MBB: Duke vs. FSU post game thread [Archive]

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Bob Green

01-10-2009, 04:29 PM

Post your FSU game thoughts here.

grossbus

01-10-2009, 04:33 PM

be nice to have this G every game.

so much for our starters shooting 83% from the line. everyone was front rimming them until mcclure got up and whammed two off the back rim.

when we are focussed, we are pretty darn good. we seem to have attention span lapses however.

Coballs

01-10-2009, 04:33 PM

roywhite

01-10-2009, 04:33 PM

Dear Seminole fans,

Sorry you did not get to rush the court this year.

Scoreboard.

miramar

01-10-2009, 04:34 PM

Duke played some great basketball in the second half, but things got ugly at the end. Before Scheyer hit the final two free throws, Duke had a stretch where they hit 4-12 FTs and turned the ball over twice.

Gerald played his best game so far, and that was good to watch.

pamtar

01-10-2009, 04:35 PM

Dear Seminole fans,

Sorry you did not get to rush the court this year.

Scoreboard.

Hilarious.

geraldsneighbor

01-10-2009, 04:36 PM

Talk about an annoying group of students.

Paulus didn't play much today, and we saw alot of Scheyer handling the ball I believe mainly because of how big the perimeter guys were on FSU.

Nolan took a step forward today asserting himself well in transition.

And then there was Gerald Henderson....he played pretty well.

DukieInBrasil

01-10-2009, 04:36 PM

i´m glad we won, FSU has been very tough for us in Tallahassee lately. We built a huge a lead, 25 pts, and then just funked it up all the way to the end. Did we go to the spread offense there? If so, i would strongly recommend to K that he not do that anymore. Why stop the flow of your team building a 25 pt lead? If there was spread and just poor Duke basketball then i take it back.
Great game from G, his first truly excellent game this year.

Oriole Way

01-10-2009, 04:37 PM

It was good to play our C game against a good defense and big team and still win, but we did too much in the second half to lose the game. Turnovers and terrible free throw shooting when we should have put the game out of reach. We played good defense in the first half, but much of that is attributable to FSU being a mediocre jump-shooting team and missing open looks.

Nolan Smith has a bad habit of making bad turnovers at the absolute worst times. In our next couple games, I would like to see Scheyer bring the ball up in the second half until Smith starts making better decisions. Smith is young and talented, so I'm hopeful for some improvement, but our point guard play is concerning.

Why did K go away from Zoubek in the second half? When he was out of the game, we were absolutely punished on the offensive glass. I didn't think Zoubek played terribly, and he was taken out after making a nice play to get the ball and get fouled, hitting two free throws. He never re-appeared - why?

This team still gets big leads in the second half only to give up the lead late in the second half. It's a broken record. What can be done to solve this? I'm still not a big fan of the stall offense, but obviously that's a hot debate on these boards.

It was nice to see Gerald assert himself. This game will be good for his confidence and that can only be a good thing. Gerald finally took over a game late in the second half, which is something we have not seen since last season against Belmont.

It was a tough and gritty win, but I'm concerned by our turnovers and our offense in general. We've played two bad games in a row against decent teams. I don't like our chances against UNC, Wake, and Clemson at this point. I am encouraged by the fact our defense is ahead of our offense, and that there are things we can do to improve the offense. But we need to be making drastic improvements offensively soon, or we're going to see a disappointing replay of the past two seasons' collapse.

houstondukie

01-10-2009, 04:40 PM

Highlights:
1. Winning
2. G
3. Team defense for much of the game
4. McClure's effort

Lowlights:
1. Second half let up after opening up a 25 lead
2. Little to no inside production from LT and Zoubek against the big front line
3. Paulus
4. Singler looking fatigued towards the end of the game (short on his late free throws)
5. Late game FTs
6. No run at all for Plumlee

Lowlights:
7. 3 bench points
8. 21 offensive rebounds by FSU
9. 17 turnovers (7 by Nolan Smith)

I'll take the win. Brilliant defense at times. G was terrific.

I'm also confused why Zoubek didn't play more.

Duvall

01-10-2009, 04:40 PM

huied

01-10-2009, 04:43 PM

I agree that we have too many TOs, but I think a lot of them were 'slap fouls' that just weren't called. That reach around poke is almost always a foul in every game that I've played or seen.

Jumbo

01-10-2009, 04:45 PM

Talk about an annoying group of students.

It's that one moron sitting behind the announcers, every game. The guy is more concerned with Paulus than his own team. You could hear everything he said -- pathetic.

Jumbo

01-10-2009, 04:46 PM

jpfrizzle

01-10-2009, 04:47 PM

Apart from all the thuggish playing from FSU in the first half, Duke got the jump on FSU in the 2nd half, just as I hoped for. Just when it looked like Duke would have a huge lead, something goes wrong and FSU climbs closer. Another tough game from another tough team and there's more where these came from too.

We have to step it up a notch if we plan to go further. No doubt about it.

Go DUKE ! ! ! !

Jumbo

01-10-2009, 04:52 PM

First of all, I hope someone gives FSU credit for playing really good D and really tough for most of the game. A game is never just all about us.

Next, this was obviously an ugly win, but I'll take a few ugly wins on the road in the ACC. The fact that we won (and built a 25-point lead) in spite of the following things is pretty amazing:
-The entire first-half performance on offense.
-Our steadiest player (Scheyer) putting forth his worst all-around performance of the season.
-Zoubek turning into a non-factor finally playing against someone his size (he has to work harder off the ball).
-Singler's pedestrian, foul-plagued performance.
-Paulus struggling so much in his first stint that Williams took his place in the rotation during the second part of the first half.
-Poor free throw shooting from our best free throw shooters.
-A ton of turnovers by Smith.

To have so many things go wrong and still win fairly comfortably says a lot. I'm quite confident that Scheyer and free throws are not any kind of a problem moving forward. The other issues pop up from time to time, but it's pretty amazing to see them all in one game.

And that's why this team is so good. We have three upper-echelon players. When one of them is really off his game (Scheyer) and the other isn't at peak form either (Singler), the third (Henderson) stepped up in a big way to compensate. This team is quite talented and, as Bilas said, the ceiling is much higher for continued improvement throughout the season.

We've got to get the offense to a more consistent level and find a way to get a few more easy baskets in transition, but that's why we have two more months of games and practices to go before the Tourney.

mike88

01-10-2009, 04:54 PM

Highlights:

Lowlights:
1. Second half let up after opening up a 25 lead
2. Little to no inside production from LT and Zoubek against the big front line
3. Paulus
4. Singler looking fatigued towards the end of the game (short on his late free throws)
5. Late game FTs
6. No run at all for Plumlee

I am very happy with our play today. FSU is as physical a team as we will see all year and Douglas is a great scorer. To compete toe-to-toe and gut out a win on their court is another step forward. We are going to have more games like that, particularly in February-March.

I don't think this is the kind of game where we can expect points from Lance or Zoubek. I do think they need to give us minutes, although Dave McClure helps in that regard, too. The physicial play took its toll on Kyle and Jon, leading to their (uncharacteristic) FT misses. I don't think it will be a trend.

I also don't think we are going to blow out many (if any) ACC teams on the road. I would be happy if we can win 5-6 road games- the league is tough and, as usual, everyone gets up to play us.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I am also concerned whether we have the energy to play games like this in February and March. I hope we can keep Kyle and Jon's minutes at a reasonable level, as the difference in their play when they are tired is noticable- they don't have al ot of athletic margin for error. Having E Williams play more today was a good sign, but those minutes effectively came at the expense of minutes for Greg, who did not have good match-ups.

All in all, a great win. We are going to need Gerald to play like this consistently if we want to make a deep run in March.

Duvall

01-10-2009, 04:55 PM

FireOgilvie

01-10-2009, 04:57 PM

FerryFor50

01-10-2009, 05:00 PM

My favorite moment was when Bilas said near the end of the game, after a turnover from a non-called foul:

"The refs can't call EVERY slap foul."

Uh, YES THEY CAN. And they should. You can't let a team just hack their way into a comeback like they did today.

roywhite

01-10-2009, 05:06 PM

Florida State is really good. I was impressed. They aren't great on offense, but if they can hit ANYTHING, they can be a top team. They really use their size and athleticism to their advantage on defense in stopping the drive.

No doubt FSU has loaded up on long, athletic players who can play good defense. But they've done so at the expense of players who shoot and pass well.

They are definitely tough to play against, particularly if they get some slack from the refs on grabbing and slapping.

Duvall

01-10-2009, 05:08 PM

They are definitely tough to play against, particularly if they get some slack from the refs on grabbing and slapping.

Yeah, that was surprising. You usually only see those kind of calls during a magical Carolina comeback.

bird

01-10-2009, 05:10 PM

OK, this was a weird game.

FL St. was 22 of 71 field goal shooting.

Duke only attempted 42 field goals -- twenty nine fewer shots than FL St. And won pretty comfortably, if you put late foul shooting to one side.

K went small, reducing Z's minutes in favor of Thomas and McClure. That's classic K - defend against bigger teams by disrupting the passing lanes and denying the entry pass. But we had only 6 steals and FL State a very respectable 14 turnovers. Meanwhile, we were getting outrebounded 28-40, with Fl State getting twenty one offensive rebounds.

OK guys, just how did we win this?

CameronBlue

01-10-2009, 05:11 PM

First of all, I hope someone gives FSU credit for playing really good D and really tough for most of the game. A game is never just all about us.

I will and defend FSU from the "thuggish" play comment above. FSU is the first team I've seen this year to match Duke's intensity on defense. The game WAS rough, perhaps too rough, but it wasn't FSU's fault. They played their own version of Duke defense, challenging passes from the point, cutting off the passing and driving lanes, crashing the boards and using their height/size advantage to dominate the offensive glass. Their defensive game plan was well conceived. If the game resembled a Civil War era field hospital--bodies everywhere--it was the refs who established the tone. This game was a good game for Duke to be involved with in preparation for March.

HateCarolina

01-10-2009, 05:12 PM

I definitely think these last two games, in which Duke notched a double-digit win against a tournament-bound Davidson squad, and an eight-point ACC road win against an FSU team that lost to #1 Pitt by the same margin, are cause for real concern.

I am assuming this is being said with sarcasm?

While we did look pretty rough towards the end of the game I think it shows our toughness to work through it and still pick up the W. G played like how I hoped he would have already been playing all year. Hopefully this was the preview to many more great games for him. I do have to say that the officiating in this game was bad on both sides....I think we got some out of bounds call and non-walk calls in our favor, but Singleton for FSU looks like a nice thug player that will be out to play rough until he gets called for it. The way I look at it is that maybe they can beat up on Hansblow when they meet up against Carolina....

Devil07

01-10-2009, 05:15 PM

I understand some of the griping, but I thought all things considered this was a solid win. The refs were letting FSU play their style (since when is a reach around slap not a foul?) and they always get up at home. Good teams win games like these when things aren't going right and so I'm pleased.

