Heisman

[A-Tex Devil]

Since all the other college football threads are on topic, I assume this is.

Bradford winning is a joke. :) Any other year, I understand his stats are overwhelming, but consider he was a little over half of OU's total offense and Colt and Tebow were well over 60% (Colt was 70%), plus UT burying him in the turf, and I give up on the national media. I could throw for 3000 yards with those OU's offensive weapons. Stats and hot teams is all that matters for trophy that no longer matters. Seriously. Other than Tebow last year (who had a uniquely excellent season), every winner from the last 8 or 9 years played in the BCS championship and has not necessarily been the best player (or close.... Reggie Bush). Every Heisman voter should have to write a 500 word essay explaining their vote. Otherwise, I assume they are sheep, following the press and the stats. Take their vote away.

OU gets over on UT twice this year for nothing more than good timing. Stupid land thieves. At least at the end of the day, they have to live in Oklahoma. Anyway, rant over.....

[devilboomer]

Since all the other college football threads are on topic, I assume this is.

Bradford winning is a joke. :) Any other year, I understand his stats are overwhelming, but consider he was a little over half of OU's total offense and Colt and Tebow were well over 60% (Colt was 70%), plus UT burying him in the turf, and I give up on the national media. I could throw for 3000 yards with those OU's offensive weapons. Stats and hot teams is all that matters for trophy that no longer matters. Seriously. Other than Tebow last year (who had a uniquely excellent season), every winner from the last 8 or 9 years played in the BCS championship and has not necessarily been the best player (or close.... Reggie Bush). Every Heisman voter should have to write a 500 word essay explaining their vote. Otherwise, I assume they are sheep, following the press and the stats. Take their vote away.

OU gets over on UT twice this year for nothing more than good timing. Stupid land thieves. At least at the end of the day, they have to live in Oklahoma. Anyway, rant over.....

Disclaimer: self professed OU fan.

UT buried Bradford in the turf? Really?

Sam Bradford threw for 387 yds and 5 TDs against Texas, in a game where OU's running game was non-existent. OU may have lost the game, but it certainly wasn't a result of Bradford's play.

I wouldn't have been surprised if either of the 3 candidates won the trophy. All were deserving. To be honest, I would have voted for Colt, Bradford, then Crabtree, in that order. But to state that Bradford winning is a joke is a bit too much. Perhaps Billy Simms yelling "boomer" incessantly was a joke, but Bradford was not.

A lot of Heisman voters actually do explain their votes in their media outlets. David Mayo explained his vote for Bradford 1 and Tebow 2:

"Oklahoma's 45-35 loss to Texas was a study in frayed defensive, special-teams and rushing performances. The Longhorns scored on six of 10 drives, not including the one when all they needed was a kickoff return.

The Sooners were held to 48 rushing yards, their second-worst total of the year (TCU held them to 25), which put the entire game on Bradford, who threw for all five touchdowns, along with two interceptions. One interception led to a Texas field goal. The other came on the last play of a decided game.

The difference, to me, is that Tebow had a chance to alter the Mississippi outcome and didn't, while Bradford gave his teammates every opportunity to alter the Texas outcome and they didn't.

That may sound like nit-picking, but we're trying to decide a slice of Americana here."

[dukemomLA]

I agree with the poster. The Heisman Trophy this year.... and maybe a few more in this decade have become a joke... and a media hype. Bah Humbug. Does anyone care anymore? Quarterbacks every year? Again, bah humbug.

[miramar]

Since the Big XII chose OU over UT, Bradford had a big advantage over McCoy (as long as Oklahoma won the title game of course). If the Big XII had chosen based on the head-to-head matchup that UT won, then McCoy would have likely been the winner.

So in a sense the computer decided the Heisman this year.

You could also argue that McCoy hurt himself by scoring the go-ahead TD against Texas Tech too quickly, which gave them about a minute and a half to win the game (which they did with one second left). So ironically Colt could have won the Heisman as the only QB of an undefeated team if he had been a little less efficient.

[RelativeWays]

I'm glad Tebow lost, he's the Tyler Hansbrough of college football ("oh what effort, what heart, he's the greatest, yay!). Tebow IS a great player but a) he won it last year, b) Bradford had a great season too c) I'm tired of him....not that this has any bearing on the Heisman ballots. I wonder if Tebow will come back to UF next year? Like Hansbeaker, there are a lot of people who question whether Tebow will hack it in the NFL. I wonder if "heart and "effort" that these announcers go on and on about are euphemisms for "no discernible pro caliber skills"

[A-Tex Devil]

Disclaimer: self professed OU fan.

UT buried Bradford in the turf? Really?

Sam Bradford threw for 387 yds and 5 TDs against Texas, in a game where OU's running game was non-existent. OU may have lost the game, but it certainly wasn't a result of Bradford's play.

I wouldn't have been surprised if either of the 3 candidates won the trophy. All were deserving. To be honest, I would have voted for Colt, Bradford, then Crabtree, in that order. But to state that Bradford winning is a joke is a bit too much. Perhaps Billy Simms yelling "boomer" incessantly was a joke, but Bradford was not.

A lot of Heisman voters actually do explain their votes in their media outlets. David Mayo explained his vote for Bradford 1 and Tebow 2:

"Oklahoma's 45-35 loss to Texas was a study in frayed defensive, special-teams and rushing performances. The Longhorns scored on six of 10 drives, not including the one when all they needed was a kickoff return.

The Sooners were held to 48 rushing yards, their second-worst total of the year (TCU held them to 25), which put the entire game on Bradford, who threw for all five touchdowns, along with two interceptions. One interception led to a Texas field goal. The other came on the last play of a decided game.

The difference, to me, is that Tebow had a chance to alter the Mississippi outcome and didn't, while Bradford gave his teammates every opportunity to alter the Texas outcome and they didn't.

That may sound like nit-picking, but we're trying to decide a slice of Americana here."

I was being hyperbolic. But that was certainly the only game where Bradford's jersey was crimson and green instead of crimson and cream at the end of the game. Orakpo cost Phil Loadholt about $2MM in that game.

