Is Duke shut out of the alltime acc team?

[arnie]

The local tv station in Raleigh is picking its alltime acc team by position this week. So far, Phil Ford, David Thompson, Michael Jordan and James Worthy. Is there a chance tomorrow they will pick someone other than Laettner?? Could it be Sam Perkins to make it 4 Heels or simply assign the post position to Hansbrough. Or not to make it obvious, do they go with Ralph Sampson??

Of course the selection of Jordan is just stupid - but they don't seem to understand the difference between greatest college players and nba players (except for the beloved straight arrow Ford).

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Uhhh? Why does who a local station in Raleigh ordains matter?

[arnie]

Uhhh? Why does who a local station in Raleigh ordains matter?

Only because I have to watch that crap!

[rthomas]

Only because I have to watch that crap!


Jordan was a great college player. Jaw dropping good. So was Thompson, And Worthy - although he missed about a third of his college career with broken ankle - however, he was pretty damn good in his jr year.

Laettner should be in the mix. He was the most clutch.

What about Len Bias? He may have been the best I've seen.

[gw67]

Four players are givens, IMO. Thompson and Sampson were three-time 1st team All ACC and were three-time ACC POY. Ford and Duncan were three-time 1st team All ACC and were ACC POY once each. Depending on how far you go back, you could choose from a couple of dozen players for the 5th position. My choice would be Laettner. He was a two-time 1st team All ACC, one-time 2nd team All ACC and one-time ACC POY. He was also the greatest clutch player in ACC history.

Ask one hundred fans and you probably get 100 different 1st teams. Jordan was an outstanding ACC player but I don't think he deserves to be on the first team.

gw67

[CameronBornAndBred]

Jordan was a great college player. Jaw dropping good. So was Thompson, And Worthy - although he missed about a third of his college career with broken ankle - however, he was pretty damn good in his jr year.

Laettner should be in the mix. He was the most clutch.

What about Len Bias? He may have been the best I've seen.
I would have put Bias above Jordan on their list. In fact, I hate it when Jordan makes these all time lists for his college career. He was an incredible pro, arguable as the best ever, but during his pro career is when he really developed. His 3rd and final year at Carolina was outstanding (NPOY), but all 3 combined I don't think merit placement as a top 5 player in the ACC. Top ten, yes.
I'm guessing Laettner is off the list. Sampson is a given to make it. I think Worthy's spot should have gone to Laettner, obviously the other one is rightfully Thompson's.

[watzone]

We are talking about a poll which "hopes" Triangle fans remain objective. Yeah, right. They have JD listed as a PG. Uh, he didn't play the point at Duke. There are many more oddities and the team IMO means absolutely nothing past them being able to talk of it on the radio station owned by the company. Duke shut out? Of course they are - this is Heel country. Seriously, this is one of WRAL's better moments. Tainted, tainted, tainted. Like anyone out of the Triangle has a shot or a vote.

[sagegrouse]

ESPN came up with the 25 greatest college players of all time last March. There were only five ACC players listed:

8. David Thompson
12. Christian Laettner
13. Michael Jordan
18. Ralph Sampson
21. Tim Duncan

And if you need another guard on the team, looks like Duncan gets to come off the bench.

This also has one player from each of five schools, which seems to make it balanced. Not a junk team with 3-4 Tarheels -- yuck!

sagegrouse
'I wouldn't rate MJ that high, based on his college career, but he truly was phenomenal as a collegian'

[JasonEvans]

No way Worthy belongs on this list. A great player but not even a 2nd team all-timer for the ACC, IMO.

Thompson is a given as is Phil Ford. Not even a discussion there. Thompson may be the greatest college player of all time. Ford is likely the greatest PG not named Robertson.

A lot of folks might balk a bit at Sampson because he never won a national title, but his teams had amazing success and made a Final Four. They could have easily won an ACC title and a national one had they not run into NC State's magical season. I think Sampson is a given too.

Duncan gives me a tiny bit of pause. His teams really did not have the post-season success they should have -- not even as good as Sampson's teams. He was great, but I never felt like he was dominating games the way some of these other guys did. He is in the running, but I think I would put him behind Laettner because of Laettner's incredible post-season record and clutch performances. So, Laettner is the 4th guy on my team.

