Tyler Thornton

[RainingThrees]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2008/12/03/VI2008120303389.html

[juise]

Thanks for posting. It's nice to hear his coach talk about what he does to make his team better.

[watzone]

Tyler Thornton's team lost a tough game recently, but his team hopes to defend their state title as the season progresses. Tyler spoke of many subjects in this recent interview -

http://bluedevilnation.net/?p=1441

[Lord Ash]

Thanks for the interview!

On an aside, I am always amazed when recruits have not been to a Duke game yet. What?! I would think that would be, along with the new practice facility, a MUST for incoming recruits. Why aren't ALL juniors we are interested in brought down to see games? Is it because they can't take official visits yet, and only seniors can, and often they commit before official visits can be taken?

[watzone]

Thanks for the interview!

On an aside, I am always amazed when recruits have not been to a Duke game yet. What?! I would think that would be, along with the new practice facility, a MUST for incoming recruits. Why aren't ALL juniors we are interested in brought down to see games? Is it because they can't take official visits yet, and only seniors can, and often they commit before official visits can be taken?

Tyler has been down twice for games and played here during last years TOC. You must keep in mind that Duke gets one official visit with players and they can take up to five. That means they have to pay their own way other than tickets.

[watzone]

Andrew Slater talked with Tyler Thornton last weekend and found out what the coahes want him to work on and how hsi Mom is a Cameron Crazy waiting to happen. Here is the in depth interview -

http://bluedevilnation.net/?p=1649

Thortnton also helped his team to a huge victory over a talented DeMatha team this week. It seems to me that the individual player threads are getting awfully cluttered, so perhaps, a Tyler Thornton II thread is in order so we don't have to wade through all of the information before he committed.

[jv001]

Another great interview Mark. Tyler Thornton sounds like he has it together. Seems to have an unselfish attitude and that's a good attitude to have as a point guard. Thanks for the update on Tyler Go Duke!

[Newton_14]

Great article Mark. Thanks for sharing. I can't wait to see both Tyler and Josh in Duke uniforms.

[Smitty1911]

Thanks for sharing, Watzone -- good read. Another pair of close friends joining the rivalry. Nice to know that, with all the fire on the court and in the stands, afterwards these are just cool kids that like each other.

TT: Kendall. That’s like my best friend . We went to middle school together and played on the same team.

[BD80]

Tyler tweated today:


Coach coming up for a in house this afternoon. Until then i gotta finish this homework.lol.

http://twitter.com/tythornton1

Is that Coach K?

[FireOgilvie]

Tyler tweated today:



http://twitter.com/tythornton1

Is that Coach K?

I looked at the link and he just added another one:

"finally finished my homework. Coach K and Coach Wojo will be here in a couple hours. watchin football until then."

[CameronBornAndBred]

I looked at the link and he just added another one:

"finally finished my homework. Coach K and Coach Wojo will be here in a couple hours. watchin football until then."
As nice as that is, I'm bummed that I now have to twitter by proxy. Is his dad sitting on the porch?

(I enjoy not twittering anything or following anybody)

[Indoor66]

I looked at the twitter page for this kid and I cannot believe that anyone would want to read this blather. Who cares about the moment to moment activities of anyone elses life? This strikes me as insane. Both posting it and others reading it. Why not just keep a diary for yourself? Why publish it? I don't understand the fascination over reading the momentary thoughts of others.

[BD80]

I looked at the twitter page for this kid and I cannot believe that anyone would want to read this blather. Who cares about the moment to moment activities of anyone elses life? This strikes me as insane. Both posting it and others reading it. Why not just keep a diary for yourself? Why publish it? I don't understand the fascination over reading the momentary thoughts of others.

I found it interesting that Coach K was visiting and hadn't seen the info on this site. Sorry I lured you into the insanity of reading Tyler's Twitter page.

As for posting and reading blather, and the "the fascination over reading the momentary thoughts of others," you wouldn't be referring to the Public Policy Board would you?

[ACCBBallFan]

Thanks for sharing, Watzone -- good read. Another pair of close friends joining the rivalry. Nice to know that, with all the fire on the court and in the stands, afterwards these are just cool kids that like each other.

TT: Kendall. That’s like my best friend . We went to middle school together and played on the same team. Hadn't noticed this first time around but saw it today when someone reopened the thread, Sounds like another Ellington-Henderson friendship though this time I think the teams will be more even on W-L next several years.

[Indoor66]

I found it interesting that Coach K was visiting and hadn't seen the info on this site. Sorry I lured you into the insanity of reading Tyler's Twitter page.

As for posting and reading blather, and the "the fascination over reading the momentary thoughts of others," you wouldn't be referring to the Public Policy Board would you?

Good point.:eek:

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I looked at the twitter page for this kid and I cannot believe that anyone would want to read this blather. Who cares about the moment to moment activities of anyone elses life? This strikes me as insane. Both posting it and others reading it. Why not just keep a diary for yourself? Why publish it? I don't understand the fascination over reading the momentary thoughts of others.
Yeah, it's like posting what you had for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That would be just crazietalk :D

[Bluedevil114]

As long as keeps twittering to Kyrie to come to Duke, he can twitter whatever he wants. That is a teamplayer and a kid that wants to win even if he loses minutes.

[G man]

As long as keeps twittering to Kyrie to come to Duke, he can twitter whatever he wants. That is a teamplayer and a kid that wants to win even if he loses minutes.

yeah who cares what he writes! this kid seems to be another quality individual who is out there helping the program. I hope he lets me know what he is having for dinner all next week!

[JaMarcus Russell]

Not sure if this is the right thread for this info, but Tyler Thornton signed his LOI today. He will officially be a Blue Devil next year. Here's a picture from the ceremony (credit goes to Harv1790 on the free side of TDD).

I guess his dad/uncle/random family friend celebrated by doing the robot (or he got caught in a weird angle) :D

http://bluedevilnation.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Picture-042-300x225.jpg

ETA: I just found the original article on BDN. Thanks, Watzone.

[mailman2927]

welcome aboard tyler, it's great to have you.

[RainingThrees]

Welcome to Duke Tyler. Prove to all the "experts" out there that this Duke class wasn't all about getting Barnes.

[gumbomoop]

I have some new questions about TT, so thought I'd revive this long-lost thread, and seek some info from posters who know more than I about TT.

My questions have to do with his "ranking" by the several "rankers" [assuming they're not wankers]. He's not highly, highly rated, so I'm wondering what the "rankers" see as his flaws, relative to top-50, even top-100 group. Here are my imaginings; any of them valid?

height - usually listed at 6'2", maybe only 6'?
quickness - lacking?
shot - not so much?
handle - adequate, but no more than that?
vision, decision-making - good, not excellent?

Or, are rankings totally weighted toward O, with no points awarded for D, said to be TT's forte? Or, after top 50, are the next 200 kids essentially equal, prospectively, and one just has to see who develops and surprises? Or, assuming K and staff have seen stuff to which wanker-rankers have been blind, has TT simply been ranked far too low, and he's gonna make 'em eat their numbers?

I think TT's rumored to be excellent leader and defender. I assume he's recruited as a 4-year guy. FWIW, I have posted more than once, re minutes-distribution in '10-'11, that I think he'll get some minutes first half of season, but will get fewer minutes by late-season. Intuitively, however, I'm not going to be shocked if he and CF still get some defensive-stopper-minutes even late-season.

Anyone have info or views on TT's under-valuation?

[JohnGalt]

height - usually listed at 6'2", maybe only 6'?
quickness - lacking?
shot - not so much?
handle - adequate, but no more than that?
vision, decision-making - good, not excellent?

Or, are rankings totally weighted toward O, with no points awarded for D, said to be TT's forte? Or, after top 50, are the next 200 kids essentially equal, prospectively, and one just has to see who develops and surprises? Or, assuming K and staff have seen stuff to which wanker-rankers have been blind, has TT simply been ranked far too low, and he's gonna make 'em eat their numbers?


