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View Full Version : Duke v Carolina TODAY- Would We Win?



BlueintheFace
12-03-2008, 10:49 PM
UNC is currently in the process of embarrassing MSU. In fact, they have embarrassed every team they have played this year. Duke is just coming off a dominant performance against Purdue. It is still early, but we are starting to see trends and personalities for these teams, so.....

If Duke were to play Carolina today, would they win?

roywhite
12-03-2008, 10:51 PM
Duke would be the underdog, but definitely could win.

jacone21
12-03-2008, 10:59 PM
Duke would play a LOT better defense than the Spartans are playing. Duke would need to avoid the ridiculous unforced turnovers that the Spartans are making. They're just throwing the ball to tarheels left and right. Duke wouldn't try to run run run with the heels. That was a pitiful game plan and pitiful execution by the Spartans. Somebody was overrated a bit. That said, it will take a great game, but hell yeah Duke will beat them! It's called defense.

jipops
12-03-2008, 11:02 PM
As long as Roy is coaching, Duke always has a chance. But this year Duke looks unlikely to get a W vs. the dreaded heels. There is just way too much talent, depth, experience and balance over there to overcome. It's almost a joke, they're just so much better than everyone else in college ball this year, partially due to the fact that the college level is as watered down as we've ever seen it.

Ben63
12-03-2008, 11:04 PM
I do believe Carolina is the better team this season, an would probably beat us 7-8 times out of 10. But we most certainly can win. Rivalries are tough to call anyway, and a game RIGHT NOW would be no different.

Jumbo
12-03-2008, 11:10 PM
Blueintheface,
This isn't directed at you, but the board in general. I don't understand the obsession with Carolina recently.

Well, I take that back. Obviously, I understand the obsession so far as the rivalry is concerned. But, darn, we don't play Carolina until Feb. 11th, and there are a lot more important things to worry about than the Heels between now and then.

Yes, they are an excellent team. Yes, They are the favorite to win the national title. But they aren't any more dominant compared to the rest of the country than a host of other teams over the last decade. Things have a way of evening out. Wasting so much time worrying about whether they'll go undefeated, who can beat them, whether we could beat them right now -- it just seems like a futile exercise to me.

KenTankerous
12-03-2008, 11:15 PM
With the way Kentucky took apart WVU last weekend, and WVU ending Duke's season last year, and with Duke beating down Purdue, if I follow the op logic, it follows that Kentucky could beat Carolina, no? But last weekend shoots that right out the salad spinner, doesn't it?

Next play is a real popular call around here. I think it'd be a good idea to concentrate on THIS play. Carolina will come. And Duke may well win. But that is a long way from Lafayette.

juise
12-03-2008, 11:15 PM
I think we could take them today... they'd be a little fatigued after whooping up on MSU so badly. They'd never know what hit 'em. ;)

Seriously, though... UNC looks scary good. I hate to be cliche, but you can pretty much throw out the records when these rivals meet. I want Duke to be on a trajectory toward becoming the best team in March... who would win today is not as important to me.

Duvall
12-03-2008, 11:21 PM
Blueintheface,
Yes, they are an excellent team. Yes, They are the favorite to win the national title. But they aren't any more dominant compared to the rest of the country than a host of other teams over the last decade.

It's early, of course, but I'm just not sure this is true. There have been years when we've seen similar gaps between the top two or three teams and the rest of the country, but I honestly can't recall the last time there was one team that stood alone like this. We shall see.


Wasting so much time worrying about whether they'll go undefeated, who can beat them, whether we could beat them right now -- it just seems like a futile exercise to me.

Well, yes. Most of fandom consists of futile exercises, though, and rivalries are no exception.

dukelifer
12-03-2008, 11:22 PM
Blueintheface,
This isn't directed at you, but the board in general. I don't understand the obsession with Carolina recently.

Well, I take that back. Obviously, I understand the obsession so far as the rivalry is concerned. But, darn, we don't play Carolina until Feb. 11th, and there are a lot more important things to worry about than the Heels between now and then.

Yes, they are an excellent team. Yes, They are the favorite to win the national title. But they aren't any more dominant compared to the rest of the country than a host of other teams over the last decade. Things have a way of evening out. Wasting so much time worrying about whether they'll go undefeated, who can beat them, whether we could beat them right now -- it just seems like a futile exercise to me.

I have watched them early to see if there is an obvious weakness. They are playing D and their O has always been outstanding. Lawson is playing under control and Hansbrough is able to turn it on at well. Many of us were curious how they would look with all the off season drama of the big three having to go back to college etc. I think it is clear they are not going to have any drama or problems on this team. Roy is not going to go apoplectic any time soon and bench the starters in the middle of a game. Last year they had some troubles away from the Dean dome. Not this year. The only thing to do now is simply wait until the end of the regular season and see who catches up - which should happen. This is a team that is not going to get better because they are not going to get pressed and may get a bit bored. So I am done with Carolina until Duke plays them. I now know what I need to know about them.

BlueintheFace
12-03-2008, 11:24 PM
Blueintheface,
This isn't directed at you, but the board in general. I don't understand the obsession with Carolina recently.

Well, I take that back. Obviously, I understand the obsession so far as the rivalry is concerned. But, darn, we don't play Carolina until Feb. 11th, and there are a lot more important things to worry about than the Heels between now and then.

Yes, they are an excellent team. Yes, They are the favorite to win the national title. But they aren't any more dominant compared to the rest of the country than a host of other teams over the last decade. Things have a way of evening out. Wasting so much time worrying about whether they'll go undefeated, who can beat them, whether we could beat them right now -- it just seems like a futile exercise to me.