Bradford deserved the trophy -- let's just say Austin is a bit angry this year. OU and UT were equally deserving of 2 things now (I'll argue all day not, but let's be fair), and lost both in an arbitrary (but admittedly defined) manner. Hopefully 3 out of 4 will turn into 9 out of 10.

The fact is, Bradford had one game that was close, and he was stopped in the 4th quarter. He couldn't drive his team down to win the game and was stopped 3 times in the second half on drives that mattered (4 total). To me that's telling. But it was 2 months ago, I guess.

[duke74]

I'm glad Tebow lost, he's the Tyler Hansbrough of college football ("oh what effort, what heart, he's the greatest, yay!). Tebow IS a great player but a) he won it last year, b) Bradford had a great season too c) I'm tired of him....not that this has any bearing on the Heisman ballots. I wonder if Tebow will come back to UF next year? Like Hansbeaker, there are a lot of people who question whether Tebow will hack it in the NFL. I wonder if "heart and "effort" that these announcers go on and on about are euphemisms for "no discernible pro caliber skills"

Just a couple of things....

I would have voted for for Tebow...whether or not he will be a great (or good) pro is irrelevant for the Heisman. Watching him over the course of this year, I can't imagine anyone being better at running the offense and leading a team. The others had great seasons, and were worthy of the votes they received (and winning, in the case of Bradford), but Tebow was unreal (to me).

And, while this too is irrelevant for the decision, he seems like a wonderful young man - the third world work with his folks, his outlook, his personality. Just a great representative of Gator-land. (Again, I am not damning the others by faint praise, here - I'm just commenting on him. Bradford, McCoy, Harrell may all be saints...I just don't know enough about them)

So...I have no issues with the winner (or any of the final 3). I just would have voted for Tebow in consideration of the overall package. I for one am not tired of him...and wish him the best.

[rockymtn devil]

Whether fair or not, Tebow was being judged not only against the other candidates this year, but also Tebow-2007 and Archie Griffin. That's a steep hill to climb. The advantage he had was that the other candidates all came from the same region and, therefore, had the potential to split votes.

If I were voting:
1. McCoy
2. Bradford
3. Crabtree (who, along with Beanie Wells, is the most NFL-ready skill player in the country)

[ricks68]

I watched the three players in question during the season and had a tough choice, myself. I leaned towards McCoy. I say lean because I really feel that he had the best receiving corps overall. That certainly can make any quarterback look very good. In the loss to Texas Tech, the receivers dropped passes they usually had not dropped in the past.

McCoy's receivers just seemed to catch just about everything that was thrown their way this year. The big question is, however, whether or not the receivers were given a better opportunity to catch balls thrown to them due to very accurate throws by the quarterback. The answer to that question is a resounding yes in the case of McCoy. He seemed to know where the receiver was going to be and could put it there almost all of the time.

I thought that Bradford threw a better quality pass, however, in the OK game. It was a tighter spiral, and looked like it had more zip, even on the long passes. His accuracy was excellent, also. His awareness of where his receivers would be was not as polished as McCoy, however. So, with quarterback IQ in mind, I would have to give my lean to McCoy.

Oh, and that guy McCoy is really smart when he runs, also.

ricks

[Stray Gator]

Congrats to Sam Bradford and the Sooners. I believe any of the three candidates--and several others who were not invited to the ceremony--would have been deserving. Needless to say, as a concededly biased Gator fan peering through orange-and-blue glasses, I would have loved to see Tebow win the award again. And because I've been fortunate enough to enjoy the experience of being both a Gator and a Blue Devil for decades, I can understand the growing antipathy towards Tebow--we've seen the same attitude develop among opposing fans towards great Duke basketball players who were perceived as "media darlings."

For us Gator fans, there might be a silver lining--maybe even two layers. First, based on reports I've read this morning about the reactions of Tebow and his defensive teammates, I believe the Gators will use this "loss" as additional motivation for the BCSCG against OU on January 8th. Around the SEC, there's a common perception that the Big XII quarterbacks ran up video-game type passing stats this season because Big XII defenses are relatively weak. Around the Big XII, conversely, the conventional wisdom seems to be that the SEC, except perhaps for Alabama and Florida, consists of teams that are just weak overall. So now we'll have both the Gator defense and Tebow extra fired up to prove their merit against the team rated #1 and the player voted #1.

Second, I suspect this will tip the balance in favor of Tebow deciding to come back for his senior year. Whether you believe as I do that he chooses to stay because he still wants to lead UF to an undefeated season and compete for a second Heisman, or you prefer to believe that he's afraid he won't be good enough to play in the NFL, I hope that Tebow stays for the very selfish reason that I'd appreciate the chance to watch him play another season in the Swamp. And that's not just because I'm a Gator who is fortunate enough to have season tickets. It's because I am convinced--and many experienced observers evidently agree--that Tim Tebow might very well be the greatest college football player of this generation. I want to see Tebow come back for the same reason I wanted Shane Battier and Jason Williams and guys like that to come back--their presence makes the game more fun to watch.

[adam]

It's because I am convinced--and many experienced observers evidently agree--that Tim Tebow might very well be the greatest college football player of this generation. I want to see Tebow come back for the same reason I wanted Shane Battier and Jason Williams and guys like that to come back--their presence makes the game more fun to watch.

I absolutely agree. In my opinion, Tim Tebow is to college football as to what Shane Battier was to college basketball.

[rockymtn devil]

I'll be shocked if Tebow doesn't comes back. While I have no doubt that he has a strong drive to go unbeaten and do all sorts of other great things, those are all moot. Nobody comes out early to be a non-first round pick and he likely won't be a first-rounder. The former Texans GM (the guy who picked Mario Williams over Reggie Bush and Vince Young, which looks smart today) that gives analysis on CBS just said a few minutes ago that, in his mind, Tebow is day-two draft pick. He'll be back.

In terms of the greatest of this generation, I might agree there. But, what is "this generation" in terms of a time line?