I have a hard time believing his quickness is overly lacking if one of his prime assests are his defensive skills. His baseline to baseline speed may be on the slow side (hypothetical - I don't know this), but as far as laterally, can you really be slow and still be a good defender? That doesn't seem like it really fits.

[mattman91]

I have some new questions about TT, so thought I'd revive this long-lost thread, and seek some info from posters who know more than I about TT.

My questions have to do with his "ranking" by the several "rankers" [assuming they're not wankers]. He's not highly, highly rated, so I'm wondering what the "rankers" see as his flaws, relative to top-50, even top-100 group. Here are my imaginings; any of them valid?

height - usually listed at 6'2", maybe only 6'?
quickness - lacking?
shot - not so much?
handle - adequate, but no more than that?
vision, decision-making - good, not excellent?

Or, are rankings totally weighted toward O, with no points awarded for D, said to be TT's forte? Or, after top 50, are the next 200 kids essentially equal, prospectively, and one just has to see who develops and surprises? Or, assuming K and staff have seen stuff to which wanker-rankers have been blind, has TT simply been ranked far too low, and he's gonna make 'em eat their numbers?

I think TT's rumored to be excellent leader and defender. I assume he's recruited as a 4-year guy. FWIW, I have posted more than once, re minutes-distribution in '10-'11, that I think he'll get some minutes first half of season, but will get fewer minutes by late-season. Intuitively, however, I'm not going to be shocked if he and CF still get some defensive-stopper-minutes even late-season.

Anyone have info or views on TT's under-valuation?

I think Tyler will be a Sean Dckery 4 year type guy. I know Sean was ranked higher in high school, but those rankings dont really matter. After Tyler was signed, the staff still went after a high caliber pg and finally got KI. They are assuming Irving will only be around a year or maybe two, so when he leaves we wont be screwed and have to rely on another freshman pg or have to play someone out of position to run the point. (and we know you can win championships like that;)) I think eventually he will play solid minutes, maybe be a starter sometime in his career.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

I think his strongest qualities are leadership and defense.

[BattierBattalion]

I love this kid. Seems like he's down on rankings because he doesn't have the gaudy numbers and play, but he makes up for it with character, defense, and court-sense. Perfect for Duke.

According to reports, the kid is like Deion Sanders on defense. He can read a play 5 seconds before time, and he can shut down guys one-on-one or helping. He's destroyed Kendall Marshall a few times.

I fully expect him to be a no-stats, valuable contributor ala Lance Thomas/Shane Battier type. Coach K will love him.

[fgb]

I fully expect him to be a no-stats, valuable contributor ala Lance Thomas/Shane Battier type. Coach K will love him.

initially, maybe. by his senior year, i see thornton starting (and leading us deep into march).

[juise]

initially, maybe. by his senior year, i see thornton starting (and leading us deep into march).

As the previous poster said... just like Shane and Lance. (However, Shane's was a great-numbers all-star at Duke.)

[Cockabeau]

Tyler will become an All american before he leaves duke.
The player he reminds me the most of is Chris Paul

[MisterRoddy]

Seeing as Duke is on the rise, I don't see Thornton starting anytime soon and if everything goes as it has been going of late, Thornton will probably never start (unless he's drastically better than we all thought). Irving is most likely starting for the next 2 years and if he leaves after 1, we have Seth. if Irving does stay for 2 years, we probably get a good pg recruit in 2012 and even if we don't, we still have Curry for his senior year (hopefully Rivers too).

I'm hoping Thornton is a very solid backup guard, but if he's as good as his ranking, I hope he doesn't start for us as that would mean there's better talent ahead of him. Seeing where Duke is headed, I don't see him starting.

This post was in no way intended to bash Thornton, just voicing my opinions.

[m g]

As the previous poster said... just like Shane and Lance. (However, Shane's was a great-numbers all-star at Duke.)

Battier was rated No. 1 by some recruiting services...

[chrisheery]

Tyler will become an All american before he leaves duke.
The player he reminds me the most of is Chris Paul

Really? Awesome.

[-bdbd]

He'll get his play, for sure, b/c the way to get game minutes under K is to play great D, and practice well/hard. His most valuable contribution the first two years will be as a practice player, playing good D and making KI and SC better for it.

He's the kind of player every coach LOVES having on his squad -- a "glue guy," doing whatever is needed or asked. This is a future team captain at Duke.



:rolleyes:

[hedevil]

Welcome aboard Tyler.

I agree. He will be a good asset during practice. Kyrie, Seth and even Nolan will gain good experience going up against TT regularly.

[hood7]

Welcome aboard Tyler.

I agree. He will be a good asset during practice. Kyrie, Seth and even Nolan will gain good experience going up against TT regularly.


I'm thinking Tyler will also benefit from matching up against KI, SC, and NS. He could become a real sleeper hit !

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Tyler will become an All american before he leaves duke.
The player he reminds me the most of is Chris Paul

I don't know about all of that, but he will be a great leader Duke, first or second team all acc is something I think a little more possible.

[Big Pappa]

Tyler will become an All american before he leaves duke.
The player he reminds me the most of is Chris Paul

All-American is a stretch. I also don't see him as Chris Paul type at all. CP is more of an offensively oriented player with not a good but a great shot. I don't think that is TT's game at all.

[Big Pappa]

I fully expect him to be a no-stats, valuable contributor ala Lance Thomas/Shane Battier type. Coach K will love him.

How can you have a handle like "BattierBattalion" and then say that he was a no-stats, valuable contributor? Here's a little Shane rundown for you:

High School:
Mr. Basketball in Michigan
Naithsmith POY

College:
2-time All-American
3-time National Defensive POY
2001 - National POY
Averaged just 19.9ppg, 7.3rpg, 2.1spg and 2.3bpg senior year
Jersey Retired

Not exactly a "no-stats" valuable contributor. No offense to Lance and I'm sure he would say the same thing but as far as their respective college careers, no way Lance and Shane should be mentioned in the same sentence.

[Kedsy]

Not exactly a "no-stats" valuable contributor. No offense to Lance and I'm sure he would say the same thing but as far as their respective college careers, no way Lance and Shane should be mentioned in the same sentence.

To be fair to the original poster, Shane didn't put up a whole lot of stats his first two years. It wasn't until his junior year that he started putting up numbers.

That said, he was national defensive player of the year his sophomore year, so I agree "no stats contributor" might be underselling his achievement, even in the two years when he wasn't much of a scorer.

[Big Pappa]

To be fair to the original poster, Shane didn't put up a whole lot of stats his first two years. It wasn't until his junior year that he started putting up numbers.

That said, he was national defensive player of the year his sophomore year, so I agree "no stats contributor" might be underselling his achievement, even in the two years when he wasn't much of a scorer.

That's true about his offensive numbers his first two years, but I think the original poster was refering to TT's end career.

[greybeard]

I think TT's playing-time prospects increase in direct proportion to how much offense K seeks and gets from his front court players other than Singler. If they score inside, particularly at the rim as a regular feature of next season's offense, I think that TT is likely to see much more time than people expect. Why?

He's a very good defender and finder of the ball, errant passes, loose balls, long rebounds. He is alert all the time, makes good decisions, and has strength that is deceptive. He'd be a great defender on the wing especially. When I saw him play against DeMatha, he did not man-up on DeMatha's all world point guard who tore Gonzaga up. There were quicker guards/players on Gonzaga who got that honor. I think that the same would happen if he sees playing time at Duke.

TT can definitely run a team and be counted on to make good decisions under pressure and not turn it over. He can get inside the defense but lacks the speed to finish before the help arrives and the hoops or floater game to finish after it does, at least he lacked it against DeMatha.

He shoots the 3 well enough to keep defenders honest.

Think young Tommy Amaker here, without the blazing speed but with the ability to contribute on both ends without hurting your team. If Duke has an inside scoring game, look for him to compete well for playing team against the other guards who won't be starting, whose forte is shooting. I don't know that they hang with this kid on the other end or in his ability to get the ball moving well on offense.

[BattierBattalion]

That's true about his offensive numbers his first two years, but I think the original poster was refering to TT's end career.

