Duke v. SIU Post-Game Thread

[Cavlaw]

Post thoughts and comments on the game in this thread.

[CameronCrazy'11]

Great game by Zoubek, keeping us on top in the first half.

[Cdog923]

Game ball to Brian Zoubek. He was the lone bright spot in a dismal first half.

[BlueintheFace]

Terrible first half (except Zoubek). Nolan looked bad, G looked tentative, and Singler had fouling issues.

Second half looked amazing. I hope this is the beginning of a new rhythm to the offense..

[VaDukie]

Game ball to Gerald. They gave him the open jumper and he made them pay. And that dunk :eek:

[godukerocks]

Was it me, or did Coach K look unusually irked in the postgame handshake?

[CameronCrazy'11]

Terrible first half (except Zoubek). Nolan looked bad, G looked tentative, and Singler had fouling issues.

Second half looked amazing. I hope this is the beginning of a new rhythm to the offense..

So far this season, it seems like the players have had some trouble adjusting to a style of offense that involves inside play a lot more than last year. This game might be where we finally ironed out the kinks.

[Acymetric]

Was it me, or did Coach K look unusually irked in the postgame handshake?

I didn't watch, but Inonehand mentioned the same thing in the game thread or earlier in this thread. Maybe a little tired of the constant over-physical play, particularly at the end after the game was over? I don't know.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Strong game by both teams. Duke's talent eventually won out. We had an extra gear and they didn't. Both teams will look much better later in the season (and when not facing such staunch defenses). Want to give a shout out to Elliot, who had some big plays and FT's in the first half. He and Z kept us close on O until the fireworks started.

Stuck at work so I haven't watched the game yet (just gametracker). Did G break out, or just hit a lot of threes?

[devildownunder]

...and this is only from following the gamecast online, not actually seeing anything.

1. I love that we pounded the ball inside in the first half and that Zoubek was able to take advantage. More please. Develop that inside game at all costs.

2. It appears we played an opponent that was determined to be physical and we handled that physicality quite well. That's a good sign. Teams will try this tactic with us all year.

[JDev]

Talk about a tale of two halves. Finally, there was the G everyone has been waiting to see. There was pregame discussion about SIU's D and physicality, and Duke was more impressive, by a large margin, in both areas. Just need to shore up that endless avalanche of first half turnovers.

[SMO]

The Saluki fans that visited the board this week were right about one thing: SIU sends their opponents to the line A LOT! Holy cow.

[Faison1]

Was it me, or did Coach K look unusually irked in the postgame handshake?

I noticed that too.....or maybe he was just trying to control how happy he was that his team looked awesome in the second half. In particular, that 7-point play by Singler, the jams by Nolan and Gerald, the awesome performance from the stripe, and the overall play of Zoubs.

Well done, guys!!!

[dukestheheat]

godukerocks-

I thought K looked irked as well; this was a very physical game and I wonder if the play against Singler was still on his brain?

Anyway, this is a good win for Duke to help shake out the (many) cobwebs that have plagued them these last 1.5 games.

On to Friday!

dth.

[slower]

I didn't watch, but Inonehand mentioned the same thing in the game thread or earlier in this thread. Maybe a little tired of the constant over-physical play, particularly at the end after the game was over? I don't know.

...is more like recovering from a mugging.

And Kyle Singler is the toughest man alive. That was the scariest moment I can remember as a Duke fan.

[dukelifer]

Well I have never really watched a free throw shooting contest before- but Duke looked good playing it. A very workman like performance by the Devils in the second half. It was great to see G get in a groove tonight. He is a much better player when he looks for his jumpers. He was a star tonight and that dunk will be a Sportscenter highlight. Singler has to be the toughest kid in the world. He gets slammed to the floor more than any player I have seen and just bounces up with a smile on his face. Amazing. Thomas hits his throws tonight-great to see and Duke put on a clinic at the line. They just broke their backs with a patient offense. That was great to see. On to the championship game!

[Namtilal]

What day is the next game -- Fri or Sat? What time?

[Cavlaw]

...is more like recovering from a mugging.

And Kyle Singler is the toughest man alive. That was the scariest moment I can remember as a Duke fan.
I think he's the only guy who's going to have a hangover tomorrow - I can't imagine he won't have a headache in the morning after slamming his head on the floor like that.

[SMO]

...and this is only from following the gamecast online, not actually seeing anything.

1. I love that we pounded the ball inside in the first half and that Zoubek was able to take advantage. More please. Develop that inside game at all costs.

2. It appears we played an opponent that was determined to be physical and we handled that physicality quite well. That's a good sign. Teams will try this tactic with us all year.

Regarding #2, Duke definitely handled it well. It almost seemed to frustrate SIU that their physicality had virtually no effect . Man that foul from behind looked ugly. It wasn't as bad as it looked initially, but maybe that's what the Saluki fans posting here were talking about. If so, it's nothing to be proud of.

[dukebluelemur]

2. It appears we played an opponent that was determined to be physical and we handled that physicality quite well. That's a good sign. Teams will try this tactic with us all year.

... If we shoot FT like we did this game, they arent going to like the result. 22? 24? Straight.... LT making FTs? Great signs.

[mapei]

godukerocks-

I thought K looked irked as well; this was a very physical game and I wonder if the play against Singler was still on his brain?