Well, part of it is just entertainment value. When the best team in the country is 8 miles away, you play these little games.

Should we care right now? Probably not.

Does the Duke Basketball team and staff care right now? Definitely not

Is it interesting to talk about? Of course!
our rivals are blowing quality teams out of the water by 20-30+ points, and we are slowly rounding in to a heck of a team (fingers crossed). How can you not make these comparisons?

Jumbo, I disagree with you about the level of their dominance. The disparity in talent level between Carolina and the rest of the country appears to be a fixture for the season... they are just so far out in front, and that is with quite a few injuries. Barring more health issues, I believe this Carolina team can easily be compared to the repeat Florida team, Duke 1999, or UNLV 1991 (which obviously doesn't guarantee a championship). I do not foresee the discrepancy "evening out," but I do see Duke closing the gap as much as anyone.... hence the interest in this topic.

plus, this is a new question...
Other more relevant questions like:
Should we post up G more?
Should we work E-Will into the rotation more?
Should we run more set plays?
How can we better free G to use his athleticism?
How can we improve ball movement?
What is the best lineup to have on the floor with Greg?
etc...

...are addressed many times over after most games... or at least that is how it feels to me.

smklin
12-03-2008, 11:40 PM
duke would have no chance. i hate to say it but this year is carolina's year. they're absolutely stacked. they can go 10 deep and just run duke into the ground.

dukelifer
12-03-2008, 11:52 PM
duke would have no chance. i hate to say it but this year is carolina's year. they're absolutely stacked. they can go 10 deep and just run duke into the ground.
I wonder what the Vegas odds are now for UNC to win it all? Perhaps the govt should put up the 700billion- for an absolute lock that is.

BlueintheFace
12-03-2008, 11:55 PM
I wonder what the Vegas odds are now for UNC to win it all? Perhaps the govt should put up the 700billion- for an absolute lock that is.

The Big Three in Detroit should have put all the chips on Carolina tonight. Then we wouldn't have such a mess on capitol hill over this auto industry bailout... everyone wins ... except Izzo. He hasn't won in a while.

JDev
12-04-2008, 12:10 AM
I do agree with Jumbo in that there is an overabundance of UNC talk, but I do enjoy talking basketball in general. To answer the question at hand: I know that UNC is good and certainly right now the best team in the country. I think that by March several teams will close that gap, including Duke, UConn, and Pitt, among others. That being said, I do not know if they are as good as they appear to be, if that makes sense. Their two main pre-conference tests have not been what they were once thought to be. Notre Dame was playing less than a day after an absolute battle with Texas, and had no practice days to prepare for UNC, and you will not beat them without that. Meanwhile, UNC exerted very little effort in pummelling a mediocre (at best) Oregon team. And MSU is clearly not as good as their preseason ranking, if the Maryland loss did not show that already. In addition, they were without their starting center. MSU will probably still win enough games in an average, or below average Big Ten. They will not beat Purdue in the two or potentially three times they play, and they will drop some other games, probably at Michigan and some others. They will probably be a 6 or 7 seed that bows out in the first round. UNC's schedule from here on out until conference play is garbage, so who knows.

Heelkiller1
12-04-2008, 12:50 AM
To early to tell,but as a die hard Duke fan,Duke would win and send those silly holes back to Crapel hill kicking pebbles and mumbuling to them selfs .

Lulu
12-04-2008, 01:19 AM
This poll makes me sick.

NYC Duke Fan
12-04-2008, 04:34 AM
This poll makes me sick.

There are too many issues in the world today to get sick over....this should not be one of them....Relax a little

umdukie
12-04-2008, 04:48 AM
It hurts me to say this as a Duke fan but Carolina at full strength(with a healthy Ginyard) is capable of beating every other team in the country by 20 points without too much problem as long as they stay focused this year. That's the harsh truth.

Hansbrough>>>>>>>>>>>Zoubs
Lawson>>>Smith
Thompson>Thomas
Ellington=Scheyer
Henderson=Green

Result: We would be lucky to only lose by single digits.

Lulu
12-04-2008, 05:54 AM
Well I'm very wary of posting this here now, and if I really wanted to help Duke I'd probably head over to IC with this (I really don't even think that's a joke), but if you guys think you can hop off the Carolina bandwagon for a moment there's a poll over at ESPN about whether we can beat them just once this season. It's currently 49%-51%, with Duke losing.

I understand that most people here would prefer to be right at any cost, but Duke could use a little support from their fans (and the ESPN poll is pretty much anonymous).

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/index

gumbomoop
12-04-2008, 08:02 AM
It hurts me to say this as a Duke fan but Carolina at full strength(with a healthy Ginyard) is capable of beating every other team in the country by 20 points without too much problem as long as they stay focused this year. That's the harsh truth.

Hansbrough>>>>>>>>>>>Zoubs
Lawson>>>Smith
Thompson>Thomas
Ellington=Scheyer
Henderson=Green

Result: We would be lucky to only lose by single digits.

Wait, where's Singler in this lineup? Admittedly, w/o S, staying with Carolina would be harsh (= impossible).

Duke over Purdue was impressive; UNC over M St was real, real impressive.

Wake might give Carolina a game in W-S. (BTW, Wake v. Indiana? Why not UVa v. Ind, Wake v. somebody else?) I'm impressed with Pitt, and if they've got depth, they've got lots of other stuff to stay with Carolina, maybe.