[BlueintheFace]

As a current resident of Austin and non-OU fan, even I must say...

YOU CANNOT DENY THE HEISMAN to the Quarterback of the highest scoring offense since 1904.

You just can't... consider the job of the quarterback- to run the offense. Consider the magnitude of the aforementioned accomplishment.

-If you want to go by throwing numbers, give it to Harrell.

-If you want to give it to the most skilled, NFL ready player, give it to Crabtree

- and if your argument is that the media gave it to him, I strongly disagree. Colt was the frontrunner for the media and voters going in to championship week at which point most commentators became obsessed with the idea of Tebow going back to back.

-If you ask me, being the most important offensive player on the best offense in 104 years is the best argument here.

[Ben63]

I was pulling for McCoy to win, but I cannot disagree with the choice of Bradford, or any of the candidates for that matter. I could not argue against any of them.

But one guy who has not been mentioned was Shonn Greene of Iowa. Not saying he was better than the 3 QB's, but he rushed for at least 100 yards in EVERY game and failed to score only once (Mich State). He carried his team in the upset of Penn State, who would be in the National Championship if they had beaten Iowa. Against Penn State Greene had 28 carries for 117 yards and two touchdowns. Thats 4.2 yards/carry against a GREAT defense. For the season he rushed for 1729 yards and 17 touchdowns and ZERO fumbles in 278 carries. Not saying he should have won it, but certainly should have gotten more recognition than he did.

[jimsumner]

I found the whole thing to be so over-the-top that it was almost a caricature. A casual observer who just wandered in would think these guys had found a cure for cancer or a way to circumvent the speed of light. "Which part of Sam Bradford's life do you find most extraordinary?"

The Nobel winners aren't subjected to that kind of purple prose.

And I guess the ESPN talking heads assume that none of the viewers recognize that a substantial number of Heisman winners disappear into obscurity. Any Eric Couch sitings recently? How'd that last Oklahoma Heisman winner work out in the NFL?

It's an award for skill-position players at top-15 schools who are on TV a lot. Nothing else.

[Stray Gator]

As a current resident of Austin and non-OU fan, even I must say...

YOU CANNOT DENY THE HEISMAN to the Quarterback of the highest scoring offense since 1904.

You just can't... consider the job of the quarterback- to run the offense. Consider the magnitude of the aforementioned accomplishment.

-If you want to go by throwing numbers, give it to Harrell.

-If you want to give it to the most skilled, NFL ready player, give it to Crabtree

- and if your argument is that the media gave it to him, I strongly disagree. Colt was the frontrunner for the media and voters going in to championship week at which point most commentators became obsessed with the idea of Tebow going back to back.

-If you ask me, being the most important offensive player on the best offense in 104 years is the best argument here.

The Heisman Trophy is supposed to be awarded to the "Most Outstanding College Football Player in the United States" each year. Not the quarterback of the highest scoring offense (which, of course, can depend on the relative strength of the defenses he faces and the willingness of the coach to leave the first team on the field after the outcome of the game has already been decided), or the player who has the most NFL potential (which has nothing to do with being the outstanding college football player in that year). I don't deny that Bradford was deserving; but no more so, IMO, than McCoy or Tebow.

I would point out that, in the Big XII Championship Game, Bradford was going against a defense that is ranked 99th of 119 FBS teams in the country; yet with under 5 minutes left in the 4th Quarter, and Oklahoma nursing a 34-point lead, Bradford was still in the game throwing (and completing) passes. In the SECCG, Tebow was going against the defense ranked 3rd nationally; although his team entered the 4th Quarter trailing on the scoreboard and being physically dominated on the field, Tebow rallied--some say willed--his team to victory with two strong TD drives. I'm not suggesting those two games should be the decisive comparison--especially since McCoy didn't have the opportunity to play in a conference championship game--but I do find it mystifying that, after the SECCG, 170 voters could in good conscience leave Tim Tebow entirely off their ballot of top 3 college football players.

Like many Gator fans, I'm eager to see how Bradford and OU fare against UF's defense, and how Tebow, Harvin & Co. manage against OU's defense.

[Wander]

The Heisman isn't really an individual award. It's an individual/team combo award, with the added caveat that the winner must be an offensive skill player. Usually when a quarterback wins it, it says just as much (sometimes more) about the offensive linemen than it does about the QB.

I would have voted: Myron Rolle, Colt McCoy, Michael Crabtree

[BlueintheFace]

The Heisman Trophy is supposed to be awarded to the "Most Outstanding College Football Player in the United States" each year. Not the quarterback of the highest scoring offense

You are certainly confused on a number of fronts.

First, I didn't say that should be the sole criteria... what a silly idea. I simply said that the fact that he is the leader of the most prolific offense in a century on arguably the best team in the nation (TBD) seems to be the strongest point for any of the candidates.

Second, don't you think your second sentence here might be a strong indicator of the first... think about it.

However, the argument is really about what "most outstanding" means.

It could mean:

Most Valuable
Most Talented
Best Numbers
Most Impressive individual performance over a season

I believe the first three are subsumed in the fourth and history of the award would indicate that the fourth option here is how the winner is chosen. If you ask me, leading the most prolific offense in a century is far and away the most impressive...

[Gunnar Kaufman]

I absolutely agree. In my opinion, Tim Tebow is to college football as to what Shane Battier was to college basketball.

With all due respect to Tebow, I think this is unfair to Battier.

[A-Tex Devil]

Here's the deal.

If Blake Gideon cathes the INT against Tech, if Baylor holds on against Texas Tech, or if neither of the combo of Nebraska's 57 yard field goal against Colorado and KU's last second pass to beat Mizzou happen, UT is in the BIG XII championship, and assuming (reasonably) that they win, Colt (or perhaps Tebow) wins the Heisman and OU isn't the most prolific offense of all time.

None of those events have anything to do with Tim Tebow, Sam Bradford, or Colt McCoy, but each was crucial to him winning it.

But I concede, Sam Bradford was a worthy winner. Just not the worthiest ;)

[BlueintheFace]

Here's the deal.