I should have been clearer. I meant the NBA-version of Shane Battier. Not the Duke one.

[BD80]

I think y'all might be selling TyT a mite short.

I doubt Coach K has yet announced the starting line-up for the first game, and Tyler will be working hard to earn that spot at PG. He may not earn the start, but I will bet he will be available should their ever be a let-down in defensive pressure on the other team's PG.

Frankly, I am concerned that there will be some complacency on the defensive end this coming year because we are losing three starters that each had to work their butts off to play at such a high level. Next year we insert the Plumlees, who display more talent than effort, a wonderfully gifted transfer (Curry) and one of the nation's most talented freshmen. With the offensive firepower we will have, it may be natural to let down on the defensive end. I think that Kyrie, Nolan, Seth and dre are going to have to work VERY hard on the defensive end to keep TyT on the bench.

[BattierBattalion]

I think that Kyrie, Nolan, Seth and dre are going to have to work VERY hard on the defensive end to keep TyT on the bench.

Fully agree with everything you just said. Remember everyone, Coach K plays guys based on how hard they play and their defense.

I totally see a situation where Kyrie, Andre, or Seth have a defensive lapse allowing a guard to get to the rim easily, then Coach K getting angry and subbing Tyler in.

[oldnavy]

I think y'all might be selling TyT a mite short.

I doubt Coach K has yet announced the starting line-up for the first game, and Tyler will be working hard to earn that spot at PG. He may not earn the start, but I will bet he will be available should their ever be a let-down in defensive pressure on the other team's PG.

Frankly, I am concerned that there will be some complacency on the defensive end this coming year because we are losing three starters that each had to work their butts off to play at such a high level. Next year we insert the Plumlees, who display more talent than effort, a wonderfully gifted transfer (Curry) and one of the nation's most talented freshmen. With the offensive firepower we will have, it may be natural to let down on the defensive end. I think that Kyrie, Nolan, Seth and dre are going to have to work VERY hard on the defensive end to keep TyT on the bench.

Hit the nail on the head. If TT can play tight D at either guard position, he will get PT... and think about this. If he is the defensive player he is purported to be, what a wonderful advantage to have for our other guards to practice against, plus to be able to pull him off the bench (fresh legged) and throw on a hot handed player in spot situations in games. I think Curry gave us a great offensive practice player this year that helped our guys prepare for games on the defensive side, think of TT as doing the same for the offensive side, except he will be able to contribute during the games...

[ElSid]

Hit the nail on the head. If TT can play tight D at either guard position, he will get PT... and think about this. If he is the defensive player he is purported to be, what a wonderful advantage to have for our other guards to practice against, plus to be able to pull him off the bench (fresh legged) and throw on a hot handed player in spot situations in games. I think Curry gave us a great offensive practice player this year that helped our guys prepare for games on the defensive side, think of TT as doing the same for the offensive side, except he will be able to contribute during the games...

easy to get excited about that. we're definitely in a rich get richer scenario, or maybe it's success succeeds. either way, we got big mo on our sides right now. expecting coach k to do a good job to keep everyone happy and motivated.

i'd love to just watch our a and b team practice next year.

[Memphis Devil]

I think y'all might be selling TyT a mite short.

I doubt Coach K has yet announced the starting line-up for the first game, and Tyler will be working hard to earn that spot at PG. He may not earn the start, but I will bet he will be available should their ever be a let-down in defensive pressure on the other team's PG.

Frankly, I am concerned that there will be some complacency on the defensive end this coming year because we are losing three starters that each had to work their butts off to play at such a high level. Next year we insert the Plumlees, who display more talent than effort, a wonderfully gifted transfer (Curry) and one of the nation's most talented freshmen. With the offensive firepower we will have, it may be natural to let down on the defensive end. I think that Kyrie, Nolan, Seth and dre are going to have to work VERY hard on the defensive end to keep TyT on the bench.

I think that we will be fine with a slight defensive lapse that sees us giving up 70 to 75 pts per game because I think we will be averaging closer to 90!

[airowe]

There's no shortage of hyperbole in this thread, when did Bill Walton start posting on DBR?

Tyler Thornton an All-American? Averaging 90 ppg? At least our guys won't be able to overachieve...

[Jderf]

Next year we insert the Plumlees, who display more talent than effort...

Just a quick word in defense of the Plumlees, I don't think the right thing to question is their effort. When I watch them they play hard, they run the court, they're active on both ends. I think what should have been said is they display more talent than discipline. They need to work on their understanding of the team defense and just knowing where to be, proper positioning, weak side help, etc. They're still young and these will come in time (I hope), but it's definitely not a cause to start questioning their effort, which is excellent. (Sorry for being slightly off-topic.)

[1999ballboy]

I imagine he'll play a similar role to that of Sean Dockery in 03-04. He'll be playing behind several very talented guards, but still get substantial PT off the bench and be expected to make big defensive contributions.

[Cockabeau]

Despite being ranked 140th in the nation, I think he will turn out to be one of the better PG's in the K era.

You can't teach leadership,fundamentals and great defense. These are qualities in not good, but GREAT point guards.

TT reminds me of a Dockery/Duhon/Paul/Paulus type hybrid PG. He might even challenge KI and Austin River (if we get him) for playing time.

[BD80]

Just a quick word in defense of the Plumlees, I don't think the right thing to question is their effort. When I watch them they play hard, they run the court, they're active on both ends. I think what should have been said is they display more talent than discipline. They need to work on their understanding of the team defense and just knowing where to be, proper positioning, weak side help, etc. They're still young and these will come in time (I hope), but it's definitely not a cause to start questioning their effort, which is excellent. (Sorry for being slightly off-topic.)

I disagree that their effort was excellent. Their effort markedly improved over the course of the year, and was good by the end of the year. Mason, understandably, had the farthest to come. However, there was a noticeable difference in the dedication to defense, blocking out and running the court, between our seniors and the Plumlees. The difference between good and great. I think it is completely fair to say the Plumlees displayed more talent than effort.

I do agree that they also lacked in discipline, but I have little if any concern about that. Mason and Miles will become much better about reaching, positioning and rotation by playing starters minutes with the realization that they will play more minutes if they avoid stupid fouls. By time we reach the meat of the conference schedule, they will be playing like vets.

I realize it is unfair to expect every player to dedicate themselves to defense like Lance or to blocking out like Z. I do hope the Plumlees dedicate themselves as much to the defensive end as to the offensive end.

I think getting back on defense is going to be MUCH more challenging in the coming year. Kyrie will be igniting the offense much more quickly, which will require more effort transitioning to offense (which ALL players gladly do, looking for a fast break feed or to follow the break for a put-back). This also requires a lot of discipline and hustle to be able to rotate back to prevent a break going in the opposite direction. With great power comes great responsibility ...

[Duvall]

TT reminds me of a Dockery/Duhon/Paul/Paulus type hybrid PG.

I can't think of a single thing those four players have in common.

[COYS]

I can't think of a single thing those four players have in common.

They all played point guard at some point in their college careers :)

[MChambers]

They all played point guard at some point in their college careers :)

In the ACC!

[COYS]

In the ACC!

And they all played in Cameron at least once!

[Big Pappa]

Despite being ranked 140th in the nation, I think he will turn out to be one of the better PG's in the K era.

You can't teach leadership,fundamentals and great defense. These are qualities in not good, but GREAT point guards.

TT reminds me of a Dockery/Duhon/Paul/Paulus type hybrid PG. He might even challenge KI and Austin River (if we get him) for playing time.

Is all this just your opinion or do you have anything to back any of it up?

[COYS]

To get back on subject, I think Thornton will have his day for Duke, but I don't think it will be next year unless there are injuries or someone is seriously underperforming. This is no knock on Thornton. He just has to compete with a third year sophomore and former freshman scoring champion in Curry, a senior leader and national champion in Smith, and the top PG recruit in the country in Irving. There's no shame in taking a back seat to those guys

[Big Pappa]

To get back on subject, I think Thornton will have his day for Duke, but I don't think it will be next year unless there are injuries or someone is seriously underperforming. This is no knock on Thornton. He just has to compete with a third year sophomore and former freshman scoring champion in Curry, a senior leader and national champion in Smith, and the top PG recruit in the country in Irving. There's no shame in taking a back seat to those guys

Totally agree, we are putting way too much pressure on a kid that, in all likelihood, will not play that much next year. Comparing him to Chris Paul, saying he will be an All-American, let the kid learn from guys like Nolan, Seth, and KI, and come into his own when he's ready.

