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willywoody
11-06-2008, 11:25 AM
DBR is right about this, get out and support the team. As a former season ticket holder I never had any problem finding someone to take my tickets even for an exhibition game. If you can't find someone turn them back in to the Iron Dukes or give them to the DBR to auction. If you know soon enough in the year, you can always donate them to another charity but then you run more of a risk of putting an opponent's fan in those seats. I'm sure the church youth basketball team or the middle school players would love to attend a game. How about the local boys club or Big Brothers?

I always found the exhibition games and games against the smaller teams to be very exciting. Sure the score might not be close but its the time when Coach K experiments more with the line-ups and the walk ons, and those further down the rotation, get more time. Those players hustle as hard if not harder in these games and when they get a bucket or a steal its a big deal, as they might not have a chance to do that later in the season. Sometimes these smaller teams will have a magical game, have their star player go off, or play some killer defense that takes a while for Duke to figure out. That can be just as interesting and exciting as a "big" game.

As a former student, I would think it would be great to be able to walk up and have a decent seat, not having to camp out or wait hours in line as happens later in the year. I would think it would be exciting to see that walk on from your freshman dorm score. They've already greatly reduced the undergraduate student section since "back in the day." I have no doubt they will do it again if the seats stay empty.

brianl
11-06-2008, 11:40 AM
As someone who has no affiliation to Duke other than being an avid fan and who only has the ability to make the minimum Iron Duke donation, I find it frustrating that those who have season tickets don't make them available on the many avenues available.

I've been a season football ticket holder for 4 years (this year I have 8 GA seats) and drive over 3 1/2 hours to Durham on game days. I've shared and had fellow fans share GA tickets when I wanted to bring a church group etc. I know there's a huge difference in football and basketball, but the spirit should be the same.

I know many people who would give anything in the world for an opportunity to see Duke play at home, especially when the students are there. I finally was able to get tickets to the Duquesne game this year. I'll miss the kids, but at least get to see my team play at Cameron for the first time in about 12 years.

devilish
11-06-2008, 12:47 PM
I know many people who would give anything in the world for an opportunity to see Duke play at home, especially when the students are there.

Tell them to drive to Durham and stand outside of Cameron. They will find tickets. Unless it's a game against the big 4 or a top 10 matchup, no problem.

DukeCO2009
11-06-2008, 12:54 PM
I think I speak for most students when I say that I'm a bit peeved by the yearly early season whining about attendence. I understand your concern, and to a level I empathize with you--I remember coming to games as a kid and feeling like I had been cheated when the student section wasn't 100% full. I thought that the students should show up to entertain me, and I feel like most alums--or whoever else sits up top--feel the same way. Bottom line, though, is that this discussion happens every November, and the "problem" is inevitably solved, at the latest, by the time conference play gets going. The reason fewer students show up to the early games--exhibitions, preseason games, crappy OOC games--is because it's just not great baskebtall.

That's not to say that we want close games, because we don't; it should be obvious, though, that the incentive to trek to West from East or Central, for instance, is much less when the only suspense surrounding the game is whether or not we'll hit 100. We also, believe it or not, have academic obligations. Would I stay up an extra two or three hours studying so I could see us play State, Wake, or even someone like Princeton? Sure--but a game against a DII school that counts for nothing? Not so much. That doesn't mean we don't support the team, it doesn't mean we're getting complacent, and it doesn't mean we don't relish the opportunity to get free tickets to the best arena on the planet. All it means is that being a Duke student forces you to prioritize.

I hate to be so blunt, alums/boosters/etc., but we attend games neither for your amusement nor with intent of enhancing your overall Cameron experience. While a select few might show up just to get on TV, the overwhelming majority of us come because we want to watch a basketball game. Some basketball games have more entertainment potential than others, and that's why the stands aren't quite as full during the first few weeks of the season as they are come winter. If you're disappointed by the student turnout, why not try making some noise yourselves to pick up the slack? It's usually like a ghost town up there. I apologize if I seem curt--I'm just trying to give it to you straight. Moral of the story? Take a deep breath and simmer down a bit--I guarantee you that we'll have the place rockin' in due time.

Go Duke

Kedsy
11-06-2008, 01:29 PM
I think I speak for most students when I say that I'm a bit peeved by the yearly early season whining about attendence. I understand your concern, and to a level I empathize with you--I remember coming to games as a kid and feeling like I had been cheated when the student section wasn't 100% full. I thought that the students should show up to entertain me, and I feel like most alums--or whoever else sits up top--feel the same way. Bottom line, though, is that this discussion happens every November, and the "problem" is inevitably solved, at the latest, by the time conference play gets going. The reason fewer students show up to the early games--exhibitions, preseason games, crappy OOC games--is because it's just not great baskebtall.

That's not to say that we want close games, because we don't; it should be obvious, though, that the incentive to trek to West from East or Central, for instance, is much less when the only suspense surrounding the game is whether or not we'll hit 100. We also, believe it or not, have academic obligations. Would I stay up an extra two or three hours studying so I could see us play State, Wake, or even someone like Princeton? Sure--but a game against a DII school that counts for nothing? Not so much. That doesn't mean we don't support the team, it doesn't mean we're getting complacent, and it doesn't mean we don't relish the opportunity to get free tickets to the best arena on the planet. All it means is that being a Duke student forces you to prioritize.

I hate to be so blunt, alums/boosters/etc., but we attend games neither for your amusement nor with intent of enhancing your overall Cameron experience. While a select few might show up just to get on TV, the overwhelming majority of us come because we want to watch a basketball game. Some basketball games have more entertainment potential than others, and that's why the stands aren't quite as full during the first few weeks of the season as they are come winter. If you're disappointed by the student turnout, why not try making some noise yourselves to pick up the slack? It's usually like a ghost town up there. I apologize if I seem curt--I'm just trying to give it to you straight. Moral of the story? Take a deep breath and simmer down a bit--I guarantee you that we'll have the place rockin' in due time.

Go Duke

I think you may be forgetting that the definition of an "alum" is someone who used to attend the school. And most of us are not so old that we don't remember what it was like to be a student. When I was at Duke we had academic obligations too, but we ate up every opportunity to see the team play -- exhibitions, cupcake-non-conference games, intrasquad scrimmages, even the all-too-rare open practice. Sure, we wanted to see great basketball, but the priority was seeing our team in action.

Also, I doubt very many people care about this issue because they want you to entertain or amuse them. The fact is that a full, active, sarcastic, and airplane-engine-loud Duke crowd is a key component for a successful Duke team. If you become apathetic or absent, Duke basketball loses an important weapon and becomes less than what it was.

Finally, in almost every endeavor, if someone tries to coast and then turn it on when it's important, they're never as good as they would be if they'd given maximum effort the entire time. This is something I've learned from gaining experience and perspective over time. Lots of college arenas "rock" but there's no place like Cameron. All we want is for it to stay that way.

CMS2478
11-06-2008, 01:36 PM
I think I speak for most students when I say that I'm a bit peeved by the yearly early season whining about attendence. I understand your concern, and to a level I empathize with you--I remember coming to games as a kid and feeling like I had been cheated when the student section wasn't 100% full. I thought that the students should show up to entertain me, and I feel like most alums--or whoever else sits up top--feel the same way. Bottom line, though, is that this discussion happens every November, and the "problem" is inevitably solved, at the latest, by the time conference play gets going. The reason fewer students show up to the early games--exhibitions, preseason games, crappy OOC games--is because it's just not great baskebtall.

That's not to say that we want close games, because we don't; it should be obvious, though, that the incentive to trek to West from East or Central, for instance, is much less when the only suspense surrounding the game is whether or not we'll hit 100. We also, believe it or not, have academic obligations. Would I stay up an extra two or three hours studying so I could see us play State, Wake, or even someone like Princeton? Sure--but a game against a DII school that counts for nothing? Not so much. That doesn't mean we don't support the team, it doesn't mean we're getting complacent, and it doesn't mean we don't relish the opportunity to get free tickets to the best arena on the planet. All it means is that being a Duke student forces you to prioritize.

I hate to be so blunt, alums/boosters/etc., but we attend games neither for your amusement nor with intent of enhancing your overall Cameron experience. While a select few might show up just to get on TV, the overwhelming majority of us come because we want to watch a basketball game. Some basketball games have more entertainment potential than others, and that's why the stands aren't quite as full during the first few weeks of the season as they are come winter. If you're disappointed by the student turnout, why not try making some noise yourselves to pick up the slack? It's usually like a ghost town up there. I apologize if I seem curt--I'm just trying to give it to you straight. Moral of the story? Take a deep breath and simmer down a bit--I guarantee you that we'll have the place rockin' in due time.

Go Duke

Got to agree with him here, I was at the game last night and sat up at the top and it is frustrating to look around and I was the only standing, clapping, cheering, etc. But it is even more discouraging when those sitting around you act annoyed or act as though you are blocking their view bc you are standing. They also act like my cheering is ruining their experience. We are constantly calling out the students, let's call the upper level out occasionally.

willywoody
11-06-2008, 01:38 PM
If that's the prevailing student attitude DukeCO2009, I feel sorry for the team.

I don't care if the students are there or not, I just want someone in there making noise and supporting the team. There are a lot of reasons to see the early games, as I originally posted, and the lack of a line means the overall time commitment is much less.

If I hadn't gone to see Duke vs. the (fake) Russian squad in an exhibition I never would've seen Quinn make that incredible drive from the top of the key for that dunk over the 7 footers they had. (I added "fake Russian team" to denote it wasn't even the real Olympic squad but more of a mix of lesser players.) That's one of the greatest memories I have from Cameron and it was in an exhibition game.

I'm sure others here can give some more great memories from these "meaningless" games.

Turtleboy
11-06-2008, 01:42 PM
But it is even more discouraging when those sitting around you act annoyed or act as though you are blocking their view bc you are standing.As though? How can you not block the view of someone when you stand in front of them?

CMS2478
11-06-2008, 01:46 PM
As though? How can you not block the view of someone when you stand in front of them?

My point is that I am there to stand and cheer Duke basketball. If I am blocking you stand up and cheer a little yourself and you can see just fine. If it is an elder person who is unable to stand I would be more considerate, but the complaint I got was from a guy younger than I who was checking his Facebook account on his I-phone the entire game. :mad:

miramar
11-06-2008, 01:46 PM
I went to the first exhibition during Parents' Weekend, and the student section was full, with both students and parents in attendance. I was delighted to find out that I could jump up and down the entire game when Duke was on defense, which I think surprised my daughter.

I saw a lot of empty seats, but those were up by the rafters. Does Duke have some sort of system that allows season ticket holders to return tickets if they don't intend to use them? They could be resold, with proceeds going to sports, the Emily K Center, scholarships, etc.

While these early games may not be competitive, it gives your the chance to see the team and the new players, so it's a great opportunity. For example, I was impressed with Miles Plumlee, even against smaller competition, so that was a pleasant surprise.

Edouble
11-06-2008, 01:47 PM
I think I speak for most students when I say that I'm a bit peeved by the yearly early season whining about attendence. I understand your concern, and to a level I empathize with you--I remember coming to games as a kid and feeling like I had been cheated when the student section wasn't 100% full. I thought that the students should show up to entertain me, and I feel like most alums--or whoever else sits up top--feel the same way. Bottom line, though, is that this discussion happens every November, and the "problem" is inevitably solved, at the latest, by the time conference play gets going. The reason fewer students show up to the early games--exhibitions, preseason games, crappy OOC games--is because it's just not great baskebtall.

That's not to say that we want close games, because we don't; it should be obvious, though, that the incentive to trek to West from East or Central, for instance, is much less when the only suspense surrounding the game is whether or not we'll hit 100. We also, believe it or not, have academic obligations. Would I stay up an extra two or three hours studying so I could see us play State, Wake, or even someone like Princeton? Sure--but a game against a DII school that counts for nothing? Not so much. That doesn't mean we don't support the team, it doesn't mean we're getting complacent, and it doesn't mean we don't relish the opportunity to get free tickets to the best arena on the planet. All it means is that being a Duke student forces you to prioritize.

I hate to be so blunt, alums/boosters/etc., but we attend games neither for your amusement nor with intent of enhancing your overall Cameron experience. While a select few might show up just to get on TV, the overwhelming majority of us come because we want to watch a basketball game. Some basketball games have more entertainment potential than others, and that's why the stands aren't quite as full during the first few weeks of the season as they are come winter. If you're disappointed by the student turnout, why not try making some noise yourselves to pick up the slack? It's usually like a ghost town up there. I apologize if I seem curt--I'm just trying to give it to you straight. Moral of the story? Take a deep breath and simmer down a bit--I guarantee you that we'll have the place rockin' in due time.

Go Duke

It's a two hour game. Skip watching "The Hills", or go out partying at 9 instead of 7 on Saturday.

When I was at Duke, students were generally basketball crazy. Watching the development of the team from November to April (hopefully) is part of the experience and part of the fun. It is a rare privledge to be part of the 6th man, and maybe it's not for you. I just wish that the excitement and gratitude for the opportunity to watch Duke basketball for free in the best seats in the house was still a part of the Duke culture. "Work hard, play hard" was the culture when I was there, and the ball games were definitely part of the "play". There were many basketball "nuts" when I was there. The school is clearly different now, and while I can't rightfully tell people how to spend their four years at Duke, I am definitely saddened that a great part of the Duke experience, as I knew it, seems to be waning. The thing that separates Duke from Colombia, Princeton, Emory, UVA, etc... is that we have a perrenial Top 5 basketball program, and that's special.

It's not up to the upper bowl to make noise. The "Cameron Crazies" are the 6th man, and they sit in the lower bowl. The students get the good seats, and they get the regonition of and the responsibility for being the best student section in the country.

If you're only going to go for a game against a Big 4 or top 10 team, it seems like a lop-sided commitment to the team. Just as you would not have alums and boosters using you for entertainment value, it seems like that's how you are treating the team when you choose to participate when it's exciting and convenient to you.

Edouble
11-06-2008, 01:50 PM
I'm sure others here can give some more great memories from these "meaningless" games.

A great point. The "Red Light Special" and "You shot the Sheriff" chants, the latter which caused the player to laught too hard to attempt a decent free throw, against the "fake Australian team" with K-Mart jerseys, are still the examples I pull out when people ask me to tell them stories about the Duke student section.

DukeCO2009
11-06-2008, 01:52 PM
If that's the prevailing student attitude DukeCO2009, I feel sorry for the team.

I don't care if the students are there or not, I just want someone in there making noise and supporting the team. There are a lot of reasons to see the early games, as I originally posted, and the lack of a line means the overall time commitment is much less.

If I hadn't gone to see Duke vs. the (fake) Russian squad in an exhibition I never would've seen Quinn make that incredible drive from the top of the key for that dunk over the 7 footers they had. (I added "fake Russian team" to denote it wasn't even the real Olympic squad but more of a mix of lesser players.) That's one of the greatest memories I have from Cameron and it was in an exhibition game.

I'm sure others here can give some more great memories from these "meaningless" games.

Reread my post: I'm not at all saying that there's no reason to come to early season games. Hell, I've seen plenty of entertaining games that meant jack squat in the overall scheme of the season. One of my favorite Duke memories was seeing us hold Army to 12 (mayeb it was 14) first half points about 10 years ago sometime in late November--I'll never forget that defensive performance as long as I live. All I'm trying to get across is that our lives don't revolve around basketball--we don't sit in our dorm rooms trying to think up clever ideas for signs and chants in our spare time. As I said, if you think the students aren't doing a good job, give us a helping hand up there.

loran16
11-06-2008, 01:54 PM
As a senior, I understand the attendance gripe. My sophomore year was terrible (The year after JJ&Shelden left, the 06-07 Season) with regards to attendance.

Last year was much better, and I expect this year to be better than that.

You all are being way too quick to judge. For starters this was the 2nd exhibition game. Second it was during a wednesday on november.

I myself didn't go, I had a job that I had to be at Wednesday night. Yes, I could've probably gotten off, but then I wouldn't be able to get off when we actually have regular season games. I'll prioritize in this case.

I believe the fans will support the team in Cameron during the regular season. But a 2nd exhibition game, 1 and a half weeks after the last one in the middle of a week? Uhhhh obviously attendance was going to suck.

6th Man
11-06-2008, 01:54 PM
I think I speak for most students when I say that I'm a bit peeved by the yearly early season whining about attendence. I understand your concern, and to a level I empathize with you--I remember coming to games as a kid and feeling like I had been cheated when the student section wasn't 100% full. I thought that the students should show up to entertain me, and I feel like most alums--or whoever else sits up top--feel the same way. Bottom line, though, is that this discussion happens every November, and the "problem" is inevitably solved, at the latest, by the time conference play gets going. The reason fewer students show up to the early games--exhibitions, preseason games, crappy OOC games--is because it's just not great baskebtall.

That's not to say that we want close games, because we don't; it should be obvious, though, that the incentive to trek to West from East or Central, for instance, is much less when the only suspense surrounding the game is whether or not we'll hit 100. We also, believe it or not, have academic obligations. Would I stay up an extra two or three hours studying so I could see us play State, Wake, or even someone like Princeton? Sure--but a game against a DII school that counts for nothing? Not so much. That doesn't mean we don't support the team, it doesn't mean we're getting complacent, and it doesn't mean we don't relish the opportunity to get free tickets to the best arena on the planet. All it means is that being a Duke student forces you to prioritize.

I hate to be so blunt, alums/boosters/etc., but we attend games neither for your amusement nor with intent of enhancing your overall Cameron experience. While a select few might show up just to get on TV, the overwhelming majority of us come because we want to watch a basketball game. Some basketball games have more entertainment potential than others, and that's why the stands aren't quite as full during the first few weeks of the season as they are come winter. If you're disappointed by the student turnout, why not try making some noise yourselves to pick up the slack? It's usually like a ghost town up there. I apologize if I seem curt--I'm just trying to give it to you straight. Moral of the story? Take a deep breath and simmer down a bit--I guarantee you that we'll have the place rockin' in due time.

Go Duke

If the students don't want to or can't turn out for ALL games then Duke needs a policy to allow people that would love to be there the ability to get into a game. I guarantee you there are plenty of people that would be more than happy to take up those empty seats. Maybe Duke needs a standyby plan where if the student section isn't filled 5 minutes before tip-off, folks can purchase the right to come in and take those spots in the bleachers. It's a shame that one of the top sporting venues in the country can have empty seats for any game regardless if it is an ACC or exhibition contest. I'm not complaining about cheers or how loud the students get, but Cameron is way too hard to get into to allow empty seats in the bleachers or upstairs. Should never happen.

Kedsy
11-06-2008, 01:57 PM
All I'm trying to get across is that our lives don't revolve around basketball--we don't sit in our dorm rooms trying to think up clever ideas for signs and chants in our spare time.

Ah, but many of ours did and many of us did. That's the disconnect.

DukeCO2009
11-06-2008, 02:01 PM
It's a two hour game. Skip watching "The Hills", or go out partying at 9 instead of 7 on Saturday.

When I was at Duke, students were generally basketball crazy. Watching the development of the team from November to April (hopefully) is part of the experience and part of the fun. It is a rare privledge to be part of the 6th man, and maybe it's not for you. I just wish that the excitement and gratitude for the opportunity to watch Duke basketball for free in the best seats in the house was still a part of the Duke culture. "Work hard, play hard" was the culture when I was there, and the ball games were definitely part of the "play". There were many basketball "nuts" when I was there. The school is clearly different now, and while I can't rightfully tell people how to spend their four years at Duke, I am definitely saddened that a great part of the Duke experience, as I knew it, seems to be waning. The thing that separates Duke from Colombia, Princeton, Emory, UVA, etc... is that we have a perrenial Top 5 basketball program, and that's special.

It's not up to the upper bowl to make noise. The "Cameron Crazies" are the 6th man, and they sit in the lower bowl. The students get the good seats, and they get the regonition of and the responsibility for being the best student section in the country.

If you're only going to go for a game against a Big 4 or top 10 team, it seems like a lop-sided commitment to the team. Just as you would not have alums and boosters using you for entertainment value, it seems like that's how you are treating the team when you choose to participate when it's exciting and convenient to you.

A bit presumptuous, aren't you? I have law school to prepare for--I don't have time to watch much TV or go out on week nights. I don't only go to the good games by any stretch; in fact, I've probably only missed 6 or 7 games the entire time I've been here. The student population is no less "basketball crazy" now than it was 10, 15, or however many years ago. In fact, I'd venture to say it's the exact opposite. Take a look at how big K-Ville has gotten, and you'll realize your claim is pretty weak. Bottom line, though, is that hopefully very few of us came here just to watch basketball. To get upset when we don't show up in full force for a basketball game is silly, really. I've been coming to a few games a year since I was a kid, a good many of those being early and pre-season games, and I never recall seeing the student section filled to the brim and as loud as it is for conference play. This goes back 15+ years--to when the Crazies were allegedly in their prime. Get a grip; as I said, Cameron will be as loud as ever come winter.

PumpkinFunk
11-06-2008, 02:02 PM
As a senior, I understand the attendance gripe. My sophomore year was terrible (The year after JJ&Shelden left, the 06-07 Season) with regards to attendance.

Last year was much better, and I expect this year to be better than that.

You all are being way too quick to judge. For starters this was the 2nd exhibition game. Second it was during a wednesday on november.

I myself didn't go, I had a job that I had to be at Wednesday night. Yes, I could've probably gotten off, but then I wouldn't be able to get off when we actually have regular season games. I'll prioritize in this case.

I believe the fans will support the team in Cameron during the regular season. But a 2nd exhibition game, 1 and a half weeks after the last one in the middle of a week? Uhhhh obviously attendance was going to suck.

I have to echo these statements. Last night was an exhibition against a school nobody recognized. We are students first. A lot of people have midterms this week or papers or whatever else. The election was the night before, and I dare anyone to say that an exhibition game is more important than waiting for election results. The section was relatively full and loud last night, and it'll get better and better as we start playing better teams. Don't worry, it'll be great next Monday and Tuesday.

I see a lot of people on this board having such high expectations for the Crazies without realizing that we all have to balance classes with basketball, too. At this part of the season, classes tend to take priority. Once we hit the ACC schedule, not so much. Please, cut us a break, too. At least for men's games... for women's games, go ahead and talk about how we don't show up (because we absolutely do not)

miramar
11-06-2008, 02:04 PM
Re: Kedsy's comment that "We also, believe it or not, have academic obligations. Would I stay up an extra two or three hours studying so I could see us play State, Wake, or even someone like Princeton? Sure--but a game against a DII school that counts for nothing?"

There's no doubt that Duke's tough and requires a lot of studying, which is a problem because it takes a lot of time when you have to go over to Cameron, then stand in line way ahead of time to get a good seat, then wait around an hour before the game, etc. So it can take an entire afternoon or evening to see one game.

But it's good to see a few people studying before the games, so there's no question that you can hit the books and still see the games. Here's one guy who was doing his math homework while the players were doing their pre-game stretching in the background.

Kedsy
11-06-2008, 02:12 PM
Re: Kedsy's comment that "We also, believe it or not, have academic obligations. Would I stay up an extra two or three hours studying so I could see us play State, Wake, or even someone like Princeton? Sure--but a game against a DII school that counts for nothing?"

Hey, I didn't say that! I said exactly the opposite. The quote you are attributing came from DukeCO2009.

willywoody
11-06-2008, 02:15 PM
Reread my post: I'm not at all saying that there's no reason to come to early season games.



The reason fewer students show up to the early games--exhibitions, preseason games, crappy OOC games--is because it's just not great baskebtall.

guess i misunderstood.

Edouble
11-06-2008, 02:16 PM
A bit presumptuous, aren't you? I have law school to prepare for--I don't have time to watch much TV or go out on week nights. I don't only go to the good games by any stretch; in fact, I've probably only missed 6 or 7 games the entire time I've been here. The student population is no less "basketball crazy" now than it was 10, 15, or however many years ago. In fact, I'd venture to say it's the exact opposite. Take a look at how big K-Ville has gotten, and you'll realize your claim is pretty weak. Bottom line, though, is that hopefully very few of us came here just to watch basketball. To get upset when we don't show up in full force for a basketball game is silly, really. I've been coming to a few games a year since I was a kid, a good many of those being early and pre-season games, and I never recall seeing the student section filled to the brim and as loud as it is for conference play. This goes back 15+ years--to when the Crazies were allegedly in their prime. Get a grip; as I said, Cameron will be as loud as ever come winter.

Yeah, I am presumptuous. I presume there's a problem in Duke basketball when I see a half full student section, and hear Coach K talking about selling off 6th man seats.

The effects of Duke students not showing up for games is what I am upset about. There's been alot of work to build up the area around Cameron, so that we don't tear down Cameron to build our own awful Dean Dome. Part of preserving Cameron is that the best seats will always be for the student. Now after all of that construction and work to keep Cameron as our basketball arena, the students don't come to the games?

