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wbs2455
12-27-2008, 05:42 PM
Chris Collins was at John Wall's game this weekend at the GSK tournament, and since this weekend falls in a dead period, that would be a no-no. Duke has issued a press release and will apparently self-report the violation, which I suppose is better than letting someone else call you out on it. They claim ignorance on the dead period, which is a little sad, IMO. I hope Collins knows better from now on at least...

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/duke-to-self-report-violation

CameronBornAndBred
12-27-2008, 06:07 PM
Good to hear we reported it, but the ignorance plea is really wrong. The Devils are gonna catch tons of grief for this, if not worse. Especially sad that the infraction was from Collins, a coach at the top of the Duke heap.

Coballs
12-27-2008, 07:58 PM
On the other hand, since there has been little recent noise on the recruiting front, at least we know that the staff continues to be involved with or, at least, is still interested in him. Hopefully, this foolish slip-up won't hinder our recruitment of Wall.

JasonEvans
12-27-2008, 08:03 PM
This kind of thing happens with some degree of regularity to many programs. It is rare at Duke, sure, but is not a huge deal. My bet is that Duke will do something like limit the number of visits Collins takes to events in the coming year or something like that and it will be all taken care of.

That said, it is a pity he did not pay more attention to exactly when the "dead period" was so he could avoid this somewhat embarrassing mistake. The interesting thing will be to see how much attention this gets. Had it happened to West Virginia or Clemson or Illinois or Texas it would not be that bug a deal. But, Duke is the white knight of college basketball and this will get more attention as a result, I suspect.

--Jason "lets see how high this gets on ESPN's college basketball page" Evans

speedevil2001
12-27-2008, 08:07 PM
On the other hand, since there has been little recent noise on the recruiting front, at least we know that the staff continues to be involved with or, at least, is still interested in him. Hopefully, this foolish slip-up won't hinder our recruitment of Wall.

ok, i understand the whole dead period for recruiting, but why is a dead period of 3 days dec 24-26 such a big deal? christmas is on the 25th. if kids are not playing basketball and need the days to spend with family and friends, then i get it, but kids play basketball on those days too and coaches should be allowed to watch the games.

btw: does anyone know how kelly and wall performed in the game?

CathyCA
12-27-2008, 08:15 PM
GRRRRR. . . how hard would it have been to have X'd out those days in red on the coach's desk calendar?

This mistake was completely avoidable. I hope it doesn't cost Duke too dearly.

BlueintheFace
12-27-2008, 09:11 PM
There won't be much in the way of punishment, but come on Chris. This really was avoidable. I'm glad we are self-reporting though, really glad.

.... maybe the Duke staff just wanted to make a statement to John Wall about how committed they are to making him a priority;)

Wheat/"/"/"
12-27-2008, 09:51 PM
Like Jason said, somewhat embarrassing mistake, but nobody really cares about it but nit picking fans.
All he did was watch a game, right? There was no direct contact...correct?
Whatever....

Wheat/"/"/"

KenTankerous
12-28-2008, 07:44 AM
It doesn't make sense that Collins didn't know this was a dead period. I mean, I'm a newby to the ways of K, but his ship is much too tight to allow this type of thing. Then again, purposely violating NCAA recruiting violations to impress a potential point guard makes even less sense. Now a big man? Maybe. (I kid, I kid!)

I find the best way to gauge the heaviest fallout for any Duke bad news is InsideCarolina. The thread there argues between the two opposing ideas but most agree that Duke fans' reactions are the best part of this story. They are enjoying the squirming. That is, they were for about a half a page until, like most threads over there, they devolved into "I know you are but what am I!" name calling.

The DBR, like most things Duke, is so smart and civil.

wilko
12-28-2008, 09:17 AM
It sends a message all by itself....

Maybe Collins had those dates blocked off and knew exactly what he was doing. A calculated risk to make an attention getting impression.

We want this wall guy so bad that we will push the envelope everyway we can.... Risk exposure of a minor violation to get some attention....

