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wbs2455
12-29-2008, 07:17 PM
Flip over to ESPN. GTown jumped out to an early 18-3 lead on the back of Greg Monroe. He's scored in the post against a guy who is in the running for POY, he's gotten assists from the high post, drilled a 3, gotten a steal off a guard and fast break layup. Quite a show. Even if he stays just one year, he'll have a huge impact on his team.

CLT Devil
12-29-2008, 07:33 PM
Greg Monroe looks VERY good

Indoor66
12-29-2008, 08:09 PM
I am underwhelmed by both teams.

Bluedog
12-29-2008, 08:56 PM
I am underwhelmed by both teams.

I kind of agree, but looks aren't always everything. Gtown had around a 6 minute FG drougt and Uconn still couldn't even come back. Monroe has made some nice post moves, including an old school sky hook off the glass. I'm definitely rooting for Gtown though (since we play them; and of course, I hate the Uconnvicts), so I'm happy!

Gtown has a killer schedule coming up though, so we'll know if they're for real or not before we play them. I mean, tonight makes it seems like they're for real as they are up by 15 or so against the #2 team in the country supposedly. It's really just UNC and then 8-10 or so other teams that are a step below....I hate to say it, but that's what I've seen thus far. Of course, one of those 8-10 teams could beat UNC in a given game - luckily, NCAA tournament isn't 4 out of 7.

TaiAdmiral
12-29-2008, 08:56 PM
If only Greg Monroe went to Duke. He is looking VERY good. Oh man...the Duke Georgetown game is gonna be huge after this win for GTown. Can't wait to go.

Ders24
12-29-2008, 08:57 PM
I am underwhelmed by both teams.

I've only seen a few minutes, but UConn looks terrible. They can't attack a zone at all and aren't playing defense.

Bluedog
12-29-2008, 09:01 PM
I've only seen a few minutes, but UConn looks terrible. They can't attack a zone at all and aren't playing defense.

Yeah, Uconn really can't shoot the ball at all. They just try to power you inside and make it a physical battle. I'm sure they'll be seeing a LOT of zone though, so eventually they'll have to learn how to deal with it. Thabeet has 3 points, I think. Having said that, if I only watched us vs. Michigan, I would also say we can't shoot the ball and don't know how to deal with zone, but I know that was an anomaly. ;)

Indoor66
12-29-2008, 09:05 PM
I've only seen a few minutes, but UConn looks terrible. They can't attack a zone at all and aren't playing defense.

Thabeet looked like a stiff; Monroe a stud.

dukelifer
12-29-2008, 09:36 PM
If only Greg Monroe went to Duke. He is looking VERY good. Oh man...the Duke Georgetown game is gonna be huge after this win for GTown. Can't wait to go.
He had a good game- mainly because he hit his first two 3's of the season and had a few nice hooks over the UConn big man. He also had some nice assists. Three rebounds, however, is not exactly dominating. He is still a bit raw and not very physical. Duke is getting a lot out of its center position this year. Having Monroe would not really change much- except a bit more depth.

Indoor66
12-29-2008, 09:38 PM
He had a good game- mainly because he hit his first two 3's of the season and had a few nice hooks over the UConn big man. He also had some nice assists. Three rebounds, however, is not exactly dominating. He is still a bit raw and not very physical. Duke is getting a lot out of its center position this year. Having Monroe would not really change much- except a bit more depth.

The comments were not about Duke, in any way!

calltheobvious
12-29-2008, 09:52 PM
He had a good game- mainly because he hit his first two 3's of the season and had a few nice hooks over the UConn big man. He also had some nice assists. Three rebounds, however, is not exactly dominating. He is still a bit raw and not very physical. Duke is getting a lot out of its center position this year. Having Monroe would not really change much- except a bit more depth.

If that makes you feel better, fine; but this looks an awful lot like an "other than that, Mrs. Lincoln" critique. Monroe spent a ton of defensive possessions on the bench, UConn committed close to twenty turnovers, and Georgetown shot a lot of free throws. In other words, there simply weren't many rebounds to be had for the Hoyas tonight.

You really see that little difference between this universe and the parallel one in which Monroe has come to Durham?

dukelifer
12-29-2008, 09:54 PM
The comments were not about Duke, in any way! I thought the first point was "If only Monroe went to Duke"? I was simply commenting that he is playing okay, but is not doing more than Duke's current centers.

dukelifer
12-29-2008, 10:00 PM
If that makes you feel better, fine; but this looks an awful lot like an "other than that, Mrs. Lincoln" critique. Monroe spent a ton of defensive possessions on the bench, UConn committed close to twenty turnovers, and Georgetown shot a lot of free throws. In other words, there simply weren't many rebounds to be had for the Hoyas tonight.