Several months ago, I posted that we should all hope for 4 great games between Duke and UNC this year, and further, hope (and be thrilled and quite satisfied if) Duke wins games 1 and 4. I'll stick with that optimistic scenario, and meanwhile enjoy many other great games against solid teams.

RelativeWays
12-04-2008, 08:27 AM
Its over and done with, UNC would beat us and everyone else on the way to the championship, nobody will stop them and the media (to quote Dennis Green) has already crowned their I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.es. History is on UNCs side. Remember how everyone said UNLV was going to steamroll everyone on the way to a second title in 91 and thats exactly what they did or when we smashed everyone for our second title in 99, just like the media said we would?


Oh wait......

Its really hard to judge teams from November/December to really see how good they will be in February and March. Duke was flat out awesome last November through January. During late February and March.....not so much. I hope we continue to improve over the next couple of months and it will be interesting to see how UNC responds if they are seriously tested (which might be a good thing for them before tourney time). I will say that Duke will need to be very selective in shooting 3's to beat UNCs. Lots of misses leads to lots of UNC rebounds and fast breaks, something that Duke or any other team can ill afford.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-04-2008, 08:52 AM
. This is a team that is not going to get better because they are not going to get pressed and may get a bit bored.

Dukelifer,
I have to disagree here...
This UNC team will absolutely get better...why assume everyone else will and they won't? How can they not? Two freshmen are getting quality time, against quality competition, both in practice and games. Ginyard will return in a couple of weeks too- remember he was a starter last season. He will be a plus addition. And with such a deep team, they better keep getting better or the guy behind them will snatch their playing time.

This team is playing much better defense than last year, without a doubt and getting better. I caught this telling quote after MSU from Frasor about defense..." The freshmen are really picking it up quicker, and Wayne is even going harder. Every guy is really picking it up quick."

"Even Wayne" ...tells me there is some urgency at the Heels practice on the defensive end if you want to play.

About being bored? Possible I guess, but more likely that with each win they become more focused with the additional pressures that will mount to go undefeated.

And trust me, they are thinking about going undefeated, although they are not talking about it. There are some big egos on that team. Big time athletes think that way, reasonable or not.

Wheat/"/"/" (http://4tarpon.wordpress.com/)

Kedsy
12-04-2008, 09:16 AM
duke would have no chance. i hate to say it but this year is carolina's year. they're absolutely stacked. they can go 10 deep and just run duke into the ground.

We can go 10 deep too. What does that prove?

Kedsy
12-04-2008, 09:22 AM
And trust me, they are thinking about going undefeated, although they are not talking about it. There are some big egos on that team. Big time athletes think that way, reasonable or not.

Let 'em think it. That'll make it more fun to watch their faces after their first couple losses.

elvis14
12-04-2008, 09:25 AM
Blueintheface,
This isn't directed at you, but the board in general. I don't understand the obsession with Carolina recently.

It's like Inside Carowina or ESPN around here lately. Every time I look on the main board there's a thread about UNC or Hanstravelputzblah. Enough already! This is a Duke board. UNC is good, we all know that. That's what's going to make it so much fun to beat them this year. We have steadily improved every game and we we don't play the Smurfs until Feb. We will do just fine, thank you.

Kfanarmy
12-04-2008, 09:41 AM
I have no doubt that if Duke shoots the ball reasonably well and keeps unforced turnovers down they can/would/will beat UNC....don't be surprised if the team that beat them in the tournament last year doesn't do it again this year...they look inexperienced but are good and have incredible potential. UNC seems to have one of those games each of the past few years where they go 7-8 minutes without scoring inexplicably...which happened to MSU last night. For the most part early in the 2nd half, MSU players were getting open looks consistently and missing them. No one was getting back, leaving UNC a bunch of wide open jumpers and layups...I think they are beatable though it won't be easy.

jv001
12-04-2008, 09:47 AM
It's like Inside Carowina or ESPN around here lately. Every time I look on the main board there's a thread about UNC or Hanstravelputzblah. Enough already! This is a Duke board. UNC is good, we all know that. That's what's going to make it so much fun to beat them this year. We have steadily improved every game and we we don't play the Smurfs until Feb. We will do just fine, thank you.

Amen!

BlueintheFace
12-04-2008, 10:25 AM
It's like Inside Carowina or ESPN around here lately. Every time I look on the main board there's a thread about UNC or Hanstravelputzblah. Enough already! This is a Duke board. UNC is good, we all know that. That's what's going to make it so much fun to beat them this year. We have steadily improved every game and we we don't play the Smurfs until Feb. We will do just fine, thank you.

wah, start another thread then.

rsvman
12-04-2008, 10:34 AM
It hurts me to say this as a Duke fan but Carolina at full strength(with a healthy Ginyard) is capable of beating every other team in the country by 20 points without too much problem as long as they stay focused this year. That's the harsh truth.

Hansbrough>>>>>>>>>>>Zoubs
Lawson>>>Smith
Thompson>Thomas
Ellington=Scheyer
Henderson=Green

Result: We would be lucky to only lose by single digits.

I agree with the first three equations, above, but disagree about the last two. I'd take Scheyer all day over Ellington, and Henderson over Green.

Also, please recall that basketball is a team sport. Sometimes a team can be better than the sum of its constituent parts. :)


Bottom line: I've got $5 on Duke to beat Carolina at least once this season.

dukelifer
12-04-2008, 11:13 AM
Dukelifer,
I have to disagree here...
This UNC team will absolutely get better...why assume everyone else will and they won't? How can they not? Two freshmen are getting quality time, against quality competition, both in practice and games. Ginyard will return in a couple of weeks too- remember he was a starter last season. He will be a plus addition. And with such a deep team, they better keep getting better or the guy behind them will snatch their playing time.

