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gw67
12-04-2008, 08:28 AM
With most ACC teams about ½ through their OOC schedule, my early impressions are as follows:
• Best Teams – UNC, Duke and Wake are clearly the top teams in the conference. The Heels are an outstanding all around team; the Devils are deep and the best defensive team in the conference; and Wake may have the most talent. There is a large gap between these teams and the next best teams (Clemson, Miami).
• Worst Teams – Virginia. After Virginia it is tough to judge but Georgia Tech and Florida State did not look good during the Challenge.
• Best Players – Hansbrough, Lawson, Singler, Johnson, Teague, Vasquez, Lawal, Rice, McClinton, Douglas, Vassallo and Booker.
• Biggest Disappointments – Virginia Tech was supposed to be a very good team this year but, so far, they have played just well enough to lose the three games against decent opponents. Most of us set the expectation bar high for Henderson and, through the first eight games, he has not delivered. Not much was expected of the Maryland big men but they not even met the low expectations.
• Biggest Improvements – Johnson, Teague and Lawal have improved significantly and are among the top ten players in the ACC. Smith has also improved with expanded playing time.
• Top Transfers – Trapani and McGowan. Trapani is a good all around player who will get All ACC recognition when Rice graduates. I had never heard of McGowan before this year but he is a tough rebounder who can score down low.

The ACC is 67-14. I expect the ACC to do well in their remaining OOC games. The top remaining OOC games are as follows:

Duke – Xavier (win)
Duke – Davidson (win)
Florida State – Florida (loss)
Florida State – Pitt (loss)
Georgia Tech – USC (loss)
Miami – Kentucky (win)
N.C.State – Marquette (loss)
N.C.State – Florida (loss)
Virginia – Xavier (loss)
Wake – BYU (win)

gw67

whereinthehellami
12-04-2008, 08:55 AM
Biggest Disappointments – Virginia Tech was supposed to be a very good team this year but, so far, they have played just well enough to lose the three games against decent opponents.

I agree VT has not played as well as I would have thought but they are missing JT thompson to injury and I think that has cost them the two close games. They are not a deep team and have struggled filling that fifth position with quality minutes.

roywhite
12-04-2008, 09:40 AM
Wake is an interesting team. gw...you indicate that they "may have the most talent"...more so than UNC?

Johnson, Teague, and Aminu are very impressive, and the team has good speed and quickness overall. I still question whether they will be consistent, both on offense and defense. Is Ish Smith steady enough and can he hit foul shots? Can the team overall limit its turnovers? Is Gaudio able to mold a Top 10-15 team with these pieces? I can see the Deacs beating just about anybody, but losing a few, especially in close games.

gw67
12-04-2008, 10:18 AM
Wake is an interesting team. gw...you indicate that they "may have the most talent"...more so than UNC?

The Heels have a number of talented players and they have one of the better coaches. At this time, they are a better team than Wake; however, I think Aminu, Johnson and Teague are pro prospects and McFarland and Woods are not far behind. Add in Williams, who is a top defensive player and finisher on a break, and Smith, who is a very good playmaker, and you have a team that may have the most raw talent of any team in the ACC, IMO.

I see them finishing 3rd and going to the NCAAT. They would be outstanding next year if everyone returned but I suspect the NBA draft will torpedo that possibility.

gw67

Ders24
12-04-2008, 10:37 AM
The Heels have a number of talented players and they have one of the better coaches.

gw67

I think coaching here is key - it will be interesting to see what direction the team takes with Gaudio and how he is able to maximize their talent. Wake Forest came up briefly with a discussion I had with a former coach who thought that right now they are not in any way making the best use of what they have.

BlueintheFace
12-04-2008, 10:51 AM
Gani Lawal is an absolute beast. He is going to be 1st Team All-ACC next year once Hanstravel leaves...

Olympic Fan
12-04-2008, 11:29 AM
The ACC is 67-14. I expect the ACC to do well in their remaining OOC games. The top remaining OOC games are as follows:

Duke – Xavier (win)
Duke – Davidson (win)
Florida State – Florida (loss)
Florida State – Pitt (loss)
Georgia Tech – USC (loss)
Miami – Kentucky (win)
N.C.State – Marquette (loss)
N.C.State – Florida (loss)
Virginia – Xavier (loss)
Wake – BYU (win)

gw67

Duke-Georgetown doesn't make this list?

