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YmoBeThere
12-04-2008, 10:14 PM
in the Top 20. Coached of course by none other than Herb Sendek.

Just sayin'...

Bluedog
12-04-2008, 10:23 PM
in the Top 20. Coached of course by none other than Herb Sendek.

Just sayin'...

Herb Sendek is a quality coach that got the shaft from NC St fans who, I think, unfairly targeted him. Second round of NCAA tourney wasn't good enough for them continually, but I'm sure they'd like to get back to that. Az St has a good chance to win the Pac 10 this year, I think. Although the Pac 10 is terrible. I'm glad to see Sendek doing well and cheer for Az St to take down the likes of UCLA and USC. Boateng is also averaging 9 mpg and 1.3 ppg, in case you were curious.

The only undefeated Pac 10 team? Stanford. They haven't beaten any great opponents, but still, they've won all the games they've played.

doctorhook
12-04-2008, 10:24 PM
Looks like Boateng is still getting limited PT with modest contributions. Still hope the best for him.

gep
12-04-2008, 10:42 PM
Herb Sendek is a quality coach that got the shaft from NC St fans who, I think, unfairly targeted him.

I kinda miss Herb Sendek in the ACC... :rolleyes:

Jumbo
12-04-2008, 10:44 PM
I think Jason Evans just swallowed his tongue ...

jv001
12-05-2008, 07:40 AM
I think Jason Evans just swallowed his tongue ...

My bad, but I don't get it?

CDu
12-05-2008, 09:12 AM
Herb Sendek is a quality coach that got the shaft from NC St fans who, I think, unfairly targeted him. Second round of NCAA tourney wasn't good enough for them continually, but I'm sure they'd like to get back to that. Az St has a good chance to win the Pac 10 this year, I think. Although the Pac 10.

I understand why State effectively ran Sendek off (technically he quit, but the writing was on the wall). With Sendek, State had improved from abysmal to solid, but they had plateaued as a middle of the pack program that couldn't beat Duke or UNC. State fans wanted to return to the glory days of the program, and Sendek wasn't going to get them there. He did his job - he brought the program back to respectability. But he wasn't the guy to take State to that next level.

The mistake State made was that they misjudged the outside interest in the program. That led them to take Lowe, who had no collegiate coaching experience and a dubious NBA coaching record. It may eventually work out with Lowe, but that remains to be seen. He still has to show that he can recruit consistently well enough to compete with the big boys.

It could also be argued that they may have had unrealistic expectations at this point in time. With Duke and UNC firmly entrenched as elite programs, it's probably a lot more difficult for State to compete in terms of recruiting. It may be that the challenge of consistently competing with Duke and UNC is a goal that is several years away.

State probably needed to make a move to go from upper-mediocre to top-tier program. It just remains to be seen whether they got the right guy to replace Sendek.

davekay1971
12-05-2008, 10:46 AM
Generally agree with CDu. From the perspective of the NCSU fans, they aren't satisfied with being the 3rd best program in the Triangle, any more than we would be if we were a year-in-year-out middle of the pack ACC team and NCAA tournament bubble team, while State and Carolina were top 10 programs with national title hopes every year. NCSU fans have enough memory to remember that State was the first premier hoops program in North Carolina. They feel like there's no reason they should settle for being behind Duke and North Carolina, and, when you get down to it, why should they? Sendek had apparently hit a plateau with State being respectable, but still squarely behind the two 800 pound gorillas down the road. State took the risk to move on. I'm sure Sendek will continue to do well at Az St...he's a good coach, something which the Pack fans I know readily acknowledge. Their hope is that Lowe will bring in the next level of talent which will allow them to compete on an even basis with Carolina and Duke. His recruiting classes for 2009 is ranked number 19 nationally...and remember he's still in the hunt for Wall and Favors. The jury's definitely out on Lowe, but he has a legitimate shot at bringing State to the level that their fans had come to believe Sendek would never reach.

jimsumner
12-05-2008, 01:55 PM
"From the perspective of the NCSU fans, they aren't satisfied with being the
3rd best program in the Triangle, any more than we would be if we were a year-in-year-out middle of the pack ACC team and NCAA tournament bubble team, while State and Carolina were top 10 programs with national title hopes every year."

Living in Raleigh and having lots of NCSU connections, I understand the angst. But the top two programs in the Triangle have arguably been the two top programs in the country over the last two decades. So closing that gap is a pretty tough order.

It is possible for all three programs to be nationally elite. It happened several times in the middle to late 1980s for example. Still, not easy.

FWIW, I've written a lot about Case over the years and there is no doubt that he raised the bar in the mid-South and greatly increased fan interest in the sport. But UNC finished second in the NCAA Tournament the season before Case came down to Raleigh and Duke had a 22-2 season earlier that decade. State hired Case in an effort to catch up to Carolina and Duke. They certainly got that wish.

I agree with CDu that State thought that getting a Barnes, Calipari, even Wright would be easier than it turned out to be. Butting heads with the ACC behemoths may be more appealing to a young up-and-comer than an established coach at a top-tier program.

gotham devil
12-05-2008, 02:55 PM
It certainly helped that Sendek infamously hired a hs coach, Pera, to bring in James Harden, a lottery pick.

CLT Devil
12-05-2008, 04:47 PM
I kept thinking to myself last year 'what if Boateng hadn't transferred...' but it looks like he's a bust, same as Chris Burgess and Michael Thompson...although I do think we could have won the Nat Champ if Thompson hadn't transferred, he would have done a better job defending Okafor than 'Tricky Nicky' Horvath when everyone else had fouled out.