[airowe]

Totally agree, we are putting way too much pressure on a kid that, in all likelihood, will not play that much next year. Comparing him to Chris Paul, saying he will be an All-American, let the kid learn from guys like Nolan, Seth, and KI, and come into his own when he's ready.

Big Pappa, I know you weren't around here last Summer, but that's what goes on here in the offseason. It's both funny and frightening at the same time.

[Big Pappa]

Big Pappa, I know you weren't around here last Summer, but that's what goes on here in the offseason. It's both funny and frightening at the same time.

Lol. Thanks airowe, good to know.

[greybeard]

Just a quick word in defense of the Plumlees, I don't think the right thing to question is their effort. When I watch them they play hard, they run the court, they're active on both ends. I think what should have been said is they display more talent than discipline. They need to work on their understanding of the team defense and just knowing where to be, proper positioning, weak side help, etc. They're still young and these will come in time (I hope), but it's definitely not a cause to start questioning their effort, which is excellent. (Sorry for being slightly off-topic.)

I still think I see some awkwardness, at times, that bespeaks blind spots (that are similar for both of them, no I don't think it's there jeans), in how they organize to do certain things that get them literally off balance and needing to recover before they can move properly or with no other choice but to look out of cync with how the game is evolving in particular moments.

Now, before you all start reaching for your reply buttons with blood in your eyes, yeap, I did know it is genes, not jeans. ;) Judo and soccer, not basketball is my recipe. Like they used to say of my grandmother's chicken soup, "it couldn't hurt."

I don't think that this is an age thing, although I agree with a poster on another thread who said, and I agree, that some or maybe all of this falls away when they know that they will be on the court most of the time regardless--they'll play freer and eliminate overthinking and tentativeness that can come when you know you might be yanked after one or two misstakes.

[Kedsy]

I still think I see some awkwardness, at times, that bespeaks blind spots (that are similar for both of them, no I don't think it's there jeans), in how they organize to do certain things that get them literally off balance and needing to recover before they can move properly or with no other choice but to look out of cync with how the game is evolving in particular moments.

Now, before you all start reaching for your reply buttons with blood in your eyes, yeap, I did know it is genes, not jeans. ;) Judo and soccer, not basketball is my recipe. Like they used to say of my grandmother's chicken soup, "it couldn't hurt."

I don't think that this is an age thing, although I agree with a poster on another thread who said, and I agree, that some or maybe all of this falls away when they know that they will be on the court most of the time regardless--they'll play freer and eliminate overthinking and tentativeness that can come when you know you might be yanked after one or two misstakes.

"Jeans" didn't bother me nearly as much as "there." Or "misstakes."

[Newton_14]

"Jeans" didn't bother me nearly as much as "there." Or "misstakes."

For some strange reason I always seem to "get" Greybeard (scary I know) and understand where he is coming from, and sometimes when his typo's are intentional and are his form of humor. So his typo's don't bother me. I think I made need therapy!!

I had not thought about one aspect of his post. Interesting thought. Some kids respond better when they are battling a teammate for playing time. They rise to the challenge and end up as better players.

However, other kids for some reason do not do well in that scenario and end up thinking too much. Those type kids seem to respond better when they know they will get all the PT they want. It is still pressure though, because in that scenario, they have to perform well for the team to perform well. But because they know they will be on the court a lot, they do play freer and end up playing better with less mistakes. Maybe both Plumlees will do better in the scenario.

One good example of the latter scenario imo is Nolan. He played outstanding this year and it seemed part of that was due to the fact there was no threat of going to the bench in favor of a better player. Nolan had to stay on the floor or the team was in trouble. As we all saw he responded to that with one of the biggest jumps in production from one year to the next we have ever seen.

So maybe Miles and Mason are similar to Nolan in that regard and end up not tightning up, making less mistakes, and becoming the interior monsters we all believe they can be. A heck of a lot of talent in those two young men. If K and staff find a way to get them to reach their potential they can be scary good as can the team.

[Memphis Devil]

There's no shortage of hyperbole in this thread, when did Bill Walton start posting on DBR?

Tyler Thornton an All-American? Averaging 90 ppg? At least our guys won't be able to overachieve...

Isn't this the time of year for wild and baseless posts about how next season will unfold? Besides, predicting a 90 ppg avg is much more reasonable, I think, than predicting AA status for an incoming Freshman not likely to have a chance to truly shine (enough to earn AA status) until his Junior year. But, since I've broken the ice, for myself anyways, we are only an Austin Rivers commitment from 3-peating (do I owe Pat Riley money for this?) as National Champions! :D


Yes, I am assuming a National Championship next year is a forgone conclusion! ;)

[Slackerb]

Some of you guys are smoking crack.

Thornton will average 5 mpg and 2-3 ppg and 1 assist.

He'll only see major action if someone is injured. Not every recruit is a star or impact instantly.

He'll be a big help for Duke after Irving is gone potentially, but not this year.

[gumbomoop]

Thornton will average 5 mpg and 2-3 ppg and 1 assist.

He'll only see major action if someone is injured. Not every recruit is a star or impact instantly.

He'll be a big help for Duke after Irving is gone potentially, but not this year.

I'm in this camp, although I've posted elsewhere scenarios in which TT plays a bit more. But even then, I can't imagine him playing a whole lot more, and his contributions would seem most likely to be as spot-situation-defender, not scorer. By late-season, depending on exactly how quickly he can learn to be an excellent defender in K's system, he could either play 10-12 mpg, or not at all.

[Big Pappa]

Some of you guys are smoking crack.

Thornton will average 5 mpg and 2-3 ppg and 1 assist.

He'll only see major action if someone is injured. Not every recruit is a star or impact instantly.

He'll be a big help for Duke after Irving is gone potentially, but not this year.

This is the most realistic scenario I've seen on this thread. I think it would take two of our 4 wing players going down (knocking on my desk as I type) for TT to see significant minutes. Even if just Kyrie went down we would move Seth over to the one and Dawkins would backup all three guard positions with Carrick backing up the 3.

TT could be an impact player in the future especially if Kyrie leaves soon. I see him starting to be a solid contributor in his junior season.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

To be honest, I'm not caught up in who's going to start or how many minutes a player may possibly get. What I would like, regardless of who is on the floor, is the type of chemistry and team unity that was displayed with our National Championship team. Those guys just played unselfishly and supported and encouraged each other to play well...even after turnovers/mistakes you could see them speaking positive encouragement like "hey, let's get the next one-you can do it." Think about the team chemistry 8 miles down the road if you need a comparison to how important team chemistry is. It doesn't matter if you are a starter or not but how well you fit in with all the other pieces on the floor. Bad attitudes, ball hogging, street ballin and only being offensive minded is not going to cut it on a Duke basketball team.

[MisterRoddy]

This is the most realistic scenario I've seen on this thread. I think it would take two of our 4 wing players going down (knocking on my desk as I type) for TT to see significant minutes. Even if just Kyrie went down we would move Seth over to the one and Dawkins would backup all three guard positions with Carrick backing up the 3.

TT could be an impact player in the future especially if Kyrie leaves soon. I see him starting to be a solid contributor in his junior season.

I am pretty sure I put up a very "realistic" situation a page or two back that nobody responded to..

[Cockabeau]

There just no way your gonna keep this kid off the bench by his junior year. TT reminds me of a Paulus/Dockery/Mclure hybrid.
He is the ultimate glue guy. You can't teach defense,leadership and the intangibles he brings.

[greybeard]

For some strange reason I always seem to "get" Greybeard (scary I know) and understand where he is coming from, and sometimes when his typo's are intentional and are his form of humor. So his typo's don't bother me. I think I made need therapy!!