If Blake Gideon cathes the INT against Tech, if Baylor holds on against Texas Tech, or if neither of the combo of Nebraska's 57 yard field goal against Colorado and KU's last second pass to beat Mizzou happen, UT is in the BIG XII championship, and assuming (reasonably) that they win, Colt (or perhaps Tebow) wins the Heisman and OU isn't the most prolific offense of all time.

None of those events have anything to do with Tim Tebow, Sam Bradford, or Colt McCoy, but each was crucial to him winning it.

But I concede, Sam Bradford was a worthy winner. Just not the worthiest ;)

I agree with what a poster above said, the Heisman is usually a team award to some extent... which fits in with my analysis. The better the team, the more impressive the candidate appears.

"Ifs" don't win championships or awards Tex-Devil... and those ifs can turn around on you. IF a few plays or penalties (cough, cough) would have gone a bit differently in the Red River Shootout... Bradford would have run away with the award by a mile, right?

[A-Tex Devil]

I agree with what a poster above said, the Heisman is usually a team award to some extent... which fits in with my analysis. The better the team, the more impressive the candidate appears.

"Ifs" don't win championships or awards Tex-Devil... and those ifs can turn around on you. IF a few plays or penalties (cough, cough) would have gone a bit differently in the Red River Shootout... Bradford would have run away with the award by a mile, right?

All I am saying is that these occurrences that had nothing to do with the players (and 3 had nothing to do with the teams) played a huge role in how people voted. I'll throw UF's missed extra point against Ole Miss as another example. That kicker makes it and Tebow wins the Heisman. Where is Tebow's involvement there?

My point was not "ifs" and "buts", just that these voters are pre-programmed to pick the "best" player, usually the QB by default, on the "best" team the last 10 years (and I'd argue Bradford is the 4th best skill player on his offense). It's quite uncanny, other than Tebow who had such a uniquely excellent year last year. If Bradford did all he needed to do to win it after the Big XII championship, then he did all he needed to do to win it before -- and all I'm suggesting is that if Texas had been in that game, Colt or Tebow would have won because of how people vote.

Maybe that's what the award has (d)evolved into, but why not have the finalists be the QBs on the BCS championship teams and end this farce. Bradford is worthy. But that's not why he won. He won because the BCS picked his team and he got the extra prime time game to be gushed on. I'm somewhat confident in that.

BTW - Which penalties in RRS? Phil Loadholt tackling Orakpo on every single pass rush where Orakpo didn't beat him around the edge? ;) That ref crew was heinous all year, often in favor of Texas, no doubt, and the Big XII may suffer for it in bowl games when their O-linemen aren't allowed to hold anymore.

[AtlBluRew]

While I don't have any issue with any of the three finalists, I'm going to echo StrayGator. Tebow's an amazing college player, and a great representative of his team, his university, and college football on and off the field. I love watching him play and hope he returns to Florida next year ... and he's the only reason I'd ever root for the Gators.

[brevity]

I believe any of the three candidates--and several others who were not invited to the ceremony--would have been deserving.

I'm glad someone else mentioned it in this thread. It is nothing short of embarrassing that only 3 players were nominated. I watched enough ESPN over the past week to hear the complaints about Graham Harrell's exclusion, but I would have been okay with it if two other people (say, Shonn Greene and Michael Crabtree) were in the mix. But to limit the shortlist to 3 in a year like this is inexplicable.

In my ESPN viewing, I also learned that only 3 finalists were selected because, in the nomination process, the 4th place vote-getter was a very distant 4th. So what? 5 films get nominated for a Best Picture Oscar, and it's almost never a 5-film race. Only 1 or 2 movies have any real chance of winning. For the rest, the nomination is the reward.

I realize that the Downtown Athletic Club is under no obligation to have a certain number of nominees. Could be 5, could be 4, could be 6. But in a year of such impressive offensive* production, particularly among the stars of top 10 teams, I can't fathom why the DAC wouldn't fly in a couple of more luminaries for the ceremony.

* I could also complain about the DAC's annual lack of respect for defense players -- where's Rey Maualuga, some may ask -- but I'll save that rant for another day.

[miramar]

Considering that Tebow won the Maxwell award, Bradford the Heisman, and McCoy the Walter Camp, it's not too surprising that there would be some controversy this year.

I don't know who's right, but if you see a Heisman in person, you know they have by far the best trophy. They give the school a second statue for the trophy case, so there are plenty of them around.

[BlueintheFace]

I'd argue Bradford is the 4th best skill player on his offense

I think (and hope) you are being sarcastic here, because up until this point your arguments have seemed relatively well reasoned.... but I'm not so sure

[SilkyJ]

Count another one in Tebow's camp. my main reason has to do with SOS. Tebow put up big numbers in big games and played way better defenses. I am fine with people going by stats, I often do, but there was a big disparity in the strength of defenses they faced, and I dont think that was factored in enough.

[A-Tex Devil]

I think (and hope) you are being sarcastic here, because up until this point your arguments have seemed relatively well reasoned.... but I'm not so sure

I think you could argue that Gresham, Murray, and Iglesias (stretching on that one) are all better players at their position than Bradford - Murray especially at the end of the year. That's how sick that offense was this year. (Not to mention Chris Brown, Manny Johnson and Broyles -- the last of whom, in the end, may be better than all of them.) You simply can't make that argument with Texas. OU is the most prolific offense ever, points wise, not just (and not even mostly) because of Bradford, but because they are 2 deep at every skill position with players that could start on 90% of Div 1 teams and have (according to experts ;) ) one of the best o-lines in the country. There is still something very Jason White-y about Sam Bradford to me, and I'll just leave it at that for now.

Florida -- eh, you could make a real case for Harvin (and I know Florida fans, although very few, who feel Harvin is more important to the offense than Tebow).

[Stray Gator]

You are certainly confused on a number of fronts.

First, I didn't say that should be the sole criteria... what a silly idea. I simply said that the fact that he is the leader of the most prolific offense in a century on arguably the best team in the nation (TBD) seems to be the strongest point for any of the candidates. ...

