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View Full Version : Lance Thomas' Inside Offensive Game



Mudge
11-30-2008, 01:43 AM
Yes, Lance had his best offensive game ever, yesterday; yes, Lance, after a rough start, appears to have improved his FT shooting (very high arc on those FTs, but physicists will tell you that, from a theoretical perspective, you want to shoot with more arc than most players-- like Shaq, for example-- normally use); however, I have noticed that Lance still gets blocked on inside shots down under the basket an awful lot for someone who is 6'8" (and appears able to jump well enough), sometimes by players smaller than him.

Why is this? Is he bringing the ball down too low? Is he getting of the floor too slowly? Is he telegraphing his moves? Is he making too many fake attempts, and allowing defenders to collapse on him, instead of just going right up strongly with the shot? Maybe it's his footwork, or his repetoire of inside moves? Or is he not a good jumper? He often uses multiple head and ball fakes in an attempt to get the defender off his feet, yet even then, Lance is often still blocked on the eventual shot. He seems like he should be big enough, athletic enough, and strong enough that he should be able to power through some of these block attempts and score, but often he ends up with a blocked shot (or a jump ball)-- any ideas on the reason?

mo.st.dukie
11-30-2008, 02:07 AM
I haven't really noticed him getting blocked too many times although he does get the ball stripped from him occassionally. His ability to catch and finish is a lot better than last year though, a lot better. I still think there are times where he pump fakes when he should just go right up with it but he brings the ball down. I haven't seen it from him a whole lot though compared to last season. This year he is catching the ball and able to finish strong with either a dunk or layup even with a lot of contact. It's not going to be this instant thing where he's automatically able to do everything perfectly, it's a process and there will be times when he reverts back to his old ways but little by little (or a lot in the case of Friday's game) he'll improve. Overall, he has become so much better this year.

davekay1971
11-30-2008, 09:23 AM
I'm so thrilled with Lance's increased productivity and confidence that I can't bring myself to quibble about anything with him. He makes a great contrast in size, speed, and style to Zoubs and Plumlee. With Zoubs and Thomas both playing well, we can adjust our lineup readily to give matchup problems to our competition.

Jumbo
11-30-2008, 10:34 AM
Sounds like you're describing Lance Thomas from his first two seasons, not this year.

pfrduke
11-30-2008, 10:56 AM
Yes, Lance had his best offensive game ever, yesterday; yes, Lance, after a rough start, appears to have improved his FT shooting (very high arc on those FTs, but physicists will tell you that, from a theoretical perspective, you want to shoot with more arc than most players-- like Shaq, for example-- normally use); however, I have noticed that Lance still gets blocked on inside shots down under the basket an awful lot for someone who is 6'8" (and appears able to jump well enough), sometimes by players smaller than him.

Why is this? Is he bringing the ball down too low? Is he getting of the floor too slowly? Is he telegraphing his moves? Is he making too many fake attempts, and allowing defenders to collapse on him, instead of just going right up strongly with the shot? Maybe it's his footwork, or his repetoire of inside moves? Or is he not a good jumper? He often uses multiple head and ball fakes in an attempt to get the defender off his feet, yet even then, Lance is often still blocked on the eventual shot. He seems like he should be big enough, athletic enough, and strong enough that he should be able to power through some of these block attempts and score, but often he ends up with a blocked shot (or a jump ball)-- any ideas on the reason?

Here's a fun fact - Lance Thomas has had 2 field goal attempts blocked this year. One was by Zach Gibson of Michigan, who is 6'10". The other was by Kenith Ward of Georgia Southern, who is 6'6" (and who recorded another block in that game as well). So apparently, when you say "often" and "an awful lot," you mean twice in seven games and 34 field goal attempts, and when you say "sometimes by players smaller than him," you mean once. Perhaps your perception from the past couple seasons is clouding your appraisal of this season's first seven games?

As an aside, Lance had a finish in traffic on a post move that took him into a double/triple team on Friday where he created space, went up strong, and scored the bucket. It was a move he would not have successfully completed in the last two seasons, and showed the development in both his footwork and his strength.

Mudge
11-30-2008, 01:04 PM
Here's a fun fact - Lance Thomas has had 2 field goal attempts blocked this year. One was by Zach Gibson of Michigan, who is 6'10". The other was by Kenith Ward of Georgia Southern, who is 6'6" (and who recorded another block in that game as well). So apparently, when you say "often" and "an awful lot," you mean twice in seven games and 34 field goal attempts, and when you say "sometimes by players smaller than him," you mean once. Perhaps your perception from the past couple seasons is clouding your appraisal of this season's first seven games?