How about Boston College-Providence?

Clemson's got South Carolina on the road and Alabama at home ... I also think FSU-Western Kentucky (which knocked off Louisville) is significant. Georgia Tech-Vanderbilt, Georgia Tech at Alabama and Georgia-Ga Tech are significant.

And if Duke-Davidson is on the list, why not NC State at Davidson?

gw67
12-04-2008, 11:50 AM
Wow! I missed a bunch. I just looked at the ACC site combined schedule and should have looked at the individual school schedules. Those additional games are interesting. I see Duke beating the Hoyas, BC beating Providence, Clemson winning both of their games, FSU beating WKU, and GT going 1-2 against the SEC teams. I haven't seen NC State play but I expect them to lose to Davidson.

gw67

Diddy
12-04-2008, 12:35 PM
A huge name was missing from Most Improved: Deon Thompson. Not only is he the most improved player in the conference, by a huge margin, but he looks like a lock for most improved player nationally. He is a stud down low. Right now he looks like Hans Lite, and that is only because they do not feed him the ball like they do for Hans (nor do the refs give him a free pass like Hans).

Another impression that I have is that Maryland may very well contend for worst team in conference. I agree that UVA looks like the big pig in that catagory, because they are a wasteland devoid of any serious talent. That Frosh Landsburg looks OK, but since he is the only show in town, it is hard to know. Both UVA and GT may be looking for another coach soon. If Hewlitt could secure Favors, it would definitely earn him a reprieve, but short of that I think he may be gone. Same at UVA. They won a few games with the previous coaches kids, but as they left the program the team regressed, in a huge way. Missing on Ed Davis (superstud in waiting at UNC) who grew up in Charlottsville's Shadow, probably doomed UVA.

Maryland looks awful. That win vs MSU no longer looks impressive. MSU had no business being ranked in the top 15. Without Suton, they are weak down low. Their preseason ranking was largely based on the assumption that the guards could make up for losing Neitzel (they can't, or at least, haven't), and on Delvon Roe (Frosh) regaining his explosiveness after Knee surgery. And he hasn't. It usually takes two years after his type of surgery. Heck, MSU might not be a top 25 team right now, as evidenced by UNC beating them by 35 last night, in a game that was not nearly as close as the score indicated. UNC really called off the Dogs last night, relatively early. They could've won by 50. So Maryland's victory over MSU is really lessened in importance. They have lost, and usually badly, to every other decent team that they have played, and I forsee that trend continuing. Man I can't wait to really paste them in MD this year. (one game at a time I know, but anticipation is the best part of pleasure).

UNC looks great, WFU is comming on (but they will get decimated by the draft this year, so they had better do something this year). Duke is progressing nicely. Hendo will come on, and if not, we will still be pretty good and capable of the FF. On O Hendo has been a dissappointment, no doubt. But the rest of his game, ie rebounding and D, have been much better than we had hoped. Still a dissappointment overall, but not much of one. Also, it is something that can and will be fixed soonish.

Overall, it is exactly as everyone predicted. UNC is head and shoulders abover everyone right now. Duke is better than everyone else, and Wake and Miami look dangerous. After that it is a big step down. 4-5 NCAA bids may be all the conf can hope for, especially if Duke and UNC have dominant records.

gw67
12-04-2008, 01:32 PM
A huge name was missing from Most Improved: Deon Thompson. Not only is he the most improved player in the conference, by a huge margin, but he looks like a lock for most improved player nationally.

I forgot to include Thompson who has made big strides this year; however, he is not even the most improved player in the ACC. Gani Lawal has gone from 7.2 ppg/3.5 rpg last year to 22.2 ppg/11.2 rpg. We are all entitled to an opinion but to insinuate that Thompson is as good as Hansbrough is a joke, IMO.

