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View Full Version : Nolan Smith's Back?



Jeffrey
12-03-2008, 10:30 AM
Hi,

I think Nolan can take us deep into March if he is healthy. What is the condition of his back?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Dukie4Life
12-03-2008, 01:57 PM
I can't say for sure but almost always back spasms is a safe bet. Not really a huge deal just more nagging for a player like Nolan who can't stand not to be on the court!

CameronBornAndBred
12-03-2008, 02:16 PM
It was scary enough to watch him land on it during Duquesne and spend the rest of the game on the bench having it iced. He landed hard again last night twice on his back. I was happy for his fouls just so it would keep him from hurting himself!

SupaDave
12-03-2008, 02:48 PM
It was scary enough to watch him land on it during Duquesne and spend the rest of the game on the bench having it iced. He landed hard again last night twice on his back. I was happy for his fouls just so it would keep him from hurting himself!

He just laid there one time and I was VERY concerned...

Jeffrey
12-04-2008, 12:05 PM
Hi,

I would think/hope that one of our resident experts would be informed. Jim? Jumbo? Carlos? Anyone?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Ders24
12-04-2008, 12:18 PM
Based on things I've heard he's alright -- nothing serious. I'm not Jumbo though so keep that in mind :)

greybeard
12-04-2008, 12:36 PM
Falling skills should be a part of team training. As a matter of fact, Duke could do worse then have a Judo trainer on the sports training staff to work with athletes in many sports. Benefits way beyond learning to fall safely; could possibly learn a tremendous amount about reading and manipulating momentum, center of gravity, etc. Nope, never took a Judo course myself. If I were a younger man, however, . . . . ;)

In the meantime, reducing at risk behaviors even if the risk is that your opponent will do something stupid or worse is sometimes the better course. Smith is way too valuable to be falling hard on his back all the time like he has been.

SupaDave
12-04-2008, 12:42 PM
Falling skills should be a part of team training. As a matter of fact, Duke could do worse then have a Judo trainer on the sports training staff to work with athletes in many sports. Benefits way beyond learning to fall safely; could possibly learn a tremendous amount about reading and manipulating momentum, center of gravity, etc. Nope, never took a Judo course myself. If I were a younger man, however, . . . . ;)

In the meantime, reducing at risk behaviors even if the risk is that your opponent will do something stupid or worse is sometimes the better course. Smith is way too valuable to be falling hard on his back all the time like he has been.

Or ballet perhaps.... :)

Rich
12-04-2008, 12:44 PM
I didn't know he was gone! :)

greybeard
12-04-2008, 05:16 PM
Or ballet perhaps.... :)

Me in a tutu. Now that is way beyond humorous. :eek:

hughgs
12-04-2008, 08:07 PM
Benefits way beyond learning to fall safely; could possibly learn a tremendous amount about reading and manipulating momentum, center of gravity, etc. Nope, never took a Judo course myself. If I were a younger man, however, . . . . ;)

Judo skills won't really help guard play. Now, if you want to talk about boxing out, or playing with a player on your hip, then you have something. Essentially, judo skills require good contact with your opponent. But guard play, can't see it.

BlueintheFace
12-04-2008, 09:32 PM
What are you all talking about. Duke players have some of the best falling techniques in the nation. With all the charges we take, you can't be a Duke basketball player without good falling skills off of contact...;)

OZZIE4DUKE
12-04-2008, 10:07 PM
I didn't know he was gone! :)

I was going to say that!

How about "He never left!"

greybeard
12-04-2008, 11:57 PM
My thinking, with getting thrown all the time in Judo, they'd have to teach you to land every which way and roll into the fall or something to make it, well, not hurt. Also, the deal in Judo that I would think is transferrable is making your oponent think you are leaning, moving, have your center of gravity shifting one way when it really isn't; same with reading those kind of fakes, and then getting a feel for the timing of taking advantage of a even a quicker guy who has to recover first before he can respond to your choice.

Those skills were how I made my bones playing the game, using the ball as a lure, and creating all kinds of subtle illusions that the better players would read and think that they picked up on pne of my how do they call it in poker, "shows," only it was a fake, a slight clench in the jaw and slow raise of the eyebrows, then a movement of the ball up softly, again keeping my momentum down and the guy was sold.

I'm thinking that Judo would train people in varied modes of falling without getting hurt, and then in the art of creating false reads and discerning when they are false.

BTW, the learning to fall couldn't hurt when you get to be my age, trust me.

I would have picked some other martial arts but most contain kicking and striking skills. I can just see the headline now.

Especially with big men, so much emphasis is put on holding position, creating position with the body, that the part of movement that requires purposeful instability is undervalued and barely explored at all. Telling someone to move under control belies that there are repeated moments in movement when there is no control, only the momentum that the last moment of control created. Getting used to that, like the first day of trying to come down off a mountain, creates much more strained effort than giving into instability produces. Little guys know that intuitively. Bigger guys not so much.

Deliberate exploration of the world of being effective in purposeful instability could be very valuable.