If the penalty is a restriction in visits or something of that sort by Collins, well then, I can sort of see it as a calcualted risk to land the top player in the class.

To let him know how badly he is wanted..

Kimist
12-28-2008, 09:19 AM
I have a very hard time swallowing the "Collins didn't know about it" excuse.

Heck, the Iron Dukes mails me a brochure each year listing all of the permissable activities for contact with any potential Duke athlete. Certainly the information and rules available to the Duke coaching staff would be far more comprehensive.

And, as noted earlier, to prevent any "oops" just draw a line through the Christmas dates on your calendar - paper or electronic.

Finally, you know the Duke haters are going to have an absolute field day with this item, even though it is a "minor" infraction.

k

CameronBornAndBred
12-28-2008, 10:38 AM
It sends a message all by itself....

Maybe Collins had those dates blocked off and knew exactly what he was doing. A calculated risk to make an attention getting impression.

We want this wall guy so bad that we will push the envelope everyway we can.... Risk exposure of a minor violation to get some attention....

If the penalty is a restriction in visits or something of that sort by Collins, well then, I can sort of see it as a calcualted risk to land the top player in the class.

To let him know how badly he is wanted..
Why on earth would you willingly go to a school that willingly breaks the rules? You would potentially be on a team that is going to have it's postseason taken away. I'll swallow ignorance before I swallow we did it on purpose. Neither should happen though.

buddy
12-28-2008, 10:38 AM
If Collins "forgot" then shame on him, but if he "didn't know" then shame on K and the program administrators. There is no excuse for "not knowing" a recruiting rule. I too get the Iron Dukes mailing about permissible and impermissible contacts. (When my daughter was a student athlete I even checked with the program about whether I could take her teammates for a meal.) My guess is that Chris "just forgot", but even that is inexcusable.

Indoor66
12-28-2008, 10:41 AM
I note in a prior post that he attended the game with his dad. Maybe it was a holiday season outing for father and son and nothing to do with recruiting. Maybe a simple (though foolish) error.

watzone
12-28-2008, 12:04 PM
Before some of you hang Chris out to dry, consider the "Holdaze" and ask youself if you have ever gotten mixed up with times and dates. I know some folks who have made a mistake around this time of year in their job.

No Duke Coach would ever willingly break any rule. And BTW, this happens a lot. Schools are constantly reporting infractions to the NCAA, but this being Duke makes it national news and or headline fodder for some.

It was a human mistake involving miscommunication and it happens. So save the venom and research how often this happens in college athletics. This is the case of a media member making it out to be bigger news than it really is.

cascadedevil
12-28-2008, 12:31 PM
Does anyone have any data on how often this has happened at Duke, and when? Or how often and when it has happened at Carolina or at a school like Bucknell (just trying to pick a school that I believe has a reputation of doing things the right way)?

This does not seem like a big deal. However, if it is the first secondary violation under Coach K (or if there has not been a secondary violation at Carolina since before Dean Smith), then it is really a shame for such a silly mistake to give up even a small part of the higher ground from which Duke has been able to view college basketball recruiting.

Gunnar Kaufman
12-28-2008, 12:50 PM
Can't blame this on media muckraking or on forgetfulness.

Chris Collins broke a rule. Collins and Duke have admitted and reported as much. If there are consequences to bear, so be it.

You can't break the rules and then call them irrelevant, and Duke knows that.

watzone
12-28-2008, 12:52 PM
Does anyone have any data on how often this has happened at Duke, and when? Or how often and when it has happened at Carolina or at a school like Bucknell (just trying to pick a school that I believe has a reputation of doing things the right way)?

This does not seem like a big deal. However, if it is the first secondary violation under Coach K (or if there has not been a secondary violation at Carolina since before Dean Smith), then it is really a shame for such a silly mistake to give up even a small part of the higher ground from which Duke has been able to view college basketball recruiting.


Let me reflect on the situation which happened with Roy at Kansas. He gave his graduating seniors a parting gift which is a violation and did not self report it. It later came out. It's one of many examples of rule infractions be it silly or not.