My only two real ongoing concerns are the lack of a killer instinct and the minutes that Scheyer and Singler are playing. I know we won't blow ACC teams out on the road, but we need to keep things in the more comfortable margin once we get it there so that we can rest our starters. And at least in regards to Scheyer, we need quality minutes from Paulus. I'm comfortable with Scheyer running the offense when Nolan's out, but I worry about what it will do to him over the course of a season.

Abraxas

01-10-2009, 05:17 PM

Duke was bothered by the tall FSU team. Our best weapon against "height" is quickness and athleticism. This is when G can shine the best... Fortunately for Duke, he had a good game.

I can foresee that Wake will give us the same problem than FSU, but they are definitely much better than FSU. The Adjusted Offensive production of FSU is at the bottom for the conference (Kenpom.com). Wake is much better. We will need to take better care of the ball. http://kenpom.com/conf.php?y=2009&c=ACC&t=p

roywhite

01-10-2009, 05:24 PM

If we hit FT's better late in the game, we win this by 15-16 points and it feels different.

But it's a good win on the road against a tenacious FSU team. And let's celebrate the game Gerald Henderson had. He was sensational.

CameronBlue

01-10-2009, 05:30 PM

I understand some of the griping, but I thought all things considered this was a solid win. The refs were letting FSU play their style (since when is a reach around slap not a foul?).

(When Jackie Manuel does it to Daniel Ewing in the 2005 comeback at Chapel Hill, completely bogus play)

Actually it's pretty easy--when you execute it without touching the ball handler. It's not "automatically" a foul and shouldn't be. The forward momentum of the ball handler makes it possible. At the point of contact the offensive player's hand is usually on top of the ball exposing at least the bottom 3/4 of the ball and the ball is usually at the highest point of the dribble. To make the maneuver completely impossible the ball handler merely needs to stutter step slightly as he drives past the defender. It throws off the defender's timing and the ball handler's butt becomes an obstacle.

Uh, provided that's the type of "reach around" you are referring to...the other kind is definitely a foul.

Cell-R

01-10-2009, 05:32 PM

Now, i've only been keeping track of college basketball for the past two or three years. In those two or three years I can't remember a time when ESPN or any other sports station reran a REBOUND and spent so much time talking about it! Gerald Henderson is truly an athlete in the highest sense of the word. His head was at rim-level for a rebound! Just think... If everybody on our team could do that...
:D

While i'm still thinking about the game, I really don't see why so many Duke fans dislike Jay Bilas. He is a good announcer who calls it as he sees it. You can tell he still has love for Duke if you listen for it.

Lavabe

01-10-2009, 05:34 PM

It's that one moron sitting behind the announcers, every game. The guy is more concerned with Paulus than his own team. You could hear everything he said -- pathetic.

I agree. You could hear everything he said, but it made it difficult to hear what Patrick and Bilas were saying.

Could not the folks at ESPN have done something?

Also, going into a commercial one shot of the fans gave the viewer a very easy lesson as to how to read lips.

Cheers,
Lavabe

devildownunder

01-10-2009, 05:35 PM

The espn.com box score states that Nolan Smith had 1 assist and 7 turnovers. I have not yet watched this game. Was that as hard to watch as it was to read? Considering that we had a 46-21 lead at once point, I have to assume a bunch of those turnovers came down the stretch as FSU made its run. Was that the case?

FireOgilvie

01-10-2009, 05:36 PM

While i'm still thinking about the game, I really don't see why so many Duke fans dislike Jay Bilas. He is a good announcer who calls it as he sees it. You can tell he still has love for Duke if you listen for it.

I thought he did a good job with this game. I usually don't like him. He never gives Duke the benefit of the doubt. In fact, most of the time he'll go out of his way to go against Duke.

BlueintheFace

01-10-2009, 05:44 PM

I love the win. An ACC road win is always a very good win, especially in physical games such as this one. We kept our emotions in check, played hard, and broke the game open with defense. Great job boys!!

However, I am becoming more and more concerned about Nolan. The tougher these games get, the worse he plays on offense. He has only tried his hand at penetrating in the half court set once or twice in the last 5 games, and he has not proven to be a very reliable or good passer in the half court sets (2.3 assists/gm to 1.9 to/gm)

Meanwhile, Greg Paulus' minutes are dwindling along with his confidence. His three point shooting is way down and that is how he needs to earn his minutes.

The truth of the matter is, Nolan has made us a much much better defensive team, but I have missed Paulus in the half court offensive sets more than I thought. He really does have better vision and takes care of the ball better and the main advantage we thought we'd get from Nolan (penetration) is almost non-existent.

beltwayBD

01-10-2009, 05:48 PM

Observations:

1. These guys are still thugs, but at least Reid didn't try to punch anyone this round (and he finished with zero points). We got a few calls, but they definitely got a bunch of calls in the latter part of the 2nd half.

2. I was actually impressed with Elliot Williams' minutes this game -- didn't show up in the stats, but he was a aggressive and solid on defense. But overall K has shrunk the rotation since the New Year has begun. As always, I'd like to see some more of Marty and Miles. If we are up by more than 40, I'd like to see Olek get some minutes! High quality minutes from Lance and Dave off the bench as well.

3. I can't wait until Greg is healthy again. We could really use his perimeter shot. And a little more dexterity wouldn't hurt, which I expect to return after his fingers are healthy.

4. Wonderful job by G! His confidence and rhythm are clearly back. Let's see more of this.

5. Our penchant for falling asleep after we get up by 20+ points is a bit worrisome, but at least we wake up and some point and win! That's the important thing.

6. A win against a very tall, very physical team, on their home court. I'll take it!

Saratoga2

01-10-2009, 05:48 PM

FSU is a very big, athletic and very aggressive team. They played hard and made it very difficult to score in the first half. The good news is that they are turnover prone and got very few good shots, even missing most of those. Beating them on their floor was a good win.

Henderson played his best game overall for Duke. We see what he can do, even against very heavy pressure. The rest of the team was bothered by the pressure, but each starter has somee good minutes. Zoubek was probably the least effective, but he still adds to the team play when in. Clearly, Coach IK wanted a smaller and experienced team on the floor to avoid the collapse that nealy happened anyway. Near the end, we shot free throws like a very tired team. Lots of first shots off the front rim.

Sometimes a very long player can wrap around and knock the baall away. I didn't think most of those were FSU fouls as some have contended. I do think there were two fouls made on Scheyer when he can up the floor and lost the ball. The first was a hack and bump and the second, the player actually hit of grabbed Scheyer from behind and that caused the ball to come out. Just a missed call from the refs. and not that the refs can't call every slap.

We also saw Williams really get the nod over Paulus a couple of times. He is quicker and more athletic and also has the size advantage. You could say that Paulus has the experience edge, but the experience didn't show for Paulus when he was in the game.

I disagree with Jumbo that Scheyer played his worst game of the year if he means it was a bad game. He helped stabilize our point for part of the game and still has a nose for the game.

mgtr

01-10-2009, 05:51 PM

I started laughing at one point in the game, and my wife thought I was nuts. The problem was that G made yet another great play, and I couldn't get the Mighty Mouse song out of my mind, "Here he comes to save the day." Thats our boy, Hendo.

roywhite

01-10-2009, 05:54 PM

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=3643316

Some ugly numbers:
6 assists/ 17 turnovers
other than Henderson, Singler, Smith---only 1 FG.

But Duke defended well, got to the line more frequently than FSU, and Gerald Henderson was terrific.

Cameron

01-10-2009, 06:07 PM

The truth of the matter is, Nolan has made us a much much better defensive team, but I have missed Paulus in the half court offensive sets more than I thought. He really does have better vision and takes care of the ball better and the main advantage we thought we'd get from Nolan (penetration) is almost non-existent.

I agree. I miss seeing Greg's ability to lead this team like he did a season ago, when he was torching the ACC and the country with great stability at the point (leading the greatest conference in basketball in assist to turnover ratio), tremendous vision in finding teammates, and stroking the deep ball. IMO, Greg's talent is going to waste.

I know, I know. When Greg gets in what does he show? He looks lost, etc.

When a player doesn't get in the game until the 10 minute mark of the first half, however, and then only has two to three minutes at best to get it going, he's not going to get too hot. Coming in cold off the bench in short intervals is exactly one of the factors that played into Taylor King's (aka King Taylor ... sigh) demise. Bottom line, it is very hard to play well when you come in off the bench late and play two minute stretches.

IMO, Greg's disappointment in playing time has probably really hurt his confidence level. And, on top of that, Greg looks like he's trying to do everything he did last season within those short two minute frames in order to increase his PT -- which is only causing him to play pressed.

When I got home from the Va Tech game I turned the game on the DVR and, as usual, recorded it over onto a VHS tape. While doing so, I heard Mike Gminski saying the same things. He noted that Paulus was just trying to do too much in order to try and stay on the floor longer -- since he knows his minutes are at a premium.

What needs to change is Greg playing a more consistent rate of minutes. The only great thing I see about the situation right now is how well Greg seems to be taking it. He doesn't pout, sulk, or want any less for his teammates. He cheers harder than anyone and still leads this club, only this year it's from the sideline more often than not. That's why he is a winner. He's a true Duke kid.

I know that Nolan's defense is a must, but Greg's demise will hurt us at some point. He can't continue to play six, seven minutes a night, in sporadic segments. At some point, we are going to need that true point guard type of leadership. (And before the defensive liability issue comes up, Greg has most definitely increased his power to defend. He's scrappy and plays with a ton of intensity. In the half court, he can defend pretty well.)

heyman25

01-10-2009, 06:14 PM

A very UGLY win.
Paulus missed a easy layup and when he is in the game he dribbles way too much.His 3 point shot has not been so accurate. Nolan plays great in spurts and then makes bonehead plays. Singler and Scheyer were not very sharp today. Gerald had a great game, but this should be where his game should be.I hope he can stay consistent the rest of the season. There is no reason he should not be averaging 20 points a game.Zoubek did not get enough time.He was not bad. Thomas is good on defense, but needs more upper body strength and finish whether he is fouled or not.I don't think Pocius and Plumlee would have added anything. Williams should be a lot better than he is playing, but makes decent contributions.It was about a C- game. Florida State played good defense,but like the Davidson game we can not hold a lead like we should. Terrible fre throw shooting. 1st half was the worst rebounding and loose ball hustle of the season.

mapei

01-10-2009, 06:40 PM

I thought Greg was just awful against Davidson. What's happening to him is painful to watch - but I can see K wanting to keep his minutes limited until he gets his act together.

bjornolf

01-10-2009, 06:46 PM

I'm not sure that at one point there weren't more held balls than assists. Now THAT'S some insane physicality and defense! :eek:

Also, is it just me, or there at the end, did Sheyer get slapped in the face, THEN had the ball stolen, with no call? That was just insane. I know that the FSU fans were complaining about the refs, but they have NO recourse after that last 3 minutes!

