Official box score

[Jumbo]

One of the things people don't realize about basketball -- especially college basketball -- is how the stats vary from arena to arena. You depend a lot on stat crews that aren't always that great. I mention this because I was just looking at the official box score (http://www.goduke.com/pdf4/356565.pdf?ATCLID=3629358&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200)from the Michigan game. A couple of things stood out for me. First, Singler had seven assists. Really? Sure didn't seem like that many. And Scheyer only had two? I can remember three off the top of my head, and I thought it was closer to four or five.
Then they give Lance Thomas two blocks that I don't remember, while McClure has none, and I'm pretty sure he blocked a shot (with his left hand, maybe) in the first half, along the baseline. Even if I had a video of the game, I wouldn't want to go back and watch. But if someone feels like it, I'd love to know how far off some of these "official" stats really are.

[Wander]

I think I remember Singler getting most of those assists with the quasi-meaningless baskets at the end when we finally starting hitting a few threes. Two for Scheyer doesn't seem strange to me, but neither would three or four. I'm close to 100% sure that McClure had two blocks though - I even remember Bilas saying "A couple of blocks for McClure." Pretty poor job to attribute those to Lance.

[Lord Ash]

So strange that there isn't more consistency with that. McClure most assuredly had a few blocks. Is there a "governing body" for this sort of thing? Does the NCAA check this stuff, and is there a method for replacement of stats people?

[Jumbo]

So strange that there isn't more consistency with that. McClure most assuredly had a few blocks. Is there a "governing body" for this sort of thing? Does the NCAA check this stuff, and is there a method for replacement of stats people?

The NCAA definitely doesn't review stats. I guess Duke could complain to Michigan if they really wanted something changed (like the blocks), but I'm not sure how that would happen. I know Mike Cragg has posted here a couple of times -- if anyone feels like bringing this thread to his attention, I'd love to get his thoughts.

[gw67]

I recall that McClure had a block on a drive to the basket. The differences in assist totals doesn't surprise me. I swear that Cota would start the game with 3 assists when UNC played at home.

gw67

[Truth]

One of the things people don't realize about basketball -- especially college basketball -- is how the stats vary from arena to arena. You depend a lot on stat crews that aren't always that great. I mention this because I was just looking at the official box score (http://www.goduke.com/pdf4/356565.pdf?ATCLID=3629358&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200)from the Michigan game. A couple of things stood out for me. First, Singler had seven assists. Really? Sure didn't seem like that many. And Scheyer only had two? I can remember three off the top of my head, and I thought it was closer to four or five.
Then they give Lance Thomas two blocks that I don't remember, while McClure has none, and I'm pretty sure he blocked a shot (with his left hand, maybe) in the first half, along the baseline. Even if I had a video of the game, I wouldn't want to go back and watch. But if someone feels like it, I'd love to know how far off some of these "official" stats really are.

On the subject of record keeping, I recommend everyone check out this article: http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=14

One of the more recent examples of variances in assist records keeping across venues, with good statistical evidence to back it up.

[devildeac]

The NCAA definitely doesn't review stats. I guess Duke could complain to Michigan if they really wanted something changed (like the blocks), but I'm not sure how that would happen. I know Mike Cragg has posted here a couple of times -- if anyone feels like bringing this thread to his attention, I'd love to get his thoughts.

I think DBR posted recently that Mike Cragg had surgery last month. Verification, anyone? If that is the case, I hope he is speeding to recovery, while reading every post he can possibly handle;).

[Lord Ash]

Ahh Ken Pom... let me count the ways I love thee.

Very interesting article.

[mr. synellinden]

I also could have sworn that Singler had two threes - one in each half. I am almost certain of it. I remember at one point when he hit a three in the second half, they said he's now 1 for 5 or 1 for 6 and I thought to myself, they're wrong - he's got at least two because I know he hit one in the first half.

Now, of course they were probably looking at the first half stat sheet - where I think the mistake might have been made. I wonder if a player would look at the boxscore and remember that he hit a certain number of threes or had a certain number of blocks, or whether a tape would get reviewed for that sort of thing.

I should have saved the recording of the game to go back and check but I was too disappointed by the result to save it.

[KyDevilinIL]

During the regular season in college, "official" statistics are often compiled by the sports information staff – or whatever a particular school calls its equivalent department – of the school hosting the game. But the actual crew working stats varies wildly – from student sports information assistants to experienced stats guys. In some cases, usually at lower-tier schools, stats might even be kept by volunteers who just want to be involved in the game somehow. There's not much consistency in personnel, and to my knowledge, rarely if ever any oversight by the NCAA.

So in regard to variations and discrepancies at particular locations, it's more of an issue of who is handling stats rather than the venue, although that's probably just semantics. And having spent plenty of time on various press rows, the physical placement of a stat crew can have a dramatic influence on the final statistical tally. Sightlines matter, as does the number of spotters helping the guy who's actually loading the numbers into the software. You simply don't see as much or as well from a courtside position as you do on TV or even with a few rows of elevation in the arena. One spotter aiding one guy at the computer from a courtside position really doesn't cut it, although that's often what you get.

[Jumbo]

During the regular season in college, "official" statistics are often compiled by the sports information staff – or whatever a particular school calls its equivalent department – of the school hosting the game. But the actual crew working stats varies wildly – from student sports information assistants to experienced stats guys. In some cases, usually at lower-tier schools, stats might even be kept by volunteers who just want to be involved in the game somehow. There's not much consistency in personnel, and to my knowledge, rarely if ever any oversight by the NCAA.