This team is playing much better defense than last year, without a doubt and getting better. I caught this telling quote after MSU from Frasor about defense..." The freshmen are really picking it up quicker, and Wayne is even going harder. Every guy is really picking it up quick."

"Even Wayne" ...tells me there is some urgency at the Heels practice on the defensive end if you want to play.

About being bored? Possible I guess, but more likely that with each win they become more focused with the additional pressures that will mount to go undefeated.

And trust me, they are thinking about going undefeated, although they are not talking about it. There are some big egos on that team. Big time athletes think that way, reasonable or not.

Wheat/"/"/" (http://4tarpon.wordpress.com/)

This UNC team may be very much like the 1998-1999 Devils in terms of separation with others. That Duke team was blowing teams out time after time. They had that early loss that too the season undefeated possibility away- but they were only really pressed by Mich St (who they later played in final four) and St Johns that year. Every other win was by double digits- most were blowouts. They seemed to keep their focus - so maybe this UNC team will as well. It is hard to know if they really got much better as each game seemed to be like another. They certainly did not respond well in the close game at the end.

Lawson seems to have been humbled by his NBA toe-dipping and DUI. His play is a lot like Avery's that year. He has always been a bit of a problem child- but not this year. He looks like a veteran pro - little emotion- little showboating. Right now Lawson is reason UNC is playing so well- and with a guaranteed 20/10 from the big guy - it looks like 1998-1999 all over again. Duke could press them for a whole game-but I see almost no other team in their regular season schedule doing this- with the possible exception of a very hot shooting Wake Forest team and a possibly physical VT Tech team at the end of the season.

JasonEvans
12-04-2008, 11:19 AM
It's early, of course, but I'm just not sure this is true. There have been years when we've seen similar gaps between the top two or three teams and the rest of the country, but I honestly can't recall the last time there was one team that stood alone like this. We shall see.


First of all-- have you seen what UConn has been doing so far? They have played a few fairly good teams too and the games have not been close. Pitt is yet to play anyone of consequence but they are also yet to be even mildly tested. The notion that Carolina is heads and shoulders above college basketball this season is simply too early to know.

Also, there have been many times where a team appeared to be a lot better than everyone else but then failed to win the title. Everyone around here points to 1991 UNLV or 1999 Duke -- and those are both great examples. Both those teams were much more highly regarded than UNC this year. But, there are other examples.

Anyone recall the 1997 Kansas Jayhawks? They were considered incredibly good. Their only loss all year was a double OT contest at rival Missouri. There were no more than a half a dozen games all year where the result was in any kind of doubt in the closing minutes. They lost in the Sweet 16 to Arizona.

The notion that this Carolina team is uniquely better than the rest of college basketball simply has not been shown yet and there is little historical evidence that such a gulf ever exists. It is possible that this is one of the all-time great teams-- but even if they are they can still be beat on the right night by the right opponent.

--Jason "this whole thread is silly" Evans

bluedev_92
12-04-2008, 11:31 AM
It hurts me to say this as a Duke fan but Carolina at full strength(with a healthy Ginyard) is capable of beating every other team in the country by 20 points without too much problem as long as they stay focused this year. That's the harsh truth.

Hansbrough>>>>>>>>>>>Zoubs
Lawson>>>Smith
Thompson>Thomas
Ellington=Scheyer
Henderson=Green

Result: We would be lucky to only lose by single digits.

What have you done with Singler??? Was he relegated to the bench? I'd also take Henderson over Green...

In any case, some are getting way to amped up about Carolina's dominance. I believe that Carolina is an excellent team. Do I think that they are so dominant, that they will pummel everyone? No. If one thinks that, they are pretty close to saying they won't lose - it that the premise that some of you have? I think they will loose. I also think that Duke can beat them. We are playing excellent defense & are much more mature than last year.

What I see so far is an overreaction to some very nice games by Carolina...

BlueintheFace
12-04-2008, 11:47 AM
First of all-- have you seen what UConn has been doing so far? They have played a few fairly good teams too and the games have not been close.

UConn has yet to play a ranked team


The notion that Carolina is heads and shoulders above college basketball this season is simply too early to know.

Maybe, but their talent and experience seems to indicate otherwise. Also, Tom Izzo, a coach I tend to listen to and respect, just called this team one of the best he has EVER seen.


Also, there have been many times where a team appeared to be a lot better than everyone else but then failed to win the title. Everyone around here points to 1991 UNLV or 1999 Duke -- and those are both great examples. Both those teams were much more highly regarded than UNC this year. But, there are other examples.

They were more highly regarded? By Who? The media has practically crowned Carolina. ESPN and SI.com both ran a story this morning on the game at Ford Field with the headline, "Dress Rehearsal." I remember 99 quite well and I don't se any discrepancy in the hype/attention paid to the two teams at this point in the season. I'd be surprised if anybody agreed with you here.


Anyone recall the 1997 Kansas Jayhawks? They were considered incredibly good. Their only loss all year was a double OT contest at rival Missouri. There were no more than a half a dozen games all year where the result was in any kind of doubt in the closing minutes. They lost in the Sweet 16 to Arizona.

...and? We obviously are all hoping for a similar result.


The notion that this Carolina team is uniquely better than the rest of college basketball simply has not been shown yet and there is little historical evidence that such a gulf ever exists.