You really see that little difference between this universe and the parallel one in which Monroe has come to Durham?

At this point no. Monroe has yet to have a double digit rebounding game this season and averages about 4 defensive rebounds a game. In his last few games- he was getting 1-4 buckets. So even in this universe I still don't see a player that is a dominating post player. He will likely develop- but right now I don't see it.

dukelifer
12-29-2008, 10:14 PM
You really see that little difference between this universe and the parallel one in which Monroe has come to Durham?

If I had to pick between two big men that almost went to Duke- I would pick Patrick Patterson based on what I have seen.

SilkyJ
12-29-2008, 10:35 PM
I am underwhelmed by both teams.

My take was that both teams are still gelling as there was significant sloppy play and neither team has really reached the full potential of the sum of its parts. I think there was plenty to learn around individual talent: Monroe is an emerging stud if not a bonafide one, and I'd think is a top 5 or 3 potential pick, same for Thabeet, who's offense is still developing, buy so was Greg Oden's and he went ahead of durant. Either way, its not even january yet so both teams have a lot of time to come together and i bet both will be scary and contenders for the FF come march.

I'd also say that g-town's first 5 is very legit. I'd take it over uconn's probably. Obviously they lack depth in a big way...but JT3 did a great job with subbing monroe in and out on offense/defense. Worked brilliantly.


Thabeet looked like a stiff; Monroe a stud.

Offensively I agree, but he has a serious presence on defense and on the boards.

calltheobvious
12-29-2008, 10:43 PM
If I had to pick between two big men that almost went to Duke- I would pick Patrick Patterson based on what I have seen.

We're in complete agreement on this one.

geraldsneighbor
12-30-2008, 12:11 AM
I am underwhelmed by both teams.

Thats the style of ball they play in the Big East. Its games are normally in the 60s, and is more physical which leads to an uglier brand of basketball. I also think a few teams in the Big East (Pitt, Villanova) are really banking on Big Conference wins helping their seeding down the line. I mean look at some of the teams the Big East is playing out of conference. Pitt hasn't seen a ranked team yet, and has had 1 true road contest, the was last weekend in Trailorhasse. I don't want to take away from the amount of good teams, but there is something to be said for squads who don't challenge themselves early in the season. In some cases it haunts you (Syracuse in '07) at the end of the year.

mgtr
12-30-2008, 08:02 AM
Thabeet looked like a stiff; Monroe a stud.

I think a good bit of this comes from their differing histories. If a kid grows up shooting hoops every day and playing pickup games, he will look more comfortable than a kid who has the game taught to him later.

should_be_working
12-30-2008, 09:25 AM
I watched most of this game (my husband's a Louisville fan, so i have to watch a lot of big east games) and it was ugly. The Big East brand of basketball is, to me, not enjoyable at all. It seemed like the teams last night could only score if they made foul shots, got something from transition, or made a put back off the offensive glass. There were a ton of fouls and turnovers. There was no rhythm to the game - neither team impressed. Watching games like these remind me of how lucky i am that my team resides in the ACC.

bird
12-30-2008, 10:35 AM
My take was that both teams are still gelling as there was significant sloppy play and neither team has really reached the full potential of the sum of its parts. I think there was plenty to learn around individual talent: Monroe is an emerging stud if not a bonafide one, and I'd think is a top 5 or 3 potential pick, same for Thabeet, who's offense is still developing, buy so was Greg Oden's and he went ahead of durant. Either way, its not even january yet so both teams have a lot of time to come together and i bet both will be scary and contenders for the FF come march.



I agree. There's a reason why x-bazillion NBA scouts attended the game. Both teams have much upside potential.

mapei
12-30-2008, 11:36 AM
Hoya Saxa.

If you're a Hoyas fan, and I am, that was wonderful to watch. Gtown's great weakness is rebounding (sound familiar?), its great strength is defense. They are either first or second in the country in FG% defense. And Greg Monroe is proving to be better beyond expectations. I wouldn't say "dominant big man" a la Ewing the first, but "highly skilled big man." I'd say the 1 and the 5 are the only Hoya positions where the the staters are better than Duke's but, if you don't see that, your bias is showing. 2, 3, 4, and the bench, Duke is better, though Austin Freeman is good enough to make it interesting.