Maybe I am confused, because here's what you said in the message posted by you at 12:36 p.m.:

"YOU CANNOT DENY THE HEISMAN to the Quarterback of the highest scoring offense since 1904.

You just can't... consider the job of the quarterback- to run the offense. Consider the magnitude of the aforementioned accomplishment."

Evidently, a substantial majority of the Heisman voters disagree with you and would have denied the award to Bradford, because he was voted #1 on only 300 of the 902 recorded Heisman ballots. Tebow was voted #1 on 309 ballots, and McCoy was at the top on 266. (27 ballots named other players as #1.)

I like and respect Bob Stoops and Sam Bradford, but let's be realistic: The reason Oklahoma had the "highest scoring offense since 1904" is because Stoops knew, after the loss to Texas, that he needed to run up impressive scoring margins to win BCS "style points" with the human voters. That's not intended as a criticism of Stoops, but merely a recognition that he played the games the way the current BCS system encourages. And judging from the thin margin by which OU edged out Texas for the spot in the Big XII Championship Game--which was virtually a free pass to the BCSCG--his approach paid off. If Oklahoma had not been vying with Texas and Texas Tech for the votes in the polls that would ultimately decide which of the three one-loss teams in the Big XII South would be deemed the "winner," do you think Stoops would have kept his foot on the gas pedal long enough to keep scoring 60+ points through those last 5 games, when only one of those opponents managed to close to within 3 touchdowns in the second half?

[Gunnar Kaufman]

The reason Oklahoma had the "highest scoring offense since 1904" is because Stoops knew, after the loss to Texas, that he needed to run up impressive scoring margins to win BCS "style points" with the human voters. That's not intended as a criticism of Stoops, but merely a recognition that he played the games the way the current BCS system encourages. And judging from the thin margin by which OU edged out Texas for the spot in the Big XII Championship Game--which was virtually a free pass to the BCSCG--his approach paid off. If Oklahoma had not been vying with Texas and Texas Tech for the votes in the polls that would ultimately decide which of the three one-loss teams in the Big XII South would be deemed the "winner," do you think Stoops would have kept his foot on the gas pedal long enough to keep scoring 60+ points through those last 5 games, when only one of those opponents managed to close to within 3 touchdowns in the second half?

To be fair, Urban Meyer's been doing the same thing since the Gators lost to Mississippi at home.

You beat LSU 51-21, outscoring the Tigers 17-7 in the final quarter.

You beat Kentucky 63-5, outscoring the Wildcats 7-2 in the 4th.

You beat Georgia 49-10, with Tebow still throwing TD passes in the 4th quarter when the game was well out of reach.

You beat Vanderbilt 42-7, and actually put the brakes on in the second half (Tebow had already secured his 5 touchdowns).

You beat South Carolina 56-6, with Tebow once again throwing TD passes into the 4th quarter. The Gators outscored SC in the 4th 14-0.

You then beat up The Citadel 70-19.

And lastly, you walloped Florida State 45-15 before taking on Alabama in the SEC title game.

[rockymtn devil]

Count another one in Tebow's camp. my main reason has to do with SOS. Tebow put up big numbers in big games and played way better defenses. I am fine with people going by stats, I often do, but there was a big disparity in the strength of defenses they faced, and I dont think that was factored in enough.

This is fair (anything's fair in a subjective discussion of this nature) but there is also a huge disparity in the numbers that one could look to. Tebow's numbers aren't up there with either McCoy or Bradford's. The primary reason I would've left Tebow off my ballot is that he could not pick up a single yard against a mediocre team in his home stadium on fourth down and that ended up being the only blemish on his team's record. And, the news conference after that game was too over the top for me. He said about himself all of the things the media says about Tyler Hansbrough.

[Stray Gator]

To be fair, Urban Meyer's been doing the same thing since the Gators lost to Mississippi at home.

You beat LSU 51-21, outscoring the Tigers 17-7 in the final quarter.

You beat Kentucky 63-5, outscoring the Wildcats 7-2 in the 4th.

You beat Georgia 49-10, with Tebow still throwing TD passes in the 4th quarter when the game was well out of reach.

You beat Vanderbilt 42-7, and actually put the brakes on in the second half (Tebow had already secured his 5 touchdowns).

You beat South Carolina 56-6, with Tebow once again throwing TD passes into the 4th quarter. The Gators outscored SC in the 4th 14-0.

You then beat up The Citadel 70-19.

And lastly, you walloped Florida State 45-15 before taking on Alabama in the SEC title game.

Well, if you really want "to be fair," let's look at your statements and examine the facts as reflected in the play-by-play recap of each of those games:

"You beat LSU 51-21, outscoring the Tigers 17-7 in the final quarter."

[Note that about midway through the 3rd Quarter, the score was Florida 20-LSU 14.]

"You beat Kentucky 63-5, outscoring the Wildcats 7-2 in the 4th."

[And Tebow came out before the end of the 3rd Quarter. Florida's only 4th Quarter TD was scored by reserves on the opening drive of the 4th quarter.]

"You beat Georgia 49-10, with Tebow still throwing TD passes in the 4th quarter when the game was well out of reach."

[No Gator will ever make apologies for beating Georgia as badly as possible.
But for the record, the halftime score was 14-3, and Tebow threw one TD pass early in the 4th Quarter before coming out with 11:30 left in the game.]

"You beat Vanderbilt 42-7, and actually put the brakes on in the second half (Tebow had already secured his 5 touchdowns)."

[Tebow played only the first offensive series in the 3rd Quarter, in which he completed one pass, before giving way to Brantley. Vandy outscored UF 14-7 in the second half.]

"You beat South Carolina 56-6, with Tebow once again throwing TD passes into the 4th quarter. The Gators outscored SC in the 4th 14-0."

