can turn into an Aaron Grey kind of player, we will be very very difficult to stop.

MChambers
01-15-2009, 12:49 PM
Georgetown beat Syracuse last night and shot really well after a series of games when they couldn't throw it in the ocean. After the game, JTIII was asked to explain it. He said that this week they got the ball inside and shooters were catching it from inside out. He said that that made the difference. I think that there is more than a little to that (you think!).

It's much easier to shoot an outside shot off a pass, especially off of a pass from inside. No question about it.

ncexnyc
01-15-2009, 12:58 PM
An ugly, but nice win.

Kyle had me worried at the start of the game, as he was launching 3's, but once he moved into the post, he got down and dirty.

G's scoring is finally where many us hoped it would be. It would appear that the wrist is ok, as the pull-up jumper has returned to his arsenal of weapons.

We had a nice Marty sighting last night. I loved the pump fake on a 3 and then the blowby to the rack, really awesome.

David is David. I'm not sure how much more we can say about this kid. His block was unreal!

Greg finally gave us the offensive lift we've been waiting for. Hopefully this will continue.

Nolan wasn't much of a factor offensively, but he did an outstanding job on Tech's PG.

Jon had a quiet game and his shooting was really off for most of the game, but he did come up big at the end.

Lance seems to have fallen back into his old ways. Lots of wasted energy, with little to show for it.

Brian's contribution is harder to define. He's definitely a space eater out there, which helps the defense. It also appears that he bothers shooters as well. His hands aren't the best when rebounding and he was stripped once. I recall one play where the Tech player lowered his rump into Brian and backed him out of position like Brian was a rag doll. So what's all this mean? I guess while not putting up big stats, he's giving us a solid body in the post, which keeps Kyle from having to fill that role. I may be mistaken, but I believe I heard Bilas comment on Duke missing Brian a couple of times when he was open during the early part of the game.

Bring on the Hoyas!

whereinthehellami
01-15-2009, 01:17 PM
Anybody else notice that G is shooing .431 from 3 this year. Compare that to last year when he shot .317. No one else is above 40% and the closest is Jon at .381. Good job G!!

For the most part they have been open looks. He is tough defend when he is shooting it well from the outside, as that opens up the drive. I thought his 15 foot jumper going out of bounds was a thing of a beauty last night. Reminded me of the Keth Smart shot from years ago that won the Championship game for Indiana. Great elevation. Pretty.

77devil
01-15-2009, 01:20 PM
There is nothing statistically different between the rotations of the highly ranked teams who played last night. Below are the breakdowns: I've listed everyone who had more than 30 minutes, and how many guys got 10+.

In almost every case, the team played a total of 10 players. The exceptions: Pitt played 9, MichSt. played 11.

Guys say at the end of the year that they are tired. But, if you ask any player at the end of the year if they are tired, they'll say yes. Its a long season. The difference is we don't pay attention to what the Butler players tell the media after they lose in the tournament. We hear what the Duke players say, and whatever the champs say. And the champs never say they are tired.

Duke's rotation is right where everybody else's is. Look at UNC's numbers from Sunday (bottom of the post) and they SPRINT up and down the court all night.

If our guys are tired because of the rotation, they should drink more protein shakes and sleep more, because it isn't like we're running five guys all the minutes, or doing anything out of the ordinary.

Pitt
Fields - 36
Blair - 32
Seven guys in double figure minutes

MichSt.
Morgon, Suton, Lucas, Walton all > 30
Seven guys in double figure minutes

Duke
Singler - 36
G - 36
Jon - 34
Eight guys in double figure minutes

'Cuse
Harris - 37
Flynn - 37
Devendorf - 35
Seven guys with double figure minutes

G'town
Summers - 34
Freeman - 35
Eight guys with double figure minutes

Wake
Aminu - 33
Johnson - 34
Teague - 34
Williams - 30
Seven guys with double figure minutes

For good measure, UNC, the Deepest, Most Talented Team in the History of Basketball (tm) on Sunday:
Hans - 35
Green - 33
Lawson - 34
Ellington - 31
Seven guys in double figures, nine guys played

You understand don't you that the data are not meaningful as to the point you are trying to make.

whereinthehellami
01-15-2009, 01:25 PM
There is nothing statistically different between the rotations of the highly ranked teams who played last night. Below are the breakdowns: I've listed everyone who had more than 30 minutes, and how many guys got 10+.