Fifth person on the list probably needs to be a guard. There are a lot of possibilities but I would go with Len Bias. Moreso than any of the other guys in the running, he had only mediocre teammates (if memory serves) so I don't blame him for his team's lack of NCAA tourney success. He was a one-man wrecking crew in 1984, that's for sure. He was 2-time ACC Player of the year and, if it had not been for cocaine, I am certain he would be in the NBA Hall of Fame right now. Yes, I am serious. The dude would have won multiple titles with the Celtics.

Well, that's my list. All others are just plain wrong ;)

--Jason "worth noting, I never saw some of the older greats like Len Chappel, Dickie Hemmick, Dick Groat, and others that are not included here. You could make a very good case for many of them" Evans

[JasonEvans]

ESPN came up with the 25 greatest college players of all time last March. There were only five ACC players listed:

8. David Thompson
12. Christian Laettner
13. Michael Jordan
18. Ralph Sampson
21. Tim Duncan

And if you need another guard on the team, looks like Duncan gets to come off the bench.

This also has one player from each of five schools, which seems to make it balanced. Not a junk team with 3-4 Tarheels -- yuck!

sagegrouse
'I wouldn't rate MJ that high, based on his college career, but he truly was phenomenal as a collegian'

Can anyone make a rational argument for me that Michael Jordan was a better collegian than Ralph Sampson!?!? Are you kidding me?!?! Huge NBA career bias going on there!

I would argue that Grant Hill was a better collegiate player than Michael Jordan (though if Jordan had stayed to his senior season then I'd drop the argument).

-Jason "MJ was great in college, but doesn't even really belong in this conversation" Evans

[godukecom]

The local tv station in Raleigh is picking its alltime acc team by position this week. So far, Phil Ford, David Thompson, Michael Jordan and James Worthy. Is there a chance tomorrow they will pick someone other than Laettner?? Could it be Sam Perkins to make it 4 Heels or simply assign the post position to Hansbrough. Or not to make it obvious, do they go with Ralph Sampson??

Of course the selection of Jordan is just stupid - but they don't seem to understand the difference between greatest college players and nba players (except for the beloved straight arrow Ford).

I believe I have identified your problem...

[DBFAN]

How is it that Hurley has not come up in anyone's conversation. Two national titles, and All time NCAA assist leader, gets no mention.

[CameronBlue]

That Jordan isn't even in the top five Carolina players. Who would you delete from this list?

Charlie Scott
Phil Ford
Len Rosenbluth
Larry Miller
Bob McAdoo

okay maybe McAdoo because he played one year (IIRC) but he absolutely dominated that year. So take him off and put on Walter Davis who hit the tying basket in the 8 points in 17 seconds run. (Tate Armstrong was buggered twice during that run. Oh well... ACC refs)

[RainingThrees]

I agree with DBFAN someone please name a better ACC pg than Bobby Hurley to ease my disgust.

[madscavenger]

We are talking about a poll which "hopes" Triangle fans remain objective. Yeah, right. They have JD listed as a PG. Uh, he didn't play the point at Duke.

hi watzone

My memory is that JD played the point as a freshman, then handed it off to Amaker for the remainder of his career. i loved that team, the epidomy of team play.

[Bob Green]

Maryland's John Lucas deserves consideration. I'm not sure he would make the final cut but he definitely should be considered.

[heyman25]

Len Bias or Tim Duncan or Christian Laettner. The 1st 4 were all great while in the ACC. David Thompson was the greatest college basketball player ever in the ACC. Len Bias didn't outplay Bill Walton and UCLA. He never won any titles. David Thompson was in the stratosphere. Mindblowingly talented and from little Shelby, NC.What is sad is Gerald Henderson is as athletic as he was, but is performing at about 10 to 20% of what Thompson did every game.

[jv001]

ESPN came up with the 25 greatest college players of all time last March. There were only five ACC players listed:

8. David Thompson
12. Christian Laettner
13. Michael Jordan
18. Ralph Sampson
21. Tim Duncan

And if you need another guard on the team, looks like Duncan gets to come off the bench.