With regard to some of your other comments, I expect Maryland to end up 7-9 place in conference play. I didn't see the Gonzaga game but the effort against Georgetown was comparable to their horrible effort against American last year. Don't jump to conclusions regarding Michigan State. Izzo is a great coach and I expect him to right the ship and for them to be competitive in the Big Ten and a Top 25 team in the polls and RPI by the end of the regular season.

Henderson is a good player. Other than foul shooting, I've not seen any obvious improvements in his game this year. I admit that I've seen very few games on TV so he may have improved his ballhandling and defense. My point was that I and others expected him to play like an All American this year and, at least till now, he has come up short. That certainly doesn't mean that he won't have a terrific remainder of the year. I am simply providing early impressions based on about 1/2 the OOC schedule.

gw67

MarkD83
12-04-2008, 02:13 PM
I have gone back and watched tape of several of the games this year in order to see what role Gerald is playing while on the floor. Overall, as fans we tend to look at points as a gauge of how a player is playing. Right now instead of looking to score Gerald seems to be watching what is needed and filling in the gaps. For example against Purdue he had 9 rebounds, 5 assists and 2 blocks. Not bad stats but the points were not what we as fans would want to see.

On offense, since the big men are playing well so far it appears that Gerald has been trying to stay on the perimeter for the "spot-up" jumpers. He also has been the guard that gets back on defense to keep the floor balanced rather than crashing the boards.

On the defensive end he appears to be concentrating on help side defense and rebounding. As a result he is not always the one sneaking out on breaks to get the easy layups.

As a result his offense numbers are down but his rebounding, defense and assists are looking good.

Bob Green
12-04-2008, 02:59 PM
• Best Players – Hansbrough, Lawson, Singler, Johnson, Teague, Vasquez, Lawal, Rice, McClinton, Douglas, Vassallo and Booker.


I would add Jon Scheyer to the list. For starters, he is better than Vasquez. Vasquez is good and he is required to be "the man" for Maryland so that makes him standout. However, Scheyer is a better overall ball player. If Vasquez played at Duke, he would not start over Jon Scheyer. I believe the same is true about Vassallo.

gumbomoop
12-04-2008, 04:03 PM
I would add Jon Scheyer to the list. For starters, he is better than Vasquez. Vasquez is good and he is required to be "the man" for Maryland so that makes him standout. However, Scheyer is a better overall ball player. If Vasquez played at Duke, he would not start over Jon Scheyer. I believe the same is true about Vassallo.

Amen to BG on Scheyer, who is still, and will forever be, I suspect, much underrated. Arguments about his defense have been thrashed through on previous boards, but I'm guessing some of his doubters on this score are coming around. He's a really smart defender: he knows where the ball is going, so he plays passing lanes well--all over the court--and thus gets the occasional stolen pass and, equally important, the defensive flick that stops a play. He makes up a slight quickness deficiency with smartness, awareness. Offensively he's a scorer, not just, nor even primarily a "shooter," excellent passer. That it always surprises me when he screws up says to me that he's consistently solid-to-excellent in many phases of the game. He and Singler, right now (come on, come on G), are our go-to guys.

gw67
12-04-2008, 04:14 PM
Bob – I respect your opinion and, if you put me on the spot, I would say that Scheyer is my favorite player on this year’s team. There is no intent on my part to disparage his play in this post. He is a very good all around player and is one of the top 15 players in the ACC, IMO. However, stating that he is better than Vasquez is like saying he is better than Singler. Kyle scores more, rebounds more, gets more assists and is an equally good defensive player. Similarly, Vasquez leads the Terps in minutes played, scoring, rebounding, assists and steals while having the burden of carrying the team. Jumbo and others on this board have properly pointed out that Jon is a very good defensive player. Well, I have watched Vasquez play probably 70 times over the past three years and he is both an excellent defensive player and an exceptional passer. He has stopped Lawson, Rice and others with his defensive play. A key to last night’s victory over Michigan was his stellar defensive play against their high scorer, Manny Harris, who was held to 15 points. I’ve always considered Brad Davis the best passer I’ve seen play in college and Vasquez often approaches his level. Vasquez is not perfect by any means. He is an average shooter and he needs to take better care of the ball although his a/to is better than the a/to for either Singler or Scheyer. I know that he is not well liked on this board but since I started the thread I figured that I ought to toss out my opinion for what it is worth.

gw67

just_wondering
12-04-2008, 05:49 PM
For some reason Greivis hasn't won over the hearts of the Maryland fans. Because of that he doesn't have the weight of expectations on his shoulder. I expect him to have a monster year because he can play like it doesn't matter. Very slowly he is making certain players better too. Look for Dino Gregory to improve his stats as the year progresses as Greivis boosts Gregory's confidence in himself.