In almost every case, the team played a total of 10 players. The exceptions: Pitt played 9, MichSt. played 11.

Guys say at the end of the year that they are tired. But, if you ask any player at the end of the year if they are tired, they'll say yes. Its a long season. The difference is we don't pay attention to what the Butler players tell the media after they lose in the tournament. We hear what the Duke players say, and whatever the champs say. And the champs never say they are tired.

Duke's rotation is right where everybody else's is. Look at UNC's numbers from Sunday (bottom of the post) and they SPRINT up and down the court all night.

If our guys are tired because of the rotation, they should drink more protein shakes and sleep more, because it isn't like we're running five guys all the minutes, or doing anything out of the ordinary.

Pitt
Fields - 36
Blair - 32
Seven guys in double figure minutes

MichSt.
Morgon, Suton, Lucas, Walton all > 30
Seven guys in double figure minutes

Duke
Singler - 36
G - 36
Jon - 34
Eight guys in double figure minutes

'Cuse
Harris - 37
Flynn - 37
Devendorf - 35
Seven guys with double figure minutes

G'town
Summers - 34
Freeman - 35
Eight guys with double figure minutes

Wake
Aminu - 33
Johnson - 34
Teague - 34
Williams - 30
Seven guys with double figure minutes

For good measure, UNC, the Deepest, Most Talented Team in the History of Basketball (tm) on Sunday:
Hans - 35
Green - 33
Lawson - 34
Ellington - 31
Seven guys in double figures, nine guys played

Interesting numbers. But with the style Duke plays and the lack of a go to post presence, the effects are much more pronounced at the end of the year for Duke. When Dukes player's legs are tired at the end of the year from playing long minutes and a relentless man-to-man defense the shots will start to fall short. Those other teams can go inside when that happens. Duke doesn't have that luxury. That is why I wish guys were playing 30 MPG or less. Duke more than other teams need guys to be fresher at the end of the year.

roywhite
01-15-2009, 01:31 PM
Interesting numbers. But with the style Duke plays and the lack of a go to post presence, the effects are much more pronounced at the end of the year for Duke. When Dukes player's legs are tired at the end of the year from playing long minutes and a relentless man-to-man defense the shots will start to fall short. Those other teams can go inside when that happens. Duke doesn't have that luxury. That is why I wish guys were playing 30 MPG or less. Duke more than other teams need guys to be fresher at the end of the year.

As Coach K himself says, let's enjoy the ride. This is a really fun team to watch and we're 15-1.

No doubt we'll all be watching/worrying about the team's condition in March. But this team is more experienced, stronger, and healthier than the last two editions.

Duvall
01-15-2009, 01:45 PM
As Coach K himself says, let's enjoy the ride. This is a really fun team to watch and we're 15-1.

No doubt we'll all be watching/worrying about the team's condition in March. But this team is more experienced, stronger, and healthier than the last two editions.

I disagree. I think now is definitely time to panic; after all, we have players averaging almost 30 minutes per game on the season.

jgehtland
01-15-2009, 01:52 PM
You understand don't you that the data are not meaningful as to the point you are trying to make.

No, actually, I don't.

The data I showed:

Duke's big guns do not play statistically more minutes than the big guns on other teams ranked highly in the polls.

The point I am trying to make:

Duke's big guns do not play statistically more minutes than the big guns on other teams ranked highly in the polls, therefore I do not understand all the worrying about minutes per game taking its toll on Duke players since that should apply to other teams as well.

I am directly extrapolating a conclusion from a set of data. Not sure I understand your point.

I do understand the other commenter's point, though. Perhaps being tired is worse for Duke than for other teams, though I think the blanket statement that all those other teams can just "go inside" when tired is both an oversimplification (not all those teams have big inside presences, like the 'Cuse for example) and is also a little bit of chicken-and-egg (isn't it all the "going inside" that is supposed to be so tiring?) but I can see the point.

SMO
01-15-2009, 01:54 PM
Interesting numbers. But with the style Duke plays and the lack of a go to post presence, the effects are much more pronounced at the end of the year for Duke. When Dukes player's legs are tired at the end of the year from playing long minutes and a relentless man-to-man defense the shots will start to fall short. Those other teams can go inside when that happens. Duke doesn't have that luxury. That is why I wish guys were playing 30 MPG or less. Duke more than other teams need guys to be fresher at the end of the year.

