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View Full Version : MBB: Marquette 68, North Carolina State 65



wolfpackdevil
12-22-2008, 07:34 PM
Good game going on ESPNU.

Tie game and Brandon Costner has 13 points in the first 10 minutes.

Good game, post stuff here.

tbyers11
12-22-2008, 09:25 PM
I only got home in time to see the last 8 minutes but that was a great finish. That was a cold-blooded three by Dominic James to win it for Marquette with 0.4 seconds left. James is a very good player but 3-point shooting isn't one of his strengths. His is very streaky from beyond the arc, but man was he on fire in the second half.

If Costner returns to his freshman year form and continues to play like that NCSU can cause problems for some teams. I don't think they have enough quality players to make the NCAA's, but they will be a tough team to play at the RBC. It would have been nice for the ACC's profile to have a bottom half team beat a ranked Big East team, but at least NCSU seemed to have some fire.

If anyone else watched the game did they find Jason (I refuse to call him Jay) William's continually referring to the players as Mr. James, Mr. Costner or Mr. Matthews extremely annoying?

wolfpackdevil
12-22-2008, 09:31 PM
Wow! Hell of a game!

Coster was on fire! He made almost every shot he took, and probaly should have taken more than he did. 24 points, but it felt like 40.

James was very good, and made many clutch shots.

I still think this was a good game for the pack, and if they can come back strong the next couple games, I think they can go down to Gainsville and beat the Gators.

Good game for the Pack

Bob Green
12-22-2008, 11:27 PM
A tough loss for State. I didn't see the game but it sounds like it was a real barn burner. Too bad Marquette pulled it out as it would have been a big win for the ACC. I'm no State fan but I always pull for ACC teams, and especially Big Four teams, to win their OOC contests.

davekay1971
12-22-2008, 11:53 PM
Good game for State, but a very tough loss. Makes you wonder how many good guards are going to put dagger-3's into State this season (Curry's 30 footer, then this...).

State is going to be much better than they were last year. This is the 2nd top 25 team they've gone down the wire with. One of the things that has hurt them is that they don't really have an absolute go-to guy at the end of the game. McCauley and Costner are probably their two best options. But neither seems like a guy, at this moment, that you're confident will get a bucket or draw a foul at the end of the game. Of course, McCauley DID hit a Laettner-like turnaround to tie it up at the end...unfortunately a few tenths of a second after time had expired.

riverside6
12-23-2008, 08:26 AM
The more I see NC State, the more I question Sidney Lowe's coaching ability. We track something called Usage % (% of offensive possessions in which a player is a factor) over at our site and coming into the game Brandon Costner led the ACC. Despite playing the game of his life, Costner actually saw his usage % go down.

I took a look at +/- for the NC State/Marquette game too (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_NewsBreaker_External.asp?NB=1487) and decided that Sidney Lowe had a bad game last night.

Diddy
12-23-2008, 12:44 PM
I don't know how closely you all follow non-Duke recruiting, but there is a huge story in the recruiting world going into the new year.

DeMarcus Cousins, one of the best pure posts in America, was at the heart of a recruiting storm this year. He grew up near UAB, and has had a long term relationship with their Coach Davis, formerly of IU, who has long had good relationships with Alabama coaches, AAU programs, etc.

Last summer is was a Coup, although a wholly expected one, when Cousins COMMITTED to UAB. Big get. Cousins is a 6-9, 250lb beast. Think a less skilled, more athletic Kevin Love. He isn't the outlet passer Love was, but he is a solid passer. Good O, Good D, and can be dominant at college and beyond.

There was a huge wrinkle during the Fall Signing period. Cousins refused to sign a LOI. He was committing to Coach Davis, not UAB. As such he demanded a provision in his LOI so that he could be released from the LOI should Davis not be the coach at UAB. UAB officials refused this provision, so Cousins didn't sign.