Bob – I respect your opinion and, if you put me on the spot, I would say that Scheyer is my favorite player on this year’s team. There is no intent on my part to disparage his play in this post. He is a very good all around player and is one of the top 15 players in the ACC, IMO. However, stating that he is better than Vasquez is like saying he is better than Singler. Kyle scores more, rebounds more, gets more assists and is an equally good defensive player. Similarly, Vasquez leads the Terps in minutes played, scoring, rebounding, assists and steals while having the burden of carrying the team. Jumbo and others on this board have properly pointed out that Jon is a very good defensive player. Well, I have watched Vasquez play probably 70 times over the past three years and he is both an excellent defensive player and an exceptional passer. He has stopped Lawson, Rice and others with his defensive play. A key to last night’s victory over Michigan was his stellar defensive play against their high scorer, Manny Harris, who was held to 15 points. I’ve always considered Brad Davis the best passer I’ve seen play in college and Vasquez often approaches his level. Vasquez is not perfect by any means. He is an average shooter and he needs to take better care of the ball although his a/to is better than the a/to for either Singler or Scheyer. I know that he is not well liked on this board but since I started the thread I figured that I ought to toss out my opinion for what it is worth.

gw67

pfrduke
12-04-2008, 06:48 PM
Bob – I respect your opinion and, if you put me on the spot, I would say that Scheyer is my favorite player on this year’s team. There is no intent on my part to disparage his play in this post. He is a very good all around player and is one of the top 15 players in the ACC, IMO. However, stating that he is better than Vasquez is like saying he is better than Singler. Kyle scores more, rebounds more, gets more assists and is an equally good defensive player. Similarly, Vasquez leads the Terps in minutes played, scoring, rebounding, assists and steals while having the burden of carrying the team. Jumbo and others on this board have properly pointed out that Jon is a very good defensive player. Well, I have watched Vasquez play probably 70 times over the past three years and he is both an excellent defensive player and an exceptional passer. He has stopped Lawson, Rice and others with his defensive play. A key to last night’s victory over Michigan was his stellar defensive play against their high scorer, Manny Harris, who was held to 15 points. I’ve always considered Brad Davis the best passer I’ve seen play in college and Vasquez often approaches his level. Vasquez is not perfect by any means. He is an average shooter and he needs to take better care of the ball although his a/to is better than the a/to for either Singler or Scheyer. I know that he is not well liked on this board but since I started the thread I figured that I ought to toss out my opinion for what it is worth.

gw67

I haven't watched him play as much as you, so I can't really comment on his defense. I will take you at your word that he is an excellent defender.

On offense, though, his raw numbers are inflated by heavy usage. Only Jeff Teague has used a greater percentage of his team's possessions so far this year than Vasquez. Thus far in his career, including thus far this season, his efficiency on offense has been decidedly mediocre. He misses a lot of shots and he commits a lot of turnovers (the latter he has admittedly improved upon thus far this season, down to a more respectable 1 TO per 5 possessions used). In fact, from a statistical standpoint, his effect on Maryland's offense this season has just a slight net positive - his personal offensive rating is 101.78, and Maryland's is 98.86.

Now, obviously there's a certain level of skill and talent that it takes to be a high usage player. There's a reason that he's permitted to use nearly 30% of the team's possessions when he's on the court. He's a guy who can get his shot off a lot, and he's a dynamic playmaker who is asked to make difficult plays. Lesser players (typically) do not shoulder this responsibility. But, most of the other high usage players in the ACC thus far have been more productive on offense than Vasquez - through Sunday, the following players used more than 24% of their team's possessions: Teague, Vasquez, Costner, Singler, Jeff Allen, Rice, McClinton, McCauley, Maurice Miller, Toney Douglas, Delaney, Lawson, Landesberg, Booker, Lawal, Vassallo, and Rakim Sanders. In that group, only Miller (who's played the fewest minutes of that group) and Sanders are less efficient than Vasquez.