[Tebow came out after Florida scored 6 seconds into the 4th Quarter on a 5-yard pass. So he stayed in for one play in the 4th Quarter to complete a drive. Your statement that Tebow was "throwing TD passes into the 4th quarter" hardly qualifies as a "fair" characterization. Furthermore, the other 4th Quarter TD was scored by subs following an interception that left the ball in USC territory to start the drive.]

"You then beat up The Citadel 70-19."

[You neglect to mention that Tebow played barely more than the 1st Quarter of this game. His last pass came less than 2 minutes into the 2nd Quarter. The second-half score was 21-13.]

"And lastly, you walloped Florida State 45-15 before taking on Alabama in the SEC title game."

[Again, no apologies for beating FSU soundly--it's a rivalry game. But note that Florida attempted a total of 2 passes early in the 4th quarter--neither of which was complete--then did not throw another pass for the last 13+ minutes of the game. After scoring 10 points early in the 3rd Quarter, UF's only score came with a short field following an interception early in the 4th Quarter, and Brantley replaced Tebow for most of the 4th Quarter.]

I don't deny that Meyer could and probably should have pulled the starters a little earlier in a few of those games and kept the score closer. But show me just one Florida game where Meyer left Tebow in for the entire game despite having a huge lead, like Stoops left Bradford in against Missouri in the Big XII CG to continue passing and scoring with under 5 minutes left in the game and a 34-point lead, or even like Stoops left Bradford in to start a drive and throw a TD pass in the 4th quarter against Texas Tech when Oklahoma was already leading by 44 points going into the 4th Quarter. Do you still think it's a "fair" comparison?

[Gunnar Kaufman]

Do you still think it's a "fair" comparison?

Both coaches have done what they felt they needed to do to be strong in the polls. And that has included demolishing foes. Florida's done it more efficiently; both schools have done it effectively. Eviscerating The Citadel and South Carolina were both wholly unnecessary, but wholly acceptable, no matter how many snaps Tebow took.

And that was the point: to demonstrate that Florida's strategy was no different than Oklahoma's. Win. Impressively.

They've both done that. Bradford and Tebow have benefited accordingly.

[Stray Gator]

This is fair (anything's fair in a subjective discussion of this nature) but there is also a huge disparity in the numbers that one could look to. Tebow's numbers aren't up there with either McCoy or Bradford's. The primary reason I would've left Tebow off my ballot is that he could not pick up a single yard against a mediocre team in his home stadium on fourth down and that ended up being the only blemish on his team's record. And, the news conference after that game was too over the top for me. He said about himself all of the things the media says about Tyler Hansbrough.

You regard Ole Miss is "a mediocre team"? Are you aware that Ole Miss is ranked 6th nationally in rushing defense, finished the season with 5 straight wins and an 8-4 record, is ranked 20th in the AP poll and 25th in the BCS standings, and is playing Texas Tech in the Cotton Bowl?

As for Tebow's postgame speech, he apologized for having failed--taking full responsibility on himself for the team's loss (remember the blocked extra point?)--and made a commitment to work harder than anyone else going forward. If a Duke basketball player had done the same thing, and then gone out and delivered the way Tebow has, he would be deified here. It's ironic for me to see my fellow Duke fans diving into the "Gator/Tebow Hatred Tsunami" the way we decry opposing fans jumping into the "Duke Hatred Tsunami."

[A-Tex Devil]

You regard Ole Miss is "a mediocre team"? Are you aware that Ole Miss is ranked 6th nationally in rushing defense, finished the season with 5 straight wins and an 8-4 record, is ranked 20th in the AP poll and 25th in the BCS standings, and is playing Texas Tech in the Cotton Bowl?

As for Tebow's postgame speech, he apologized for having failed--taking full responsibility on himself for the team's loss (remember the blocked extra point?)--and made a commitment to work harder than anyone else going forward. If a Duke basketball player had done the same thing, and then gone out and delivered the way Tebow has, he would be deified here. It's ironic for me to see my fellow Duke fans diving into the "Gator/Tebow Hatred Tsunami" the way we decry opposing fans jumping into the "Duke Hatred Tsunami."

I for one am rooting for the Gators. Hard. I just hope they can put up the points they need to because I am pretty sure OU is going to put up 35. That being said -- if Spikes and those fast defensive ends can get to Bradford early and create turnovers, who knows what will happen. That OU offense in 2004 was pretty good too, but a great USC team, combined with OU panic and the tidal wave of momentum that followed, stuffed the Sooners cold.

[rockymtn devil]

You regard Ole Miss is "a mediocre team"? Are you aware that Ole Miss is ranked 6th nationally in rushing defense, finished the season with 5 straight wins and an 8-4 record, is ranked 20th in the AP poll and 25th in the BCS standings, and is playing Texas Tech in the Cotton Bowl?

As for Tebow's postgame speech, he apologized for having failed--taking full responsibility on himself for the team's loss (remember the blocked extra point?)--and made a commitment to work harder than anyone else going forward. If a Duke basketball player had done the same thing, and then gone out and delivered the way Tebow has, he would be deified here. It's ironic for me to see my fellow Duke fans diving into the "Gator/Tebow Hatred Tsunami" the way we decry opposing fans jumping into the "Duke Hatred Tsunami."

I'm well aware and yes I do consider Ole Miss to be mediocre. It went 8-4 with a high quality win against Florida. The other seven wins were against mediocre to bad teams. This is a team that lost to mediocre Wake Forest and struggled to beat a bad Arkansas team.

My distaste for the Tebow speech has nothing to do with some sort of "Gator/Tebow Hatred Tsunami" (and I'm not one to get worked up over the so-called "Duke Hatred Tsunami"). I saw the speech as very self-serving and over the top. It came off--to me--like the T.O. tear-filled "my quarterback" speech after the Cowboys lost to the Giants last year. You saw it differently. That's just fine. I'm sure Tebow is a wonderful young man and he is a great player. But let's not deify him yet. You said yesterday that he's the best player of his generation. He may well be, but it's a little premature to go down that road, IMO. Depending on when "this generation" began, I can think of several players that, as of today, I would put ahead of him.

