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patentgeek
11-30-2008, 07:05 PM
I attended the Duke FB game yesterday and witnessed an incident I'd like other opinions on - at first I thought it was rather classless on the part of the Heels, then couldn't decide whether I was just oversensitive to their action because I dislike their team and fans so much.

Here's the situation: not long before the game started, the Duke PA announcer came on and told the crowd that we'd be doing the "We are Duke" cheer. The cheerleaders had signs that directed the chant, but as it was getting rolling, it was interrupted by a "Tar ... Heels" chant (as for which was louder, it sounded to me like it was pretty even, although it probably depended on where one was sitting). Anyway, as I was thinking to myself that it was typically classless of the idiotic Heels fans to start this cheer during our chant, I noticed that the UNC cheerleaders were actually leading the cheer (pointing pom-poms first one direction, then the other, to keep the cheer going). I realize that the school can't control the kinds of things that fans do (within reason), but my initial thought was that having the UNC cheerleaders attempting to get the fans to drown out a Duke cheer announced over the PA was pretty rude.

After thinking about it for a while, I'm wavering a bit, but I still feel like it was kind of a low class move. Am I wrong? I'm curious to hear other opinions (and I know this board is always full of opinions).

(I also realize that, in the grand scheme of things, this is not an important issue at all - I was just hoping to hear the thoughts of others).

rockymtn devil
11-30-2008, 07:10 PM
Not.

That's a football game. If the game were in Chapel Hill, I'd hope Duke fans would do the same. Without being there I can't comment on the crowd (looked good on tv), but the home team should be able to drown out opposing teams fans.

allenmurray
11-30-2008, 07:20 PM
Not.

That's a football game. If the game were in Chapel Hill, I'd hope Duke fans would do the same. Without being there I can't comment on the crowd (looked good on tv), but the home team should be able to drown out opposing teams fans.

I agree - I hope Duke fans would do the same. But that was not the question.


I noticed that the UNC cheerleaders were actually leading the cheer (pointing pom-poms first one direction, then the other, to keep the cheer going). I realize that the school can't control the kinds of things that fans do (within reason), but my initial thought was that having the UNC cheerleaders attempting to get the fans to drown out a Duke cheer announced over the PA was pretty rude.


The question was about the cheerleaders leading it. If the fans do it, it is spontaneous and school-spirited. If the cheerleaders do it it is planned and organized and not quite the same. Still not a big deal, but not the same issue at all.

Devilhawks
11-30-2008, 08:05 PM
When I started reading the first post, I thought that it was a ridiculous thing to ask -- if away fans can be louder than home fans, of course they should take advantage! I was expecting the post to simply be a jealous fan angry that we don't have the football support we'd like to have.

BUT the fact that the cheerleaders were doing it is totally different. I have always thought that opposing cheerleaders and bands are in the stadium as invited guests and should act like it. Fans who paid for their seats have purchased the right to do basically whatever they want, but the cheerleaders have not purchased that right. So yes, it was pretty rude.

sagegrouse
11-30-2008, 08:08 PM
As the glaciers were receding, the Tarheels were fond of using the cheer, "Go-o-o-o Tarheels, G-o-o-o-o," at every opportunity. Not only in Chapel Hill but at the Duke football stadium or Indoor Stadium (there were plenty of tix for visitors back in the day). To which we would always respond, "Go to hell!" as loudly as possible and much louder than the original cheer.

Sounds like what goes around comes around.

sagegrouse

-bdbd
11-30-2008, 08:33 PM
I was there too.
And I've seen competing crowd cheers at many venues. It's nothing new, and not surprising yesterday given that the Kerlina fans probably had AT LEAST 1/3 of the stadium. (I was actually more surprised at the chutzpa of numerous Kerlina tailgaters beforehand with UNC flags flying, UNC-labeled tailgating tents in prominent view (even in the Iron Dukes lots!!) and many, many UNC chants/cheers taunted at passing Duke fans going into the stadium.