How about this team.
G. Hurley
G. Thompson (he played forward mostly)
C. Duncan
F. Laettner
F. Worthy

Jordan does not need to be even on a 2nd team all ACC team. Blame dean smith for that.

[davekay1971]

I don't think I'm being too anti-carolina in this, but I have trouble putting Worthy on the all time all ACC team. That's not a knock on Worthy - he was a great power forward. But I'm not sure his total college career puts him above some of the following at the 4 spot:

Rodney Rogers
Shane Battier
Len Bias
Antawn Jamison
Tom Gugliotta (don't laugh - his junior year stats were better than Worthy's, and his senior year was off the charts)

Granted Battier and Bias had a very different game than Worthy, so comparison is always difficult...

As for Jordan, he was jaw-dropping good...but he was a role player on the championship team and failed to lead arguably one of the most talented teams in NCAA history (the 1984 'Holes) to the title. Whether you call him a 3 or 4, there are a glut of great college players in ACC history at those positions. Ignoring his one-of-a-kind NBA career and focusing only on college stats, I'm not sure Jordan is really in the argument for all time ACC team.

Jordan's career statline: 17.7 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 1.8 apg...what impresses me is his .540 field goal percentage...pretty amazing for a perimeter player.

But if you consider Jordan as a 2, compare him to our own J Will, another 3 year player with a title ring: 19.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 6.0 apg...or J Dawk: 19.2 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 4.2 apg.

If you consider him as a 3, just stop at David Thompson. He owns the 3 spot all-time ACC...there are no challengers (26.8 ppg, 8.1 rpg).

[JasonEvans]

I agree with DBFAN someone please name a better ACC pg than Bobby Hurley to ease my disgust.

Phil Ford.

Bobby Hurley made the All-ACC first team exactly one time. He was 2nd team once and 3rd team once. He was never ACC POY. He was never national POY. He was really only a first-team All-American once. There are probably some NC State fans who would make a compelling argument that Chris Corchiani was a better player than Bobby.

Look, Bobby was a wonderful player and was a part of some amazing teams, but he is not Phil Ford. Sorry.

-Jason "some Duke fans might even argue that JWill was a better PG than Bobby" Evans

[shadowfax336]

I'm admittedly not old enough to have seen him, but I'm not getting the hype about Worthy.
He was never a National POY, something the ACC has had plenty of, he was 1st team AA only once, and he never averaged even 16ppg for a season.

He was admittedly the key player on a national championship team, but thats a qualification that Laettner, Battier and others who were National POYs share. What places Worthy above the others?

[sagegrouse]

Phil Ford.

Bobby Hurley made the All-ACC first team exactly one time. He was 2nd team once and 3rd team once. He was never ACC POY. He was never national POY. He was really only a first-team All-American once. There are probably some NC State fans who would make a compelling argument that Chris Corchiani was a better player than Bobby.

Look, Bobby was a wonderful player and was a part of some amazing teams, but he is not Phil Ford. Sorry.

-Jason "some Duke fans might even argue that JWill was a better PG than Bobby" Evans

Thoughts on Mark Price?

sagegrouse

[CDu]

I'd say Duke should be shut out of the list. That's not saying that we will, just that we should. I'd put Sampson in ahead of Laettner. That said, I'd have gone with Sampson and Laettner over Worthy.

I think Thompson and Sampson should be givens. I'd put Laettner in as well. The guard spots are more interesting. I'd say Phil Ford and Jason Williams would be 1 and 2 in some order, and I can accept strong arguments for each. At shooting guard, I'd have gone with Johnny Dawkins ahead of Jordan. The only edge Jordan had in college was that his team won a title. But Jordan was a freshman on that team - that was Worthy's team and Jordan was a complementary player. I'd go with Dawkins.

So my team would be:
Sampson
Laettner
Thompson
Dawkins
Ford

[JasonEvans]

You know, everyone looks at stats -- which do a great job of showing offensive production. But, what about the other 50% of the game?

Does Battier or Duncan deserve extra consideration because of their uncanny defensive talent? Duncan and Battier were both 3-time national defensive player of the year. That is sorta stunning to think about.