My point about the Ole Miss game was that Tebow had the ball in his hands with an opportunity to put the Gators in a position to win and he couldn't gain a yard. In a year with a fantastic set of Heisman candidates, that play was enough to put him below the others.

[jv001]

This award has been losing it's appeal for a few years not and this year to only invite 3 of the contenders for the award was totally classless. Some said that it was because of the economy. Well if that was the case then just invite the winner. College football is ok but it's far from being the sport that college basketball is. Get with it and crown a national champion the way other sports do. The BCS is another joke. Go Duke!

[Stray Gator]

I'm well aware and yes I do consider Ole Miss to be mediocre. It went 8-4 with a high quality win against Florida. The other seven wins were against mediocre to bad teams. This is a team that lost to mediocre Wake Forest and struggled to beat a bad Arkansas team.

My distaste for the Tebow speech has nothing to do with some sort of "Gator/Tebow Hatred Tsunami" (and I'm not one to get worked up over the so-called "Duke Hatred Tsunami"). I saw the speech as very self-serving and over the top. It came off--to me--like the T.O. tear-filled "my quarterback" speech after the Cowboys lost to the Giants last year. You saw it differently. That's just fine. I'm sure Tebow is a wonderful young man and he is a great player. But let's not deify him yet. You said yesterday that he's the best player of his generation. He may well be, but it's a little premature to go down that road, IMO. Depending on when "this generation" began, I can think of several players that, as of today, I would put ahead of him.

My point about the Ole Miss game was that Tebow had the ball in his hands with an opportunity to put the Gators in a position to win and he couldn't gain a yard. In a year with a fantastic set of Heisman candidates, that play was enough to put him below the others.

By your logic, then, I suppose Jason Williams should have been denied the Wooden Award in 2002 because he missed those free throws at the end of the Indiana game?

And just to set the record straight, I said: "I am convinced--and many experienced observers evidently agree--that Tim Tebow might very well be the greatest college football player of this generation."

Finally, I think the fact that Ole Miss beat UF in the Swamp, nearly beat Alabama in Tuscaloosa, and trounced a pretty good LSU team in Baton Rouge, is sufficient to overshadow that early season 2-point loss at Wake (on a field goal with 3 seconds left) to elevate the Rebels above the "mediocre" level. You are certainly entitled to disagree, but their end-of-season rankings and Cotton Bowl berth suggest that a lot of well-informed observers of college football do not share your opinion.

[Wander]

trounced a pretty good LSU team in Baton Rouge

Ole Miss is not mediocre, but LSU certainly is.

[BlueintheFace]

"I am convinced--and many experienced observers evidently agree--that Tim Tebow might very well be the greatest college football player of this generation."

I don't think very many experienced observers, non-experienced observers, football historians, reputable sports writers, or small children of mild intelligence (all excluding Gator fans of course) would consider agreeing with such a statement until they see at least one championship trophy in his hands.

[blazindw]

Count another one in Tebow's camp. my main reason has to do with SOS. Tebow put up big numbers in big games and played way better defenses. I am fine with people going by stats, I often do, but there was a big disparity in the strength of defenses they faced, and I dont think that was factored in enough.

Texas played 4 Top 10 teams in 4 straight weeks, remaining undefeated throughout all of them until the final second of the last game. That includes their neutral-field victory against OU. They didn't have any cupcakes on their schedule. The worst teams they played were Baylor and A&M (both finished 4-8)...the rest of the teams either made it to a bowl or finished just short at 5-7 (Colorado, Arkansas, UTEP). Meanwhile, Florida played national powerhouse The Citadel, OU played annual bowl contenders Washington and Chattanooga (they also had a bye week before playing Texas Tech), and Texas Tech (who also had a bye before playing OU) really set the bar high with games against Eastern Washington, SMU and UMass.

[Stray Gator]

I don't think very many experienced observers, non-experienced observers, football historians, reputable sports writers, or small children of mild intelligence (all excluding Gator fans of course) would consider agreeing with such a statement until they see at least one championship trophy in his hands.

Well, he wasn't the starter, but I had the pleasure of watching Tim Tebow account for two touchdowns in the BCS Championship Game two years ago, when the Gators defeated Ohio State 41-14 to win a national championship trophy. So far, he's been a part of 2 SEC Championship teams and 1 BCS National Championship team. Now he'll have an opportunity to compete for another BCS National Championship. And FWIW, I've heard several sports commentators express the view that Tebow might be the best college football player they've seen, at least since Herschel roamed and rumbled between the hedges more than a quarter-century ago.

As I said in my earlier post, I readily concede that my opinion is biased and that I'm peering through orange-and-blue colored glasses. I didn't mean to irritate anyone when I added my comments about the Heisman--and I still acknowledge that Bradford as well as any one of 4 or 5 other players would have been deserving recipients this season. But I can see that not everyone here shares my appreciation for Tim Tebow, and in fact some seem downright eager to denigrate his accomplishments and discredit his character. So rather than continue rubbing folks the wrong way, I'll bow out before this exchange of views evolves into some kind of dispute. For all who have teams they support playing in bowls, enjoy the games and--except to Sooner fans--good luck! :)

[bdh21]

I absolutely agree. In my opinion, Tim Tebow is to college football as to what Shane Battier was to college basketball.

A dominant two-way player?

[blueprofessor]

Stray makes a ton of good points and few know more facts about Tebow's play than he.
All 3 finalists were deserving.
What suggests strategic voting (and which may have cost Tebow the Heisman) is the fact that he was left off of 154 out of 904 ballots.
It is the first time since 1956 that the top getter of 1st place votes finished as low as 3rd.Ironically that 3rd place finisher was a Sooner running back who became a great pro wide receiver.
Tebow finished 151 votes behind Bradford.He was left off of 154 ballots.
The votes by region included 2 interesting tallies : South,Tebow 382---Bradford 250; and Southwest, Bradford 360,McCoy 313, and Tebow 184.

What causes me a little consternation is that I cannot agree with leaving Tebow off of 154 ballots.