You JUST pointed to 1999 and 1991. Those teams WERE uniquely better. Of course, that doesn't guarantee a championship.


It is possible that this is one of the all-time great teams-- but even if they are they can still be beat on the right night by the right opponent.

Yes, of course. Any reasonable person would agree here.


--Jason "this whole thread is silly" Evans

-- Blue "if it's a silly thread, then why waste your time responding to it" intheface

dukelifer
12-04-2008, 11:56 AM
First of all-- have you seen what UConn has been doing so far? They have played a few fairly good teams too and the games have not been close. Pitt is yet to play anyone of consequence but they are also yet to be even mildly tested. The notion that Carolina is heads and shoulders above college basketball this season is simply too early to know.

Also, there have been many times where a team appeared to be a lot better than everyone else but then failed to win the title. Everyone around here points to 1991 UNLV or 1999 Duke -- and those are both great examples. Both those teams were much more highly regarded than UNC this year. But, there are other examples.

Anyone recall the 1997 Kansas Jayhawks? They were considered incredibly good. Their only loss all year was a double OT contest at rival Missouri. There were no more than a half a dozen games all year where the result was in any kind of doubt in the closing minutes. They lost in the Sweet 16 to Arizona.

The notion that this Carolina team is uniquely better than the rest of college basketball simply has not been shown yet and there is little historical evidence that such a gulf ever exists. It is possible that this is one of the all-time great teams-- but even if they are they can still be beat on the right night by the right opponent.

--Jason "this whole thread is silly" Evans

Well it certainly does me feel any better that I might need to root for UConn so UNC doesn't win it all. It is early and UNC has crushed two supposedly ranked opponents. Looking at the next few weeks- there could be a game where UNC scores 150 or more. UNC is clicking on O and sadly D, and when that happens in sport it makes you wonder how good they are. This year UNC will get their chance to show if they are among the best teams ever in terms of separation with the rest of the current teams. Ranking this team with the best of all time is silly- but ranking them in terms of separation with their peers is not. That is really what this obsession is all about.

hurleyfor3
12-04-2008, 12:02 PM
I wonder what the Vegas odds are now for UNC to win it all? Perhaps the govt should put up the 700billion- for an absolute lock that is.

I looked into this when I was in Vegas last week. At the Harrah's properties (this includes Caesar's) they were 9/5 (ie bet $500 get back $1400). Remember that Vegas prices the entire field of "futures" bets at a discount, so their implied true odds are more like 3/1.

ClosetHurleyFan
12-04-2008, 12:25 PM
I think people really need to stop comparing Duke and UNC by doing player by player comparisons (although I would tell you that Danny Green has played phenomenal thus far, better than Henderson which is saying a lot) and analyze how they are pllaying as a team. I will grant you this, Duke is playing some of the best team defense in the country, but nobody, I mean nobody, is even close to playing the kind of team offenese UNC is rright now. Just look at the number of assisted buckets in the typical Carolina box score. Consider that Lawson has over a 5 to 1 assist to turnover ratio after having played two top 15 teams, one on road, one neutral. Duke is playing better team D than UNC right now, but UNC aint that far behind and when you consider how well UNC is playing team offense, well that says it all for me. That being said, I expect two all out wars this year and d**n its going to be fun.

Consider this too....as good as UNC is playing on Defense right now, they dont even have their best defensive player in the lineup and Ed Davis is starting to become a terror on the boards and blocking shots. Ed Davis has been amazing thus far, practically averaging a double double in well under 25 minutes a night. Think about a mature Ed Davis and Ginyard in this defensive line up come January.

And on the offensive side, anyone noticing the quiet yet effective minutes Roy is getting out of William Graves? He is a potential sleeper on this team and very effective three point shooter to compliment the three point shooting of Green, Ellington, Lawson (yes, lawson, just pay attention closely) and Frazier (although he has been a bit cold this year so far). And if Green to continue to shoot threes from deep at a greater than 40 percent clip from the 3 and 4 position, that is a really big problem for opposing teams.

ClosetHurleyFan
12-04-2008, 12:31 PM
I dont know that people are overreacting to the results per say, although winning aby 35 in Detroit is pretty damn impressive as was the victory over a tough Notre Dame team. I think its the feeeling that they are winning so handily and probably havent played to their potential yet. Ellington has not been like last year yet, Hansborough isnt fully healthy, Frasor is not giving much on offensive end, yet they havent missed a beat. And Give Ed Davis another 5 or 6 games, he could be good for a double/double most nights, off the bench behind Deon Thompson. Not to mention, that they get their best one on one defender, by far, and one of the best defenders in the ACC back, when Ginyard returns. Not to mention that just adds more depth to a team that seems to have tons and is developkng more in guys like Will Graves and Larry Drew. They are legitimately three deep at point guard, they could win lots of games with any of those three running the team, not to mention how it helps keep lawson rested.

Son of Mojo
12-04-2008, 12:41 PM
Sounds like there's a looooooooooooooot of Chicken Little's around here. They're a really good team but every team is susceptible to a loss (especially if they aren't put on the FT line for gimme's for breathing on them......) and there are teams who can and will beat the holes. I firmly believe we're one of them and that as we continue to improve our stock in conference and for the NC will show more people that we're deserving to be mentioned as contenders too. I'd rather be the underdog due to lack of pressure; let them have it so they can fold like an accordian yet again (remember people--this is basically the same team that Kansas obliterated last year. KU was good but really shouldn't have been able to do what they did). But geez, seeing the majority of people voting in this poll saying we'd lose is disheartening.

ncexnyc
12-04-2008, 12:42 PM
"Duke v Carolina TODAY", if I'm not mistaken. So why is everyone talking about the end of the year?
I thought this board is supposed to be about basketball and having some fun. These type of threads are just that.