I do not mean to unfairly attack you. I respect your need to study for law school, and I respect you for being the one to post on here knowing that you're probably going to get attacked a bit. This isn't about you, but about all of the students. It just disappoints me that among 6,000 or so undergrads, we couldn't fill the lower bowl for an exhibition game. It takes 10-15 minutes to get to Cameron depending on where you live on campus. One could leave his or her dorm/apartment at 7:00 and get there around tip-off, missing warm-ups, the National Anthem, and the announcement of starting line-ups. That's just my thinking on the matter.

As someone who has a history with Duke basketball, I trust that you know what you're talking about when you say the place is no less basketball crazy. However, going back 15 years, as you suggest, I don't recall Coach K having this type of reaction to student attendence. I know there were some problems a few years ago, and now this! Maybe Coach K is wrong. I hope that the Crazies prove that he and I are both wrong on Monday night. I can imagine Duke having a crappy basketball season. I can imagine us in the cellar of the ACC (you and I have both seen it!). But, I can not imagine Duke without the section 17 filled with students.

Huh?
11-06-2008, 02:39 PM
I have to echo these statements. Last night was an exhibition against a school nobody recognized. We are students first. A lot of people have midterms this week or papers or whatever else. The election was the night before, and I dare anyone to say that an exhibition game is more important than waiting for election results. The section was relatively full and loud last night, and it'll get better and better as we start playing better teams. Don't worry, it'll be great next Monday and Tuesday.

I see a lot of people on this board having such high expectations for the Crazies without realizing that we all have to balance classes with basketball, too. At this part of the season, classes tend to take priority. Once we hit the ACC schedule, not so much. Please, cut us a break, too. At least for men's games... for women's games, go ahead and talk about how we don't show up (because we absolutely do not)



I'll take that dare.

dukeENG2003
11-06-2008, 03:07 PM
Coach K noticed. . .

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/423/story/303133.html

Attendance has been pathetic. I say this as both an alum and as a current Crazy (grad student spouse).

Academic obligations are not a new excuse. Its not like Duke became a good school in the last 3 years, its ALWAYS been an elite academic institution.

I missed only 2 games in 4 years as a student. I feel sorry for this years team for not getting the support they deserve. I genuinely feel this may be the best team we've had since 2001, and we can't fill our section (undergrad AND grad were both weak). I'm angry at the crazies not b/c I want them to be there for "my entertainment", I want them to be there FOR THE TEAM. I'm not even saying you have to be ridiculously loud or paint yourself up for the exhibition season, just BEING THERE is a good start though.

DukeCO2009
11-06-2008, 03:14 PM
Coach K noticed. . .

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/423/story/303133.html

Attendance has been pathetic. I say this as both an alum and as a current Crazy (grad student spouse).

Academic obligations are not a new excuse. Its not like Duke became a good school in the last 3 years, its ALWAYS been an elite academic institution.

I missed only 2 games in 4 years as a student. I feel sorry for this years team for not getting the support they deserve. I genuinely feel this may be the best team we've had since 2001, and we can't fill our section (undergrad AND grad were both weak). I'm angry at the crazies not b/c I want them to be there for "my entertainment", I want them to be there FOR THE TEAM. I'm not even saying you have to be ridiculously loud or paint yourself up for the exhibition season, just BEING THERE is a good start though.

Santa Maria, dukeENG2003! We're one game into the season--and it wasn't even a "real" game. Give the students a collective break.

willywoody
11-06-2008, 03:23 PM
From reading that newspaper article , maybe DukeCo2009 should also ask Coach K to give the students a break. He seemed pretty peeved.

DukeCO2009
11-06-2008, 03:33 PM
From reading that newspaper article , maybe DukeCo2009 should also ask Coach K to give the students a break. He seemed pretty peeved.

This happens every season. Really, it does. I remember, as a 7-year-old kid, listening to a post-game show on the drive back home during the beginning of the '93-'94 season. Can't remember who we played, but I do remember it being a pre-season game. Coach K repeated his usual spiel about being disappointed in student attendance, etc. This is nothing new--that's just how K is. When he sees something he doesn't like, he talks about it. I honestly can't remember a season when he hasn't made a remark about early season attendance being what it should be.

Since I've been reading this board, I've noticed a cycle. First 6 or 7 games: alums post about the days of yore, how they're disappointed in the students, how things were better in their day, how Coach K is upset, how we're not appreciate/supportive enough, etc. December->early January: relatively silent. Late January to the end of the season: "Thanks to the Crazies for being such a great 6th man!", etc. I've lurked around here for a while. Probably read the original BBS--the one with the solid blue background where you had to receive a confirmation e-mail to post, etc.--for 3 or 4 years easy. This same discussion happens every year. Really, everything is going to be OK.

Lulu
11-06-2008, 03:46 PM
This happens every season. Really, it does. I remember, as a 7-year-old kid, listening to a post-game show on the drive back home during the beginning of the '93-'94 season. Can't remember who we played, but I do remember it being a pre-season game. Coach K repeated his usual spiel about being disappointed in student attendance, etc. This is nothing new--that's just how K is. When he sees something he doesn't like, he talks about it. I honestly can't remember a season when he hasn't made a remark about early season attendance being what it should be.
...


This does not happen every year. It seems to have been a trend the past 5 years or so, but it was certainly not the case when I was at Duke, and I wasn't even there to witness a championship team. I waited in line for packed student sections at exhibition games.

Bluedog
11-06-2008, 03:53 PM
The thing that I find ironic about this thread is that the students who actually read DBR (and thus clearly care about Duke basketball and attend the vast majority of the games) are the ones we're complaining too, but they're not the problem. It's the people who are more casual fans as students that we need to show up (and thus would never be viewing this thread in a million years). Student DBR-readers are not the problem. So we're I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing to the people who actually help the atmosphere. As a fairly recent graduate, I knew a shockingly high number of people who only attended one or two games in their entire four years. That wasn't me, and I didn't really understand them, but there's a lot of people out there that go to Duke for academics and could care less about basketball. (Again, that's not me as I think basketball adds a lot to the Duke experience) The demographics of the student body has shifted a bit, and Duke attracts/accepts a fewer percentage of "jock-type/sports crazy" people than in prior decades, in my opinion. Having said that, I'm not worried about the atmosphere once the season gets into full swing.

RaineyDevil
11-06-2008, 03:58 PM
I'll take that dare.

Me Too...my wedding and my children being born are about the only things I would skip a Duke basketball game for. But then again, im not dumb enough to schedule a wedding during basketball season. The president will be there for the next 4 years, he isnt going anywhere. You can find out as easily on Wednesday morning what you could Tuesday night. This is the point I think a lot of us are trying to make...we do live and breathe Duke Basketball. When it comes down to it, thats been the one of the only constants in my life since the day I was born and it will stay that way until the day I die.

GO DEVILS GO

pratt '04
11-06-2008, 04:03 PM
From reading that newspaper article , maybe DukeCo2009 should also ask Coach K to give the students a break. He seemed pretty peeved.

He sounds peeved in those quotes, but he actually wasn't upset with the students. Do you think Coach K really expected there to be a full student section for a mid-week exhibition game versus a DII school? This happens every year and he's a smart guy. His frustration is that nothing was done ahead of time to fill up the section (with students or others) since we have this same problem at the beginning of every season.

Expect there to be a smaller, but more full student section on Monday and Tuesday. As we get further into the season, student attendance will be up and the student section will expand accordingly.

Lulu
11-06-2008, 04:04 PM
The thing that I find ironic about this thread is that the students who actually read DBR (and thus clearly care about Duke basketball and attend the vast majority of the games) are the ones we're complaining too, but they're not the problem. It's the people who are more casual fans as students that we need to show up (and thus would never be viewing this thread in a million years). Student DBR-readers are not the problem. So we're I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing to the people who actually help the atmosphere. As a fairly recent graduate, I knew a shockingly high number of people who only attended one or two games in their entire four years. That wasn't me, and I didn't really understand them, but there's a lot of people out there that go to Duke for academics and could care less about basketball. (Again, that's not me as I think basketball adds a lot to the Duke experience) The demographics of the student body has shifted a bit, and Duke attracts/accepts a fewer percentage of "jock-type/sports crazy" people than in prior decades, in my opinion. Having said that, I'm not worried about the atmosphere once the season gets into full swing.

This is fine, and probably true. So, Duke, how about allotting more tickets for purchase by alumni (perhaps even young alumni if we're too concerned about the atmosphere and Iron Duke membership), grad students, or other local fans? (Again, I couldn't even take advantage since I don't live nearby, but I think this might be what needs to happen.)

DukeCO2009
11-06-2008, 04:06 PM
Me Too...my wedding and my children being born are about the only things I would skip a Duke basketball game for. But then again, im not dumb enough to schedule a wedding during basketball season. The president will be there for the next 4 years, he isnt going anywhere. You can find out as easily on Wednesday morning what you could Tuesday night. This is the point I think a lot of us are trying to make...we do live and breathe Duke Basketball. When it comes down to it, thats been the one of the only constants in my life since the day I was born and it will stay that way until the day I die.

GO DEVILS GO

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you're definitely in the minority. IMO, people like you, people who come back early from break to start camping out in late December, etc. have a very skewed perception of the proverbial "average" Crazie. I've done some pretty absurd things to get to a television during a Duke game, and I've gone to great lengths to plan my schedule such that it will allow me to attend as many games as possible. That said, my life does not revolve around Duke basketball, nor do the lives of the overwhelming majority of students. I'd guess that about the same percentage of students feel the way you do now as they did when you were in school.

Billy Dat
11-06-2008, 04:13 PM
One of the sad realities of life is that as you get older, you get wiser but can't go back and tell your 18-22 year old self how good you had it. I was at Duke for the magical 1991 - 1994 run and attended only a handful of games every year because I was always delivering Lil Dinos (aside - Duke students were lousy tippers). Plus, it was very hard to get into games....there was no problem with empty seats in that heady era. But, young grasshoppers, you will become even more rabid fans when you leave the gothic wonderland. Games will become a huge refuge from the treadmill that is your career and you'll wonder how anyone could choose to not attend if they had the chance. Go to more games then your syllabus tells you to!

But, older folks, we have to cut these kids some slack. In my day, there was no internet. If we had internet back then, I don't know that I would have ever left my room.

MulletMan
11-06-2008, 04:29 PM
Me Too...my wedding and my children being born are about the only things I would skip a Duke basketball game for. But then again, im not dumb enough to schedule a wedding during basketball season. The president will be there for the next 4 years, he isnt going anywhere. You can find out as easily on Wednesday morning what you could Tuesday night. This is the point I think a lot of us are trying to make...we do live and breathe Duke Basketball. When it comes down to it, thats been the one of the only constants in my life since the day I was born and it will stay that way until the day I die.

GO DEVILS GO

Wow. Just wow. I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. "The president will be there for the next four years"? Seriously? You're comparing Duke v. LRU in a preseason exhibition to, quite possibly, the single most significant event in American political history? And if not history, at least in the history of many of our lives? Really? Sometimes life gets in the way of Duke Basketball. It happens.

I don't think anybody can really question MY devotion to Duke Basketball or what kind of fan I am, but I left before the first half even ended last night. I canvassed Durham from 8:30AM until 6:00PM on election day, then stayed up until 100% of NC was reporting and I was freaking exhausted last night by the time the game rolled around. So yeah, in order to be invovled in history I gave up 20 minutes of Duke Basketball.

Tell me that I should have traded the two.

RaineyDevil
11-06-2008, 04:46 PM
All im trying to say is that, what did you get Tuesday night that you couldnt have gotten Wednesday morning? I understand this is a historical election...but its not like it happened for 30 seconds then is gone and will never be back. Basically my point is this: someone offers me Duke-LRC exhibition tickets versus sitting around watching tv about the election we've been hearing about for the past 9 months with information that is one click away on the internet, then yeah im gonna take the Duke tix. I was as eager as you were to find out who was going to win...but you know as well as I do, there is no lack of coverage or information on the election. And to be honest, NC was not called Tuesday night and actually sitll isnt...so you must be tired you've been up for 3 days now.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-06-2008, 04:46 PM
All I'm trying to get across is that our lives don't revolve around basketball--we don't sit in our dorm rooms trying to think up clever ideas for signs and chants in our spare time.

Why the hell not? That's what Crazies do, or at least did in years gone by.

Note to Throatybeard - I can't believe there is no code for this entire thread. There really needs to be a topic added in section 4 :D

But yeah, the upstairs crowd was as sparse as I've seen in years - I commented on it myself, and wasn't surprised that K talked about it in his post game comments to Bob Harris. The two seats to my right were empty, and these belong to a retired professor who doesn't miss any games. Well, except for last night. I thought the Crazies did a reasonable job last night, so I place no blame on them.

miramar
11-06-2008, 04:48 PM
Hey, I didn't say that! I said exactly the opposite. The quote you are attributing came from DukeCO2009.

My bad! Sorry!

dukeENG2003
11-06-2008, 04:49 PM
This does not happen every year to this extent. I've NEVER seen Cameron this empty for a game. Usually its just the very ends of the bleachers that are empty during preseason stuff. There were empty spots in the bleachers even with the baseline. This is bad, whats next, students drinking chardonnay and eating brie in line?

I don't understand how anyone can defend this poor attendance. Sure, we're not harping on those who are posting here. They were probably at the game (if you weren't though, I am). As I said, nothing has changed about the academics being an imposing thing to schedule around, an election is a downright silly explaination for not attending (it was pretty obvious who was going to win all along). Whats changed is the attitude of the fans and that I find sad.

The attitude now is that we are entitled to show up and cheer our team on when we want, but that we expect them to always perform at an elite level. If we as a crowd want to truly be part of the team (something Cameron has always been proud of), we need to be there FOR EVERY GAME. Jordan Davidson showed up. Steve Johnson showed up. They had just as much of an impact on the game as the crowd but they showed up. . .

DukeCO2009
11-06-2008, 05:01 PM
Why the hell not? That's what Crazies do, or at least did in years gone by.

You generalize too much. If by "Crazies", you mean people like dukeENG2003, then yes, you're probably right. The other 95% of us don't go to those great lengths, so I guess we're worse fans because of it in the minds of a good many people on this board. I'll repeat: Duke students' lives do not revolve around basketball. Were you a Crazie, Ozzie? If you were, you probably understand this.

mike88
11-06-2008, 05:02 PM
I think the underlying "problem" here is not the students and their lack of early-season enthusiasm, but actually a more fundamental one- the way in which tickets are allocated for basketball. The current system works well in many ways (great seats for students, especially for "big" games; strong impetus for fundraising through Iron Dukes), but it doesn't do a good job in many others (allowing more non-student fans the chance to see Duke play; filling seats early in the year and for 9PM games).

Moreover, the "official" mechanisms for recycling tickets doesn't seem to work very well, and one of the side effects of scalping is that it is not uncommon to have another team's fans in our building for big games- it was painful to have to sit next to a Carolina fan for last year's UNC game.

I think we need to step back and completely revelauate how the opportunity and priority for tickets are determined. It may be that we just need some small tweaks, but until we do something different, I think we will see the same problems each year.

aimo
11-06-2008, 05:03 PM
As I mentioned in another post, this season the season ticketholders were given an option to not buy the exhibition games. Maybe they did this b/c of poor attendance in the past. If this is the case, and people did NOT buy these tickets with the season book, then the ticket office is responsible for not selling the extra tickets. Which is why they should do like they used to and make the exhibition games free, allowing those not able to get season tickets the opportunity to see a game in Cameron.

The problem is the same. Greed. They have limited season ticketholders to pretty much those Iron Dukes who give the most money. Unfortunately, too many of these people are only interested in the big games. And they're too bothered to give the tickets to anyone else. Maybe if they weren't so hell-bent on making the most money possible, they could sell seats to people who actually come to the games (the publicly sold tickets usually go to a much livelier crowd, too.) Or do a better job of convincing the Iron Dukes to donate unwanted tickets to groups like Big Brother/Big Sister so kids that would normally never get to see a game come to Cameron.

So, Coach, which do you prefer? Money or fans?

Also, it is hard for a lot of people to get to 7pm games on time. They work, go home, have dinner, deal with family issues, FIGHT TRAFFIC, etc. Coach K always seems to forget this . . .

nyr484
11-06-2008, 05:12 PM
let's call the upper level out occasionally.

I remember a game my sophomore or junior year (against Wake with Chris Paul), where it was very close in the 2nd half. Crazies started a "Stand Up" cheer and the entire 6,000 or so people in the upper level stood up and started making noise. I've never heard Cameron louder. The team was visibly energized, and we ended up winning. That needs to happen more often.

bigj4194
11-06-2008, 05:25 PM
hey guys i wanted to add my $0.02. Yes I am embarrased about the attendance, especially since i am HLM. Yes I think the attendance needs to be better. Yes I think that the attendance last night as it was pathetic. That said...I want to make a couple of arguments (i am not defending those who didn't come to the game).
1) It was the night after the election. I know a lot of people who did not attend the game because they had projects due and they chose to watch the election rather than go to the game.
2) This is midterm season
3) It was an exhibition game
4) Many people didn't even know there was a game. While did everything in my power to try to advertise for the game, many people didnt know about it. I wrote a letter to the editor for the Chronicle, and they didn't publish it. The chronicle didn't even mention that there was a game...instead they focused entirely on the election

While I have said all of this I do believe that it is unacceptable that WE the student body didn't show up. I do not want to lose the student section seats. I will be doing everything in my power to increase the attendance for the undergrad students. I do not believe that we should have to advertise basketball, but if thats what it takes to get attendance back to where it needs to be.

Lastly. I do not believe that we will be having this discussion about poor basketball attendance come ACC season. IMO let's table this discussion until after at least a couple of pre-season games. If the student attendance is still poor in a month we can continue this conversation, but criticizing everyone here is unproductive until we actually see what is going on during the regular season.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-06-2008, 05:51 PM
One thing that has not really been said here is that getting the best seats in the house for free is a privilege for undergrads, not a right. There is probably no other top program in the country that allows such a large percentage of its undergrads to sit courtside for free.

We shouldn't have to, but let's look at it another way. Think of early game attendance as the price of admission. If students want to have the opportunity to go to big games, they should "earn" the right to keep the large student section intact by showing their full support from day one - not day 10 or 20. If students don't earn it, you can bet the section will get smaller... you know, use it or lose it. That would be a shame for everyone b/c the Crazies are Cameron!

I hope a sense of duty beats out any sense of entitlement that may exist. I was a Crazy from 90-94. It got really hard to get into games. Long lines all the time. But you know what, we dropped our books and got our butts out there b/c we loved it. It was a key part of the Duke experience. Relish it and make us all proud.

Edouble
11-06-2008, 05:55 PM
I hope a sense of duty beats out any sense of entitlement that may exist. I was a Crazy from 90-94. It got really hard to get into games. Long lines all the time. But you know what, we dropped our books and got our butts out there b/c we loved it. It was a key part of the Duke experience. Relish it and make us all proud.

I brought my books with me when I sat in line. Laptops weren't as common back then either. If I could be researching and writing papers while in line, I would have had a much easier time.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-06-2008, 06:05 PM
Were you a Crazie, Ozzie? If you were, you probably understand this.

I never missed a home game in four years as an undergrad. I sat behind the visitor's bench with my air horn in the mid 70's. You may have seen Devildeac's reference to me as XXXXX. See picture below. This is not the first air horn - that was absconded with by some fellow student early sophomore year. This one I closely guarded for three more seasons. I bought many cans of freon at Durham Sporting Goods over the years - you can see the price tag on the can - it was only $2.40 back then. I have no idea what freon costs now. And yes, it still works (I just tested it)!

I met Lefty Driesell at an Iron Duke football tailgate 2 years ago and introduced myself as the student with the air horn. He laughed and remembered me, holding his hands over his ears as he shook his head.

We (Phi Psi's) mercilessly picked on one player during games, to the point of bringing a Clemson freshman star guard to tears when he was finally pulled out of the game late in the second half. There are other instances I can site but won't. Yeah, I will - we named Mike O'Koren permanent captain of the ACC All Ugly team, permanent Clearasil poster boy (we were not the originators of that title).

In my day, Duke basketball pretty much sucked - last in the ACC year after year, beating only Maryland my freshman year (the Gary Melchionni game) and then again my senior year (the Terry Chili foul shot game) as the only big conference wins.

We only had to get to Cameron (newly named just before my freshman year) about 3 hours before the game to secure our primo seats, even for the carolina game. I never had to tent, although it certainly would have been cool to do it for a day or two...

jlear
11-06-2008, 06:29 PM
I have been upstairs for every game except one (gave ticket to a family member) for the last 4 season. My take on last night was that the lower bowl had about the same numbers as most weekday exhibition games and the upstairs was the worst attended mens game I have been to, kinda like a womens game. It seems the core group of crazies was there and had a great new cheer after Olek's dunk, I thought the cheer was a little over the line and I loved it even if some folks around me did not get it.

I think we should save the crying about attendence for a week or two and figure out which game would make for a good DBR hoops tailgate....I am thinking of frying turkey's for it.

lifelongdevil
11-06-2008, 06:44 PM
some of the things I have seen written by fellow students above are rally disheartening. Im a freshman this year, but grew up in North Carolina with season tickets since around 8 years of age. In the last four years(although less notably so JJ and Shelden's senior year) I've seen a significant drop in both attendance and intensity. Most ACC games last year were absolutely dull. You should never be able to hear the ball bouncing against the court, which i did a number of times, from my row J seat last year. I remember the days hen the crazies found a way to unfurl a make shift banner with Go to Hell Carolina spray painted on it. Of making Chris Paul cry on the sidelines. Of yelling a**hole at Kenny Inge.

The majority of people I know simply chose not to go to the game, with many others telling me they didn't even know we were playing. While it wasn't a high caliber opponent, going to Cameron with your friends is fun, not some kind of obligation. Its two hours, ending at nine; there is no way you have that much work. I was sorely disappointed by the turnout last night and hope next monday brings a new enthusiasm.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-06-2008, 06:50 PM
Back in the good old days when Vic Bubas was the coach and we undergraduates paid a hefty student activities fee which included admission to football and basketball games, then AD Eddie Cameron came up with a way to fill the students sections. At the time we didn't like it and some even resented it in view of the activity fee. He created a policy which resulted in a full arena downstairs for every game. A short time before the game was to start, if there were seats available, anyone could be admitted for $1 per person. Maybe, at least for the exhibition games, something similar could be done....... with a suitable price for admission.

MulletMan
11-06-2008, 06:57 PM
All im trying to say is that, what did you get Tuesday night that you couldnt have gotten Wednesday morning? I understand this is a historical election...but its not like it happened for 30 seconds then is gone and will never be back. Basically my point is this: someone offers me Duke-LRC exhibition tickets versus sitting around watching tv about the election we've been hearing about for the past 9 months with information that is one click away on the internet, then yeah im gonna take the Duke tix. I was as eager as you were to find out who was going to win...but you know as well as I do, there is no lack of coverage or information on the election. And to be honest, NC was not called Tuesday night and actually sitll isnt...so you must be tired you've been up for 3 days now.

What did I get out of it? Oh, I don't know, the chance to experience history with people I care about and respect as opposed to reading about it the next day.

And see here's the thing... you said in your first post that the only things that you'd miss a Duke game for were your wedding and the birth of your children. I think that's kind of ridiculous. I mean kudos for being able to put those things in front of a Duke basketball game, but I think there are many other things that might be more worthwhile than going to a Duke game. Yes, if it was the one chance that you had in your entire life to see a game in Cameron then yes, I get it. But surprisingly there is a lot that the world has to offer outside of Duke Basketball.

Oh, and you need to work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say that I waited for NC to be called, I said:


... then stayed up until 100% of NC was reporting and I was freaking exhausted last night by the time the game rolled around. So yeah, in order to be invovled in history I gave up 20 minutes of Duke Basketball.

Tell me that I should have traded the two.

And that happened around 2:30AM on Wednesday. But thanks for your concern.

*****************************

Now to the issue at hand:

1. It is truly waaaaay too early to be talking about this.
2. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Student Section belongs to the students. It is what they make it, and it is different each year. DO I think that some of our stunts were the funniest and most clever ever? Yep. Sure do. Do I think that these Crazies are as good as my Crazies? WHO CARES! They're the Crazies... you don't like it? ... enroll your I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. as an undergrad or grad student and get in line every damn game! Now that seems stupid doesn't it? Kind of like complaining about attendance for a weeknight exhibition against a D-II school.
3. Everyone is entitled to prioritize Duke Basketball wherever they like in their lives, but that doesn't mean that everyone needs to rank it in the same spot on their personal list.