I have been to many games at competing ACC arenas/stadiums, especially over in Chapel Hill, and in all honesty I've always thought of myself as a "guest" (or interloper (?), as I am usually in a very mall group and not in the Duke section). I refuse to not clap when my team does well/scores - as an old UNC girlfriend used to try to get me to do - but just would never do something so rude as to shout out jeers against the opponent's team/players, or loudly curse/insult the refs when they made anti-Duke calls, or launch into Duke cheers in the middle of, for example, a Carolina home crowd. But sitting in the heart of the Duke fan area, in Section 25 down low near our team, cheerleaders, I was just astonished at seeing frequently and persistent of all- of-the-above from the many UNC fans sprinkled throughout the Duke side. They were loud, obnoxious and frequently boorish - certainly not good "guests." As I explained to my non-Duke wife attending her first WW game, it is sort of like a bully mentality from a group of fans who outnumber Dukies in the state by several multiples, who expect to win, always, and they are determined to let you know that THEY are the team from this state, and you (and your whole school/fanbase) are just interlopers.

It's just a shame we can't sell out WW and keep them, largely out. Or at least win more often to just shut them up.

-BDBD

OZZIE4DUKE
11-30-2008, 08:43 PM
Not.

That's a football game. If the game were in Chapel Hill, I'd hope Duke fans would do the same. Without being there I can't comment on the crowd (looked good on tv), but the home team should be able to drown out opposing teams fans.

Agree - NOT, because it was the cheer leaders starting it.

On the other hand, in the second half when they got that tar - heels response cheer going, I got a pretty good 3rd part of the cheer started in response -

tar -- heels -- SUCK going in Section 27.

DukeUsul
11-30-2008, 09:21 PM
I think there are much bigger things to worry about than the cheerleaders leading a "Tar.... Heels" cheer over top of a "Go.... Duke" cheer. Take the opinion of a former band member who represented this great University in opposing stadiums for what it's worth (two cents?). We'd have done the exact same thing at Kenan or Carter-Finley. All's fair in a rivalry, as long it's clean. And that includes cheerleaders/band.

Opposing fans who come in and act like boors, hurl insults and invective, and make a**hats of themselves are what tick me off. And the best way to shut them up is to:
1) fill the stands
2) kick their team's behinds.

norduck
11-30-2008, 09:45 PM
at least GTHC was very audible on ESPNU !

CameronBornAndBred
11-30-2008, 09:58 PM
Classless is very hard to define in our rivalry, so I'm on the side of not. Unless you use completely crass language in the face of an alumnus grandmother, all is fairgame. Just put yourself on the baby blue side for a microsecond (that's all you're allowed) You would have laughed and had fun. It's not Duke-UNC if it's not worth writing about. GTHC GTH!!!

wilson
11-30-2008, 10:12 PM
I have three thoughts:

1. The "We are [insert school name here]" cheer is lame. It was lame in its original iteration as a Penn State cheer, but then it was popularized by yet another schlocky, supposedly inspirational sports movie ("We Are Marshall"), making it even lamer. Duke fans can do better than knocking off someone else's mediocre calling card.
2. Announcing an upcoming cheer over the PA is lame. Duke is known for some of the most creative fans in the country, and we have to resort to that (also see above)? Pitiful.
3. There's a really good way to stop the visiting team's fans from drowning the home crowd: just flat out don't let it happen. To complain about "politeness" at a football game strikes me as a bit ridiculous.

Cavlaw
11-30-2008, 10:18 PM
I have three thoughts:

1. The "We are [insert school name here]" cheer is lame. It was lame in its original iteration as a Penn State cheer, but then it was popularized by yet another schlocky, supposedly inspirational sports movie ("We Are Marshall"), making it even lamer. Duke fans can do better than knocking off someone else's mediocre calling card.
2. Announcing an upcoming cheer over the PA is lame. Duke is known for some of the most creative fans in the country, and we have to resort to that (also see above)? Pitiful.
3. There's a really good way to stop the visiting team's fans from drowning the home crowd: just flat out don't let it happen. To complain about "politeness" at a football game strikes me as a bit ridiculous.
That says it for me.

jlear
11-30-2008, 10:24 PM
I have three thoughts:

1. The "We are [insert school name here]" cheer is lame. It was lame in its original iteration as a Penn State cheer, but then it was popularized by yet another schlocky, supposedly inspirational sports movie ("We Are Marshall"), making it even lamer. Duke fans can do better than knocking off someone else's mediocre calling card.
2. Announcing an upcoming cheer over the PA is lame. Duke is known for some of the most creative fans in the country, and we have to resort to that (also see above)? Pitiful.
3. There's a really good way to stop the visiting team's fans from drowning the home crowd: just flat out don't let it happen. To complain about "politeness" at a football game strikes me as a bit ridiculous.

I would not say it is lame at Penn State, but otherwise I agree 100% with each of your points.