Other than that play, which was pretty flagrant, I didn't see anything worth griping about.

[Diddy]

As good a half (second) as Duke has had in years. But we cannot start cold like that against a team like UNC. It will be over by halftime. Good win, but we have to start better.

[SMO]

As good a half (second) as Duke has had in years. But we cannot start cold like that against a team like UNC. It will be over by halftime. Good win, but we have to start better.

Just taking care of the ball better will do wonders. I don't think we'll see them throw it around like that again past December.

[dukestheheat]

What day is the next game -- Fri or Sat? What time?

Friday night in the Championship game at 7:00pm est.

dth.

[AKG]

Nice basketball game that broke out in the last five minutes of that football game...


At least now I understand the "Saluki Hangover" AKA "Injuries"

[JDev]

Kudos to whoever mentioned SIU's difficulty keeping people off the free throw line in their previous games. that was very evident tonight, to say the least. 47 attempts!

[Acymetric]

...is more like recovering from a mugging.

And Kyle Singler is the toughest man alive. That was the scariest moment I can remember as a Duke fan.

I forget exactly what caused it, but that time Duhon slammed his head against the floor was pretty scary too. His freshman year. He came back and played in the second half. Man I loved that guy. But yeah, true story. Singler is just plain tough.

[Saratoga2]

Wonder if he will crawl out from his rock after the 25 point loss. I'll give him credit, he said the Salukis would play physical. All it did was put Duke at the line, and our guys hit those shots. I was especially proud of Thomas who hit shot after shot. Must of practiced a lot recently.

I liked Zoubek's game tonight. When the stat line comes out it will show over 10 points and 6 or 7 rebounds. He altered a lot of shots as well.

Good for Henderson as well. He finally became more assertive and really had a terrific 2nd half. We need that from him.

You wonder at all the turnovers in the first half. I counted 15. I know they played good defense against us but many of our turnovers were self inflicted. Paulus will make an excellent play and try a no look pass on the next for no reason and throw it away. Two of those tonight. When Duke takes care of the ball, it is awfully hard to beat.

I thought RI would beat the Salukis. Time will tell on that one as they each get more games under their belt No injuries tonight, although I was concerned when Singler went down.

[Cell-R]

1. Zoubek: very impressive first half. I don't think i've seen him score that much in his career combined.

2. Czyz: HE GOT PT!!! Whoo! Obviously he was a little nervous, as proven by his Free Throw attempts. I'm just glad he got in.

3. Paulus: I really admire his heart. Playing with an injured arm. Did you notice some of his fingers were in a splint?

4. Thomas: Made free throws!? 6-6??? Woah!

5. Henderson: AMAZING second half. I was SO excited when he started hitting his threes. And his DUNK? Awesome.

6. Singler: Not as good of a second half as Henderson points-wise, but I am most impressed with him. Getting up after that fall with a smile on his face. Sure, a mouthy player might be something we need, but it's nice to know he can go both ways and keep his head (making a 5 point play at the same time).

Overall I was very happy with the second half. The first half wasn't great offensively, turnovers were horrible, but I prefer to focus on the pro's :D

[mgtr]

A couple of points not yet made -- Scheyer played a good game, particularly in the first half. Will want to see the stats. The hard foul on Singler was stupid and unnecessary -- that may be why Coach was unhappy at the end. SIU fans posted before the game that they were rough and played tough defense, and they were right. Fay is a very good player, and their freshman guard may become a great player.
Game ball -- chop it up and give parts to G, Zoubs, and Singler.

[shereec]

It almost seemed to frustrate SIU that their physicality had virtually no effect .

And you did notice, didn't you, with 4 minutes left in the game who was doubled over hanging onto their shorts trying to catch their breath? Their physicality had an effect - on THEM!

[godukerocks]

Both Nolan's and Gerald's dunks provided some much needed energy. I would love to have a poster of one of those dunks.

I agree with the general sentiment; a very flat performance in the first half, but much better all-around in the second. It was a nice twenty-five point win on a night where we were not clicking the entire game.

[Newton_14]

Well hello Mr Henderson, glad you were finally able to join us! And your timing was great!

This game had alot of ...don't quite know how to put it but here you go..

Worst half of offense I have seen since the LSU game in GA..

Most turnovers in one half I remember from a Duke team...

Best game I have ever seen from Zoubs....

Best half of offense execution of the season..

1 very nasty dunk by Nolan...

One of the nastiest falls I have ever seen a player take on a breakaway dunk attempt (Singler, very fortunate he is not hurt)

Best half of offensive and defensive play by Henderson

1 very sick dunk by Henderson

and finally...

the coldest postgame walk thru the handshake line I have ever seen K take... dude was pissed to put it lightly...

[mo.st.dukie]

My favorite stat of the night (other than the score): Duke - 42 rebounds, SIU - 28

[SMO]

And you did notice, didn't you, with 4 minutes left in the game who was doubled over hanging onto their shorts trying to catch their breath? Their physicality had an effect - on THEM!

Good point. They also had a few guys limping and nursing other injuries. I don't like to see them get hurt, but find it amusing given some of the trash talked by 1-2 of their fans on this board.

[Bob Green]

Our three-headed post player scored 18 points and grabbed 13 rebounds. That is a solid post presence.