MulletMan
11-06-2008, 06:59 PM
I remember the days hen the crazies found a way to unfurl a make shift banner with Go to Hell Carolina spray painted on it. Of making Chris Paul cry on the sidelines. Of yelling a**hole at Kenny Inge.



Well try to make some of those things happen now and see how quickly you are reprimanded or told not to do them again by people associated with the program.

bigj4194
11-06-2008, 07:35 PM
Now to the issue at hand:

1. It is truly waaaaay too early to be talking about this.
2. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Student Section belongs to the students. It is what they make it, and it is different each year. DO I think that some of our stunts were the funniest and most clever ever? Yep. Sure do. Do I think that these Crazies are as good as my Crazies? WHO CARES! They're the Crazies... you don't like it? ... enroll your I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. as an undergrad or grad student and get in line every damn game! Now that seems stupid doesn't it? Kind of like complaining about attendance for a weeknight exhibition against a D-II school.
3. Everyone is entitled to prioritize Duke Basketball wherever they like in their lives, but that doesn't mean that everyone needs to rank it in the same spot on their personal list.

AMEN Mulletman...i completely agree and tried to say this in my post earlier...but was not as clear and concise as you were.

zingit
11-06-2008, 07:50 PM
Count me in 100% with MulletMan and DukeCO2009 (maybe because I am Duke class of 2009 too). Yes, I was there last night and I attend almost every game. But can we please stop using these moralistic tones when discussing this? The whole attitude of some of the people (not everyone)complaining on this board is, "You should be ashamed of yourself--you didn't attend a basketball game!" Doesn't that strike anyone as a little . . . odd? And obnoxious? I love Duke basketball, but you are not a bad person if you don't go to a particular game, especially a pre-season game.

And yes, I get that in general, tough academics are a constant, but is it that hard to believe that last night could have been an anomaly, a particularly bad night for academics? I mean, there's always tough academics, but there isn't always a major test/assignment due the next day. I have two friends who both really wanted to go, but one had an assignment due at midnight (a little harder to just "do it later") and the other had a huge test the next day. Tsk-tsk at them all you want, but just because they didn't show up last night doesn't mean that they're bad fans, or that they won't show up to later games. Heck, given how much work I have to do, I'm half-regretting going to the game--I literally had to stay up all night last night. Not complaining, just stating a fact. And I'm not someone who parties a lot or watches "The Hills," as someone suggested. (Charming accusation there.) Just have some perspective, guys.


The attitude now is that we are entitled to show up and cheer our team on when we want, but that we expect them to always perform at an elite level.

I think that argument goes both ways. Coach K complains about the people who expect us to attend a Final Four every year. He's right; we're not entitled to anything except to see our team compete and try their best. But you can turn that back and say Coach K's not entitled to have a crowd of 9,314 every night either. Neither of us is entitled to anything. I love Coach K 99% of the time, but I really get annoyed when Coach K harps on this, because I feel like he doesn't have the right to complain about spoiled fans when he's just acting like a spoiled coach.

Now, I do think he has a point that if the students don't fill up the section then let's go ahead and sell some of those seats before tipoff or something. But let's remember, we tried a new basketball admission policy last year to deal with exactly this problem, and then it turned out there was no problem once the season got underway (let's remember, the season has NOT started yet) and fans filled the seats easily. So this is way too early to be complaining about this.

Edouble
11-06-2008, 07:54 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Student Section belongs to the students.

I hope that it stays that way.

willywoody
11-06-2008, 08:43 PM
Season starts at the Blue-White game and games should be well attended, maybe not sold out attendance for an exhibition game but not 2/3 full, either.

Unfortunately, this thread went in an unintentional direction which I thought I had addressed after the HLM (took me a while to figure that one out) responded. My wi fi interupted and erased my post in transit, though.

I was really trying to get students AND season ticket holders excited for these early season games. They are entertaining and like I posted earlier, they can provide some ever lasting memories.

I wish everyone would stop being so defensive and accusatory and figure out how to get people in the stands for these games. The team deserves it, even if it is an exhibition game.

Ders24
11-06-2008, 09:50 PM
Season starts at the Blue-White game and games should be well attended, maybe not sold out attendance for an exhibition game but not 2/3 full, either.

Unfortunately, this thread went in an unintentional direction which I thought I had addressed after the HLM (took me a while to figure that one out) responded. My wi fi interupted and erased my post in transit, though.

I was really trying to get students AND season ticket holders excited for these early season games. They are entertaining and like I posted earlier, they can provide some ever lasting memories.

I wish everyone would stop being so defensive and accusatory and figure out how to get people in the stands for these games. The team deserves it, even if it is an exhibition game.

While I agree that the team does deserve the support, and I have been at every game so far as an undergrad, I don't think that most people would agree that the season starts at Blue/White. Compared to what a lot of other schools do, Blue/White is not an exciting way to start the season. Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that not enough is done to get students hyped about the season early on.

Carlos
11-06-2008, 09:50 PM
I think that argument goes both ways. Coach K complains about the people who expect us to attend a Final Four every year. He's right; we're not entitled to anything except to see our team compete and try their best. But you can turn that back and say Coach K's not entitled to have a crowd of 9,314 every night either. Neither of us is entitled to anything. I love Coach K 99% of the time, but I really get annoyed when Coach K harps on this, because I feel like he doesn't have the right to complain about spoiled fans when he's just acting like a spoiled coach.

Now, I do think he has a point that if the students don't fill up the section then let's go ahead and sell some of those seats before tipoff or something. But let's remember, we tried a new basketball admission policy last year to deal with exactly this problem, and then it turned out there was no problem once the season got underway (let's remember, the season has NOT started yet) and fans filled the seats easily. So this is way too early to be complaining about this.

It's a nice analogy but perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that it's unrealistic to expect Duke to be the best basketball team in the country every year, but it's not unrealistic to expect them to show up and play the games. Likewise, it's unrealistic to expect the Cameron Crazies to be electric every single night, but it's not unrealistic to expect them to at least show up for the game.

Now maybe you stayed up late the night before to study for a test, write a paper, or participate in the election. That's your choice and I don't have a problem with any of that. But at the same time, it smacks of an appalling sense of entitlement to adopt the attitude that "don't worry, we'll show up when the games are more meaningful." Because the student section doesn't really belong to the students - it belongs to the university. And the university makes the decision to give that to the students (at a level that's superior to almost any other school in Div I). In return it shouldn't be too much to expect people to show up and support the team even for the dog games like exhibitions.

Here's a thought - establish the size of the student section for the whole season based on the number of students who show up for those exhibition games.

Kedsy
11-06-2008, 10:49 PM
Blue/White is not an exciting way to start the season. Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that not enough is done to get students hyped about the season early on.

If you're a Duke fan, what start-of-season event could be more exciting than Blue/White?

Acymetric
11-06-2008, 10:54 PM
If you're a Duke fan, what start-of-season event could be more exciting than Blue/White?

I'm pretty sure they're referring to what other schools do, like midnight madness and things like that. They make it a bit more of a spectacle. We don't have anything like that. Should we try to do something like that? I don't know, or really care. Other people probably have strong opinions one way or another.

Ders24
11-06-2008, 11:01 PM
If you're a Duke fan, what start-of-season event could be more exciting than Blue/White?

Well, I think a Midnight Madness-type event would be a way to not only get people who are currently dedicated fans involved, but also get the freshmen (the majority of whom know little about Duke basketball). From my experience, Blue White tells little about the season, and the excitement surrounding it tends to die off for the students after the first half.

RelativeWays
11-06-2008, 11:28 PM
Us upper level plebeians who cannot come to games on a regular basis need a Coriolanus to petition the ticket allocation oligarchy on our behalf. I'd love for there to be a better ticket recycling program, maybe a way to sign up for notifications of tickets made available, those could be 1st come 1st serve. I don't know how to fix the empty seat issue, but if Coach K and his grandkids want to dress up and sell tickets, he's got a buyer.

devildeac
11-06-2008, 11:37 PM
I'm pretty sure they're referring to what other schools do, like midnight madness and things like that. They make it a bit more of a spectacle. We don't have anything like that. Should we try to do something like that? I don't know, or really care. Other people probably have strong opinions one way or another.

If it involves Coach K wearing a lei, sunglasses and dancing or our players dressing in drag and performing some embarassing routine like some of our whine and cheesy neighbors down 15-501, umm, no thanks.

devilirium
11-06-2008, 11:42 PM
It's not up to the upper bowl to make noise. The "Cameron Crazies" are the 6th man, and they sit in the lower bowl. The students get the good seats, and they get the regonition of and the responsibility for being the best student section in the country.


The first part of the argument I hate, but it will always be true. I sit there with the "too busy to cheer crowd". The reactiveness of the silent majority, man I love that. At least when I unleash an "ahhhhh" cheer I'm not shouted down.

MADevil30
11-07-2008, 12:30 AM
If it involves Coach K wearing a lei, sunglasses and dancing or our players dressing in drag and performing some embarassing routine like some of our whine and cheesy neighbors down 15-501, umm, no thanks.

I feel both ways about this. Friends at Georgetown told me about a dozen times how "amazing" midnight madness was, but when they told me about what actually went on and it was "JT3 did a dance with his daughter!, All the players had a dance off!" I realized pretty quickly that not a single player touched a basketball the whole night. We can't do this.

I love blue and white because its great to actually see what the team has to offer and I like that Duke just gets down to business to start the season. That being said, I think there is a middle ground here. 1) Having blue and white in the middle of the day was lame, do it at midnight and it would be much cooler 2) Maybe do up the introduction more: get coach k to give a bit of a longer speech about the team and the season, have some extended player intros with some cool/funny personal info 3) get down to basketball.

There is no reason an intra-squad scrimmage can't be an awesome start to the season

OZZIE4DUKE
11-07-2008, 02:28 AM
1) Having blue and white in the middle of the day was lame, do it at midnight and it would be much cooler 2) Maybe do up the introduction more: get coach k to give a bit of a longer speech about the team and the season, have some extended player intros with some cool/funny personal info 3) get down to basketball.


First, Duke has had a midnight madness twice that I remember, both times when we had large freshman classes after mass early exoduses. K wanted a way to introduce the frosh to the big time atmosphere they would soon see in early season tournaments. I went to the first one and chose not to go to the second (both were free). Midnight madness, if we ever have it again, should NOT be the Blue/White game.

As for the start time of the B/W game, starting at midnight might be nice for students living on and near campus who routinely are up till 2 a.m., but it would be most inconvenient for non student ticket holders - you know, those that pay (big) money to the Iron Dukes and then pay for the tickets to attend the game. Games that start at 9 p.m. and end at 11:30 are bad enough (I get home between 12:30 and 1:00 those nights), but a game starting at midnight is, quite frankly, a non-starter. The B/W game should start around 6 or 6:30 p.m., after an afternoon football game starting at 1 p.m., to allow for maximum tailgating before and between games. The last two years, this wasn't the case.

As for the time of my post, yes, I am up at 2:30 a.m. Some nights are just like that......

DukeCO2009
11-07-2008, 02:47 AM
It's a nice analogy but perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that it's unrealistic to expect Duke to be the best basketball team in the country every year, but it's not unrealistic to expect them to show up and play the games. Likewise, it's unrealistic to expect the Cameron Crazies to be electric every single night, but it's not unrealistic to expect them to at least show up for the game.

Now maybe you stayed up late the night before to study for a test, write a paper, or participate in the election. That's your choice and I don't have a problem with any of that. But at the same time, it smacks of an appalling sense of entitlement to adopt the attitude that "don't worry, we'll show up when the games are more meaningful." Because the student section doesn't really belong to the students - it belongs to the university. And the university makes the decision to give that to the students (at a level that's superior to almost any other school in Div I). In return it shouldn't be too much to expect people to show up and support the team even for the dog games like exhibitions.

Here's a thought - establish the size of the student section for the whole season based on the number of students who show up for those exhibition games.

That's one of the more ridiculous arguments I've ever heard/read. How about you old farts show up and fill the upper deck for the "dog games", too? From the pictures I've seen and then people I've talked to who went, the top was just as proportionately empty as the student section. Get a grip--it's the preseason. Granted, Duke basketball is Duke basketball--this much is true. If I could make every single game, I would. Fact is that sometimes I physically can't, and other times I might be able to clear my schedule but can't rationalize it given the circumstances--quality of opponent, time of day, work I have to do, schedule the next day, etc. Sue me if you feel compelled.

You're right--it is indeed university property. If Duke wants to take away our seats because, Heaven forbid, we didn't paint our faces and wait in line for three hours to scream our lungs out for a game against a crappy D-II team from Hickory, I say go ahead. If it were really a problem, it would've been taken care of years ago.

EDIT: I reread the above paragraph and realized that it sounded overly cynical, and for that I apologize. I don't mean to insinuate that we don't care about "crappy" games, just that, as I've previously stated, the combination of an inconvenient time--during midterms--a relative lack of publicity about the game, and the assumption that we'd wax the floor with our opponent led a lot of students to stay home. This is not a new problem, nor is it even really a problem at all. This happens every year, and if the athletic department thought it was an issue, it would have been dealt with appropriately when it first surfaced. Again, sorry for the tone of the above paragraph. If it sounded angry, it's because I was (and still am) quite irritated by the petty and irrational comments coming from alums about a freaking preseason basketball game.

As I've said multiple times: if you want noise, create it yourself. Students come to watch the games, not for your entertainment. If you have a problem with our enthusiasm, take it up with someone who can actually do something rather than griping to us about it here. If you want to take away our seats, go for it--give it your best shot. If you can manage to whittle away at our chunk of Cameron, it's quite obviously more your loss than it is ours given how concerned you (everyone, not just Carlos) seem to be with everything we do. I swear I think half the upstairs crowd is more concerned with the downstairs crowd than with the game--that they come to hear novel chants and read clever signs instead of to watch the action.

mike88
11-07-2008, 06:22 AM
It seems that this thread keeps coming back to whether the undergrads can be expected to attend the early season games and whether it is a problem or not. I see the problem a little differently: too many empty seats. It seems like if we can expect this problem to happen every year, the university needs to find a better way of getting people in those empty seats.

The current policy of reserving much of the lower bowl for undergrad students and the fact that the undergrads don't have to decide until the last minute whether to use them or not makes it difficult to impossible to put any one else in them for most games (the system of selling more tickets in the lower bowl during student breaks actually seems to work a little better). The limitations of the ticket reallocation process through Iron Dukes causes the same type of problem upstairs.

I wonder if a process by which people have to claim their seats further in advance, or even some way of crediting people who come to the early season games so that they get better seats for the ACC games would be feasible . . .

Sixthman
11-07-2008, 07:53 AM
Cameron was neither prepared for nor expecting a full house Wednesday night. (Concessions were on skeleton staff and not enough to support the poorly attended game). My guess is Coach K didn't know this when he made his comments. I really think this is a non issue. Next game.

dukeENG2003
11-07-2008, 08:51 AM
Coach K's not entitled to have a crowd of 9,314 every night either.

He's not entitled to it, you're right. He has EARNED it, through the hard work and dedication that has helped him assemble a national contender year after year. By establishing us as the most dominant program in college basketball of the last 20 years.

More importantly, this TEAM has earned it by putting themselves in a position to contend for a national title.

The students aren't entitled to the best seats in the house (FOR FREE I might add, many schools charge for basketball tickets, even for students). They need to earn them, and right now, they are not.

pratt '04
11-07-2008, 09:02 AM
Us upper level plebeians who cannot come to games on a regular basis need a Coriolanus to petition the ticket allocation oligarchy on our behalf. I'd love for there to be a better ticket recycling program, maybe a way to sign up for notifications of tickets made available, those could be 1st come 1st serve. I don't know how to fix the empty seat issue, but if Coach K and his grandkids want to dress up and sell tickets, he's got a buyer.

FYI: they're selling ("recycling") tickets to Monday and Tuesday's games right now. Check out the banner ad at the top of goduke.com right now.

Channing
11-07-2008, 09:21 AM
against a crappy D-II team from Hickory,

that team from Hickory was pretty good. I hear they had basketball rims that are also ten feet high, and a free throw line just like ours.

Also, I was at the last midnight madness - it was useless. it was all students, cameron was 3/4 empty beacuse students were upstairs and in the student section. Duke just isnt big enough of a school to fill out for midnight madness.

Carlos
11-07-2008, 09:55 AM
That's one of the more ridiculous arguments I've ever heard/read. How about you old farts show up and fill the upper deck for the "dog games", too? From the pictures I've seen and then people I've talked to who went, the top was just as proportionately empty as the student section. Get a grip--it's the preseason. Granted, Duke basketball is Duke basketball--this much is true. If I could make every single game, I would. Fact is that sometimes I physically can't, and other times I might be able to clear my schedule but can't rationalize it given the circumstances--quality of opponent, time of day, work I have to do, schedule the next day, etc. Sue me if you feel compelled.

Of course you would feel that it's a ridiculous argument because it threatens that entitlement to show up for the games you deem worthy of your attendance (and by "you" I'm speaking collectively not individually) knowing that those seats will be there waiting for you.

As for the "old farts" you do realize that there's a bit of a difference between what they do to get their tickets and what the student section does - right? You do realize that they actually pump millions of dollars into the program that actually pays for those scholarships that keeps the team on the floor? And that a good chunk of those people aren't burdened with that horrific trek to West all the way from East or Central, but instead are looking at the trek to Durham from places like New York, Atlanta, or Tallahassee.

So in my opinion, the bar's set a little differently for those "old farts" who provide such a huge financial support for the program and live much further away than there is for those people who are given their seats and live within commuting distance. Simply put, one set earns the right to buy those seats through their financial support and another set earns the right to those free seats through their commitment to supporting the team - and that means for every game (again, collectively, not individually).

Of course, I also think that if you hold those upper bowl tickets and you can't use them that it's your responsibility to put them in the hands of someone who can - either through personal distribution or sending them back into the Iron Dukes.


You're right--it is indeed university property. If Duke wants to take away our seats because, Heaven forbid, we didn't paint our faces and wait in line for three hours to scream our lungs out for a game against a crappy D-II team from Hickory, I say go ahead. If it were really a problem, it would've been taken care of years ago.

Hey, let's start slowly here... you don't have to paint your faces, you don't have to wait in line for three hours, and you don't have to scream your lungs out... how about you just show up and honor your end of the great seats for great support equation?

Ders24
11-07-2008, 09:58 AM
that team from Hickory was pretty good. I hear they had basketball rims that are also ten feet high, and a free throw line just like ours.

Also, I was at the last midnight madness - it was useless. it was all students, cameron was 3/4 empty beacuse students were upstairs and in the student section. Duke just isnt big enough of a school to fill out for midnight madness.

Move it to earlier in the evening, keep the scrimmage but shorten it, do player introductions, etc.

shotrocksplitter
11-07-2008, 10:19 AM
I have been watching these forums for a while, but this thread inspired me to register and say something. This is my 2nd season as a Line Monitor and 4th as a Crazie. I have missed only break games, and my very worst seat has been 4th row. I start a huge number of cheers and yell my voice out usually by the middle of the 2nd half.

Because of my position as a Line Monitor, I have spent a large amount of time thinking and paying attention to this problem. As such, I'd like to propose my answer to "why does the student section suck?"

1 - The personality of the new Duke student. While Duke has been academically elite for some time, I don't think we can legitimately argue that it has ever been more competitive. Each new freshmen class, along with a new group of 2, 3, and 4 guards, brings Duke a more academically cutthroat group of 1600. I sit on the bus and hear "my life is going to end, fail fail fail, I got a 94%!" The new typical Duke student's priorities have basketball a long distant second or worse to school. Increasingly, greek life activities keep potential Crazies from coming out to games as well.

2 - The Chronicle. This isn't quite as serious a problem, but it's still pathetic. In addition to their truly insipid columns (rare is the Duke basketball writer who has ever been Crazie), the paper has started to neglect to mention upcoming games. On Wednesday, there was no mention of the game that evening. I heard from a number of students on Wednesday afternoon who expressed their surprise to hear that there were a game that evening. The paper also has stopped printing the Head Line Monitor's letter to the editor reminding students of the policy for the evening. That letter was often my reminder freshman year that there was a game that evening, and I went and yelled. While there are a number of different ways Line Monitors try to reach students, the Chronicle is by far the most effective. Line Monitors are not responsible for drumming up student support/attendence, it is something we do because we desperately love Duke basketball, and yet our best and most basic potential ally does nothing to assist these efforts.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-07-2008, 10:26 AM
How about you old farts show up and fill the upper deck for the "dog games", too? From the pictures I've seen and then people I've talked to who went, the top was just as proportionately empty as the student section.

Yes, as I commented before, the "old farts" attendance on Wednesday night was pitiful, and I think that's who K was mostly talking to in his post game press conference more than the students.

But as Carlos pointed out, getting to games for some is quite an expensive and time consuming endeavor. Not all of us live within an hour of Cameron. The folks who populate this board, from its earliest Juliovision days, make arrangements to have their tickets used when life prohibits them from flying to Durham from Atlanta, Tampa or Vermont and attending. And, quite honestly, you are preaching to the choir.

DukeCO2009, for students and grad students it is all about time management. You want to go to the games, schedule your time accordingly - us old farts have to. You know right now what the schedule is right through the FSU game on March 3rd, and what time the each game starts. It is up to the collective you to schedule your study time to be able to attend the games. Blow off a paper or studying for a test until the night before it is due such that you have to miss a game, shame on the collective you. You get sick, have a personal emergency or similar, then you're excused for missing a game.

shotrocksplitter
11-07-2008, 10:35 AM
All the students who read this will be there, what can be done about the rest of them?

Bluedog
11-07-2008, 10:41 AM
You do realize that they actually pump millions of dollars into the program that actually pays for those scholarships that keeps the team on the floor?

Well, students do pump millions into the university through paying $160,000 in tuition during their four years...Obviously, I understand that this money doesn't specifically go to the scholarship fund, though, so your point is well taken. But it's not really "free" - I liked to think of it as I was already paying for it through my tuition so I felt obligated to go (obviously, I wanted to go too)! ;)

I definitely agree with shotrocksplitter's points. I think the changing of what a typical Duke student is (there is no "typical" Duke student, but many are very academic focused ones who don't care about sports) is the biggest key.


All the students who read this will be there, what can be done about the rest of them?

Exactly.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-07-2008, 10:52 AM
One idea for the seats upstairs is that the tickets for exhibition games be sold separately from the season's tickets. The season's ticket holders would have first opportunity to buy, but any seats unsold that way should be marketed to the public well ahead of time. Open up those games to the many people who beg for any opportunity to see Duke play. I've already mentioned what Eddie Cameron used to do to fill the student sections when the sections weren't full.

Currently season's ticket holders can opt out of those games, but I haven't noticed any publicity that the seats are available for purchase for those games. I have been opting out of those games thinking that it would create an opportunity for someone else to get into Cameron.

As for the Blue and White game, it's had several versions over the years. I used to enjoy the format that included the alumni being recognized and playing. Another way to do that could be some suitable video clips of some of Duke's greats from the past. Including an alumni component gives the newest fans a sense of our history and traditions as well as recognizing what the basketball program accomplished over the years. Duke is so much more than just this year's team or the last time we won a national championship.

dukeENG2003
11-07-2008, 11:28 AM
1 - The personality of the new Duke student. While Duke has been academically elite for some time, I don't think we can legitimately argue that it has ever been more competitive. Each new freshmen class, along with a new group of 2, 3, and 4 guards, brings Duke a more academically cutthroat group of 1600. I sit on the bus and hear "my life is going to end, fail fail fail, I got a 94%!" The new typical Duke student's priorities have basketball a long distant second or worse to school. Increasingly, greek life activities keep potential Crazies from coming out to games as well.

I will indeed argue that its always been this competitive. The only reason people are freaking out saying that a 94% is a problem is the rampant grade inflation that permeates ALL college campuses (it becomes a lot harder to seperate yourself when the average is set at a B). However, if you think students before weren't interested in getting the best grades they could, you're deluding yourself.

pratt '04
11-07-2008, 11:32 AM
Currently season's ticket holders can opt out of those games, but I haven't noticed any publicity that the seats are available for purchase for those games.

They're for sale on goduke.com right now.

millerecu
11-07-2008, 12:06 PM
Not being a Duke grad I don't really have a legitimate argument, but being a Duke fan since I could hold my head up I will give it anyway. I attend any game I am lucky enough to find tickets for that are not $500 per seat. I drive 3 hours each way and usually plan my entire WORK week around each game whether or not I am going or watching it on TV so I don't understand why students can't find it possible to make it each and every game they get a "free" ticket. Although my biggest complaint are the people that attend but do not pay attention or cheer for that matter. I was lucky enough to attend the game on Wednesday night and the people that sat next to me read a paper and/or a magazine the entire time. I also saw two or three people in the blue seats at each end of the court doing the same. All I could think to myself was "why can't I be lucky enough to have these seats", cause if I did I can guarantee the people around me and not around me for that matter would know who I am due to my relentless cheering and yelling at the refs.