This poses the question; These three guys were all supposed to be elite players coming out of HS. Is it the level of competition they played against in HS that made them look so good (ala Burgess in Utah) or does their game not translate to the college level? These days players are in so many AAU and All Star leagues its much harder to hide a product of weak competition. Basically, who in the world of these 'experts' decided Boateng and Burgess were blue chip prospects?

Carlos
12-05-2008, 04:54 PM
Actually, Burgess was from Southern California.

Additionally, most guys earn their rankings not from HS play, but from AAU play and it should be noted, that with a few really strong exceptions, the structure in AAU basketball is greatly different than college basketball.

Duvall
12-05-2008, 04:55 PM
I kept thinking to myself last year 'what if Boateng hadn't transferred...' but it looks like he's a bust, same as Chris Burgess and Michael Thompson...although I do think we could have won the Nat Champ if Thompson hadn't transferred, he would have done a better job defending Okafor than 'Tricky Nicky' Horvath when everyone else had fouled out.

This poses the question; These three guys were all supposed to be elite players coming out of HS. Is it the level of competition they played against in HS that made them look so good (ala Burgess in Utah) or does their game not translate to the college level? These days players are in so many AAU and All Star leagues its much harder to hide a product of weak competition. Basically, who in the world of these 'experts' decided Boateng and Burgess were blue chip prospects?

Burgess was from Los Angeles, Thompson was from Chicago (the suburbs, I think). I don't think lack of HS competition was the problem with evaulating either player. My guess is that big men are just tough to project.

CDu
12-05-2008, 05:35 PM
I kept thinking to myself last year 'what if Boateng hadn't transferred...' but it looks like he's a bust, same as Chris Burgess and Michael Thompson...although I do think we could have won the Nat Champ if Thompson hadn't transferred, he would have done a better job defending Okafor than 'Tricky Nicky' Horvath when everyone else had fouled out.

This poses the question; These three guys were all supposed to be elite players coming out of HS. Is it the level of competition they played against in HS that made them look so good (ala Burgess in Utah) or does their game not translate to the college level? These days players are in so many AAU and All Star leagues its much harder to hide a product of weak competition. Basically, who in the world of these 'experts' decided Boateng and Burgess were blue chip prospects?

Burgess played in Southern California and Thompson played near Chicago. They both probably had pretty good high school comp. I think a big part of it is that it's very difficult to accurately evaluate big men.

For one thing, there's just so few guys who are that size and functional in high school that it's hard to tell whether the big man is just dominant against smaller/inferior post players. In major college bball, you weed out a lot of the fluff and most teams have functional big men of at least some size (6'8") or more.

Further, big guys develop at different rates than smaller guys. Your typical 6'2" guard probably was a guard his whole life and played guard-like basketball his whole life. And he probably didn't have to adjust to his body as much as a big guy does. Big guys have to work a lot harder for their coordination and their strength to catch up to their height. So you more prospects in big guys and more surprises than you do with guards.

CLT Devil
12-05-2008, 05:35 PM
I forgot Burgess was from Cali. I just remember a coach from Utah telling him he let down the entire Mormon nation for not going to his school.

I guess that wouldbe the answer; a big man can dominate so much easier because the height advantage plays out really well in HS. Seems like more big men are busts than others. I dunno, maybe because they're prodded into playing basketball because of their size at a young age, as opposed to smaller athletes that play for love of the game or else find a sport they love more.

jimsumner
12-05-2008, 06:37 PM
Burgess was similar to Shavlik Randolph in that both peaked ratings-wise in their junior seasons and then plummeted. By the time Burgess showed up at Duke, he was ranked well behind Brand and Battier.

But still, he had some success at Duke. He actually started ahead of Battier at the beginning of the '98-'99 season and had a 15-point, 16-rebound game (IIRC) against Fresno State in Alaska.

It's difficult to talk about Chris Burgess without talking about his father, the ultimate little-league dad. And quite the promoter. Recruiting gurus still tell tales of late-night phone calls and faxes extolling Chris's virtues. And he did have some.

Still, Chris looked like a borderline NBA prospect as a junior at Utah. But then he suffered a major back injury and that was that.

Michael Thompson was never as highly regarded as Burgess and never produced at anywhere near that level, even at Northwestern, where he played a half-season before a variety of off-court and medical issues ended his playing career. But Duke always regarded Thompson as a project. Same with Boateng. They had higher hopes with Burgess.

rockymtn devil
12-05-2008, 10:55 PM
Herb Sendek is a quality coach that got the shaft from NC St fans who, I think, unfairly targeted him. Second round of NCAA tourney wasn't good enough for them continually, but I'm sure they'd like to get back to that. Az St has a good chance to win the Pac 10 this year, I think. Although the Pac 10 is terrible. I'm glad to see Sendek doing well and cheer for Az St to take down the likes of UCLA and USC. Boateng is also averaging 9 mpg and 1.3 ppg, in case you were curious.

The only undefeated Pac 10 team? Stanford. They haven't beaten any great opponents, but still, they've won all the games they've played.

I agree with this and would add that, IMO, Herb's bland personality made him an easy target. He simply wasn't the larger-than-life personality that his mentor, Pitino, is, and I think people incorrectly assumed that he wasn't passionate about taking State to the next level. I can remember watching press conferences and thinking "does this guy know this is a press conference about a game that just happened and not an instructional video for coaches?" Boring and over-analytical isn't going to work when you live in the shadow of two giants of the sport. I always liked Herb and hope he has success at ASU, which appears likely.

Jumbo
12-06-2008, 02:07 PM
My bad, but I don't get it?

In the early part of the decade, when Herb was at State, Jason routinely advocated his firing. It became a bit of a running gag.