As an aside, Lance had a finish in traffic on a post move that took him into a double/triple team on Friday where he created space, went up strong, and scored the bucket. It was a move he would not have successfully completed in the last two seasons, and showed the development in both his footwork and his strength.

Fair point about past years clouding current appraisals-- is it possible that in counting the instances this year, you have included only those times when Lance was blocked, but did not draw the foul? I perceived that it had happened more than twice this year, but perhaps a couple of those times Lance drew a foul, and therefore the block did not "count" as a block. (Though it is still somewhat disconcerting to have a smaller player completely snuff the shot of a power forward under the basket, when you would instead be hoping for a 3-point play, as the hated Hansbrough is often able to pull off.)

SupaDave
11-30-2008, 01:07 PM
Here's a fun fact - Lance Thomas has had 2 field goal attempts blocked this year. One was by Zach Gibson of Michigan, who is 6'10". The other was by Kenith Ward of Georgia Southern, who is 6'6" (and who recorded another block in that game as well). So apparently, when you say "often" and "an awful lot," you mean twice in seven games and 34 field goal attempts, and when you say "sometimes by players smaller than him," you mean once. Perhaps your perception from the past couple seasons is clouding your appraisal of this season's first seven games?

As an aside, Lance had a finish in traffic on a post move that took him into a double/triple team on Friday where he created space, went up strong, and scored the bucket. It was a move he would not have successfully completed in the last two seasons, and showed the development in both his footwork and his strength.

Just plain excellent research there...

Not even sure how one could find fault right now. His free throw shooting is immaculate at this point in time as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if he shoots them granny style as long as they go in.

Lance has always been vocal and with his development we should only expect greater things as his confidence AND strength develops.

Just think - next year we just might be debating Lance's draft position if he keeps this up.

dukelifer
11-30-2008, 01:25 PM
Just plain excellent research there...

Not even sure how one could find fault right now. His free throw shooting is immaculate at this point in time as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if he shoots them granny style as long as they go in.

Lance has always been vocal and with his development we should only expect greater things as his confidence AND strength develops.

Just think - next year we just might be debating Lance's draft position if he keeps this up.

If Lance stays perfect the rest of the year averaging 20+, we will be debating his draft position this year :D

Jumbo
11-30-2008, 01:48 PM
Just think - next year we just might be debating Lance's draft position if he keeps this up.

Uh, let's not go crazy here ...

DukeBlood
11-30-2008, 02:13 PM
Just plain excellent research there...

Not even sure how one could find fault right now. His free throw shooting is immaculate at this point in time as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if he shoots them granny style as long as they go in.

Lance has always been vocal and with his development we should only expect greater things as his confidence AND strength develops.

Just think - next year we just might be debating Lance's draft position if he keeps this up.

Lance has been great for sure. Without a doubt the biggest surprise this year.

I have been wrong with lance so far. I looked up his numbers and he is averaging 9.3 PPG and 4.3 RPG doing this in 18 MPG. If he can keep this up along with continual improvement from Brian and Miles then this team may be able to be a decent post team.

As far as him being drafted. I dont see that happening. He has taking advantage of put-backs, fast breaks and other easy opportunities. Its not very often he has just completely schooled his man, Though it's happened.

SupaDave
11-30-2008, 02:28 PM
I hear ya Jumbo but we've got to see who comes out this year. Not just that but his motor could be an NBA must have.

I mean - no one could have told me Shavlik Randolph would have even made an NBA roster - but there he is - and performing.

These are HUGE what ifs but with another good off-season and a 15 footer the guy could get some looks - not necessarily get drafted.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-30-2008, 02:38 PM
Is there any possibility that he's had some good coaching along with his good health? ;)

vb5678
11-30-2008, 02:55 PM
I would also like to mention that getting blocked by players big and small is a fact of life in post play. I only have stats from the NBA, but lets take the example of Dwight Howard, a 6-11 beast with nearly unmatched athleticism who is perhaps the best center in the NBA. According to 82games.com, he gets blocked on 10% of his shot attempts, translating to a little more than one block against per game. If a player with his abilities gets blocked that often, I don't think I'd be too unhappy with Lance's 2 blocks against in 7 games so far (although to be fair, Howard has to go up against much better post defenses than Lance has so far this year).

Jumbo
11-30-2008, 03:00 PM
I hear ya Jumbo but we've got to see who comes out this year. Not just that but his motor could be an NBA must have.

I mean - no one could have told me Shavlik Randolph would have even made an NBA roster - but there he is - and performing.