Edouble
11-07-2008, 12:21 PM
First, Duke has had a midnight madness twice that I remember, both times when we had large freshman classes after mass early exoduses. K wanted a way to introduce the frosh to the big time atmosphere they would soon see in early season tournaments.

The two midnight madnesses that I recall and that I attended were in the Fall of 1997 and the Fall of 2001, and introduced the "Killers Bs" + Avery, and the Williams, Dunleavy, Boozer, Sanders classes respectively. Just a minor point, only the latter really followed a mass early exodus.

Another minor point, in one of the open practices that I attended early on, I think it was 1996, Mickie Krzyzewski herself was handing out Nike shirts. Actually, it may have been at the 6th man meeting that year before the Carolina game. Regardless, I thought it was pretty cool that we got a free shirt (it was one of those black shirts with the "6" on it) and that Mrs. K was handing them out herself. It had a real grassroots feel to it.

Something intimate like that is sometimes a better bonding experience than a huge midnight madness with strobe lights, dancing, and a motorcycle.

I remember finding out about open practices et al in the Chronicle when I was a student. Perhaps, if the Chronicle is no longer helping to spread the word about basketball, it will take a bit for people to realize that they need to rely on themselves to find out about basketball events. I know that when I was at Duke, I wouldn't bother to look elsewhere for this information, as I read the Chronicle slowly, but pretty much in its entirety throughout the day, every day, as I waited for buses, and for classes to begin, etc., and you could always rely on basketball to be announced in its pages.

VaDukie
11-07-2008, 02:56 PM
A poll of ACC players overwhelmingly picked Duke as the toughest gym in the league

http://www.newsobserver.com/734/story/1284233.html

weezie
11-07-2008, 04:54 PM
Even in spite of the fact that we are so gracious and welcoming?;)

"HI TYLER!!!!!!":D

nyr484
11-07-2008, 05:49 PM
"It's actually funny, some of the stuff they do. They're just so loud. Coach Greenberg can be, like two feet away from me and I can't even hear what he's saying."

-- Virginia Tech forward A.D. Vassallo

Nice.

dukemomLA
11-08-2008, 02:36 AM
But.....hundreds of vacant seats at Cameron for the first two games disgusts me. If I didn't live almost 3000 miles away, I'd KILL (...well not really) for a chance to seat myself at Cameron for a BB game.

godukecom
11-08-2008, 10:37 AM
I would give anything to go to any game in cameron... those of you who have season tickets and werent able to go should seriously consider giving that game's tickets away to the thousands of duke fans like me who have been to less than 5 games at cameron in their life.

blazindw
11-08-2008, 02:01 PM
There was also a Midnight practice in Fall 2003. There wasn't one in Fall 2001, the Williams/Dunleavy/Boozer/Sanders class was Fall 1999.

As a former HLM, I would also like to chime in on the attendance debate. When I was at Duke, I only missed one men's basketball game and one football game. I also regularly attended other sporting events on campus and road games, including women's basketball, men's and women's tennis, men's and women's soccer and lacrosse. As uber-involved as many people know I was in college, I valued my time in K-Ville over anything else. And this was also while taking 5 classes, taking the LSAT twice and applying to law school. That was my priority. I never criticized anyone else for priorities that equalled mine, but rather encouraged people to make time to go to games. Sometimes, we gave people the night off from tenting not because it was cold outside but to give people a chance to relax and take care of their studies. We opened the IM building so people could come in and do work and get out from the elements. We made sure as many people as possible could balance life, school and basketball and keep the stands full.

Now, as HLM, we also had a few games in the preseason that had empty seats, and the Athletic Department took away some seats from the students. What happened? The students responded, and we got those seats back.

What does it take to make sure the bottom is always full? It takes coordination from everyone. We coordinated with the grad students, the band and even the cheerleaders. Whoever could fill the seats, we made sure they were full together, because we viewed the lower bowl as one cohesive unit, The Cameron Crazies.

When I was there, we also encouraged spontaneity as well as people thinking up cheers in the comfort of their dorm rooms or by flashlight in their tent. But what is true about Cameron is that you don't know what you're missing until it's set and done. I try my hardest to get back for a few games a year, but I'd love to be there for every game if I had the chance.

I would encourage all students still there to take advantage of the opportunity they have while in school to attend games of the best college basketball program in America in the greatest basketball arena that ever stood...for free. Of course we can be upset that there are empty seats in Cameron, both downstairs and upstairs. But instead of chastizing just the students, we should think of ways to 1) encourage students to fill the seats downstairs and 2) encourage Iron Dukes not going to games to give their tickets to people who they know will attend so that seats are full everywhere for every game.

dukestheheat
11-08-2008, 02:57 PM
This may sound like a nerdy comment, but I do remember standing for the team during the games, but then at halftime, having some reading to do and actually doing it then. If that's what I had to do, I did it. I distinctly remember reading several scientific papers right there at halftime of some of the games. I know for sure I worked while I was in line to get in.

dth.

blazindw
11-08-2008, 03:11 PM
This may sound like a nerdy comment, but I do remember standing for the team during the games, but then at halftime, having some reading to do and actually doing it then. If that's what I had to do, I did it. I distinctly remember reading several scientific papers right there at halftime of some of the games. I know for sure I worked while I was in line to get in.

dth.

Due to security restrictions, most games they don't allow bookbags into Cameron now. However, you can bring in individual books, and yes, when I camped out, I would sometimes bring my book into line and then throw it into my tent before I went inside.

throatybeard
11-08-2008, 04:17 PM
11e) The Cameron Crazies suck now; we were so much cleverer/wilder/more dedicated when I was 20.

11k) The damn kids don’t support the team any more. Let me explain how much more effective I would be in those stands despite my varicose veins and my mortgage debt.

:rolleyes:

merry
11-08-2008, 06:26 PM
11e) The Cameron Crazies suck now; we were so much cleverer/wilder/more dedicated when I was 20.

11k) The damn kids don’t support the team any more. Let me explain how much more effective I would be in those stands despite my varicose veins and my mortgage debt.

:rolleyes:

Amazing that we don't have an item on the handy reference for "I would give anything to see just one game in Cameron and wish those stupid Iron Dukes who don't show up would make their seats available... but don't ask me why I don't come to any of the 2 to 7 games per year where the tickets are on sale to the general public".

zingit
11-08-2008, 11:15 PM
We opened the IM building so people could come in and do work and get out from the elements. We made sure as many people as possible could balance life, school and basketball and keep the stands full.

Unfortunately, studying in the IM building isn't allowed anymore. I believe it was two years ago that the line monitors raided the IM building, took people's Dukecards if they were studying in there, and then immediately called a check to punish those tents. People were pretty ticked off because a lot of people didn't know about that rule, and the line monitors hadn't been enforcing it until then. I think the line monitors had let the power go to their heads a little bit. It was a mini-scandal in K-ville. True story.

So yeah, if you have to study in K-ville at night, you'll probably be shivering and straining your eyes. Ah, the sacrifices we make! :rolleyes:

Edouble
11-08-2008, 11:30 PM
There was also a Midnight practice in Fall 2003. There wasn't one in Fall 2001, the Williams/Dunleavy/Boozer/Sanders class was Fall 1999.

Oops, good call, what was I thinking?

Fun Fact: I still have my free black Nike socks that were handed out during the Fall '97 Midnight Madness.

Jumbo
11-09-2008, 03:43 AM
Initial caveat -- I haven't managed to read the whole thread yet. But, it's pretty easy to see where this is going, because it happens every year, without fail. There's a reason Throaty's pocket guide has section 11 (http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/DBRHPR7.1asPDF.pdf), particularly 11E.

Anyway, I'm able to come to this from a different perspective, so allow me to share the following observations:

1) One of the things that irritates me most about K is when he complains like this about the students. He simply can't treat the students the same way he treats his team. I understand his military background. I understand his high expectations and his insistence on being perfect every day. But, in the end, basketball is an extracurricular activity for Duke's students, and there are other more pressing matters. I wish he'd let this go, even if he's just trying to fire everyone up for the coming season.

2) I find it hard to get worked up about an exhibition game. And you all know how much I love Duke hoops.

3) It bothers me when alums decide to go after the students every year ... except for the excellent idea of alllowing a standby line. If the students don't fill their section, I love the idea of allowing other fans to wait in line for empty seats. But, otherwise, leave the kids alone.

4) One of the things people don't realize about college -- not just at Duke, and not even simply at peer institutions -- is that times change. And they don't just change generationally -- shifts happen much more quickly. I know alums from the '80s who said there was no way they'd have been admitted in the '90s, alums from the '90s who say they wouldn't have been admitted early this decade, and alums from early this decade who say they probably wouldn't have gotten into Duke (or other highly competitive schools) now. When schools don't increase the size of the student body and the populatoin continues to grow, admissions will always become more selective.
Add the increasing burden placed on kids from a very young age to prepare for college, more and more emphasis on college resume padding, SAT prep courses, etc. and you have the recipe for a changing student body.

5) This is a gross overgeneralization, but today's college-aged students have been defined as a pre-professional generation, driven by over-scheduled childhoods, hard-charging soccer moms, emphasis on specialization (whether it's one sport or any other special talent) and a lot of pressure. Many of the highest achievers from this generation come to Duke.
Now, that doesn't mean that all of them don't know how to party, let loose, whatever. But as I've gotten to know kids in this generation, there is an overriding sense of competition, the need to make every experience a meaningful form of preparation for a successful future and the idea that if you're resting on your laurels, or not being productive, you're losing ground. Once again, this hardly applies to every 18-21-year old I know, but it is prevalent in today's culture.

6) Because of this, you have the recipe for an ever-changing student body. I remember being at a game five years ago and being shocked, amazed and disappointed by how few of the Cameron Crazies actually understood basketball. I also know Duke students from recent years who were big basketball fans and even high school jocks, who wouldn't go to the games because they'd rather watch on TV than participate in an environment that included people trying to get on TV or dress up in silly outfits, rather than care about or understand basketball. It bothered me when they referred to the Crazies as "nerds," but there is a segment of the Duke population that regards them that way. (Current students, feel free to correct me, but these are the stories I get.) This makes me sad. You also have to wonder what percentage of the student population actually cares about basketball. Is it enough to fill the student section for every game? Who knows?

7) I hate, hate, hate when Duke alums try to own the phrase "work hard, play hard." I can't tell you how many other schools claim to be known for the same thing. There's nothing unique about Duke in that regard, and it's an incredible example of alums glorifying their own college experiences.

8) Everyone needs to understand each other a little better. Alums (and Coach K), it's really petty to get worked up about low attendance for an exhibition game the night after the election. That's a valid excuse.
At the same time, students, I hope you can learn to ease up and live a little. Given ever-present grade inflation and the fact that you were all high achievers, there's no way you can't fit basketball games (if they matter to you) into your schedule. There's still plenty of time to study. Someone mentioned "preparing for law school." I can't even imagine what that means as an undergrad. Basically, that involves taking the LSATs and sending out applicatoins. I know dozens of people who graduated from elite universities (Duke included) who managed to get all their apps and LSAT stuff done quite easily, with plenty of time to enjoy college life. Obviously, it's a cost/benefit thing. If you'd rather go to a concert or a party or a play or anything else than a basketball game, that absolutely is a valid choice. I just don't like it when students boil things down to "I can either go the basketball game or study." No, there is ALWAYS time in college for activities other than studying. ALWAYS. Live. That's my post-grad advice.

Anyway, as always, this won't be an issue in about a month. The student section will be packed and loud. Let's all remember that we're on the same team and stop getting on each other because you might have gone to college in a different era and don't recognize how times change. In the end, this is such a minor issue. Seriously, let this one go.

P.S. I think this was my most Throatybeardian post ever. I'm quote proud.

dukegirlinsc
11-09-2008, 03:30 PM
"It's actually funny, some of the stuff they do. They're just so loud. Coach Greenberg can be, like two feet away from me and I can't even hear what he's saying."

-- Virginia Tech forward A.D. Vassallo

Nice.

HAHA. Goodie. :rolleyes:

Cameron
11-09-2008, 04:27 PM
I am also saddened whenever I see a large number of empty seats in our gothic wonderland.

Like DukemomLA, if I didn't live so far away and if everyday obligations weren't an issue, I would most definitely pay to hit up each and every game in Durham. There is no doubt about it. It's my opinion that many who have that chance -- at least those who haven't been showing in the eyes of Coach -- simply take it for granted. (I understand that school work and life get in the way sometimes, but, like another poster pointed out, it's two hours... Come on now.)

I will, however, being doing my part to fill up Cameron's small rafters later in the season, when I fly down from Ohio to partake in two games of Blue Devil basketball (Virginia Tech and Miami). And I absolutely cannot wait!

willywoody
11-09-2008, 07:52 PM
you're right jumbo you didn't read the thread.

while there's been a little student bashing by alumni, the thread in general has been pretty civil and has come up with some good ideas such as:

1) the blue-white game may need a little revamping to improve preseason interest, including a little more coach and player comments/speeches, maybe bringing back the former players, better time for the event, possible free open admission, and maybe a contest for the students.

2) there needs to be better on campus promotion of the preseason games.

3) the athletic dept. needs to do a better job publicizing when there are tickets for sale to the general public.

and some more are buried in there but those are the ones off the top of my head.

and now the new category: 36ddd for when longtime dbr posters jump to conclusions.
;)

zingit
11-09-2008, 10:13 PM
I've read the whole thread, and I don't think Jumbo was off-base. The tone has been more or less civil, but there has been some student-bashing and certainly the tone of "I was/would be such a better Cameron Crazie than than this current crop of losers." Maybe I'm just extra-sensitive because I am a student, but that's the sense I've been getting from a number of posts here. Plus, Jumbo's first point directly addresses Coach K, who definitely did complain about the students. Not saying there haven't been constructive ideas offered here for how to boost attendance, just saying that I don't think Jumbo is clueless here. In fact, I think he was right on target.

Kedsy
11-09-2008, 11:46 PM
I've read the whole thread, and I don't think Jumbo was off-base. The tone has been more or less civil, but there has been some student-bashing and certainly the tone of "I was/would be such a better Cameron Crazie than than this current crop of losers." Maybe I'm just extra-sensitive because I am a student, but that's the sense I've been getting from a number of posts here.

I'm an alumnus and I agree Jumbo was more or less on point. It both bothers and amuses me to hear former students talk about how it was so much better in their day. It also bothers and amuses me to hear current students say us old folks have no idea what it's like to be a student and their burdens are so heavy they can't attend a basketball game.

But it just plain bothers me to hear a student say, "Leave us alone, we'll show up for the good games," which is what happened early on in this thread and which I think is what set some people off.

Jumbo
11-10-2008, 12:15 AM
you're right jumbo you didn't read the thread.

while there's been a little student bashing by alumni, the thread in general has been pretty civil and has come up with some good ideas such as:

1) the blue-white game may need a little revamping to improve preseason interest, including a little more coach and player comments/speeches, maybe bringing back the former players, better time for the event, possible free open admission, and maybe a contest for the students.

2) there needs to be better on campus promotion of the preseason games.

3) the athletic dept. needs to do a better job publicizing when there are tickets for sale to the general public.

and some more are buried in there but those are the ones off the top of my head.

and now the new category: 36ddd for when longtime dbr posters jump to conclusions.
;)

Actually, I've since read the entire thread and stand by everything I said.

camcraz25
11-10-2008, 12:15 AM
Oops, good call, what was I thinking?

Fun Fact: I still have my free black Nike socks that were handed out during the Fall '97 Midnight Madness.

There was in fact a midnight madness in 1999, my freshman year, when Boozer, Williams, Dunleavy, etc. came in.

DukeCO2009
11-10-2008, 01:31 AM
But it just plain bothers me to hear a student say, "Leave us alone, we'll show up for the good games," which is what happened early on in this thread and which I think is what set some people off.

I think you're misinterpreting the sentiment of my posts. This isn't a matter of scoffing at the notion of attending preseason games, as your comment implies. Let's say you love the beach--you really, really, really love the beach. You would rather be at the beach than nearly anywhere else in the world. You also have a demanding job, which, unfortunately, cuts into the amount of time you're able to spend at the beach. Nevertheless, you try to get down there as often as you can. One Thursday afternoon, your wife calls you up: "Hey, DBR Poster X, let's take tomorrow off and spend a long weekend down at the beach." You're excited--while it would be a hassle, you could probably reschedule a few things, take the trip, and have a relaxing weekend. You remember, though, that the forecast is less than ideal, they're doing construction all up and down I-40, and you've got a killer week staring you in the face when you get back Sunday night. You think for a moment, and ultimately decide to tell your wife that you think you should stay in town. The weather and traffic, after all, will be better next week. If you stay an extra few hours tonight, you'll be able to get ahead on next week's load, which will allow you to take next Friday off. All said, next week looks much better. You love the beach just as much as you ever have, and you're pretty bummed that you couldn't make it down this weekend. You realize, however, that if you go down this weekend, you probably won't be able to go next weekend when the conditions will be infinitely better.

In short, give us a break. We had midterms, the election was the night before, the game was poorly publicized, etc. I know a good many people who decided to skip the game in order to put themselves in a better position to come out this coming week. We students face tradeoffs. Jumbo, point taken about all of us loosening up. If it were up to me, we all would. Problem is that I can't justify slacking if I'm the only one doing it. That's not relaxing; it's loosing ground. Ah, college...

willywoody
11-10-2008, 08:56 AM
Actually, I've since read the entire thread and stand by everything I said.

Very well, I've been trying coax people to come up with ideas to help eradicate the poor attendance at exhibition games and early season games. However, as you stated :



2) I find it hard to get worked up about an exhibition game. And you all know how much I love Duke hoops.

and that I just don't agree with, as I've stated elswhere in this thread. Have you never had a lasting memory from any exhibition game or blue-white game?

shotrocksplitter
11-10-2008, 11:07 AM
Have you never had a lasting memory from any exhibition game or blue-white game?

Been to all of them in the last 4 seasons, and nope. The only thing I can remember is that Zoubek played well his freshman blue/white and was terrible the rest of the year.

Ders24
11-10-2008, 11:52 AM
Been to all of them in the last 4 seasons, and nope. The only thing I can remember is that Zoubek played well his freshman blue/white and was terrible the rest of the year.

Completely agree -- I usually just find that Blue/White gives me an inaccurate feeling for what the season is going to bring.

MulletMan
11-10-2008, 02:59 PM
Have you never had a lasting memory from any exhibition game or blue-white game?


Honestly.... no. Nothing stands out from 8 years worth of both. Save for people having huge Blue-White games that built up expectations without due reason...

Calling Casey Sanders.... Casey Sanders to the floor...

DukeCO2009
11-10-2008, 05:46 PM
Honestly.... no. Nothing stands out from 8 years worth of both. Save for people having huge Blue-White games that built up expectations without due reason...

Calling Casey Sanders.... Casey Sanders to the floor...

Horvath, McRoberts, Shav, etc.

Devilhawks
11-10-2008, 11:17 PM
Deafening silence in this thread right now ;-)

We had to turn away students at the door tonight.

willywoody
11-11-2008, 02:11 AM
Like that makes up for not going to a previous game. Don't they actually teach logic at Duke anymore? That's like the friend who only stops by when you're having a party.

dukemomLA
11-11-2008, 02:37 AM
Some of us truly appreciate your comments and concerns as a current student. It's a hard road to travel as a fan and a student. Know that some of us want nothing more than for you guys to succeed with your studies (more than anything), and to help us DBR fans to make sure that CIS is filled to the rafters every day. Again thanks. DukemomLA

miramar
11-11-2008, 09:20 AM
Been to all of them in the last 4 seasons, and nope. The only thing I can remember is that Zoubek played well his freshman blue/white and was terrible the rest of the year.

I think the explanation for Zoubek's performance during that game (which as I recall even featured him diving for loose balls, but I may be mistaken) was that he was going up against McBob, and so it was a reflection of what he thought about him. Maybe he needs to do some mental imaging where he imagines that every opponent is his old "friend."

davekay1971
11-11-2008, 09:40 AM
In short, give us a break. We had midterms, the election was the night before, the game was poorly publicized, etc. I know a good many people who decided to skip the game in order to put themselves in a better position to come out this coming week. We students face tradeoffs. Jumbo, point taken about all of us loosening up. If it were up to me, we all would. Problem is that I can't justify slacking if I'm the only one doing it. That's not relaxing; it's loosing ground. Ah, college...

Forgive me sounding like an old fart, but Duke your four years at Duke will probably be the easiest and most leisure-filled of your adult life. Being too busy doesn't cut it as an excuse. Not wanting to go, because it's an exhibition game and you've got something you'd rather do with you time - now that's an acceptable excuse. Call it what it is - it was an exhibition game and the students just weren't that pumped for it.

BlueDevil2K
11-11-2008, 10:06 AM
Deafening silence in this thread right now ;-)

We had to turn away students at the door tonight.

OK...I'll bite. The above statement is somewhat disingenuous. There were approximately 600 students at last night's game, before the fire marshal declared the student section full at (approximately) tip-off time. The fact that students were turned away was more a statement of reduced supply, rather than increased demand. Had the entire student section (1200 seats) been available, there would have been hundreds of empty seats...

Now, the athletic department's efforts to fill these seats in other ways was also apparently a failure, judging by those seats relatively emptiness. I wonder why that was...?

Here's the N&O's take:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/duke-students-squeezed-at-cameron

Kedsy
11-11-2008, 10:41 AM
OK...I'll bite. The above statement is somewhat disingenuous. There were approximately 600 students at last night's game, before the fire marshal declared the student section full at (approximately) tip-off time. The fact that students were turned away was more a statement of reduced supply, rather than increased demand. Had the entire student section (1200 seats) been available, there would have been hundreds of empty seats...

Well that article says they roped off a total of 325 seats. Was it really closer to 600? If so, that's outrageous. In my opinion there should never be a situation where students are turned away.

Sure, I understand it's difficult to both make sure every student who wants one can get a seat and also make sure every seat is filled, but if you have to error, I think you should err on the side of the students.

And even if it's only 300 seats they took away, I hope it's not a permanent thing. Hey, Duke students, those seats are yours! Fight for your rights and get your seats back! Having said that, I suppose the best way to do it is to show up in droves. If 1200 kids show up every game they'll have no choice but to open the seats back up again.

BlueDevil2K
11-11-2008, 10:52 AM
The 325 seats that were referenced in the article was probably an overestimate - it seemed more like 200. These were at either end of the TV side, not including the normal graduate seats at the non-band end. What wasn't included in the article was the fact that the entire non-TV side was also reserved/sold, which accounts for several hundred more seats.

The estimated capacity for the student section (before the doors even opened) last night was 600.

Acymetric
11-11-2008, 10:52 AM
Well that article says they roped off a total of 325 seats. Was it really closer to 600? If so, that's outrageous. In my opinion there should never be a situation where students are turned away.

Sure, I understand it's difficult to both make sure every student who wants one can get a seat and also make sure every seat is filled, but if you have to error, I think you should err on the side of the students.

And even if it's only 300 seats they took away, I hope it's not a permanent thing. Hey, Duke students, those seats are yours! Fight for your rights and get your seats back! Having said that, I suppose the best way to do it is to show up in droves. If 1200 kids show up every game they'll have no choice but to open the seats back up again.

What you're forgetting (or didn't know) is that because we're hosting a tournament, tickets had to be made available to the other team. More than we usually provide to visitors, I think. Since they can't really take away tickets from season ticket holders, the only place to get extra tickets is to sell seats in the student section.

After Presbyterian didn't sell all their allotted tickets, the unsold tickets were returned to Duke to be sold as general admission seats to the public. I imagine a similar situation will occur tonight, and after that I would expect it to be back to normal. I could be completely wrong here, but from what I've heard people say and what I've seen myself, I'm pretty sure thats what happened.

blazindw
11-11-2008, 01:31 PM
What you're forgetting (or didn't know) is that because we're hosting a tournament, tickets had to be made available to the other team. More than we usually provide to visitors, I think. Since they can't really take away tickets from season ticket holders, the only place to get extra tickets is to sell seats in the student section.

After Presbyterian didn't sell all their allotted tickets, the unsold tickets were returned to Duke to be sold as general admission seats to the public. I imagine a similar situation will occur tonight, and after that I would expect it to be back to normal. I could be completely wrong here, but from what I've heard people say and what I've seen myself, I'm pretty sure thats what happened.

I assume that's what it was. This has happened in the past. You will probably see the same thing tonight since the Houston-Presbyterian game is the early game.