Jumbo

01-10-2009, 06:47 PM

1. These guys are still thugs ...

FSU is not a bunch of "thugs." They played good, hard defense. We played good, hard defense. Would you like it if someone called Singler a "thug?" He plays consistently tough and intense, and is occasionally chippy. It was no different on the FSU side today.

Cameron

01-10-2009, 06:53 PM

What's happening to [Greg] is painful to watch - but I can see K wanting to keep his minutes limited until he gets his act together.

Greg's not going to be able to get his act together unless he is entrusted with some confidence and actual playing time -- not two minute, Taylor King-like stretches of "prove what you got." And certainly not after sitting cold on the bench for 15 minutes at a time.

JDev

01-10-2009, 06:56 PM

Strange game. It looked like Belmont from the tourney, in the sense that G took over, and was the best player on the floor and the difference in the game. The long droughts that Duke has suffered in each of the last two games need to be avoided, but the offense is evolving. While the offense is evolving, the defense is already outstanding.

mapei

01-10-2009, 06:57 PM

Greg's not going to be able to get his act together unless he is entrusted with some confidence and actual playing time -- not two minute, Taylor King-like stretches of "prove what you got." And certainly not after sitting cold on the bench for 15 minutes at a time.

I understand the argument; I just see both sides of it. And I think with K the burden of proof will be on Greg to earn back those minutes, either in practice or in games, before he gets them. Is that the right approach? I don't know.

Papa John

01-10-2009, 07:00 PM

FireOgilvie

01-10-2009, 07:00 PM

Greg's not going to be able to get his act together unless he is entrusted with some confidence and actual playing time -- not two minute, Taylor King-like stretches of "prove what you got." And certainly not after sitting cold on the bench for 15 minutes at a time.

Paulus averages 18 minutes a game. Nolan averages 22 minutes a game. I'll give Coach K the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Jumbo

01-10-2009, 07:03 PM

I agree. I miss seeing Greg's ability to lead this team like he did a season ago,
I never got the sense that Greg "led" the team last season. Was he a captain? (No.) Was he one of the best couple of players? (No.) I'm not sure last year's team had a clear leader, and this year's team -- with Jon, Kyle and even G -- has much more in the way of leadership.

when he was torching the ACC and the country with great stability at the point (leading the greatest conference in basketball in assist to turnover ratio),
"Torching" the ACC and the country? A/TO ratio is incredibly overrated. It favors guys who don't take chances.

tremendous vision in finding teammates, and stroking the deep ball.
I never saw that "tremendous vision, but yes, he was an excellent shooter last season.

IMO, Greg's talent is going to waste ...

I know, I know. When Greg gets in what does he show? He looks lost, etc.
You have the answer write there. Greg's talent is not going to waste. He's just not playing well.

When a player doesn't get in the game until the 10 minute mark of the first half, however, and then only has two to three minutes at best to get it going, he's not going to get too hot. Coming in cold off the bench in short intervals is exactly one of the factors that played into Taylor King's (aka King Taylor ... sigh) demise. Bottom line, it is very hard to play well when you come in off the bench late and play two minute stretches.

If Greg Paulus were playing well, he stints would last longer than two minutes at a time. In fact, for most of this year, even when he wasn't playing well, he stayed in longer. Everyone comes in off the bench cold. Didn't bother Scheyer last year. Doesn't bother McClure or Thomas this year. Only five players get to start the job on the court. If you're a good basketball player, you can get into the game and find your rhythm. And Greg didn't get pulled from today's game because of cold shooting. He got pulled because he handled the ball frantically and his defense continues not to be up to snuff on a team that is building an indentity as a defensive juggernaut. That's where the Taylor King comparision is applicable -- both guys saw their minutes dwindle because of D.

IMO, Greg's disappointment in playing time has probably really hurt his confidence level. And, on top of that, Greg looks like he's trying to do everything he did last season within those short two minute frames in order to increase his PT -- which is only causing him to play pressed.
I don't believe this is the case. If it is, he has to grow up. He can help this team in short bursts. Everyone else on this team has learned to accept various roles. Dave McClure can play 5 minutes, 15 minutes or 25 minutes and he still gives you the same effort on D, as a screener and on the boards. Greg needs to get his head in the game and stop thinking about the past. He has a little less than three months left as a college basketball player, and he has a chance to win a national title.

I know that Nolan's defense is a must, but Greg's demise will hurt us at some point. He can't continue to play six, seven minutes a night, in sporadic segments. At some point, we are going to need that true point guard type of leadership. (And before the defensive liability issue comes up, Greg has most definitely increased his power to defend. He's scrappy and plays with a ton of intensity. In the half court, he can defend pretty well.)

He's not playing six, seven minutes a night. This was the first game in which he's played single-digits all season, in fact. Yes, Nolan's defense is a must, and he's just a better player than Greg Paulus at this point. I completely disagree with your contention that Paulus has improved at the defensive end of the court, and I don't know what "scrappy" even means in this case. And as far as "point guard type of leadership" goes, I think Jon Scheyer gives us more of that than either Smith or Paulus.

Greg needs to knock down jump shots and accept his role. It's that simple.

Papa John

01-10-2009, 07:10 PM

FSU is not a bunch of "thugs." They played good, hard defense. We played good, hard defense. Would you like it if someone called Singler a "thug?" He plays consistently tough and intense, and is occasionally chippy. It was no different on the FSU side today.

Agree to an extent... They're playing hard defense, and it isn't their fault that the officials are not calling the game evenly. That is where I think the folks complaining have a point. I felt that toward the middle of the second half the zebras began calling chippy fouls on us while still allowing FSU to muscle quite a bit... That just ain't fair. Of course, I also thought our guys did a nice job of holding it together and adjusting to the situation, and to be honest, I think a game like this ends up being a plus in the grand scheme of things from both a learning and confidence standpoint.

-bdbd

01-10-2009, 07:12 PM

I have to agree with Jumbo -- FSU played hard, physical defense. As loose as the refs were calling this game, it would have been insane for FSU to alter course. As Bilas pointed out, FSU wins with their "length" (only one player under 6'-7" in starting lineup), and size, and hard physical D. This is a team, if they mature some, that could make a little noise come March, esp. if they have loose-calling refs like tonight. They are not a bad team at all - as some here seem to want to believe. (I really want to see them go up against Kerlina with that physicality - will be interesting to see how Hans-travel reacts to some of his own medicine.) :eek:

Though it wasn't pretty, I'll take an (ACC) win any day! I don't think GT on Wed. will be as tough as FSU was tonight, hopefully, and then we're out of conference for an entertaining Hoyas game (come'on Crazies - have a very special welcome for our near-miss recruit, Greg Monroe, who is having a great rookie season !!).

We DO get spoiled a bit at Duke, but our season's start to date has been very good overall, we're ranked number 2, we're generally healthy, and Kerlina lost at home to BC - so not a bad season so far! Assuming we can get by Wake and MD later this month, we have a favorable schedule that has us looking pretty good until Feb 4th and the start of a challenging stretch - Clemson, Mia, and UNC-ch. Let's hope GH continues this very solid assertiveness and KS's stamina returns soon. (And I might add Zoubs continues to develop confidence -- we're going to need him in March.)

Cheers!

BDBD

:cool:

Diddy

01-10-2009, 07:13 PM

That is the Gerald I expected to see more of this year. Whew. Jay Bilas really said best when he said that Gerald is starting to "get it." Right now, Jon "gets it" more than anyone on the team, with Kyle right behind him. Kyle has a few more natural physical gifts, making him a slightly better player. But if a freak athlete like Gerald starts to put it all together Duke gets tough to beat. In the first half, no one else was hitting anything, and Jon had one of his worst shooting games of the year. That will be a rare occurence, as will Kyle's first half play. If G brings it in other games like he brought it today, when some other players will also play better, Duke is a hard out for anybody.

Today we saw a Gerald who can be the NBA ROY next year. His total package is very good. When he is hitting from outside, lookout. Not that I would mind seeing G in the pros, becuase a steady dose of play like today will see Duke playing late into March and early April.

That Dunk is up there with Grant's vs Michigan, and Corey's vs Florida. Yikes. Also, it should've been And 1 cause he got fouled. I think the ref was so shocked that he swallowed his whistle.

Overall, I am glad to see Duke win a game like this. Our O will be a work in progress all year, unless we get more consistent from the perimeter. With D like this, we can beat almost anybody. Today's O won't beat UNC, but UNC's D will not even be half as good as what we say today.

And yes, it was a rough game. But Duke gave as good as they got, and won, which I am proud of and happy about. When you think about it, this FSU team is exactly the type that has spelled Doom for Duke in recent years. We have to give credit to a great Defensive effort by FSU. They maybe got away with a few reaches, but their effort and execution on D must be acknowledged. A great effort from a very talented team.

This FSU team can make the NCAAs, but they will have to score a few wins against the upper tier of the conference for that to happen.

Wander

01-10-2009, 07:18 PM

That said... Do we play some viciously amazing defense or what?

We might have the best defense in the country. Maybe.

Also, playing like crap and still winning is the sign of a very good team.

dukemsu

01-10-2009, 07:19 PM

I too wonder what's going on with Greg, and I think a large factor into his lack of playing time must have something to do with what we all never see: practice.

Seriously, for a player to go from such a key role to such a limited role, he must not be performing in practice either. There is far more time put in on the practice floor than in-game situations. K and the staff must not be liking what they are seeing.

I hope he gets it together. He can be a major plus if he grows into the bench role. But it takes a certain type of attitude and mindset to excel in limited minutes. Greg has probably started his entire life in every situation and in every sport. This situation has to be really hard on him.

Let's all hope for the best.

dukemsu

dw0827

01-10-2009, 07:23 PM

It's been awhile since I've seen us struggle so much simply getting the ball past half court. With all the guys on our team who can handle the ball, I would expect us to perform better against the full court pressing that we saw today.

Almost like they weren't prepared for it.

I bet I know what they're going to be working on in practice . . .

dukemsu

01-10-2009, 07:26 PM

We might have the best defense in the country. Maybe.

Also, playing like crap and still winning is the sign of a very good team.

Duke is right there. Purdue is also an exceptional defensive team, but you saw what Duke did to Purdue.

Those are the two best defensive teams I've seen so far.

dukemsu

Cameron

01-10-2009, 07:31 PM

I never got the sense that Greg "led" the team last season. Was he a captain? (No.) Was he one of the best couple of players? (No.) I'm not sure last year's team had a clear leader, and this year's team -- with Jon, Kyle and even G -- has much more in the way of leadership.

There is no doubt in my mind that Greg was our go to offensive spark many times last season -- both as a shooter and a leader with the ball in his hands. Look at the NC State game in Cameron, the game in Chapel Hill versus Carolina, etc. Greg's role out front leading the team, especially vocally, a season ago was a major reason why we won 28 games. There is not one thing you could say that could change my mind in my belief that Greg was often the leader behind our offense's great flow a year ago (something that has been lacking great at times this season for our team).