UAB is reluctant, because Cousins is a certain one-and-done. They don't anticipate firing Davis, who is doing a good job, but rather that he will be hired away by a better program. They would then hold Cousins's feet to the fire, and force him to come to UAB. If he transfered, he would be forced to sit a year, which a 1-and-doner would be loath to do. He could go to Europe, but that experiment has yet to bear fruit. Also, the European game does not favor physical play, which is Cousins's forte, so that is a less palatable option. Should UAB accede to Cousins's demand, it would be a signal to other programs that not only is Mike Davis a good coach, but that his hiring would also guarantee the services of one of the very best players in the nation (No. 2 at Rivals, but top 6 everywhere). A couple of other players who had committed followed Cousins's lead and refused to sign. While not surefire superstars, they are solid players at the high major level. A Davis hire would guarantee at least 2 players who could contribute immediately. One as a franchise player, and another who at the very least is a key role player (but who would improve and be on campus for multiple years).

How this relates to NCSU is very clear. I don't thinkg NCSU will even sniff the NCAAs this year. They might be shut out of the NIT. Costner is playing OK, but he is a headcase, so who knows if that lasts. NCSU has trended sharply downward since Sid's first year. Firing Sid and hiring Davis would lead to an upgrade in talent immediately, and a solid coach as well.

It would be a gutsy move by NCSU, but it could happen. NCSU's incomming class isn't great, but it is not like it would be decimated should Sid be fired. There might (definitely) be a bidding war for Davis this spring, as several wobbly high majors try to upgrade their coach and talent.

And don't try and turn this into something tawdry or illicit. Cousins is a young man who has identified the Coach he wants to play for. He asked for a very reasonable provision to be added to the LOI, which is a draconian, one-sided document used to hose HS recruits every year. If Davis should benefit from his relationship with a recruit, more power to him. After what IU did to him, he deserves a lucky break.

NCSU could do worse than Davis, even if he didn't come with a stud recruit. Sid isn't getting it done, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

davekay1971
12-23-2008, 01:33 PM
NCSU could do worse than Davis, even if he didn't come with a stud recruit. Sid isn't getting it done, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Long post, interesting information. Conclusions...mmmm

Last year was obviously a bad year, and Lowe was largely to blame for that. However, NCSU is playing well so far this year, their only two losses being very close ones to top 25 teams. You dismiss the recruiting that Lowe is building right now, but NCSU has a top 20 recruiting class for 2009 with 3 top-100 prospects with Favors and Wall still unsigned and still considering NCSU. For 2010, Lowe is building a good class with Ryan Harrow and CJ Leslie and other prospects considering. Whether Lowe will ultimately end up being a good game coach is to be determined. He's done some good things, and made some mistakes. With all that in mind, I'm not sure how you conclude that there's been a sharp downward trend at NCSU, or that it's not going to change soon.

To recommend changing out Lowe at this point for Davis, a coach who DID allow a steady decline at his first head coaching job, based largely on the hope that he MAY come with a 1 and done recruit attached, doesn't sound like good reasoning to me.

Diddy
12-23-2008, 02:53 PM
Yes, NCSU has only lost to top 25 squads. There is a valid argument that those are the best two teams they have played. Once they get to the ACC, we could see a steep decline.

Also, there is a great chance that the three best teams in the ACC will be NCSU's Tobacco road cohabitors. Think that will sit well with NCSU's alumni? Me neither.

As for recruiting, you have a valid point. NCSU's recruiting isn't bad, per se, but it is clearly the worst of all the Tobacco Road teams. Duke and UNC are both top 10 this and next year, and Wake is recruing at least as well as NCSU. I don't really see NCSU challenging any of the NC ACC powers for the next couple of years.

However, you are correct about John Wall. His committment would save Sid's job, no if ands or buts. But Favors is a fever dream of NCSU fans. He is down to UGA or GT. He is listing NCSU for a free visit. Which I do not blame him for. But the pack is clearly behind the GA schools, according to everybody who doesn't support NCSU.