Lulu
11-11-2008, 07:47 PM
I much preferred the notion that K was temporarily taking those seats away from an unappreciative student body. Too bad the truth may have leaked. The students need to realize that CIS is truly unique in the sports world, and that there will never be a better basketball program in a more intimate setting, and they get front row seats! If Duke made CIS seats publicly available at market value they would be some of the most expensive and hard-to-get seats in basketball. Students largely wouldn't be able to afford tickets when UNC comes to town. Someone else mentioned earlier that they needed to view attendance at these early games as the cost of admission for later games; I fully agree.

And don't pull the "we have to study" nonsense. I'm sure there were PLENTY of hours in the week that were not spent studying. If studying was your only other activity in the week you could probably go to 10 games. I did a dual engineering major not so long ago and it was never a problem; worse case, I remember trying to pull a book out at halftime once. After basketball (including the wait in line), and studying and a few activities I was committed to there was still more than enough time leftover than I knew what to do with it, and far more after that spent just hanging around with friends. It might not seem like it, but college is leisure time. A couple weeks of classes at Duke would seem like a vacation these days.

It's simply a matter of what it's worth to the current students. If the students don't care as much now, or are spoiled, or have prevailing interests, so be it. The athletic program can adjust. It's absurd to think the student body has always had an equal interest in the program every single year anyway. All that those of us who have done it can do is warn the current students that they might not realize how great they have it until later.

I mean, aside from giving up the entire front sections of the stadium to students, Duke doesn't even charge students admission. I've never met an outsider who wasn't stunned by this when told.

throatybeard
11-11-2008, 08:16 PM
P.S. I think this was my most Throatybeardian post ever. I'm quote proud.

And I'm proud of you.

What amazes me is that adults over 30 have time to worry about how many kids went to a basketball game.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-11-2008, 08:27 PM
And I'm proud of you.

What amazes me is that adults over 30 have time to worry about how many kids went to a basketball game.
Yes.... and how much they are studying or otherwise using their time in college.

dukemath
11-24-2008, 06:52 PM
Pardon me if someone already posted this. Evidently someone has a beef with the Crazies.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-pagetwo23-2008nov23,0,1095614.story

As a recent alum, I think that his position is poorly researched. Although some of our chants can be cruel, I don't recall too many of them being "R-Rated". In fact Coach K has always asked us to keep it classy. I could think of a lot of fan sections that are more crass than ours (e.g. Maryland).

shadowfax336
11-24-2008, 06:58 PM
Pardon me if someone already posted this. Evidently someone has a beef with the Crazies.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-pagetwo23-2008nov23,0,1095614.story

As a recent alum, I think that his position is poorly researched. Although some of our chants can be cruel, I don't recall too many of them being "R-Rated". In fact Coach K has always asked us to keep it classy. I could think of a lot of fan sections that are more crass than ours (e.g. Maryland).

Wow... I can understand criticism of the Crazies and will listen to it... But this is just junk. Given that its a quick hit list, I don't expect him to back everything he says up, but you can't use hyperbole like that if you're not going to at least try to back it up. Scale it back about 90 degrees please...

RainingThrees
11-24-2008, 07:02 PM
guy is just looking for attention.

taiw93
11-24-2008, 07:04 PM
"The Duke student section. Listen up, you little punks. Pride in your team is one thing. But you've helped turn college hoops into a rancorous R-rated spectacle, from which mothers shield their young 'uns. I guess sportsmanship wasn't an essay question on the SATs."

Sorry to vent a little but: Wow what a(n) (insert offensive swear word here). This writer seems to have some sort of perosnal vendetta aqainst Duke students. First of all, his information is not even correct - Crazies have been known for how clever their cheers are, and it's places like Maryland, and like Oregon and Illinois (when Love and Gordon visited) that are offernsive. Not only is he flat out wrong, he just sounds in general P-O-ed at Duke for whatever reason - a writer who calls students "little punks" in the first sentence immediately loses credibility in my book. It's obvious that this guy was wait-listed (and subsequently rejected) from Duke. So yeah, Chris Erskine (the writer), sportsmanship will not help you get into college, but the ability to do good research, which you certainly lack if this article is any indication, will.
Oh, and I would nominate this author for honorable mention on his own All-Ego Team.

CameronBornAndBred
11-24-2008, 07:05 PM
Sounds like a guy who should stick to writing about what he's familiar with, West Coast stories. I highly doubt he's been in Cameron. What an ignoramus.

BlueintheFace
11-24-2008, 07:19 PM
Crazies have good reason to be egotistical, they are the best after all;)

CameronCrazy'11
11-24-2008, 07:33 PM
Puh-lease. We're not even the most R-rated student section in the ACC. I don't seem to remember a f--- you Tyler chant at the UNC game last year, or us telling anyone to go back to the ghetto. The reason we're the best student section is not because we're more offensive than anyone else, it's because no one can match our level of sustained intensity throughout every possession of the game and for every game of the year.

Huh?
11-24-2008, 07:44 PM
Maryland anyone?

Ders24
11-24-2008, 07:46 PM
hahahahhahahahahahaah

bigj4194
11-24-2008, 07:57 PM
wow...this guy doesn't know us at all. his comments are kinda funny actually

Diddy
11-24-2008, 08:15 PM
The guy has a valid point, even if he didn't actually make it. The crazies started the trend of loud student sections really trying to needle opposing players. Nearly every other school in the nation tried to copy us. Problem is, they can't. So their students resort to childish vulgarity, because they can't do better.

Also, for an alternative theory, allow me to postulate this. Jealousy. Not of the Crazies themselves, per se (but that is a little bit of it). Do you know which fans complain the loudest about Cameron? Those fans whose schools sold their souls to the boosters in exchange for a monsterous arena. An arena where the only ones near the game are the Fat Cat Boosters, and the poor students have only a tiny corner where they can barely be seen, much less heard.

Cameron is always a great environment. Sometimes it is better than other times. But compared to some other arenas, where it is deathly silent as the boosters suck down Vino and Fromage, Cameron is FUN. It is a great place for Students to watch their team. Very few other schools can boast that, and it just kills their fans.

Cavlaw
11-24-2008, 08:30 PM
Congratulations on giving him more hits.

Bluedog
11-24-2008, 09:37 PM
Kobe Bryant and A-Rod join us, so it's not like we're in bad company. :D

hurleyfor3
11-24-2008, 09:37 PM
If ya'll want you can come up with an All-Insipid Writer Team and give him a spot next to Greg Doily.

miramar
11-25-2008, 09:37 AM
This is rather bizarre since the crazies don't even use such words as "suck," which would be considered rather tame in most places. And as far as FU, add Miami to the list, as last year their student section started an FU Paulus cheer on his first and third free throws when he was fouled while shooting a three.

Frank Haith sat through the whole thing and it wasn't until after the free throws that the announcer reminded the crowd that profanity wasn't allowed.

Unfortunately, many people simply assume that the Crazies must be vulgar because everybody else is.

CameronBornAndBred
11-25-2008, 09:59 AM
This guy needs to read this article, which is well written (http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/11/25/sports/local/18-crazies.txt), unlike his own. Total difference of opinion, also from an outsider. (A Montana writer)
Read the whole article, it's fun and has some good points, but here is an excerpt.

"It's just the feeling you get when it gets so loud in there the brass bars around the (balcony) start ringing," Kim Marston said. "It's just the best sound."

It's a sound opponents hear when they enter Washington-Grizzly Stadium for a football game, but it's a sound that's been missing from Dahlberg Arena for all too long now.

Say what you want about winter break, or more competition for the entertainment dollar, or the rise of the football program on the UM campus; the single worst move Montana made for its basketball program was moving the students out of the east bleachers."

dukestheheat
11-25-2008, 10:29 AM
you know, it's possible this poor fellow did apply to Duke years ago and he wasn't admitted, and he's still steamed. you never know.

dth.

sagegrouse
11-25-2008, 10:36 AM
What's more, ACC coaches (Seth Greenberg being one) have stated that there is more self-control and less obscenity at Duke than at any other school in the ACC.

sagegrouse

elvis14
11-25-2008, 10:43 AM
Just curious...has anyone sent him email? chris.erskine@latimes.com
I'm tempted but I have not. I don't want to validate his opinion in any way and I don't want to lower myself to his level. At the same time, I hate just letting some idiot trash the Crazies in public (not because of what they do but mentioning stuff they don't do) without letting him know he's missed his mark badly.

KenTankerous
11-25-2008, 11:56 AM
I just sent this email:

Chris,

For the most part, I agree with your All-Ego team. But I have to take exception with your inclusion and description of the Duke Student Section.

As a University of Kentucky fan, I have reason and tradition to hate the Crazies. But as luck, and love, would have it, I fell in love with a Duke fan. I scored some tickets to a game at Cameron and experienced the Crazies first hand, front row.

Yes, they are loud. Yes, they rattle their opponents. Yes, they bring up off-court issues and work opponents' personal problems into their cheers. But none of this is ever done with R-Rated language. Coach K simply won't allow it. He has stopped games and addressed the Crazies when they have used "suck".

The phenomenon you describe with college student section turning into rancorous spectacles is other, less creative and sophisticated student sections trying to imitate the Crazies. When they fail, they turn south down the crassness highway. I agree, the treatment some students - Maryland, Oregon come to mind - rain on their opponents is reprehensible and should be censored. But blaming foul mouthed Terrapins and Ducks on the Crazies would be like blaming Sammy Sosa for Barry Bonds. It may seem on the surface a natural cause and effect but a deeper look reveals the truth that Terrapins, Ducks and Bonds created their own nastiness in imitating what they just can't muster.

You really should attend a game at Cameron. Maybe then you'd understand the difference. I know it helped turn this Kentucky fan into a whole lot less of a Duke hater. As a sports writer, you owe it to your readers to experience one of sport's greatest venues. It really is on par with Yankee Stadium, Lambeau Field, Churchill Downs, Notre Dame Stadium, etc.

Sincerely,

Ken Flaherty

CameronBornAndBred
11-25-2008, 11:59 AM
I just sent this email: The phenomenon you describe with college student section turning into rancorous spectacles is other, less creative and sophisticated student sections trying to imitate the Crazies. .....

Great letter Ken..hopefully he reads it and listens. Really well said.

Rudy
11-25-2008, 06:25 PM
Ken, I agree your email was excellent. If he engages you, you might want to bone up on the "avunclar letter" from Terry Sanford. An article from 2007 was linked by DBR here http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=21813

The article is long, but a good history of the Crazies. This passage dealt with their low point and Sanford's and Coach K's actions which had positive results:

"But the Duke crowd reached the nadir of negative notoriety early in Coach Krzyzewski’s tenure. The flash point was a game against No. 5 Maryland on Jan.14, 1984. One of the Terp standouts, forward Herman Veal, had been charged with sexually assaulting a Maryland coed in the preceding week. No formal charges had been filed, but the case had drawn considerable publicity, especially when Driesell called the coed and tried to get her to drop her charges.

That was all grist for the mill of a crowd already notorious for celebrating an opponents’ problems. When Tommy Burleson was caught breaking into a pinball machine, the pep band greeted him with a chorus of “Pinball wizard.” When Kendall “Tiny” Pinder and Tony Warren of N.C. State were caught switching price tags on underwear at an outlet store, they were showered with BVDs. Lorenzo Charles endured a barrage of pizza boxes after he was charged with robbing a pizza delivery boy.

But the assault on Veal was over the top. Not only was he bombarded with panties and condoms when he was introduced before the game, he had to endure chants of “Rape” and other ugly taunts. The closest thing to anything clever was a sign, “Hey, Herman … did you send her flowers.”

To understand how Duke was castigated in the national press for that performance, all you have to do is to recall the scene at College Park two years ago, when the Maryland students subjected J.J. Redick to every manner of obscene assault from “F*** you, J.J.” t-shirts to some chants that even I blush to remember.

Interesting that both Veal in 1984 and Redick in 2004 responded to the abuse with superb games and led their teams to victory. And both schools, embarrassed by the widespread negative national attention, took steps to clean up their crowds. By chance, Duke’s next home game in 1984 was a visit from No. 1 North Carolina. Between the Maryland and UNC games, Duke president Terry Sanford wrote what came to be known as “the avuncular letter” to the students, pleading for better behavior. Perhaps more effectively, Krzyzewski visited student groups and met with fans camped in line for the game, begging for positive support.

When UNC took the court for the game, Duke students were wearing halos fashioned out of coat hangers and covered in foil. They held signs that said, “Welcome, Honored Guests.” And the first time Dick Paparo blew a call, instead of chanting “Bulls***”, the chant was “We beg to differ.”

Alas, the good feelings didn’t last. The game was a bitter affair that featured a timeout called by Coach K that he used to stare down a young official. UNC assistant coach Bill Guthridge chased the officials off the court at halftime. And late in the game, with Duke clinging to a narrow lead, UNC’s Smith demanded that clock operator Tommy Hunt sound his horn while the ball was in play and when Hunt refused, Smith started pounding on the control panel, trying to sound it himself he missed the horn button, but added 20 points to his team’s score and created such a scene that the officials stopped play … and didn’t assess him a technical foul.

After the game, Coach K delivered his famous “double-standard” speech. What has been forgotten is that he was not talking about the officiating in the ACC (although he may have felt that way). Instead, his words were a defense of the Duke fans:

“I want to tell you something,” he told the assembled reporters. “When you come in here and start talking about how Duke has no class, you’d better start getting your stories straight because our students had class and our team had class. There was not one person on our bench who was pointing a finger at the officials or banging on the scorer’s table. So let’s get some things straight around here and quit the double standard that exits in this league!”

Krzyzewski continued to work behind the scenes to improve the behavior of the crowd. He always stressed his desire for the crowd’s enthusiasm to be expressed in a positive manner and within the bounds of good taste. Later, he would use his influence to protect certain visitors to Cameron he asked the students to lay off Wake Forest freshman Loren Woods, a kid with acknowledged psychological problems; and not to harass St. John’s standout Eric Barkley for NCAA troubles that Krzyzewski felt were unfair."

michaelking
11-25-2008, 07:48 PM
Cutting to the chase... I read the article on the Billings Gazette dot com page & it sounded rather typical of far-away, non-conference visitors who return with stories of Carolina BBQ & Blue Devil Basketball... until the end of the article, that is... here is a portion of the article that made me cringe:

And what if Duke ripped out the bleachers and replaced them with revenue-producing seats?
"They won't do it because they know we make such a difference," Marston said. "They know they need us there."
And if they tried?
"Coach K wouldn't let them do it," a group of Crazies shouts in unison.
This is, after all, Krzyzewskiville, where Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski is mayor.

First of all, have we already resorted to revenue-producing seats below the brass bar? I used to attend games in the late 80's and early 90's, and the atmosphere was much different... better, in fact - but there's a good reason why I bring this up. "Back then" students packed in every spot - to include the section beside the band (the band was also much larger). The students also occupied sections behind the benches and scoring table. They weren't limited to only positions across the floor from the bench, or where the grad-students inhabit... it was EVERYWHERE and when there were empty seats above the bar, some students would have to crawl up to the reserved seats where they could find room if it was cramped below in the student section. That was life & life was good. We were there for a ball game - not to get on TV. We were there to unselfishly support our team, not make ourselves appear like a great student body. WE were there to terrorize the opponent with our charm, wit, and meanness.

Cameron's changed (& I'm not talking about the scoreboard)... I believe we've brought negative (and to many, oblivious) change upon ourselves. It has resulted in letting revenue-producing seats creep into Cameron.

I don't know if it's the amount of interest that lingers after having so many successful seasons (where it just looses its luster), but as I look at many of the students during last week's and Sunday's games, I notice a different looking student section. The demographics are more complex than that of the 80's and early 90's. It "used to be" that the students were 80% male...

Now, don't get me wrong--- I'm not saying that the girls shouldn't show up --- I'm asking "where are the guys?"... There were probably an additional 200 empty spots by the time the National Anthem began. I also believe that the student sections were 50/50 - men/women. The men need to stick up for the men on the court a little more... THAT'S where the concentration of the antagonizing comes from... guys!!!

Please don't hit 'reply' hoping to comment on my political correctness... PC has no place in my heart. I'm sorry.

Back in '88, I noticed that there were very few girls in the student section & it was PACKED, louder, not a power-struggle to find out who started whatever cheers were used. Cheers began at center court by a guy w/ a hoop on his head & the rest of the student section followed. Exception: free-throw distractions.

What else?... well, I notice redundancy - the "uhhhh" thing really has to change (it is one noise, you're not distracting anyone, and you're ALWAYS doing it)... it shows no ingenuity or creativity... it's just white noise (I sleep using white noise)... no offense. Do it when opponents foul out, but not every 5 minutes!

What am I asking? Being a military officer, I find great offense when our national anthem is ruined (especially after having sounded so good by the choral group), I think we need to do more research on our opponents... having "Tinkle" as our prime punch line didn't cut it.
I'm also insisting that we crack open some old vault & check out some of the games of old.... for instance - Duke / LSU (when Laettner & co. hosted the tigers in Cameron)... That game had a lot of hype, but it was the epitome of the non-conference feel Cameron usually charges.

Any other suggestions, please don't hesitate to comment... I'm really just getting started - but I'd love to see if anyone else feels the way I do about our situation.... it's caused a lack of purpose in the student section (more so than several years ago). Something needs to be done before all of the bleachers behind the teams become blue chairs also... which would be especially sad if they weren't half-full as well (such as the revenue-producing blue seats beside the band) like recent games past.

What else can we do?

OZZIE4DUKE
11-25-2008, 08:32 PM
Yawn. 11e.

Your points are all well taken, but please read the umpteem posts in the other thread earlier this month, or last month, about the Crazies, attendance and their "performance".

michaelking
11-25-2008, 08:46 PM
Hopefully I can find some of the statements made so I'm not echoing someone else's concerns. My only hope is that a very influential crazy decides to make some stand this year (or within his / her 4 years) to make things 'real' again. Thanks for bringing those threads to my attention. I'm in & out on this board. Happy Turkeyday (I wonder if the Hokies are playing anyone this weekend?)... hmm.

Cavlaw
11-25-2008, 08:47 PM
*Retitled*

This seems like as good a place as any to collect threads related to attendance and/or criticisms of the Crazies. Any new threads on these subjects will be merged with this one to avoid cluttering up the forum during the season. We'll make exceptions as we deem necessary to make sure everyone sees important news items (for instance, if there is a particular non-conference game K wants to fill the student section for - although it should always be full!).

I would stick in the dozen older threads already up this season on the subject, as well, but I'm not in the mood to go track them down.

Duvall
11-25-2008, 08:54 PM
I believe we've brought negative (and to many, oblivious) change upon ourselves.

Cutting to the chase... "we" haven't done anything. "We" graduated years ago, if not decades. "We" need to watch the games and focus on what's happening on the court.

As long as they aren't hurting anyone, the kids in the stands, the ones that are students now, should do whatever the hell they want.

michaelking
11-25-2008, 09:03 PM
We do watch the game... I could have sworn Montana had 3 guys that were identical looking & Jimmy Baron has put on the best show in Cameron this season... hands down.

Don't get me wrong... I know it's a different day & time, and that I'm getting grey, but I'm willing to revoke my seats to squeeze in & join the crazies... sometimes I believe that's the only way 'we' don't grow old.

I wonder what Crazy Towel Guy thinks?...

michaelking
11-25-2008, 09:06 PM
My greatest concern is that the Crazies will continue losing effectiveness - to the point where the blue folding seats will be commonplace downstairs. Students come & go - as do trends, but re-organizing the student section breaks my heart more than anything - THAT'S why it's worth bringing up this topic (not because I'm tired of hearing WipeOut every first timeout).

Have a good evening.

CameronBornAndBred
11-25-2008, 09:19 PM
My greatest concern is that the Crazies will continue losing effectiveness - to the point where the blue folding seats will be commonplace downstairs.
I agree and disagree with some of your initial points, especially disagree with the gender related ones. But your "greatest concern" there is valid and it bothers me too that the true crazies seem to be fewer each year. Anyway, no discussion is worthwhile if everyone agrees, so welcome to the forums. The only idea I've seen universally agreed upon in DBR is that Carolina needs to go to Hell. All the other food for thought is what makes this the best college basketball forum (albeit biased) on the net.
GTHC!

michaelking
11-25-2008, 09:33 PM
... for not being outraged by the gender section of my post. This is, in deed, the finest college basketball forum in the galaxy, but I'm wondering if the students ever read it...

I've read your posts often & I knew you (especially) would disagree with the gender deal... it's not that there are more women... but that the section is losing guys (not that we need a quota or representation)... but you've seen the change. Do you ever wonder what it will be like 10-20 years from now. (not the gender issue, but the odd-evolution of the students & the restructuring of what was once theirs). I'm not sure if I like it. Maybe I'm just getting old.

Yes, Go to Hell Carolina! (& their gucci season w/ one ranked opponent).

Ders24
11-25-2008, 09:46 PM
... for not being outraged by the gender section of my post. This is, in deed, the finest college basketball forum in the galaxy, but I'm wondering if the students ever read it...

I've read your posts often & I knew you (especially) would disagree with the gender deal... it's not that there are more women... but that the section is losing guys (not that we need a quota or representation)... but you've seen the change. Do you ever wonder what it will be like 10-20 years from now. (not the gender issue, but the odd-evolution of the students & the restructuring of what was once theirs). I'm not sure if I like it. Maybe I'm just getting old.

Yes, Go to Hell Carolina! (& their gucci season w/ one ranked opponent).

Yes (some) students read the board, but it's going to be the ones who are attending games, so it's hard to say why others are not showing.

CameronBornAndBred
11-25-2008, 10:06 PM
I've read your posts often & I knew you (especially) would disagree with the gender deal...
Hmmm...Glad you've read my posts, but I'm not sure how to take that..lol. Just for clarifaction, I'm a long-haired hippie, not a woman. I simply disagree because I don't think it's right.:)

michaelking
11-25-2008, 10:15 PM
You had me - sorry 'bout that. But I still (somehow) knew you'd disagree - whether or not due to it being right. ... ha ha. Happy Thanksgiving! I have to get to sleep.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-25-2008, 11:51 PM
*Retitled*

This seems like as good a place as any to collect threads related to attendance and/or criticisms of the Crazies. Any new threads on these subjects will be merged with this one to avoid cluttering up the forum during the season. We'll make exceptions as we deem necessary to make sure everyone sees important news items (for instance, if there is a particular non-conference game K wants to fill the student section for - although it should always be full!).

I would stick in the dozen older threads already up this season on the subject, as well, but I'm not in the mood to go track them down.

Cavlaw, please don't do this. I can't stand when new threads are merged with months' old ones making them huge. I clicked on the link to the last post, then scrolled up to find my post to read the half dozen responses to michaelking's original post, but I have no intention of reading the other 2 or 3 pages in between these posts and those from so much earlier. Moderators merging new threads with really old ones is a real pain in the turkey. Heck, we've even had threads about this merging practice.

gep
11-26-2008, 12:18 AM
Cavlaw, please don't do this. I can't stand when new threads are merged with months' old ones making them huge.

I kinda agree with this. Even more, when I click on the "main board" down-arrow icon to get to the next unread message for me, I get post #1. Then, I gotta keep scrolling until I get to "yesterday" or so... then start reading.

I think the intent is good... but I'm not sure anyone who wants to start posting on this (or any other merged thread) will read *all* posts before posting...

So, maybe an "archive" of the posts for a subject... and let a new thread go on its own until exhausted, then merge with the "archive". If necessary, a "bump" to let new posters of an "old" subject will know where the archive is...

Just a thought....:rolleyes:

Cavlaw
11-26-2008, 01:14 AM
The purpose of merging threads is obviously to keep like things together to avoid a lot of clutter. This makes the boards easier to navigate and increases the number of different types of discussions that can appear on page one of each forum.

What use, for instance, is there in discussing the same article in three different threads - people end up repeating themselves, or referring to other threads, or miss out on interesting points.

In most cases, you don't even know we're doing it, since the redirection links are usually set to expire after an hour. If you don't come on the boards during that hour, you don't even see the redirect, and it appears that everything was part of one discussion.

There are only a few subjects that we create "collection threads" for. These are topics that will be recurrent throughout the year (and are recurrent season after season), in which many of the same arguments are repeated ad naseum infinitum. To bring anyone interested in the discussion up to speed on what's been said, we're merging them together.

We're working on developing a more fulsome policy to handle these types of topics, but threads about attendance or enthusiasm of the crazies are ones that we specifically raised in our discussions. There are a few points that I think we've agreed on that should mollify most concerns, but I don't want to speak out of turn until we get it figured out.

I gather at least a few of us agreed on this thread, since I only merged the posts that show up on page 4.

dukemomLA
11-26-2008, 02:01 AM
and... I'll probably get lambasted for this. I have found the "Crazies" over the past year or two to NOT be entitled to the name. Shame.

Granted, my daughter and son-in-law graduated in 2001 -- perhaps the most awesome and exciting 4 years cumulative in Duke history. That said, neither ever missed a game. They camped out in the snow, they stood in the rain. And there was NEVER a time that the student section wasn't full and overfull.