We've looked solid so far, but Carolina has been way better. The only shortcomings of the Heels that we had discussed coming into this season, were their lack of solid defense and Lawson's limitations on offense. Both issues, which appear to have been corrected.

To say Carolina would win if the teams played today, isn't an insult to our team. It just puts a bigger bulleye on the Heels back and should serve to motivate the kids even more than they already are.

SilkyJ
12-04-2008, 12:46 PM
If Lawson is draining 23-24 footers like he was last night then we are in deep doodoo. MSU also tried to run with them, which is stupid and we will obviously try and control tempo and play better D.

If our inside game continues to develop then we will be OK, b/c I think Zoubs can give Hansbrough fits if he's healthy and moving well. That's the key for us, methinks.


Blueintheface,
This isn't directed at you, but the board in general. I don't understand the obsession with Carolina recently.

it just seems like a futile exercise to me.

OK well how is doing a mock draft in June any more or less futile. Its all entertainment value.



plus, this is a new question...
Other more relevant questions like:
Should we post up G more?
Should we work E-Will into the rotation more?
Should we run more set plays?
How can we better free G to use his athleticism?
How can we improve ball movement?
What is the best lineup to have on the floor with Greg?
etc...

...are addressed many times over after most games... or at least that is how it feels to me.

Some good questions in there. If we want to win a title (or beat kerowhina) we'll need G to emerge as serious scorer. A two head semi-monster of Singler/Scheyer aint gonna cut it. Especially when G can get into the lane and to the rim so easily.

I'd like to see more E-will, but I don't see why we need him. Our perimeter D is just fine, and we seem to be fine scoring from the wing. He just plays at the most crowded position we have. I was surprised to not see Marty play against purdue at all, b/c I thought he had been playing well all around. He's facing the same issues I guess...

CLT Devil
12-04-2008, 01:44 PM
As much as it pains me to admit, the Tarholes look to be one of the most superior teams in recent years. Of course the 1991 Rebs and 1999 Devils looked just as good and ended up losing in the FF, so you never know. With the talent, depth, superior point guard and big man this team has all the peices. I don't think they'll go undeafeated, but if we played them today I'm in the 10+ point loss boat. I watch all of their games in hope of finding some sort of chink in the armor but when they're up by 30 on a ranked team I get disgusted and turn off the TV.

We have some very nice players, and experience coming off the bench will be a hige asset to us. Smith at the PG IMO is the biggest improvement of the year for our team as a whole.

COYS
12-04-2008, 02:15 PM
Obviously the Holes are pretty darn good this year, but you don't even have to go back to 99 to see a team dominate like this. Remember in '04 we thrashed MSU in Michigan about the same time of year. In '06 in a 1 vs. 2 matchup, we dismantled Texas. I'll give you that UNC has more depth than our '06 squad but I strongly believe they are not any better than our '04 team. Obviously, they're a really good team and I can understand the hype, but at the same time, they have a lot to accomplish before anyone else in the college basketball world should regard them as unstoppable. I personally can't wait until February 11.

BlueintheFace
12-04-2008, 02:35 PM
The poll results so far are interesting, quite a bit of pessimism, but not much of a consensus here

SilkyJ
12-04-2008, 03:42 PM
I'll give you that UNC has more depth than our '06 squad but I strongly believe they are not any better than our '04 team.

Oh I don't know about that. I would definitely say they are better than our '04 team, tho not by much.

While we had JJ and Sheld on that team, they were merely sophomores still developing their games and luol was but a freshman. Lawson as a junior is every bit as good as duhon as a senior, arguably better, and our '04 team did not have the reigning POY and a 3 time 1st team all-acc selection. That team ended up producing several NBA players, but this team has several guys who are lottery picks or 1st rounders TODAY.


I personally can't wait until February 11.

well there we agree :D

Jumbo
12-04-2008, 03:53 PM
First of all-- have you seen what UConn has been doing so far? They have played a few fairly good teams too and the games have not been close. Pitt is yet to play anyone of consequence but they are also yet to be even mildly tested. The notion that Carolina is heads and shoulders above college basketball this season is simply too early to know.

Also, there have been many times where a team appeared to be a lot better than everyone else but then failed to win the title. Everyone around here points to 1991 UNLV or 1999 Duke -- and those are both great examples. Both those teams were much more highly regarded than UNC this year. But, there are other examples.

Anyone recall the 1997 Kansas Jayhawks? They were considered incredibly good. Their only loss all year was a double OT contest at rival Missouri. There were no more than a half a dozen games all year where the result was in any kind of doubt in the closing minutes. They lost in the Sweet 16 to Arizona.

The notion that this Carolina team is uniquely better than the rest of college basketball simply has not been shown yet and there is little historical evidence that such a gulf ever exists. It is possible that this is one of the all-time great teams-- but even if they are they can still be beat on the right night by the right opponent.

--Jason "this whole thread is silly" Evans

Exactly. I was thinking about 1997 Kansas team recently, and that's a great example.