This is an interesting suggestion. I would think that if playing relentless man-to-man wears Duke down, then they would finish halves poorly (unless the other team is more worn down by playing against relentless man-to-man). Does anyone have any stats on how Duke's +/- compares vs. the competition in the final 5 minutes of each half?

Kedsy
01-15-2009, 01:58 PM
Thank you! I've been having similar thoughts but hadn't gone to do the research. What do you think J Will's, Battier's, Dunleavy's, and Boozer's minutes were on our last Nat'l Championship team? I would guess they were pretty high.

In 2000-01, here are the season-long average mpg:

Shane Battier: 34.9
Jason Williams: 31.8
Mike Dunleavy: 29.2
Chris Duhon: 27.8
Nate James: 27.8
Carlos Boozer: 25.6

next highest (Andre Sweet) was 11.3.

Shane didn't look all that tired in the championship game that year.

SMO
01-15-2009, 02:03 PM
In 2000-01, here are the season-long average mpg:

Shane Battier: 34.9
Jason Williams: 31.8
Mike Dunleavy: 29.2
Chris Duhon: 27.8
Nate James: 27.8
Carlos Boozer: 25.6

next highest (Andre Sweet) was 11.3.

Shane didn't look all that tired in the championship game that year.

Unacceptable! What was coach thinking playing Battier that much all season???:p

Kedsy
01-15-2009, 02:05 PM
Interesting info for sure. I wonder, if we looked at minutes vs contribution of points if there would be a connection? You mention the 2001 team; I think of that team as having six legit big time scorers. Kyle and JJ (two recent examples) are both guys who have struggled with being tired at the end of the season and also were primary options on teams without many options at all. I think this plays a bigger part in being exhausted, to be honest, than a few fewer minutes per game.

I completely agree. When I play, running in (more or less) straight lines up and down the court is not particularly tiring to me. Cutting back and forth trying to lose your defender and rub him off picks is much more tiring (as is defending someone who is doing that, fighting through the picks, etc.). Defending a much larger player is the most exhausting of all. I also imagine the mental toll of knowing that the team's success or failure pretty much hinges on your performance and therefore every single play matters can add up. These sorts of things would explain JJ's and Kyle's fatigue (along with four months of strenuous practices and in Kyle's case the fact of being a freshman) a lot better than the number of minutes per game they play.

77devil
01-15-2009, 02:31 PM
No, actually, I don't.

The data I showed:

Duke's big guns do not play statistically more minutes than the big guns on other teams ranked highly in the polls.

The point I am trying to make:

Duke's big guns do not play statistically more minutes than the big guns on other teams ranked highly in the polls, therefore I do not understand all the worrying about minutes per game taking its toll on Duke players since that should apply to other teams as well.

I am directly extrapolating a conclusion from a set of data. Not sure I understand your point.

I do understand the other commenter's point, though. Perhaps being tired is worse for Duke than for other teams, though I think the blanket statement that all those other teams can just "go inside" when tired is both an oversimplification (not all those teams have big inside presences, like the 'Cuse for example) and is also a little bit of chicken-and-egg (isn't it all the "going inside" that is supposed to be so tiring?) but I can see the point.

One cannot meaningfully extrapolate to the conclusions you tried to make from one set of data. That was the point.

Dukefan4Life
01-15-2009, 02:32 PM
The game last night once again proved what we are lacking! we dont have the ability to score or defend down low very well. I hope we can figure out a way to compensate for this come march!

ncexnyc
01-15-2009, 02:42 PM
In 2000-01, here are the season-long average mpg:

Shane Battier: 34.9
Jason Williams: 31.8
Mike Dunleavy: 29.2
Chris Duhon: 27.8
Nate James: 27.8
Carlos Boozer: 25.6

next highest (Andre Sweet) was 11.3.

Shane didn't look all that tired in the championship game that year.

That's a fairly balanced distribution of minutes between those 6 players. I also know that any of those 6 would be capable of having a big game scoring wise. I'm not confident we could say the same for the current team.

Again, what many fear is that fatigue will lead to a flurry of jumpers falling short at the wrong time.

RepoMan
01-15-2009, 03:17 PM
what many fear is that fatigue will lead to a flurry of jumpers falling short at the wrong time.

What about the fatigue suffered by people annually worried about fatigue? That's what I'm worried about. It must be exhausting.

roywhite
01-15-2009, 03:28 PM
The game last night once again proved what we are lacking! we dont have the ability to score or defend down low very well. I hope we can figure out a way to compensate for this come march!