The cheers and signs and events were amazing creative, and still make me smile and laugh. And I truly believe that the success of the team from 1998 through 2001 was partly attriublated (sic) to the SIXTH MAN.

I ache that I am currently 3,000 miles from Cameron. The thought of there being even one seat available for me (...even in the rafters) gives me a shiver.

So.....current students get with it. Yes, all Duke students have major exams and classes...and Law School and Med School and MBAs to address... so get your work done rather than sleeping late, or staying up partying.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but the bottom line for me is that the current crop of student fans do not deserve the title of Cameron Crazies. And it pains me greatly.

jlear
11-26-2008, 07:26 AM
Many of these posts on the crazies seem destructively negative to me. I especially find it disheartening when someone thinks they can evaluate the crazies from watching TV. What a joke; the crazies most creative stuff happens off screen and off air. The crazies still annoy/harsh/distract the other team through all of warm ups & timeouts.

I was outraged by the gender comments posted; they have as much place here as comments about the student section not being as white as it used to be and you should be banned from this board, in my opinion.

Being a basketball fan is NOT required to get into Duke! Students don’t have to care at all, and many don’t. Many on this board think that being a rabid sports fan (basketball mostly) should be a requirement. It is not and I would guess that as you move up the high achiever totem pole, that would increase your chance of getting into Duke, you would find fewer and fewer people that care about sports.

There are still a bunch of kids that make basketball there top priority at Duke like my daughter in the front row and all the other kids in the first 25 tents. Many of these kids skip going aboard for a semester so they don’t miss any games. Really think about that, these kids give up the experience of studying overseas to watch the most boring basketball games of the year in person. And like it or not Nov & Dec games do not compare to the in conference games. The upstairs is much different after Jan 1; it is full and much louder upstairs. The most entertaining part of the early games is often the crazies.

Am I defending the crazies because I am the father of a current student and know many of those students, who in my opinion dedicate way too much time to basketball? Perhaps I am, but really I am saying we have little to no business telling the students at Duke what they should do, period! So this post is really just echoing what Duvall said:


Cutting to the chase... "we" haven't done anything. "We" graduated years ago, if not decades. "We" need to watch the games and focus on what's happening on the court.
As long as they aren't hurting anyone, the kids in the stands, the ones that are students now, should do whatever the hell they want.
So crazies do whatever the hell you want you have earned it!

KenTankerous
11-26-2008, 07:59 AM
Wow. That's a whole lot of - wow, just wow.

Anyway, I heard back from Chris Erskine, so he does read his emails. He referenced a rather disturbing example of Crazie crassness that I have not heard before and to which I find no link:

Did the Crazies chant PLO to Steven Kerr?

The only reference I find is from an Arizona-Arizona State game. This seems like another case of the Crazies getting tagged for other students attempted Crazies imitation. I corrected Erskine and invited him to join us for the New Years Eve game against Loyola. Granted the Xmas games aren't full on Crazie but they are affordable and the WaDuke has great rates that week.

Rudy
11-26-2008, 09:02 AM
I hadn't heard about the Kerr incident, so I looked it up. It happened in 1988 when Kerr was at Arizona University playing arch-rival Arizona State. The below reference to "eheswho" is to ASU, from some blog entry. Below that is Kerr's comment about it when he wrote about the Ron Artest retaliation against fans. Kerr suggests the offensive stuff came from just a couple of drunk ASU fans.

**************
You remember the towel-head crap with Kerr. You go way back. I remember eheswho fans masquerading as mid-easterners mocking the assassination of Kerr's father. Kind of how eheswho masquerades as a football school and their fans masquerade as football fans. lol

For those of you who may be unaware, Steve Kerr's father was the President of Beirut University and was assassinated by Arab terrorists as he stepped out of an elevator. Some sick eheswho fans made fun of his Dad's murder at the basketball game, at eheswho in Tempe, prior to an Arizona waxing of eheswho
****************


This from Kerr's article:
**************
Players are forced to endure verbal taunting all the time in sports. I once warmed up for a game at Arizona State University while two inebriated fans taunted me about the death of my father. I've had teammates endure all kinds of ugly insults, threats and barbs.
*******************
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=sk-brawl&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

cf-62
11-26-2008, 09:08 AM
Wow. That's a whole lot of - wow, just wow.

Anyway, I heard back from Chris Erskine, so he does read his emails. He referenced a rather disturbing example of Crazie crassness that I have not heard before and to which I find no link:

Did the Crazies chant PLO to Steven Kerr?

The only reference I find is from an Arizona-Arizona State game. This seems like another case of the Crazies getting tagged for other students attempted Crazies imitation. I corrected Erskine and invited him to join us for the New Years Eve game against Loyola. Granted the Xmas games aren't full on Crazie but they are affordable and the WaDuke has great rates that week.

As you discovered, the out-of-line Steve Kerr abuse happened at Arizona State.

This is a situation where Duke hate and the internet create misinformation.

But here you can actually PROVE that the story is a lie:

Duke played Arizona in Cameron exactly ONE time, 2 years after Steve Kerr graduated. It, of course, was a great game which Duke won by 2. Lute Olson refused to ever play there again.

Ders24
11-26-2008, 09:10 AM
and... I'll probably get lambasted for this. I have found the "Crazies" over the past year or two to NOT be entitled to the name. Shame.

Granted, my daughter and son-in-law graduated in 2001 -- perhaps the most awesome and exciting 4 years cumulative in Duke history. That said, neither ever missed a game. They camped out in the snow, they stood in the rain. And there was NEVER a time that the student section wasn't full and overfull.

The cheers and signs and events were amazing creative, and still make me smile and laugh. And I truly believe that the success of the team from 1998 through 2001 was partly attriublated (sic) to the SIXTH MAN.

I ache that I am currently 3,000 miles from Cameron. The thought of there being even one seat available for me (...even in the rafters) gives me a shiver.

So.....current students get with it. Yes, all Duke students have major exams and classes...and Law School and Med School and MBAs to address... so get your work done rather than sleeping late, or staying up partying.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but the bottom line for me is that the current crop of student fans do not deserve the title of Cameron Crazies. And it pains me greatly.

I'm pretty sure you've made this comment about 2 or 3 three times, so I really don't see why you need to keep doing so. Just go back and find how MulletMan responded before, as I think it was appropriate and accurate. If you want stories of Crazies over the past 3-4 years camping out in the rain there are many students who would be happy to give you some.

CameronBornAndBred
11-26-2008, 09:10 AM
Lute Olson refused to ever play there again.
Out of curiosity, why? Pat Summit threatened not to play at Cameron again because of the Crazies. Did Lute have the same reason, or did he just not like losing?

Ders24
11-26-2008, 09:12 AM
Many of these posts on the crazies seem destructively negative to me. I especially find it disheartening when someone thinks they can evaluate the crazies from watching TV. What a joke; the crazies most creative stuff happens off screen and off air. The crazies still annoy/harsh/distract the other team through all of warm ups & timeouts.


100% agree with this, which is also why some former parents/students/whoever think that "their time" was the best. They heard these stories before and since they don't anymore they assume it doesn't exist.

willywoody
11-26-2008, 10:03 AM
I don't appreciate having my thread retitled when it was not meant as a complaint thread at all. It was supposed to be a thread to determine ways to build enthusiasm and attendance for the exhibition games and early season games. It actually had some good ideas in it. Whoever did this didn't read the thread or didn't get it at least. Really lame guys.

Jessica5
11-26-2008, 10:19 AM
and... I'll probably get lambasted for this...

Sorry to sound so harsh, but the bottom line for me is that the current crop of student fans do not deserve the title of Cameron Crazies. And it pains me greatly.

Dude, I thought I was on Inside Carolina just now. AWESOME!

Wow. That's cute. Reallllllly cute.

Ask the team if we're still the sixth man. Ask he URI players (more recently). Ask Coach K.

This comment doesn't really need dignified with a response, but I just felt like I should provide all of you that are hating on the current CRAZIES (or are in mourning for "the heyday" when they were in our place... or not, as it were) with the proper references for evaluating our performance.

To the Crazies on this board:
I'll see you guys at the next game. Too bad for a lot of these posters that they won't be able to be there in Cameron to see us in action.

Let the hate continue.

DukieInKansas
11-26-2008, 10:39 AM
As you discovered, the out-of-line Steve Kerr abuse happened at Arizona State.

This is a situation where Duke hate and the internet create misinformation.

But here you can actually PROVE that the story is a lie:

Duke played Arizona in Cameron exactly ONE time, 2 years after Steve Kerr graduated. It, of course, was a great game which Duke won by 2. Lute Olson refused to ever play there again.

Sun Devils/Blue Devils - it was close. :D

weezie
11-26-2008, 10:41 AM
Sheesh, can I get Kumbaya? Didn't all Dukies here get their chance to be crazy in whatever way and era?

Time to end this Maoist exercise in criticism and retaliation. The point of being young and in college is to have the best time you can while making memories. As long as the students are keeping it relatively "clean" and clever, or even just enjoying themselves, it's for the team's benefit, not mine up in the stands. But I do so wish they'd make room for the occasional geezer (like me!) down there. It sure looks like fun....

Lighten up, join hands and eyes on the prize, Detroit in '09.

DukieInKansas
11-26-2008, 10:47 AM
Thank you to all the students that show up at Cameron to cheer on OUR Blue Devils. I don't have the good fortune to be close enough to find a way to attend games now, so I can only judge by what I see on tv (thank you ESPN). It seems like the students show up for the games - it might not be as crowded for Montana as it will be for the tar heels, but that was true back in my day - last of Bill Foster/first of Coach K years. The longest line I was in was 15 hours before Uncle Terry opened the doors early for a tar heel game. I wonder if I would be dedicated enough to do the tenting/check in system that seems to work now for the big games.

Is it possible that MichaelKing's perception of the change in the ratio of male to female now versus than may reflect a change in the ratio of the student body?

I also agree that any deviations on the national anthem are wrong - of course this has been discussed ad naseum and occurs in places other than Cameron.

davekay1971
11-26-2008, 11:29 AM
As you discovered, the out-of-line Steve Kerr abuse happened at Arizona State.

This is a situation where Duke hate and the internet create misinformation.

But here you can actually PROVE that the story is a lie:

Duke played Arizona in Cameron exactly ONE time, 2 years after Steve Kerr graduated. It, of course, was a great game which Duke won by 2. Lute Olson refused to ever play there again.

I remember that game - my freshman year at Duke, and about 2 days before the Carolina game. The Az game was a huge bright spot - I think they were ranked top 5, and we won a great close game. If you were camping out for Carolina, you got the Az game too, which was a good thing because the Carolina game was my worst Cameron memory - hungover from tequila shots, fighting off the post-inebriation GI toxicity (you've all been there, so don't look at me like that), we lost by 20, and my NROTC group had to clean up the stadium after the game. Good times :D

CathyCA
11-26-2008, 12:28 PM
I was one of the old farts upstairs at Sunday's game against Montana. I thought the Crazies did a great job in their role as Sixth Man. The cheers were clever, coordinated, and the band and the cheerleaders provided great entertainment. It was fun being in Cameron on Sunday.

Keep up the good work, guys and gals!

III
11-26-2008, 12:47 PM
Many of these posts on the crazies seem destructively negative to me. I especially find it disheartening when someone thinks they can evaluate the crazies from watching TV. What a joke; the crazies most creative stuff happens off screen and off air. The crazies still annoy/harsh/distract the other team through all of warm ups & timeouts.

I agree that the sentiment is often extremely negative. As someone who takes cheering extremely seriously, the implication that the crazies aren't trying as hard, don't do their research, or don't care are particularly offensive. Some of us have waited since those "glory years" (whenever they may be for the particular complainer) to do this. Further, any complaining about specifics are ridiculous. Every group of people who watch a game will come up with different insults/cheers, and nobody's are measurably "better" than any others.


Being a basketball fan is NOT required to get into Duke! Students don’t have to care at all, and many don’t. Many on this board think that being a rabid sports fan (basketball mostly) should be a requirement. It is not and I would guess that as you move up the high achiever totem pole, that would increase your chance of getting into Duke, you would find fewer and fewer people that care about sports.


There are still a bunch of kids that make basketball there top priority at Duke like my daughter in the front row and all the other kids in the first 25 tents. Many of these kids skip going aboard for a semester so they don’t miss any games. Really think about that, these kids give up the experience of studying overseas to watch the most boring basketball games of the year in person. And like it or not Nov & Dec games do not compare to the in conference games. The upstairs is much different after Jan 1; it is full and much louder upstairs. The most entertaining part of the early games is often the crazies.

This is most likely the largest issue facing the current crop of Cameron Crazies. As Duke's reputation as an academic institution increases (and grad, law, med school prospects improve to elite levels), we're going to be admitted more "top" students. Further, many of these students are going to be more focused on non-sport activities.

ASIDE: (It's a whole different problem that students nowadays are so concerned and competitive that they think they don't have time to pursue fun activities. This is patently false, and most people have a misinformed view of what is required to achieve success (i.e. not working 100 hours a week))

That said, it's unsurprising that the gross number of people interested in Duke Basketball has decreased, and unsurprising that many people interested in Duke Basketball are content to watch on television (heretical as that may be to some of us).

However, what I've observed (especially this year and last) is a spreading of extremes. A small group of students are taking things more seriously than ever (tenting longer, sleeping out longer for games longer, etc.) while an increasing number of people are "just trying to get in", showing up half an hour or less before games, and only when something more pressing isn't stopping them (like an exam, or something).

Of course, the people who actually read this board are mostly in that small, super-serious group. Thus, these attacks are in all likelihood quite unfair to those reading them, and further, the people who do read them don't have a lot of power to change things.

I can assure you that we are always thinking about ways to best deal with this situation and improve Cameron in general. As I keep telling everyone, we need to work together on things. Attacks are bad, criticism is good, suggestions and discussion are best.

Cavlaw
11-26-2008, 01:15 PM
Maybe I'm not following you correctly, but I get the impression that you think Duke being ranked among the most elite institutions in the country is a new trend.

Kfanarmy
11-26-2008, 01:17 PM
...Time to end this Maoist exercise in criticism and retaliation. The point of being young and in college is to have the best time you can while making memories... One of the more bizarre quotes I've seen in a while...

The content of this threat is simply surprising, an awful lot of educated people showing little understanding of their education or others' perspecitves.

Skitzle
11-26-2008, 01:27 PM
Maybe I'm not following you correctly, but I get the impression that you think Duke being ranked among the most elite institutions in the country is a new trend.


It's not a new trend, but the college application and acceptance system definitely has changed. It is more competitive now than it has ever been (as seen by increasing rejection rates/declining acceptance rates will show). You're seeing a new type of student apply to top institutions.

FWIW, I couldn't have cared less about Duke as a basketball program applying and getting accepted to Duke. I was interested in its academics. I spent 4 years at Duke and maybe attended 5-10 games in Cameron. Senior year I got hooked. I now read this board daily. I love Duke basketball. I don't miss a game, but I can understand the argument that is "I don't have time to go to the basketball game. I'll just watch it on TV."

davekay1971
11-26-2008, 01:27 PM
Maybe I'm not following you correctly, but I get the impression that you think Duke being ranked among the most elite institutions in the country is a new trend.

I know when I enrolled, in 1989, Duke was sending recruiters around to high schools begging people to consider the school. They came to my school and told us that if you could sign your name, or at least make a decent "X", you were in. They promised us a minimum of a B average as long as we went to all the basketball games. It was nice to know that I could spend all my time camping out for hoops games without worrying about pesky exams, as long as I was cool with that B average. And, really, who wouldn't be?

Cavlaw
11-26-2008, 01:43 PM
I know when I enrolled, in 1989, Duke was sending recruiters around to high schools begging people to consider the school. They came to my school and told us that if you could sign your name, or at least make a decent "X", you were in. They promised us a minimum of a B average as long as we went to all the basketball games. It was nice to know that I could spend all my time camping out for hoops games without worrying about pesky exams, as long as I was cool with that B average. And, really, who wouldn't be?
I enrolled 9 years later, and by then Duke was well known to top students, though not necessarily a household name academically. IIRC, it has been a top-10 school every year in the US News rankings, and has broken into the top 5 once or twice. FWIW, Duke's acceptance rate this year was apparently 23%.

DukieInKansas
11-26-2008, 01:58 PM
I know when I enrolled, in 1989, Duke was sending recruiters around to high schools begging people to consider the school. They came to my school and told us that if you could sign your name, or at least make a decent "X", you were in. They promised us a minimum of a B average as long as we went to all the basketball games. It was nice to know that I could spend all my time camping out for hoops games without worrying about pesky exams, as long as I was cool with that B average. And, really, who wouldn't be?

I assumed this was sarcasm and got a good chuckle. Shoot, by the year after I started, I was wondering if I would have been accepted with the new class of freshmen.

DukieInKansas
11-26-2008, 02:00 PM
With the proper planning, academics doesn't need to get in the way of basketball. I had a professor that would schedule his exams at night so both sections would take them together. When he first handed out the syllabus, I would pull out the b-ball schedule and get him to change any exams that conflicted. I did have priorities and it wasn't probabilities or statistics exams. :D

throatybeard
11-26-2008, 06:59 PM
Many of these posts on the crazies seem destructively negative to me.

Let's bring this to the moderation team's attention then.


There are still a bunch of kids that make basketball there top priority at Duke like my daughter in the front row and all the other kids in the first 25 tents. Many of these kids skip going aboard for a semester so they don’t miss any games. Really think about that, these kids give up the experience of studying overseas to watch the most boring basketball games of the year in person. And like it or not Nov & Dec games do not compare to the in conference games. The upstairs is much different after Jan 1; it is full and much louder upstairs. The most entertaining part of the early games is often the crazies.

This is a fantastic point, rarely mentioned in these incessant threads bashing the current students. More students go abroad in fall than spring, and basketball season is a big factor in that. Rarely does anyone mention the missing [usually] juniors when assessing early season attendance.

I decided to forgo semester abroad because I'd miss some fall basketball games in 1996-97. I now regard this as a terrible mistake. Instead of a semester in Greece learning about another culture I...what did I do? Let's see, I saw Tractor Traylor light us up. I saw the debut of the black unis. The rest is a blur of East Pickpickin State and UNC-Somewhere. Whee.

Cavlaw
11-26-2008, 07:13 PM
Let's bring this to the moderation team's attention then.



This is a fantastic point, rarely mentioned in these incessant threads bashing the current students. More students go abroad in fall than spring, and basketball season is a big factor in that. Rarely does anyone mention the missing [usually] juniors when assessing early season attendance.

I decided to forgo semester abroad because I'd miss some fall basketball games in 1996-97. I now regard this as a terrible mistake. Instead of a semester in Greece learning about another culture I...what did I do? Let's see, I saw Tractor Traylor light us up. I saw the debut of the black unis. The rest is a blur of East Pickpickin State and UNC-Somewhere. Whee.
I, too, regret not spending a semester abroad. Fortunately, I made up for it in law school. :)

Ders24
11-26-2008, 07:49 PM
I went abroad over the summer so I still got to experience another culture (even if to a lesser degree) and didn't miss any basketball :)

SushiChef
11-26-2008, 09:52 PM
I agree that the attendance has been lacking in the preseason. But it's way too early to start getting worked up about this. Also, as long as the crazies are getting criticized for not attending games like Lenoir Rhine, Presbyterian or Montana, it should be mentioned that the fans in the upper bowl are guilty of leaving these games early. In my opinion that is more disrespectful than not showing up at all. What, you can't stand to wait an extra 10 minutes in traffic? How do you think it makes the team feel to see a mass flux of people leaving before Jordan Davidson or Steve Johnson even make it in the game?

I'd also like to add that the Rhode Island game was the loudest I've ever heard the crazies get in a preseason game. That game was reminiscent of an ACC match. I've been to every game so far this season and I have to say, that this is the best I've seen Cameron since the days of JJ and Sheldon, despite the attendance problem.

weezie
11-26-2008, 10:49 PM
One of the more bizarre quotes I've seen in a while...

The content of this threat is simply surprising, an awful lot of educated people showing little understanding of their education or others' perspecitves.



:confused: Eh, threats?
I so don't understand my education. What was that degree thing all about anyway.

DukeDevilDeb
11-27-2008, 11:08 PM
Ah, but many of ours did and many of us did. That's the disconnect.

I moved to Duke and Durham 22 years ago, and I saw my first Duke basketball game that October. Since that time, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many games I've missed (and two of them were when my parents died). Part of my pleasure in attending games for most of those years was watching the students crammed into their section, cheering for the team and truly playing the 6th man. There was an aura about Cameron that was unique, and I loved every minute.

Several years ago, that aura began to dim. I don't know why... I can't explain it. But the students I teach now are apathetic about lots of things, with basketball being perhaps the most obvious. Not all feel that way, of course... but the number of real "fans" seems to be way down.

I don't count on the students to entertain me. But I love it when Cameron is rocking, when it is so loud at a game that I can't hear for hours afterward, when my hands are sore from clapping and my voice is gone. Both students and other fans have the right to decide whether or not they want to go to the games, and I have defended them mightily against all kinds of criticism. In this new era, however, the empty seats in the student section create a negative feeling that spreads throughout the stadium.

And would someone please explain to me why the students cheer more loudly for the Crazy Towel Guy than for anything that the team does?

I would advocate the suggestion that, if the students did fill their section 10-15 minutes before tipoff, others should be allowed to sit there. I think many grad students would LOVE that opportunity, as would many of the local fans who never get a chance to see Cameron. Let's get Duke fans to fill Cameron... both upstairs (yes, you too leave many emtpy seats) and downstairs.

Go Duke!

TaiAdmiral
11-28-2008, 11:17 AM
Look, as a current student I've never experienced these "Better Days" that the grizzled veterans speak of. For me, these "days" are pretty damn good. I've gone to almost every game including URI, and I really don't know what the heck you guys are talking about with "lack of enthusiasm".

And now for something completely relevant:
We just finished filming a commercial in Cameron for Coke Zero, not sure if you guys heard. It's supposed to be a celebration of, for, and by the fans of college basketball. Basically, they're focusing on something we do a ton of in the student section: jumping. And that's gonna be the title of the commercial. We had to try out for spots...around 200 kids tried out and 75 got called back. It was a lot of fun, and be sure to check it out in March during March Madness.

AtlDuke72
11-28-2008, 07:21 PM
Look, as a current student I've never experienced these "Better Days" that the grizzled veterans speak of. For me, these "days" are pretty damn good. I've gone to almost every game including URI, and I really don't know what the heck you guys are talking about with "lack of enthusiasm".

And now for something completely relevant:
We just finished filming a commercial in Cameron for Coke Zero, not sure if you guys heard. It's supposed to be a celebration of, for, and by the fans of college basketball. Basically, they're focusing on something we do a ton of in the student section: jumping. And that's gonna be the title of the commercial. We had to try out for spots...around 200 kids tried out and 75 got called back. It was a lot of fun, and be sure to check it out in March during March Madness.

Great post Tai Admiral! You will learn as you get older, however, that everything was better in the gool old days - it always was and always will be! Before long you will also be telling your children how you had to walk to school in the snow.

Indoor66
11-28-2008, 07:57 PM
Great post Tai Admiral! You will learn as you get older, however, that everything was better in the gool old days - it always was and always will be! Before long you will also be telling your children how you had to walk to school in the snow.

...uphill both ways....

DukieInKansas
11-28-2008, 08:53 PM
...uphill both ways....

Carrying your little brother/sister on your back. :D

dukebluelemur
03-03-2009, 03:36 AM
I think the points are well taken, but it comes across to me as though DBR thinks the students should do more. While that may be true to an extent, I think the piece underemphasizes the extent to which the administration and K himself have limited the ability of the students to be what they once were.

-There is no more sitting behind the opposing team (BOG)
-K is really against anything negative about opposing team members, which was a lot of the funniest stuff. During my years I remember more than one time we were told some one or some event was off limits.
-Speedo guy was great. Period. But it doesn't help future creativity that K came out against it afterwards.
-Security is a lot higher... I can realistically see arrests if the mentioned clown stunt was tried today.
-And students are a lot more limited as to props I believe. I suspect my 30 foot long sign that got confiscated in 2003 would not have been a decade or two earlier. (Not that I would want crazies to sink to that level, but there is no way most of the Maryland type signs would be allowed in Cameron.)

What has been lost, from what I can tell, is that edge. And to a large extent, I blame K himself. While I understand his desire for the crazies to be supporting Duke, rather than attacking the other side, that is precisely what made Duke such a scary place to play. We can be deafening in support of our team, ear-shattering even, but that's not what makes teams afraid to play in our house. I think the students have had, and still have, the sharp wit of the earlier generations, but the powers that be have been pushing them away from it.