He can help this team in short bursts. Everyone else on this team has learned to accept various roles. Dave McClure can play 5 minutes, 15 minutes or 25 minutes and he still gives you the same effort on D, as a screener and on the boards.

To be fair, I don't think we should be comparing Dave McClure's short stretches with Greg Paulus', especially since, by your own words, Greg's role is a jump shooter. It doesn't take great flow to rebound or defend. Those are traits similar to dunking or dribbling. You are either great at them or you are not. Shooting, on the other hand, can most definitely become a mental game. Even the best of shooters can be bothered by long stretches of sitting cold on the bench, being forced to hit quick in minimal stretches of PT, and by a growing lack of confidence (which I definitely think is the case with Greg.)

We've all seen this with JJ and the Orlando Magic before. When a shooter is forced to play the "show us what you got in a minute" game, it can be tough to overcome and to actually play with a natural flow. Shooters will often times press and try to overshoot. Mike Gminski had it right, IMO. Greg knows his minutes have been reduced to little more than "prove it now," and he (Paulus) is trying to prove way too much, and thus his play has decreased.

Obviously, Greg's early season injuries are also playing some part in his current drought. But, I just think he needs more consistent court time in order to get back to where he was, in order to get that level of belief in himself he once had. He's a human being, just like the rest of us. He's not just a Duke machine. His dwindling/sporadic playing time is obviously affecting his play.

You have the answer write there. Greg's talent is not going to waste. He's just not playing well.

And I believe the "write" you were looking for is "right." I know, I know, I just wanted to correct one more thing in what was an otherwise very good response :) -- not that I totally agree with it, but it was well thought out, as usual.

mike88

01-10-2009, 07:38 PM

Diddy

01-10-2009, 07:41 PM

Jumbo had the post of the year (season wise, not calender wise) to date. (Although, didn't the board use to Ban posters who basically said the same thing about Greg? Seriously.)

We are absolutely building an identity as one of the premier defensive teams in the country. I cannot really remember our D ever being this good. Maybe 92, and maybe 01. Maybe. And maybe, I am remembering the fantastic play of some super atheletes. GHill was great, and Shane and Nate Dog were stoppers. Overall, this team may be better, because there is not one player who you look at and say "that is clearly the best Defender in the Conf if not Nation." Jon, Kyle, G, and Nolan (in no partic order) are all stellar defenders, and McClure, Lance, and E-will would be stoppers on lots of teams. Even Zoubs is a goer.

Sadly for Greg, without an eraser down low (which he largely had as a frosh and soph) he is a shatterpoint on D. When he is in, I notice that everybody but Z keeps an eye on Greg's guy, ready to slouch off to help out. It adversely affects the entire D.

As Jumbo said, if he would knock down some threes, it would be all good in the hood, but he isn't.

I have to give E-Will credit for the best he has played. He took an open shot, which he missed, but he has to be willing to pull the trigger. And his D was great today. He seamlessly fit in. With Jon and Kyle capable of running the O, E-will may start Snaking some of Greg's minutes if Greg doesn't start hitting.

While today's O was horrendous, and it was bad, I am not worried about that against top teams (outside of Pitt). Sure, Lance needs to be ready to receive passes, and Dave must learn not to dribble against quality Defenders.

But, who among Wake, UNC, and (maybe) Clemson can play that type of D? No one. Wake could, but they are young and in love with scoring, and their D hasn't been great so far. Tomorrow will tell with them. And UNC? Please. They will not play D anywhere near the level of FSU. Scoring on UNC won't be a problem. And Clemson is usually pretty tough, but that was some of the best D Duke has ever faced today. While I don't like it, the refs allowed a lot of the stuff we usually have trouble with in March.

Also, the liklihood of Jon and Kyle both having badish games at the same time is unlikely. As for Jon, his lower production could be a result of him having to assume more team running Duties as Paulus continues to unimpress.

MChambers

01-10-2009, 07:46 PM

To be fair, I don't think we should be comparing Dave McClure's short stretches with Greg Paulus', especially since, by your own words, Greg's role is a jump shooter. It doesn't take great flow to rebound or defend. Those are traits similar to dunking or dribbling. You are either great at them or you are not. Shooting, on the other hand, can most definitely become a mental game. Even the best of shooters can be bothered by long stretches of sitting cold on the bench, being forced to hit quick in minimal stretches of PT, and by a growing lack of confidence (which I definitely think is the case with Greg.)

We've all seen this with JJ and the Orlando Magic before. When a shooter is forced to play the "show us what you got in a minute" game, it can be tough to overcome and to actually play with a natural flow. Shooters will often times press and try to overshoot.

This sounds intuitively correct, but there are lots of shooters who have made careers being spot players. Think Steve Kerr, for example. I wonder if there is any empirical support for the point you are making?

FireOgilvie

01-10-2009, 07:53 PM

Surfsideron

01-10-2009, 08:05 PM

First of all, I hope someone gives FSU credit for playing really good D and really tough for most of the game. A game is never just all about us.

-Our steadiest player (Scheyer) putting forth his worst all-around performance of the season.
-Zoubek turning into a non-factor finally playing against someone his size (he has to work harder off the ball).
-Singler's pedestrian, foul-plagued performance.

First you say let's give some credit to FSU's defense, which is one of the better in the ACC, then you turn around and slam some of our guys.

FSU played very tough D and when you do that, the other guy doesn't do well........that's what our guys do to the opponents!

Zoubek was probably taken out because K realized a smaller, quicker lineup could run all the FSU giants into the ground which is why we went from a 19-14 lead to a 44-19 lead.
Singler was the only big guy we had in there most of the second half........he probably was tired but he still hit a couple of big 3's and rebounded his miss and put it back. Pedestrian? I think not.

Nolan didn't have a great game but this was the best defense Duke has played against this year, by far. FSU was in Duke's shirts most of the first 25-30 minutes of the game. Tough defense causes turnovers....see Duke defense for examples.

Tough, tough game in a place where some highly rated Duke teams have been upset. All in all, I think this was a good win.

ps: I wish they would close the deal however!

Devilsfan

01-10-2009, 08:09 PM

I don't know which was ughlier, the offense the first half or Bev Perdue's innagural red dress.
Also look who was in the game at the end on the front court. Dave/Lance and Kyle. That's who K is going to when the games on the line. No Zoub and certainly no Plumlee. Finally G actually showed up today! I've been waiting for 2 1/2 seasons to see him play like he is capable of playing. Nice job G.

SMO

01-10-2009, 08:10 PM

Greg's not going to be able to get his act together unless he is entrusted with some confidence and actual playing time -- not two minute, Taylor King-like stretches of "prove what you got." And certainly not after sitting cold on the bench for 15 minutes at a time.

In essence, it seems you're saying that if a guy doesn't play well in limited minutes Coach K should play him more. That way he'll gain confidence and play better. Doesn't that logic seem backward?

DukieInBrasil

01-10-2009, 08:20 PM

SMO

01-10-2009, 08:27 PM

G and Kyle scored 60% of our points, which is good and bad. Good that two guys we really rely on were able to step up and do what we needed. Bad that there wasn´t much else going on.

I think it's more good than bad in the grand scheme of things. A strength of this team is that there could be any number of 2, 3, or 4 man combinations that could put up 60% of the team's total points. I don't think we need to get worried about becoming overly depending on 1-2 guys. Wasn't it last year's game at FSU where Scheyer carried the team much like G did today?

COYS

01-10-2009, 08:39 PM

Honestly, the bad offense doesn't bother me as much as it bothers many others on the board. Our defense has been exceptional. If we turned the ball over a little less and limited points off TO's for the 'Noles this one would have been very comfortable at the end. If we hit a few more from the charity stripe, it's blowout territory. Our offense naturally struggled in a game where we faced one of the biggest teams in all of college basketball and the refs really let them play. That said, we didn't get discouraged by all the missed shots, put our heads down, and made sure they didn't get any easy shots, either. Considering that some very good Duke teams have lost in Tallahassee recently, I'll take this game, especially since it was more or less in hand for the entire second half. We won this game with outstanding defense. I'm more than happy to rest on our defense when our offense isn't working, especially on the road in the ACC against a very intense defense when the refs are allowing physical play.

Bob Green

01-10-2009, 08:49 PM

However, I am becoming more and more concerned about Nolan. The tougher these games get, the worse he plays on offense. He has only tried his hand at penetrating in the half court set once or twice in the last 5 games, and he has not proven to be a very reliable or good passer in the half court sets (2.3 assists/gm to 1.9 to/gm)

I couldn't disagree more. Nolan Smith attacked the rim today, he was six for six from the free throw line and he got to the line by driving. Yes, he was careless with the ball today at times but his speed, on both ends of the floor, makes us a much better team.

Billy Dat

01-10-2009, 09:27 PM

-First, I agree with Bob's prior post about Nolan. Along with G, I was thinking "if Nolan plays like this, we go to the next level" during the second half run when we push out to the big lead. He was flying around and really putting offensive pressure on FSU. The way he closed tarnished that a bit, but I really only wanted Paulus on the floor in substitutions at the end for free throw shooting. I really like Paulus but he is playing as much as he should be right now, imo.

-The way Florida State protected the rim for the first 25 minutes of the game was insane - what intensity! In fact, the first half was as intense as we've experienced in a while. I think that's what led to the missed free throws and turnovers down the stretch - we were whipped, but the intensity of the game was why.

-I really think that K's experience with Team USA has shown what an advantage athleticism is for the style of play that he prefers. This is nothing new, he's always recruited elite athletes, but he spent 3 summers coaching a team with an insane athletic advantage over its competition and tailored his schemes to exploit that advantage. I think that mentality has carried over and EWill, Lance and McClure got the lion's share of the bench minutes today. It will be an interesting trend to watch, especially EWill vs Paulus as others have mentioned.

-Not sure why this made such an impression on me today, but McClure continues to impress me with his overall play, especially his athleticism. He really gets up for some boards, blocks, etc. I love that kid, he really represents what Duke is all about...commitment, effort, intensity, being part of something bigger then yourself (no matter how big your part is to the outside world). I really like the way he played today.

Bob Green

01-10-2009, 09:34 PM

Jumbo had the post of the year (season wise, not calender wise) to date. (Although, didn't the board use to Ban posters who basically said the same thing about Greg? Seriously.)

No!!! The board has never banned posters for making reasoned posts that contain criticisms. The board bans posters for making flaming personal attacks on players. There is a big difference between the two scenarios.

Diddy

01-10-2009, 09:36 PM

2 observations:
We held our secoind consecutive ACC opponent to less than 15 pts in a half. Down side: we scored less than 20 in that same half.
Someone else mentioned that aside from Kyle, G and Nolan we had 1 FG (Scheyer), well i would like to extend that: aside from those 4 mentioned, we scored 5 pts, only 3 from the bench on 3-8 FT, all in all not good. Still despite several other very ugly stats our boys pulled out a solid road win in conference play. I´ll take every one of em that we get.
etc...
G and Kyle scored 60% of our points, which is good and bad. Good that two guys we really rely on were able to step up and do what we needed. Bad that there wasn´t much else going on.
Nolan scored 12, despite the horrible, horrible 7 turn-overs, which i think shows that the knee is no longer bothering him. Hopefully in the next game he will reverse his a/to and go bonkers with 7 assists!!!