The best way the shut the heels up is, buy our seats and beat the crap out of them on the field. Luckily Butch doesn't seem to be as good a game coach as he is a recruiter.

GP3NY
11-30-2008, 10:34 PM
As much as I hate UNC and their ridiculously annoying fans/cheerleaders/players/coaches/everything ... they have a right to start whatever cheers they want.

I mean whats the difference... when they do their annoying tar... heel cheer, duke fans cheer with them but say, tar... HOLE!... which even gets better when the fans get the I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this...... HOLE cheer going! Tar holes have no clue whats going on. Or, whenever they cheer, we cheer Go To Hell Carolina Go To Hell... Eat sh*t!!

I mean I hate them, but it's all in the fun of the game and rivalry!

Acymetric
11-30-2008, 10:40 PM
I have three thoughts:

1. The "We are [insert school name here]" cheer is lame. It was lame in its original iteration as a Penn State cheer, but then it was popularized by yet another schlocky, supposedly inspirational sports movie ("We Are Marshall"), making it even lamer. Duke fans can do better than knocking off someone else's mediocre calling card.
2. Announcing an upcoming cheer over the PA is lame. Duke is known for some of the most creative fans in the country, and we have to resort to that (also see above)? Pitiful.
3. There's a really good way to stop the visiting team's fans from drowning the home crowd: just flat out don't let it happen. To complain about "politeness" at a football game strikes me as a bit ridiculous.

I agree and have mentioned it before I think. I also hate having them announce the Blue Devil and the Team entering. Have some standard music that cues each event for every game. If fireworks and loud music don't make people look at the team coming on the field and cheer, a guy on the PA won't either.

Another important thing is this: We do need a good standard cheer. What would it be? "Let's Go Duke" could work, I s'pose, but I'd be up for something new and football specific if someone could come up with something good. Cheering will improve as the team improves and brings in more fans, and hopefully we'll learn proper cheering techniques for football (like be loud when the other team has the ball!).

jlear
11-30-2008, 10:53 PM
Cheering will improve as the team improves and brings in more fans, and hopefully we'll learn proper cheering techniques for football (like be loud when the other team has the ball!).

Maybe we should give everyone a cowbell and a kazoo with make noise when duke is on defense printed on it.

It drives me crazy when people start making a bunch of noise when we are on offense, but over time the football IQ will improve, I hope.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-30-2008, 11:43 PM
Many State and Carolina fans rely on making lots of noise when they go to other stadiums as a display of their strength of numbers. To make the most noise is a symbolic take over of somebody else's home field. If we want this to prevent such noise in Wallace Wade, we have to fill it up with so many season's ticket holders that the ticket office has to designate only one or two sections left over for visitors.

I'm older than most of you guys. I can recall when the bands did display some courtesy to each other. At the end of the game, it was customary for the home band to play their Alma Mater. The visiting band would then play their own Alma Mater. Two years ago in Durham, the Carolina band immediately began loudly playing their Alma Mater at the end of the game. It added symbolic insult to the way their team was celebrating on the field. For the visiting band to behave like that is discourteous. Our band (an alumni group) just gathered up their instruments and equipment and left. That's not the way any game should end and certainly not one that is also the end of the season.

duketaylor
11-30-2008, 11:48 PM
I have done it on numerous occasions, that being insert "suck(s)" during a pause in a cheer. Like when in C'vile they chant "U..V..A" (pause-insert sucks), before they repeat. I do it all the time and many folks find it amusing, yes, even opposing fans as they're not used to it. As for the 'Holes doing their cheer during our cheer, it happens all the time, just like the battle of the bands. I don't find anything about it rude, no matter whether started by cheerleaders or not.
I also think the "We are Duke" chant is kinda lame. Wish we could simply do a "let's go Duke" without it getting fast and distorted. Yes, there I did it, a knock on the current Crazies as we never did that back in the day;)

III
11-30-2008, 11:53 PM
I also think the "We are Duke" chant is kinda lame. Wish we could simply do a "let's go Duke" without it getting fast and distorted. Yes, there I did it, a knock on the current Crazies as we never did that back in the day;)

Amen. (from a current Crazie who can't count how many people he's told to slow down)

Ders24
12-01-2008, 12:44 AM
I have three thoughts:

1. The "We are [insert school name here]" cheer is lame. It was lame in its original iteration as a Penn State cheer, but then it was popularized by yet another schlocky, supposedly inspirational sports movie ("We Are Marshall"), making it even lamer. Duke fans can do better than knocking off someone else's mediocre calling card.
2. Announcing an upcoming cheer over the PA is lame. Duke is known for some of the most creative fans in the country, and we have to resort to that (also see above)? Pitiful.
3. There's a really good way to stop the visiting team's fans from drowning the home crowd: just flat out don't let it happen. To complain about "politeness" at a football game strikes me as a bit ridiculous.