I'll hate it when Gtown plays Duke - I never want either team to lose - but I'm glad the Hoyas were able to beat up on MD, UConn and, a couple of years ago, UNC, where the two teams' interests align.

All that aside, I'm looking forward to only my third game in Cameron tomorrow. Let's go Duke!

RainingThrees
12-30-2008, 11:38 AM
I will be watching to see how Zoubek and Lance play against Monroe and the other G'Town bigs. Didn't put Kyle in there since he's not a post player.

Classof06
12-30-2008, 11:59 AM
I'm pretty much over it, but watching Greg Monroe last night really makes you (or me, at least) wonder "what if" as a Duke fan. The kid is oozing with talent. That being said, I can see why he chose Georgetown. Not that he couldn't thrive at Duke, but G'Town's offense seems to complement his skill set perfectly.

Can't wait to see Duke play G'Town and I think it will be a great one. This is a game I think Duke really needs, as they needed the Pitt game last season. Big East teams have given us trouble lately (Pitt, WVU) and I think this is a game that will do wonders in preparing Duke for the ACC slate.

Despite not playing well, UCONN is still one of the few teams that I think can not only win a national title but beat Carolina on its way to one. They stumbled a bit last night, but they'll learn from it and move on. This loss will make them a better team down the road.

Devilsfan
12-30-2008, 12:31 PM
Of course Monroe is very good. He was our number one recruiting target. We can certainly pick out great talent. We like everyone else don't always land our first choice.

MADevil30
12-30-2008, 12:43 PM
Hoya Saxa.
I'd say the 1 and the 5 are the only Hoya positions where the the staters are better than Duke's but, if you don't see that, your bias is showing.


You'd really take Chris Wright over Nolan? From the games I've seen the guy doesn't play solid defense, can't shoot, and doesn't make particularly smart passes. I know Nolan's game is still developing offensively and he makes his fair share of sloppy passes, but he's got a great stroke and plays lock-down d, and that's all we need out of a pg.

Just insert "Jessie Sapp" for "Chris Wright" if you consider him GTown's 1, the rest still applies

Saratoga2
12-30-2008, 01:50 PM
Calhoun was complaining about the number of foul shots that Georgetown was getting. I don't remember him saying a lot when our team was decimated by fouls called for them. A lot of those were really questionable.

UCON doesn't look like a #2 team and surely will drop down next week. That could leave the ACC with 3 of the 5 leading teams.

wisteria
12-30-2008, 01:54 PM
UCON doesn't look like a #2 team and surely will drop down next week. That could leave the ACC with 3 of the 5 leading teams.

Don't forget that Pitt will play at G-town this Saturday. Pitt hasn't played any ranked team yet. If G-town pulls off another upset, the top 10 next week will have quite a shake-up.

mapei
12-30-2008, 04:53 PM
You'd really take Chris Wright over Nolan? From the games I've seen the guy doesn't play solid defense, can't shoot, and doesn't make particularly smart passes. I know Nolan's game is still developing offensively and he makes his fair share of sloppy passes, but he's got a great stroke and plays lock-down d, and that's all we need out of a pg.

Just insert "Jessie Sapp" for "Chris Wright" if you consider him GTown's 1, the rest still applies

I think it's close, but I would take Chris over Nolan. Monroe over Zoubek is a much easier call, as is Singler over Summers. I had the same issues re Chris last year, but I think he's stepped up - his defense is actually superb, and he gets a lot of steals - he does occasionally make the dumb mistake trying too hard a la DeMarcus, being a bit helter-skelter on the occasional drive. But his pluses far outweigh his minuses.

I like Sapp a lot, but I wouldn't take him over Nolan or Scheyer.

The easiest call of all is Duke's bench over the Hoyas'. Clark and Wattad are serviceable, especially Clark on O and Wattad on D. They will both get better with experience, as I hope Sims will. But they are no match for Greg, Marty et al.

DoubleDuke Dad
12-30-2008, 05:26 PM
If you look at the box score for the game you will see that both Connecticut and Georgetown hardly played their subs. Connecticut basically used seven players. The eight player Edwards got 9 minutes. Georgetown was even worse. For all intensive purposes they used 5 players. The three other players who got into the game got 12, 11 and 6 minutes respectively, and the only reason they got that many minutes was that for a good part of the second half Thompson was only playing Monroe on offense to try and keep him out of foul trouble.