The problem with tracking these incidents down is that most of them never make it to ESPN. As Jason Evans stated, it'll be interesting to see how far this climbs in the news in a day when little things be made to seem so juicy.

Chris and his Dad seemed to be there simply watching the event as Father and son.

The rules are as such where coaches can converse with say, Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly in that they have signed letters of intent. They can in no way make contact with a prospect which has not committed, like John Wall, save a friendly nod.

Nobody has inferred that they did anything like the latter.

I can see that some fans desire to discuss this for they find it interesting. OTOH, I feel Duke is being held to a higher standard than many would hold themselves in their job. It's a case of a mistake and it's too "Enquirer" like for some to avoid.

Still, if one wants to research this further, you will find that a whole lot of mistakes happen at all schools from time to time.

Bluedog
12-28-2008, 01:05 PM
--Jason "lets see how high this gets on ESPN's college basketball page" Evans

It still hasn't made it to ESPN.com as far as I can see....Definitely surprising to me!


We want this wall guy so bad that we will push the envelope everyway we can.... Risk exposure of a minor violation to get some attention....

I don't think that's the case considering we haven't even offered Wall a scholarship yet, as far as I know. It seems that the holdout is for academic reasons, though, and not basketball-related. But you can't say we want him so badly if we haven't even told him he'd have a scholarship.

wilko
12-28-2008, 01:23 PM
I don't think that's the case considering we haven't even offered Wall a scholarship yet, as far as I know. It seems that the holdout is for academic reasons, though, and not basketball-related. But you can't say we want him so badly if we haven't even told him he'd have a scholarship.

Yer prolly right, just trying to look at it from a different perspective. Nothing more nothing less.

grad_devil
12-28-2008, 01:53 PM
I'm the Faculty Athletic Representative (FAR) at my school, and I sign between 3-8 secondary violations every year. We self-report these, as do most schools in our conference and across the nation. This happens at nearly every school, every year.

The punishments for most of these violations are "Coach xxxxx will review the rule, and promise to never do it again". Really harsh penalties :)

The red flag to me is when schools report NO secondary violations. This just means they aren't policing themselves at all. They happen. Everywhere. There are so many rules and nuances, that it's near impossible to avoid. There are a couple of D-II conferences in our region that report zero violations year in and year out....yeah right :)

Having said that, the FARs at each institution must give coaches a yearly examination on recruiting rules. Each one must pass with an 80% (32 out of 40) to prove they know the regulations (and to certify that they can recruit), so ignorance of the rules is never really a defense.

--grad_devil

throatybeard
12-28-2008, 02:11 PM
So save the venom

I haven't seen any venom in this thread.

_Gary
12-28-2008, 04:30 PM
To probably no one's surprise, this incident (if we can call such a small infraction an "incident") has now made it to ESPN News as a note on the side of the screen that pops up every few minutes.

patentgeek
12-28-2008, 04:51 PM
Just to add a slightly different perspective, I have attended various days of the GSK holiday tournament for about 10 years now, and it's very common for college head coaches and their assistants to attend games. Also, this year the tournament is rather oddly scheduled - games on Friday, Saturday, Monday and Tuesday, whereas in the past (at least to my recollection) it has typically been three consecutive days. So it's somewhat odd that the first day of this tournament falls in a dead period, but the rest of the tournament does not.

I'm not trying to deny or downplay the violation, but I can easily see how it could happen, particularly for an assistant coach who's attended this tournament (which is local for him) numerous times in the past - it may simply have never occurred to Coach Collins that the first day of the tournament might be during a blackout period.

RelativeWays
12-28-2008, 05:43 PM
UNC fans shouldn't make too much of this considering that Huckleberry Hound got rung up for a secondary recruiting violation during his last year at Kansas. Though, for them, if it didn't happen at UNC, they can pretend it didn't happen at all.