I had not thought about one aspect of his post. Interesting thought. Some kids respond better when they are battling a teammate for playing time. They rise to the challenge and end up as better players.

However, other kids for some reason do not do well in that scenario and end up thinking too much. Those type kids seem to respond better when they know they will get all the PT they want. It is still pressure though, because in that scenario, they have to perform well for the team to perform well. But because they know they will be on the court a lot, they do play freer and end up playing better with less mistakes. Maybe both Plumlees will do better in the scenario.

One good example of the latter scenario imo is Nolan. He played outstanding this year and it seemed part of that was due to the fact there was no threat of going to the bench in favor of a better player. Nolan had to stay on the floor or the team was in trouble. As we all saw he responded to that with one of the biggest jumps in production from one year to the next we have ever seen.

So maybe Miles and Mason are similar to Nolan in that regard and end up not tightning up, making less mistakes, and becoming the interior monsters we all believe they can be. A heck of a lot of talent in those two young men. If K and staff find a way to get them to reach their potential they can be scary good as can the team.

Well put. But a word about Nolan, which fits I think with your take about feeling the pressure etc. I thought Nolan hurt himself too much last year. No. That's the end of the sentence. No spelling errors here folks.

Nolan hurt himself often and seriously last year by taking it to the basket hard and in risky ways no matter what. Now, and I know that this borders on sacrilege, I think that K and especially his minions directed the littles, Singler included, but principally G, and EWill and Nolan to attack the rim hard in lieu of an inside game by the Bigs. I thought Nolan finished HARD whether he needed to or not and that showed what I thought was real immaturity but in light of what you write might well better be understood in hind sight as a guy looking to make standout plays to get or assure playing time.

At any rate, after a couple of wild forays to the basket early in the season, Nolan really settled down and often used his terrific athleticism to create separation 10-5 feet out and then finished deftly with minimum risk with a little hook or bank layup that did not necessarily take him at the rim. He landed in good balance most of the time, was available to beat the ball down the other end, and saved wear and tear on the body. This, in retrospect, might be exactly what you are getting at Boozer.

I think it is a point well taken, especially as we see Duke being loaded at the guard spots. Let's hope these guys go at it but recognize that it's a long career at Duke, with a lot to learn both on and off the court, and that they handle the competition for playing time well.

I think that this is a real challenge for the assistants. Somehow I believe that Carrawell (God, I know that I muffed this spelling but who has the time to check and get it right) is the best coach that they have to keep the young guys from competing themselves out of playing time by too much at risk behavior in the sense that making a splash is the sine quo non for getting or keeping playing time. Carrawell had to work his way up the ladder to get ever increasing responsibilities throughout his career. He always seemed to play within himself, and did not go for the spectacular or risky. He might well have the gravitas to hell these young guys allow themselves time to mature and grow and let the chips fall where they may in terms of playing time for a while.

It would be a shame to see any of them try so hard that they literally shot themselves in the foot.

One last word about movement and improvement, my man Moshe believed that in one to have choice in performing a task the important thing was "the how", not the what. The how is well what do you do with all of yourself to bring the ball into position for shooting and then up through release and in what sequence such that you could stop at any moment and reverse the movement to where you began.

Reversibility to Moshe was proof that you owned a movement and could chose if you wanted to do it differently. It was also proof of alot of other things including balance, a relaxed body even in exursion, etc.

Think Tiger Woods here sports fans, how he could stop in the last third of the downswing and turn out of his stance. Think Mark Jackson on the foul line. That phantom practice shot of his, he did it both ways, not just through extension.

Now, not to beat a dead horse, but there are movements that the Plumlees make that is oh so not reversible, not even in the same universe of reversible. And, that is not because the movements are overly dramatic and involve a prolonged throw of the body into instability as might occur in attacking the basket, which one of course cannot stop. Nope, we are talking here about certain movements of theirs that fail to produce positive results. Personally, I think one of the most awkward times for Miles is when he has it deep with inside position and looks to fake. There is something about the fake that is so, well phony, that it fakes no one and serves only to get Miles completely out of sorts to deliver a protected shot at the rim. This to me is awkward.

Hey, maybe Boozer is right even here. You try to get that shot off against Zman, and you develop some bad habbits. Mayber he'll do better when he does not have to battle a super hero in practice and play in his big shadow on the floor.

Thanks for having my back on this spelling thing, Boozer, and for again pointing to horses, although I oh so like zebras myself. ;)

[MisterRoddy]

There just no way your gonna keep this kid off the bench by his junior year. TT reminds me of a Paulus/Dockery/Mclure hybrid.
He is the ultimate glue guy. You can't teach defense,leadership and the intangibles he brings.

I don't see how you can say all of that about a guy ranked 140th in the nation and hasnt even played collegiately yet. There's no doubt that he will be a big contributor later on in his career but I just doubt it will be as a starter. Seeing as Duke looks to bring in the top recruits for the years to come and how they are on the rise, unless Thornton is severly underrated and plays spectacularly, he is simply a backup option that will start only if we hit a bad spell with missing out on recruits and players leaving early.

[Channing]

There just no way your gonna keep this kid off the bench by his junior year. TT reminds me of a Paulus/Dockery/Mclure hybrid.
He is the ultimate glue guy. You can't teach defense,leadership and the intangibles he brings.

So we went from comparing TT from a Dockery/Duhon/Paul/Paulus hybrid to a Paulus/Dockery/Mclure Hybrid.

On one hand you compare him to Chris Paul, a verified superstar, and on the other you say he is a glue guy (for the record, I do not think Paulus was a glue guy - maybe on a better team he would have been, but he didnt serve that roll at all at Duke).

Have you ever seen TT actually play a game? High School Dockery would have run absolute circles around him without breaking a sweat. This is an open forum and folks have lots of spirited conversation, but you will find you have a lot more credibility when your arguments are well thought out and plausible - neither of which yours are.

A more apt comparison in my mind is Andre Buckner.

[hedevil]

It seems like some people are giving TT alot of praise prior to playing a single college game, however, I don't see why on the flip side there are those who are bashing the kid. Keep in mind that this kid is a future member of our Duke squad/family.

Is he going to comein and shine from day one? Hopefully so, but probably not. Can he develop into a sturdy, reliable, PG who can manage games? Hopefully so, and very well could be. Either way, there has to be a medium between praising a future dukie, and slightly putting him down.

I'm hoping for the best for TT, and think he may surprise some people after K is finished with him. I trust in K, and don't think he recruited TT just for practice.

[jimsumner]

I agree that comparing Thornton to Chris Paul is a bit over the top. But comparing him to Andre Buckner may be just as far off the mark.

Buckner was a very late recruit, signed after the unexpected exodus of '99 with the expectation that he would give classmate Jason Williams someone to practice against.

Tyler Thornton was the D.C. Player of the Year. He has a solid track record in both AAU and high-school competition and was offered a scholarship by Duke before Duke had any committments from the class of 2010.

Why would this remind anyone of Buckner?

I'll not attempt to predict Thornton's future career arc. But I know that Duke did not recruit Thornton to be a four-year practice player and they do not expect him to be a four-year practice player.

Not everyone has to be a prep All-American to be a contributor at Duke. John Smith, Marty Clark, Nick Horvath, Lee Melchionni, David McClure and others didn't set hearts aflutter when they signed with Duke but all made significant contributions to the Duke basketball program in games.

Why assume that Thornton isn't capable of doing at least the same?

[Big Pappa]

So we went from comparing TT from a Dockery/Duhon/Paul/Paulus hybrid to a Paulus/Dockery/Mclure Hybrid.

On one hand you compare him to Chris Paul, a verified superstar, and on the other you say he is a glue guy (for the record, I do not think Paulus was a glue guy - maybe on a better team he would have been, but he didnt serve that roll at all at Duke).

Have you ever seen TT actually play a game? High School Dockery would have run absolute circles around him without breaking a sweat. This is an open forum and folks have lots of spirited conversation, but you will find you have a lot more credibility when your arguments are well thought out and plausible - neither of which yours are.
A more apt comparison in my mind is Andre Buckner.