These are HUGE what ifs but with another good off-season and a 15 footer the guy could get some looks - not necessarily get drafted.

Shavlik Randolph was 6'10", never healthy at Duke and a top-rated H.S. recruit. Lance is a skinny 6'8", making him a perimeter player at the NBA level, and he's never shown any perimeter skills. Can we please stop talking about Lance's NBA prospects after one good performance against Duquesne and focus on how his improvement can help Duke?

pfrduke
11-30-2008, 09:37 PM
Fair point about past years clouding current appraisals-- is it possible that in counting the instances this year, you have included only those times when Lance was blocked, but did not draw the foul? I perceived that it had happened more than twice this year, but perhaps a couple of those times Lance drew a foul, and therefore the block did not "count" as a block. (Though it is still somewhat disconcerting to have a smaller player completely snuff the shot of a power forward under the basket, when you would instead be hoping for a 3-point play, as the hated Hansbrough is often able to pull off.)

That's entirely possible. The game log doesn't reflect how a player ends up at the free throw line. Although that in and of itself merits two points: 1) it's hard to blame a guy for not getting a three-point play when he gets fouled, as fouling generally interferes with making the basket; 2) if the worst thing we can say about Thomas' game this year is that he doesn't convert and-ones as well as Hansbrough, who's probably better at doing that than any other player in the country, we should be extremely pleased with the way Thomas has played.

Ok, more research. The game log doesn't reflect how he got fouled, but it does show who fouled him. Those players would be: Travis Sligh, Presbyterian (6'4", 210); Kyle Jazwiecki, Presbyterian (6'8", 220) - note, this was an and-one; Antoine Johnson, Georgia Southern (6'0", 190); Trumaine Pearson, Georgia Southern (6'8", 225); Sandy Perry, Georgia Southern (6'7", 220) - twice; Kahiem Seawright, URI (6'8", 235); CJ Lee, Michigan (6'0", 180); Manny Harris, Michigan (6'5", 185); Brian Qvale, Montana (6'11", 245); Damian Saunders, Duquesne (6'7", 210); Jason Duty, Duquesne (6'1", 185) - note, this was an and-one; BJ Monteiro, Duquesne (6'5", 195) - twice, one was an and-one, the other was the intentional and-two. No game log for the Southern Illinois game.

Not counting SIU, Thomas has been fouled 14 times. 7 of those is by players essentially his size or bigger. 4 were and-ones, which means 28.6% of the time he gets fouled he converts the attempt. I have no idea what the stats are for other inside players, but 30% conversion rate when you get fouled strikes me as good, if not very good.

Now, it's possible that one of the smaller guys who fouled him "completely snuff[ed] out" his shot; of course, it's hard to blame Lance too much for this, given that they needed to foul him in order to be able to accomplish this.

speedevil
11-30-2008, 10:54 PM
Uh, let's not go crazy here ...

maybe he goes pro after this year

bludvlman
12-01-2008, 12:33 AM
He is scoring now b/c he is going up with power and got stronger in the offseason.

That said: Has Lance Thomas ever made a shot from the field that isn't a lay up or dunk? I don't think I've ever seen him make a jumper.

heyman25
12-01-2008, 12:59 AM
If he could add an 8 to 12 ft jump shot that would be great for the team. I think this was the player they saw in High School and for whatever reason he is breaking out in his 3rd season.

RainingThrees
12-01-2008, 01:12 AM
If he could add an 8 to 12 ft jump shot that would be great for the team. I think this was the player they saw in High School and for whatever reason he is breaking out in his 3rd season.

The reason is easy. Not too many guys were as tall as he was in high school and his lack of strength was not a problem in high school. In college he is even in height and was weaker until this year.

camion
12-01-2008, 08:53 AM
One might also mention that he was injured last year.

SMO
12-01-2008, 09:25 AM
He is scoring now b/c he is going up with power and got stronger in the offseason.

That said: Has Lance Thomas ever made a shot from the field that isn't a lay up or dunk? I don't think I've ever seen him make a jumper.

He had a sweet 17 footer against VCU in the tourney a few years back. Looked like he had done it a million times even though we rarely see it.

jv001
12-01-2008, 09:26 AM
maybe he goes pro after this year
Yeh along with Marty.

roywhite
12-01-2008, 09:29 AM
If he could add an 8 to 12 ft jump shot that would be great for the team. I think this was the player they saw in High School and for whatever reason he is breaking out in his 3rd season.

Some guys just take a little longer to hit their stride---physical development and confidence are usually the biggest factors. Lance seems a lot more comfortable and assertive this year.