[SMO]

Hah! I just caught Lavin's postgame thoughts on Duke and he mentioned their lack of a post presence on either side of the ball. He must have missed a good game tonight!

[BlueintheFace]

Where is ChicagoSaluki... didn't he say he'd be back?

[Bob Green]

When (if) the Saluki fans show back up we all need to be on our best behavior.

[Cdog923]

Was it me, or did Coach K look unusually irked in the postgame handshake?

Had there been no other fouls in the game, the hard foul on Singler would've been enough to irk me.

[SMO]

Where is ChicagoSaluki... didn't he say he'd be back?

He has the Saluki hangover.

[Constantstrain 81]

In the Brand years (10 years ago), you played your first games around Thanksgiving. The offense is clearly still a work in progress, although I believe that to be more a product of the early early season nature of things than anything else.

The first half was horrendous in terms of turnovers - most of them unnecessary. Zoubek did play a very important role in that first half - very solid. I thought Plumlee's 1st half minutes were also good for him. Scheyer was steady, too. Henderson in the 1st half? I thought that we might as well red-shirt him.

In the second half I worried with our 18th turnover just seconds in. However, we settled down. Henderson looked for and found his spots. Singler played much better. Everyone shot free throws well and went to the basket.

It was a team effort - drawing fouls, hitting free throws, and playing defense. The defense has looked tough - still some help defense and rotation problems - but active and aggressive.

Great to see Henderson break out.

[slower]

Where is ChicagoSaluki... didn't he say he'd be back?

He is experiencing a Dukie hangover.

[DukieBoy]

It's nice to see gerald back. If he plays like that, z plays like he did in the first half, and scheyer and singler play like they did against rhode island, we will be near impossible to beat. and btw, IMO nolan's dunk was far more nasty than hendersons

[slower]

Chicago Saluki has starved because Kyle Singler just drank his milkshake.

[RainingThrees]

4 things I loved during this game.

1. Zoubs play.

2. Free throw shooting

3. G's dunk

4. And the best was Nolans dunk, over 2 people!!

[dukestheheat]

Hey, anybody got a Saluki hangover going on? I started feeling it right AS Nolan Smith was coming down court to SLAM that ball!

dth.

[dw0827]

Yea, the first half was ugly. Offensively, we couldn't do anything. Very sloppy.

BUT . . . what I did especially like about the first half is that we bore down on defense. That is a sign of character. Like "I ain't hitting the broad side of the barn right now so I'd better hunker down and play some damned good defense or we're in serious trouble." And they did.

Sometimes the offense won't be there . . . for whatever reason. But defense is all about attitude, grit, and determination. And the fact that they played good defense at the same time they were stinking up the place offensively is, in an odd way, very encouraging. After all, they were up 6 at the half (I think).

[mo.st.dukie]

Hah! I just caught Lavin's postgame thoughts on Duke and he mentioned their lack of a post presence on either side of the ball. He must have missed a good game tonight!

Nobody's going to give our post players credit until they put up numbers like they did tonight on a consistent basis and against good teams.

[SMO]

Nobody's going to give our post players credit until they put up numbers like they did tonight on a consistent basis and against good teams.

I wouldn't have it any other way. If it's possible for Duke to be underestimated in any way, I'm all for it.

[diesel]

Perhaps the thing I most appreciated about tonight's performance was our free throw shooting. It was a pleasant shot to the system to see Lance make alll those free throws. How long would we have to go back in Blue Devil history to see a performance like tonights--or has there ever been one like tonights?

[TNDukeFan]

I'm glad others noticed it - I didn't see one "good game" from K's lips, not one of those patented handtaps on the chest of the opposing players. Wow.

[Acymetric]

I'm glad others noticed it - I didn't see one "good game" from K's lips, not one of those patented handtaps on the chest of the opposing players. Wow.

Anyone hear any postgame comments from him? Curious if he's pissed about something or if people are just reading too much into the postgame handshakes.

[Kedsy]

One of the nastiest falls I have ever seen a player take on a breakaway dunk attempt (Singler, very fortunate he is not hurt)


It reminded me of the hit and fall Robert Brickey took against Seton Hall in the 1989 Final Four. Brickey, of course, had to leave the game and it completely turned the game around. It's annoying just thinking about it.

This is the first game I've seen (the others I just followed on GameTracker) but it doesn't appear as if we're playing the Phoenix/D'Antoni offense any more. We seem to be much more of a half court set team. Which of course is perfect for Zoubek and gives him a chance to contribute, but not so great for G.

In the first half, while Nolan was running the offense it looked like 5 guys playing one on one (which is what I expect the first three games were like as well, based on the paltry number of assists we had in those games. When Greg ran the show in the first half it looked more like offense, at least to me, although he did have a couple silly turnovers.

In the second half, to me it appeared as if the players were moving and cutting so much better. I don't know whether it was Nolan playing better or G playing better or just all the players finally understanding what K was yelling at them during halftime.

As far as the freshmen are concerned, I really liked the brief look I saw of Williams; I think Plumlee will be very good once he adjusts to the speed of the college game; and I think Czyz looked lost.

I hope the team has bottled what they were doing at the free throw line and drink some of it before every game.