CameronCrazy'11
12-30-2008, 05:53 PM
If you look at the box score for the game you will see that both Connecticut and Georgetown hardly played their subs. Connecticut basically used seven players. The eight player Edwards got 9 minutes. Georgetown was even worse. For all intensive purposes they used 5 players. The three other players who got into the game got 12, 11 and 6 minutes respectively, and the only reason they got that many minutes was that for a good part of the second half Thompson was only playing Monroe on offense to try and keep him out of foul trouble.

Good as Georgetown is, they can't go all the way if they can't play their bench. Maybe Duke will ramp up the tempo to try to tire out the starters, knowing that Duke's bench beats Georgetown's bench easily.

Ders24
12-31-2008, 12:21 PM
Good as Georgetown is, they can't go all the way if they can't play their bench. Maybe Duke will ramp up the tempo to try to tire out the starters, knowing that Duke's bench beats Georgetown's bench easily.

It should be interesting to see how Georgetown handles their (lack of) depth once they start hitting mid-end season and tournaments, especially in The Best Conference Ever.

gw67
12-31-2008, 01:41 PM
It is true that Thompson plays his starters more minutes that most. However, this does not necessarily mean that they lack depth, IMO. Clark is a freshman who was highly regarded coming out of high school (he was All Met and I believe POY last year) and he has played well in spurts. Vaughn was a highly recruited player out of high school (I believe that Duke looked at him early in his senior year) and is a decent big man. I don't know much about Wattad but he often gives Freeman a break and seems like a capable reserve.

I believe that the Georgetown starters have done what Coach K stated that he wants his starters to do. They have distanced themselves from the reserves.

gw67

greybeard
12-31-2008, 02:44 PM
I know that people will think this nuts, but I believe that the combination of Zoubek and Lance might prove more valuable to Duke than Monroe would have. And, I also think it possible that Zoubek, should his feet hold up WELL, could take this team further than Monroe.

Is Monroe "better" than Zoubek? Who cares. You have a 7' 1" center who has some real width to him now. He is making catches deep inside the defense and is doing serious damage when he does. He is playing 7' 1" defense well, and is rebounding the ball, and not making mistakes. An incredibly valuable player to have on THIS team.

If this team continues in its progress in its ability to make use of Zoubek's ability to threaten the basket (that would of course include Zoubek's continuing to make progress too), for this year, at least, this team becomes much more dangerous than I believe it would be with Monroe.

Monroe sees and makes passes inside the defense perhaps better even than Singler, which is pretty freakin good. He is also much, much better off the bounce (dribble) than I ever imagined. He also is a terrific competitor. However, I do not think that some of the better bigs will need as much help, or have real trouble, dealing with Monroe when he catches it in the low post position, as I expected. Also, while he is active on the boards and as a defender, in neither category does he scare people.

So, if this were draw poker, I would not, looking only at this season, be throwing in my Zoubek card even if I knew the Monroe card was on the top of the deck. And, the funny thing is, that for the first time in the history of this board, I think it safe to assume that there will be 100 percent agreement with my view if I am right. (No, Jumbo, this really does say something, granted, not well, not close to well, but the meaning, when you think about it, is crystal clear. Crystal.)

CameronCrazy'11
12-31-2008, 09:18 PM
I know that people will think this nuts, but I believe that the combination of Zoubek and Lance might prove more valuable to Duke than Monroe would have. And, I also think it possible that Zoubek, should his feet hold up WELL, could take this team further than Monroe.

Is Monroe "better" than Zoubek? Who cares. You have a 7' 1" center who has some real width to him now. He is making catches deep inside the defense and is doing serious damage when he does. He is playing 7' 1" defense well, and is rebounding the ball, and not making mistakes. An incredibly valuable player to have on THIS team.

If this team continues in its progress in its ability to make use of Zoubek's ability to threaten the basket (that would of course include Zoubek's continuing to make progress too), for this year, at least, this team becomes much more dangerous than I believe it would be with Monroe.

Monroe sees and makes passes inside the defense perhaps better even than Singler, which is pretty freakin good. He is also much, much better off the bounce (dribble) than I ever imagined. He also is a terrific competitor. However, I do not think that some of the better bigs will need as much help, or have real trouble, dealing with Monroe when he catches it in the low post position, as I expected. Also, while he is active on the boards and as a defender, in neither category does he scare people.

