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Diddy
12-20-2008, 04:02 PM
First, they didn't switch here in W-S, so chew on that everyone.

Great game accros that board, but it only highlights that we had no business losing to Michigan.

I would've like to see Plumlee and Olek get more PT in this blowout. Nothing but garbage minutes.

Great D and great O.

jpfrizzle
12-20-2008, 04:02 PM
Discuss today's game here!

Ben63
12-20-2008, 04:05 PM
Great game today. Stepped on their throat early and put it away. Fantastic games by Jon and Zoubek. FT shooting was excellent. If we keep playing like that, we will be tough to beat this year.

heyman25
12-20-2008, 04:08 PM
Great 1st half.Xavier is too good not to play better but being outscored 40 to 27 must be something for the coaching staff to ponder. Zoubek gets better and better. Henderson was in it today. Scheyer was flawless.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
12-20-2008, 04:08 PM
We lost the second half by 13 points. I think we were lucky we caught Xavier in a meadowland daze. We left orbit in the first half and then came crashing back down to earth.

jipops
12-20-2008, 04:09 PM
Preparation and execution, it was a beautiful thing to watch in the 1st half. Scheyer looked like a pro out there. He was easily the best player on the floor, at both ends. Zoubek still showing a lot of improvement and Gerald finally appears to be looking for his shot.

Ben63
12-20-2008, 04:10 PM
We lost the second half by 13 points. I think we were lucky we caught Xavier in a meadowland daze. We left orbit in the first half and then came crashing back down to earth.

But you must say it is tough to maintain that level of play the whole game. The great 1st half is nearly impossible to match in the 2nd half. But that doesn't mean we should lose the 2nd half by that much.

shadowfax336
12-20-2008, 04:12 PM
Great game accros that board, but it only highlights that we had no business losing to Michigan.
Way to focus on the positive!

The first half was probably the best basketball I've seen from a Duke team since the last time we made a preChristmas jaunt to the meadowlands and JJ ripped apart Texas. Scheyer was a star, Henderson was quietly excellent, Singler did everything but score (and 9 points isn't chicken scratch) and Zoubek had his best game at Duke (don't look now but our big man issues appear to be solved). Absolutely no complaints from that first half. The let-up in the second half was probably unavoidable, Xavier is a good and proud team, and it was good to see that we put our foot down every time it got down around the 24 point range. Duke teams the past 2 years might have let this lead drift down to 10 and made things much to interesting (well, 2 years ago we would never have gotten this lead...). A great great game, an example of just what this team can be when we hit shots and play as a team.

Bob Green
12-20-2008, 04:13 PM
While it is disappointing we were outscored by 13 in the second half, after leading by 31 at halftime, it is hard to be upset about an 18 point victory. The first 10 minutes of the game were an awesome display of dominating basketball. We did it all: defense, ball movement, shooting the three, and dumping it inside.

shadowfax336
12-20-2008, 04:13 PM
We lost the second half by 13 points. I think we were lucky we caught Xavier in a meadowland daze. We left orbit in the first half and then came crashing back down to earth.

When you have a 31 point halftime lead against a top 10 team there's nowhere to go but down. Dang people, enjoy a great win.

DoubleDuke Dad
12-20-2008, 04:13 PM
Duke could not have played better in the first half. Their shooting, passing, rebounding and defense was phenomenal. For a minute I thought that Coach K had replaced the Duke team with the “redeem” team.

DukieInBrasil
12-20-2008, 04:14 PM
this Duke hasnīt stepped on the other teamīs jugular from the start of a game until this afternoon, i am still savoring the sweet taste of total annihilation... Jon Scheyer was awesome. In the in-game thread someone lamented that Kyle wasnīt scoring, actually he did, 9 very quiet points, but he grabbed 8 boards and dished out a bunch of assists again. Great game all around. Zoubek deserves some strong condsideration for MOM, the dude had a perfect shoooting night. 11 points on 5 shots is over 100% efficiency, as are the 23 points on 11 shots from Mr. Scheyer, if you please.

roywhite
12-20-2008, 04:15 PM
Thanks to the coaches and team for a very nice Christmas present. Great to see the effectiveness on both ends of the floor. Scheyer and Henderson, in particular, were excellent.

Ben63
12-20-2008, 04:19 PM
The UNC-Ashville game didn't really get the bad taste of Michigan out of my mouth, but this game most certainly did. If we continue to play like this (especially the 1st half) it will be a memorable season for the Blue Devils.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
12-20-2008, 04:20 PM
But you must say it is tough to maintain that level of play the whole game. The great 1st half is nearly impossible to match in the 2nd half. But that doesn't mean we should lose the 2nd half by that much.

It was a good win - its going to be important as far as our ranking in March and that is all that counts... but I think we played a little over our heads in the first half and I think Xavier played as bad as they possibly could. A decent d-3 team might not go down 18-1 to us. I expected we would see a shell shocked Xavier team in the second half - and therefore I was thinking the second half would be a more appropriate measuring stick. Our stall ball may have had something to do with it, but they pretty much doubled their output while we saw ours cut in half. :(

Seeing how good Xavier really could be in the second half makes it almost equally impressive that we were able to jump on them so fast that it took them until half time to figure out what to do. :)

mike88
12-20-2008, 04:21 PM
We lost the second half by 13 points. I think we were lucky we caught Xavier in a meadowland daze. We left orbit in the first half and then came crashing back down to earth.

We thoroughly dismantled the #7 team in the country in all aspects of the game. Several of our players had their best games of the year. We got strong contributions from our bench. I am really struggling to find anything wrong with how we played today.

I don't think we were in any way "lucky" - we came out and knocked them back and never really let up until the last 3-4 minutes when the outcome was far from being in doubt. Letting them score meaningless points against our bench doesn't constitute "crashing back to earth" - at least not in my basketball universe.

mgtr
12-20-2008, 04:23 PM
So used to see Duke starting out slowly, glad to see them rip it up right from the start. Scheyer was great, but Zoubs and Hendo did very well, too. If Zoubek keeps improving, maybe the "no-post-presence" folks will calm down.

Oriole Way
12-20-2008, 04:26 PM
I wouldn't be worried about being outscored by 13 in the second half. The game was already over at halftime, so you can't expect Duke to keep playing the same way.

Xavier went on a run towards the end of the game when we took the foot off the gas. They scored a lot of points in the last couple minutes (pretty sure that one kid kept launching 3's and hit 2 or 3 of them, doing nothing but padding stats and saving face) when Duke wasn't even trying to score.

Diddy
12-20-2008, 04:26 PM
Frankly, I am amazed we only lost the second half by 13 points.

It switched away, so most of you didn't see how it ended, but I did. For the last 3ish minutes we had Greg, Olek, E-Will, Plumlee and McClure in the game. They are great kids, one and all, and they played well, but there is very little offense on the court with that lineup. Greg is a good shooter, but since he was the primary option, they really keyed on stopping him. Also, he wasn't exactly looking for his shot, trying to get everyone else involved. When they switched, we were still up by arround 30, and K pretty much packed it in.

The team couldn't generate any O at the end with that lineup (a group that would only be on the floor together during blowouts or as a result of some sort of Biblical disaster). So what. we had stomped a solid team, and K saw no reason to continue it. I agree.

Best thing about the last few minutes was that we didn't go into the stall.

Worst thing, is that neither Olek nor Plumlee got any real PT until this point. Given the blowout nature of the win, I would've thought they would play more earlier, but whatevs.

Zoubek looked great today. If he can bring that kind of Defensive presence most games, then we are a definite top 4 team, and maybe top 2.

Our guys were hitting today, but they kept attacking the basket. When we play like we did today, inside out, we are hard to stop. We have to attack the basket, with the kickout 3 being the backup option, not the first option.

Great game, on both sides.

wisteria
12-20-2008, 04:28 PM
Guys, we were up 27 with 1:40 something to go. They took 2 long threes to make the final score look much closer.

sagegrouse
12-20-2008, 04:28 PM
We lost the second half by 13 points. I think we were lucky we caught Xavier in a meadowland daze. We left orbit in the first half and then came crashing back down to earth.

Duke was up 80-53 with 2:30 to go and put in the subs (not soon enough according to the thread initiator). Xavier finished the game on an 11-2 run.

Really, what are you talking about? This was an awesome Duke performance!

Reminds me of when Larry Shyatt made a point of saying, "we won the second half," when Clemson trailed Duke 55-17 at the half (thanks to a halfcourt bankshot by freshman Dunleavy).

sagegrouse
'In this post, the accent in my name is definitely on the second syl-LAB-le'

devildeac
12-20-2008, 04:29 PM
For those who got to listen to the radio (watch it on TV and be in snrub, too), we did learn that K and the coaches were livid during the 1st two TO about the lack of intensity in about the first 8 minutes of the 2nd half. I think we have reason to express a bit of concern but also greatly appreciate the dismantling of the X-men in the 1st half-from the tip-off to the final fabulous pass by JS to Dave for the dunk to finish the 1st 20 minutes. That was awesome execution.

Saratoga2
12-20-2008, 04:30 PM
Wish CBS hadn't cut out of the game. I would have liked to see the subs go at it.

In my view we weren't getting calls when we went in on the drive and were bumped hard. Good thing it wasn't a close game.

I was really surprised that we could do no wrong against Xavier in the first half. Scheyer was excellent shooting, defensively, passing and even went in for rebounding. I agree that he looked like a pro loose in a college game.

Zoubek had his best game. Xavier's plan was to drive the ball inside and it played into Zoubek. With both Singler and Brian inside, almost every shot was erblocked.

We were heads up on defense, getting quite a few steals and converting them to points off turnovers.

Henderson also had a very good game doing all things well.

I liked Nolan's game over Greg's, since the ball gets advanced more quickly and Nolan can penetrate better. It is still a luxury to have a competent point guard to come in and spell Nolan.

We didn't go deep with the substitutions in the first half with McClure and Williams getting some time as well. Anyone who watched the entire game should fill the rest of us in on the last period where we got blacked out.

Xavier is not as bad as they looked in the first half. I think our pressure got to them and they didn't have the right strategy in the first half. They will win a lot of games this year and it will help Duke in the ranking area to have beaten them.

DukieInBrasil
12-20-2008, 04:31 PM
for what itīs worth, #5 Texas lost at home, so up we go, not that it matters much right now.
Unfortunately, the Holes went out and pretty well demolished Valpo on the road.
also, interestingly, Belmont is giving #19 UTennessee a great game, actually up 3 with 11+ left in the game.
will Gonzaga be able to tame the #2 Huskies? And, is Gonz. the co-#7? Would they jump over Duke if they beat UCONNvicts?

Bob Green
12-20-2008, 04:33 PM
for what itīs worth, #5 Texas lost at home...

Just nitpicking here but, Texas lost on a neutral court. The game was played in Houston not Austin.

natedog4ever
12-20-2008, 04:35 PM
Never seen a team, Duke or otherwise, replicate a can of woopass like that for two halves. It just doesn't happen in college basketball. I too would like to see Duke beat a top 10 team by 70 or 80 points, but if you have any problems with what happened today, you just have problems.

bradjenk
12-20-2008, 04:41 PM
Did anybody else notice the difference in our offense? I had heard that we have been implementing more of a motion offense in practice and I think it looked great today. Alot more movement of the ball and less dribbling. I think that plays to our strength as a passing team and seems to energize the players with quick cuts and some post up while still keeping driving lanes open and the floor spaced. G in particular seemed to find more openings in the flow of the offense.

jpfrizzle
12-20-2008, 04:41 PM
I loved todays game! I believe we will see more games like this in the coming weeks on the road to March!


Go DUKE ! ! ! !

DukieInBrasil
12-20-2008, 04:47 PM
Just nitpicking here but, Texas lost on a neutral court. The game was played in Houston not Austin.
ok good to know. My info was coming off the espn web-site, they just showed TX as the home team. As the previously #5 team, it gives us a chance to move up.

basketballfan22
12-20-2008, 04:51 PM
Zoubeck best game this year. Offensively he had some nice assists and buckets. He really showed up on the defensive end though. Made a lot of guys change their shots. general stayed out of foul trouble.

I'm beginning to have some hope for Zoubeck. He continues to play this way... he will be a someone teams will have to scheme for.

1) Lance Thomas seems to be more offensive minded. Liked seeing him taking it to the basket.

2) Henderson needs to post up more. There is no one in the college that can defend his fade away.

arnie
12-20-2008, 04:57 PM
Yea, the final score is meaningless - I thought the best halftime performance by Duke's team in years (not counting the Texas game since it was all Redick). Nolan Smith may become our best point guard since Williams/Duhon combo.


I enjoyed the Xavier boards during halftime. Many on the board blamed the officials while they were losing by 30. Is this a great country or whaat!

sandinmyshoes
12-20-2008, 04:58 PM
While I'm not sure Xavier is really a top ten worthy team, the spurtability of the Devils reminds me of what many of us of what we term as classic coach K teams. First half, second half, sooner or later there is a spurt that ends the game. Today that spurt was in the first ten minutes.

I expected Xavier to make a run. They may not be top ten worthy (imo) but they are top 25 worthy. They made a few stabs at it, but that intitial explosion by our guys was just too much.