Could not agree more. Not only did you switch your comparison from CP3 to McClure which makes no sense, you said he was going to be an All-American. Like Steven said, have you even seen the kid play?

In another thread you talked about how you "know Coach K" and how you have studied him for 25 years. Do you know Coach K personally? What does "I've studied him for 25 years" mean; that you have watched Duke for a long time?

It's one thing to make these outrageous claims with some sort of evidence. It is a whole other thing to do it with evidence that is completely unverifiable, like how you "know Coach K" or that TT brings "defense, leadership and intangibles."

Please at least try to find some shred of viable evidence before your next post.

[gumbomoop]

There just no way your gonna keep this kid off the bench by his junior year. TT reminds me of a Paulus/Dockery/Mclure hybrid.
He is the ultimate glue guy. You can't teach defense,leadership and the intangibles he brings.

I think you meant to say "no way to keep him on bench....." Although the essence of the discussion here has been about his frosh year, several posters have looked further down the road. I'm guessing - not so wildly, I think - that most posters think that KI is likely, if sadly, to have taken his game to the NBA by TT's junior year; and if so, most are likely to think that yes, TT will play a whole lot more by then. How much more will depend on whether his reputation-coming-in on D proves justified, and whether he can become a modest threat on O.

Best I can tell, your reference to his leadership and intangibles are, yes, part of his HS rep, so we can all agree that those qualities increase his chances for PT, esp by his junior year, and, we all hope, even sooner. That he might prove as "ultimate" a glue guy as DMc or LT, well, that's a pleasing prospect, too. It's just that right now, that's TBD, not quite the certainty you've asserted.

[airowe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4crmzyDV10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3ufsnO9_7E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RebRzIUbELk

[MisterRoddy]

It seems like some people are giving TT alot of praise prior to playing a single college game, however, I don't see why on the flip side there are those who are bashing the kid. Keep in mind that this kid is a future member of our Duke squad/family.

Is he going to comein and shine from day one? Hopefully so, but probably not. Can he develop into a sturdy, reliable, PG who can manage games? Hopefully so, and very well could be. Either way, there has to be a medium between praising a future dukie, and slightly putting him down.

I'm hoping for the best for TT, and think he may surprise some people after K is finished with him. I trust in K, and don't think he recruited TT just for practice.

I am gonna assume that your post was directed towards me?

I in no way was trying to bash the guy...I was just saying, if things keep going Duke's way, he probably won't start. I'm not saying there's no possible way because, like I mentioned, he could be a complete diamond in the rough, but if he performs to the talent of his rating, well, if you look at the last 10 national champions and their point guards, they were all highly rated coming out of high school (not sure about Green and Mcnamara though?)

That being said, I am glad to have him as a Dukie and will be looking forward to watching his development over his career. GO DUKE!

[FireOgilvie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4crmzyDV10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3ufsnO9_7E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RebRzIUbELk

The first two are basically Quinn Cook highlight videos.

[airowe]

The first two are basically Quinn Cook highlight videos.

I know. I didn't watch them until after I posted. :o

[MisterRoddy]

The first two are basically Quinn Cook highlight videos.

Well, perhaps if Kyrie were to be a one-and-done, these 2 could be battling it out for the starting job in 2011-2012? :D

[oldnavy]

This is the most realistic scenario I've seen on this thread. I think it would take two of our 4 wing players going down (knocking on my desk as I type) for TT to see significant minutes. Even if just Kyrie went down we would move Seth over to the one and Dawkins would backup all three guard positions with Carrick backing up the 3.

TT could be an impact player in the future especially if Kyrie leaves soon. I see him starting to be a solid contributor in his junior season.

I agree, but I emphasized impact player. I am pretty sure you meant impact during game time, but I think if he is as good of a defender as reported, then he will have an immediate impact on the team. Having to go against someone who can truly defend day after day in practice will impact KI and Nolan in a good way. I made a post earlier about how Curry most likely made an impact on this past years team by challenging the defense of our starters with his offensive play. Well I believe that TT could have the same type impact from the other side this year, but with the added potential to play in games. A lot of my thoughts are just speculation, but I feel fairly confident in saying Curry helped our D this past year, and TT will help our O this year on the practice court, and now both will be contributors come game time.

[Kedsy]

Somehow I believe that Carrawell (God, I know that I muffed this spelling but who has the time to check and get it right) is the best coach that they have to keep the young guys from competing themselves out of playing time by too much at risk behavior in the sense that making a splash is the sine quo non for getting or keeping playing time.

Actually, you spelled "Carrawell" perfectly. I was just joking around with the spelling thing (well, mostly, anyway); don't get too self conscious about it.

I also like the reversible concept. It makes a lot of sense. Very interesting.

[Kedsy]

I in no way was trying to bash the guy...I was just saying, if things keep going Duke's way, he probably won't start. I'm not saying there's no possible way because, like I mentioned, he could be a complete diamond in the rough, but if he performs to the talent of his rating, well, if you look at the last 10 national champions and their point guards, they were all highly rated coming out of high school (not sure about Green and Mcnamara though?)

PGs on last 10 National Champions
(NOTE: I'm using the RSCI composite recruiting rankings)

2001: Jason Williams (#3) or Chris Duhon (#7)
2002: Steve Blake (#55)
2003: Gerry McNamara (#38)
2004: Taliek Brown (#10)
2005: Ray Felton (#3)
2006: Taurean Green (NOT in top 100)
2007: Taurean Green (NOT in top 100)
2008: Russell Robinson (#31)
2009: Ty Lawson (#5)
2010: Jon Scheyer (#28)

So only four of the ten were ranked in the top 25 coming out of high school. Putting that aside, I don't know that looking at high school rankings of national champion PGs is the best litmus test in determining whether Mr. Thornton will eventually start at Duke. Give the kid some time to prove himself.

[greybeard]

Actually, you spelled "Carrawell" perfectly. I was just joking around with the spelling thing (well, mostly, anyway); don't get too self conscious about it.

I also like the reversible concept. It makes a lot of sense. Very interesting.

I know I spelled his name properly. I decided to check, which was a good thing. :eek:

When I'm engrossed in work and take a break, it often is here and something strikes me and I start: a terrible speller to begin with, when my mind is winding like that I get what I call dyslexic about how to spell elemental words that even I will usually spell correctly. Mean no disrespect to the Board and its standards; it's always been a blind spot.

Didn't take your remarks as snide. Thanks for clarifying. I'm trying, Kedsy, which is scary, right! :o

[CDu]

PGs on last 10 National Champions
(NOTE: I'm using the RSCI composite recruiting rankings)

2001: Jason Williams (#3) or Chris Duhon (#7)
2002: Steve Blake (#55)
2003: Gerry McNamara (#38)
2004: Taliek Brown (#10)
2005: Ray Felton (#3)
2006: Taurean Green (NOT in top 100)
2007: Taurean Green (NOT in top 100)
2008: Russell Robinson (#31)
2009: Ty Lawson (#5)
2010: Jon Scheyer (#28)

So only four of the ten were ranked in the top 25 coming out of high school. Putting that aside, I don't know that looking at high school rankings of national champion PGs is the best litmus test in determining whether Mr. Thornton will eventually start at Duke. Give the kid some time to prove himself.

One minor quibble:
2008: I wouldn't have identified Robinson as the PG for KU in that season. They played more like we did, in which Robinson (27.5mpg), Chalmers (30mpg), and Collins (23.8mpg) shared the PG duties. Chalmers (#11) and Collins (#14) were as much the PG as Robinson (who was a decent ballhandler and defensive specialist), and both would qualify as top-25 PG recruits. PG play was a huge strong suit of that team, along with defense and quality post play.

And the next point is not a quibble, but Scheyer was a #28 recruit but was not considered a PG coming out of high school (or even coming into his junior year of college).