With regards to Nolan, several of his turnovers came on those reach arounds slaps that SHOULD have been fouls. Only a few of his turnovers were the result of bad decisions, which I can live with. If refs had been calling those slaps, he would have had 4 or fewer TOs, and a bunch more FTs, and we would be talking about him having a great game. There is not much that primary ball handlers can do when the refs essentially let the defender knock you away from the ball.

ncexnyc

01-10-2009, 09:51 PM

Several issues with today's game.

1. While we have depth, we're not getting much offensive production off the bench.

2. Where's that killer instinct? Another large lead was whittled down and gave me way, way to much cause for concern.

3. Are we headed for another season of Kyle playing big minutes as our big man? Brian and Lance have to contribute more otherwise we are in trouble.

4. Can Nolan learn that the most important job of the PG is to not turn the ball over?

I am also curious why Duke didn't press FSU. It worked wonders for Clemson and I really thought we would try it.

In closing an ugly win, but then they don't give style points so I'll take it.

Bob Green

01-10-2009, 09:55 PM

I am also curious why Duke didn't press FSU. It worked wonders for Clemson and I really thought we would try it.

We ran a trapping press in the second half and it worked wonders for us as well. The press was instrumental in building the 25 point lead.

Newton_14

01-10-2009, 09:56 PM

This was a solid win against the biggest team in the country. Great time for Gerald to have his best game of the year. I too think FSU played great hard nosed defense. The only thug was the fan heckling into the mike the entire game rather than pulling for his team.

While I do not like giving up big leads, you still have to be impressed with the ability to get a 26 point lead on a team that plays that good of defense in a game when your offense is no where near clicking on all cylinders. Imagine what this team can be if they get the offense flowing as it should for an entire game...

As for Greg, I think he is still not 100% healthy and it's impacting him. More minutes today would not have fixed that it would only have made it worse. On the flip side it allowed Eliot to get key minutes in a tough environment and he responded well.

The best thing about this team to me is the fact they are beating good teams at home, on the road and at neutral sites and they have not begun to play their best ball yet. They are very much still building, growing, and the ceiling is high. I am excited about the prospects of the season...

DukeDevilDeb

01-10-2009, 10:11 PM

Everyone is talking about the lack of accurate shooting, the poor free throw performance, etc. Has it occurred to anyone that these guys are really tired? This is the third game in 6 days...Virginia Tech on the 4th; Davidson on the 7th; FSU on the 10th. And all of them were physically demanding games, especially today's! I thought it was evident down the stretch that Kyle and Jon were REALLY tired because their misses were going off the front of the rim. That isn't bad shooting; it is a total lack of energy. So this three-game stretch will teach the guys how to manage their time. Remember, they also started classes this week after being 3.5 weeks without that demand. I'm getting tired just writing about it!

That said, Gerald was absolutely incredible. This is the game he can play nearly every night as he matures, and that will be a huge help for us. I understood perfectly why Coach took Zoubek out, and all we had to do was look at the scoreboard after the first 5-10 minutes of the second half to see that going short and fast was working.

In my mind, Jon is the steadiest player, and his defense has become excellent. But no matter how good a shooter you are, you have to have energy to propel the ball... can you imagine fighting that big FSU lineup and NOT being tired.

Nolan is, hands down, a great defender. But I was ready to run out on the court (and I was in Durham! :D) to shake him when he made a series of thoughtless plays in the second half. That's exactly what they were... plays without thought. The spin move that got him a foul was one example. I think in a year, we don't see that. Actually, I'm praying we never see it again.

The guys get to come home, take the day away from basketball tomorrow and do the homework they have missed, and get ready for an away game against Georgia Tech. I, for one, am extraordinarily pleased by and proud of this group. With all the build up of the invincible Tar Heels, who would have thought that we would be #2 in the country while they are #3? Not I. But I think it is essential that we give these guys incredible support. They have a long, hard ACC season ahead of them, and if we hope to get back to the 91-94 or 98-2002 levels of play, they are very much going to need their 6th person!

Go Devils!

gep

01-10-2009, 11:07 PM

I liked 3 quotes from the announcers today...

1. Bilas... with all of the tie-ups, Jay said that the scorekeeper will get carpal tunnel syndrome constantly changing the arrow...

2. Patrick... when they showed Gerald's monster rebound... at or above the rim, Mike said that he is afraid of getting that high even if he's on a step ladder...

3. Bilas... said that when he played for Coach K 20+ years ago, Coach's hair looked just like it does now... while Jay's hair is thinning, gray, etc...

Also, I don't think I heard much, if any, mention of Hansblah or UNC during the game...

And both Bilas and Patrick really didn't stray from the game... I enjoyed them.

Patrick completely gushed over Coach K's picture with the gold medals...

Great game today.

Duke76

01-10-2009, 11:19 PM

Duke's getting out rebounded because they aren't putting a body on the big guys from FS....they are going right over Duke because Duke's not boxing out...it's not that hard just find your man and get your butt into them

Zoubek doesn't deserve to play when he doesn't move his feet, find his guy and box out. I also wanted to throw my shoe through the tv when he was at top of the key guarding the 7'1" guy.

CameronBlue

01-11-2009, 12:11 AM

I couldn't disagree more. Nolan Smith attacked the rim today, he was six for six from the free throw line and he got to the line by driving. Yes, he was careless with the ball today at times but his speed, on both ends of the floor, makes us a much better team.

There was an extended stretch in the first half when neither of Duke's point guards were on the floor, Paulus or Smith, from the 6:30 mark to 2:26. That's the first time this season I can recall that happening which puzzled me at first. In Smith's case I think it was to give him a better look at the game precisely because he wasn't attacking the basket, long a trademark of K's teams. That aggression you note seemed far more prevalent in the 2nd half than the first (0 points at halftime). Whether it makes Duke a better team--and I believe it does, or more importantly K believes it--that's what Duke's point guards are going to do if they want to be included in the rotation. I think that's also the main reason that Paulus has now been relegated to a backup pg role. Given the choice between a 3 point artist and and a point guard who can apply on the ball pressure on defense and penetrate the defense off the dribble on offense, it's no contest. And it had to be a tough decision for K because contrary to what has been posted in this thread, Paulus WAS a leader of last year's Duke team. He may have been an inconsistent leader but he was a leader. No one could look at a replay of last year's game in Chapel Hill and come to any other sensible conclusion.

Oriole Way

01-11-2009, 12:39 AM

I agree. I miss seeing Greg's ability to lead this team like he did a season ago, when he was torching the ACC and the country with great stability at the point (leading the greatest conference in basketball in assist to turnover ratio), tremendous vision in finding teammates, and stroking the deep ball. IMO, Greg's talent is going to waste.

I know, I know. When Greg gets in what does he show? He looks lost, etc.

When a player doesn't get in the game until the 10 minute mark of the first half, however, and then only has two to three minutes at best to get it going, he's not going to get too hot. Coming in cold off the bench in short intervals is exactly one of the factors that played into Taylor King's (aka King Taylor ... sigh) demise. Bottom line, it is very hard to play well when you come in off the bench late and play two minute stretches.

IMO, Greg's disappointment in playing time has probably really hurt his confidence level. And, on top of that, Greg looks like he's trying to do everything he did last season within those short two minute frames in order to increase his PT -- which is only causing him to play pressed.

When I got home from the Va Tech game I turned the game on the DVR and, as usual, recorded it over onto a VHS tape. While doing so, I heard Mike Gminski saying the same things. He noted that Paulus was just trying to do too much in order to try and stay on the floor longer -- since he knows his minutes are at a premium.

What needs to change is Greg playing a more consistent rate of minutes. The only great thing I see about the situation right now is how well Greg seems to be taking it. He doesn't pout, sulk, or want any less for his teammates. He cheers harder than anyone and still leads this club, only this year it's from the sideline more often than not. That's why he is a winner. He's a true Duke kid.

I know that Nolan's defense is a must, but Greg's demise will hurt us at some point. He can't continue to play six, seven minutes a night, in sporadic segments. At some point, we are going to need that true point guard type of leadership. (And before the defensive liability issue comes up, Greg has most definitely increased his power to defend. He's scrappy and plays with a ton of intensity. In the half court, he can defend pretty well.)

I really disagree with a vast majority of your post.

I will say that I completely agree that I miss last year's Greg Paulus, who was our best and most consistent outside shooter. However, that Paulus is long gone because of injuries, poor play, and a lack of confidence. It seems he is stuck in a vicious cycle where all three of those factors mix, but I suspect his injuries are the main culprit.

What I disagree with most is your assertion that Paulus needs more minutes. I actually think he needs less, because he's our worst player getting major minutes. I say "worst player" in the sense of his overall performance, and the liabilities he creates on both sides of the ball for this team. I think a healthy Greg would play better and deserve more minutes, but right now, he shouldn't be playing much.

I'm not sure you're paying attention to the game when Paulus comes in. Today, on one of his first offensive possessions, he drove into the line, had the ball stripped, and wound up getting tied up with an FSU big man, essentially leading to a lost possession on the next tied ball. His other drive resulted in a missed layup. Unfortunately, Paulus does not even possess an average ability of driving and getting to the rim. His long-range shooting has been the worst of his career, and today you could tell that he's hesitant to shoot. What does he offer on the offensive side of the ball?

Defensively, Paulus has always been a poor defender. He gets beat by pretty much every single guard he has tried to defend. On one of his first defensive possessions against Davidson, he got beat by his man so badly that Duke's big (either Zoubek or Thomas, I don't quite remember) had to rotate to help but was too late. Greg's man then proceeded to miss a layup, but then not get not only one, but two offensive rebounds before easily laying it up against Greg, who was too small to alter the opponent's shot. It was one of the most pathetic displays of defense I have seen in a long time.

Those are just examples which highlight Greg's shortcomings. Greg offers much more than that, and he's a better player than he's shown, but many of his minutes and appearances this season have been dominated by those kinds of plays. He has suffered arm, hand, leg and most likely ankle injuries this season, and they have clearly slowed him to the point of almost complete ineffectiveness.

Until Paulus gets healthy, he needs as few minutes as possible.

BlueintheFace

01-11-2009, 01:04 AM

I couldn't disagree more. Nolan Smith attacked the rim today, he was six for six from the free throw line and he got to the line by driving. Yes, he was careless with the ball today at times but his speed, on both ends of the floor, makes us a much better team.