-bdbd
12-28-2008, 07:21 PM
This is more embarrassing than actually newsworthy. It is great that we self-reported, but it was still our (Coach Collins') screw up.
Several thoughts on this thread above:

First, it is embarrassing for Duke - b/c WE hold ourselves to a higher standard. The fact that it was clearly accidental does not excuse the slip up. It happens, many professionals do slip, but I would expect better.

Second, contrary to a couple posters above, there is NO WAY Collins "did this on purpose to send a message to Wall." Duke values its pristine image way too much to risk that valuable rep on a cheap stunt.

Third, I can think of a few "bend the rules but don't totally break them" coaches/schools who might do this sort of thing. But, for better or worse, Duke seems almost religious in its adherence to (and exceeding) the rules standards.

Fourth, I agree with Watzone and Jason Evans -- most likely Duke will take "self-corrective action," such as limiting Collins' contacts in the coming months. No way this warrants NCAA attention.

Fifth, for those newcomers here, Duke actually DID have a real infraction back in the early 70's when a booster, as I recall, gave a leather jacket or some such to a high school Senior who wound up down the road at NCSU. You might have heard of him -- David Thompson... I think the school got something like a year of probation, and a lot of red faces. Just nothing of significant note infraction-wise in the last (apx) 35 years.

Finally, I really like that Duke holds itself to these higher standards. Yes, it probably has cost us a recruit or two over time, but the pristine rep has also WON us some recruits as well.

Just my 2 cents.

-BDBD

Indoor66
12-28-2008, 07:44 PM
Fifth, for those newcomers here, Duke actually DID have a real infraction back in the early 70's when a booster, as I recall, gave a leather jacket or some such to a high school Senior who wound up down the road at NCSU. You might have heard of him -- David Thompson... I think the school got something like a year of probation, and a lot of red faces. Just nothing of significant note infraction-wise in the last (apx) 35 years.

Finally, I really like that Duke holds itself to these higher standards. Yes, it probably has cost us a recruit or two over time, but the pristine rep has also WON us some recruits as well.

Just my 2 cents.

-BDBD

It was a sport jacket from a Duke fan in Charlotte to David Thompson that let to the Duke one year probation. To my knowledge, that is the only probation or serious penalty ever assessed against Duke.

Jim3k
12-28-2008, 08:57 PM
It was a sport jacket from a Duke fan in Charlotte to David Thompson that let to the Duke one year probation. To my knowledge, that is the only probation or serious penalty ever assessed against Duke.

I also remember that the alum involved was trying to do a good turn. IIRC, he held degrees from both Duke and State and he lent the jacket to Thompson so he would look appropriately dressed for admissions office interviews at both schools (maybe on the same day?). David didn't own a sports jacket, so the alum allowed him to use one of his.

Probation was way too harsh for that.

CameronBornAndBred
12-28-2008, 09:05 PM
I honestly had no idea about the Thompson story, I wonder how the same events would play out now. It's easier to judge when you have hindsight on the facts. Still, what a neat tale to tell.

77devil
12-28-2008, 09:18 PM
Before some of you hang Chris out to dry, consider the "Holdaze" and ask youself if you have ever gotten mixed up with times and dates. I know some folks who have made a mistake around this time of year in their job.

No Duke Coach would ever willingly break any rule. And BTW, this happens a lot. Schools are constantly reporting infractions to the NCAA, but this being Duke makes it national news and or headline fodder for some.

It was a human mistake involving miscommunication and it happens. So save the venom and research how often this happens in college athletics. This is the case of a media member making it out to be bigger news than it really is.

It would be simple enough to have a process whereby all the coaches/staff must pre-clear attendance at any event through an independent compliance check within the basketball operations office.

77devil
12-28-2008, 09:21 PM
It was a sport jacket from a Duke fan in Charlotte to David Thompson that let to the Duke one year probation. To my knowledge, that is the only probation or serious penalty ever assessed against Duke.