[ricks68]

It is always interesting to note the emphasis on flashy play that initially appears on the boards after a win, while the best play often gets ignored. Jon Scheyer had another great game. His defense was outstanding, and his heady play caused the Salukis all kinds of problems. He just plain knows what he is doing out there, and keeps doing it at a very high level of intensity. The kid can flat out play on both ends of the court.

ricks

[roywhite]

A 7-point possession! How often do you see that?

[Indoor66]

It appeared to me that Lance had much more arc on his free throws - they were softer. I loved the outcome.

[slower]

It is always interesting to note the emphasis on flashy play that initially appears on the boards after a win, while the best play often gets ignored. Jon Scheyer had another great game. His defense was outstanding, and his heady play caused the Salukis all kinds of problems. He just plain knows what he is doing out there, and keeps doing it at a very high level of intensity. The kid can flat out play on both ends of the court.

ricks

So true. Scheyer reminds me a lot of Spanarkel in some of the "High Basketball IQ" things that he does. And his defense is just superb. Heck, everything he does is superb!

[SMO]

It is always interesting to note the emphasis on flashy play that initially appears on the boards after a win, while the best play often gets ignored. Jon Scheyer had another great game. His defense was outstanding, and his heady play caused the Salukis all kinds of problems. He just plain knows what he is doing out there, and keeps doing it at a very high level of intensity. The kid can flat out play on both ends of the court.

ricks

Absolutely. On a couple plays it seemed he knew where SIU was going to pass the ball before they did. I'm starting to think he may be Mr. Reliable on this team; the guy that does a very good job every night out.

[dukebluelemur]

It appeared to me that Lance had much more arc on his free throws - they were softer. I loved the outcome.

I noticed the same thing... hopefully he's been working with the staff and making some corrections to his shot. It didnt look half bad tonight. Good for him.

[Ben63]

Great game for the Devils tonight. It's the 1st one I have been able to watch (thanks ESPNU) and turnovers did concern me in the 1st half. I love the way the team responded in the 2nd half. Great game by Zoubek, I hope this is his breakout season, we could really use a legit post presence this year. He doesn't seem to foul as much and he made his free throws which is a GREAT sign. Overall the FT shooting was FANTASTIC and if that continues it could win us some close games. I don't think anyone had an absolutely terrible game but aforementioned Zoubek, Henderson, and Singler played great. Very pleased with the 2nd half performance but need to come out ready to play in the 1st half tomorrow, especially if we play UCLA.

I will miss tomorrow's game, but for good reason. I am playing in my high school football team's district championship game. Hoping for wins for both of us:)

[RainingThrees]

Zoubek with the pretty free throw stroke!! It sticks out a lot because I remember how ugly his old form was. Keep it up and please don't bring back the stroke from hell zoub.

[Inonehand]

I noticed the same thing... hopefully he's been working with the staff and making some corrections to his shot. It didnt look half bad tonight. Good for him.

I'm not so sure. I thought it was way too high...just like the two games I've watched already this year. I'll be excited with 70% from LT.

[BlueintheFace]

Little things that could be lost in the shuffle:

Zoubek's defensive positioning
Lance's FT shooting
Scheyer stepping in on weakside help for the steal in the first half
Paulus giving up the open three to an open LT under the basket

[SMO]

Zoubek with the pretty free throw stroke!! It sticks out a lot because I remember how ugly his old form was. Keep it up and please don't bring back the stroke from hell zoub.

The General sure liked it too. I was surprised how he kept talking about it. Guess that's what happens in such a low scoring half!

[CameronCrazy'11]

It is always interesting to note the emphasis on flashy play that initially appears on the boards after a win, while the best play often gets ignored. Jon Scheyer had another great game. His defense was outstanding, and his heady play caused the Salukis all kinds of problems. He just plain knows what he is doing out there, and keeps doing it at a very high level of intensity. The kid can flat out play on both ends of the court.

ricks

Scheyer might be the most underrated player in D1. He has this uncanny ability to go out and get 15-20 points without anyone really noticing.

[roywhite]

It was a nice looking FT stroke that Zoubs had tonight.

Generally looks more comfortable on the court, more confident. Keep it up, Zoubs!

[Diddy]

I kinda wish G hadn't played so well in the second half. I am sure a lot of NBA scouts saw what he did in the second half, in a NBA arena, and entertained some unpaltable (for Duke) thoughts.

The big knock on him was outside shooting. Not tonight. And that Dunk? Top 10 play. He just screams, NBA starting 2 guard.

[greybeard]

Best penetration of the inside with the pass by Duke I've seen. Guys including Z, got the ball early and often on the movel at least before everone was settled. When tried to stop big guy rotation to the ball, big guy screened for the off side forward (my first high school "play", and the result, Gerald catches it in the paint rolling to the basket and bam!

SI was extremely physical on the exterior. Duke can expect alot of that but now they have the ability to hurt people with pass penetration that goes to people on the move. "On the move" does not have to mean dramatic movement. A small movement that creates some separation and has the defender's momentum catching up a little late; bingo, if there is no tight help, there is an excellent scoring opportunity.

The potential for a high-low inside game remains, and it could be real exciting. Singler to Z or Lance or Plumee.

I still like very much what little I see of Williams. By mid ACC, I expect this guy to be hurting some people.