As for UNC, they didn't exactly destroy Valpo. And it wasn't exactly a road game, with probably more UNC fans than Valpo fans in the arena. I saw some of that game since my wife is a UNC fan. UNC was up only ten at the half, and just kept pulling away in the second half. My main concern is that the teams like ORU and Valpo are using all sorts of gimmicky game plans to control UNC, and I'm afraid UNC is learning from them. Learning how to win when their transition game is somewhat stunted.

Our future foe, Georgetown, had a kind of lackluster win today.

Past foe, Purdue is roughing up future foe Davidson at the half.

jpfrizzle
12-20-2008, 05:06 PM
Zoubeck best game this year. Offensively he had some nice assists and buckets. He really showed up on the defensive end though. Made a lot of guys change their shots. general stayed out of foul trouble.

I'm beginning to have some hope for Zoubeck. He continues to play this way... he will be a someone teams will have to scheme for.

1) Lance Thomas seems to be more offensive minded. Liked seeing him taking it to the basket.

2) Henderson needs to post up more. There is no one in the college that can defend his fade away.

I agree. I am very pleased with Zoobs this season coming off his injury. Todays game Zoobs really showed his potential of improvement. I hope he becomes a powerful force as the months progress.

I am pleased with Thomas ball handling this season. He shows a great deal of energy on the court.

Henderson. I'm thinking he's gonna explode later in the season. Right now is not the time. but I could be wrong.

OZZIE4DUKE
12-20-2008, 05:08 PM
A very fun game to be at! The first half was fabulous. Scheyer and Zoubek (note correct spelling, please!) were superb.

Someone above commented on the refs. The calls were, shall I say, very uneven and inconsistent, not in our favor. We got called for several ticky-tac touch fouls, and our guys got mauled a couple of times and there was no call. But when you are up 30 when it happens, you can't complain (although you can yell at the refs!).

Great annual pre-Christmas jaunt to the NY area. Wish more of you could have been here - there were plenty of empty seats, although the crowd was 90% for Duke as you would expect. Great job by the alumni band, and the cheerleaders who were there (no, they weren't alumni cheerleaders). Where was the Blue Devil today???

elvis14
12-20-2008, 05:08 PM
We lost the second half by 13 points. I think we were lucky we caught Xavier in a meadowland daze. We left orbit in the first half and then came crashing back down to earth.

Holy out of left field, Batman. Did you watch the game or just look at stats? Between playing stall ball (which will kill clock and lose points) and playing DEEP into our bench we did just fine. Plus, as others have pointed out, they hit a couple of late 3's to make the score look closer than it really was.


So used to see Duke starting out slowly, glad to see them rip it up right from the start. Scheyer was great, but Zoubs and Hendo did very well, too. If Zoubek keeps improving, maybe the "no-post-presence" folks will calm down.

Great points mgtr. I was also thrilled to see Duke start fast. At one time I was thinking that people might owe BZ apologies by the end of the year. No need to wait folks, you can start now!


Did anybody else notice the difference in our offense? I had heard that we have been implementing more of a motion offense in practice and I think it looked great today. Alot more movement of the ball and less dribbling. I think that plays to our strength as a passing team and seems to energize the players with quick cuts and some post up while still keeping driving lanes open and the floor spaced. G in particular seemed to find more openings in the flow of the offense.

Yes it did seem to me that we were using less of the spread and more ball movement. Of course, after a game like today's, it's hard not to like what I see.


Henderson needs to post up more. There is no one in the college that can defend his fade away.

I liked Henderson's game today. He took more mid-range shots and even made a nice jump hook. I don't know if he blocked any shots but he got way up an altered quite a few.

That was really fun to watch. I really like this team. I made the mistake of reading X's message board before the game. I should really know better by now. After reading all that Duke hate I really wanted our boys to put it on X. They did, how sweet it is.

DBFAN
12-20-2008, 05:12 PM
for what itīs worth, #5 Texas lost at home, so up we go, not that it matters much right now.
Unfortunately, the Holes went out and pretty well demolished Valpo on the road.
also, interestingly, Belmont is giving #19 UTennessee a great game, actually up 3 with 11+ left in the game.
will Gonzaga be able to tame the #2 Huskies? And, is Gonz. the co-#7? Would they jump over Duke if they beat UCONNvicts?

There is no way that we get jumped by Gonzaga if they beat UCONN, we just beat the number 7 team (or 8 depending on which poll you use) By 18 (and it wasn't even that close). Duke showed today that they are indeed a top 5 team. We have dimantled Purdue which the number three team Oklahoma had to go into overtime to beat them and we just put a beat down on Xavier, this team could be special.

Mcluhan
12-20-2008, 05:18 PM
I still contend that Singler, even on an off day, looks like the savviest player on the court. The guy has uncanny hands, timing, and body control. That coast to coast drive where he spun on a dime and ended up getting blocked was a thing of beauty. 9, 8, 4, 3, and 3 is the stat line of a guy who loves to be in the mix on every play.

Henderson: love that fadeaway! Love the assertiveness. He took charge in some of the huddles early in the second half.

The two biggest differences between this team and the teams of the last four or so years are:

1) We're rebounding consistently. We're fighting for rebounds.

2) Speaking of savvy, we've got to have the savviest bench in the nation. The top coaching decision of the year is K inserting Smith into the starting lineup, knowing that Nolan could earn the job and that in doing so, we would essentially have a starting point guard coming off the bench in Paulus. With McClure always playing intelligently and within his abilities, and Lance having matured into manhood with a serious sense of responsibility when he's on the floor, there's little drop off when we rest our starters.


This team, more than anything else, is savvy and resourceful.

should_be_working
12-20-2008, 05:27 PM
I think Xavier played as bad as they possibly could. A decent d-3 team might not go down 18-1 to us. I expected we would see a shell shocked Xavier team in the second half - and therefore I was thinking the second half would be a more appropriate measuring stick. Our stall ball may have had something to do with it, but they pretty much doubled their output while we saw ours cut in half. :(

Seeing how good Xavier really could be in the second half makes it almost equally impressive that we were able to jump on them so fast that it took them until half time to figure out what to do. :)

Really? While Xavier didn't play that well at all in the first half, I think most of that was due to our defense. We played a tremendous first half - best i've seen in a long time. They kept trying to get the ball inside and our defense wouldn't allow it. It also helped that the refs weren't calling fouls on Z before the ball was even thrown into the paint. They were "shell shocked" because we were so good. I don't care who we would have played today, we have a first half like that with that kind of execution we beat whoever we play. This was a great game and tells me when we focus and execute we can make an impressive run in march. Nothing to be negative about today. Enjoy this! stop trying to over think it. :)

DukeUsul
12-20-2008, 05:34 PM
When you have a 31 point halftime lead against a top 10 team there's nowhere to go but down. Dang people, enjoy a great win.

Agreed. Xavier is good and good teams make adjustments. And the good thing is we handled them well in the second half.

delfrio
12-20-2008, 05:57 PM
As everyone has said, great game. We didn't try to force anything, except for the very beginning of the second half. Love to see the passing. About the only downside I can pick out (and this is really a more general feature) is that I wish Paulus would step into his threes more. He keeps shooting from beyond NBA and hitting the front of the rim. He's usually open enough for a step forward, and it would probably help a lot.

Great game to take into the break. Hope the team keeps this enthusiasm when they get back.

jv001
12-20-2008, 06:38 PM
We lost the second half by 13 points. I think we were lucky we caught Xavier in a meadowland daze. We left orbit in the first half and then came crashing back down to earth.

Yeh and Hall better hope he's right and The Bible is wrong.

duke74
12-20-2008, 06:43 PM
Great annual pre-Christmas jaunt to the NY area. Wish more of you could have been here - there were plenty of empty seats, although the crowd was 90% for Duke as you would expect.

New Jersey, icy roads...yuck. Better in the Garden (Michigan..soon St. Johns!)

Native
12-20-2008, 06:45 PM
Solid win. After the Michigan game, I was worried that this Duke team would not meet expectations, but I was wrong. 20+ point victory over a top ten team - phenomenal! I am especially thrilled over Zoubek's play; it is clear he has really stepped it up and is striving to get better.

shadowfax336
12-20-2008, 06:50 PM
Yeh and Hall better hope he's right and The Bible is wrong.
??
I don't understand...

jv001
12-20-2008, 06:51 PM
No Complaints from me. I really enjoyed this game, especially the first half. I know we let some of the 30 point lead slip away at the beginning of the 2nd half but Coach K lit in to the starters during the timeout and after that the lead got close to 30 pts again. The lead really slip away when coach put in the reserves. Jon had an excellent game and he seemed to be everywhere. Zoubs really played well and Thomas came off the bench and we did not lose anything. I like the way this team is improving. Go Duke!

Deslok
12-20-2008, 07:05 PM
Wow. What a fun game to be at. As has been noted, the first half was just flawless. If you want to make a tape of how to help as an interior defender, watch the first 20 minutes of Zoubek and Thomas in the lane. The guards, Henderson, and Singler were doing well in switching and containing their men on the perimeter, but when one would slide in, every time they ran into Thomas or Zoubek who cut them off completely and at best they managed a pass back out to the perimeter. There was only one time that didn't happen, and I can recall being totally surprised by it when someone beat Paulus off the dribble and he tried to slide them along to some help... just as the Red Sea parted and the lane was wide open so Xavier got a layup. Every other time the dribble drive was shut down. Also to be noted is that while we did shoot a fair number of 3s, almost all of them were kickouts, it wasn't a case of swing the ball around the perimeter for 20 seconds and hoist a 3.

And a final note. There were some very loud Xavier fans moaning and groaning about every call(they wanted every Duke player to be called for travelling every single play), but there were also a large group of pretty amiable fans, especially given the way their team got taken apart. My personal favorite was the guy in the pope outfit, who at the end held up a sign saying something like "The pope is distressed"

Philadukie
12-20-2008, 07:12 PM
Great game. I think it affirmed that the Michigan loss did not expose any fundamental flaws with the team. They lost that game because of a lack of aggression and poor shooting (with the former probably causing the latter); but those things were clearly not issues today. Zoubek and Thomas have been more than serviceable on the blocks, and our guard play is obviously as good as any team.

Speaking about the season in general, I've watched a lot of basketball this fall, and, other than Carolina, I haven't seen any teams in the Top 15 or so that look really dominant. Duke can beat any of them and certainly has a chance of going to the FF, which I wouldn't have said the last couple of years. The parity this year - a tired phrase, I know - is unlike any I think I've ever seen. That's the upshot for Duke. The flip side, of course, is that, like those other teams, Duke isn't really dominant either and can also be beaten by anyone (as Michigan showed). Maybe some separation will occur throughout the heart of the season among teams, but right now I don't see it.

Anyway, the point being: great game by a good team that can do great things in a landscape of commensurably good teams.

SMO
12-20-2008, 07:29 PM
We lost the second half by 13 points. I think we were lucky we caught Xavier in a meadowland daze. We left orbit in the first half and then came crashing back down to earth.

I knew it wouldn't take long to find a post that claimed luck and was relatively critical given an absolute blowout of a top 10 team at a neutral site. Gotta love the DBR boards!

SMO
12-20-2008, 07:33 PM
Did anybody else notice the difference in our offense? I had heard that we have been implementing more of a motion offense in practice and I think it looked great today. Alot more movement of the ball and less dribbling. I think that plays to our strength as a passing team and seems to energize the players with quick cuts and some post up while still keeping driving lanes open and the floor spaced. G in particular seemed to find more openings in the flow of the offense.

Good observation. I also noticed that the worst they looked was the first 3 min of the 2nd half, when no one was moving.

dukelifer
12-20-2008, 07:40 PM
Excellent game by Duke. Nice balance on O - good disruptive D that led to fast break points and very good rebounding in traffic. Zoubek played a solid, solid game. He is really playing within himself of late. The announcers noted that he is becoming more aware on the floor. He was blocking shots, making relocation passes and had a beautiful assist to McClure. It seems as there are now a few plays designed just for him. There was a nice play by Singler where he drove and dished to a wide open Zoubek. With great drivers, Zoubek is going to be in a position to get a lot of possible putbacks if he is ready. And he is hitting his throws. Zoubek is officially a "weapon". He will still struggle a bit against elite big men- but there are not that many of those out there.

Henderson had a nice game as well. When he hits his jumper, it gives him a lot of confidence to be aggressive. Of course, Scheyer was the star of the first half. When he gets it going, it is hard to stop him. Good to see him do this against some long athletic defenders.

All in all, Duke showed how well it can play today in the first half when all is clicking. Duke does have an inside presence now and more importantly are figuring out how to use Zoubek and Thomas. 16 points out of that "position" and few mistakes. Duke looks ready for the ACC wars.

ncexnyc
12-20-2008, 07:56 PM
A simply awesome game!

Jon was fantastic and his scoring outburst helped bury Xavier early on.

Brian was a beast under the basket. He seemed to have a hand or arm on every Xavier shot.

Nolan had several nice drives to the hoop, which clearly illustrates why he is our starting PG.

G suddenly found his midrange game.

Kyle did a little of everything.

Lance had some niffty offensive moves to the hoop.

Elliot continues to get some nice playing time.

Not much from Greg and David today and I was pretty surprised with the lack of PT that Miles and Marty got today, especially considering we led by close to 30 for much of the game.

A very nice Christmas gift from the team to their fans. Best wishes to everyone and a Merry Christmas to all.