If Sid's team flatlines in the ACC this season, especially if the team quits on him like most of them did last year, NCSU will have to consider making a change.

And there is no IF about Cousins. Unless Davis is on an NBA staff next year, he will be coaching Demarcus Cousins, wherever that may be.

davekay1971
12-23-2008, 04:33 PM
Absolutely agree that the team quitting on Sid this year would have the Pack supporters looking for a change. I've watched several NCSU games this year, and this teams does not look like it's about to quit. They play hard, especially on the defensive end.

I'm not convinced that Lowe is the long term answer. I'm admittedly biased toward the guy because of the joy I had watching he and Whittenburg in 1983. Even with that bias, I see him right now as a good (potentially great) recruiter and a so-so game coach. Coaching is like anything in life - you can get better at it with practice and effort. Lowe may end up being a very good game coach...he may not. All I'm sure of there is that it's too early to tell.

Of course he's behind the other Tobacco Road teams right now. Everybody but UNC and Duke is behind UNC and Duke, and Wake just brought in a remarkable recruiting haul. As for NCSU's position behind Wake, Lowe is keeping pace (or perhaps doing a little better than) Dino for 2009 and 2010...but he wasn't brought in to beat Wake. The Pack fans want to challenge Duke and UNC, and ultimately if he can't do that he'll be shown the door. But even the Pack fans know that he's got to have a few years to build his program. As long as his team improves, especially if his recruiting classes continue to be competitive, he's got time.

My main problem was the argument (at least I think you were making the argument) that they should give up on him now and jump ship to grab up Davis and his prize recruit. IMHO, I don't think switching head coaches to get a particular player is the way to go...and Davis hiimself isn't proven enough as a coach or program builder to be worth dumping Lowe for.

wolfpackdevil
12-23-2008, 04:37 PM
Yes, NCSU has only lost to top 25 squads. There is a valid argument that those are the best two teams they have played. Once they get to the ACC, we could see a steep decline.

Also, there is a great chance that the three best teams in the ACC will be NCSU's Tobacco road cohabitors. Think that will sit well with NCSU's alumni? Me neither.

As for recruiting, you have a valid point. NCSU's recruiting isn't bad, per se, but it is clearly the worst of all the Tobacco Road teams. Duke and UNC are both top 10 this and next year, and Wake is recruing at least as well as NCSU. I don't really see NCSU challenging any of the NC ACC powers for the next couple of years.

However, you are correct about John Wall. His committment would save Sid's job, no if ands or buts. But Favors is a fever dream of NCSU fans. He is down to UGA or GT. He is listing NCSU for a free visit. Which I do not blame him for. But the pack is clearly behind the GA schools, according to everybody who doesn't support NCSU.

If Sid's team flatlines in the ACC this season, especially if the team quits on him like most of them did last year, NCSU will have to consider making a change.

And there is no IF about Cousins. Unless Davis is on an NBA staff next year, he will be coaching Demarcus Cousins, wherever that may be.

Do I need to mention that he has a freshman in Julius Mays who is looking great so far.

And NCSU is still high on John Wall and Derrick Favors recruiting lists.

I think people need to calm down. This is only his third year. His first years was with all of Herb's players, and he beat Duke, and almost made it to the NCAA Tourny. Last Year, he had tons of talent, but no team at all. They didn't play together. And yes, that was his fault. But from what I have seen this year, they are like a family.

It's only his 3rd year and his recruiting has been great. (I have no idea what you are talking about.)

Lets first talk about JJ Hickson. Hes was only a lottery pick after 1 year of college.


We also have Richard Howell and Lorenzo Brown, 2 of the top players at their positions. And yea, they still have a chance at getting John Wall and Derrick Favors. He has recruited the state of Georgia like that is where NCSU is located.

And if State plays like they did last night, they will have no problem being an at-large in the NCAA's. And if you looked at the stats, McCauley or Fells never got going. They were only in it because of Costner.

So even though I do like and respect Mike Davis, it is not time for Sid to leave yet period.