There have even been times when K himself has directed the crazies towards a specific style. I still shudder when I hear the term 'the Fist'... that was a disaster.

So while I think we can agree that creativity and stunts should be encouraged, I don't think that what is lacking is entirely the fault of the crazies.

fisheyes
03-03-2009, 07:40 AM
So while I think we can agree that creativity and stunts should be encouraged, I don't think that what is lacking is entirely the fault of the crazies.

While I'm not down at Duke and can only make comments based on what I see on TV, I can see how the Univeristy could create some unintented consequences.

A similar issue arose back in the late 70s when the University forced a change in the DUMB. In the early 70s the DUMB was a crazy scatter type band similar to Stanford's band. There was always a ton of energy, spontaneity, and spirit. The band was amongst the most vocal fans in the arena; both on the football field and in CIS. The administration (driven by the Iron Dukes I believe) decided that they wanted a more traditional band (straight lines...hah!, real uniforms, and typical show...boring). That change seemed to suck some of the life out of the band and along with it some of the spirit. We did, however, keep up the spirit and rowdiness at CIS. Has some of that been lost? The TV cameras rarely show the band and when they do, they seem to be rather sedate. Am I wrong?

I agree with the DBR writers that the spontaneity was the best part of being a fan. Don't think too hard...just do it! Have fun...get rowdy and intimidate!

GO DUKE! BEAT FSU!!

Sixthman
03-03-2009, 07:45 AM
Somewhere along the line, the student crowd in Cameron, became part of the act instead of part of the game. The students that earned the name Crazies WERE THERE TO INFLUENCE THE OUTCOME OF THE GAME. For some time now -- and long before the current study body applied to Duke -- the students have come, instead, to hit their marks. The current students could not imagine that in the past, the crowd was louder during the timeouts than during the games, and often ignored clap, clap, cheers conducted by the cheerleaders so they could scream so loud the visitors could not hear themselves think. I've been to games where the only time the screaming stopped was at half time or when Duke was shooting free throws. Two decades ago, if the Blue Devil had tried to lead the wave, the students would have at best ignored him and at worst, flipped him off. Of course, it is the Blue Devil's job to be entertaining. For the crowds of old, the one's Coach K has called to return, it was not the crowd's job to entertain (indeed, they were remarkable for their focused intention to simply help the team win). Make it loud, make it loud, make it loud. And, make it fun. And oh by the way, as one of the fans upstairs in Cameron, students should know a couple of things. The upstairs crowd is no where near as good as it should be -- but is, if anything, significantly better than the old days. A Cameron in which the upstairs crowd pulled its weight would be great, but it would be a new Cameron.

MonitorMom
03-03-2009, 08:29 AM
Just a few points to consider about how times have changed. Although the past sounds wonderful, times have changed. We have 24 hour news cycles and a million channels on TV. We have cell phone cameras and recorders. Think about these facts that we all pretty much agree on

1. We all love the reputation that Duke and its students and team are just one step classier than the average fare.

2. Coach K, repeatedly and constantly, warns the students and players that they should do nothing to embarrass the school.

3. The technology and media today allow for a million ways for a well intentioned antic to be misconstrued and turned into a public relations nightmare for the students and Duke University.

4. The world at large would love to see that happen.

5. These are the kids that lived through the Lacrosse fiasco. It has been drilled into their heads by parents, school administrators, etc that even seemingly innocent actions can get you into deep, deep trouble that you never even imagined.

Give these kids a break. You would not believe how many hours are spent on those cheer sheets. They struggle sometimes with whether a certain tidbit crosses the line. Has Cameron changed? Have the Crazies changed? You bet. I don't think they had a choice.

blueprofessor
03-03-2009, 08:32 AM
Dear Duke Fans:

As we begin the last week of the regular season, I wanted to take this opportunity to, first off, thank you for your great support of our program and for being part of a great year in Cameron Indoor Stadium. It means so much to our players to have your collective strength behind them when we play in “our house”. We need your passion and you’ve brought it.

Tomorrow night at 8 pm against Florida State, though, we need it even louder, even more passionate, even more Duke Blue, and even hungrier, as we pursue our 11th win of the ACC season. And just as importantly, it’s a special night for our three seniors (David McClure, Greg Paulus and Marty Pocius) who have represented the program so well during their time at Duke. We need to honor them with our best game of the year in Cameron – our loudest and our most passionate.

I think we can do it – if we are all together and unified in our commitment. Two hours of complete Cameron chaos, fans standing at their seats, and every seat full - should be our lasting memory of the 2008-09 home season. I hope you’ll join us and be a part of this special night. I can’t wait to be in that moment with you!

The pregame Senior Night ceremonies will start around 7:45 pm and tipoff is at 8 pm.

Go Duke!:)

Coach K

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

blueprofessor
03-03-2009, 10:03 AM
Just a few points to consider about how times have changed. Although the past sounds wonderful, times have changed. We have 24 hour news cycles and a million channels on TV. We have cell phone cameras and recorders. Think about these facts that we all pretty much agree on

1. We all love the reputation that Duke and its students and team are just one step classier than the average fare.

2. Coach K, repeatedly and constantly, warns the students and players that they should do nothing to embarrass the school.

3. The technology and media today allow for a million ways for a well intentioned antic to be misconstrued and turned into a public relations nightmare for the students and Duke University.

4. The world at large would love to see that happen.

5. These are the kids that lived through the Lacrosse fiasco. It has been drilled into their heads by parents, school administrators, etc that even seemingly innocent actions can get you into deep, deep trouble that you never even imagined.

Give these kids a break. You would not believe how many hours are spent on those cheer sheets. They struggle sometimes with whether a certain tidbit crosses the line. Has Cameron changed? Have the Crazies changed? You bet. I don't think they had a choice.

That means continuous NOISE during the game and the timeouts! With noise, Cameron will not have changed so much.

Please urge the non-student fans to be loud ,as well.The Crazies' noise will motivate other Duke fans.

Our team has played a lot of games in a short period...think about how you can motivate them through the game's fatigue and exasperations.
CONTINUOUS, LOUD NOISE! It worked vs. Michigan in 1992 and vrs. UNC in 1998----as that enthusiasm led the upper deck to join in the frenzied support for Duke.
Remember,perfection is the enemy of the very good! Back to basics----Get and stay LOUD!

Best regards---Blueprof :D

jjasper0729
03-03-2009, 10:29 AM
I'm going to agree with sixthman... the students come to "hit their mark" because it's what they are "supposed to do" as part of the "crazies". I think the students need to forget that they're the "Crazies" and just be loud and come up with things on the fly. I understand things being off limits (Loren Woods, Juan Dixon), but there are plenty of other things opposing players do that aren't off limits.

There was the thread for new things to do for the UNC game. While the game itself was incredibly loud in the first half, the intensity did fall off in the second. That shouldn't happen tonight. Also, as far as the signage (I remember the 30 foot sign, i think.. was that the one that said "Which is bigger, this sign or mccant's ego?"?) I don't know if they are confiscated at the door if they are too big or not. Not to harp on the line monitors, but the cheer sheets need to go and students need to come up with the ideas on their own or as part of smaller groups so that it's not so coordinated.

I don't know what more to say without just sitting and thinking about it. When I was a student, it was still spontaneous (shoes were thrown on the court for Bob Sura I believe for one FSU game).

I do believe that what Mr. Brill said in the N&O article about tv changing it is true (echoed by SixthMan about hitting the marks). the students should come as if there is no tv there. you should NEVER hear the cheerleaders and BARELY hear the band when they play.

Might have more later as I ponder

CDu
03-03-2009, 10:45 AM
There was the thread for new things to do for the UNC game. While the game itself was incredibly loud in the first half, the intensity did fall off in the second. That shouldn't happen tonight. Also, as far as the signage (I remember the 30 foot sign, i think.. was that the one that said "Which is bigger, this sign or mccant's ego?"?) I don't know if they are confiscated at the door if they are too big or not. Not to harp on the line monitors, but the cheer sheets need to go and students need to come up with the ideas on their own or as part of smaller groups so that it's not so coordinated.

Things are always going to be better in the olden days. The reality is that the Crazies have long since morphed into what they are today. It was that way back in the late 90s even. I'm sure the 80s Crazies would say that the early-90s Crazies were tame. And I'm sure the 70s Crazies would say the same about the 80s Crazies, and so on. Some of it may be legitimate, some of it may be fabricated or exaggerated with the passing of time.


I don't know what more to say without just sitting and thinking about it. When I was a student, it was still spontaneous (shoes were thrown on the court for Bob Sura I believe for one FSU game).

I'm guessing that such a thing wouldn't fly in this day and age. We complain about Maryland fans throwing bottles. But throwing shoes? I realize that this is just an example of old creativity, but still.

I agree that the Crazies have long since become too packaged and formulaic. But that's what comes with trying to live up to a reputation while living in a different era. The system has changed, the rules aren't the same, and it's unlikely to expect the same level of creativity given the increased restrictions. What I do agree that we should expect, though, is more volume and more intensity, less pandering to the cameras, less wearing goofy outfits to look crazy and get on TV. Put the focus back on the team rather than on the reputation.

FireOgilvie
03-03-2009, 10:48 AM
I think a big part of the problem is that every game is on TV, thus a huge number of people that would go to the game just watch it on TV instead. It really waters down the crowd I think. A lot of people probably wonder why they should wait for 4 hours to go to a game when they can just watch it at home in HD. That's just the way it is. Also, I have heard from some alums that the type of students that attend Duke today are very different from say, the '80's, primarily due to increasing admission standards and other factors.

Highlander
03-03-2009, 10:52 AM
Have the Crazies Lost their Touch? (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/college_hoops/story/572630.html) This had a graphic on the front page as well. Pretty much mirrors what has been said here.

Also, an article on the senior class, including Pocius. (http://aboverim.blogspot.com/2009/03/duke-seniors-still-have-big-goals.html)

blueprofessor
03-03-2009, 10:52 AM
I'm going to agree with sixthman... the students come to "hit their mark" because it's what they are "supposed to do" as part of the "crazies". I think the students need to forget that they're the "Crazies" and just be loud and come up with things on the fly.

There was the thread for new things to do for the UNC game. While the game itself was incredibly loud in the first half, the intensity did fall off in the second. That shouldn't happen tonight.

I don't know what more to say without just sitting and thinking about it. When I was a student, it was still spontaneous (shoes were thrown on the court for Bob Sura I believe for one FSU game).

I do believe that what Mr. Brill said in the N&O article about tv changing it is true (echoed by SixthMan about hitting the marks). the students should come as if there is no tv there. you should NEVER hear the cheerleaders and BARELY hear the band when they play.


Bobby had a hard time making class and taking his books.
I spoke with him later on the team plane...he loved it.He also lit us up for 29 that game and 35 a year later.As he came to the bench in the 35 point game, he commented,"Nobody can stop me."
In the very first game vs. FSU in ACC play,January 6,1992, the Blue Devil wore a taped message on his forehead:" FSU: Hooked on Phonics.":D

It will be a tough,physical game tonight.
Go,Duke!

Best---Blueprofessor:)

jjasper0729
03-03-2009, 10:54 AM
that's a fair statement. I would say that things started to "turn" about '94 or so when the dean of admissions changed. I remember talking to someone then about it because it was noticable all of a sudden.

with regard to the throwing books (they threw shoes on the court for someone too... it's been a while.. can't remember).. they didn't throw them AT sura, but onto the court during introductions from behind press row. THAT was a good atmosphere (Thanks for the correction blueprofessor)

they have had good moments.. "please don't eat me" and the little debbie boxes for Nigel Dixon... the signage and jumpsuits for mccants... those are always good for one year but it seems that for some things (the beaker thing for Hansbrough) it's old news and not very fresh.

weezie
03-03-2009, 10:55 AM
Some of the oldsters up in the seats try to make some noise but it's largely a bunch of tunas sitting up there.
As if we're supposed to be entertained by the whole performance on the floor and bleachers.
Come on fellow geezers! Get off your duffs and join in because I'm not sitting down, whether you all like it or not!:cool:

blueprofessor
03-03-2009, 11:05 AM
Things are always going to be better in the olden days. The reality is that the Crazies have long since morphed into what they are today. It was that way back in the late 90s even. I'm sure the 80s Crazies would say that the early-90s Crazies were tame. And I'm sure the 70s Crazies would say the same about the 80s Crazies, and so on. Some of it may be legitimate, some of it may be fabricated or exaggerated with the passing of time.



I'm guessing that such a thing wouldn't fly in this day and age. We complain about Maryland fans throwing bottles. But throwing shoes?

and Sura loved the attention.:DThere was no danger to anyone as the dumping occurred during player intros and Sura was 20 or more feet away.The books were not thrown.
There were many games in the '90s(including Michigan in 1992 and UNC in 1998, MD in 1999) that I attended that were the loudest I ever heard Cameron.I started going as a student in the 1960s and have seen 2 games this year in person.
At least for me,it is most certainly not a matter of the older memories(the '60s) being better from the perspective of crowd noise,although all the UNC games were very loud.:)

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

blueprofessor
03-03-2009, 11:12 AM
Some of the oldsters up in the seats try to make some noise but it's largely a bunch of tunas sitting up there.
As if we're supposed to be entertained by the whole performance on the floor and bleachers.
Come on fellow geezers! Get off your duffs and join in because I'm not sitting down, whether you all like it or not!:cool:


..and has difficulty standing and walking.He is a 55 year Duke prof who is 80.:)
But I admire your spirit and hope you can motivate the upper deckers!


Best regards--Blueprof:)

Duvall
03-03-2009, 11:23 AM
There's also the problem of Grant Hill no longer being available to serve beer.

Hopefully the students will fill the stands and cheer for Duke without doing anything too offensive. Beyond that, who cares what they do or wear?

Indoor66
03-03-2009, 11:42 AM
There's also the problem of Grant Hill no longer being available to serve beer.

Hopefully the students will fill the stands and cheer for Duke without doing anything too offensive. Beyond that, who cares what they do or wear?

I believe you are thinking of Bill Werber, may he rest in peace.

watzone
03-03-2009, 11:44 AM
First off, good comments all. I'm one of those guys who has seen the great majority of games in Cameron since the 67 season. Of course, I was really, really young when it started.

It would take hours and hours to respond to every point. That said, here are some basic comments -

It's true that the Crazies aren't what they used to be. I'm not talking the 60's, 70's or all of 80's here. I'm talking from about the time K started winning around 85. The crowds from 86 to about 95 were fabulous, but then they started to go downhill.

The student themselves shouldn't get the blame. The reason being a changing culture. Also, current students can only go by what the ones before them have set into place. I feel that the crazies today are doing the best they can.

Anyone who has been to games during that era can tell you that when the BOG'ers were dismantled, it was a precursor to a more tame Cameron. They were the last of the truly crazy crazies. It's one thing to dress the game, but to make sure you are heard and with the intent to disrupt has indeed gave way to scripts.

Scripts are necessary at this time, so no problem with cheer sheets here.

The biggest culprit is the waning interest of the students of today. Surely, there are numbers to back this up as they enter the turnstiles.

Not too long ago, there were students in all four sections of Cameron. At some point and time, it was cut to about 1 3/4 sections. The entire Duke side (or bench side) has no students save small sections of the corners. One can only imagine what it was like when the other 2 1/4 sections was full of screaming students. There is no free throw contention from fans at one end, save the band.

And while we are on the band, they still do a good job and the corwd up top? It's still a mixed bag where most are sedate. It does help when players and coached attempt to exhort that part of Cameron.

Yes Cameron has changed and it is in no way intimidating to opposing teams who now play in arenas just as loud if not louder. But the blame can be passed out to many and the times we live in are in the mix as well. And yes, Duke fans are spoiled from continuous twenty win seasons as if they are guaranteed.

I have been on the road near the team a few times this season and I can tell you that those other than the students are generally consistently louder, but that it's always the students which set the tone. That's why Cameron should never expand, for there just aren't enough students to fill the seats anymore.

This discussion? It could go on forever. In fact, I have said maybe a tenth of what I wanted to. With the season in hand, it's hard to take the time out to respond in a way this subject deserves.

But remember this - as Duke fans we are all in this together.

CallUsPaulus
03-03-2009, 11:49 AM
Bottom line, the Crazies have been limited by this notion of "class." There's a real dearth of creativity in comparison to places like Maryland. It's not that we're not clever enough to have some original stuff, it's that there's a culture of limits. Say what you want about Maryland fans, and believe me, I have, but they're a lot more original and fun than the Crazies right now. Some thoughts:

1) Why can't we ever charge the court? The reason I hear most often is that we're supposed to be on a different level, and 'act like we've been there before.' Screw that, charging the court is fun. Obviously it would be overkill to do it every game, but if we get a big win against UNC, why not?

2) Coach K should have no influence on the conduct of the Crazies. He's the coach of the basketball team, not the coach of the student body. It's not his fault if they misbehave. It's not his job to police them. End of story.

3) We need to be more wild. Set us loose. Let individuals with awesome concepts like Speedo guy go nuts. If an idea sucks, the fans will take care of it.

4) There's a place for negativity. Again, I trust our fans to know the line. But it's also their job to create an intimidating atmosphere. Mockery is a part of that. And really, it's pretty hypocritical to draw an arbitrary line about what's "negative." Isn't being loud and cheering for your team 'negative' toward the opposition? Should they stop cheering when the other team misses, like in golf? No more hostile shouts when Henderson stuffs a shot? Come on.


All we have going for us now is noise. Players are used to that; it's not that big a deal anymore. Something like Scheyerface, that's the direction we need to go.

MulletMan
03-03-2009, 11:51 AM
Geez. I can't believe that we revisit this topic all the time. The OP hit it on the head... K and the administration have taken away the edge from the Crazies. It has nothing to do with the students and whether or not they want to be on TV. It has little to do with how much better it was when I was a Crazy. It has nothing to do with Cheer Sheets, which, for the record, are so rarely used that one might consider them a waste of paper. OK... it has a little to do with lack of creativity. But in reality it has to do with basically being told what not to do all the time.

The 30 foot sign referenced above... do you know what that said? IIRC it said, "If you can't go to college, go to state." The Viking Guy and I held that up for about 3 minutes before Cameron staff came over and told us that it was offesive.

You all know now that signs aren't allowed in Cameron, right?

You know that in the Miami game the undergrads started a "Let's get hungry" chant to urge the team on, and yet they were later told that the team was plenty hungry and they shouldn't do that chant, right?

Speedo Guy was too offensive. Talking about Lawson's arrest was too offensive because he wasn't charged. I can't even imagine what might happen if condoms or shoes or books were thrown on the floor now. What's left to do? Seriously. What's left other than to get loud and support our guys?

The Crazies were loud for UNC, Wake, Miami, etc. They will be out in force tonight. Y'all should just take a step back and realize that the kids do what they can under the watchful eye of the university, and, frankly, the nation.

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-03-2009, 12:04 PM
Geez. I can't believe that we revisit this topic all the time. The OP hit it on the head... K and the administration have taken away the edge from the Crazies. It has nothing to do with the students and whether or not they want to be on TV. It has little to do with how much better it was when I was a Crazy. It has nothing to do with Cheer Sheets, which, for the record, are so rarely used that one might consider them a waste of paper. OK... it has a little to do with lack of creativity. But in reality it has to do with basically being told what not to do all the time.

The 30 foot sign referenced above... do you know what that said? IIRC it said, "If you can't go to college, go to state." The Viking Guy and I held that up for about 3 minutes before Cameron staff came over and told us that it was offesive.

You all know now that signs aren't allowed in Cameron, right?

You know that in the Miami game the undergrads started a "Let's get hungry" chant to urge the team on, and yet they were later told that the team was plenty hungry and they shouldn't do that chant, right?

Speedo Guy was too offensive. Talking about Lawson's arrest was too offensive because he wasn't charged. I can't even imagine what might happen if condoms or shoes or books were thrown on the floor now. What's left to do? Seriously. What's left other than to get loud and support our guys?

The Crazies were loud for UNC, Wake, Miami, etc. They will be out in force tonight. Y'all should just take a step back and realize that the kids do what they can under the watchful eye of the university, and, frankly, the nation.
Thank you, MulletMan! Of all the comments posted in this thread, this sentence says best the essence of what fans contribute. Tonight is about the team and what we can do to honor the seniors and support the team as they play Florida State.

Rudy
03-03-2009, 12:05 PM
There is a taste of "The older I get the better I was" to this topic. Coach K, because of his background, may have a more conservative taste in fandom than many fans. If you find this regrettable, take the bad with the good. I rather like the more tasteful approach. Much better than Maryland fans. It's no secret that most Duke students, and therefore the Crazies, are rules followers by and large. But it wouldn't hurt to push the envelope a bit, stretch a little beyond what Coach K would like.

There are many students on the t.v. side who just don't paint themselves. They cheer pretty hard too. I heard on good authority that a group behind the scorers table earned a "Go F*** yourselves" from Greg Monroe when he walked by during the handshaking ritual following the Georgetown game.

Devilsfan
03-03-2009, 12:08 PM
Coach K should have a say. He is the reason we are so proud of the product we put on the court and we should not lose sight of that fact. But I believe the Crazies of old were better. This PC age is over the top. That said I love our Crazies, I love our best damn coach in the land and almost everything DUKE. Go Devils!

davekay1971
03-03-2009, 12:34 PM
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/college_hoops/story/572630.html

This was on the front page of the Charlotte Observer sports section today. This paper is a well known and notorious Tarheel rag, but I would say our students have been called out. They even quoted impartial Cameron observer Bobby Frazor on his views of the students. He specifically pointed out the Beaker comparison as being stale. Now, I don't know if the Crazies managed to give Vanilla T a sampling of his own freestyle rap or asked Bobby to drain a 3 "like he's in the shower", but, if they didn't Frazor probably has a point that they're just not on their game these days.

That being said, even though (shockingly) the Cameron student section had exposed bleacher during the Wake game, being there I thought the students were as loud and witty as we had been when I was an undergrad (89-93).

There is only one way to silence these critics. Amp up the volume, and return to our obnoxious, yet humorously creative ways!

jjasper0729
03-03-2009, 12:49 PM
Mulletman does have a good point. it's become very PC-ified (i know that's not a word). We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Some things should be off limits (I mentioned some of those before) but if an opposing team's player does something stupid himself when he has a chance not to do it and therefore not suffer the ridicule, then he's subject to the ridicule.

I did not know that signs are banned in CIS. That is sad. Seems to me they need to take the handcuffs off and perhaps let the students police themselves to a degree.

Jumbo
03-03-2009, 12:50 PM
Geez. I can't believe that we revisit this topic all the time. The OP hit it on the head... K and the administration have taken away the edge from the Crazies. It has nothing to do with the students and whether or not they want to be on TV. It has little to do with how much better it was when I was a Crazy. It has nothing to do with Cheer Sheets, which, for the record, are so rarely used that one might consider them a waste of paper. OK... it has a little to do with lack of creativity. But in reality it has to do with basically being told what not to do all the time.

The 30 foot sign referenced above... do you know what that said? IIRC it said, "If you can't go to college, go to state." The Viking Guy and I held that up for about 3 minutes before Cameron staff came over and told us that it was offesive.

You all know now that signs aren't allowed in Cameron, right?

You know that in the Miami game the undergrads started a "Let's get hungry" chant to urge the team on, and yet they were later told that the team was plenty hungry and they shouldn't do that chant, right?

Speedo Guy was too offensive. Talking about Lawson's arrest was too offensive because he wasn't charged. I can't even imagine what might happen if condoms or shoes or books were thrown on the floor now. What's left to do? Seriously. What's left other than to get loud and support our guys?

The Crazies were loud for UNC, Wake, Miami, etc. They will be out in force tonight. Y'all should just take a step back and realize that the kids do what they can under the watchful eye of the university, and, frankly, the nation.

My Mulleted friend is largely right, of course. That said (and I'm about to violate about nine of Throaty's rules), here are a few thoughts:

-It's college. Challenging the administration isn't always a bad thing. It just can't be done in a Maryland-ish way (the poster who compared the fun the Maryland crowd has got it all wrong). If you can get Beaker in the stands, you can do other stuff. The fact that there are supposed parameters limiting what students can/can't do just makes creativity even MORE important. And sometimes, if you have to sneak a giant, paper marijuana leaf in ... you find a way.

-Half the battle is knowing what is going on during the game. And there unfortunately some Crazies who just don't understand basketball and seem to be there to dress up and do something social. Even the guy who is quoted on dukeblueplanet today seems to have only become a basketball fan since going to Duke. I don't really know how to fix that, or whether it should matter. Clearly, Duke shouldn't be "recruiting" basketball fans. But it seems some students now are more and more worried about studying, some aren't as well-rounded in their interests, and thus Cameron lacks a lot of the intuition that defined other years.