Read my post again. I said in the half court set. Nolan attacked the rim almost exclusively on the break... that is what he is very good at, but he DOES NOT penetrate in the half court set and get to the rim. It just doesn't happen very often... and that is what we thought we would get from him. I think he is still one year away from that kind of "attack off the dribble" mentality

Jumbo

01-11-2009, 02:13 AM

First you say let's give some credit to FSU's defense, which is one of the better in the ACC, then you turn around and slam some of our guys.

FSU played very tough D and when you do that, the other guy doesn't do well........that's what our guys do to the opponents!

Zoubek was probably taken out because K realized a smaller, quicker lineup could run all the FSU giants into the ground which is why we went from a 19-14 lead to a 44-19 lead.
Singler was the only big guy we had in there most of the second half........he probably was tired but he still hit a couple of big 3's and rebounded his miss and put it back. Pedestrian? I think not.

Nolan didn't have a great game but this was the best defense Duke has played against this year, by far. FSU was in Duke's shirts most of the first 25-30 minutes of the game. Tough defense causes turnovers....see Duke defense for examples.

Tough, tough game in a place where some highly rated Duke teams have been upset. All in all, I think this was a good win.

ps: I wish they would close the deal however!

Who did I "slam?" Obviously, as I stated, FSU's defense has a lot to do with the relatively poor performances out of some guys. But I'm not sure how you could have watched the game and not considered Singler's overall play (14 points, no assists, four fouls and a lack of flow for much of the game) relatively pedestrian by his usual standards. I'm not sure how you could have watched Zoubek and thought he was the same force on the interior, as Alabi was grabbing offensive board after offensive board, and thought he had the same impact he's shown for most of the season.

The point I was making was that a number of unusual things happened today, things that I don't expect to coincide with each other often ... and Duke still won. That's the mark of a strong team. "Slamming" players? Give me a break.

Jumbo

01-11-2009, 02:21 AM

There was an extended stretch in the first half when neither of Duke's point guards were on the floor, Paulus or Smith, from the 6:30 mark to 2:26. That's the first time this season I can recall that happening which puzzled me at first.

Duke has used Scheyer at the point without Smith or Paulus on the floor a bit in each of the last few games.

wisteria

01-11-2009, 03:02 AM

In Scheyer's first year, we were soooo lack of (healthy) point guards that he was thrown into the war while learning how to play PG. Looking back, it's really a blessing now that we can Scheyer at the point at times, who has turned out to be fairly good at it.

Saratoga2

01-11-2009, 07:53 AM

There has been no talk of Plumlee in the scheme of things. At 6'10" and athletic, it would have been interesting to see how he would have done inside against FSU. Certainly his mobility and size would have been assets in the game. His inexperience and practice might nix long term play, but still, with Zoubek not able to offer the kind of mobility and aggressiveness needed in the game, I would think a few minutes of PT to Plumlee when up by 25 would provide some sort of guidance for his use going forward. We will need fresh legs in some of the ACC games.

dukelifer

01-11-2009, 08:46 AM

A rough first half marked by little O and intense D, a early second half spurt building a big lead and then a loss of the lead and hanging on for the win. Duke certainly has that kind of game down pat now after doing it two times in a row. I personally prefer the 30 point blow out- but this is the ACC on the road. I have to credit FSU for playing hard. I doubt they will play that hard again this year. They are huge and relentless and played intense for the first 20 minutes. I also was impressed with Duke's consistency on D. It is not easy to do that when the shots are not falling. Without G, I am not sure would have cracked double digits but Duke held FSU to 14 points in their place! That is good D. I really thought Duke had broken their backs when they got up by 25 with 12 or so minutes left. I did not think FSU had the energy to come back and if this was not at home- who knows. Duke was tired and once the intensity dropped from an unreal level of the first half- Duke could not get it back and FSU took advantage. Duke looked tired at the end of the game- and that was most of the reason for missed free throws that should have made this a 15 point win. That is one of the dangers of getting a huge lead on the road. Home teams can draw energy from their crowd to mount comebacks. Duke did hold them off and did not play great to do it.

I was worried this stretch of games because because I know the team will be pressed hard against very physical teams. K has to do a great job of managing them in the coming days to keep them fresh. While this game was ugly, there are a few reasons for excitement and concern. As for excitement, G played great. The dunks are one thing and we know he can knock down a three on occassion but it was that short range jumper that was missing this year. That shot is just great. He used it a few times at the end of the game when Duke really needed to maintain separation. That was what he needs to do and continue to work on it in games. A concern is Duke's ability to handle trapping pressure. Nolan's handle and decision making is just average. His awareness of the court needs to improve- and it will. But Duke fans may have to endure some very tense moments as he learns. Nolan does do some things exceptionally well- like anticipating on D and exploding to the hoop- and showed a lot of that yesterday. As for Paulus, I think he will have his moments this year- but in this game he was a bit overmatched. I can't help but wonder if he is still not 100%- particularly his knee. Just don't know. One guy who should be given props in this game was McClure. He led the team in rebounds in 15 minutes of play and had an exceptional block. Many of those bounds were in traffic against guys much, much bigger than he. McClure is really giving excellent minutes and somehow plays much bigger than he is. He is fearless. I am impressed with his play.

bird

01-11-2009, 09:42 AM

I completely disagree with your contention that Paulus has improved at the defensive end of the court . . . .

For the first, and likely last time, I disagree with Jumbo. I do think that Paulus has improved this season defensively in at least one important respect: keeping in front of his man. What I am seeing this year is that the other team's guard, knowing the book on Paulus is that you can drive on him, will drive, and more often than not will either be stopped or even be forced into an awkward pass. Sometimes it looks like the other team's guard is overeager, but whatever, I do think Paulus is doing better on one area that was especially problematic in the past.

elvis14

01-11-2009, 09:50 AM

I'm really happy with a road win in the ACC. Our defense was great. One thing I have not really read is how K fueled the comeback in the second half by changing the offense. Someone asked if we went to the spread (aka Stall) and the answer is no. What I saw was not an all out stall but from the point where Nolan hit a shot on the break, got the and 1 and then subbed out for Greg the offense changed. This continued With and without Paulus. I thought we were trying to use more of the clock (not a total stall) and lost what little flow we had on the offensive end. In trying to kill the clock, we were less aggressive on offense and as good as the FSU was playing defense (in the context of what the refs were allowing) we stopped scoring. At the same time, I'm not too worried about the final score because we missed some free throws we normall make at the end that made the game seem closer than it should have been. I know it was an ugly game but I just don't like all the pessimism on here. We won an away game in a physical game that was called in a manner to benefit the physical style FSU prefers...and we kicked their butts! That was good stuff!!!

Lots of talk on there about Paulus. I try not to post about Greg because I'm not a fan of his game. Note that sentence where I said of his "game". As a person, competitor, kid that plays hard, attitude, real Dukie...I love the kid. Between the lines, however, I have never been a big fan.

And yes, it was a rough game. But Duke gave as good as they got, and won, which I am proud of and happy about. When you think about it, this FSU team is exactly the type that has spelled Doom for Duke in recent years. We have to give credit to a great Defensive effort by FSU. They maybe got away with a few reaches, but their effort and execution on D must be acknowledged. A great effort from a very talented team.

This is the type of game I feel like we can win this year that gave us issues in the past. I think we are just tougher this year and I like it. I prefer a less physical style of play and wish the refs wouldn't let games like yesterdays happen all the time. At the same time, this is the type of play that is allowed in the tournament so it's good to see Duke beat a team at it's own game being physical.

I never got the sense that Greg "led" the team last season. Was he a captain? (No.) Was he one of the best couple of players? (No.) I'm not sure last year's team had a clear leader, and this year's team -- with Jon, Kyle and even G -- has much more in the way of leadership.

"Torching" the ACC and the country? A/TO ratio is incredibly overrated. It favors guys who don't take chances.

I never saw that "tremendous vision, but yes, he was an excellent shooter last season.

snipped some for brevity

He's not playing six, seven minutes a night. This was the first game in which he's played single-digits all season, in fact. Yes, Nolan's defense is a must, and he's just a better player than Greg Paulus at this point. I completely disagree with your contention that Paulus has improved at the defensive end of the court, and I don't know what "scrappy" even means in this case. And as far as "point guard type of leadership" goes, I think Jon Scheyer gives us more of that than either Smith or Paulus.

Greg needs to knock down jump shots and accept his role. It's that simple.

I really enjoyed this post by Jumbo because it expressed opinions about Greg that I share. I've read so many times on this board that "yeah Nolan's defense is better but the offense runs better with Greg and his great assist to to ratio". Basically, this drives me crazy because I never thought the offense ran well because of Paulus. I always thought that more often than not it ran well despite Paulus. What I've seen for years is that the Greg would kill our offensive flow by stopping ball movement and trying too hard to make THE pass while dribbling the ball around often with his back to the basket.

Maybe I am in the minority on this, but I don't think court vision, ball handling, or running the offense are Greg's strengths. I love his shooting, he plays very hard, and he seems like he would be a great teammate, but when he is playing the point, it seems like he often has difficulty getting the team into its sets and that he is often having to back out his dribble. Because he can't drive on the elite defensive guards, he often has to turn his back to much of the court. Coach K had to run much of the offense through dribble hand-offs last year and the year prior because of this limitation. I actually think Greg's best minutes this year will come when he plays in the off-guard role, particularly when we need more 3-point shooting.

Nolan definitely has a ways to go in running the offense, but his ceiling is quite a bit higher, and I think he is learning what it will take to succeed against the stronger competition we will face the rest of the year.

I'm in that same minority around here. When I tell people of the love Gred gets on this board they are surprised. I almost never post about Paulus because I really don't like making negative posts.

I couldn't disagree more. Nolan Smith attacked the rim today, he was six for six from the free throw line and he got to the line by driving. Yes, he was careless with the ball today at times but his speed, on both ends of the floor, makes us a much better team.

Another post that agree with. Nolan does need to improve in the half court but his overall game is so much better for the team than Greg. Coach K is helping with Nolan's half court inexperience by having him bring the ball up and then going thru Jon to run the offense (one game we even went through Z).

There was an extended stretch in the first half when neither of Duke's point guards were on the floor, Paulus or Smith, from the 6:30 mark to 2:26. That's the first time this season I can recall that happening which puzzled me at first. In Smith's case I think it was to give him a better look at the game precisely because he wasn't attacking the basket, long a trademark of K's teams. That aggression you note seemed far more prevalent in the 2nd half than the first (0 points at halftime). Whether it makes Duke a better team--and I believe it does, or more importantly K believes it--that's what Duke's point guards are going to do if they want to be included in the rotation. I think that's also the main reason that Paulus has now been relegated to a backup pg role. Given the choice between a 3 point artist and and a point guard who can apply on the ball pressure on defense and penetrate the defense off the dribble on offense, it's no contest. And it had to be a tough decision for K because contrary to what has been posted in this thread, Paulus WAS a leader of last year's Duke team. He may have been an inconsistent leader but he was a leader. No one could look at a replay of last year's game in Chapel Hill and come to any other sensible conclusion.