So, if this were draw poker, I would not, looking only at this season, be throwing in my Zoubek card even if I knew the Monroe card was on the top of the deck. And, the funny thing is, that for the first time in the history of this board, I think it safe to assume that there will be 100 percent agreement with my view if I am right. (No, Jumbo, this really does say something, granted, not well, not close to well, but the meaning, when you think about it, is crystal clear. Crystal.)

It's not as crazy as it sounds. Adjusted for time, Zoubek+Thomas outscores and significantly outrebounds Monroe. Thomas and Zoubek also have a much higher FG%. Not to mention Zouthom gets 10 fouls a game, Monroe only gets 5

mapei
01-01-2009, 05:22 PM
It's not as crazy as it sounds. Adjusted for time, Zoubek+Thomas outscores and significantly outrebounds Monroe. Thomas and Zoubek also have a much higher FG%. Not to mention Zouthom gets 10 fouls a game, Monroe only gets 5

Well, yeah, but I would take Monroe+Thomas over Zoubs, too. :) Thomas seems significantly better (except for FTs and foul trouble) than Vaughan, so when you look at it as starter+sub vs. starter+sub, Duke may well have the edge at the five. And at just about every other position, IMO, though it's close at the 1, given that Greg P has been a bit subpar so far this year and, as gw pointed out, Clark has looked a pretty capable sub for Gtown.

That said, Vaughan played a lot better vs. UConn than we have come to expect, so I'm hoping that the Hoyas' strength at the 5 when Monroe comes out will prove better than I've seen most of the year.

greybeard
01-02-2009, 12:08 PM
Well, yeah, but I would take Monroe+Thomas over Zoubs, too. :) Thomas seems significantly better (except for FTs and foul trouble) than Vaughan, so when you look at it as starter+sub vs. starter+sub, Duke may well have the edge at the five. And at just about every other position, IMO, though it's close at the 1, given that Greg P has been a bit subpar so far this year and, as gw pointed out, Clark has looked a pretty capable sub for Gtown.

That said, Vaughan played a lot better vs. UConn than we have come to expect, so I'm hoping that the Hoyas' strength at the 5 when Monroe comes out will prove better than I've seen most of the year.

Zoubek can make a difference in a way that neither Monroe nor Thomas can and that difference can be significant, very, very significant.

Even in 15-20 minutes a game, could be a difference maker in at least a few big games, maybe in the ACC tournament, maybe in the dance. Could get Duke much farther than otherwise.

When a man of Zoubek's size and girth and basketball skills makes the kinds of receptions he has been making this season near the rim, it puts tremendous pressure on the defense. Softens it up in the same way good body shots do early in a prize fight.

One on one, after such a catch, big advantage to Zoubek. He will score at a high percentage and draw fouls, one or two, on a big, altering perhaps the way the other big plays the rest of the game. Zoubek, when he makes a catch and it does not feel right, is not making mistakes; in fact, he is making plays. And, teams are even double-teaming him at times, or at least perimeter players are pausing, thinking about helping, which they oh so do not want to do (the pass to McClure).

Now, Monroe is a terrific inside passer and terrific off the bounce from the upper ranges of the foul lane. He is not what I expected off the catch down low. He has not shown in that aspect of the game, not a lot anyway. Now, maybe he could play in that way more effectively; watching him from a 10th row mid court seat against Memphis, I did not see much in that aspect of his game. And, he did set low, it was not like that was a part of the floor where his teammates were not looking to get him the ball. When they did, it was not in terrific position and Monroe didn't look to initiate to the basket off those catches, at least not so I noticed.

So. I stand by what I said. Zoubek gives Duke a dimension that that have not had in some time. It is not the consistent go-to, make it a BIG part of your offense dimension that Shelden, or Boozer or Brand created, but it is a 7" 1' dimension. He makes those kind of catches against Carolina, I think he can hurt them in ways that they really don't like.

So, if Zoubek scores 2-4 baskets on very high percentage finishes, makes 2 or 3 foul shots on very high percentages, draws a foul or two on a big, does not make misstakes, and disrupts put backs or charges to the basket by guys in the 6'7" on down range while he is in, converts an easy follow up basket into a take away and maybe a runout, in 15-20 minutes on the floor, he could be EVERYTHING everyone here has been complaining that Duke hasn't had, and maybe more, even though he don't DUNK and even though he will make no one's ALL WHATEVER list and there are dozens of big men who are better, whatever the hell that means.

Not saying that all this happens, but I would not bet against it either.