Right article of clothing but wrong city. I know the perp.

geraldsneighbor
12-28-2008, 10:39 PM
I'm still surprised we are recruiting Wall being he is a PG most-likely a 1 or 2 year player. That is something I thought Duke was shying away from in light of Josh, Deng, and Livingston. Is there really genuine interest of Duke's behalf?

gep
12-29-2008, 12:50 AM
Just curious... suppose Wall, or anyone else playing in the game, was not on Duke's recruiting radar... would that still be a secondary violation, especially if it's an annual father-son get-together at a high school game, just for the fun / family thing over Christmas?

Jim3k
12-29-2008, 12:59 AM
I'm still surprised we are recruiting Wall being he is a PG most-likely a 1 or 2 year player. That is something I thought Duke was shying away from in light of Josh, Deng, and Livingston. Is there really genuine interest of Duke's behalf?

Maybe it wasn't Chris doing the scouting. Quite possibly it was Doug. After all, he's still a connected pro coach. Maybe he filed a report for draft purposes... :rolleyes: I mean after all, Duke wouldn't be interested in a one and done...right? So Chris was there by accident. Case closed.

Or...maybe, it's just a mistake like everyone suggests and the odd dead period wasn't clearly understood.

Trouble is, the NCAA doesn't care. Rulez is rulez and don' you forgit it!

I go for the 'I promise I won't do it again" penalty.

Olympic Fan
12-29-2008, 10:53 AM
I also remember that the alum involved was trying to do a good turn. IIRC, he held degrees from both Duke and State and he lent the jacket to Thompson so he would look appropriately dressed for admissions office interviews at both schools (maybe on the same day?). David didn't own a sports jacket, so the alum allowed him to use one of his.

Probation was way too harsh for that.

This story, like the Charlie Scott restaurant story, is so deeply into myth that it's almost impossible to straighten out.

FWIW, the booster in question was not a Duke grad. He lived in Shelby, not Charlotte. When Bucky Waters was recruiting Thompson, he was looking for somebody in the area to help him. Carl James, who had been Bill Murray's chief football recruiter before succeeding Eddie Cameron as athletic director, suggested the booster to Bucky -- he had helped Duke with a number of football recruits.

The booster, acting on Duke's behalf, committed two violations without Waters' knowledge. He did buy Thompson a cheap sports coat for his school's athletic banquet. The coat cost $21 -- in 1970 dollars, about the equivilent to a $50-75 coat today. He also provided Thompson and his coach a ride to the ACC Tournament -- ruled illegal transportation.

Since the booster was acting as an agent for Duke, the school was responsible for his actions. Ignorance of the rules has never been a valid excuse for the NCAA. Bucky probably should have kept a closer watch on the guy, but he apparently figured than since he had helped recruit football prospects before, he knew the rules.

Duke drew a one-year postseason ban for the 1972-73 season. NC State got the exact same penalty for committing 31 violations, most regarding Thompson ... a few involved a Purdue recruit named John Garrett (a guy Duke also recruited).

To be fair, all of the State violations were of the same level as the two Duke violations -- in fact, one involved a very similar illegal transportation charge. Former NC State assistant coach Charlie Bryant had gone into banking in Gastonia and he provided Thompson with a free ride to Raleigh. Other violations included an illegal tryout (assistant coach Eddie Biedenbach joined a pickup game with Thompson) and illegal housing benefits (when Thompson attended Sloan's camp, he slept on the floor of the dorm room of one of his former prep teammates). The only tangible benefit was a free ticket to a Jackson Five concert ... which he received long after he had signed with State.

Interesting point -- with Duke and State both on probation in 1973, ACC officials worried what would happen if they met in the ACC Tournament title game. Plans were made to play a consolation game between the semifinal losers to determine the league's one NCAA entry. That became unnecessary when the two teams ended up in the same side the the tourney bracket (and Duke lost in the first round anyway).

As for Collins' violation, count me among those who refuse to believe it was calculated to impress John Wall. It was a very sloppy piece of work and Collins -- and Duke -- deserve the embarrassment it has generated. True, everybody commits their share of secondary violations (for instance, UNC has committed ... and not self-reported ... one each summer -- the illegal contact between UNC pros and future recruits in 2007; the coaches watching the Barak Obama pickup game in 2008). It's still embarrassing because we hold Duke to a higher standard.