I think that there were games last year when Paulus was a leader and there were games where he played great offense. I also think there's a lot of selective memory on this board in regards to Paulus. I didn't think the handful of great and good games he had made up for the many games where his teammates took care of him and the handful of games where he was just plain awful. I've seen times where Nolan and Greg were on the bench. I think we saw it yesterday because when it was time for Nolan to sit, Coach K brought in E-will instead of Greg. I thought last season that Nolan should have gotten many more of Greg's minutes and this year I'd like to see more games like yesterday where E-will gets minutes from Greg.

I really disagree with a vast majority of your post.

I will say that I completely agree that I miss last year's Greg Paulus, who was our best and most consistent outside shooter. However, that Paulus is long gone because of injuries, poor play, and a lack of confidence. It seems he is stuck in a vicious cycle where all three of those factors mix, but I suspect his injuries are the main culprit.

What I disagree with most is your assertion that Paulus needs more minutes. I actually think he needs less, because he's our worst player getting major minutes. I say "worst player" in the sense of his overall performance, and the liabilities he creates on both sides of the ball for this team. I think a healthy Greg would play better and deserve more minutes, but right now, he shouldn't be playing much.

I'm not sure you're paying attention to the game when Paulus comes in. Today, on one of his first offensive possessions, he drove into the line, had the ball stripped, and wound up getting tied up with an FSU big man, essentially leading to a lost possession on the next tied ball. His other drive resulted in a missed layup. Unfortunately, Paulus does not even possess an average ability of driving and getting to the rim. His long-range shooting has been the worst of his career, and today you could tell that he's hesitant to shoot. What does he offer on the offensive side of the ball?

Defensively, Paulus has always been a poor defender. He gets beat by pretty much every single guard he has tried to defend. On one of his first defensive possessions against Davidson, he got beat by his man so badly that Duke's big (either Zoubek or Thomas, I don't quite remember) had to rotate to help but was too late. Greg's man then proceeded to miss a layup, but then not get not only one, but two offensive rebounds before easily laying it up against Greg, who was too small to alter the opponent's shot. It was one of the most pathetic displays of defense I have seen in a long time.

Those are just examples which highlight Greg's shortcomings. Greg offers much more than that, and he's a better player than he's shown, but many of his minutes and appearances this season have been dominated by those kinds of plays. He has suffered arm, hand, leg and most likely ankle injuries this season, and they have clearly slowed him to the point of almost complete ineffectiveness.

Until Paulus gets healthy, he needs as few minutes as possible.

Again, I'm really glad to see others express these opinions. He's a great kid, I just don't think he's a great basketball player. I hope he does find a role on this years team (as a 3 pt specialist) but he has really yet to find his spot on this years team. Other teams know that Greg's defense is bad. What I've noticed more than ever this year is that teams will alter their offense when he's in the game. They will attack him with the dribble constantly causing Duke's defense to have to rotate and help. The other thing I've noticed is that they'll pick and roll with a big and when we switch on the pick (thus putting Greg on the big), they look to get the ball to that big in the paint immeidately. Even Ga. Southern attacked Greg off the dribble when he was in there.

Enough about GP, back on track. Another game, another win. Would I like to see us do a better job of holding second half leads? Of course, who wouldn't but ACC road wins are a good thing. I know we had the same sort of game vs. Davidson (build a big lead then sputter to a decent but not "big" win) but I'm not yet worried that this will be a trend. One thing that makes me not too worried is the way we are playing defense. I can't wait for the next game already.

blueprofessor

01-11-2009, 11:36 AM

...when you see them in person at Cameron you will realize just how big, athletic, and strong they are.
Some observations from being at the game:

*FSU is not a thug team.Last year Reid did let his aggression cross the line to dirty play.He has not yet reverted. FSU plays as hard as anyone and they outhustled Pitt for a good deal of that game---just could not shoot well.

*The crowd was as loud as usual and the vulgarity among students was rivaled only by the crowds of the Hurley years.

*For the first time in many years, there was no griping by the reporters or the fans filing out about the disparity in fouls awarded and shots(we had 39 to their 14). I believe this is because it is obvious FSU is playing just about as physically as is possible without strapping on the pads and helmets.

* This was a good,if ugly,win for Duke because this contest has usually been a struggle here in which Duke has won just over 2/3s of the games.FSU usually plays one of its best games of the year against us for a number of reasons, of which one is that they are desperate for a signature win to get into the NCAA tourney.

* Certainly,there are reasons to fret(Paulus' play, Nolan's TOs, holding a lead, the concentration of scoring in a few players), but Duke won a game they may have lost in another year against a ferocious defense from which they refused to back down.

*Finally, even though the scoring was concentrated in Singler and Gerald, the defense was thoroughly a team effort with everybody playing his butt off.When was the last time a team shot 29 more times (71-42) against us and got beat?

Best regards---Blue "glad it's over and now we get them in Cameron" professor:D:cool::cool:

micah75

01-11-2009, 11:57 AM

I really disagree with a vast majority of your post.

I will say that I completely agree that I miss last year's Greg Paulus, who was our best and most consistent outside shooter. However, that Paulus is long gone because of injuries, poor play, and a lack of confidence. It seems he is stuck in a vicious cycle where all three of those factors mix, but I suspect his injuries are the main culprit. (emphasis mine)

[...]I think a healthy Greg would play better and deserve more minutes, but right now, he shouldn't be playing much.

[...]He has suffered arm, hand, leg and most likely ankle injuries this season, and they have clearly slowed him to the point of almost complete ineffectiveness. (emphasis mine)

Thankyou. I prefer this type of qualified analysis of Greg's current problems and shortcomings over some of the not-so-generous rips I've been witnessing in this thread, e.g: "He needs to grow up", "Kerr made a career coming off the bench, why can't Greg", "I have never been a big fan", etc, etc.

I don't know if Greg reads these boards, but hey. Can we cut the guy a little bit of slack maybe? We're probably going to need his contributions off the bench if we're going to make a title run. In hindsight, he was probably a borderline candidate for redshirtting if injuries have debilitated him as much as they have, but to his credit, he hasn't complained and clearly wants to do whatever it takes to help the team... this season. If confidence is indeed an issue while he recovers and finds his rhythm, perhaps the least we can do is offer him a little moral support along with the never-ending critiques? I'm not suggesting we can't analyze his game and weaknesses, just sayin'. You know, maybe lose the not-so-subtle drone of disdain or something?

quickgtp

01-11-2009, 12:14 PM

RelativeWays

01-11-2009, 12:28 PM

To me, the final score was not surprising. After the Davidson game I took a look at FSU's schedule and saw that all of their games scored in the 50's and 60's and knowing that Leonard Hamilton loves coaching physical teams, so I really wasn't expecting a blowout, I figured it would be a fight.

Take that expectation away and knowing that Duke had a 25 pt lead right around 10 minutes in the 2nd half and let FSU muscle back in the game is a bit worrying, especially since it was the 2nd time in a row. A lot of people rationilzed the Davidson comeback to Stephen Curry's scoring abilities and thats certainly a factor. FSU doesn't have a player anywhere close to Curry's offensive abilities.

Coach K had said that this team is still looking for an offensive identity and the offense really runs through the defense. The team is not really a 3 point team anymore and they're trying new things beyond dribble drive and 3 point shots. Overall, I think the offense, particularly the post play has improved. I think we had some lapses in defense during those times allowing the opponent to come back. You could see that Duke then felt the need to get a score instead of a stop and they didn't run the offense as smoothly.

I'd like to see the team try to maintain the intensity throughout the game, move the ball on the offense (especially down low) and WORK ON THOSE BLASTED FTS!!!!!!

Cameron

01-11-2009, 12:38 PM

It just happens to be my opinion that Greg would benefit from a more consistent playing rotation, which would not only give him more time to get into a natural flow (especially in terms of shooting from deep, without having to press it) but also give him the confidence I think he needs from the staff on the bench.

I'm not saying our staff doesn't have confidence in Greg. I don't know anything about that situation. However, I do think that Greg's reduced time has had a great affect on his mentality out on the court. I'm telling you, Mike Gminski has it right. When Greg is out on the court, not only is he worrying about getting his shot back but he is also concerned about doing so in quick fashion as he knows he'll be pulled quickly if not. And I think that's causing him to press. On top of that, as a kid, I am sure Greg is feeling disappointed a bit that the staff has "gone in a different direction," to some degree.

Greg's obviously not a selfish kid, as he has been nothing but class while in a Duke uniform, but I would bet anything the decreased PT has had somewhat of an impact on the current result we are seeing from him. You would never see it from his face or his actions on the sideline, as he's still behind the team 110 percent and is always trying to direct our team out on the court, but his play all but bleeds it.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe all of you are right. Perhaps his injuries are just too much a hinderance -- although, that's a notion I refuse to believe considering how well he played after getting the start and solid minutes against UNC Asheville, a game which Greg hit back to back triples from 25 feet in a classic Paulus confidence streak. Who's to say practice isn't going too well, as others have suggested? Maybe he's not performing.

I don't think so, however. I know that's a strong statement, but Greg has way too much talent to be playing this poorly. I think his mental game has been lost -- and I think that can be fixed by throwing him back into a more constant place on this team.

How would the minutes be split up, that's a more difficult question. That's why we have Krzyzewski, Collins, and Wojciechowski on the bench.

I'm sorry if my defense of Paulus frustrates some.

beltwayBD

01-11-2009, 12:50 PM

Does anyone think there may be a chance Greg is nursing some sort of injury that is limiting his minutes? I do think his defense has gotten a tad better......

Yeah, last time I checked he still had one whole arm in a wrap and two fingers taped! The kinda thing that might affect a sharp-shooting point guard, eh?

beltwayBD

01-11-2009, 12:53 PM

*FSU is not a thug team.Last year Reid did let his aggression cross the line to dirty play.He has not yet reverted. FSU plays as hard as anyone and they outhustled Pitt for a good deal of that game---just could not shoot well.

Poor choice of words on my part. Nevertheless, I think that while they often played tough, physical defense, FSU occasionally crossed the line with unnecessary smacks and shoves. And they certainly got away with a few. But I appreciate that I should express this as a factual argument rather than name-calling.

Diddy

01-11-2009, 01:15 PM

Does anyone think there may be a chance Greg is nursing some sort of injury that is limiting his minutes? I do think his defense has gotten a tad better......

I really think we lose our offensive flow with McClure on the court. IMO, he is a huge liability on O, and I wonder if his superior defensive efforts more than make up that offensive deficiency.

I agree with this statement, and would throw Lance in as well. Against almost 90+ % of the teams we play, McClure and Lance bring a lot to the table. They play good to great D, rebound, hustle, and are opportunistic on O. That is all we really need from them, and they are key to us winning games.

Against superiour Defensive teams, like FSU, or Pitt, they can be real liabilities. Almost every time McClure tried to dribble, he lost the ball. Lance never seemed to be expecting a pass.