ArnieMc
12-20-2008, 07:57 PM
Wow. What a fun game to be at. As has been noted, the first half was just flawless. If you want to make a tape of how to help as an interior defender, watch the first 20 minutes of Zoubek and Thomas in the lane. The guards, Henderson, and Singler were doing well in switching and containing their men on the perimeter, but when one would slide in, every time they ran into Thomas or Zoubek who cut them off completely and at best they managed a pass back out to the perimeter.


My personal favorite was the guy in the pope outfit, who at the end held up a sign saying something like "The pope is distressed"
It looked like they were running a new wrinkle on defense. Zoubek didn't go out with his man. There was an autoswitch and Zoubs would drift back into the lane. It was almost a match-up zone. It was really effective.

The sign they showed on TV was "The Pope is Bummed."

dukelifer
12-20-2008, 08:00 PM
I knew it wouldn't take long to find a post that claimed luck and was relatively critical given an absolute blowout of a top 10 team at a neutral site. Gotta love the DBR boards!
And don't forget that K did not play his bench enough in the blowout- what better way to get them experience :D

Speaking of the bench, in the last two games the bench has officially averaged 45 points. Now that is productivity!

DukieInBrasil
12-20-2008, 08:03 PM
I can find nothing to complain about in the win over Xavier, and there are lots of things to get happy about.
Jon Scheyer and Z helped set the tone early by knocking the Xmen back and then everybody chipped in to make sure they didn't really get back up. In fact, Xavier showed next to no life until the kid off the bench nailed consecutive 3s late in the game. I'm not sure if this was Jon's career game, tho' it certainly has to be up there, but this was mos def Z's best game to date. He has scored more and also gotten more boards in other games but Z has never looked more like a basketball player than he did today. Not only was he perfect shooting but he grabbed boards as well as grabbing O-boards for put-back points/dunks!!! He also started the game with a block and finished with 4!!! Add to that an assist and Z showed that he can be a force against a very good opponent, not just against directional schools.
Tho' he followed Jon's lead, Gerald also had an excellent game, something that has been in short supply for him so far (he has had several very good and/or quality games IMHO). If he can start utilizing that fall-away jumper out of the post more often he will be next to impossible to defend.
Kyle's game was very solid, not sensational, but if you focus only on the 9 pts (which ain't chicken scratch) you might think he had a blah game. He rebounded well and led the team in rebs and assists again. Before this season I didn't think Kyle was much of a passing threat but he has shown an extremely deft touch withe rock this year.
I have absolutely no problem with Duke not playing even (actually -13) in the 2nd half because K made a commitment to getting minutes to the bench. It didn't play well enough to get much praise, tho' LT and Dave played pretty good games.
The only non-pluses were the play of Nolan and Greg at the PG position, mediocre at best (2-11 FGs, 9pts), and the rest of the bench, which really didn't really do anything. EWill, Pocius, Plumlee and Czyz registered 2 points and 2 rebs, which isn't too much of a surprise considering Xavier is a top-10 caliber team.
Our boys showed tonight the kind of verve that they really hadn't shown all season, despite winning some pretty good games like Mich I and Purdue. They came out swinging and had a successful game plan with great execution.

Classof06
12-20-2008, 08:06 PM
Yes.

Bob Green
12-20-2008, 08:10 PM
The only non-pluses were the play of Nolan and Greg at the PG position, mediocre at best (2-10 FGs, 9pts)...

I'm going to have to disagree. Nolan Smith had three assists and three steals against two turnovers in 16 minutes:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=3636172

SMO
12-20-2008, 08:16 PM
And don't forget that K did not play his bench enough in the blowout- what better way to get them experience :D

And we still don't have an Elton Brand or Carlos Boozer! You'd think K would have fixed that by now, doggone it!

fogey
12-20-2008, 10:08 PM
magnificent game by our devils, they absolutely dominated Xavier. Bemoaning the second half score makes no sense. I was there and it is clear that we let up in the last 5 minutes as the second team came in, Elliot and Miles missed a few bunnies, we didn't challenge their 3 chucks. So the final score got to an 18 point margin truly during garbage time.
First half best by a Duke team in a long time, and we should just enjoy it. Crazy Xavier section in front of me, all standing at the start of the game. I felt like we were going to have to stand up also just to see, but the Duke kids solved that little problem by squashing that team with a real (and welcome) killer instinct. They all sat down in unison one minute in.
Well done, Devils. Thanks.

jv001
12-20-2008, 10:12 PM
And we still don't have an Elton Brand or Carlos Boozer! You'd think K would have fixed that by now, doggone it!

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

Diddy
12-20-2008, 10:25 PM
First, Nolan played an excellant game today. Some people foolishly compare him to J-Will or Duhon. J-Will was not a PG. He was a lead guard. He dominated by dominating the ball. He could drive, dish and shoot, but he never ran an offense per se. CDu was more of a pure PG, but by the time he really and truly took over the reigns he was a Jr. That year, there was a scarcity of scoring options. JJ was a Frosh whose only skill was long range shooting, Ewing was a sophmore Combo guard whose perimeter J was dicey, Sheldon was a defensive and rebounding dynamo who gave little help on the O end, and Shavlik was enduring a career tragically decimated by injuries. Dahntay was an option, and really the only quasi reliable scorer beyond CDu.

CDu pushed too hard, and his shot abandoned him. He tried valiently, but in vain, to be a lead guard. That is not his thing. He is a distributor. His Sr year he capped a great career as he was surrounded by a variety of capable and reliable scoring options.

That 04 sguad did not have as many scoring options as this team does. Nolan doesn't have to be either J-Will nor CDu. Beyond Nolan, there are 3 other guys on the team (KS, JS, and GP) who are all capable of directing the flow of the offense. Like 2001 (SB, MD, Cdu, and J-Will). Given the scoring options on this team, we only need a few things out of our PG. Good D, timely shooting, capable driving, Good D, solid passing, Good D, and Good D.

Nolan is the tip of the spear on D. He is not necessarily our best Defender. But he is up there. Most importantly, he is a good to great defender at the most necessary position on the floor, the PG position. All he has to do is not kill the team. He can't have a 3-15 night, or a night with 8+ turnovers. If he takes care of the ball and plays good D, and scores a few times, it is gravy. All the top ACC teams, and national powers, have good to great PGs from an athletic standpoint. Nolan is a guy who can stay in front of those guys.

Specifically, UNC and Ty Lawson. That is the team we have to gear up to beat in March Madness. People on this board can hem and haw all they want about having to win 6 games in a row, and how luck plays a part, and any given team on any given night. Bull Plonky. If somebody put a gun to your families' heads, and told you your family would die unless you could name 1 and only 1 team that would be in the FF, you would pick UNC. Anyone that doesn't pick UNC doesn't really love their family. As another poster earlier mentioned, outside of UNC, any team CAN beat any other team. I like our chances for the FF, but I would not be shocked if we bowed out in the sweet 16. After UNC there are no dominant teams.

UNC is the squad we have to worry about. If someone else beats them prior to the FF or NC title game, score. We can beat anybody else, right now. I don't know if that is true for UNC. If we shoot like we did vs Xavier today, we have a great chance to beat UNC. That type of shooting darn sure isn't guaranteed. And anyway, I am not worried about scoring a lot of points against UNC, or any Roy Williams coached squad. With regards to this UNC team, I worry that we can score ENOUGH to beat them. Because UNC will score points. Even if Duke plays great D, UNC will score a lot of points. They are as good a team on O as the nation has seen in many years. They can turn it down to slow down a rout, but turn it right back up if it gets a little close. The real keyto beating UNC is not scoring or assists by our PG. The key to beating UNC is slowing down their O.

God Love Paulus, but he simply is not up to the task of guarding Lawson. Virtually no one in college is. We can sic Greg on Frasor or Drew and watch the fur fly. I like those matchups. We will win those matchups. I hate watching Greg try to stay in front of Lawson. Nolan CAN do that. All the MPG he gets now will better prepare him for a tough task against UNC, who we might have to beat in March (probably the FF, no way would the NCAA want a Duke-UNC title game)

We may not like it. It rankles, UNC being so good. But every game, and every practice, must be conducted with one thought foremost. We must prepare for UNC. In 1999, that is how every team thought of Duke and UConn. This year only UNC is at the top. We must prepare for the each team as they come, but a little bit of each game and each practice must be devoted to preparing to battle UNC.

Which leads to the Bench. I loved the beat down we delivered today. It probably sent a message to the rest of the ACC that Duke is a serious player on the national scene. Psycological Warfare and whatnot. I would still have traded eight more points off our margin for Plumlee, MP, and E-Will (to a lesser extent) to have garnered a few more minutes. Look, I love what Zoubs and Lance are doing down Low. Combined with Kyle, we are dangerous down low. But against UNC, we WILL need important minutes from E-Will and Plumlee, and possibly Marty as well.

We all bemoan how Hanstravel gets all the calls, and how the refs call a foul if you blow on him. Well, that won't change. You can further bet that K won't put Kyle on Tyler for any significant stretch, to keep Kyle out of foul trouble (cause guarding Stephenson is no walk in the park for Kyle). That leaves Lance and Brian to guard Hans, or either Davis or Stephenson, depending on the lineup. That is 10 fouls. Between guarding Hans and the other fouls that always accumulate on a big, it is a dicey situation. Plum has to be ready to do more than flail hopelessly at Hans. I know he gets burn in practice, but by now he probably knows the moves of all the bigs on the team. And going against BZ and Lance is not going to get him ready for Hans. Practice time isn't game time, and he needs game time. Same for E-will and MP. UNC has waves of guards and perimeter players, and we will need to steal minutes of rest for the main rotation, who will have to go balls to the wall every minute they are in the game.

The bench has to get ready, and today was a wasted opportunity to do that on a big stage. Great Win, top to bottom. Everybody played well, and the coaches did a solid job. IMO another 3-4 mins in actual game situation would have been far more valuable than preserving the near 30 pt lead we enjoyed for the vast marjoity of the second half.

taiw93
12-20-2008, 10:30 PM
I'm really glad I was able to attend this game! This was probably the best I've seen Duke play in years, with the exeption of the game @ UNC last year. Although the second half score looks disappointing, for those that were able to see the whole game it was quite clear that this was more a result of our bench going in and Xavier hitting late-game 3's - we were really up by ~25 the whole second half. The major positives for me were:
1) Scheyer's Shooting- he was 5-7 from 3 including one really deep one. He was dominant today.
2) Zoubek- Despite the four fouls and one series of events where he fumbled the ball around and eventually had it stripped, he was excellent. He moved well (did not look as oaf-like as he has in the past), had 4 blocks, and was very effective on the offensive end - did anyone else see that put-back dunk! Since when can Zoubs dunk?!?!?
3) G- He shot well from 3, drove well, and had a few nasty pull-up j's- a move which he has really not showed off enough this year. He looks about ready to turn into the star we've been expecting him to be.
Kyle played well as always, LT was solid, and Nolan seems to be improving quickly. Wish E-Will had been a little less erratic though.

jv001
12-20-2008, 10:41 PM
Diddy I agree with most of your post. However E-Will needs to develop better offensive skills. He is a good defender, rebounder and can drive to the basket. But it looks like the other team is giving him the outside shot and not allowing him to drive to the basket. He has not shown that he can make the outside shot and some of his misses are not even close. His improvement will have to come in practice to get more mins. I would like to see Miles get some mins, but not at the expense of Zoubs and Thomas. They also need the mins for their development. Maybe Kyle could be given more rest and Miles get mins that way. I don't know. However I love the way this team is going after really stinking it up against Michigan. Go Duke!

Kedsy
12-20-2008, 10:45 PM
All the MPG he gets now will better prepare him for a tough task against UNC, who we might have to beat in March (probably the FF, no way would the NCAA want a Duke-UNC title game)

* * *

We all bemoan how Hanstravel gets all the calls, and how the refs call a foul if you blow on him. Well, that won't change. You can further bet that K won't put Kyle on Tyler for any significant stretch, to keep Kyle out of foul trouble (cause guarding Stephenson is no walk in the park for Kyle). That leaves Lance and Brian to guard Hans, or either Davis or Stephenson, depending on the lineup.

Well, I don't agree that we have to be thinking about UNC now or anytime soon, but I don't want to go back and forth about that.

Why don't you think the NCAA would want a Duke/UNC title game? I think they (whoever "they" are) would collectively wet their pants they'd be so happy if that game came to be.

And I'm pretty sure Alex Stephenson transferred out of UNC some time ago. Perhaps you mean Thompson?

moonpie23
12-20-2008, 10:51 PM
this was a great game...i would love to see zouebs continue to be agressive...i feel like duke played at a high level of intensity and focus today.. prolly at a 90%......


we will need a 100% against unc...

gep
12-20-2008, 10:54 PM
Why don't you think the NCAA would want a Duke/UNC title game? I think they (whoever "they" are) would collectively wet their pants they'd be so happy if that game came to be.

I thought I heard in the past the the NCAA didn't want *any* 2 teams in the championship game from the same conference. I certainly don't remember the details, but I thought that was why Duke played Maryland in the semis in 2001, with no possibility for that matchup in the final. Of course, I also don't remember details of any other years too...

dukelifer
12-20-2008, 11:27 PM
We may not like it. It rankles, UNC being so good. But every game, and every practice, must be conducted with one thought foremost. We must prepare for UNC. In 1999, that is how every team thought of Duke and UConn. This year only UNC is at the top. We must prepare for the each team as they come, but a little bit of each game and each practice must be devoted to preparing to battle UNC.