Word. The only time "we are Duke" was, at least in my mind, acceptable (and pretty funny), was when we did it while beating Marquette in Maui (We are Marquette is their "main" cheer, or so it seemed from watching that game).

CathyCA
12-01-2008, 12:56 AM
in the second half when they got that tar - heels response cheer going, I got a pretty good 3rd part of the cheer started in response -

tar -- heels -- SUCK going in Section 27.


Yes, you did, and it was a fun response cheer, especially to the two boorish unc girls sitting behind me. In addition to being loudly obnoxious in their light blue fandom, the two knew NOTHING about football.

devildeac
12-01-2008, 09:27 AM
A couple other ways to overcome their "noise" would be for our PA announcer to start an announcement or series of them everytime the mindless ones started their chant. Our band playing LOUDLY would also drown them out. I thank the alumni band for performing but DUMB with 100-125 members AND several thousand students would help, too. Oh, and BTW, where were all those students who "live in the area" that were supposedly journeying to the game as promised by one of our posters/students prior to Thanksgiving? My suggestion would be to make this game the Saturday before Thanksgiving if we had the option/choice and schedule an OOC game or a different ACC foe after Thanksgiving.

Scorp4me
12-01-2008, 10:15 AM
Let's just size up some of the problems we have.

First off we have a much smaller base of fans to pull from than the state schools like UNC or NCSU. So when things go wrong it affects us more.

A game near the holiday kept a ton of the students away and to their credit they have done a much better job this year than any year in the past I can remember.

Nasty weather, cold and expecting rain I'm sure kept some people at home. Again I know it kept UNC fans at home too, but it's a bigger pot.

Our cheerleaders are limited. Don't mean that in a bad way, they do an amazing job considering what they are allowed to do. But every other squad in the conference is allowed to do more than they are. They tumble some and great cheers, but no stunts of any kind, no guys, and for much of the game they are spread all around the stadium where it's hard to actually lead and begin a cheer.

Our band is very small. Again I know they are limited, I believe they do not have the support or resources that other schools provide, but it is what it is. I hate we have to use speakers just to have our band heard.

Lack of winning. It'll change, it has changed, but it's kept alot of fans at home and it won't change overnight.

As was already mentioned I really wished they would have done the "Let's Go Duke" chant. Would have worked so much better.

And last, unfortunately as someone mentioned before, simply beating Carolina would not have shut them up. Anyone who lives in this state knows that. It is the entitlement of Carolina fans that I hate the most. They expect to beat Duke in football I understand that. But they'd also expect to be OK or TX. Hope to beat them sure, but they expect it with every fiber in their soul? And when they don't something is wrong with the universe. Hope to beat Duke in basketball, heck this year even expect it if you want. But they think something is wrong with the universe if they don't. And no amount of losses will change it. They have the shortest memory of any group of fans I've ever met.

Duke had a chance on the last play of at least 4 games this year. Missed a field goal at Wake, had a touch down called back at Northwestern, had an interception at Tech, and had another one at Carolina. And we'd have never needed it at Carolina if it were not for some calls that definately could have gone our way. I cannot wait til football season next year! I've been optomistic before, but never this excited. Now when's the last time we could say that!

du_bb1
12-01-2008, 10:43 AM
a bit off topic... why was there a carowhina alum tent set up on the grass in K-Ville----????

been to games Knoxville, Madison Wi, Auburn---pretty sure have never seen the opposing school allowed to set up alum tent on campus????

davekay1971
12-01-2008, 10:47 AM
Not classless.

And we really really shouldn't have cheers announced by the PA system. Why not have a cheerleader hold up a sign that says "We Are" then another hold up the "Duke" sign? You know, like a real football school. Having the PA guy do it is kind of junior high stuff.

As for the Carolina cheerleaders, they can do two things in life: (1) direct cheers with pom poms, and (2) do that running in place while clapping their pom poms thing. Don't take that away from them.

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-01-2008, 10:50 AM
a bit off topic... why was there a carowhina alum tent set up on the grass in K-Ville----????

been to games Knoxville, Madison Wi, Auburn---pretty sure have never seen the opposing school allowed to set up alum tent on campus????
Money?