When McClure is in, he is the obvious Weak Link on O. Usually his D offsets this. Most of the time, he draws the opponents weakest Defender, who uses David's ineffectiveness to the defender's advantage, usually just coasting on D. Yesterday, there wasn't really a weak Defender for FSU, and they attacked Dave whenever he got the ball.

It is kind of a moot point, because we won't face that kind of D on a regular basis. But David has to recognize that against a good Defensive team, he simply can't dribble the ball whenever there is traffic. It is a TO waiting to happen.

Yesterday was bad, but most of the team had bad games. Nolan and Kyle were Ok to Good, G had a great game, and everyone else had a down or worse game.

Devilsfan

01-11-2009, 02:46 PM

McClure is the BEST defender on our team, IMO. This team is not and will not be known for its offense. It has been winning becaise of its Defense. Anyone that follows the game should realize that players like McClure with his D and rebounding/minute played and Scheyer with all of his intangibles help make Duke, Duke! A blue color type team that out hussles opponents, does all the little things while playing fundamentally sound basketball. It's merely well coached and well executed basketball.

wisteria

01-11-2009, 03:07 PM

You know... all this discussion about Greg is gradually looking like the usual arguments on Magic's forum about Redick. It makes me sad. I was supportive of the move to start Nolan, and I still am. However the turn of events that have led to Greg's current situation is really saddening. I also think that Greg may need more minutes and during those minutes he should probably shoot more. Maybe he'll brick them. But just as we always argue in Redick's case, you can't expect a shooter to shoot 2 or 3 times every game and still maintain his stroke and confidence. Anyways, Greg has been through A TON of adversity in his tenure at Duke, and he had shown enormous heart and dedication for this program. I hope it will all work out for him.

Papa John

01-11-2009, 03:35 PM

2. Patrick... when they showed Gerald's monster rebound... at or above the rim, Mike said that he is afraid of getting that high even if he's on a step ladder...

Even better was Jay's retort, about how Gerald's stepladder has an extra step...

DevilCastDownfromDurham

01-11-2009, 04:32 PM

A few thoughts/concurrences:

1) This is exactly the sort of game we've lost in recent years. A big, athletic, physical team that frustrates us so we can't score. Great win for the team today and for confidence going forward.

2) Welcome back G! The dunk was huge for momentum, but the return of his midrange stop-and-pop had me jumping up and down. I think he's finally getting healthy. With his improved stroke I think G may be able to put together the game we've all envisioned for him. So far we've seen him step up when no one else can. Let's see if he can stay as aggressive when other guys are also dominating the ball.

3) Don't want to get into another thread, but we need a real PG in the worst way. I actually thought Nolan did a lot of really good things (as Bob mentioned), but he's still a lead guard, not a distributor. Jon is our best PG right now and that's less than ideal for him and for the team.

4) That FSU fan who dominated the audio broadcast made me very angry and sad. His team had busted their behinds to stage a massive comeback and was in a fight for a huge upset, but all that jack[donkey] could do was yell at Greg!?! No support for his team, not even trying to get under the skin of a player on the court. Just mindlessly attacking Greg on the bench. What a complete tool. While I REALLY have a new appreciation for how tough it must be for Greg, I think he may be giving the team a major assist by acting as a lightning rod!

5) And speaking of Greg, I'm really frustrated for him as well. He's had such a great attitude for three years of this abuse and never said a word despite nasty fans (both anti- and pro-Duke, unfortunately), an unreal succession of injuries, and a lack of team success that gets blasted in the media. Now, I think he sees his career ending and this can't be how he imagined it would go. I hope he can remember that the last chapter isn't written yet and he still has time to create the ending that he wants for himself and his team.

6) I'm enjoying my spot from the EMail bandwagon. Great strength for a beanpole, already making very positive contributions on D, and the game seems to be beginning to slow down a bit (still a ways to go obviously). Having him makes our press much better, IMO which, as others have noted, has worked very well for us.

We have lots of places to improve (Plumlee, Nolan as a PG, stepping on throats, etc.) but I LOVE this team and I think we should all appreciate some of the best D K has produced. This team is great fun to watch and on track to do some really special things. I'm proud and excited to be along for the ride, even from the comfort of my couch.

RainingThrees

01-11-2009, 04:41 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9WsoipO0xE

mike88

01-11-2009, 05:11 PM

A few thoughts/concurrences:

3) Don't want to get into another thread, but we need a real PG in the worst way. I actually thought Nolan did a lot of really good things (as Bob mentioned), but he's still a lead guard, not a distributor. Jon is our best PG right now and that's less than ideal for him and for the team.

Whether it is cause or effect, Coach K has chosen this year to emphasize an offensive scheme that does not depend on a classic point guard whose main role is as distributor. Our primary sets start with a pass to Kyle (or Lance or even sometimes Zoubek) at the elbow or they begin at the wing with Jon, Kyle, or Gerald. In effect, we are using our 2-4 men as the primary distributors. In many cases, this works very well, as Kyle and Jon thrive in that role, and it enables Gerald to get to the lane for the pull-up or drive to the rim. In this scheme, Nolan often becomes a jump shooter, a role for which he is well suited. Running these sets, I don't think we should expect big assist numbers for Nolan, but he does need to get his turnovers down.

Good defenses will prepare for these sets, and can (with the right personnel) take away many of the primary options. It is nice to have some alternate looks (like Zoubek in the low post) to go to when the primary stuff is not working or just to take advantage of match-ups in certain games.

With time, we may see Nolan developing the kind of driving game that Jason Williams brought to Duke. If that is the case we may see more of the high pick and and Nolan's assists will go up. Bottom line, I think he just needs time and experience in the role.

Cameron

01-11-2009, 06:36 PM

However the turn of events that have led to Greg's current situation is really saddening. I also think that Greg may need more minutes and during those minutes he should probably shoot more. Maybe he'll brick them. But just as we always argue in Redick's case, you can't expect a shooter to shoot 2 or 3 times every game and still maintain his stroke and confidence.

That's all I am saying. Thank you for sharing the opinion.

Greg is incredibly important to this team's offensive flow. Last season clearly proves this. Once he starts firing again, we are in business. I can't explain it, but Greg's success seems to have a direct result on the rest of our team's outside shooting. Probably because he is an emotional "leader."

davekay1971

01-11-2009, 08:25 PM

Interesting and very classy comments by Coach K after the game. I can't stand the FSU games in Tallahassee, but you get the feeling K really respects FSU's defensive intensity. I also got the feeling he likes playing at FSU the same way Bill Cowher probably enjoyed playing at Baltimore.

JDev

01-11-2009, 08:45 PM

Cameron

01-11-2009, 09:17 PM

Why doesn't the same principle apply to Greg?

That's what I have been wondering over and over and over again.

Thank you, too!

FireOgilvie

01-11-2009, 09:23 PM

That is an excellent point. Many, on this board an elsewhere, have theorized that Redick's role does not suit him and that it is hard to ask a shooter to have rhythm when his minutes are so sporadic. Why doesn't the same principle apply to Greg?

Greg plays 18 minutes a game. Redick was playing about 3 when that was relevant.

Jumbo

01-11-2009, 09:56 PM

Greg plays 18 minutes a game. Redick was playing about 3 when that was relevant.

Exactly. Cameron continues to treat last game as if it has been indicative of the entire season. Paulus has played a lot of minutes this season. I'm really sad to say this denegrating into a referendum on Greg Paulus, but it's hard to let Cameron's comments -- and the hyperbole attached -- go unanswered.

Why can't we split the difference and just say that it would be helpful if Paulus could give Duke another spot-up shooter? That's truthful, it's not exaggerated in any way, and it's relevant. But when we start bringing pinpoint playmaking into the equation, that's overselling the point. And so, frankly, is leadership. Again, Nelson was the captain last year, not Paulus. Just because a player pumps his fist a lot and waves the crowd on, it doesn't mean he's an "emotional leader." I have no idea whether Paulus was a leader on last year's club. But neither does anyone else, outside of the people directly associated with the team. Speculating about that just moves the conversation into an area none of us can prove.

quickgtp

01-11-2009, 11:05 PM

Yeah, last time I checked he still had one whole arm in a wrap and two fingers taped! The kinda thing that might affect a sharp-shooting point guard, eh?

LOL, true, but I was thinking more along the lines of perhaps a lower-leg injury.....

mike88

01-11-2009, 11:36 PM

Exactly. Cameron continues to treat last game as if it has been indicative of the entire season.

I am confident that Greg is going to give us important minutes this year in several games. FSU's team is somewhat unusual- they started Douglas (who is too strong and quick for Greg) and a 6'7" player at guard- these are clearly not the best match-ups for Greg, and why we saw E Williams more than usual.

Greg will help us with his shooting, by allowing Nolan to rest, and with his experience. I do think he is doing a better job on defense than in past years, but it will hard for him against several of the ACC teams' guards- this year there are several very quick and strong players, both starters and back-ups.

Matches

01-12-2009, 08:56 AM

I believe Greg's moment will come. There's going to be a time before this season is over when we really need him, and when he will be given the opportunity to shine. Obviously this hasn't been an ideal senior season for him, but the season is not over by a long shot.

jv001

01-12-2009, 09:25 AM

I thought Greg's shooting problems may have been from his arm injury. However after last night's game I don't think that's it. His arm cannot be hurting him much if he wrestles the basketball from a Fl State player like he did last night. He just needs to take that kind of confidence to his shooting, ball handling and his defense. I had rather see him display basketball skills and not football skills. Go Duke!

JDev

01-12-2009, 11:40 AM

Greg plays 18 minutes a game. Redick was playing about 3 when that was relevant.

Not completely accurate, but that is neither here nor there. When Greg gets a bit healthier I think he will regain his shooting touch, which is the top skill he has to offer (I didn't say only skill). That would help this Duke team emmensely, with another quality outside shooter. His outsiding shooting has been pivotal in many Duke wins prior to this year, and I don't see it just vanishing completely.

Classof06

01-12-2009, 02:24 PM

- It was great to see Gerald breakout like that. No more than a minute into the game, I texted my brother and told him Gerald was going to explode in that game. I could sense it was coming because he went 3-11 from the field but still was able to get 11 pts against Davidson.

- I've been saying this for a while and Bilas pointed it out during the game but Plumlee needs to eventually get more minutes. We're going to need Plumlee's big body come the tournament.

- Nolan is still growing into his role and it's going to take time. But there's no doubt in my mind this team is better with him starting. He might not have 10 assists a game but with the number of ballhandlers Duke has in the game at any given time, I don't believe Smith has to be an assist machine. That being said, I think Nolan's situation is indicative of this year's team; there's a lot of room for improvement and that's a good thing.

- Duke did a good job of battling FSU's size and length. Yes, we got outrebounded by 12 but this is a game I really think Duke would've lost last year. As pointed out during the telecast, FSU is one of the biggest and longest teams in the country. That's why I think this game was such a good test for Duke.

- When Pitt came to Tallahassee on 12/21, they beat FSU by the exact same margin we did (8 pts). Just putting that out there.