Not exactly. We scored down low, albeit with Singler getting many of the inside hoops; Lance and Zoubs did not score much, and K noted that concern.

As to defending down low, we did that and have been doing that. As I noted elsewhere, Lawal and Aminu both looked good early, but Lawal ended up with only 6 points (way below his average) and Aminu 8 points.

SMO
01-15-2009, 03:30 PM
That's a fairly balanced distribution of minutes between those 6 players. I also know that any of those 6 would be capable of having a big game scoring wise. I'm not confident we could say the same for the current team.

Again, what many fear is that fatigue will lead to a flurry of jumpers falling short at the wrong time.

I can't think of any team in the country that has 6 guys capable of a big game on any given night. Can anyone else?

Gooch
01-15-2009, 03:31 PM
Did anyone hear the game on XM? I listened a little in the car. The GT announcers referred to Duke's coaches as the black-suited mafia. What is that about?



How funny. My 6-year-old daughter said "why are all those people wearing black outfits in front of the Duke bench?" I crack-up at her observations during the games--what I wouldn't give to see the world like a six-year-old does sometimes.

RepoMan
01-15-2009, 03:32 PM
Again, what many fear is that fatigue will lead to a flurry of jumpers falling short at the wrong time.


For interesting commentary on the eternal issue of fatigue, see herehttp://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=242051&postcount=7

juise
01-15-2009, 03:45 PM
Again, what many fear is that fatigue will lead to a flurry of jumpers falling short at the wrong time.

Well, our jumpshot shooting has not been stellar this year. Are our missed shots mostly back iron? Perhaps tired legs will help. :p



I also wanted to comment on the comparisons between current players' minutes and Shane's senior year minutes. I don't the comparisons are fair. Shane was a pretty uniquely gifted athlete, in my opinion.

I couldn't find a link, but I remember a report about a pre-draft workout (with the Hawks?) during which his endurance proved to be elite. I believe that he was tested on how many times he could repeatedly dunk the ball, starting from flat-footed underneath the hoop. I'm pretty sure this is a drill that this team had been doing with all potential draftees and that Shane crushed the record for most consecutive dunks. Maybe someone could fill in the details.

jgehtland
01-15-2009, 04:04 PM
One cannot meaningfully extrapolate to the conclusions you tried to make from one set of data. That was the point.

Would it be more acceptable if I just posted my opinions and conjectures without any data at all? Conversely, how many actual data points would I need before I was allowed to draw conclusions from it? Everybody complaining about minutes is complaining about last night. I compared last night Duke against last night's ranked teams. Might not pass muster as a thesis, but plenty useful enough for a basketball discussion.

pfrduke
01-15-2009, 04:04 PM
Well, our jumpshot shooting has not been stellar this year. Are our missed shots mostly back iron? Perhaps tired legs will help. :p



I also wanted to comment on the comparisons between current players' minutes and Shane's senior year minutes. I don't the comparisons are fair. Shane was a pretty uniquely gifted athlete, in my opinion.

I couldn't find a link, but I remember a report about a pre-draft workout (with the Hawks?) during which his endurance proved to be elite. I believe that he was tested on how many times he could repeatedly dunk the ball, starting from flat-footed underneath the hoop. I'm pretty sure this is a drill that this team had been doing with all potential draftees and that Shane crushed the record for most consecutive dunks. Maybe someone could fill in the details.

Can't be specific with the details, but it's called the Superman drill, and Shane crushed all comers in the field (I recall the number being ~35-40). Jason Richardson was second that year, I believe.

As to the broader point, I'm sure there are hundreds of elite (and probably thousands of not so elite) players who have played 34+ minutes per game in an NCAA season who did not wear down in March. Shane's just a handy example for Duke fans.

MChambers
01-15-2009, 04:31 PM
What about the fatigue suffered by people annually worried about fatigue? That's what I'm worried about. It must be exhausting.

I know I'm tired of it.

MChambers
01-15-2009, 04:34 PM
Would it be more acceptable if I just posted my opinions and conjectures without any data at all? Conversely, how many actual data points would I need before I was allowed to draw conclusions from it? Everybody complaining about minutes is complaining about last night. I compared last night Duke against last night's ranked teams. Might not pass muster as a thesis, but plenty useful enough for a basketball discussion.