How was the turn out for the Iron Duke BBQ? I thought it was supposed to be located in that area.

blazindw
12-01-2008, 10:59 AM
a bit off topic... why was there a carowhina alum tent set up on the grass in K-Ville----????

been to games Knoxville, Madison Wi, Auburn---pretty sure have never seen the opposing school allowed to set up alum tent on campus????

I would've booted them.

CDu
12-01-2008, 11:00 AM
Classless is cheering when someone on the other team gets hurt. Classless is actively rooting for another player to get hurt. Classless is taunting a child during or after a game.

You have to realize that cheering "Tar... Heel" is just a cheer. Just like our cheer is just a cheer. The cheerleaders lead the cheers to pump up their team and their fans. Why WOULDN'T your fans and cheerleaders try to drown out the other team's cheers? That's (theoretically at least) the entire point of having cheerleaders.

It's annoying that the Tarheels could realistically try to drown out our cheers at our home. But that's because we simply don't do a good enough job of selling tickets to Duke fans as opposed to Carolina fans. That's just the reality of our situation. It's frustrating, but it is in no way classless on their part.

Slackerb
12-01-2008, 11:53 AM
And Cutcliffe was saying that TOB needs to chirp this year, because it may be his last....

I love Duke through and through, but asking if this is classless and comments of politeness and being good guests just make me laugh. It's football...and if you want to win like the big boys, realize that these types of actions (PA announcing cheers, people pouting because they got outcheered, not defending your home turf because it's raining, etc.) is quite bush league.

It reminds me of the whine and cheese gang, and its sad that Tarheel fans, which are some of the worst in ACC football, could pull off something like this...

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-01-2008, 12:00 PM
Classless is cheering when someone on the other team gets hurt. Classless is actively rooting for another player to get hurt. Classless is taunting a child during or after a game.

You have to realize that cheering "Tar... Heel" is just a cheer. Just like our cheer is just a cheer. The cheerleaders lead the cheers to pump up their team and their fans. Why WOULDN'T your fans and cheerleaders try to drown out the other team's cheers? That's (theoretically at least) the entire point of having cheerleaders.

It's annoying that the Tarheels could realistically try to drown out our cheers at our home. But that's because we simply don't do a good enough job of selling tickets to Duke fans as opposed to Carolina fans. That's just the reality of our situation. It's frustrating, but it is in no way classless on their part.

It's not that we did a poor job of selling tickets; our football program had become embarrassing. This year has been like a giant fan blowing in a massive stream of fresh air infused with oxygen. Coach Cutcliffe and the new team performance are winning over even the fans who have become afraid to hope because their hopes had been dashed so much, for so long...

It's time we quit citing all the reasons Duke fans can't be as effective as the fans for Carolina, State or the other programs with high visibility. I see that point of view as related to the one that says Duke can't recruit really good football players because the academic standards are too high.

Want to change things in the stands? When the tickets go on sale after the first of the year, buy up the season tickets so that there's not much room left for visitors' fans.

The demand is there now for good football cheers and routines rather than recycled basketball cheers; it's time for our cheerleaders to step up just like the football team has done this year. Maybe some of our alumnae cheerleaders get in the mix and help...... I'm talking about the gals who cheered in the sixties and seventies when we still had good football cheers. And while the cheerleaders undergo this renaissance, I hope they, too, will do away with the black uniforms and weather accessories and get back to the real blue.

One last thing while I'm on the soap box..... I think the the cheer "We are Duke" is VERY appropriate. Coach Cutcliffe was right on the money on this one. As football fans, we've lost track of our storied past and for years could envision only a dismal future. Too many Duke fans have sounded like apologists when they'd talk about football.... if they even talked football. It may sound trite to cheer "We Are Duke," but maybe we need to be reminded who we really are.

Jarhead
12-01-2008, 12:22 PM
My understanding is that there is some form of semi-official reach out program that actually sponsored that tent. I believe the Duke Alumni Association may have been involved. Can anybody confirm that, please?

On the cheer incident -- I have no problem with the UNC cheerleaders leading the effort. In fact, it was a rather weak effort on both sides when I compare it to the atmosphere when I was a Trinity freshman. Shenanigans of that sort would commence an hour or more before game time with very high intensity and decibels from both sides. It was as intense thought the Wade years, and on through the Murray years, but it went into decline after that. Or maybe it just moved indoors when Bubas came to campus.