So in regard to variations and discrepancies at particular locations, it's more of an issue of who is handling stats rather than the venue, although that's probably just semantics. And having spent plenty of time on various press rows, the physical placement of a stat crew can have a dramatic influence on the final statistical tally. Sightlines matter, as does the number of spotters helping the guy who's actually loading the numbers into the software. You simply don't see as much or as well from a courtside position as you do on TV or even with a few rows of elevation in the arena. One spotter aiding one guy at the computer from a courtside position really doesn't cut it, although that's often what you get.

Exactly. And the smaller the school, the worse it can get. That said, it's pretty easy to try to get McClure's blocks fixed, for instance. Someone just needs to e-mail Michigan's sports information department. Anyone willing to volunteer for the task?

And thanks to whomever posted the KenPom article. I was thinking of that when I posted, but couldn't remember who wrote it or when.

[Olympic Fan]

Pomery's article was excellent ... let me add that there was a very similar historical situation in the ACC.

As you probably know, assist totals only became an officially recognized stat in 1973 (although various teams sometimes counted this much earlier -- back to the days of Dick Groat at Duke).

When the NCAA first starting compiling assist stats in the 1970s, there were WIDE variations on interpretations of the rules. For more than a decade, Clemson was extremely liberal with assists (more even than UNC), while Virginia was remarkably stingy. Doyle Smith, who as UVa's assistant sports information director and the head of the school's stat crew, insisted on a ridiculously strict definition of an assist -- Virginia's crew would typically award one or two assists a game.

That changed over time and the various ACC assist definitions tended to even out. By the mid-eighties there was little difference in the way assists were handed out by school. But when you look at historical assist totals, keep in mind that guys like John Lucas and Phil Ford were hurt by standards that were far more strict than when Corchiani or Hurley were piling up their remarkable totals.

Currently, my biggest problem with the Duke stat crew is the way they award (or don't reward) blocks. If you'll go back to Laettner, you'll find that Duke big men have extraordinarily high steal totals ... but that's at the expense of blocked shots.

By NCAA rule, if you block a shot that's still in the shooter's hand, it's not a block -- if Duke comes up with the ball, it's a steal, even when the opponent is clearly shooting. If trhe opposing team keeps the ball, it's nothing statistically. Nobody else counts them that way, but at Duke, the ball must be out of the shooters hand before its counted as a block ... and (I suspect, but can't prove), they only count emphatic blocks. I've seen dozens of occasions when a Duke defender will tip a shot, causing it to miss, but it isn't counted as a blocked shot.

Another gripe I have with the blocked shot rule. A player is fouled while shooting ... a second defender comes over and blocks the shot. That doesn't count as a block, even though the basket would have counted if the shot had gone in (because the shot didn't go in, it's not officially a shot). Shelden Williams lost dozens of blocks in this manner -- three in the 2005 victory over UNC in Cameron.

[CDu]

Another gripe I have with the blocked shot rule. A player is fouled while shooting ... a second defender comes over and blocks the shot. That doesn't count as a block, even though the basket would have counted if the shot had gone in (because the shot didn't go in, it's not officially a shot). Shelden Williams lost dozens of blocks in this manner -- three in the 2005 victory over UNC in Cameron.

I have no issue with the way basketball handles missed shots/blocked shots after a foul is committed. It would be unfair to count a missed shot for a player who has been fouled. Thus, if you don't count a missed shot, there's no shot to block.

Another way of looking at it would be that the shot is altered by the foul. The foul may keep the offensive player from fully elevating. It may force a weaker shot attempt. Each of these would make it easier to block the shot.

I think the nullification of the shot (and any subsequent blocks) on a missed shot due to a foul makes complete sense. In addition, it takes the arbitrary nature out of subjective stat collecting, because that rule is universally the case in such situations. Every defender is theoretically "affected" by this, so no one is done any injustice.

[willywoody]

Exactly. And the smaller the school, the worse it can get. That said, it's pretty easy to try to get McClure's blocks fixed, for instance. Someone just needs to e-mail Michigan's sports information department. Anyone willing to volunteer for the task?

And thanks to whomever posted the KenPom article. I was thinking of that when I posted, but couldn't remember who wrote it or when.

while they are at it they could fix Henderson's 2 credited blocks to somewhere in the 3-5 range.

[duketaylor]

Assists and blocks definitions, I mean. I believe the definitions even vary from the NCAA to the NBA, is this correct? I believe an assist is somewhat defined as a pass from one player to another leading to a score without the scorer dribbling the ball. Is that correct? If true it's too bad since a rebounder should get an assist, IMO, for making a great outlet pass to an open man who must dribble once or twice to score on a breakaway.
To me a block is simply altering (see touching) a shot that doesn't go in, whether in the shooter's hand or not. A block should never be misconstrued as a steal which is a result from an attempted pass or simply taking the ball away from someone. I dunno, thoughts?

[Jumbo]

Assists and blocks definitions, I mean. I believe the definitions even vary from the NCAA to the NBA, is this correct? I believe an assist is somewhat defined as a pass from one player to another leading to a score without the scorer dribbling the ball. Is that correct? If true it's too bad since a rebounder should get an assist, IMO, for making a great outlet pass to an open man who must dribble once or twice to score on a breakaway.
To me a block is simply altering (see touching) a shot that doesn't go in, whether in the shooter's hand or not. A block should never be misconstrued as a steal which is a result from an attempted pass. I dunno, thoughts?

No, assists generally allow at least two dribbles as a rule of thumb, though that isn't official. There's some subjectivity involved, as you'll see in this link (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/Stats_Manuals/Basketball/2009EZ.pdf).

[throatybeard]

We should start a petition for hockey assists in basketball. I'm pretty sure Wojo would be the NCAA leader if they were awarded retroactively...