Going back to the late 1980's, Kevin Strickland, though he played guard, had a somewhat similar progression. He was highly regarded coming in, but really struggled his first two years. In his junior and senior seasons, he played well and was a quality ACC player.

Rudy
12-01-2008, 10:30 AM
maybe he goes pro after this year

I've always liked Lance for his puppy-dog enthusiasm, but in the past that came with the same puppy dog clumsy around the hoop. What's changed is his ability to make layups. He always had a quick strong move to the basket; this year he's making the shots instead of missing them. He has never complained that I know of about being a role player. He is alert to opportunity, hustling to put himself in position to get and capitalize on opportunity. Other teams will probably continue to sleep on him because he's not a designed part of the offense, so I hope and expect for him and for the team that he will continue to succeed in what he's doing, which is getting open for passes at the hoop and offensive rebounding for put backs.

But 20 points one time in his 2+ years will not have too many pro teams clamoring for him to leave school early for the draft.

greybeard
12-01-2008, 10:43 AM
What was the most satisfying and promising Duke victory in the last, oh I don't know, let's say three years? Whose play stood out in that victory as being key? Okay, it was Lance against UNC at their place. You might recall that he repeatedly made terrific receptions and finishes on the move against Hansbrough in that game, only to have the promise that that game portended dashed by what we were later to learn was a broken hand that he continued to play with that hampered his ability to finish at the rim. Probably don't remember that, eh? You guys are killin me.

MChambers
12-01-2008, 11:55 AM
What was the most satisfying and promising Duke victory in the last, oh I don't know, let's say three years? Whose play stood out in that victory as being key? Okay, it was Lance against UNC at their place. You might recall that he repeatedly made terrific receptions and finishes on the move against Hansbrough in that game, only to have the promise that that game portended dashed by what we were later to learn was a broken hand that he continued to play with that hampered his ability to finish at the rim. Probably don't remember that, eh? You guys are killin me.

It wasn't a broken hand, only a torn tendon on his pinkie finger. I'm sure it didn't help, but let's not overdo it here, Greybeard. I think being bigger and stronger is probably more significant here.

greybeard
12-01-2008, 01:23 PM
It wasn't a broken hand, only a torn tendon on his pinkie finger. I'm sure it didn't help, but let's not overdo it here, Greybeard. I think being bigger and stronger is probably more significant here.

Bigger and stronger are good. He was, however, getting to the rim with the thing towards the end of last year and missing. How strong do you need to be to make it from short?

But you are right, bigger and stronger should not be overlooked when looking at Lance's improved play, especially if he has any more games in the same universe as the last. :o

Rudy
12-01-2008, 02:05 PM
He was, however, getting to the rim with the thing towards the end of last year and missing.
He had this problem from the first Blue and White game he was in. I remember thinking, wow, that kid is quick and strong to the rim for a freshman, when he starts making those layups he'll score some.

Even without a jump shot or dribble move his continued offensive output will help other players offensively, too. His defensive man will not be able to double team others so quickly and a defensive blockout concentration on him might make more room for Kyle or G on the offensive boards.

With marked improvement from LT and Z we might even be able to outrebound good teams. Last year's team had 3 more total rebounds than its opponents for the whole season.

greybeard
12-01-2008, 02:11 PM
On the other hand, McChambers, let's not go underestimating the adverse impact that that torn pinky tendon had on Lance's play. A tackle for I think it was a D-III school had one of those this year and cut his pinky off to play effectively against a hated rival, right? No, it's true, you could look it up, I swear. Now that's the kind of grit we need around here from Lance, don't you think. ;)

MChambers
12-01-2008, 02:27 PM
On the other hand, McChambers, let's not go underestimating the adverse impact that that torn pinky tendon had on Lance's play. A tackle for I think it was a D-III school had one of those this year and cut his pinky off to play effectively against a hated rival, right? No, it's true, you could look it up, I swear. Now that's the kind of grit we need around here from Lance, don't you think. ;)

That kind of grit, yes, but maybe he could bite off Hansbrough's pinkie.;)

Skitzle
12-02-2008, 03:11 PM
Ran some numbers. Thought I'd share.

Last year through seven games the "5" position (Zoubek and Thomas only) stats: 33min 9.8 pts 6.5 Rebs
At the end of the season: 29min 8.3 pts 6.7Rebs

This year through 7 and adding plumlee:
41 minutest 17.5 pts 10.3Rebs

Those numbers may all decline in ACC play, but its a MUCH improved center positoin.

Props to Lance who is the most improved player on this team.
Props to Zoubek for never getting down on himself
Looking forward to Plumlee learning the position.

Go Duke!