You made a nice effort to quiet those who worry about minutes (without the use of any data at all, I might point out).

Imagine how much better Bobby Hurley would have been in his career had he not averaged 34 minutes per game. Of course, some will point out that he didn't have to bang down low. Of course, he did apply the best ball pressure Duke's ever had, but the naysayers will find a way to discount that.

Matches
01-15-2009, 04:40 PM
As to the broader point, I'm sure there are hundreds of elite (and probably thousands of not so elite) players who have played 34+ minutes per game in an NCAA season who did not wear down in March. Shane's just a handy example for Duke fans.

That begs the question of why it seems to be a recurring issue for Duke players. And it IS a recurring issue - not just because some fans won't let it go, but because the sentiment has been voiced more than once by the players.

SMO
01-15-2009, 05:05 PM
Well, our jumpshot shooting has not been stellar this year. Are our missed shots mostly back iron? Perhaps tired legs will help. :p



I also wanted to comment on the comparisons between current players' minutes and Shane's senior year minutes. I don't the comparisons are fair. Shane was a pretty uniquely gifted athlete, in my opinion.

I couldn't find a link, but I remember a report about a pre-draft workout (with the Hawks?) during which his endurance proved to be elite. I believe that he was tested on how many times he could repeatedly dunk the ball, starting from flat-footed underneath the hoop. I'm pretty sure this is a drill that this team had been doing with all potential draftees and that Shane crushed the record for most consecutive dunks. Maybe someone could fill in the details.

Didn't I also read the John Scheyer has extraordinary cardiovascular endurance as measured by some test the team does (see below)? Yet, we remain concerned when he plays over 30 minutes.

Originally Posted by Jumbo
The staff loves Scheyer's defense. Basketball officials I've spoken to love his defense. I've never heard anyone who has coached or scouted refer to him as "slow." If anything, he's an above average athlete and somewhat of a freak, if you remember the story DBR linked about his VO2 test being better than Lance Armstrong's. (Link is dead from the Chicago Tribune, but here's the relevant paragraph:
"To create a baseline medical history, Duke puts freshman athletes through a litany of tests.
One of the more arcane exams is the VO2 Max test, which measures an individual's maximal rate of oxygen consumption—essentially, how well one's body produces the energy necessary for endurance activities.
So doctors at Duke's K Lab hooked Scheyer up to the electrodes. They shoved a breathing apparatus into his mouth—"When you're done, you pull it out and there's drool everywhere," Scheyer says—and told him to start pedaling.
World-class male athletes typically exceed a VO2 Max test score of 80. According to a University of Texas study, seven-time Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong's score is 85.
Scheyer registered an 89."

whereinthehellami
01-15-2009, 05:17 PM
As Coach K himself says, let's enjoy the ride. This is a really fun team to watch and we're 15-1.

No doubt we'll all be watching/worrying about the team's condition in March. But this team is more experienced, stronger, and healthier than the last two editions.

I'm enjoying the ride. But its always fun to look ahead as a fan....er...unless you see the same thing happening again in March. But that is why they play the games. I have enjoyed watching Kyle Singler play more than any other Blue Devil I can remember (which goes back to the 1986 team). He is the player that I always dreamed of being back when I played and came up short of the dream.

juise
01-15-2009, 07:11 PM
Can't be specific with the details, but it's called the Superman drill, and Shane crushed all comers in the field (I recall the number being ~35-40). Jason Richardson was second that year, I believe.

Thanks. I also recalled the "Superman" and Jason Richardson aspects, but I thought the number was higher (probably just because I love Shane so much :)). Neither helped me in my Google searching efforts.

pfrduke
01-15-2009, 07:31 PM
Thanks. I also recalled the "Superman" and Jason Richardson aspects, but I thought the number was higher (probably just because I love Shane so much :)). Neither helped me in my Google searching efforts.

You're right that the number was higher (http://m.commercialappeal.com/news/2001/Jul/01/citizen-shane/).

Relevant quote:

The Atlanta Hawks put prospective draft picks through something called the Superman drill. They roll basketballs on the floor and tell the players to dunk them, one after another, until they can dunk no more.

Most players dunk about 30 or 40 balls. Michigan State's Jason Richardson came in right before Battier and stunned everyone by dunking 63.

"So in comes Battier," Roth says, "and knocks down 70."

chrisheery
01-16-2009, 12:19 AM
but, isn't this even better?