Which leads to the Bench. I loved the beat down we delivered today. It probably sent a message to the rest of the ACC that Duke is a serious player on the national scene. Psycological Warfare and whatnot. I would still have traded eight more points off our margin for Plumlee, MP, and E-Will (to a lesser extent) to have garnered a few more minutes. Look, I love what Zoubs and Lance are doing down Low. Combined with Kyle, we are dangerous down low. But against UNC, we WILL need important minutes from E-Will and Plumlee, and possibly Marty as well.



Having watched Duke UNC games since the late 70's- most everything seems to go out the window when the two teams play. Duke could get blown out three times in a row against UNC and still have a chance to beat them in the National Championship game if it came to that. Even if Duke beat UNC three times in a row- they could still lose the most important one. Duke needs to play this season so they are playing their best come March. In that sense they need their bench so the main guys stay as fresh as possible. But playing their best come March will involve possibly playing UNC twice in a couple of weeks- once against UNC in Hansbrough's last game at Chapel Hill and the next game likely in the ACC tourney. That first game will be highly emotional for UNC- they could even be undefeated at that point. You just never know how that will affect a team. UNC played very tight a few days ago when Hansbrough went for the UNC scoring record. They could tighten up again or they could win by 20. The ACC tourney could be for a number 1 seed. The point is that you cannot play a season preparing for the UNC games. Ultimately, it will come down to who can handle the emotion surrounding the game and that happens on game night.

As for needing Plumlee and Williams against UNC- I fail to see how getting a couple more minutes against Xavier would change much of anything. Do you really think that would prepare him to go chest to chest against Hansbrough? It would seem that getting more out of Zoubek and building his growing confidence is much more important right now. He needs to learn to play without fouling and that comes with playing. Zoubek is turning a corner as a player. Plumlee will have his time- right now Zoubek and Thomas need to keep improving and developing. Zoubek and Thomas were having great games. Sitting them on the bench to get Plumlee a couple more minutes would seem to be counter productive. Williams got some minutes in crunch time and struggled- but got minutes. K is playing a lot of players and is getting a lot out of Zoubek and Thomas and McClure. That is where his focus needs to be. Plumlee will have his time down the road and his presence and play in practice may be helping Zoubek and Thomas more than we know.

sagegrouse
12-20-2008, 11:37 PM
I thought I heard in the past the the NCAA didn't want *any* 2 teams in the championship game from the same conference. I certainly don't remember the details, but I thought that was why Duke played Maryland in the semis in 2001, with no possibility for that matchup in the final. Of course, I also don't remember details of any other years too...

FWIW, I believe the NCAA has two rules that are imposed on top of any "natural seeding."

First, conference teams are spread out in the seedings so that two teams from the same conference can't play until the regional finals (round of eight). Sure, if somebody gets eight, then there will be adjustments that preserve the principle. I can't remember if this was a consequence of the Duke-UConn semis match-up in 2004 or was independent of it.

Second, effective a few years ago, the FF matchups are arranged so that #1 and #2 at the beginning of the tournament are not in the same half of the draw -- i.e., #1 and #2, if they survive, will play in the finals not the semis.

I believe the NCAA would be thrilled to have a UNC-Duke final, and so would I.

sagegrouse

Kedsy
12-21-2008, 12:31 AM
I thought I heard in the past the the NCAA didn't want *any* 2 teams in the championship game from the same conference. I certainly don't remember the details, but I thought that was why Duke played Maryland in the semis in 2001, with no possibility for that matchup in the final. Of course, I also don't remember details of any other years too...

Well, someone must have missed the memo in 1988, 1985, and 1976, as well as 1991 where Duke would have played UNC in the final if the Heels hadn't choked it away against Kansas in the semifinal. Or 2002, when Maryland would have played Duke for all the marbles if we'd have managed to, well, you know, get there. Or 2004 where it could have been Duke vs. Ga Tech if we hadn't fouled out all our big men.

When you let so many teams in from every conference, there's no way to keep two teams from playing each other in the finals if they both win out. What I've heard is they don't want the top two teams from any one conference to play before the final, although obviously 2001 is an example to the contrary.

CleXU
12-21-2008, 02:15 AM
Congrats on shooting the lights out Dukies. It was nuts how you went off in the first half and I think it made me squirt a tear more than once...haha... The Xavier team I saw tonight was the team I thought we would have seen this season (aka inexperienced and offensively inept). I just wish my hopes wouldn't have been built up so high by the way they started the season only to be smacked down so hard by Duke. I only wish it could have been a close game and not an even worse repeat of last year's game against UCLA.

Well thanks for the great convo through the week and I can only wish you the best through the rest of the year (especially so the rankings won't completely poop on us).

And the ACC should beware of DUKE when their shooting stroke is on because it is redonkulous!!!!!!!!!

Bob Green
12-21-2008, 02:27 AM
Well thanks for the great convo through the week and I can only wish you the best through the rest of the year (especially so the rankings won't completely poop on us).

Thanks for coming around. The regulars at DBR love fans from opposing teams dropping in and adding to the discussion. Xavier fans were a welcome addition the past week. Thanks with a capital "T."

NYC Duke Fan
12-21-2008, 04:04 AM
Anyone know why he only played 2 minutes in a blowout game? I thought that this was his year to significantly contribute.

heyman25
12-21-2008, 06:36 AM
Earlier I stated Duke had its best half,but was outscored in the 2nd half 40=27. Jon Scheyer agrees its something they need to work on

The only downside was that Duke was outscored 40-27 in the second half.
"We let them off the hook a little in the second half," Scheyer said. "That's something for us to work on, but overall it was a great game for us."

That was all I was saying as well.

heyman25
12-21-2008, 06:52 AM
Last game Martynas was solid on defense,but missed 4 wide open looks against UNC Asheville. He even got praise from K in that game. If Pocius can't score, Williams is the better option off the bench. Elliot is a better rebounder and defender.

Duvall
12-21-2008, 08:55 AM
We may not like it. It rankles, UNC being so good. But every game, and every practice, must be conducted with one thought foremost. We must prepare for UNC.

That sounds like a great plan for losing several of the 20+ games Duke will be playing against teams that aren't UNC.

devildeac
12-21-2008, 09:14 AM
Even though the home page article found fault with our point guards, and rightly so to some degree, their combined game/s were not that bad except for their shooting. Nolan and Greg had 9 points, 8 boards (Markie taught them well:D), 4/4 FT, 4 assists, 4 PF, 3 steals and 2 TO in their 40 minutes combined. Yea, they've had better games combined but this wasn't too shabby, considering all the great games some of the other guys had.

DukeUsul
12-21-2008, 09:15 AM
Earlier I stated Duke had its best half,but was outscored in the 2nd half 40=27. Jon Scheyer agrees its something they need to work on


That was all I was saying as well.

I would look forward to working on maintaining 20+ point leads in the remainder of our games. :D

sagegrouse
12-21-2008, 09:17 AM
FWIW, I believe the NCAA has two rules that are imposed on top of any "natural seeding."

First, conference teams are spread out in the seedings so that two teams from the same conference can't play until the regional finals (round of eight). Sure, if somebody gets eight, then there will be adjustments that preserve the principle. I can't remember if this was a consequence of the Duke-UConn semis match-up in 2004 or was independent of it.

Second, effective a few years ago, the FF matchups are arranged so that #1 and #2 at the beginning of the tournament are not in the same half of the draw -- i.e., #1 and #2, if they survive, will play in the finals not the semis.

I believe the NCAA would be thrilled to have a UNC-Duke final, and so would I.

sagegrouse

Usually I butcher the interpretation of other people's posts. In this case, I butchered my own post. The last sentence of the second para. ("I can't remember....") was supposed to be at the end of the third para.

Sorry,

sagegrouse

yancem
12-21-2008, 10:09 AM
As for needing Plumlee and Williams against UNC- I fail to see how getting a couple more minutes against Xavier would change much of anything. Do you really think that would prepare him to go chest to chest against Hansbrough? It would seem that getting more out of Zoubek and building his growing confidence is much more important right now. He needs to learn to play without fouling and that comes with playing. Zoubek is turning a corner as a player. Plumlee will have his time- right now Zoubek and Thomas need to keep improving and developing. Zoubek and Thomas were having great games. Sitting them on the bench to get Plumlee a couple more minutes would seem to be counter productive. Williams got some minutes in crunch time and struggled- but got minutes. K is playing a lot of players and is getting a lot out of Zoubek and Thomas and McClure. That is where his focus needs to be. Plumlee will have his time down the road and his presence and play in practice may be helping Zoubek and Thomas more than we know.

This is a good point. Put me in the corner of playing and developing our bench, but I think that this is an exception. Normally we have cases of some talented but young and inexperienced player languishing on the bench while one of our stars is basically padding his stats during a blowout. This is clearly not the case with Plumlee. While Zoubek is a junior, he has missed extensive time over the past two seasons and really trying to learn the college game himself. He is vastly improved but still developing. We need him logging minutes now so that he can be that much better later in the season. He's only playing 14 mpg so would you really want him playing less? Thomas does has extensive playing time under his belt, but this is the first time that he has been used as any kind of offensive option so he too needs as much time on the court as he can get. He's only averaging 18 mpg.

Really, the only way to get Plumlee more minutes without taking away from the development of Zoubek and Thomas would be to sub him for Singler. The problem with this is you would then have inexperience at both inside positions. I wouldn't mind seeing a little more of Thomas at the 4 alongside either Zoubek or Plumlee at the 5 but don't think that you can get away with this line up for long stretches because that would place the vast majority of the scoring load on Scheyer and Henderson.

Seeing as we are deep and experienced at the 1-3 spots, I would like to see Williams get a few more minutes.

As for the game, it was a lot of fun to watch and it was nice to see Scheyer look comfortable shooting again. He can shoot like that (or at least close to that) consistently this season that would be great. If you can also add Henderson consistently playing the way he did yesterday, then this could be a very enjoyable season indeed.

bird
12-21-2008, 10:18 AM
I am coming to look at Zoubek in a different way.

Before: Big guy, a role player, still a bit of a "project" smell.

Now: A good all-round basketball player, and getting better.

My man can play basketball.

That's my main takeaway from this game.

mcdukie
12-21-2008, 10:30 AM
Bottom line it was a great win. We have beaten two teams in Purdue and Xavier that are better than they showed, a compliment to K and his preparation. Mark my word that we will be on the same side of the bracket of one of these teams come tourney time, that is what the NCAA likes to do.

blazindw
12-21-2008, 11:13 AM
Anyone notice that Zoubek's tip dunk is what triggered the CBS mercy rule? That's the kind of aggressiveness I love to see from him! He's really was confident, from the opening basket to the tip dunk that sent the entire nation to Houston.

I think if he continues to show that aggressiveness, dunking when he's in close, it will really continue to be a great benefit to our offense. When you're tall, you should take it strong to the hole everytime you can, and if you have to, you dunk someone's hand off. Zoub showed that strength today, and I loved it!

Saratoga2
12-21-2008, 12:25 PM
I am coming to look at Zoubek in a different way.

Before: Big guy, a role player, still a bit of a "project" smell.

Now: A good all-round basketball player, and getting better.

My man can play basketball.

That's my main takeaway from this game.


I thought Zoubek showed a lot of improvement and it was against some really talented players. His defense was particularly impressive. We all know he is developing and he showed well on offense and rebounding. I don't agree with the lead story today though, that he has really good hands. He still misses catching the ball at times and is not as strong on rebounding as Singler. That said, he is still a very effecctive center and getting better with each game.

Lord Ash
12-21-2008, 01:34 PM
Anyone else see the whole "Chevy Player of the Game" thing and wonder if that scholarship donation is coming from bailout money?

And do you think Jon's game will finally get rid of that new label he seems to have been assigned this year; "He is not a great shooter, but a great scorer." If you ask me, given his free throw shooting and the rest, he is BOTH.

Ultrarunner
12-21-2008, 02:19 PM
I thought Zoubek showed a lot of improvement and it was against some really talented players. His defense was particularly impressive. We all know he is developing and he showed well on offense and rebounding. I don't agree with the lead story today though, that he has really good hands. He still misses catching the ball at times and is not as strong on rebounding as Singler. That said, he is still a very effecctive center and getting better with each game.

Actually, Zoubs is about 19 percent more efficient in rebounding than is Singler (.32 reb/min vs .27reb/min). As Brian gets increasingly comfortable in the game, I expect the separation to increase.

When he learns to fully control his fouling, Brian may be very fun to watch ndeed. He already scores, rebounds, blocks and assists at a better rate than Lance. Conditioning and time on the court are all he really needs to be very effective.

Indoor66
12-21-2008, 02:32 PM
Anyone else see the whole "Chevy Player of the Game" thing and wonder if that scholarship donation is coming from bailout money?

IRRC this program has been continual for about 30+ years and IRRC the program is part of the advertising efforts of Chevrolet. As dollars are fungible and as Chevrolet continues to advertise, I guess either yes or no is the correct answer.

Lord Ash
12-21-2008, 03:20 PM
IRRC this program has been continual for about 30+ years and IRRC the program is part of the advertising efforts of Chevrolet. As dollars are fungible and as Chevrolet continues to advertise, I guess either yes or no is the correct answer.