-Basically, my unsolicited advice is this: If you're a basketball fan, and you're going to Cameron regularly, figure out ways to push the limits. Be clever, yet classy. Come up with something new each game. If you end up on double-secret probation after tonight, isn't it worth it? As long as you don't come close to approaching Maryland's level, you might get a slap on the wrist from Coach K, but you'll earn props from everyone here, everyone who came before you and (probably) the team, too.

-If you're in Cameron, but you're not really a basketball fan, ask people questions. Study. And let loose.

-And if you are so academically oriented that you can't find a way to be a screaming lunatic for a couple of hours a week while in college ... you need to change your priorities in life. Seriously.

davekay1971
03-03-2009, 12:51 PM
There is some relevance here, as well, to a difference in the makeup of the Duke student body. Duke made a conscious effort in the early 1990s to get away from an image as a party school. Admissions became more competitive, students became more academically focused, parties on campus were significantly limited in terms of when they could happen, where they could happen, and how easy it was for underage people (ie, most of the student body) to get in and get served. Most of us who graduated from Duke 15 or more years ago would probably not recognize student life at Duke today. Basketball games at Cameron are a part of that student life, and many students may simply not prioritize Cameron the way they once did.

Indoor66
03-03-2009, 12:53 PM
-And if you are so academically oriented that you can't find a way to be a screaming lunatic for a couple of hours a week while in college ... you need to change your priorities in life. Seriously.

Agreed. You may be way too old, way too early.

blueprofessor
03-03-2009, 12:56 PM
Talking about Lawson's arrest was too offensive because he wasn't charged. I can't even imagine what might happen if condoms or shoes or books were thrown on the floor now. What's left to do? Seriously. What's left other than to get loud and support our guys?

The Crazies were loud for UNC, Wake, Miami, etc. They will be out in force tonight. Y'all should just take a step back and realize that the kids do what they can under the watchful eye of the university, and, frankly, the nation.

...alcohol under 21.Lawson pleaded guilty,while charges of violating Chapel Hill's noise ordinance and driving with a revoked license (he had failed to appear in court for one of his earlier violations) were dropped as part of a plea bargain.

According to Duke law Professor Robbie Everett, the criminal charge of driving after consuming alcohol under 21 is serious ---it carries maximum penalties of 60 days in jail,a $1,000 fine, and loss of license for 1 year.

Doubtless, as memorialized in this thread,regulation and scrutiny have limited some of the crazies' hijinks.

As stated above,what is left is to get loud!

Nothing prevents the fans from being loud...continuously loud.

Since many of us cannot understand the cheers anyway,what does excite and lead to cheering is for the crazies to be as loud as possible.

I remember the 1992 Michigan game.The lower stands were packed 45 minutes before the game.I stuffed cotton in my and my Duke daughter's ears. We could only communicate by yelling in each other's ears.That was loud and it inspired our team.

That is what I mean by a noise frenzy.

Bring it tonight ,crazies! You will lead the rest of the fans and our seniors will know your noise is honoring them!:)

After all,we are not the wine and cheese crowd of Sam Cassell's description (Sam commented after the game that he had never been to a party with a wine and cheese crowd, but that it would have been as quiet as the DingDome).

Best regards---Blue "it is no crime to be loud as hell tonight" Professor:D

jjasper0729
03-03-2009, 01:07 PM
-Half the battle is knowing what is going on during the game. And there unfortunately some Crazies who just don't understand basketball and seem to be there to dress up and do something social. Even the guy who is quoted on dukeblueplanet today seems to have only become a basketball fan since going to Duke. I don't really know how to fix that, or whether it should matter. Clearly, Duke shouldn't be "recruiting" basketball fans. But it seems some students now are more and more worried about studying, some aren't as well-rounded in their interests, and thus Cameron lacks a lot of the intuition that defined other years.

I think this gets to the heart of it. The follow up poster also mentions it similarly. Now-adays, we as a society are telling our elementary school kids (i've seen this in my kid's elementary school) that they need to have a plan for their educational careers. Coming to CIS should be to enjoy the game and be the sixth man, involved, knowledgable, not a social event (as the great Jumbo described it). These are bright kids so if they don't know the rules of the game or know about basketball, youtube the games and get an idea.

Not that I want to push this into PPB territory, but the students now have grown up as part of the culture to be singularly focused on how to advance a career not how to just have a good time. Their lives are laid out according to a 5-10 year plan.

davekay1971
03-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Agreed. You may be way too old, way too early.

Shammrog is on Facebook, being inappropriate :D

Indoor66
03-03-2009, 01:41 PM
Shammrog is on Facebook, being inappropriate :D

Probably. :o

mehmattski
03-03-2009, 02:07 PM
As someone in his seventh year of attending games in the student (first undergrad, now graduate) section, I feel that I must respond to the criticism. I do not know how Crazies of yesteryear behaved, but I feel that within my own era, Cameron has been a crazy place full of creativity and high decibels. Much of that creativity is reserved for the Carolina game, and rightfully so given the amount of personal sacrifice the students have to make for the privilege to attend that game. Sean May Fishing, You're Not in Kansas Anymore, Speedo Guy, and this year's frequent use of Beaker were all classic Cameron Crazy stunts. Maryland games have also seen creativity-- dressing up in graduation gowns in 2008 and the blowing of bubbles in 2004 were both creative without being offensive. If I wanted to make this post much longer I could also list numerous creative cheers from pregame and during the game (such as chanting "Golem" at one of Butler's players in 2004).

As for loud, two of the loudest moments I've ever been a part of occurred this year... during the comeback against Rhode Island, when Dave McClure finally stopped Jimmy Baron; and after the back-to-back jams that made the Maryland game 60-20, five minutes into the second half. I have also been a part of several Duke-UNC games, all of which have made the floor shake at times.

I will also admit that some of the early season games have been rather devoid of energy, such as the pre-Thanksgiving Montana game, where we could hear bench conversations from the grad section. So what DBR is looking for is for every second of every game be like the crazy moments I described above. I'm afraid that is probably just not possible, for the reasons that other posters, particularly watzone and MulletMan, have expressed.

1) Coach K decides what is good and what must go. In 2003 against St. Johns when Coach K grabbed the mic and told us to stop chanting "Fire Jarvis," I must say I was shocked that it happened, and that it worked. The similar explicit ban on chanting "bullsh*t" oat the refs would probably not fly at any other school or even at Duke in the 1970s. Same with the popular football team chant involving the f-word. Coach K repeatedly has said that he wants to encourage us to cheer on our own team and forget making fun of the other team. Some fans, like DBR, apparently think this kind of change is a bad idea. Others are on board because of the next issue.

2) Duke strives to achieve a higher level of class than other institutions. Certainly Duke has been a top university for a long time, but there are those who look down upon the days when panties were thrown at players, for example. Coach K and the Duke administration are among those who look down, and I for one agree with them. It is no surprise that creativity and "craziness" is limited by the enforcement of usually implicit, vague guidelines on what constitutes offense. We live in a politically correct world, and so for Duke to achieve this level of class, we must try to abide by those guidelines.

3) The university is a place for students who want to achieve in the classroom and who may or may not give a damn about sports. I certainly get this response from many of my grad school friends, but it was a growing trend as an undergrad as well. Some students do not want to spend $40K+ every year just to sleep in a tent for two months, are more interested in preparing themselves for professional life, are spending their free time in community service projects, or are simply uninterested in college basketball. I am not attempting to compare today's student body to previous years, but this is the reality on most of today's campus. The decline in hardcore interest in the basketball team has led to the reduction in the number of seats that watzone mentioned, and possibly also to the decline in the pool of creative ideas. Is it a shame? Maybe, depending on your priorities, but for those people, DBR's complaints fall on deaf ears.

Those three main points, along with a higher level of security presence in the stadium, have led to the stunting of creativity that DBR complains about. To those who say that we should be able to be creative without being offensive, you are absolutely right, and we certainly have (see above). Remember, not all that you see on TV is representative of what goes on between the Crazies and the opposing teams.

I, for one, attend every game I can and cheer as loudly as I can until my voice goes out. I appreciate the privilege I have to attend these games and I don't waste it. But I am by no means the majority, especially in my grad school. I hope my point of view has helped others see the realities of being a current Duke student/fan.

BlueDevil2K
03-03-2009, 02:38 PM
You all know now that signs aren't allowed in Cameron, right?



This is simply not true. Signs are checked at the door to make sure that they aren't vulgar, and then let in as long as they are OK. There were many signs at the Carolina game, but there have only been a handful at all of the other games combined.

alteran
03-03-2009, 02:43 PM
Personally, I think mullet and dukebluelemur nailed it. You can't make this omelet without breaking a few eggs.

I've been going to games for over thirty-five years (since I was a boy). It's NOT what it used to be. But it's NOT the fault of the students. Their hands are tied behind their backs.

Shooting down cheers just dissipates energy. Frowning on razzing the other team is just deflating. I know the administration wants things to be PC. I love Coach K, but he's being unrealistic if he thinks you can have the late 70s Cameron atmosphere without going over the line from time to time.

That being said, to any current student Crazies out there... give it all you got tonite, and don't be afraid to tell us fogies to get off our butts. At the very least, we need the exercise.

MulletMan
03-03-2009, 02:51 PM
This is simply not true. Signs are checked at the door to make sure that they aren't vulgar, and then let in as long as they are OK. There were many signs at the Carolina game, but there have only been a handful at all of the other games combined.

Funny, I spend a considerable amount of time at the doors and it is true. Signs have been confiscated all season long, especially by Event One Staffers, at the door unless they are hidden. For the Wake game they told the staff at the doors that signs that were the size of a sheet of notebook paper were permitted, but really, what's the point of that.

There were about 5 or 6 signs at the UNC game, and I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that those were snuck in.

jjasper0729
03-03-2009, 03:04 PM
1) Coach K decides what is good and what must go. In 2003 against St. Johns when Coach K grabbed the mic and told us to stop chanting "Fire Jarvis," I must say I was shocked that it happened, and that it worked....

I would argue that you can keep it clean and still ridicule. Those that result to vulgarity have no creative imagination to come with a witty reposte. Circumstances outside of a person's control (Loren Woods, Juan Dixon) should be taboo out of common courtesy, but if someone does something himself (Ty Lawson) then he's opened the door to ridicule as long as it's not vulgar.


2) Duke strives to achieve a higher level of class than other institutions.

see above. You can ridicule with class. It doesn't have to be vulgar, but the point of "affecting" the game is to distract and get into the head of the opponents and if you make efforts not to "hurt their feelings" then you aren't going to win that fight. Ridicule can be classy.


3) The university is a place for students who want to achieve in the classroom and who may or may not give a damn about sports.

I'm all for getting the most out of your education, but at some point you need a release valve and this is a very good way to accomplish that as well as feel like you're part of something bigger (isn't that the PC thing to be doing now?). I would worry that those that only concentrate on their academic and then future careers could get wound so tight that the slightest thing might send them over an edge. Everyone needs an outlet. If you as a student see someone that is stressed, tell them to take a break and get in line for the game and let the stress out. Everyone that graduates will call Duke their alma mater... Mother of Studies... so become a part of the family. Don't let someone get isolated in focusing only on themselves. Bring a friend to Cameron!

watzone
03-03-2009, 03:24 PM
Funny, I spend a considerable amount of time at the doors and it is true. Signs have been confiscated all season long, especially by Event One Staffers, at the door unless they are hidden. For the Wake game they told the staff at the doors that signs that were the size of a sheet of notebook paper were permitted, but really, what's the point of that.

There were about 5 or 6 signs at the UNC game, and I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that those were snuck in.


I think some security is necessary, but I have never been a fan of Event One Staffers. For one, they are outsiders and how many times have we seen problems with outside security at sporting events over the years?

IOW, they don't completely get the culture, tradition and fact that the events are supposed to be fun - especially for students. I do think they take it a bit too far at times. There have been some incidents with Iron Dukes during football games where the demeanor was not exactly friendly, but more police state like.

If there had been past incidents in Cameron or the Wade parking lot, I'd understand. But in the many years I have been to games, I have seen no incidents which got out of control or needed a bunch of folks in yellow coats to act as if we were manning soccer match in the UK.

I can live with them, but do question the cost effectiveness and wonder what the specified criteria might be with concerns to securing Cameron.

watzone
03-03-2009, 03:32 PM
Personally, I think mullet and dukebluelemur nailed it. You can't make this omelet without breaking a few eggs.

I've been going to games for over thirty-five years (since I was a boy). It's NOT what it used to be. But it's NOT the fault of the students. Their hands are tied behind their backs.

Shooting down cheers just dissipates energy. Frowning on razzing the other team is just deflating. I know the administration wants things to be PC. I love Coach K, but he's being unrealistic if he thinks you can have the late 70s Cameron atmosphere without going over the line from time to time.

That being said, to any current student Crazies out there... give it all you got tonite, and don't be afraid to tell us fogies to get off our butts. At the very least, we need the exercise.

I do understand that Duke doesn't want fans to cross the line, but surely there is a balance.

I clearly remember crazies being told to back off Ron Artest. He of course had a career like game and St. Johns defeated the Devils. The problem is that after the game he taunted the Crazies and "birded" them. Didn't work out too well and the Crazies were forced to swallow that behavior.

I also relaize they are asked to lay of UNC, but there have been years when that took away an edge, IMHO. So, I am truly torn about the issue.

One more thing on signs. One of the reasons size is targeted is that other fans complained that it blocked their vision of the game. That said, maybe if they were held up during timeouts and breaks would work.

GTHC! Say it while you can;)

Lid
03-03-2009, 03:37 PM
Funny, I spend a considerable amount of time at the doors and it is true. Signs have been confiscated all season long, especially by Event One Staffers, at the door unless they are hidden. For the Wake game they told the staff at the doors that signs that were the size of a sheet of notebook paper were permitted, but really, what's the point of that.

There were about 5 or 6 signs at the UNC game, and I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that those were snuck in.
I was near the undergrad door for the Carolina game, and saw the staffers checking signs and then letting them through. They definitely weren't snuck in, but they were examined for content. I don't know what's happened at other games, because I haven't noticed anyone else even trying to bring signs in.

I'm only pointing this out because I'm hoping that the "dollars to doughnuts" phrase means that now you owe me some Krispy Kreme. :)

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-03-2009, 03:42 PM
I think some security is necessary, but I have never been a fan of Event One Staffers. For one, they are outsiders and how many times have we seen problems with outside security at sporting events over the years?

IOW, they don't completely get the culture, tradition and fact that the events are supposed to be fun - especially for students. I do think they take it a bit too far at times. There have been some incidents with Iron Dukes during football games where the demeanor was not exactly friendly, but more police state like.

If there had been past incidents in Cameron or the Wade parking lot, I'd understand. But in the many years I have been to games, I have seen no incidents which got out of control or needed a bunch of folks in yellow coats to act as if we were manning soccer match in the UK.

I can live with them, but do question the cost effectiveness and wonder what the specified criteria might be with concerns to securing Cameron.

The Event One Staffers don't seem to have a plan or pattern for releasing traffic from the parking lots. Areas where the police officers direct the traffic flow much better and are regulated by the use of commonly used signals for indicating the right of way.

Jumbo
03-03-2009, 04:23 PM
I clearly remember crazies being told to back off Ron Artest. He of course had a career like game and St. Johns defeated the Devils. The problem is that after the game he taunted the Crazies and "birded" them. Didn't work out too well and the Crazies were forced to swallow that behavior.

That was Erick Barkley, not Ron Artest.

watzone
03-03-2009, 04:26 PM
The Event One Staffers don't seem to have a plan or pattern for releasing traffic from the parking lots. Areas where the police officers direct the traffic flow much better and are regulated by the use of commonly used signals for indicating the right of way.,

I have the same parking pass as always and have been directed to three different parking lots this season and there is certainly not a pattern. I can't tell you how many times I have seen lines form going into the parking lot while they talk to someone and do not ask that they pull over for directions or to turn around. Then there was the time where I was waved forward yet the next staffer said that lot was full. When I tried to back up ten yards, I was told I would have to ride through, go around and start the process over which took another 10 or 15 minutes. I know some of their workers from familiarity and they are good folks, but overall, it's a bit messy. My main gripe is that they sent them out to keep students off the field in football in a game where we were trailing. It seems that would pump up the visitor in that Duke must be thinking they are going to score and tear the goal post down. Stay off the dadgum field until Duke at least has the lead.

watzone
03-03-2009, 04:28 PM
That was Erick Barkley, not Ron Artest.

I told you I rememered it clearly;) That's what a few hundred games in Cameron will do for you.

Jumbo
03-03-2009, 04:32 PM
I would argue that you can keep it clean and still ridicule. Those that result to vulgarity have no creative imagination to come with a witty reposte. Circumstances outside of a person's control (Loren Woods, Juan Dixon) should be taboo out of common courtesy, but if someone does something himself (Ty Lawson) then he's opened the door to ridicule as long as it's not vulgar.



see above. You can ridicule with class. It doesn't have to be vulgar, but the point of "affecting" the game is to distract and get into the head of the opponents and if you make efforts not to "hurt their feelings" then you aren't going to win that fight. Ridicule can be classy.



I'm all for getting the most out of your education, but at some point you need a release valve and this is a very good way to accomplish that as well as feel like you're part of something bigger (isn't that the PC thing to be doing now?). I would worry that those that only concentrate on their academic and then future careers could get wound so tight that the slightest thing might send them over an edge. Everyone needs an outlet. If you as a student see someone that is stressed, tell them to take a break and get in line for the game and let the stress out. Everyone that graduates will call Duke their alma mater... Mother of Studies... so become a part of the family. Don't let someone get isolated in focusing only on themselves. Bring a friend to Cameron!

I agree with basically all your points. Further, I'd say some of what the poster you responded to considers "clever" I'd call mundane (i.e. "Gollum.")

As you said, you can be extremely clever and effective without being vulgar. I've long been a proponent of getting the entire student section to shut up while someone is shooting a FT and letting one loudmouth engage in a "convo" with the shooter. That's clever, distracting, different. And not vulgar.

There are ways to follow the spirit of what K is saying, or what the Avuncular Letter contained, and still push the limits. But, as I said, a lot of that comes down to simple basketball awareness. It was amazing at the VT game back in January, for instance, that the majority of fans had no clue that VT had four points in the first eight minutes. Too many students just don't know what's going on in front of them. That's sad. And I hate the stories I'm hearing now, where Cameron has somehow become classist. From what I understand, a lot of the "frat" types look down on a lot of the Crazies as "nerds" seeking a social outlet, and then avoid the games because it feels "uncool" to them. To those people, I say "get over yourselves." And to the people getting labeled as "nerds," I say there's a simple way to overcome that -- if you're gonna line up for the best seats, then learn the game. Don't be there for the event -- be there to make a difference.

Onward! ;)

Atldukie79
03-03-2009, 04:34 PM
I concur with most of the statements made about the realities of the modern era, from PC behavior to Coach K's influence to a student pool that, on balance, has less interest in hoops or perhaps simply has too many alternate forms of entertainment or academic interests.

As a late 70's student and band member, a cold winter's night offered few alternatives to a passionate CIS game. Did we have 2 or 3 channels on the TV in the commons room? No PCs (computers, not behavior) to siphon our time and interest. And as a native Durhamite with a life time of hoops interest...there is no where else I would want to be.

That said, I am glad we moved on from the pizza boxes, condoms,BS chants etc. I chuckled then, but can't appreciate such boorish behavior now. (yes, I am old!)

Watzone alluded to fewer seats filled by the students today than in the 70's and before. It should be noted that a renovation of Cameron resulted in new bleachers. Particularly the old base line bleachers extended from the upper level almost to the playing floor. This was a more intimidating backdrop for shooters. The band sat in folding chairs right under the basket where the cheerleaders now sit. I could reach out and touch the players. You can bet they heard us playing.

(Note, a personal favorite was the time Wake's center, and a notorious pot head was waiting for a free throw on the low block. My trombone colleague said to him in a stage whisper...."Have a toke!...He started laughing, didn't block out, and Duke tipped the rebound in for a bucket.)

Oh well, cheer them on tonight.

BlueDevil2K
03-03-2009, 04:38 PM
I was near the undergrad door for the Carolina game, and saw the staffers checking signs and then letting them through. They definitely weren't snuck in, but they were examined for content. I don't know what's happened at other games, because I haven't noticed anyone else even trying to bring signs in.

I'm only pointing this out because I'm hoping that the "dollars to doughnuts" phrase means that now you owe me some Krispy Kreme. :)

And I was one of the people checking them :-)

Maybe the Staff One folks have different standards for the grad students than the non-Staff One folks have for the undergrads. There is certainly no "notebook paper" standard for the undergrads. Heck, they can even bring in blank pieces of posterboard, since they don't say anything objectionable!

FireOgilvie
03-03-2009, 04:56 PM
And I hate the stories I'm hearing now, where Cameron has somehow become classist. From what I understand, a lot of the "frat" types look down on a lot of the Crazies as "nerds" seeking a social outlet, and then avoid the games because it feels "uncool" to them. To those people, I say "get over yourselves." And to the people getting labeled as "nerds," I say there's a simple way to overcome that -- if you're gonna line up for the best seats, then learn the game. Don't be there for the event -- be there to make a difference.

That, to me, is the main reason why Duke is nowhere near as "intimidating" as it has been in the past. The quietest people I knew in school were hardcore tenters and none of them knew much about basketball outside of who the Duke players were. A lot of students don't want to be associated with the current Crazies. I don't like it, but I think that's the way it has been going...

Opposing players aren't intimidated by this:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/09osfyW8BCg4Q/610x.jpg

MonitorMom
03-03-2009, 05:40 PM
They can be creative, but.....


This year a player on an opposing team was caught shoplifting soda in a convenience store. The plan the Crazies had to all offer him a can of the offending Dr. Pepper was squashed by administration.

....they may not

natedog4ever
03-03-2009, 05:49 PM
I sat in Cameron from 92 to 2001. Every other year there would be a game where Coach K woud stop the game, get on the mike, and say that he would forfeit the game if he heard something like that again.

In my mind, it's the crazies' job to make him do this. If they don't, then they aren't toeing that line. If you are going to blame the constraints on K, then let him control them. I am willing to bet he hasn't been forced to stop a game since 2000.

mehmattski
03-03-2009, 06:03 PM
I sat in Cameron from 92 to 2001. Every other year there would be a game where Coach K woud stop the game, get on the mike, and say that he would forfeit the game if he heard something like that again.

In my mind, it's the crazies' job to make him do this. If they don't, then they aren't toeing that line. If you are going to blame the constraints on K, then let him control them. I am willing to bet he hasn't been forced to stop a game since 2000.

Er, incorrect. He stopped a 2003 game against St. John's because we were taunting his friend Mike Jarvis with a "Fire Jarvis" chant. He also nixed some cheer last season, I think it may have been a "bullsh*t" chant. Not that either of those are particularly clever, though I should defer to Jumbo on that, because he is the arbiter of cleverness, apparently.

natedog4ever
03-03-2009, 06:05 PM
Er, incorrect. He stopped a 2003 game against St. John's because we were taunting his friend Mike Jarvis with a "Fire Jarvis" chant. He also nixed some cheer last season, I think it may have been a "bullsh*t" chant. Not that either of those are particularly clever, though I should defer to Jumbo on that, because he is the arbiter of cleverness, apparently.

Then make him do it again, and loudly. Simple enough.

Duvall
03-03-2009, 06:27 PM
Meh. Cleverness is overrated, creativity is overrated and "pushing the envelope" is *really* overrated.

Fill the stands and be loud. Anything else is gravy.

Jumbo
03-03-2009, 07:39 PM
Not that either of those are particularly clever, though I should defer to Jumbo on that, because he is the arbiter of cleverness, apparently.

Was that really necessary? And we both know "B.S." isn't a clever approach to heckling. What's the big deal?

77devil
03-03-2009, 10:24 PM
Was that really necessary? And we both know "B.S." isn't a clever approach to heckling. What's the big deal?

CIS sounded pretty quiet tonight. Can someone who was there provide an in person assessment?

Acymetric
03-03-2009, 11:53 PM
CIS sounded pretty quiet tonight. Can someone who was there provide an in person assessment?

I felt like the first half was very weak, but I thought the whole crowd came on strong in the second half when the team needed it. I know I was screaming, and the guy behind me and to the right was goin' nuts as well.

Sixthman
03-04-2009, 12:06 AM
First, they showed up -- the student section was full, and full early. Given that the Crazies had been called out I was shocked by how little they brought. Even with the players urging them on, they had nothing in the first half. Multiple times people around me actually commented on the silence in the arena on dead balls. The second half was better, and the last four and a half minutes (on the clock) were something special. For that closing stretch they were loud, intense, and into the game. That's how Cameron needs to be the whole game.

Ima Facultiwyfe
03-04-2009, 12:12 AM
...when the team members themselves led the cheers.
Love, Ima