[Kedsy]

One minor quibble:
2008: I wouldn't have identified Robinson as the PG for KU in that season. They played more like we did, in which Robinson (27.5mpg), Chalmers (30mpg), and Collins (23.8mpg) shared the PG duties. Chalmers (#11) and Collins (#14) were as much the PG as Robinson (who was a decent ballhandler and defensive specialist), and both would qualify as top-25 PG recruits. PG play was a huge strong suit of that team, along with defense and quality post play.

And the next point is not a quibble, but Scheyer was a #28 recruit but was not considered a PG coming out of high school (or even coming into his junior year of college).

Yes, I remember that Kansas team, which had a wealth of combo guards. Collins didn't start, though, and I always saw Chalmers as more of a shooting guard who handled the ball a lot, so I chose Robinson.

Regarding your second point, the original statement to which I was responding was, "if you look at the last 10 national champions and their point guards, they were all highly rated coming out of high school," and if that's what you're trying to respond to, the 2010 answer is Jon Scheyer. No matter how he was recruited, he was the PG of a national champion. Who else would you choose in that table for 2010 Duke? (Plus the original statement didn't say they were highly rated point guards coming out of high school, just that they were highly rated.)

[CDu]

Yes, I remember that Kansas team, which had a wealth of combo guards. Collins didn't start, though, and I always saw Chalmers as more of a shooting guard who handled the ball a lot, so I chose Robinson.

A fair opinion. Chalmers was clearly the better shooter of the two. But I'd say he handled it as much as Robinson, if not more. Thus, I wouldn't really call Robinson the PG - just the less offensive-minded guard. And when Collins was on the floor with Robinson (and note that Collins played nearly as much as Robinson even though he didn't start), Collins definitely handled it more.

It just seemed like cherry-picking to select Robinson over the other two when the other two played basically as much (if not more) at PG, so I felt it fair to note.


Regarding your second point, the original statement to which I was responding was, "if you look at the last 10 national champions and their point guards, they were all highly rated coming out of high school," and if that's what you're trying to respond to, the 2010 answer is Jon Scheyer. No matter how he was recruited, he was the PG of a national champion. Who else would you choose in that table for 2010 Duke? (Plus the original statement didn't say they were highly rated point guards coming out of high school, just that they were highly rated.)

Which is why I said the second point wasn't a quibble. I was just commenting and further adding to your point.

[Kedsy]

A fair opinion. Chalmers was clearly the better shooter of the two. But I'd say he handled it as much as Robinson, if not more. Thus, I wouldn't really call Robinson the PG - just the less offensive-minded guard. And when Collins was on the floor with Robinson (and note that Collins played nearly as much as Robinson even though he didn't start), Collins definitely handled it more.

It just seemed like cherry-picking to select Robinson over the other two when the other two played basically as much (if not more) at PG, so I felt it fair to note.

Fair enough. It might have been a little cherry picking.


Which is why I said the second point wasn't a quibble. I was just commenting and further adding to your point.

Oh, OK. I misunderstood you (I thought you were saying it was more than a quibble). Sorry.

[MisterRoddy]

PGs on last 10 National Champions
(NOTE: I'm using the RSCI composite recruiting rankings)

2001: Jason Williams (#3) or Chris Duhon (#7)
2002: Steve Blake (#55)
2003: Gerry McNamara (#38)
2004: Taliek Brown (#10)
2005: Ray Felton (#3)
2006: Taurean Green (NOT in top 100)
2007: Taurean Green (NOT in top 100)
2008: Russell Robinson (#31)
2009: Ty Lawson (#5)
2010: Jon Scheyer (#28)

So only four of the ten were ranked in the top 25 coming out of high school. Putting that aside, I don't know that looking at high school rankings of national champion PGs is the best litmus test in determining whether Mr. Thornton will eventually start at Duke. Give the kid some time to prove himself.

Why did you make 25 the magic number? (especially seeing as 2 of them just missed it and one not far behind. Wouldnt a top 50 pg count as highly regarded? say, Ryan Harrow who ESPN has ranked 39? So that means there's 7 out of 10 in the top 50..8/10 in the top 55... and all of them except for Green (whose team had a great front court) are a far cry from the 140 on Rivals and unranked on ESPN.
Also, what I meant by it is that Duke is looking to be championship contendors for years to come and I just dont think it's likely that Thornton would start on a championship caliber team (and I dont think its likely because I looked at those previous point guards). Thats not to say we definitely will not have a Florida-esque frontcourt when/if Thornton starts therefore making his chances greater, you never know (or like I keep saying, unless he is better than we all expected) but the chances are unlikely.

I hope the best for this guy, and like I said, I cant wait for this kid (and the rest of our incoming class) to suit up next year. It should be a great year for us Dukies.

(btw yes I did post the original post but I changed my username with the help of -jk :) )

[Kedsy]

Why did you make 25 the magic number? (especially seeing as 2 of them just missed it and one not far behind. Wouldnt a top 50 pg count as highly regarded? say, Ryan Harrow who ESPN has ranked 39? So that means there's 7 out of 10 in the top 50..8/10 in the top 55... and all of them except for Green (whose team had a great front court) are a far cry from the 140 on Rivals and unranked on ESPN.
Also, what I meant by it is that Duke is looking to be championship contendors for years to come and I just dont think it's likely that Thornton would start on a championship caliber team (and I dont think its likely because I looked at those previous point guards). Thats not to say we definitely will not have a Florida-esque frontcourt when/if Thornton starts therefore making his chances greater, you never know (or like I keep saying, unless he is better than we all expected) but the chances are unlikely.

Well, first of all, I wouldn't put too much credence in the ESPN rankings. According to RSCI (compilation from several top rankings services), Harrow is #23. RSCI hasn't released its spring rankings yet, but I doubt Harrow dropped all the way to 39.

Second, you can use whatever number you want, but in my opinion anything outside the top 10 (maybe top 5) is a complete crapshoot. An example of recent Duke and UNC players between 11 and 50:

Casey Sanders, #16
Sean Dockery, #21
Jackie Manuel, #25
Marcus Ginyard, #29
MIchael Thompson, #30
Bobby Frasor, #31
Adam Boone, #33
Eric Boateng, #39

They were all decent players (some more than others), and were all reasonably well-regarded coming out of high school, but there were lots and lots of players outside the top 50 who were way better. (And, yes, I realize most of the above players weren't PGs, but I don't see why PG is different from other positions for the purposes of this discussion.)

I guess it depends on what you're trying to prove. Your original point was that Tyler Thornton wouldn't start at Duke because the last ten national champions had "highly regarded" point guards and he wasn't highly regarded. Putting aside the fact that your argument is sort of a non sequitur (Duke only won 2 of the 10 championships, but they had a PG every year), if you're saying it's unlikely that Tyler T can outperform Bobby Frasor or Adam Boone or Eric Boateng then (a) I disagree; and (b) I don't understand your point.

[BD80]

How about the thought that Ty just completed his AP Stats course?

This kid sounds to me like a real leader. No matter how much PT he gets in games the next 2 years, he will be a key player in his junior and senior years.

After a year of having relatively quiet, soft-spoken or reserved individuals, it will be interesting for the staff to have Ty and Kyrie to work with.

[Big Pappa]

How about the thought that Ty just completed his AP Stats course?

This kid sounds to me like a real leader. No matter how much PT he gets in games the next 2 years, he will be a key player in his junior and senior years.

After a year of having relatively quiet, soft-spoken or reserved individuals, it will be interesting for the staff to have Ty and Kyrie to work with.

I have also heard good things about his academics but I don't think that completion of an AP course correlates with good leadership skill.

[MisterRoddy]

Well, first of all, I wouldn't put too much credence in the ESPN rankings. According to RSCI (compilation from several top rankings services), Harrow is #23. RSCI hasn't released its spring rankings yet, but I doubt Harrow dropped all the way to 39.

Second, you can use whatever number you want, but in my opinion anything outside the top 10 (maybe top 5) is a complete crapshoot. An example of recent Duke and UNC players between 11 and 50:

Casey Sanders, #16
Sean Dockery, #21
Jackie Manuel, #25
Marcus Ginyard, #29
MIchael Thompson, #30
Bobby Frasor, #31
Adam Boone, #33
Eric Boateng, #39

They were all decent players (some more than others), and were all reasonably well-regarded coming out of high school, but there were lots and lots of players outside the top 50 who were way better. (And, yes, I realize most of the above players weren't PGs, but I don't see why PG is different from other positions for the purposes of this discussion.)