Jon Scheyer has never been asked to shoulder the kind of usage that Vasquez does. Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't, it's tough to know. But my gut tells me that if he did, he would be at least as efficient as Vasquez, if not more so.

Diddy
12-04-2008, 07:36 PM
I forgot to include Thompson who has made big strides this year; however, he is not even the most improved player in the ACC. Gani Lawal has gone from 7.2 ppg/3.5 rpg last year to 22.2 ppg/11.2 rpg. We are all entitled to an opinion but to insinuate that Thompson is as good as Hansbrough is a joke, IMO.

With regard to some of your other comments, I expect Maryland to end up 7-9 place in conference play. I didn't see the Gonzaga game but the effort against Georgetown was comparable to their horrible effort against American last year. Don't jump to conclusions regarding Michigan State. Izzo is a great coach and I expect him to right the ship and for them to be competitive in the Big Ten and a Top 25 team in the polls and RPI by the end of the regular season.

Henderson is a good player. Other than foul shooting, I've not seen any obvious improvements in his game this year. I admit that I've seen very few games on TV so he may have improved his ballhandling and defense. My point was that I and others expected him to play like an All American this year and, at least till now, he has come up short. That certainly doesn't mean that he won't have a terrific remainder of the year. I am simply providing early impressions based on about 1/2 the OOC schedule.

gw67


With regards to Lawal, I don't agree. Thompson has dramatically improved his numbers on a team that returned plenty of scoring, and solid rebounding. Even with Hans's injury, Thompson is having to fight for PT, and he is earning it.

Lawal plays on a truly horrible team. Of course his numbers have gone up. He went from a role player on a middling team to The Man on a very bad team. I am not sure if his numbers have improved because he improved, or because he is getting a lot more touches because the rest of the team is bad. And they are bad. Remember what I said about Favors. If they don't get him, the coach is DONE.

As for MSU, I don't doubt that the ship will be righted, so long as they get Suton back. I didn't quibble with their long term prospects, only that right now they don't look like a top 15 team. Roe isn't 100 percent yet, and won't be this year. The guards have more work to do than thought in the preseason, and their best big is sidelined. They do not closely resemble the team prognosticators thought they would be in the preseason. They may/probably will be good come March. But they aren't good now. Maryland beat a mediocre team that is nowhere near the top 5. Against other quality teams, they have looked awful. I hope that continues.

You should watch Hendo on TV before passing judgement. His O is broken, no doubt. But he has hit a few threes and is playing great otherwise. Once his shot starts falling, I think he will improve. But until then, I agree that he has dissappointed.

gw67
12-04-2008, 08:39 PM
Spurred on by a post by olympic fan, I checked the remaining OOC schedules for each ACC team. At present, the ACC is 67-14 against OOC opponents. If my math is correct, there are 81 OOC games remaining. I see UNC and the Devils running the table and Wake and Clemson having an outside chance of doing the same. Assuming 3 unexpected losses, I estimate that the ACC will go 68-11 in their remaining OOC games for a total of 135-25. This sets the stage for good RPI ratings for all teams who can finish at least 8-8 in conference play.

As the one who started this thread, I read the responses to some points I made and then followed up. I read the recent responses but I lack the desire to continue the give and take re Scheyer and Henderson. I like both players and want to see them both do well. I made my points regarding the comparison of Scheyer and Vasquez, and the early play of Henderson and stand by them.

gw67

Wander
12-04-2008, 09:56 PM
gw - I think Scheyer might be better than Vassallo or Douglas. I've only seen them once each though this year, so I won't argue it.

But Vasquez belongs ahead of Scheyer, good call. I can't stand the little dude, but he could very well be the most underrated player, nationally, in the country. If he would just have the discipline to not shoot so many threes (which he sucks at), he could be an All-American. Other than that, the best thing Scheyer had over Vasquez was being elite in not turning the ball over - which is no longer the case this year, unfortunately.