Battier was about as good a help defender as has ever lived and, if he had been more of an offensive player earlier in his career, probably would deserve serious consideration for all-time ACC first-team.

Who would be the ACC's all-time defensive team?

PG - ?????? - I dunno though I think Amaker goes high on the list. He was better than Wojo (who also won a DPOY).
SG - ?????? - Johnny Rhodes or Juan Dixon (#1 and #2 in career steals)
SF - Billy King (best on-the-ball defender I have ever seen)
PF - Battier
C - Duncan

--Jason "if not for Duncan, Ralph Sampson would be firmly in the C spot-- stud shotblocker!" Evans

[Indoor66]

You know, everyone looks at stats -- which do a great job of showing offensive production. But, what about the other 50% of the game?

Does Battier or Duncan deserve extra consideration because of their uncanny defensive talent? Duncan and Battier were both 3-time national defensive player of the year. That is sorta stunning to think about.

Battier was about as good a help defender as has ever lived and, if he had been more of an offensive player earlier in his career, probably would deserve serious consideration for all-time ACC first-team.

Who would be the ACC's all-time defensive team?

PG - ?????? - I dunno though I think Amaker goes high on the list. He was better than Wojo (who also won a DPOY).
SG - ?????? - Johnny Rhodes or Juan Dixon (#1 and #2 in career steals)
SF - Billy King (best on-the-ball defender I have ever seen)
PF - Battier
C - Duncan

--Jason "if not for Duncan, Ralph Sampson would be firmly in the C spot-- stud shotblocker!" Evans

Obviously you would have to consider Michael Jordan for that defensive team. :eek::rolleyes:

[JasonEvans]

Thoughts on Mark Price?

Great player and in the conversation though I think he falls slightly behind Hurley on the all-time greats list. His stats are somewhat inflated by the fact that Tech was godawful when he arrived and he had to carry a huge load as a freshman. I know a lot of folks give "extra credit" to the Duke and Carolina players who have multiple ACC titles, FFours, and national titles on their resume -- well, perhaps we should give extra credit to Mark Price who, as much as anyone, turned the Ga Tech program around and made it into the national program that continues to be quite relevant still today. He is Tech's Johnny Dawkins and that is really saying something.

--Jason "this discussion shows how hard it is to come up with these lists" Evans

[dball]

Phil Ford.

Bobby Hurley made the All-ACC first team exactly one time. He was 2nd team once and 3rd team once. He was never ACC POY. He was never national POY. He was really only a first-team All-American once. There are probably some NC State fans who would make a compelling argument that Chris Corchiani was a better player than Bobby.

Look, Bobby was a wonderful player and was a part of some amazing teams, but he is not Phil Ford. Sorry.

-Jason "some Duke fans might even argue that JWill was a better PG than Bobby" Evans

Ford was a great player but Bobby compares favorably in my opinion. Always tough to compare different decades though. In terms of point guards who some might argue were better than Bobby (not me :))

Ga Tech
Kenny Anderson
Mark Price
Travis Best (his numbers are similar to Ford's)

Wake
Chris Paul
Randolph Childress

State
Corchiani
Monty Towe

USC
John Roche

[Daniel Damico]

I always find these list tough. Because ranking players is completely subjective. One can argue that Hurley is a better point guard then Jason Williams, but no one would call him a better player.

Stats don't tell the whole story. But what do you look at? Their productivity in college or the "potential that is there".

Five Best
Sampson
Thompson
Len Bias
Laettner
Duncan

Team
G - Dawkins
G - Ford
F - Thompson
F - Laettner
C - Duncan


Daniel

http://doublethepost.wordpress.com

[davekay1971]

Responding in a different vein: if I could put together any 5 ACC players (as they were in college) as a team:

C: Christian Laettner: ultimate gamer, matchup nightmare
PF: Len Bias: Absolute beast by his senior year
SF: David Thompson: 'nuff said
SG: Jay Williams: streaky? Yes. Unstoppable at times? Absolutely.
PG: Phil Ford (as much as I hate to sully my team with a 'Hole)

Coming off my bench:
Timmy Duncan
Rodney Rogers
Grant Hill
JJ Redick
Mark Price
Crawford Palmer

[Olympic Fan]

Just a few thoughts:

-- Chill out about this poll -- it's an open internet poll strongly advertised in a market dominated by UNC fans. OF COURSE, it's going to be dominated by Tar Heels. Take it for what it's worth. Heck, the way its going, they'll probably pick Tyler Hansbrough as the all-time center.