Last, I recall that Mickey Andrews,as good as there has been at coaching defense for the last 25 years, said that Danny Wuerffel was the greatest player and competitor FSU had ever played. Wuerfel was selected as the all-time SEC first team q-back.After the Florida game this year, Coach Bowden trumped Andrews and said Tebow was the greatest q-back he had ever seen,IIRC.
I know my friend S-gator cringes at the mention of FSU, but that is pretty meaningful to this old Floridian!

Best regards--Blue Professor:)

[blazindw]

To put this in terms of BCS arguments...how can Bradford be in a position for the Heisman when he didn't even win Player of the Year in his own conference? That award went to McCoy (although, for some reason, McCoy only made 2nd Team All-Big 12, finishing one point behind Bradford for 1st Team).

[77devil]

Texas played 4 Top 10 teams in 4 straight weeks, remaining undefeated throughout all of them until the final second of the last game. That includes their neutral-field victory against OU. They didn't have any cupcakes on their schedule. The worst teams they played were Baylor and A&M (both finished 4-8)...the rest of the teams either made it to a bowl or finished just short at 5-7 (Colorado, Arkansas, UTEP). Meanwhile, Florida played national powerhouse The Citadel, OU played annual bowl contenders Washington and Chattanooga (they also had a bye week before playing Texas Tech), and Texas Tech (who also had a bye before playing OU) really set the bar high with games against Eastern Washington, SMU and UMass.

I guess this means you disagree with the Bradford selection too.

[ugadevil]

To put this in terms of BCS arguments...how can Bradford be in a position for the Heisman when he didn't even win Player of the Year in his own conference? That award went to McCoy (although, for some reason, McCoy only made 2nd Team All-Big 12, finishing one point behind Bradford for 1st Team).

Are there different people voting for each of these various awards? I would think that would be how everything gets mixed up.

[Channing]

To put this in terms of BCS arguments...how can Bradford be in a position for the Heisman when he didn't even win Player of the Year in his own conference? That award went to McCoy (although, for some reason, McCoy only made 2nd Team All-Big 12, finishing one point behind Bradford for 1st Team).

didnt JWil win the NPOY while losing ACC POY to Juan Dixon?

[rockymtn devil]

As I said in my earlier post, I readily concede that my opinion is biased and that I'm peering through orange-and-blue colored glasses. I didn't mean to irritate anyone when I added my comments about the Heisman--and I still acknowledge that Bradford as well as any one of 4 or 5 other players would have been deserving recipients this season. But I can see that not everyone here shares my appreciation for Tim Tebow, and in fact some seem downright eager to denigrate his accomplishments and discredit his character. So rather than continue rubbing folks the wrong way, I'll bow out before this exchange of views evolves into some kind of dispute. For all who have teams they support playing in bowls, enjoy the games and--except to Sooner fans--good luck! :)

Please. No one is denigrating his accomplishments or discrediting his character. As myself and others--including you--have noted, there were several deserving candidates this year. As such, you had to look hard to find reasons to vote against a given player. Tebow didn't have the stats to match McCoy (my selection) or Bradford. Further, in his team's loss, he didn't deliver late in the game. It may be a minor moment in the grand scheme of things, but in this race, it was enough to alter my opinion. In contrast, in his team's loss, McCoy led a furious comeback and, with the ball in his hands, led what appeared to be the winning drive. It's not a knock on Tebow. It's a testament to how close the candidates were and an opinion of why, to me, others were ahead of him.

In terms of character attacks, saying that his speech came off as self-serving wasn't meant as an attack. As I stated before, all indications are that he is a wonderful young man. That doesn't mean that particular speech wasn't over the top or that it wasn't self-serving or that it shouldn't have rubbed me the wrong way (contrast it to Terrell Pryor privately telling his coach to switch QBs if the offense continued to stall with him under center; that was made public by Tressell, not Pryor). I realize that Tim Tebow is a special player to Gator fans (as he should be) but crying wolf at any potentially negative statement about him doesn't help the perception that he's been prematurely deified.

[blazindw]

I guess this means you disagree with the Bradford selection too.

Just a little bit ;)


Are there different people voting for each of these various awards? I would think that would be how everything gets mixed up.

Yes, different people vote for the Heisman and the individual conference player of the year awards, but the same people that vote for 1st team all conference vote for the conference player of the year.


didnt JWil win the NPOY while losing ACC POY to Juan Dixon?

You are correct, but again, there were different people voting on each. My argument wasn't a real argument against Bradford, but merely to expose how hypocritical it is when talking about BCS title games that not the two best teams go, but only if they win their conference when the same people have no problems voting for who they think the best player in college football is even if that same person wasn't even determined to be the best player in his own conference.

[A-Tex Devil]

Stray makes a ton of good points and few know more facts about Tebow's play than he.
All 3 finalists were deserving.
What suggests strategic voting (and which may have cost Tebow the Heisman) is the fact that he was left off of 154 out of 904 ballots.
It is the first time since 1956 that the top getter of 1st place votes finished as low as 3rd.Ironically that 3rd place finisher was a Sooner running back who became a great pro wide receiver.
Tebow finished 151 votes behind Bradford.He was left off of 154 ballots.
The votes by region included 2 interesting tallies : South,Tebow 382---Bradford 250; and Southwest, Bradford 360,McCoy 313, and Tebow 184.

What causes me a little consternation is that I cannot agree with leaving Tebow off of 154 ballots.


Just as one can make a good case for Sam Bradford winning the Heisman(although I disagree) , I think a good case can be made for leaving Tebow off (although I would have had him at number 2).

If the voters only select 3 or even 5 (not sure which), a case could be made for any combo of Bradford, McCoy, Harrell, Crabtree, Maleaugu, Berry on Tennessee, Orakpo, Spikes, Shon Greene, or UConn's RB over Tebow.

I'm sure there was some regional bias in play in the midwest. Also many ballots were turned in before the SEC Championship game when CBS got to fawn all over Tebow one more time (not that he didn't deserve it). I think that game threw Tebow over the top on a bunch of ballots.