Mushrooms notwithstanding, I will go with "yes" because it is wildly more entertaining to me:) This will REALLY annoy me when the Duke/UNC game comes up, because me -> tax dollars -> given to Chevy -> given to UNC for the Player of the Game -> me very angry that I am suddenly making donations to UNC.

Maybe Chevy should let individual taxpayers sponsor that?

On an on-topic note; it was VERY nice to see us hold them off. Anytime you get a jump like that on a really good team in the first, you want to see the dogs keep going for the throat and not allow a comeback. Usually a good team will come back and make a game of it; I was very happy to see that we did not allow that to happen.

I am feeling better and better about this team as the year goes on. Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas, I think, are one of the better "feel good" stories of the last few years in Duke basketball.

DukieInBrasil
12-21-2008, 04:36 PM
Iīve been saying that a healthy Z this year would really help the Devils be a better team than last year, and it may be happening already. I am so happy for Brian and all of the hard work he has put in to overcome the set-backs he has dealt with. Like Paulus, Z has never complained to the press about his injuries etc.
He is becoing a good basketball player. Go Zoubs!!!

Jumbo
12-21-2008, 06:06 PM
I hope everyone can appreciate just how an impressive a victory that was. The game was over at halftime. That was as dominant a half as we've seen in a long, long time. Most importantly, everything about that game was FUN. So, I hope you all enjoyed the win as much as I did. Otherwise, what's the point of watching?

Jumbo
12-21-2008, 06:45 PM
You've got to be kidding with some of this stuff ...


That is the team we have to gear up to beat in March Madness. People on this board can hem and haw all they want about having to win 6 games in a row, and how luck plays a part, and any given team on any given night. Bull Plonky.

Yeah, that's why the "best team" wins every year, right? That's why so many games end in one-point margins. That's why Patrick Sparks' shot kept bouncing on the rim. Because luck doesn't matter. Because you don't have to win six games in a row. Gotcha.


If somebody put a gun to your families' heads, and told you your family would die unless you could name 1 and only 1 team that would be in the FF, you would pick UNC. Anyone that doesn't pick UNC doesn't really love their family.

Uh ... wow.


UNC is the squad we have to worry about. If someone else beats them prior to the FF or NC title game, score ... We may not like it. It rankles, UNC being so good. But every game, and every practice, must be conducted with one thought foremost. We must prepare for UNC. In 1999, that is how every team thought of Duke and UConn. This year only UNC is at the top. We must prepare for the each team as they come, but a little bit of each game and each practice must be devoted to preparing to battle UNC.
You HAVE to be kidding. If UNC was the University of Northern California, this wouldn't even be an issue. You don't practice with one opponent in mind. You don't practice with the thought of facing some supposedly dominant team at some point in March (and no one did that in 1998-99, either). You <Herm Edwards) PLAY. TO WIN. THE GAME!</Herm Edwards>. We have plenty of tough games coming up against plenty of teams that can beat us. We should, and will, be worrying about two things: 1) The next opponent and 2) Ourselves. The only team we are competing against all season is Duke. The thought, every practice, should be "how much better can we be at the end of this session than we were at the beginning?" That's it. I'll worry about UNC when they are the next opponent. Until then, I've got bigger fish to fry.


I would still have traded eight more points off our margin for Plumlee, MP, and E-Will (to a lesser extent) to have garnered a few more minutes. Look, I love what Zoubs and Lance are doing down Low. Combined with Kyle, we are dangerous down low. But against UNC, we WILL need important minutes from E-Will and Plumlee, and possibly Marty as well.
What??? This team had to develop a killer instinct. This team found that quality in the first half. Elliot got his chance midway through the first half and anyone could see he wasn't remotely up to the standards the other eight guys brought to the floor. And guess what? In the end, he still got 11 minutes. Plumlee? How would a few more minutes against Xavier have done anything to prepare him to face UNC? Pocius? I'm rooting for Marty, but I don't think Duke needs seven wing players to beat UNC. In fact, we won't need important minutes from any of those guys unless foul trouble or injuries occur. And, again, a few extra minutes in a blowout against Xavier will mean NOTHING in their development and their ability to play against a totally different type of team. Practice. That's what will matter.


We all bemoan how Hanstravel gets all the calls, and how the refs call a foul if you blow on him. Well, that won't change. You can further bet that K won't put Kyle on Tyler for any significant stretch, to keep Kyle out of foul trouble (cause guarding Stephenson is no walk in the park for Kyle). That leaves Lance and Brian to guard Hans, or either Davis or Stephenson, depending on the lineup. That is 10 fouls.
You forgot McClure, who has done a surprisingly decent job on Hansbrough in the past, frustrating him with his mobility and anticipation. And I'm sure Singler could/would guard Hansbrough for stretches, especially late in the game. Oh, and Stephenson transferred to USC.


Between guarding Hans and the other fouls that always accumulate on a big, it is a dicey situation. Plum has to be ready to do more than flail hopelessly at Hans. I know he gets burn in practice, but by now he probably knows the moves of all the bigs on the team. And going against BZ and Lance is not going to get him ready for Hans.
And neither would five extra minutes against a Xavier team without any decent interior players. Geez, this is silly.


Practice time isn't game time, and he needs game time.
Says who? You? He's already received quite a bit of game time. His impact has been spotty at best. I mention this quite often, but playing in games when you're not prepared can retard your development. Duke, as a team, needed exactly what it got in the first half yesterday. We needed to step on someone's throat. We did that. The result -- a 31-point lead, major strides from Zoubek and Henderson, the dismantling of a top-10 team and the infusion of a real swagger -- was critical. Way more critical than an extra five minutes for our third-string center.

RelativeWays
12-21-2008, 06:50 PM
Anyone else see the whole "Chevy Player of the Game" thing and wonder if that scholarship donation is coming from bailout money?

They could amend the award to the player that helps their time pull out a close win against a team they should have beaten easier and call it the Chevy Taxpayers Bail-Out Player of the game. I think Singler won the award for us against URI ;);)

Bob Green
12-21-2008, 06:52 PM
You can further bet that K won't put Kyle on Tyler for any significant stretch, to keep Kyle out of foul trouble (cause guarding Stephenson is no walk in the park for Kyle). That leaves Lance and Brian to guard Hans, or either Davis or Stephenson, depending on the lineup.

I missed this the first time through but Alex Stepheson transferred so we don't have to worry about guarding him. Perhaps you meant Deon Thompson?

whereinthehellami
12-22-2008, 09:00 AM
What??? This team had to develop a killer instinct. This team found that quality in the first half. Elliot got his chance midway through the first half and anyone could see he wasn't remotely up to the standards the other eight guys brought to the floor. And guess what? In the end, he still got 11 minutes. Plumlee? How would a few more minutes against Xavier have done anything to prepare him to face UNC? Pocius? I'm rooting for Marty, but I don't think Duke needs seven wing players to beat UNC. In fact, we won't need important minutes from any of those guys unless foul trouble or injuries occur. And, again, a few extra minutes in a blowout against Xavier will mean NOTHING in their development and their ability to play against a totally different type of team. Practice. That's what will matter.

I gotta disagree with you on that one. Game time experience on that stage is invaluable and can't be simulated in practice. These kids are all going to be needed to step up and play for Duke at some point. You're up by 25, play the subs. Coach them up. If they screw up, let em play and coach them up. Just the other night Coach K started the subs to reward them and let them know that he needs them to step up their games. This was a perfect scenario for that to have happened. No one should have played 30 minutes or more in this blowout.

whereinthehellami
12-22-2008, 09:31 AM
From the boxscore...


Duke had 2x as many steals (9 to 4) and 3x as many blocks (7 to 2) as Xavier. Thats getting after it.


Duke outrebounded Xavier 32 to 31. This teams gotta alot of heart.


Duke forced Xavier into 16 TOs versus 8 assists.


Singler had 9 PTs, 8 RBs, 4 AS, 3 BKs, & 3 STs. Every game he fills the stat line.

slower
12-22-2008, 09:44 AM
Actually, Zoubs is about 19 percent more efficient in rebounding than is Singler (.32 reb/min vs .27reb/min). As Brian gets increasingly comfortable in the game, I expect the separation to increase.

Hey, I'm LOVING the progress that Zoubs is making. But I hope that you're not implying that Zoubs is a BETTER rebounder than Kyle. You're not really suggesting that , are you?

jv001
12-22-2008, 10:03 AM
I gotta disagree with you on that one. Game time experience on that stage is invaluable and can't be simulated in practice. These kids are all going to be needed to step up and play for Duke at some point. You're up by 25, play the subs. Coach them up. If they screw up, let em play and coach them up. Just the other night Coach K started the subs to reward them and let them know that he needs them to step up their games. This was a perfect scenario for that to have happened. No one should have played 30 minutes or more in this blowout.

Can't agree with you on this one. You just cannot play Miles and E-Will extra mins when it comes to taking away mins from Zoubs and Thomas. They need to earn playing time in practice. Zoubs and Thomas are trying to make that next step in their play and we need that far more than E-Will's and Miles playing time. The only two players that are getting 30+mins are Jon and Kyle and I don't see Williams or Plumlee playing those two postions. E-Wll cannot shoot the ball like Jon and Miles cannot do all the things Kyle does. However they can learn these skills in practice. I'm just enjoying this game and looking forward to our next game and the start of ACC action. Go Duke!

SupaDave
12-22-2008, 10:27 AM
Hey, I'm LOVING the progress that Zoubs is making. But I hope that you're not implying that Zoubs is a BETTER rebounder than Kyle. You're not really suggesting that , are you?

He's talking about efficiency. With tip-ins and things like that Zoubs should see the ball around the rim more.

whereinthehellami
12-22-2008, 01:33 PM
Can't agree with you on this one. You just cannot play Miles and E-Will extra mins when it comes to taking away mins from Zoubs and Thomas. They need to earn playing time in practice. Zoubs and Thomas are trying to make that next step in their play and we need that far more than E-Will's and Miles playing time. The only two players that are getting 30+mins are Jon and Kyle and I don't see Williams or Plumlee playing those two postions. E-Wll cannot shoot the ball like Jon and Miles cannot do all the things Kyle does. However they can learn these skills in practice. I'm just enjoying this game and looking forward to our next game and the start of ACC action. Go Duke!

Who is to say they aren't earning it in practice. Coach K started the backups the other night against UNC-Ash. If you're to believe the announcers from the UNC-Ash game it wasn't to punish the regular starters but to reward the reserves for their effort and let them know that they will be needed this year. I have hard time believing that these same players didn't "earn it" in the time between the two games.

What was the point of playing any player close to 30 minutes the other night. The benefits to giving the reserves time are two-fold. First you get to rest the starters for what is going to be a long season and secondly you get to develop the rest of the team. Coach K was just quoted the other day (Acc Sports Journal?) saying that Miles really only needed minutes and more experience.

pfrduke
12-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Who is to say they aren't earning it in practice. Coach K started the backups the other night against UNC-Ash. If you're to believe the announcers from the UNC-Ash game it wasn't to punish the regular starters but to reward the reserves for their effort and let them know that they will be needed this year. I have hard time believing that these same players didn't "earn it" in the time between the two games.

What was the point of playing any player close to 30 minutes the other night. The benefits to giving the reserves time are two-fold. First you get to rest the starters for what is going to be a long season and secondly you get to develop the rest of the team. Coach K was just quoted the other day (Acc Sports Journal?) saying that Miles really only needed minutes and more experience.

Teaching a team to play with a lead, particularly against a high quality opponent, is a very important skill to develop. How many times have we seen Duke get 15-25 point leads on teams (or the dreaded 17-point margins) only to have the opponent surge right back into the game? Putting the starters out there in a position to manage, maintain, and possibly extend the lead is at least as valuable, if not more so, than an extra 3-5 minutes of PT for Williams and/or Plumlee.

Second, it sends a bad message to the team if the coach treats 20-25 point leads as the equivalent of "game over."

Third, this whole "rest the starters so they don't get tired" business is silly. No one on our team is playing the kind of minutes on a regular basis that will result in them being tired at the end of the season. At the very least, playing 27 minutes vs. 30 minutes on Saturday will not result in anyone losing their legs in March. No Duke player is currently averaging 30 minutes per. 9 guys on Saturday played double digit minutes. We're using our depth.

Fourth, and I know this has been mentioned above, but Zoubek and Thomas are just as much in need of game time development as Plumlee. Neither are well-established post players, and both are still growing and still getting used to playing bigger roles. They are the two guys who will be getting the lion's share of the minutes down low, and the people they'll be playing with during those minutes are the other starters. Getting our best 8-9 players working together as a unit is more important than getting players 10-12 a couple spare minutes of PT.

XUOHTX
12-22-2008, 01:59 PM
Congrats on a big win. I had the pleasure(?) of being at the game and I have to say, the Duke fans were very classy. I have been in some hostile crowds and put up with some terrible fans but everyone at the game that I encountered was great. I hope we can meet again in March so we have an opportunity to show that wasn't our best effort.

jv001
12-22-2008, 02:12 PM
Who is to say they aren't earning it in practice. Coach K started the backups the other night against UNC-Ash. If you're to believe the announcers from the UNC-Ash game it wasn't to punish the regular starters but to reward the reserves for their effort and let them know that they will be needed this year. I have hard time believing that these same players didn't "earn it" in the time between the two games.