-- The Jordan issue always comes up when we talk about an all-time team. If you count future pro success, he makes it -- he's a greatest pro produced by the ACC. If you're just talking about college success ... well, let me make this point: Michael Jordan and Jason Williams had almost exactly the same collegiate career.

The two guys played three seasons each and turned pro brefore his senior season.

Statisically, the slightest edge to Williams -- for his career, Jordan (who played SF and WG) averaged 17.7 points, 5.0 rebounds, 1.8 assists and 2.0 turnovers; Williams (who played PG and WG) averaged 19.3 ppoints, 3.7 rebounds, 6.3 assists and 3.9 turnovers.

In terms of team success, Jordan's three UNC teams were 88-13 (87.1 percent) went 8-2 in NCAA play (80.0 percent) and won one national title. Williams' three Duke teams were 95-13 (88.0 percent), went 10-2 in NCAA play (83.3 percent) and won one national title.

Jordan's teams won one ACC title. Williams' teams won three ACC titles.

Jordan's teams were ranked No. 1 in the final AP poll twice ... Williams' teams were ranked No. 1 in the final AP poll three times.

Both players hit key shots in the national title game -- Jordan's was the game-winner against Georgetown in 1982 ... Jason's was the game-clincher against Arizona in 2001. But, in both cases, the Final Four MVP was a senior forward (Worthy in '82; Battier in 2001).

Both players careers ended with a stunning Sweet 16 upset at the hands of unranked Indiana.

Both played with other great players -- Jordan with three other first-team All-Americans -- Worthy (1982), Sam Perkins (1983, 1984), Kenny Smith (a freshman in 1984, he was first team A-A in 1987), plus Brad Daugherty, later the first player taken in the 1986 NBA draft and future pros Joe Wolf and Dave Popson (1984). Jason played with two first-team A-As (Carrawell in 2000, Battier in 2001), plus future pros Boozer, Dunleavy, Duhon (2001 and 2002) and Dahntay Jones (2002).

Jordan was first-team All-ACC has a sophomore and a junior ... Williams was first-team All-ACC as a sophomore and a junior. Williams was third-team All-ACC as a freshman (there wasn't a third-team when Jordan was a freshman). Jordan was 1984 ACC player of the year ... Williams finished second for that award to Battier in 2001 and Juan Dixon in 2002. But Jason was ACC Tournament MVP in 2000 -- an award Jordan never won.

Both were consensus first-team All-Americans as sophomores and juniors. Jordan was the Sporting News NPOY as a sophomore in 1983, then swept every major NPOY award in 1984. Jason won the NABC NPOY as a sophomore in 2001, then swept every major NPOY in 2002.

Jordan was the third player picked in the 1984 NBA draft. Williams was the second player taken in the 2002 NBA draft. (Coincidentally, the Houston Rockets had the first pick in each draft and both times picked a foreign born big man).

So tell, me, which had the better COLLEGE career? How do you separate the two?

-- Worthy doesn't deserve a spot on any all-time team ... indeed, his teammate Sam Perkins has a better case. Worthy was never ACC POY or national player of the year. He was first-team All-ACC once and was a one-time consensus All-American.

-- What about Len Chappell? People talk about Tim Duncan, but Chappell accomplished more (two ACC titles and he led Wake to its only Final Four -- something Duncan never did), while averaging 24.9 points and 13.9 rebounds for his carer. As a senior, he averaged 30.2 points and 15.1 rebounds for the Deacons' Final Four team.

-- As much as I love Hurley (and Lucas), I have to agree with the vote for Ford as the ACC's greatest point guard. He's still (for a few more weeks) UNC's all-time leading scorer (when he finished in 1978, he ranked 3rd in ACC history in scoring). His 753 assists are still the 10th best in ACC history -- when he finished, he was first by a wide margin ... in fact, Ford is still the only player who saw action before 1979 to rank in the top 25 in ACC history. He played in an era when assists were harder to come by than they are today -- his 753 would probably top the 1,000 mark with the same scoring rules as favored Hurley and Corchiani.