This is the third major offensive adjustment in as many years by Duke. I think that it is tremendously exciting and interesting.

I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but if a 7'1" guy like Z catches it in in rhythm close in with a little movement and edge, don't be telling me about how slow his feet might or not be, or how tight an athlete the big is who is going to try to stop him. Like Bobby, whom I hate said, they're gonna foul him or he's gonna hurt them. Maybe.

If that happens, the complextion of games change. You get points and fouls at the rim in that fashion, you make the defense adjust to stop that and work to stop Z and Lance, watch out.

I don't care how late and little he played, I still like what I saw from Marty.

Hasving guys in addition to Kyle, Gerald, and Smith, and also Scheyer being able to finish inside also, and here I am thinking my man Williams and maybe even Marty, maybe also McClure, well, let's just say I'm interested to see what happens. And, hey, I ain't even a Dukie!

[BlueintheFace]

QUOTE OF THE GAME-

"He's 7-1"
- Coach K to the ref following an over-the-back call in which Zoubek tipped the ball in.

I couldn't stop laughing...

[TimmySIU]

It was certainly made clear who had the better team tonight. Congratulations on the win.

I've been reading this site for the past week but never felt the need to sign up until reading some of the post game commentary - particularly the comments regarding coach K and the intentional foul called on Tony Boyle.

I'm sure many of you will say that I was looking at the game through maroon colored glasses but how could that play have been called as an intentional foul? The kid swung at the ball - and hit the rim with his hand trying to make the block. Watch the play again - and watch what Boyle does. He goes for the ball. Plain and simple. He didn't try to take out the shooter, he went for the ball and in that attempt he hit the shooter with the body. Was he late? Yes. Was he intentionally trying to foul? I don't see how any rational college basketball fan could say "yes."

Just my $.02

[DBFAN]

QUOTE OF THE GAME-

"He's 7-1"
- Coach K to the ref following an over-the-back call in which Zoubek tipped the ball in.

I couldn't stop laughing...

I was wondering if anyone had noticed that too, I thought it was pretty clever.

I also have a question, the foul on the Singler breakaway, was there actually a fouled called initially. I for one did not hear a whistle. I was just curious if the refs did not call it until K got upset. I may be the only one who thinks this, but I don't think that foul deserved a tec. The aftermath look bad so the refs sometimes jump the gun. Just my 2 cents.

[-jk]

It was certainly made clear who had the better team tonight. Congratulations on the win.

I've been reading this site for the past week but never felt the need to sign up until reading some of the post game commentary - particularly the comments regarding coach K and the intentional foul called on Tony Boyle.

I'm sure many of you will say that I was looking at the game through maroon colored glasses but how could that play have been called as an intentional foul? The kid swung at the ball - and hit the rim with his hand trying to make the block. Watch the play again - and watch what Boyle does. He goes for the ball. Plain and simple. He didn't try to take out the shooter, he went for the ball and in that attempt he hit the shooter with the body. Was he late? Yes. Was he intentionally trying to foul? I don't see how any rational college basketball fan could say "yes."

Just my $.02

Without getting into a long winded argument on it, it was a close call and could have gone either way. One arm went for the ball; one arm was firmly planted in the lower back.

Oddly, I think it was the trail official that made the call. I couldn't tell who had the better angle, though. Had the game been less physical overall, they may have let it go.

-jk

[jacone21]

It was certainly made clear who had the better team tonight. Congratulations on the win.

I've been reading this site for the past week but never felt the need to sign up until reading some of the post game commentary - particularly the comments regarding coach K and the intentional foul called on Tony Boyle.

I'm sure many of you will say that I was looking at the game through maroon colored glasses but how could that play have been called as an intentional foul? The kid swung at the ball - and hit the rim with his hand trying to make the block. Watch the play again - and watch what Boyle does. He goes for the ball. Plain and simple. He didn't try to take out the shooter, he went for the ball and in that attempt he hit the shooter with the body. Was he late? Yes. Was he intentionally trying to foul? I don't see how any rational college basketball fan could say "yes."

Just my $.02

Of all the plays in the game, that's probably not the one to look for agreement on here. It was an ugly, ugly foul. If he hadn't made two earlier hard, ugly fouls already in the game, I might could see it, but any rational basketball player knows you can really hurt someone like that. You have to make a decision to foul someone that hard.

[ACCBBallFan]

It was getting a little lonely on the Zoubek band wagon. Welcome aboard. He will be needed in ACC and about half the OOC where foes have guys too big for Lance and Dave, which was nto the case tonight, but gotta get Z and Miles ready.

Game went about as expected. SIU is a good team and was in it until 2 of its 3 bigs fouled out just as I had said in the pre-game thread. Duke has 6 bigs including Czyz who can play against mid majors and SIU only has 3, maybe 4.

Not sure if it was Nolan or Jon, but whoever took SIU's heart and soul Mullins out of his game also made an unnoticed difference. Taking all cbssportsline stats into consideration (since ESPN did not have some important stats, like minutes, steals, blocks).

SIU can be very happy with their freshman Dillard and Fay. As many Saluki's predicted, dumb fouls and young team turnovers killed them.