What was the point of playing any player close to 30 minutes the other night. The benefits to giving the reserves time are two-fold. First you get to rest the starters for what is going to be a long season and secondly you get to develop the rest of the team. Coach K was just quoted the other day (Acc Sports Journal?) saying that Miles really only needed minutes and more experience.

Players earn mins in practice, but it does not insure them extened mins. Had Duke played Xavier that night I doubt Coach K would have started all the reserves and certainly not played them almost 5 mins into the game. After the start the reserves still did not log mins the starters got. E-Will and Miles will get their chance. It's just going to take time. And the only two players I worry about getting tired by years end are Kyle and Jon. However I don't think that's going to be a problem this year. Kyle is not having the primary inside player to guard and Jon seems like the energizer bunny out there. I'm just enjoying the season so far and I'm quite pleased with the results so far. I really didn't expect to go undefeated this year. Go Duke!

jipops
12-22-2008, 02:54 PM
You <Herm Edwards) PLAY. TO WIN. THE GAME!</Herm Edwards>.

Great reference :)

SilkyJ
12-22-2008, 03:10 PM
Re: Playing the subs more in a blowout. I don't think there's a clearcut answer. Yes, E-Will and plumlee could have to play crucial minutes down the road in ACC play or in March and so getting them minutes now could be useful. At the same time, Lance and especially Zoubs are still developing and improving and since they are our starters (lance pretty much plays starters minutes) we need them to be the best they can be. In that same vein, this team is still learning to play together (this is Nolan's 1st year as our PG really, Kyle is only a soph, and zoubs hasn't played a lot b/c injuries for the last couple years...) so our "main" guys need time playing together in order for us to be the best team we can be.

I'm not sure where I come down on this issue. I was at the game and when we came out of the 7 minute TV timeout and Henderson and maybe Singler were still on the floor, I leaned over to my buddy and said "get those guys the **** out of there." (really b/c it would suck to see someone roll an ankle or something when we are up 30 with 6 minutes left). At the end of the day I do know one thing: IN K I TRUST...

WRT to the chevy scholarship issue: its an interesting debate. I wonder if these donations aren't "endowed" somehow going way back to when they began the program...

Tangentially, I know that Buick (who is part of GM which I know is somehow affiliated with Chevy) pulled their sponsorship of Tiger b/c of the economy.

bird
12-22-2008, 04:59 PM
I hope everyone can appreciate just how an impressive a victory that was. The game was over at halftime. That was as dominant a half as we've seen in a long, long time. Most importantly, everything about that game was FUN. So, I hope you all enjoyed the win as much as I did. Otherwise, what's the point of watching?

Definitely some sports magic - and I was getting some good old-fashion Duke vibe from the team. The punch-them-down then put-the-boot in stuff. The great Duke teams of my time liked pulling the wings off butterflies.

greybeard
12-22-2008, 05:33 PM
1. Seems to me that before anyone goes predicting UNC-Duke games they had better wait awhile; see how this team develops.

2. It is not simply a function of Z and L improving or continuing to grow, but rather the team's ability to function with each of them probably at different times being integral parts of the offense and defense. The extent to which this team can utilize, and I'll focus here on Z, Z's ability to make catches in balance in dangerous (for the other team) places and play off of that, the questions being asked about who can or will guard whom might be very, very different, even though experts might all agree that Hansbrough is the superior player.

In that regard, one only has to think back to the first UNC game and how effectively Duke used L's ability to catch on the move and how effectively L finished. That ability to cut through the heart of UNC's defense with tremendous efficiency on finishes at the rim set the tone for that game, that Carolina was never in.

L showed against Xavier a wonderful face up game with real strength to muscle the ball up when he got to the rim off the bounce. This was extraordinary. He must have had four or five such attacks at the basket, which alone represents more touches than we have been used to seeing him get.

Z we have all spoken about. Everybody in one way or another said they were extremely impressed. Me, I thought he was brilliant yet I thought he left a number of scoring chances, good ones out there. I say he left because I am beginning to see exterior players taking their lead from their receiver. They notice if he notices something and more and more once he starts to move they are ready to deliver.

Anybody who is discounting where this might lead to and the problems that efficient play of this sort from these two guys might present to anyone, UNC included, I believe is missing an exciting aspect of this season and its progression.

Eliot and Miles have to be playing terrific ball in practice for this team to be as sharp as it is. Both need to establish themselves as Duke students first and foremost and get more and more ready to contribute should the opportunity(s) present. I believe that they probably will, and will not be surprised if either or both provides some wows before the season is done. Evertime I see Williams on the court and see noone who can quite match up with what I am looking at. I don't know any other way to say it. The guy has real long arms, real long, is a long but muscular 6'4", and seems always to have to be holding back. It feels to me that he takes the court KNOWING that he can control play and do what he wants; now, he may be wrong, but that is the look of him. If I am even half right and he is even half right, given what we have seen about how he can go to the defensive board, charge down the court, well, who exactly do other teams have coming off a bench that are going to deal with that? What guy who has been chasing Scheyer and Gerald and Smith around all evening and are confronted with a quarter of what might be the reality of Eliot Williams is going to have a chance against him.

Not saying that Williams is going to explode and really excite some people, just that he might. In the meantime, he needs to contribute to this team, acclimate himself to being a member of one of the premier places of learning in the world, and soak in all he can from one of the finest educators around. Oh, and enjoy the heck out of terrorizing Jon and Gerald who have to contend with him in practice.

Miles in the little I've seen of him does not show like he is just happy to get a chance to be on the floor. He shows like he like he is ready to impact play--to make decisions that count and then make them count. (that wasn't redundant although it sure sounds like it). Guys playing ahead of him have to know that, and I'm sure that their play reflects it. He too needs just to work at becoming a Duke student and enjoy the heck out of competing against some of the best front court players in the country, and probably giving as well as he gets, at least a decent portion of the time.

Hey, I'm sure that Carolina and UConn have similar things going on, and no one hear (that woud be me) is saying that Duke is or will be the best. No one is saying that they aren't or won't be either.

DukePA
12-22-2008, 05:48 PM
Congrats on a big win. I had the pleasure(?) of being at the game and I have to say, the Duke fans were very classy. I have been in some hostile crowds and put up with some terrible fans but everyone at the game that I encountered was great. I hope we can meet again in March so we have an opportunity to show that wasn't our best effort.

Thank you, that really means a lot. We catch a lot flack as Duke fans so it is nice to receive a compliment instead of the usual Duke bashing. Everything I've read from X fans on this board has been very classy and friendly.

roywhite
12-22-2008, 06:05 PM
Seems like every season reminds us how difficult the transition can be from high school to big-time college basketball.

Our 3 freshmen through 11 games have averaged the following total:

24 minutes/gm
4.8 rebounds/gm
3.4 points/gm
1.0 ast/gm
2.8 TO/gm

It will be interesting to see what progress they make as the season goes on, though playing time will become even harder to attain as conference games begin. Also interesting to see this Duke team have good depth, even without major contributions from the frosh.

Jumbo
12-22-2008, 06:25 PM
I gotta disagree with you on that one.
That's fair.


Game time experience on that stage is invaluable and can't be simulated in practice.

Based on what? Different players and coaches have different views on that. Some will agree with you. Some won't. Some think players reinforce bad habits by playing in games before they are ready. Others think they need to work through their mistakes in games before being ready to play. It's hardly a clear-cut proposition, and it probably depends on the individual kid as much as anything.


These kids are all going to be needed to step up and play for Duke at some point.
At some point this season? Or at some point in their careers? If it's later in their careers, a lack of playing time this season won't mean anything. (BTW, they've still played a pretty decent # of minutes this season, and made some decent contributions at times.) But this team doesn't need Plumlee, Williams and Pocius to be major contributors in order to be a good team this year. In fact, if the top eight guys stay healthy, keep improving and play as well together as they did against Saturday, Duke wouldn't need to play anyone else against a good team. That said, I trust K when he says Plumlee could make a leap and really help the team, although I question where the minutes will come for him (given how well Zoubek and Thomas have played). And I think Elliot is a luxury item this team. He can take as long as he needs to grow, because there is such depth in the backcourt. The three starters are tremendous. Paulus is a vet. And while I never imagined McClure figuring into the picture at the 3 this year, he has done quite well in that spot. His defense, intelligence and effort really help this team.

Williams has looked good in spurts. I really liked his defense in the first Michigan game, as well as his ability to drive along the baseline and finish in traffic. I also think he's had the proverbial "deer in the headlights" look in other games. And he clearly wasn't in synch against Xavier ... yet he still played 11 minutes. Hard to argue that he deserved more than that.


You're up by 25, play the subs. Coach them up. If they screw up, let em play and coach them up.

It's that simple? "Coach them up?" What does that even mean? Coach K is trying to develop a TEAM, and a huge part of that involves getting his key guys comfortable playing together in a variety of situations. One of those situations is protecting a big lead. Another is expanding a big lead -- searching for that killer instinct. And it's not like he was sticking with an iron five -- even in games where EW, Plumlee and Pocius don't play much, Duke has a strong eight-man rotation.


Just the other night Coach K started the subs to reward them and let them know that he needs them to step up their games.
Indeed. And when they came out for the game, Asheville was leading. Right now, there is real separation between our eighth and ninth men. There is also plenty of time for Elliot or Miles or Marty to step up, contribute more and earn a role. A few extra minutes against Xavier would not make a difference if that's the goal.


No one should have played 30 minutes or more in this blowout.
And maybe it wouldn't have been a blowout if a couple of guys didn't play 30 minutes (which, btw, is not that strenuous, especially with an 11-day layoff). Duke got outscored by 14 points with Elliot Williams on the court. How much more should he have played? Others have mentioned that Zoubek and Thomas still need reps. K was clearly trying to get Gerald more into the flow of the offense. There are only 200 minutes to go around in a regulation game. Duke has 12 scholarship players, and most are experienced and talented. Some are significantly better than others. Someone has to sit.

greybeard
12-22-2008, 09:26 PM
I agree with Jumbo about the deer-in-the-head-lights comment, thought exactly the same thing once in that last game, but here's what I'm guessing, no facts (now there's a freakin surprise), but a strong intuition:

Some guys have a lost look because they do not know what to do out there, maybe most guys who have that look have it for that reason. I don't think that that is Eliot's issue. I think that Eliot knows exactly what to do, that he feels it down to his bones, only he knows that K will sit him if he even looks again like he's thinking about it.

I say "again," because I am reminded of a play that the kid made in the first game I saw him in, which was not I believe was the first game he played. You guys know the one, he either stole it or grabbed a rebound and took off, saw someone running the lane on his right, and let it rip, behind his back in full stride, never touching it with his right hand. Nope, it didn't connect. But, I found myself saying to myself, no one will watch with me any longer, "Wow, reminds me of that lefty who went to GT, no not Beck, the first lefty, only this kid's got muscles and size. But the same type of savy, the same type of confidence, the same spirit. This kid is lost because when he takes the court he means to own it, all of it. Know what, if he can shoot the damn thing from distance, and gets his feet on the ground at Duke, I mean really get's into life and studies there, K just might give him that chance. Yeap, not JWill, but the kid can rebound it in a crowd and be gone, and I don't think getting to the rim n such runouts will be an issue.

Hey, it's as good a guess as he was confused. Confused? This kid was born to play this game, you can see it in the way he walks.

Kedsy
12-22-2008, 09:34 PM
I agree with Jumbo about the deer-in-the-head-lights comment, thought exactly the same thing once in that last game, but here's what I'm guessing, no facts (now there's a freakin surprise), but a strong intuition:

Some guys have a lost look because they do not know what to do out there, maybe most guys who have that look have it for that reason. I don't think that that is Eliot's issue. I think that Eliot knows exactly what to do, that he feels it down to his bones, only he knows that K will sit him if he even looks again like he's thinking about it.

Well, I don't entirely agree with your assessment; it looks to me like the game is still going a bit fast for Eliot. His body is moving more quickly than his mind is processing what it should do.

That said, I completely agree that he's looking over his shoulder every time he does something wrong. In the first half against Xavier he put up one three-pointer that smacked the backboard and bounced off, never touching net, rim, or anything close. Afterwards, he must have looked over at the bench four or five times while he should have been getting back on defense. It appeared to me that he was trying to see if anyone was heading over to the scorer's table to replace him. It's hard to play when you think you're getting pulled if you make a single mistake, and IMO that's what's in his head right now.

greybeard
12-22-2008, 11:19 PM
Well, I don't entirely agree with your assessment; it looks to me like the game is still going a bit fast for Eliot. His body is moving more quickly than his mind is processing what it should do.

Yea, I can see that but think the causes are different than you presume. I think that this kid knows exactly what he'd do if he were allowed to be him and does not "get" trying to be someone else, not on a basketball floor, not where he can fly. Question for me is how high. JTII said recently he had lots of kids that wanted to fly, wanted the freedom that he allowed Iverson, but had met only a very few who could really do it, or who he'd let do it. In my memory, there was really only one player who K let loose in that way, and he was primo special, spectacular. Thst would be JWill.

Before everyone starts getting all worked up, I am not comparing William's skill set to JWill. However, there is something about how he positions himself on the offside, and snatches rebounds an opponent thinks is his, snatches it with one hand and grabs it with the other on the way down, even while he is turning, knowing before he looks that whatever is there will be no impediment, maybe at most a puzzle a slide or a side step, maybe a behind the back dribble, will evade, and then, well let the games begin.