Here's another thing people forget -- entering last March, no one thought there was much separation between Duke and Carolina. We won at their place without Lawson. They won a tight one at Cameron with Lawson, where we led by one and then couldn't score in the last 3-4 minutes.
We're missing Markie, but are clearly playing on a higher level this year. They're missing Stephenson and Thomas, but are also playing at a higher level. Still, not THAT much has changed. There's absolutely no reason to think that several teams couldn't take them out on the right day. And the team at the top of that list is Duke.

Biscuit
12-04-2008, 04:13 PM
Exactly. I was thinking about 1997 Kansas team recently, and that's a great example.

Here's another thing people forget -- entering last March, no one thought there was much separation between Duke and Carolina. We won at their place without Lawson. They won a tight one at Cameron with Lawson, where we led by one and then couldn't score in the last 3-4 minutes.
We're missing Markie, but are clearly playing on a higher level this year. They're missing Stephenson and Thomas, but are also playing at a higher level. Still, not THAT much has changed. There's absolutely no reason to think that several teams couldn't take them out on the right day. And the team at the top of that list is Duke.

Totally agree with your conclusion: Duke (along with UConn) is at the top of the list of several teams that could knock off UNC. However, as a resident Heel, I'll make a point that I've made elsewhere when discussing the 2008-09 Heels. I think you, and other posters, are underestimating the impact of a healthy and vastly improved Ty Lawson.

Before the season started, UNC was projected to be the team to beat with Lawson merely projected to be among the game's better point guards. I don't recall seeing him on any preseason first-team All-American teams. Eight games in, it's pretty clear that he's not simply among the game's better point guards. He's head and shoulders above any other PG in college basketball (yes, including Collison). Sure, 8 games is a small sample size, and plenty of things could derail him, from injury to thinking about NBA draft stock to a plain old shooting slump. Still, it's a mistake to say that not that much has changed. UNC effectively "added" the best point guard in college basketball to a Final Four team.

Again, the Heels are in no way invincible. For example, from what I've seen, Singler seems to have improved so much that you could say they "added" an elite 3/4 to their 2007-08 team. Same goes for Nolan Smith, who is an enormous upgrade from Paulus, especially when it comes to a Lawson matchup. All I'm saying is that analyzing the Heels by saying that they're anything like the 2007-08 team is inaccurate.

JasonEvans
12-04-2008, 04:23 PM
UConn has yet to play a ranked team


Can you explain why the games against Miami and Wisconsin, both of which UConn won with ease, don't count as games against ranked teams?

More than 25% of UConn's schedule so far has been against ranked teams ;)

-Jason "granted, Miami and Wiscy are not as highly regarded as ND or MSU, but still..." Evans

dukelifer
12-04-2008, 04:35 PM
Exactly. I was thinking about 1997 Kansas team recently, and that's a great example.

Here's another thing people forget -- entering last March, no one thought there was much separation between Duke and Carolina. We won at their place without Lawson. They won a tight one at Cameron with Lawson, where we led by one and then couldn't score in the last 3-4 minutes.
We're missing Markie, but are clearly playing on a higher level this year. They're missing Stephenson and Thomas, but are also playing at a higher level. Still, not THAT much has changed. There's absolutely no reason to think that several teams couldn't take them out on the right day. And the team at the top of that list is Duke.

Duke will give UNC a game because Duke plays hard all the time. UNC will need to match that intensity. UNC's O is better at this point and likely to better throughout the year because of Lawson- his scoring and distributing of the ball. This year's Lawson is a better than last year's Lawson and for a team that only lost 2 games until the Kansas debacle - one in OT and one without Lawson- Duke and everyone else has to be that much more improved. So Duke should play with them- I have no doubt. But if UNC stays healthy- and so far that is a question mark in a long season- it will take a monstrous defensive or offensive effort by the opposing team or a monstrous collapse by UNC to beat them because of the balance and experience. Injuries or some strange game scenario could always do them in- which is why we just have to wait and see.

BlueintheFace
12-04-2008, 04:49 PM
Can you explain why the games against Miami and Wisconsin, both of which UConn won with ease, don't count as games against ranked teams?

More than 25% of UConn's schedule so far has been against ranked teams ;)

-Jason "granted, Miami and Wiscy are not as highly regarded as ND or MSU, but still..." Evans

Well, when UConn played them, they were not ranked, but point well taken. They have now cracked the top25. I made the mistake of looking at their schedule on ESPN which showed zero ranked teams played (which admittedly doesn't mean a whole lot). Although, it is important to note that ND and Michigan St. were both perceived to be final four contenders by most people while Wisconsin and Miami are certainly not supposed to be that caliber of team.

jipops
12-04-2008, 05:30 PM
Also, there have been many times where a team appeared to be a lot better than everyone else but then failed to win the title. Everyone around here points to 1991 UNLV or 1999 Duke -- and those are both great examples. Both those teams were much more highly regarded than UNC this year. But, there are other examples.

Anyone recall the 1997 Kansas Jayhawks? They were considered incredibly good. Their only loss all year was a double OT contest at rival Missouri. There were no more than a half a dozen games all year where the result was in any kind of doubt in the closing minutes. They lost in the Sweet 16 to Arizona.

The notion that this Carolina team is uniquely better than the rest of college basketball simply has not been shown yet and there is little historical evidence that such a gulf ever exists. It is possible that this is one of the all-time great teams-- but even if they are they can still be beat on the right night by the right opponent.

--Jason "this whole thread is silly" Evans

Yeah, and who coached that '97 Jayhawk team that was penned the preseason favorite?