I agree with your whole thing though. Well done sir.

SMO
12-04-2008, 10:11 PM
I'm disappointed in the ACC in the wake of the ACC/Big 10 Challenge. I think DBR made the argument a few weeks back that the ACC has an edge on the Big East in that the ACC has few, if any truly dog teams. FSU and GA Tech's losses combined with UVA's woes make me question whether they are any better than the basement of the Big East.

I agree that Duke, UNC, and Wake right now look head and shoulders above the rest of the league. Of course, tight games seem to materialize quickly and not necessarily where you would expect them once league play starts so you never know how the ACC will look come March.

gw67
12-05-2008, 11:39 AM
The second half of the OOC schedule for ACC teams gets kicked off this weekend with ten games against an interesting group of opponents. A quick take on these games is below:
• NC State @ Davidson – I would like to see the Pack win but they are untested and Davidson is playing well (loss)
• Vanderbilt @ Georgia Tech– Tech is hurting in the backcourt and looked awful against Penn state but they should have enough to defeat Vandy at home. (win)
• Duke @ Michigan - I expect the Devils to win this return engagement going away. (win)
• Miami @ Kentucky – This year’s Kentucky is not the Kentucky of old. The Canes pick up a road win. (win)
• Bucknell @ Wake Forest – Bucknell was blown out by the Terps. Wake should have an easy win. (win)
• Boston College @ Massachusetts – UMass is not strong this year. BC picks up a road win. (win)
• Liberty @ Clemson – Liberty took down Virginia but Clemson is not Virginia (win)
• Virginia Tech vs. Navy – Tech should have a bounc back in the BB&T Classic. (win)
• Florida @ Florida State – I expect the Gators to win easily. (loss)
• George Washington @ Maryland – This is another BB&T Classic game and the Terps haven’t played well in this mini tournament or at MCI (Verizon) Center for a long time. Further, GW has whipped up on them the few times they have played recently. GW is down this year but there are a bunch of bad omens for Terps. (win)

I figure 8-2 but it could be 6-4.

gw67

roywhite
12-05-2008, 12:20 PM
gw, you are an excellent poster---lots of info, good research, you back up your opinions, and remain civil to those that disagree. Two thumbs up. :)

sagegrouse
12-05-2008, 12:28 PM
gw, you are an excellent poster---lots of info, good research, you back up your opinions, and remain civil to those that disagree. Two thumbs up. :)


a. Don't let it go to your head, and

b. Every day is an audition

sagegrouse

gw67
12-05-2008, 12:56 PM
Thanks for the nice words fellas. The posters who raised issues about some points I made in this thread had very valid positions. I started to respond to some of the posts but I felt very uncomfortable about being perceived as negative towards two youngsters who I root for. I’ve been a fan of both Scheyer and Henderson since reading articles about them during their senior years in HS - Scheyer for leading a team of five Jewish youngsters to the state title; and Henderson for being the son of a player who played for the Celtics when I was still a fan and for his love of golf. I felt down when Henderson was beat up in the press after the Hansbrough incident and last year when Scheyer was relegated to the bench. Both are major contributors this year and I hope that they only get better.

gw67

DukeDevilDeb
12-05-2008, 01:33 PM
Wow! I missed a bunch. I just looked at the ACC site combined schedule and should have looked at the individual school schedules. Those additional games are interesting. I see Duke beating the Hoyas, BC beating Providence, Clemson winning both of their games, FSU beating WKU, and GT going 1-2 against the SEC teams. I haven't seen NC State play but I expect them to lose to Davidson.

gw67

And Duke-Michigan?

jimsumner
12-05-2008, 01:46 PM
"I felt down when Henderson was beat up in the press after the Hansbrough incident and last year when Scheyer was relegated to the bench."

Jon wasn't exactly relegated to the bench and 28.3 mpg was nothing to feel down about.

IMO.

gw67
12-05-2008, 02:21 PM
Jim - As often is often the case, I cut my thoughts short. During the summer prior to last year, some folks took continuing shots at Paulus and Scheyer and some of us defended Scheyer's play until Jumbo came to our side. Scheyer had started as a freshmen but was sent to the bench at the start of the season. At that point, I felt down for the youngster but as you point out he prospered as a sixth man.

gw67

riverside6
12-05-2008, 02:21 PM
One note on the UF @ FSU game on Sunday...