Violations such as these only become a problem when they are systematic and hidden. One or two inadvertant illegal phone calls to recruits, reported to the NCAA, warren a slap on the wrist. Widespread illegal calls, hidden from the NCAA, then continued after exposure and a minor penalty, warrent what happened to Kelvin Sampson.

jv001
12-29-2008, 01:45 PM
This story, like the Charlie Scott restaurant story, is so deeply into myth that it's almost impossible to straighten out.

FWIW, the booster in question was not a Duke grad. He lived in Shelby, not Charlotte. When Bucky Waters was recruiting Thompson, he was looking for somebody in the area to help him. Carl James, who had been Bill Murray's chief football recruiter before succeeding Eddie Cameron as athletic director, suggested the booster to Bucky -- he had helped Duke with a number of football recruits.

The booster, acting on Duke's behalf, committed two violations without Waters' knowledge. He did buy Thompson a cheap sports coat for his school's athletic banquet. The coat cost $21 -- in 1970 dollars, about the equivilent to a $50-75 coat today. He also provided Thompson and his coach a ride to the ACC Tournament -- ruled illegal transportation.

Since the booster was acting as an agent for Duke, the school was responsible for his actions. Ignorance of the rules has never been a valid excuse for the NCAA. Bucky probably should have kept a closer watch on the guy, but he apparently figured than since he had helped recruit football prospects before, he knew the rules.

Duke drew a one-year postseason ban for the 1972-73 season. NC State got the exact same penalty for committing 31 violations, most regarding Thompson ... a few involved a Purdue recruit named John Garrett (a guy Duke also recruited).

To be fair, all of the State violations were of the same level as the two Duke violations -- in fact, one involved a very similar illegal transportation charge. Former NC State assistant coach Charlie Bryant had gone into banking in Gastonia and he provided Thompson with a free ride to Raleigh. Other violations included an illegal tryout (assistant coach Eddie Biedenbach joined a pickup game with Thompson) and illegal housing benefits (when Thompson attended Sloan's camp, he slept on the floor of the dorm room of one of his former prep teammates). The only tangible benefit was a free ticket to a Jackson Five concert ... which he received long after he had signed with State.

Interesting point -- with Duke and State both on probation in 1973, ACC officials worried what would happen if they met in the ACC Tournament title game. Plans were made to play a consolation game between the semifinal losers to determine the league's one NCAA entry. That became unnecessary when the two teams ended up in the same side the the tourney bracket (and Duke lost in the first round anyway).

As for Collins' violation, count me among those who refuse to believe it was calculated to impress John Wall. It was a very sloppy piece of work and Collins -- and Duke -- deserve the embarrassment it has generated. True, everybody commits their share of secondary violations (for instance, UNC has committed ... and not self-reported ... one each summer -- the illegal contact between UNC pros and future recruits in 2007; the coaches watching the Barak Obama pickup game in 2008). It's still embarrassing because we hold Duke to a higher standard.

Violations such as these only become a problem when they are systematic and hidden. One or two inadvertant illegal phone calls to recruits, reported to the NCAA, warren a slap on the wrist. Widespread illegal calls, hidden from the NCAA, then continued after exposure and a minor penalty, warrent what happened to Kelvin Sampson.

Thanks for the information on The DT sport coat violation. I remembered some of the story but not all of it. As far as Collins not knowing the dates for the tourney, he should have. Duke reported it and let's hope it's over with. Go Duke!

snowdenscold
12-29-2008, 02:11 PM
Having said that, the FARs at each institution must give coaches a yearly examination on recruiting rules. Each one must pass with an 80% (32 out of 40) to prove they know the regulations (and to certify that they can recruit), so ignorance of the rules is never really a defense.



Wouldn't that mean up to 8 out of 40 times ignorance is a defense? ;)