The difference between that year and this one is the lack of additional heavy weights for this season. I've seen most every current top 10 team play so far this season and none really present them selves as being a true power kind of like how Memphis, Kansas, and UCLA in addition to UNC presented themselves even at this point last season. Granted, there could very well be teams that are "in progress" throughout the season and become developed and powerful towards the end but it's difficult to see who that is. Maybe it's us? We've shown promise but there are glaring weaknesses still to be overcome.

- UConn comes the closest to matching up with the current #1 in terms of personnel and size. The play good D and rebound very well.
- Pitt I'm not sold on, they lack the backcourt to go far in the ncaa's.
- Then there's us and after that I just don't see a team all that impressive in terms of being a power for this season.
- Texas is a team I could see sneak up there but that depends on the pg play since they lost Augustin.

I basically see a bunch of teams in the top 10 finishing with 7-10 losses then UNC finishing with at most 1.

Lulu
12-04-2008, 05:49 PM
Do any of you think our team is going to head into the Carolina games expecting to lose? No! They will absolutely believe they're going to win. Fans shouldn't run too far afield, particularly in public forums.

I can't believe everyone here who's buying the media hype. Sounds like my friends who have yet to watch a college basketball game because they're still caught up in football season, but repeat the same ESPN talking points whenever it comes up.

Carolina is good, yes, but they are NOT Duke '99. Not even close. They're basically the same team that failed to win it all last year so I don't see why they're suddenly invincible, especially in the eyes of Duke fans. Slightly better, sure, and so are we. It's hard to get too excited about their thumping of Mich St after Maryland just did the same thing (albeit by only 18). We beat up a team like Mich St. most seasons, too. We didn't beat Purdue by 30-something, but if you ask me Purdue would hand it to Mich St right now. Maybe if Purdue played defense like Mich St we'd have beat them by 35 and scored nearly 100, too. This coronation of UNC around here is just ridiculous.

I guess it's just me, but I prefer to support our team. We have an excellent chance of beating UNC, we even have an excellent chance of doing it more than once, which is why this attitude is just dumbfounding. You guys are acting like we're Virginia.

dukestheheat
12-04-2008, 08:42 PM
Truly, Carolina is playing this year to get the monkey off of their backs from being so thoroughly embarrassed in last year's Final Four by Kansas.

Their focus is to destroy teams.

But never, ever count out the emotion and rivalry that is Duke/Carolina....I don't care if they have all five going to the League next year (which they don't) and we're playing role players (which we are not), Duke/Carolina usually is close and heated, just as it should be.

dukestheheat.

dukelifer
12-04-2008, 09:52 PM
Can you explain why the games against Miami and Wisconsin, both of which UConn won with ease, don't count as games against ranked teams?

More than 25% of UConn's schedule so far has been against ranked teams ;)

-Jason "granted, Miami and Wiscy are not as highly regarded as ND or MSU, but still..." Evans

UConn survives a close one against Buffalo tonight. Buffalo?

gep
12-04-2008, 11:09 PM
Hansbrough>>>>>>>>>>>Zoubs


Maybe... you've got too many ">" there...:D

I still remember Brian's first game against Hans... I think Brian held Hans in check most of the 1st half. I'd like to think that Brian's development and being injury-free will at least slow down Hans... maybe even get Hans in foul trouble:D

duketaylor
12-04-2008, 11:34 PM
the power of Duke hoops. I've seen Duke beat unc when unc was concensus #1 and Duke sucked. I saw Duke beat unc as a frosh when the 'holes had Jordan, Perkins and Worthy and Duke had, um, nobody. Please don't make me wretch with this crap, have faith and know, Duke can ALWAYS beat unc.
It's such a long time before these teams meet, please don't annoint any team anything.

Matches
12-05-2008, 09:59 AM
On a given night we can take them. In a best-of-7 series we would be in big trouble.

Fortunately, we won't be playing any best-of-7 series against them...

davekay1971
12-05-2008, 10:30 AM
Eight games in, it's pretty clear that he's not simply among the game's better point guards. He's head and shoulders above any other PG in college basketball (yes, including Collison).


This is kind of a quibbling point, since overall I agree with your central point that Lawson is markedly improved, and that is HUGE for Carolina. But I wouldn't say he's head and shoulders above above any other PG in college basketball. There's a young man just north of Charlotte who might argue that Lawson isn't the best point guard in North Carolina. Not slamming Lawson here...he's really really good, and he may more of a natural PG than Curry...but Curry plays the PG position, and he's a legit national POY candidate.

Wander
12-05-2008, 10:44 AM
Here's another thing people forget -- entering last March, no one thought there was much separation between Duke and Carolina.

I do not disagree with your conclusion, but plenty of people thought there was significant separation between Duke and UNC last March. There were many people who picked UNC to win the title but didn't think Duke could even get to the Final Four.



He's head and shoulders above any other PG in college basketball


Curry is better, though it's closer than I expected.



"granted, Miami and Wiscy are not as highly regarded as ND or MSU, but still..."


I've been whining a lot about Miami being overrated, but #2 on my list might be Notre Dame. They are the exact same team that got blasted in the 2nd round last year - no new freshmen, no Nolan-over-Greg-like changes to their lineup.

Biscuit
12-05-2008, 11:38 AM
Apologies for unintentionally slighting Curry when I praised Lawson. I was thinking of Curry as a SG, where I believe he played last year and where he may have to play the NBA. Lawson is more of a "pure" point guard, and better than Curry with respect to the skill set usually associated with PGs (leading the break, running the offense, penetrating and dishing, guarding the opponent's ballhandler). But Curry is every bit the basketball player that Lawson is.