Rating Player
74 Gerald Henderson, G-F
70 Jon Scheyer, G
68 Kevin Dillard, G
62 Kyle Singler, F
59 Carlton Fay, F
58 Brian Zoubek, C
52 TOTALS-Duke
45 Lance Thomas, F
43 Nolan Smith, G
40 TOTALS-SIU
40 Nick Evans, C
38 Elliot Williams, G
34 Ryan Hare, G
34 Bryan Mullins, G
24 Wesley Clemmons, G
23 Tony Boyle, F
21 Justin Bocot, G
21 Greg Paulus, G
15 Christian Cornelius, G
14 Martynas Pocius, G
10 David McClure, F
5 Miles Plumlee, F
2 Anthony Booker, F
1 Olek Czyz, F

[Newton_14]

It was certainly made clear who had the better team tonight. Congratulations on the win.

I've been reading this site for the past week but never felt the need to sign up until reading some of the post game commentary - particularly the comments regarding coach K and the intentional foul called on Tony Boyle.

I'm sure many of you will say that I was looking at the game through maroon colored glasses but how could that play have been called as an intentional foul? The kid swung at the ball - and hit the rim with his hand trying to make the block. Watch the play again - and watch what Boyle does. He goes for the ball. Plain and simple. He didn't try to take out the shooter, he went for the ball and in that attempt he hit the shooter with the body. Was he late? Yes. Was he intentionally trying to foul? I don't see how any rational college basketball fan could say "yes."

Just my $.02

I agree with you totally in that at the top Boyle made a clean attempt at the ball, the problem occurred with the left arm push in the lower back of Singler that took his legs out. Intentional and Dirty? I did not think so.. only Boyle knows for sure.. Good thing is Singler was not hurt...

[FireOgilvie]

He didn't try to take out the shooter, he went for the ball and in that attempt he hit the shooter with the body. Was he late? Yes. Was he intentionally trying to foul? I don't see how any rational college basketball fan could say "yes."


The SIU player came from behind and made contact after the dunk. I think the whistle blew because of the way Singler landed. Intentional fouls are very inconsistently called. I could see that one going either way. Given that, I think it's important to protect the players.

[gadzooks]

And Kyle Singler is the toughest man alive. That was the scariest moment I can remember as a Duke fan.A human player wouldn't have gotten up from that. Fortunately, Kyle Singler is made from space-age polymer materials.

[Cicero]

The referee under the basket didn't indicate that any foul had occurred--I'm not sure if that's because he thought there wasn't a foul, or because he was making sure Kyle was okay/not going to start a fight. Another referee (Jamie Luckie) came tearing in from behind the play, and I think they assessed the foul after discussing it. Coach K was fuming because there was no immediate call, of course.

At the same time, I'm not sure that it was an intentional foul. The best case you could make for an intentional call there is that the SIU player used excessive force, but you often get spectacular collisions when two guys are going full speed and contact (even minor) occurs. Certainly a really scary moment that didn't need to happen--the SIU guy probably should have left Kyle alone.

[TimmySIU]

The thing is - it was stupid on the part of Boyle. He made a bad pass that got intercepted and then tried to make up for it by going for the block. The foul - his 5th - was completely unnecessary - but IMHO was also not intentional and was no where close to flagrant.

For some reason I felt the need to give my response. You don't have to agree but at least be aware that there are people out here who thought that was a terrible call.

[-jk]

You don't have to agree but at least be aware that there are people out here who thought that was a terrible call.

Believe me, we're aware.

-jk

[sagegrouse]

Hah! I just caught Lavin's postgame thoughts on Duke and he mentioned their lack of a post presence on either side of the ball. He must have missed a good game tonight!

Lavin is one of these guys that prepares his remarks BEFORE the game so he won't stumble over the words. Lets see: "Duke lacks a post presence to compete against the best teams in the country and return to the Final Four." A good idea, if you can't speak contemporaneously -- but, of course, at times you look like an idiot.

sagegrouse

[loran16]

You know, Timmy, i agree...that should NOT have been an intentional foul.

At most it was a shove, and it looked like a desperate stupid attempt to get the ball.

But it should have been a foul (fouling him out).

Ultimately, i think him fouling out along with your other big guy was what killed you. But you're right, i disagree with that call, especially since it wasn't made right away but after outrage by the duke bench.

[Acymetric]

The referee under the basket didn't indicate that any foul had occurred--I'm not sure if that's because he thought there wasn't a foul, or because he was making sure Kyle was okay/not going to start a fight. Another referee (Jamie Luckie) came tearing in from behind the play, and I think they assessed the foul after discussing it. Coach K was fuming because there was no immediate call, of course.

At the same time, I'm not sure that it was an intentional foul. The best case you could make for an intentional call there is that the SIU player used excessive force, but you often get spectacular collisions when two guys are going full speed and contact (even minor) occurs. Certainly a really scary moment that didn't need to happen--the SIU guy probably should have left Kyle alone.

I honestly think flagrant might have been a more appropriate call. I'm not a rules scholar, so someone call me out if I'm wrong, but I think flagrant fouls deal only with the force/result of the foul, not intent. So while it certainly wasn't intentional, it is the responsibility of the player to keep in mind the safety of the players around him. Even a little push when you're in mid-air like that can have a dangerous result. Something has to be called, because if that is permitted, eventually there will be an injury.