This is a different type talent than K and his assistants are used to dealing with, sort of like a 7' 1" center who has a slower rhythm to how he moves than they would like. This kid is a poor man's Kobe, is who he is, he has the glide and vision and daring of a Kobe, but no where near the shot. Whether he can score with diversity on the way to the rim, and find a range on a long shot to make people guard him, remains to be seen. Also remains to be seen if he can play the two, which is oh so not his style. If he can, and if he and Smith can share the 1, alternating on the fly, you might see K altering this team's style of play justas he has been in the process of doing to take full advantage of Z.

Who knows. You have to admit though, for a piece of what if, it does read good. :rolleyes:

Ultrarunner
12-23-2008, 12:58 AM
Hey, I'm LOVING the progress that Zoubs is making. But I hope that you're not implying that Zoubs is a BETTER rebounder than Kyle. You're not really suggesting that , are you?

Zoubs is more efficient at getting rebounds. That doesn't mean that he's a better rebounder than Kyle. Kyle is very active and has a good nose for the ball. The best rebounder on the team just might be Williams - certainly he has been putting up some gaudy stats for a freshman guard as he breaks into the system.

That said, Zoubs has some natural advantages in rebounding. He's usually 3-5 inches taller than his counterpart. His role on the team is more narrowly defined. He's also a lot closer to the basket more often than Singler which helps his stats.

As Zoubs gets more game time to round completely into shape and really learn what he can (and can't) do on the court, I think that you will see even better efficiency. If we don't, it is not good news. Combined, Lance and Brian have 5 more rebounds than Kyle with a lower rate of efficiency (.25reb/min) as a result of Lance's current lack of production in this area. We need both Brian and Lance to improve as the season progresses. Brian thus far has made larger strides as a rebounder and scorer. Lance is a much more active defender.

Personally, I really excited by Brian's progress. He seems to be a great kid that has had to deal with a some adversity and done so without complaint and with a great attitude. I think that he is maturing into a legitimate post player. While not necessarily a post presence that will strike fear into the opposition, he will draw some defensive attention and provide a defensive deterrent. That is a positive addition to the rotation from last year at the post and frees Kyle and Lance to do what they do best.

wisteria
12-23-2008, 01:31 AM
EW is averaging 14 minutes a game so far. Sure that his minutes will likely go down once ACC starts, but so far I think he's getting some burn. And his minutes haven't all come from the end-of-blow-out period. Look, last year we were all been complaining about Nolan's diminishing minutes. Guess what? Nolan turned the corner and proved himself in pre-season, and he's now a starter.

Miles' situation is different. While LT and Z are juniors, they are really like "freshman" in that they both have just stepped up their games and for the first time we are seriously trying to incorporate them into our system. Therefore they both need developing and the team needs to learn how to play with them. I do think Miles should play a bit more, but overall I'm not complaining.

geraldsneighbor
12-23-2008, 01:41 AM
A follow up to earlier posts about Xavier. I went in to the game with nothing but respect for the progrum run by Sean Miller and I left understanding the fans have the same morals. I think it was great regardless of the outcome for 2 class progrums to get together and play on a big stage like that. It really did showcase what college hoops to me are all about. I wish them the best of luck this season in defense of their A10 crown!

whereinthehellami
12-23-2008, 08:46 AM
That's fair.

Really what it comes down to, for me anyways, is that having players play over 30 minutes the other night was a wasted chance at developing depth. That simple. Not a big deal. Just my opinion.

Here are the minute numbers:

Henderson 33
Singler 32
Scheyer 31
Thomas 15
Williams 11
Plumlee 4
Pocius 2

jv001
12-23-2008, 09:36 AM
Really what it comes down to, for me anyways, is that having players play over 30 minutes the other night was a wasted chance at developing depth. That simple. Not a big deal. Just my opinion.

Here are the minute numbers:

Henderson 33
Singler 32
Scheyer 31
Thomas 15
Williams 11
Plumlee 4
Pocius 2

Using your numbers then I guess what you are saying:
Subtract these mins

Henderson 29 -4
Singler 29- 3
Scheyer 29 -2

Add those mins to

Thomas 15 +2 = 17
Williams 11 +0 = 11...about what he should get at present time
Plumleee 4 +4 = 8
Marty 2 =3= 5

I just don't think those added mins will help those players that much. And one of the coaches would have to keep up with the total mins to let Coach K know when one player is approaching the 30 min mark.

Jumbo
12-23-2008, 09:42 AM
Really what it comes down to, for me anyways, is that having players play over 30 minutes the other night was a wasted chance at developing depth. That simple. Not a big deal. Just my opinion.

Here are the minute numbers:

Henderson 33
Singler 32
Scheyer 31
Thomas 15
Williams 11
Plumlee 4
Pocius 2

I still don't understand. So, let's say you took four minutes away from Henderson, three away from Singler and two away from Scheyer. That puts everyone under 30. Then redistribute them. (Why are you including Thomas in here? He plays a ton every game. 15 minutes is a lot of time.) Say you gave 3 each of the three guys you mentioned. Would 14 minutes for Williams, 7 for Plumlee and 5 for Pocius made any more difference in their development? Really?

And, regardless of whether those guys play, we are deep. We have a legit eight-man rotation against anyone. That's a deep team. Williams has/will enable us to use at least nine guys in any game. That's really deep. Plumlee doesn't have to be a regular contributor. He just has to be ready when called upon. He's already received significant minutes on a number of occasions. We're deep.

jv001
12-23-2008, 09:53 AM
I still don't understand. So, let's say you took four minutes away from Henderson, three away from Singler and two away from Scheyer. That puts everyone under 30. Then redistribute them. (Why are you including Thomas in here? He plays a ton every game. 15 minutes is a lot of time.) Say you gave 3 each of the three guys you mentioned. Would 14 minutes for Williams, 7 for Plumlee and 5 for Pocius made any more difference in their development? Really?

And, regardless of whether those guys play, we are deep. We have a legit eight-man rotation against anyone. That's a deep team. Williams has/will enable us to use at least nine guys in any game. That's really deep. Plumlee doesn't have to be a regular contributor. He just has to be ready when called upon. He's already received significant minutes on a number of occasions. We're deep.

We are deep and really deep in the backcourt. So Williams needs to pick up his play both in practice and in games to get more mins than he is presently receiving. Actually he is lucky because he could be getting the # of mins Miles is receiving. Both just need to wait their turn. I will be very happy if our 8 man rotation(maybe 9) is being used in March. That means the bench is making a considerable contribution. I like our team. Go Duke!

Saratoga2
12-23-2008, 10:56 AM
Zoubs is more efficient at getting rebounds. That doesn't mean that he's a better rebounder than Kyle. Kyle is very active and has a good nose for the ball. The best rebounder on the team just might be Williams - certainly he has been putting up some gaudy stats for a freshman guard as he breaks into the system.

That said, Zoubs has some natural advantages in rebounding. He's usually 3-5 inches taller than his counterpart. His role on the team is more narrowly defined. He's also a lot closer to the basket more often than Singler which helps his stats.

As Zoubs gets more game time to round completely into shape and really learn what he can (and can't) do on the court, I think that you will see even better efficiency. If we don't, it is not good news. Combined, Lance and Brian have 5 more rebounds than Kyle with a lower rate of efficiency (.25reb/min) as a result of Lance's current lack of production in this area. We need both Brian and Lance to improve as the season progresses. Brian thus far has made larger strides as a rebounder and scorer. Lance is a much more active defender.

I see Zoubek as a formidable defender inside due to his size and increasing savy. I don't see him as having great hands, but insteead would rate him as adequate. I don't understand why he would be trying to defend smaller and quicker players at the three point line. Why not switch to someone who can?

As far as Thomas is concerned, he is quicker and very aggressive on defense. My problem with that kind of aggression is that to me he seems out of position and we don't do well on help defense with him in the game. I would prefer him to tone down the aggression and anticipate the game more on defense.

Personally, I really excited by Brian's progress. He seems to be a great kid that has had to deal with a some adversity and done so without complaint and with a great attitude. I think that he is maturing into a legitimate post player. While not necessarily a post presence that will strike fear into the opposition, he will draw some defensive attention and provide a defensive deterrent. That is a positive addition to the rotation from last year at the post and frees Kyle and Lance to do what they do best.

I added comment internal to the quoted area and it software didn't like that approach. Anyway, my comment is in the body of the original.

whereinthehellami
12-23-2008, 01:25 PM
I still don't understand. So, let's say you took four minutes away from Henderson, three away from Singler and two away from Scheyer. That puts everyone under 30. Then redistribute them. (Why are you including Thomas in here? He plays a ton every game. 15 minutes is a lot of time.) Say you gave 3 each of the three guys you mentioned. Would 14 minutes for Williams, 7 for Plumlee and 5 for Pocius made any more difference in their development? Really?

And, regardless of whether those guys play, we are deep. We have a legit eight-man rotation against anyone. That's a deep team. Williams has/will enable us to use at least nine guys in any game. That's really deep. Plumlee doesn't have to be a regular contributor. He just has to be ready when called upon. He's already received significant minutes on a number of occasions. We're deep.

So you are asking if doubling the time that Plumlee and Williams played against Xavier would help them develop? Probably more than it helped Henderson, Singler, and Scheyer develop.

Keep in mind that the second part to this discussion is how the minutes played affect players at the end of the year. Duke has fizzled the last few years in the tourney. Granted alot of factors are at play in each of the losses but Duke has looked tired, especially the players who log the most minutes. If you don't agree with that than I guess we just see things differently.

Jumbo
12-23-2008, 02:28 PM
So you are asking if doubling the time that Plumlee and Williams played against Xavier would help them develop? Probably more than it helped Henderson, Singler, and Scheyer develop.
It doesn't double the time Williams played. He got 11 minutes. He would have received an additional three minutes. So, I ask you again, would that have made a difference? Same with the other people. In the end, doubled or not, it's still three minutes. What would those three minutes have meant in your nebulous world of "development."
BTW, Duke got outscored by 14 points with Williams in the game. How much more should he have played? Based on that trend, would Duke even have enjoyed such a big lead if he got more minutes?
And, again, it's not about Singler, Scheyer and Henderson "developing" individually. It's about those guys improving as a group. They got a chance to play in a couple of different situations yesterday, including during a time when we tried to put a team away, rather than coast to a 15-point win, and another period where we were trying to maintain a huge lead. There are lessons to be learned for those guys, too.
And another thought on this -- how much "development" occurs when Williams, Plumlee, Pocius, etc. are in without multiple starters. Based on what you said earlier, it seems like you want them ready to handle situations if someone is hurt, tired, in foul trouble etc. in a close game. In that case, the best preparation (if you believe game prep is the only true way to improve) is to put them on the court with other starters. If you do that, by necessity, you limit the amount of time where that's possible (since the end-of-the-bench guys can't be in together).


Keep in mind that the second part to this discussion is how the minutes played affect players at the end of the year. Duke has fizzled the last few years in the tourney. Granted alot of factors are at play in each of the losses but Duke has looked tired, especially the players who log the most minutes. If you don't agree with that than I guess we just see things differently.

And as I've said 1,000 times, the difference between playing 29 minutes vs. 33 minutes on Dec. 20, with 11 days off to follow, means absolutely nothing in terms of energy in March. This team is deeper than the past two teams, but also better. And the reason Duke "fizzled" in 2007 was that they weren't that good. Last year? Variety of factors. But I'll argue forever that Singler's constant pounding down low (as an undersized frosh 5) was the issue, not the number of minutes played. That, and the fact that like half the team was hurt.

davekay1971
12-23-2008, 02:38 PM
And the reason Duke "fizzled" in 2007 was that they weren't that good. Last year? Variety of factors. But I'll argue forever that Singler's constant pounding down low (as an undersized frosh 5) was the issue, not the number of minutes played. That, and the fact that like half the team was hurt.

I'm just quoting that because it's worth reading again. Succinct and accurate.

Matches
12-23-2008, 02:39 PM
I go back and forth as to whether too many minutes wears down your typical college Bball player. These are extremely well-conditioned young men. Shane Battier played almost every minute his senior year and seemed fine in the postseason.

The retort to that is "well not everyone is Shane Battier", and that's fair, but you're left assessing each player individually, which makes it problematic to just roll down the roster and say everyone should be under 30 mpg if possible.

Worth noting - only one player on last year's team averaged over 30 mpg, and that was Nelson. Singler (who clearly did look tired at season's end) was under 30 mpg. Not all minutes are created equal, and not all kids are created equal. I have become very weary of the "team is tired" thing in March, but there HAS to be more to it than just how many minutes people play. Leaving someone on the court 2-3 extra minutes in a game in December just can't make a significant difference in March.

jv001
12-23-2008, 03:16 PM
Shane Battier played almost every minute his senior year and seemed fine in the postseason.

The retort to that is "well not everyone is Shane Battier", and that's fair, but you're left assessing each player individually, which makes it problematic to just roll down the roster and say everyone should be under 30 mpg if possible.