While FSU stunk it up at Northwestern it was more a product of Northwestern's system than it was FSU's talent level. I actually think the Noles will play with Florida and make it a tight game, especially since it's in Tallahassee.

If you watched the FSU/Northwestern game, FSU couldn't figure out the Wildcats 1-3-1 defense (very similar to Michigan's which was used to defeat UCLA).

Classof06
12-05-2008, 03:00 PM
I think the ACC stacks up similar to the way it was last year. I think Carolina is the best team. And while you can lose anytime you step out on the floor, I think the only ACC team capable of beating UNC is Duke.

I think Duke is the 2nd best team followed by Wake/Miami and Clemson not far behind those two. On a given night, I think Wake, Miami and Clemson are capable of beating Duke (like last year), but Duke is definitely the 2nd best team.

Of course, it's the first week of December so nothing is set in stone..

jimsumner
12-05-2008, 03:03 PM
"While FSU stunk it up at Northwestern it was more a product of Northwestern's system than it was FSU's talent level"

A heck of a system. Made an athletically superior FSU team look like a bunch of guys who just met at the Y and decided to form a team.

Or maybe FSU just stunk it up on their merits.

ACCBBallFan
12-05-2008, 03:22 PM
Only real surprise so far has been Va Tech who had a couple of last second shots against them to lose:

1 UNC ACC 5788
4 Duke ACC 5344
16 Wake Forest ACC 3851
24 Clemson ACC 3106
32 Miami-Fllost to tOUS ACC 3318
33 Maryland beat Mich St ACC 2782
47 BC beat UAB,lost to SLU ACC 2618
54 FSU beat Calif, lost ot NW ACC 2519
66 Va Tech ACC 2421
71 GA Tech lost to Penn St ACC 2372
101 NC St ACC 2068
102 UVA lost to Liberty ACC 2064

There are still a ton of OOC to play and hten a few more during ACC play:

Dec 6 NC State at Davidson FSNS/NESN 12:00
Dec 6 Vanderbilt at Georgia Tech FSNS/NESN 2:00
Dec 6 Bucknell at Wake Forest 2:00
Dec 6 Duke at Michigan ESPN 3:30
Dec 6 Miami at Kentucky ESPN 5:30
Dec 6 Boston College at Massachusetts 8:30
Dec 7 Liberty at Clemson 3:00
Dec 7 Florida at Florida State FSN 6/8
Dec 7 Maryland vs. George Washington TBA
Dec 7 Virginia Tech vs. Navy TBA
Dec 9 Virginia Tech at Georgia RSN 7:00
Dec 10 Bryant at Boston College 7:00
Dec 12 Florida International at Miami 7:30
Dec 12 Delaware State at Maryland CSN 8:00
Dec 13 Winston Salem State at NC State 2:00
Dec 13 South Carolina State at Clemson 4:00
Dec 13 Florida State at Georgia State 4:00
Dec 13 Oral Roberts at North Carolina ESPN2 6:00
Dec 14 USC Upstate at Boston College 1:00
Dec 14 Robert Morris at Miami 1:00
Dec 14 Illinois-Chicago at Georgia Tech 2:00
Dec 14 Longwood at Virginia Tech 2:00
Dec 14 Wright State at Wake Forest FSN 4:00
Dec 16 Tennessee Tech at Florida State FSN-FL 7:00
Dec 16 North Florida at Clemson 7:30
Dec 17 East Carolina at NC State 7:00
Dec 17 Longwood at Virginia 7:00
Dec 17 UNC-Asheville at Duke ESPN2 7:30
Dec 17 Georgia State at Georgia Tech 7:30
Dec 18 Charleston Southern at Florida State FSN-FL 7:00
Dec 18 Evansville at North Carolina ESPN 7:00
Dec 19 Wake Forest at Richmond ESPNU TBA
Dec 20 North Carolina vs. Valparaiso ESPNU 2:00
Dec 20 Lipscomb at NC State 2:00
Dec 20 Duke vs. Xavier CBS 2:00
Dec 20 Providence at Boston College NESN 4:00
Dec 20 Auburn at Virginia FSNS/CSN 4:00
Dec 20 Virginia Tech vs Columbia in Holiday Festival TBA
Dec 20 Georgia Tech at Pepperdine TBA
Dec 21 Pittsburgh at Florida State FSN 5:30
Dec 21 Virginia Tech vs Marist/St. John's in Holiday Festival TBA
Dec 22 Marquette at NC State ESPNU 7:00
Dec 22 American at Maryland CSN 7:30
Dec 22 Wake Forest at East Carolina CBS-CS 8:00
Dec 22 Georgia Tech at Southern California FSN 10:30
Dec 23 Maine at Boston College 1:00
Dec 23 Hampton at Virginia 7:00
Dec 27 Bryant at Maryland 2:00
Dec 27 Miami at St. John's 12:00
Dec 28 Florida State vs. Western Kentucky FSN-FL 4:00
Dec 28 Rutgers at North Carolina FSN 7:45
Dec 29 Loyola-Md. at NC State 7:00
Dec 29 San Francisco at Boston College 7:00
Dec 29 Virginia Tech at Charleston Southern FSNS/CSN 7:00
Dec 30 Clemson at South Carolina FSNS/FSN-FL 7:00
Dec 30 Radford at Wake Forest 7:00
Dec 30 Elon at Maryland 8:00
Dec 30 Tennessee State at Georgia Tech 8:30
Dec 31 Sacred Heart at Boston College 2:00
Dec 31 North Florida at Miami FSN-FL 2:00
Dec 31 Towson at NC State 2:00
Dec 31 Loyola-Md. at Duke ESPN2 4:00
Dec 31 North Carolina at Nevada-Reno ESPN2 10:00
Jan 3 North Carolina Central at Miami Sun Sports 1:00
Jan 3 Texas A&M-Corpus Christi at Florida State 2:00
Jan 3 Xavier at Virginia CSN 2:00
Jan 3 Georgia Tech at Alabama FSNS/Sun Sports 3:00
Jan 3 UNC-Charlotte at Maryland CSN 4:00
Jan 3 NC State at Florida CBS 4:00
Jan 3 Wake Forest at Brigham Young 8:00
Jan 3 East Carolina at Clemson TBA

Dr. Rosenrosen
12-05-2008, 03:31 PM
A heck of a system. Made an athletically superior FSU team look like a bunch of guys who just met at the Y and decided to form a team.

Like the USA Olympic teams of the early 2000s...

Olympic Fan
12-05-2008, 03:39 PM
I pretty much agree with GW's excellent analysis of this weekend's games ... my one caveat is about Florida State.

Funny thing, FSU has beaten Florida twice in a row, including in 2006-07 when Florida won its second straight national title (and FSU narrowly missed the year before). FSU won by 14 in Gainesville a year ago. I think with this year's game in Tallahassee, FSU has to be given a pretty good chance. Florida is older this year, but FSU has upgraded their talent.

The other game I'll be interested to see will be NC State at Davidson (I think the game is actually on campus and not in Charlotte). A year ago, when everything was going wrong for the Pack, they managed to pull out a one-point win over Davidson in Raleigh.

That was a period when Davidson was playing a succession of good teams close (including UNC, Duke and UCLA). I think beating some quality teams in the NCAA changed their mental outlook. They've got more status this year and can actually hope for an NCAA at-large bid (assuming they get upset in the SC Tourney) if they can win games like this and Tuesday against West Virginia (or later vs. Purdue or Duke).

State thinks they are much better this season. Maybe ... but eight of their first nine opponents are non-competitive. This will be their only test until they play Marquette at home on Dec. 22 (they also play at Florida on Jan.3). I'll sit up and take notice if they win this game ... otherwise, going 8-1 into the Marquette game won't mean very much.

Bob Green
12-05-2008, 04:08 PM
I started to respond to some of the posts but I felt very uncomfortable about being perceived as negative towards two youngsters who I root for.

Anyone who interprets your posts as negative lacks reading comprehension skills. Thanks for the informative posts and positive contribution to the community.