-- I think Thompson -- the greatest ACC player ever -- Ford and Laettner are the three givens on any all-time ACC team. After that, we can argue among the other candidates -- Bias, Dawkins, Burleson, Lucas and don't forget Battier -- deserve to be in the discussion. So do oldtimes such as Chappell, Charlie Scott, Dickie Hemric, Lennie Rosenbluth, Larry Miller, Art Heyman (the ACC's first consensus national player of the year). And don't forget JJ Redick ... you can make the case that he was the greatest ACC Tournament performer in ACC history, plus he ended up as the leading scorer in ACC history.

-- Finally -- Dick Groat doesn't make the debate -- he left Duke two years before the ACC was formed.

[jv001]

You know, everyone looks at stats -- which do a great job of showing offensive production. But, what about the other 50% of the game?


Who would be the ACC's all-time defensive team?

PG - ?????? - I dunno though I think Amaker goes high on the list. He was better than Wojo (who also won a DPOY).
SG - ?????? - Johnny Rhodes or Juan Dixon (#1 and #2 in career steals)
SF - Billy King (best on-the-ball defender I have ever seen)
PF - Battier
C - Duncan

--Jason "if not for Duncan, Ralph Sampson would be firmly in the C spot-- stud shotblocker!" Evans

Jason I agree with King(best ever), Battier, Duncan, Amaker and Bobby Jones(unc overlooked great).

[CameronBornAndBred]

Chill out about this poll -- it's an open internet poll strongly advertised in a market dominated by UNC fans. OF COURSE, it's going to be dominated by Tar Heels. Take it for what it's worth. Heck, the way its going, they'll probably pick Tyler Hansbrough as the all-time center.
.
Just a note that the staff picked Jordan unanimously, separate from the fan voting. The fans had Redick as a close second, so all in all I give the fans more respect than the station's own sports unit.

[sagegrouse]

I'd say Duke should be shut out of the list. That's not saying that we will, just that we should. I'd put Sampson in ahead of Laettner. That said, I'd have gone with Sampson and Laettner over Worthy.

I think Thompson and Sampson should be givens. I'd put Laettner in as well. The guard spots are more interesting. I'd say Phil Ford and Jason Williams would be 1 and 2 in some order, and I can accept strong arguments for each. At shooting guard, I'd have gone with Johnny Dawkins ahead of Jordan. The only edge Jordan had in college was that his team won a title. But Jordan was a freshman on that team - that was Worthy's team and Jordan was a complementary player. I'd go with Dawkins.

So my team would be:
Sampson
Laettner
Thompson
Dawkins
Ford

This reads like one of my posts when I have edited it so much that there are conflicting conclusions in different paragraphs. E.g.: "I'd say Duke should be shut out of the list." Then your team includes both Laettner and Dawkins.

But never mind:

Given the difficulties of intergenerational and inter-school comparisons, I might limit the team to the best player from each school while in the ACC. And then pick from that group. This way you let each school duke it out (no pun intended) for its best player and then, when the smoke clears, assemble a team.

I'll publish some thought along these lines later--

sagegrouse

[arnie]

The local tv station in Raleigh is picking its alltime acc team by position this week. So far, Phil Ford, David Thompson, Michael Jordan and James Worthy. Is there a chance tomorrow they will pick someone other than Laettner?? Could it be Sam Perkins to make it 4 Heels or simply assign the post position to Hansbrough. Or not to make it obvious, do they go with Ralph Sampson??

Of course the selection of Jordan is just stupid - but they don't seem to understand the difference between greatest college players and nba players (except for the beloved straight arrow Ford).

And . . . Sampson was the choice by 10 "experts", 7 to 3 over Laettner. Why does that not surprise me.

[dukelifer]

And . . . Sampson was the choice by 10 "experts", 7 to 3 over Laettner. Why does that not surprise me.

I guess this makes K's three championships all the more impressive given that he did not have one of the 5 best of all time on any of his teams. To think , Dean Smith needed Worthy AND Jordan on the same team just to get his first :D