Worth noting - only one player on last year's team averaged over 30 mpg, and that was Nelson. Singler (who clearly did look tired at season's end) was under 30 mpg. Not all minutes are created equal, and not all kids are created equal. I have become very weary of the "team is tired" thing in March, but there HAS to be more to it than just how many minutes people play. Leaving someone on the court 2-3 extra minutes in a game in December just can't make a significant difference in March.

I must agree that last year Singler was tired(Coach said so) and it was from playing D against the other teams' # 5. That pounding can hurt. However D-Mark was the best conditioned athlete on the team and he did not look tired, but I assumed he was because his offense fell off at years end. Now that I have time to think about that, it could have been that he was over achieving on his shooting at the beginning of the year. His shot was never picture perfect and his release was slow. Some have said that Duke's practice sessions are very tiring and that could be why he became tired.(if he was) Or it could be that he was sick but he denied that. Well I don't know because I've never been to one practice session so I don't know how hard they are. But I seriously doubt that playing 30+ mins per game will affect someone's play. If it did I have to believe Coach K would do something about that. So I'm just going to trust Coach. Go Duke!

quickgtp
12-23-2008, 03:31 PM
I have to agree with Jumbo in the fact that is had to be the consistent guarding of big men that wore Singler down. I will also say that I was at the Duke/WVU game, sitting near their bench. Some of those guys sounded terrible in that you could hear and see the consistent hacking/coughing by some of the players, most notably Nelson, Thomas, and Singler. There is no way that those guys were not sick or fighting something off.....

whereinthehellami
12-23-2008, 04:25 PM
And as I've said 1,000 times, the difference between playing 29 minutes vs. 33 minutes on Dec. 20, with 11 days off to follow, means absolutely nothing in terms of energy in March.

You are looking at this game as a solitary entity. If you take a macro approach, you can see that all of these factors (minutes played, player development, fatigue, injury) are related and that a season is built in a cumulative progression. Think of it as a brick house. Each game is a brick. While each game is important, the house is the overall goal. What this was (in my opinion), was a missed opportunity to foster some player development and establish a pattern of not playing your experienced star players more than 30 minutes a game.

And as to would a minute or two matter here or there for the reserves, I would say of course. Ask any player. Did you ever play any ball? If so, did PT matter to you? Coach K always says that each player is on their own journey of development. Its hard to make progress on your journey when you are on the bench. And practice is practice. It helps with experience but only so far.

Jumbo
12-23-2008, 05:12 PM
You are looking at this game as a solitary entity. If you take a macro approach, you can see that all of these factors (minutes played, player development, fatigue, injury) are related and that a season is built in a cumulative progression. Think of it as a brick house. Each game is a brick. While each game is important, the house is the overall goal. What this was (in my opinion), was a missed opportunity to foster some player development and establish a pattern of not playing your experienced star players more than 30 minutes a game.
If each game is a brick, two or three minutes is like a pebble. And what is the relevance of 30 minutes? It's a completely arbitrary number. Plus, you refuse to acknowledge any of the other important bricks that needed to be built that had nothing to do with Pocius, Plumlee or Williams. In fact, you've ignored all my other arguments, and just keep repeating that no one should have played more than 30 minutes and that these other guys deserved more time because it magically could have helped them in some way.


And as to would a minute or two matter here or there for the reserves, I would say of course. Ask any player. Did you ever play any ball? If so, did PT matter to you?

Played a ton of ball. PT mattered to me -- I wanted lots of it, didn't enjoy little of it. An additional three minutes did not matter to me. However, if I didn't understand concepts in practice, I certainly didn't want to get busted in a game. That wasn't the place to learn. Then again, I usually understand concepts. Then again, I never was competing with multiple experienced high school All-Americans.


Coach K always says that each player is on their own journey of development. Its hard to make progress on your journey when you are on the bench. And practice is practice. It helps with experience but only so far.
So you say. I disagree. So do many other players and coaches. I've seen it firsthand. I've posted versions of this story (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219069&postcount=174) countless times, and I'm tired of retyping it. Thank goodness for the archive.

sagegrouse
12-23-2008, 05:36 PM
You are looking at this game as a solitary entity. If you take a macro approach, you can see that all of these factors (minutes played, player development, fatigue, injury) are related and that a season is built in a cumulative progression. Think of it as a brick house. Each game is a brick. While each game is important, the house is the overall goal. What this was (in my opinion), was a missed opportunity to foster some player development and establish a pattern of not playing your experienced star players more than 30 minutes a game.

And as to would a minute or two matter here or there for the reserves, I would say of course. Ask any player. Did you ever play any ball? If so, did PT matter to you? Coach K always says that each player is on their own journey of development. Its hard to make progress on your journey when you are on the bench. And practice is practice. It helps with experience but only so far.

This argument has been made as long as I have been on this Board. While I --like most everyone -- would really like to see the freshmen get more minutes, that's not the way college basketball works.

A. You earn your PT in practice (so says K; Ol' Roy says "The players decide who plays, I don't.")

B. "Best five players on the court; best play each possession; best defense each time down the court" (JT II). The coaching staff is looking far deeper at what is going on than most of us can appreciate. A basketball game is an incredibly intense tactical operation. And a quasi-strategic question like, wqould so-and-so be better next year if he has a few more minutes this year, never enters the decision process and I don't think it should (see point A).

And when the issue is no longer in doubt, the coaches may be far more interested in trying variations on plays and defense for the next game than in getting minutes for players who won't be a factor this year.

So I find the argument for getting more PT for freshmen basketballers at Duke to be a bit beside the point.

sagegrouse
'My goodness, I hope I don't become arrogant in my old age'

gep
12-23-2008, 11:13 PM
Ol' Roy says "The players decide who plays, I don't."

I thought that this might also mean that it's the "players" that earn PT in practice... if they "decide" that they really want PT...:rolleyes: Maybe a convoluted way of saying the PT is earned in practice?

sagegrouse
12-24-2008, 12:03 AM
I thought that this might also mean that it's the "players" that earn PT in practice... if they "decide" that they really want PT...:rolleyes: Maybe a convoluted way of saying the PT is earned in practice?

Yes, I should have been clearer. Those are two sides of the same coin. Players decide who play means exactly that -- you earn your PT in practice.

sagegrouse

Kedsy
12-24-2008, 12:13 AM
Keep in mind that the second part to this discussion is how the minutes played affect players at the end of the year. Duke has fizzled the last few years in the tourney. Granted alot of factors are at play in each of the losses but Duke has looked tired, especially the players who log the most minutes. If you don't agree with that than I guess we just see things differently.

A 20 year old kid can play for hours and he won't be tired two days later. Granted, these kids practice every day and if the practices are brutal I can see that wearing them down after four months, but Jumbo's right -- there's no possible way that the difference between 29 minutes and 33 minutes in December has even the smallest effect in March.

The way you asked Jumbo if he ever played ball, I assume that you have. So think back to a game you played on a Saturday; if you had played 15 minutes longer would you have noticed a difference in a game the following Wednesday? How about three weeks later? How about three months later?

MChambers
12-24-2008, 07:56 AM
A 20 year old kid can play for hours and he won't be tired two days later. Granted, these kids practice every day and if the practices are brutal I can see that wearing them down after four months, but Jumbo's right -- there's no possible way that the difference between 29 minutes and 33 minutes in December has even the smallest effect in March.

The way you asked Jumbo if he ever played ball, I assume that you have. So think back to a game you played on a Saturday; if you had played 15 minutes longer would you have noticed a difference in a game the following Wednesday? How about three weeks later? How about three months later?

In fact, wouldn't 3 additional minutes for our key players increase their endurance (slightly), so that when we need them to play 35 minutes in a big game, they'll be ready?

Devilsfan
12-24-2008, 08:18 AM
Duke really played great last Saturday but let's keep it real. Xavier is lucky to be a top 25 team. In fact they just got beat by Butler. They stink and don't seem to be coached very well, imo. How do you say totally OVERRATED!

pfrduke
12-24-2008, 09:54 AM
In fact, wouldn't 3 additional minutes for our key players increase their endurance (slightly), so that when we need them to play 35 minutes in a big game, they'll be ready?

Would you like to take a bet right now that neither Williams nor Plumlee will play 35 minutes in any game, let alone a big game, this season? Because I've got good, solid money that says they definitely will not.

MChambers
12-24-2008, 10:20 AM
Would you like to take a bet right now that neither Williams nor Plumlee will play 35 minutes in any game, let alone a big game, this season? Because I've got good, solid money that says they definitely will not.

I said our key players. That means Singler, Scheyer, and Henderson. Want to bet on that one?

pfrduke
12-24-2008, 10:52 AM
I said our key players. That means Singler, Scheyer, and Henderson. Want to bet on that one?

Totally misunderstood. My bad. In that case, I agree with your original post.

greybeard
12-24-2008, 11:38 AM
This discussion has gotten a tad metaphysical. We know players can get run down over the course of a season because we have all seen it. Can a guy get pushed beyond a point that his healthy, where he begins to break down physically or mentally (assuming that there is a difference which I don't) and that that series lead to a downward course that only extended rest will repair? Who knows.

This is what I believe from what I have seen of them, which ain't been much. If Plumlee, or Williams, or Marty had to play significant minutes during the course of several games for Duke because of injuries or sickness or someone failing a course or whatever, they, each of them, would comport themselves very well, and this team might well not be noticeably different. Maybe not the first game, but the second. And, while the style of play might have to change, I think that they can right now compete with the best of them.

That is not to say that they could replace the best of them. If this team losses one of its best, if Singler goes down, neither Plumlee nor Williams nor Marty nor any combination thereof will make up for that.

I think that the question, how deep a coach should go into the bench on a regular basis in junior high school and high school, and perhaps even college is one of the most under discussed important issues involved in sport. Let me repeat that.

In my high school, we won the sectional (league Championship) three years in a row, each year graduating all but one starter, with the coach's never going more than one deep, if that, into the bench except if fouls or injury dictated each year. Each of the second two years there were guys who NEVER played who the next year were all-league or better. The coach was offered but refused a freshman coaching job at a big time college. As an ethical issue, given the coach's roll, is this defensible?

There are permutations off of the question the facts in the above paragraph actually presented that warrant discussing. They are important, important questions, it seems to me. They are never asked.

It seems to me that that is the subtext whenever the issue of playing time is raised on this board. Perhaps sometime in the future, when things are slow after the season, a thread can be started when these issues can be kicked around. It would not only be fun, but I think very useful, perhaps beyond this board.

Coach K is giving lots of guys playing time this year whom I don't think that he has too. I think that that is great, and that the experience of the players on this team, whether it contributes in the end to more wins or a longer run or not, will ALL be the better for it. I congratulate K for it. I made a similar comment last year. Could he do more seems to be the issue some are raising. The debate has become mired in the issue of wins and losses. When you are in the hunt, the hunt for the Big Bear, it almost has to be. I think the other debate, the one that maybe we can have latter, is much more important.

You guys are terrific!

Indoor66
12-24-2008, 12:19 PM
It seems to me that some of the "Joey didn't get to play" crowd want to give everyone a trophy.

Youth and inexperience is best improved by growing older and learning from the more experienced. I agree with Jumbo in saying that throwing players into the mix too early can be destructive to their ego and development.

Cormac
12-31-2008, 10:16 AM
Duke really played great last Saturday but let's keep it real. Xavier is lucky to be a top 25 team. In fact they just got beat by Butler. They stink and don't seem to be coached very well, imo. How do you say totally OVERRATED!


I was visiting the fam for about a week and didn't have an opportunity to post on the game. So if anyone is still interested, I'll give my thoughts. Obviously, my X-Men didn't bother showing up and my Dukies kicked the crap out of them. My dream of having a great, down to the wire game never materialized and honestly, was over in 5 minutes when Duke shot out to a 18-1 lead. Xavier got punched in the mouth and never got up. But seriously, this quote couldn't be more off. Lucky to be top 25? Not well coached? They stink? Really? Are you sure about that? Last year, Miller and his X-men made it to the elite 8 (by beating who? Oh yeah, the team that knocked Duke out). There's a reason a lot of schools were looking hard at Sean last year (Michigan, Indiana among others). He is a great, great coach. Did Xavier get absolutely dominated in the first half? Yes. But they came back in the second half and won the half by 13. They didn't quit, which is usually a sign of a good coach. They could have lost by 40, not 18. Xavier has always been the little school that could and is just now adjusting to success. Duke has been there for many, many years. I said before the game that the PG spot would be the key to the game. Duke dominated it with a combination of Smith and Paulus. Xavier lacks an experienced, true PG and it showed big time. I thought Derrick Brown would play well, and he did. He almost got to the 20 I thought he could (finished with 18). Their O had no flow, and no one to settle them down. Yes, they lack some leadership, but that will happen when you lose your starting backcourt from the previous year. The Butler game was the quintessential trap game. It was played right before Christmas and right after they just got whacked on national tv. Its pretty easy to understand this loss. Excuse it? Not at all. But Butler is always a solid squad and Xavier was still recovering. This game was pretty similar to the 2nd meeting between UM and Duke this year. The X-men will bounce back, PROBABLY win the A-10, and maybe make a run in the tourny. However, their 8 man rotation is going to cause some serious problems if they get into foul trouble. Are they a top 10 team? Nope, not right now. Will they finish in the top 15-25? Yes, I think so. Although the A10 is pretty good this year (ask Tennessee and Kansas), I expect Xavier to win it. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Duke is very, very good and Xavier has a ways to go, but its a long season.