"Just when we thought he had it all out of his system, here we go again boys. Let's not provoke him any further." Sorry guys, way too late, I'm just gettin started. Not! ;)

hughgs
12-05-2008, 06:59 AM
My thinking, with getting thrown all the time in Judo, they'd have to teach you to land every which way and roll into the fall or something to make it, well, not hurt. Also, the deal in Judo that I would think is transferrable is making your oponent think you are leaning, moving, have your center of gravity shifting one way when it really isn't; same with reading those kind of fakes, and then getting a feel for the timing of taking advantage of a even a quicker guy who has to recover first before he can respond to your choice.

Those skills were how I made my bones playing the game, using the ball as a lure, and creating all kinds of subtle illusions that the better players would read and think that they picked up on pne of my how do they call it in poker, "shows," only it was a fake, a slight clench in the jaw and slow raise of the eyebrows, then a movement of the ball up softly, again keeping my momentum down and the guy was sold.

I'm thinking that Judo would train people in varied modes of falling without getting hurt, and then in the art of creating false reads and discerning when they are false.

As I stated before, judo will not help you "in the art of creating false reads and discerning when they are false". Judo is glorified wrestling. The skills gained in sensing the subtleties of balance and momentum require strong contact with your opponent. You can't throw someone without some control, a good grip, and you can't throw someone who is balanced. Watch a judo match and the first thing the combatants do is fight for good grip position. So, judo won't help you to learn to make those fakes or to read those fakes. Unless you change the rules and allow full contact with the ball.

As for falling, I agree that judo would help with falling, but not in the way you describe. Judo falls all occur on your side and back. The key to the landing isn't really body position, but your head. And the key there is to keep your chin on your chest, or as my dad puts it, "TUCK YOUR CHIN"! The issue I see all the time and I'm constantly shaking my head about is that you always see players letting their heads hit the floor.

heyman25
12-05-2008, 07:05 AM
In the Purdue game Singler did a perfect fall for a ball going out of bounds.

hughgs
12-05-2008, 07:34 AM
In the Purdue game Singler did a perfect fall for a ball going out of bounds.

Fall or dive. Judo would teach one to fall. Diving for a ball is a different matter and isn't really addressed when learning to fall in judo.

chalz
12-05-2008, 09:58 AM
"Judo Chop!"

- Austin Danger Powers

greybeard
12-05-2008, 11:05 AM
What I'm thinking about is one of those martial arts where guys learn how to roll with the fall, learning to add to the momentum forward or backward as the case maybe through use of the arms and legs, while tucking the head and softening the spine and ribs and collapsing into oneself.

By the way, in Judo, landing softly on your back involves not only tucking your chin, but softening your ribs and spine, allowing your sternum to sink, while your pelvis comes up, so that you collapse into yourself. Then, you impact on the fleible part of the back which expands and straightens on impact, or something like this.

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

If it were me, I'd try to land on my feet.

Falling techniques are worth learning; take it from a greybeard who hasn't, the ground gets so much harder . . . .

hughgs
12-05-2008, 01:21 PM
What I'm thinking about is one of those martial arts where guys learn how to roll with the fall, learning to add to the momentum forward or backward as the case maybe through use of the arms and legs, while tucking the head and softening the spine and ribs and collapsing into oneself.

As I said, judo will help with falling. If one needs to roll out of a fall then judo can also help there. I completely agree with you there


By the way, in Judo, landing softly on your back involves not only tucking your chin, but softening your ribs and spine, allowing your sternum to sink, while your pelvis comes up, so that you collapse into yourself. Then, you impact on the fleible part of the back which expands and straightens on impact, or something like this.

That's a nice idea, but completely wrong. There's no "landing softly on your back". The sport uses a mat for that. You try and slap the ground to help lose some momentum and land on your back with your chin tucked in. Some of the time you don't even have a chance at slapping the ground.

As an example of the speed in which a throw can occur, I was 6 or 7 and in the match got thrown. We're separated to our spots and the referee announces the match for me. There was a 5 minute talk (probably only a couple of minutes) between the referee and the two umpires before they correctly awarded to match to my opponent. If a 7 year old can throw someone fast enough to fool a referee then imagine the speed of an adult.


[QUOTE=greybeard;227502]If it were me, I'd try to land on my feet.

There's no landing on your feet in judo. The throws are designed to place you on your back. In case the throw isn't completely successful then having your opponent nearly on his back allow one to use hold-downs, chokes, limb, locks, etc. to win the match. Nice try.

greybeard
12-05-2008, 05:55 PM
H, you miss my meaning. If I were Smith I'd try to land on my feet and stop doing stuff that puts me in danger of landing on my back, even if the stuff is oh so effective.

As for Judo, I fear that that ship has sailed for me. I might well get hold of a martial artist and get falling lessons, however; that's for real.

There was a young guy in my Feldenkrais training who, when we were discussing balance, paraollelogram of sustinization issues, started doing all these amazing fall and rolls, forwards and backwards. I remember asking him what he was doing studying the Feldrais method given his mastery of such things as I was witnessing. He's no longer in the program. The young are so, so impressionable.

I tried to talk my son into studying Judo. He chose instead that Brazilian maritial art built around dance. What can I say, he's blood. Later.