For now, though, Battier is just doing what he does best, winning friends and dazzling people.

Not long ago he had lunch with Grizzlies owner Michael Heisley. They talked about medical education and world religion and whether it was wise to try to earn a business degree online.

By the end of the lunch, Heisley was both wowed and regretful.

"I'm almost sorry he's going to play basketball for us," he said. "I'd like him to run one of my companies."

ncexnyc
01-16-2009, 01:48 AM
I can't think of any team in the country that has 6 guys capable of a big game on any given night. Can anyone else?

My response was directed at the introduction of the 2000-01 team into this thread.

Yes, there may not be a current team in the country capable of boasting 6 potential 20+ point scorers on any given night, (UNC comes close with it's starting 5 IMHO), but our 2000-01, certainly could.

That was an extra special team and trying to hold that squad up as the standard to which you compare other teams and make statements such as was implied just doesn't fly.

If Coach K is GOD, when it comes to his coaching decisions, I find it rather odd that some members want to ignore his almighty word when it comes to the matter of fatigue at the end of the season. If I recall correctly, Jumbo started a post titled, "You Can't Have It Both Ways." It seems to me that either Coach knows what he's talking about or he doesn't. Since the man has over 800 wins to his credit, I'll believe him when he says fatigue played a factor at the end of a season.

jgehtland
01-16-2009, 07:52 AM
My response was directed at the introduction of the 2000-01 team into this thread.

Yes, there may not be a current team in the country capable of boasting 6 potential 20+ point scorers on any given night, (UNC comes close with it's starting 5 IMHO), but our 2000-01, certainly could.

That was an extra special team and trying to hold that squad up as the standard to which you compare other teams and make statements such as was implied just doesn't fly.

If Coach K is GOD, when it comes to his coaching decisions, I find it rather odd that some members want to ignore his almighty word when it comes to the matter of fatigue at the end of the season. If I recall correctly, Jumbo started a post titled, "You Can't Have It Both Ways." It seems to me that either Coach knows what he's talking about or he doesn't. Since the man has over 800 wins to his credit, I'll believe him when he says fatigue played a factor at the end of a season.

Really, this comes down to a single question, then. If Coach K knows that fatigue plays a factor at the end of the season, AND Coach K uses his rotation basically the same way every year, AND the way he uses his rotations causes fatigue at the end of the year, THEN either Coach K is willfully ignorant of the effects his own coaching decisions have on player fatigue at the end of the year OR he doesn't want to win in March OR it isn't the minutes or the rotation, just luck of the draw.

For example, I don't think we are talking about this if the flu hadn't hit the team last year just before the NCAAs.

This argument, when reduced, is "K doesn't know how to manage a team for March". Which is a perfectly reasonable argument to make, but let's be explicit about it.

And, by the way, I wish people would stop classifying lack of worry about minutes as believing Coach K is GOD. That's a good example of framing, but bad for discussion. ;-)

moonpie23
01-16-2009, 08:30 AM
You're right that the number was higher (http://m.commercialappeal.com/news/2001/Jul/01/citizen-shane/).

Relevant quote:

i remember that story, and if my memory serves me correctly, the highly touted KWAME BROWN was at the very same workout coming in with something like 30.......


i also remember the qoute from shane : "i guess i'm in better shape than they thought ! "

SMO
01-16-2009, 11:10 AM
My response was directed at the introduction of the 2000-01 team into this thread.

Yes, there may not be a current team in the country capable of boasting 6 potential 20+ point scorers on any given night, (UNC comes close with it's starting 5 IMHO), but our 2000-01, certainly could.

That was an extra special team and trying to hold that squad up as the standard to which you compare other teams and make statements such as was implied just doesn't fly.

If Coach K is GOD, when it comes to his coaching decisions, I find it rather odd that some members want to ignore his almighty word when it comes to the matter of fatigue at the end of the season. If I recall correctly, Jumbo started a post titled, "You Can't Have It Both Ways." It seems to me that either Coach knows what he's talking about or he doesn't. Since the man has over 800 wins to his credit, I'll believe him when he says fatigue played a factor at the end of a season.