I don't think the guy was trying to make a dirty play, but he was trying to make a physical play, and if you're going to play physical you have to make sure nothing you do is dangerous. That play was (clearly) dangerous.

[slower]

The thing is - it was stupid on the part of Boyle. He made a bad pass that got intercepted and then tried to make up for it by going for the block. The foul - his 5th - was completely unnecessary - but IMHO was also not intentional and was no where close to flagrant.

For some reason I felt the need to give my response. You don't have to agree but at least be aware that there are people out here who thought that was a terrible call.

If you all hadn't been woofing about the "Saluki Hangover" and your team wasn't mugging us the whole game, we wouldn't be quite as irritated.

But in light of those two facts, we really don't CARE whether you thought it was a terrible call. And Coach K obviously doesn't, either.

There's no earthly reason why an All-American like Singler should have his season - or possibly his career - ended by some hack who's just "playing physical". Fortunately, Singler is no mere mortal.

[diveonthefloor]

Looked to me like SIU player had no chance of stopping Singler....pushed him hard in the back after the dunk driving him into the goal support...lots of potential for injury.

I have no argument with the intentional foul call.

[jacone21]

Believe me, we're aware.

-jk

Just like we're aware that a Duke player can get pounded into the crowd on a breakaway, and somehow the discussion will turn into how bad a person Coach K is for getting mad about it. It's the nature of the strange basketball season alternate reality in which we live.

[TimmySIU]

Since you guys aren't used to having them, let me explain something...

Boyle is a slow, plodding, oversized white boy. Any contact on that play was due to lack of athleticism, not trying to foul hard. :)

[sagegrouse]

Without getting into a long winded argument on it, it was a close call and could have gone either way. One arm went for the ball; one arm was firmly planted in the lower back.

Oddly, I think it was the trail official that made the call. I couldn't tell who had the better angle, though. Had the game been less physical overall, they may have let it go.

-jk

It was a scarily dangerous play in a game that was essentially decided. I think the refs were emphasizing that they didn't want to see any more rough play or any injuries.

sagegrouse

[wisteria]

It's really pointless to argue about one call now. I'm just glad that we got lucky and that Singler is an IRON MAN.

[slower]

Since you guys aren't used to having them, let me explain something...

Boyle is a slow, plodding, oversized white boy. Any contact on that play was due to lack of athleticism, not trying to foul hard. :)

Perhaps the "slow, plodding, oversized white boy" will remember not to do it again. Think of it as negative reinforcement.

[UncleBill]

If you all hadn't been woofing about the "Saluki Hangover" and your team wasn't mugging us the whole game, we wouldn't be quite as irritated.There was only one real woofer, and it wasn't this guy.

[slower]

There was only one real woofer, and it wasn't this guy.

But, if so, that one guy did the woofing of many men! :)

Anyway, just glad that Singler is okay.

[KandG]

Since you guys aren't used to having them, let me explain something...

Boyle is a slow, plodding, oversized white boy. Any contact on that play was due to lack of athleticism, not trying to foul hard. :)


I actually completely agree with this assessment of the foul...it looked really bad because of the nature of the collision between the players and the way Kyle landed.

But when I saw the replay, my feeling was that it happened the way it did because an unathletic guy tried to make an athletic play -- it would have been a questionable decision as it stood to try and block the shot if it had been a Tracy McGrady type player with speed and hops...but it was a really horrible decision on the part of the SIU player.

I don't recall seeing an arm in the back that took Kyle down, but if that was the case, I wouldn't be surprised if that was because of the way the SIU player was just flailing as he was making contact with Kyle.

[Lord Ash]

Just thought some folks might enjoy this rather silly play-by-play, flow of consciousness blog that a Duke guy maintains...

Here it is (http://theultimatelord.blogspot.com/)

[Kedsy]

The thing is - it was stupid on the part of Boyle. He made a bad pass that got intercepted and then tried to make up for it by going for the block. The foul - his 5th - was completely unnecessary - but IMHO was also not intentional and was no where close to flagrant.

For some reason I felt the need to give my response. You don't have to agree but at least be aware that there are people out here who thought that was a terrible call.

The intentional foul rule is a murky rule which, at best, is inconsistently applied. Personally I think it should be eliminated from the rule book.

That said, if Boyle had been thinking (which I believe he clearly wasn't) he would have known (a) he had absolutely no chance to stop the basket (whether he went for the ball or not); (b) if he tried to stop the basket he'd have a pretty good chance of injuring Singler. If this were a legal matter, combining those two ideas with the fact that he went ahead and tried to stop the basket anyway and did in fact come very close to injuring Singler, it would probably qualify as "intent." While I'm not suggesting the refs know anything about law, something similar to this line of reasoning may explain the call.

[JDev]

I wouldn't characterize the foul as dirty or intentional. I think flagrant is a more appropriate word. From the looks of Singler's landing there was clear potential for injury. I think the officials almost have to make that call when the collision and result are that violent. What surprised me is the lead official who didn't seem like he was going to make any call at all.

[mapei]

I don't have a problem with the intentional foul call. The SIU guy knew he was beaten badly and had no chance for a block. He went ahead and made a desperate play anyway, flailing at the ball with his right hand and shoving Singler in the back with his flexed left forearm while Singler was in the air. He clearly intended to foul and did so in a situation where someone could get hurt. I guess you could split hairs and say it was "only" reckless disregard for the consequences of the contact he knew he was making with no chance of a legitimate block rather than a deliberate intent to cause the result that happened.