I guess it depends on what you're trying to prove. Your original point was that Tyler Thornton wouldn't start at Duke because the last ten national champions had "highly regarded" point guards and he wasn't highly regarded. Putting aside the fact that your argument is sort of a non sequitur (Duke only won 2 of the 10 championships, but they had a PG every year), if you're saying it's unlikely that Tyler T can outperform Bobby Frasor or Adam Boone or Eric Boateng then (a) I disagree; and (b) I don't understand your point.

The Point guard posiion is arguably the most important position on the floor. Many say that the first step in building an elite squad starts with getting a good point guard. The belief that the point guard position is so important is partly what my argument is based on.

My original intended point is that, If things keep going Duke's way (ie. high finishes, top recruits, etc.) and he is as good as his ranking (140th), then this kid probly wont start. I am pretty sure I said that earlier. Now, things going Duke's way would be a little something like this: Finishing high next year, final four or better, getting Austin Rivers, finishing high 2011-2012, getting a top recruit point guard (such as Rose). Now, I'm not saying all of this will happen but this is an example of things going Duke's way, and, IMO, Thornton would be likely to not start if that scenario happens (unless of course, hes bttr than we all expected). And seeing how things have gone lately, I wouldnt bet against a scenario similar to this.<-- Thats pretty much my argument.

Now, I dont see how you got Frasor and Boateng as they are completely irrelevant to the conversation as I was talking about a lack of underrated pgs leading their team to the national championship (other than Green), not overrated players that really didnt do much for their team. So really not sure how they tie in.

I am hoping that Thornton can prove me wrong and I would be delighted to see this kid lead us ot a championship in the future, I am just saying that its unlikely.

[gumbomoop]

1. Rumor - some with first-hand knowledge say it's more than a rumor - TT's first strength is D, and his strength is strong.

2. Fact - no poster has ever ever denied that K likes guys who play serious D.

3. Inference - TT will get a chance to play some his first year.

4. Debate - maybe over word "some": my guess is 5-6 mpg 1st 1/2 of season; late-season no telling, but likely depends on whether he proves his strength is strong.

5. Prediction - I think [that we all think] we're going to like TT a lot over next 4 years.

6. Entitled [a small pun there....] - as we are, do we really deserve such good fortune?

[Kedsy]

Now, I dont see how you got Frasor and Boateng as they are completely irrelevant to the conversation as I was talking about a lack of underrated pgs leading their team to the national championship (other than Green), not overrated players that really didnt do much for their team. So really not sure how they tie in.

You said the past ten national champions have all had highly regarded point guards. I showed that only four of the ten had PGs rated in the top 25. You said why top 25, wouldn't top 50 still be highly regarded? I said top 50 doesn't mean anything; look at this list of top 50 players just from Duke and UNC and you'll see why having a top 50 player isn't really any different from any other number.

That's how Frasor (who was a PG) and Boateng got into it and why they are not irrelevant to the conversation.

However, if we really want to talk about things that aren't relevant, I don't understand what the past ten national champions have to do with whether Tyler Thornton will someday start for Duke. It's way too early to tell, and whether Steve Blake or Taurean Green or Jon Scheyer was a top 25 recruit or a top 50 recruit will have nothing to do with it.

Bottom line, Tyler Thornton may or may not start at some point in his Duke career. In my view, the relative strength of his high school recruiting ranking will not have any bearing on whether he does or he doesn't.

[Bob Green]

Tyler Thornton may or may not start at some point in his Duke career. In my view, the relative strength of his high school recruiting ranking will not have any bearing on whether he does or he doesn't.

I agree with Kedsy 100 percent. Tyler Thornton is a quality recruit, regardless of his high school recruiting ranking, and I'm ecstatic he will be playing at Duke. A couple of points worth considering:

1. He has a reputation as a defensive specialist and Coach Krzyzewski is a defense first coach.
2. He played in the very competitive WCAC against top notch point guards such as Quinn Cook and Kendall Marshall.

I'm looking forward to Tyler Thornton playing at Duke the next four seasons.

[MisterRoddy]

You said the past ten national champions have all had highly regarded point guards. I showed that only four of the ten had PGs rated in the top 25. You said why top 25, wouldn't top 50 still be highly regarded? I said top 50 doesn't mean anything; look at this list of top 50 players just from Duke and UNC and you'll see why having a top 50 player isn't really any different from any other number.

That's how Frasor (who was a PG) and Boateng got into it and why they are not irrelevant to the conversation.

If you only want to talk about your original point, Tyler Thornton may or may not start at some point in his Duke career. In my view, the relative strength of his high school recruiting ranking will not have any bearing on whether he does or he doesn't.


I don't see how a school can have a top 50 recruit and not call them highly rated. They are irrelevant because the argument having to do with the top 50 was about the lack of overachieving National Championship point guards (except for Green), not underachieving players so they really didnt have anything to do with that argument.

Look, I agree with you too, I was just going on a limb and saying that, if recent history prevails, he probably won't start on a national champion Duke squad. In no way did I say he definiely won't start because nobody can tell the future. I was just voicing my opinions and trying to cool off everybody who said that he was gonna be an immediate impact player and All-American because thats expecting too much. Although I did say it was unlikely, I did not say it was impossible at all as, like I repeatedly said, I hope he develops into an excellent player and I cant wait to see him in a Blue Devil uni. It's not like you had to go out of your way to prove me wrong because I hope he does great too. I believe the only person that can prove me wrong is Tyler Thornton and I hope he does.

[airowe]

Officially, officially a Duke Blue Devil. Got my acceptance letter today lls. Duke class of 2014 wassup. Lol about 2 hours ago via UberTwitter

[MisterRoddy]

Officially, officially a Duke Blue Devil. Got my acceptance letter today lls. Duke class of 2014 wassup. Lol about 2 hours ago via UberTwitter

Excellent news!

We should make a new thread entitled

-> Blue Devil Recruits: In 140 Characters or Less

[gumbomoop]

Look, I agree with you too.... I was just voicing my opinions and trying to cool off everybody who said that he was gonna be an immediate impact player and All-American.

I think there's actually quite a bit of agreement re TT. I think your reference to "everybody" goes overboard, as I can only recall a single poster who, in something of a rash moment, predicted immediate impact and AA.

We're almost all on the same page here, or at least not real far apart. And the TT-vibes are good vibes. I have neither authority nor inclination to stifle debate re TT; but we want to debate real issues, not a single hyperbolic suggestion.

[MisterRoddy]

I think there's actually quite a bit of agreement re TT. I think your reference to "everybody" goes overboard, as I can only recall a single poster who, in something of a rash moment, predicted immediate impact and AA.

We're almost all on the same page here, or at least not real far apart. And the TT-vibes are good vibes. I have neither authority nor inclination to stifle debate re TT; but we want to debate real issues, not a single hyperbolic suggestion.

If you read it again, I didnt say "everybody" was saying that. In the context, it just means everybody who said that. There was more than 1 poster that gave Tyler Thornton really big expectations.

My argument is done, I'm glad Ty will be a Dukie and can't wait for him to develop under Coach K

[oldnavy]

Officially, officially a Duke Blue Devil. Got my acceptance letter today lls. Duke class of 2014 wassup. Lol about 2 hours ago via UberTwitter

Well I must admit surprise here. I would have thought that you were much older by your well thought out posts and knowledge of Duke Basketball. This is a compliment btw....

Congratulations!! BOL!

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Well I must admit surprise here. I would have thought that you were much older by your well thought out posts and knowledge of Duke Basketball. This is a compliment btw....

Congratulations!! BOL!

Not him(airowe) but Tyler send that message on twitter.

[airowe]

Not him(airowe) but Tyler send that message on twitter.

Look up. I think there's a joke going over your head.