So minutes didn't matter to the 2000-01 team, but they do matter to this team. And minutes don't matter to other good teams this year, but they do matter to Duke. Could someone please lay out the full algorithm showing the situations in which minutes matter, and when they don't? Maybe we could do a multiple regression on fatigue with minutes as a primary driver but with dummy variables for "playing relentless man-to-man" and "playing zone". The focus on minutes is so overdone on this board.

ncexnyc
01-16-2009, 11:10 AM
Really, this comes down to a single question, then. If Coach K knows that fatigue plays a factor at the end of the season, AND Coach K uses his rotation basically the same way every year, AND the way he uses his rotations causes fatigue at the end of the year, THEN either Coach K is willfully ignorant of the effects his own coaching decisions have on player fatigue at the end of the year OR he doesn't want to win in March OR it isn't the minutes or the rotation, just luck of the draw.

For example, I don't think we are talking about this if the flu hadn't hit the team last year just before the NCAAs.

This argument, when reduced, is "K doesn't know how to manage a team for March". Which is a perfectly reasonable argument to make, but let's be explicit about it.

And, by the way, I wish people would stop classifying lack of worry about minutes as believing Coach K is GOD. That's a good example of framing, but bad for discussion. ;-)

An interesting post, however you ignored a fourth choice, that being Coach K had no other choice but to play the players he had in the fashion he did due to talent level or lack of it.

I am also surprised the flu issue/excuse is being used again. I know a number of board members have stated this in the past, but no one has ever come forward with a definitive link with a quote from the staff or any player. I will concede that wouldn't be Coach K's style to detract from WVa's win by giving reason/excuse that some people would immediately jump on, but if it were indeed true, I always felt that Nelson was in effect being thrown under the proverbial bus. That's just my opinion on that situation, so please no angry responses to that portion of this post.:D

ncexnyc
01-16-2009, 11:25 AM
So minutes didn't matter to the 2000-01 team, but they do matter to this team. And minutes don't matter to other good teams this year, but they do matter to Duke. Could someone please lay out the full algorithm showing the situations in which minutes matter, and when they don't? Maybe we could do a multiple regression on fatigue with minutes as a primary driver but with dummy variables for "playing relentless man-to-man" and "playing zone". The focus on minutes is so overdone on this board.
Maybe you need to look at the original post again. The 00-01 team had the minutes spreadout fairly evenly, with just Shane getting a large number of them. That list also includes 4 current NBA players who start for their teams, a fifth whose career was cut short by injury and a sixth who is currently on our coaching staff, that's a pretty elite group if you ask me.

I've never said that game minutes alone wear a kid down, it's a combination of factors. I just don't understand how some people want to dismiss it totally, especially when our own staff and players have talked about being fatigued at the end of a season.

SMO
01-16-2009, 11:37 AM
Maybe you need to look at the original post again. The 00-01 team had the minutes spreadout fairly evenly, with just Shane getting a large number of them. That list also includes 4 current NBA players who start for their teams, a fifth whose career was cut short by injury and a sixth who is currently on our coaching staff, that's a pretty elite group if you ask me.

I've never said that game minutes alone wear a kid down, it's a combination of factors. I just don't understand how some people want to dismiss it totally, especially when our own staff and players have talked about being fatigued at the end of a season.

So let me correct my statement: minutes matter for some guys, not for others, and you are clearly capable of determining for whom they matter and for whom they do not. They didn't mean squat for Battier, but they do matter for some guys on this year's team. Which ones, and how much do they matter? Enlighten us. What about Scheyer's strong cardio scores? Do minutes matter for him? To what extent and how many is too many?

I would never argue that minutes mean nothing, but clearly they are overemphasized on this board. Check out the new post that went up on the Coach K era charting minutes played vs. level of success for some perspective.

-jk
01-16-2009, 11:46 AM
Please take the "minutes" discussions over here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13750) and leave this thread to discussions of the GT game.

thanks,

-jk

ncexnyc
01-17-2009, 07:31 PM
I just want to give a shoutout to our guards for their excellent D on the Tech backcourt. We focused a great deal on their frontline in our discussions, but I see that today against State, Shumpert and Clinch had 40, while they had less than half of that against us.

SupaDave
01-17-2009, 07:43 PM
I just want to give a shoutout to our guards for their excellent D on the Tech backcourt. We focused a great deal on their frontline in our discussions, but I see that today against State, Shumpert and Clinch had 40, while they had less than half of that against us.

Clinch shot 6-10 from the 3pt line. Apparently there's a chance I could start for N.C. State. :)

jpfrizzle
01-17-2009, 07:46 PM
shouldn't this thread be locked?