But either way a foul should have been called, and probably an intentional or flagrant.

Now sometimes that sort of thing isn't called, especially if the consequence doesn't result in a bad crash like tonight's did. Officials use their discretion. They don't call intentional fouls on guards during end-of-game situations when everyone knows the fouls are intentional. But this one absolutely was both intentional and flagrant, if not excessively so, and had a bad result that the kid should have known to avoid. The official was well within the rule book in calling it.

[TimmySIU]

While I agree and I promise I'm done after this post - there was no whistle on that play at all until the Duke bench erupted. The trail official is the one who blew the whistle. Anyone who has ever officiated knows that if the trail official is blowing the whistle and the other two aren't - he either doesn't have faith in the other two guys - or he's wrong. Then he tacks on the intentional foul call - when no one else blew a whistle for any kind of foul...

That's not what determined the outcome of the game. Good win. Hope to see you in the NCAA tournament. Try the veal...

[JDev]

While I agree and I promise I'm done after this post - there was no whistle on that play at all until the Duke bench erupted. The trail official is the one who blew the whistle. Anyone who has ever officiated knows that if the trail official is blowing the whistle and the other two aren't - he either doesn't have faith in the other two guys - or he's wrong. Then he tacks on the intentional foul call - when no one else blew a whistle for any kind of foul...

That's not what determined the outcome of the game. Good win. Hope to see you in the NCAA tournament. Try the veal...

Are you contending no foul of any kind should have been called? My contention would be the lead official would have absolutely blown that with a no-call and the trail official saved him

[TimmySIU]

I thought it was a foul. A stupid foul. But not even in the same hemisphere as an intentional foul.

Other than that play and the one where the guy comes flying in from out of bounds and hits two of our guys to tip a ball with no call - I thought the officiating was very good.

[Acymetric]

Are you contending no foul of any kind should have been called? My contention would be the lead official would have absolutely blown that with a no-call and the trail official saved his I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this..

Someone else mentioned that the first official may have been immediately concerned with checking on Singler or something, too worried about that to make the call. I'm not really sure, but that seems possible. If they had both come straight down on their feet and landed fine I think a no-call would have been acceptable because the contact was inconsequential. Since the contact did cause Singler to end up in a dangerous situation, there has to be some call, and in my opinion a case could be made for either flagrant or intentional. I don't have much against the kid, it was a reckless/dangerous play, but not a malicious one. Just didn't think.

[JDev]

I thought it was a foul. A stupid foul. But not even in the same hemisphere as an intentional foul.

Other than that play and the one where the guy comes flying in from out of bounds and hits two of our guys to tip a ball with no call - I thought the officiating was very good.

Fair enough. This is probably one of those things where you opinion depends on which team you root for! Hope you guys have a great season.

[RelativeWays]

You know what, it was an ugly foul, but I'm going to give Boyle the benefit of the doubt. He tried hard to make a play to stop Singler from scoring and the results weren't pretty, and that happens. Every poster here should know exactly what the other side feels like, it wasn't even quite two years ago.

[JDev]

Someone else mentioned that the first official may have been immediately concerned with checking on Singler or something, too worried about that to make the call. I'm not really sure, but that seems possible. If they had both come straight down on their feet and landed fine I think a no-call would have been acceptable because the contact was inconsequential. Since the contact did cause Singler to end up in a dangerous situation, there has to be some call, and in my opinion a case could be made for either flagrant or intentional. I don't have much against the kid, it was a reckless/dangerous play, but not a malicious one. Just didn't think.

Yeah, I think that is accurate. As I said in an earlier post, intentional might not be the best adjective. I think flagrant is more appropriate. He really did not have much of a chance of a block there, and seemingly put a player in danger, so some call has to be made.

[Acymetric]

You know what, it was an ugly foul, but I'm going to give Boyle the benefit of the doubt. He tried hard to make a play to stop Singler from scoring and the results weren't pretty, and that happens. Every poster here should know exactly what the other side feels like, it wasn't even quite two years ago.

Thats a good point, I hadn't even thought to connect those two plays. Mostly I'm just glad that nobody lost their cool and escalated the situation after Singler went down, and that Singler looked to be fine. Would have been crushing to see him get injured.

[trinity92]

The Duke hangover will have quite an effect on SIU their next game. Game played like an early round NCAA game where the mid-major stays with Duke for the first half then wilts in the second.

Would be nice if the woofer came here to take what's coming, but I don't expect he'll have the guts.

Great game from center court at the Garden.

Go Duke!

I stopped Brian Davis as he was walking by-- "Hey Brian . . . You Rock!!" He was classy and the younguns around me were asking me "who was that?" I was patient and explained.

Go Duke!!!

[ACCBBallFan]

Actually the way UCLA plays perimeter oriented, if SIU bigs can stay out of foul trouble, they have a decent shot at upsetting UCLA, with neither team scoirng in the 60's.

I would expect Mullins plays better than he did vs. Duke and Dillard has to play well vs Collison/Holiday too. Fay was very ompressive.

Should be pretty much the same story, competitive until 2 of their only 3 big guys foul out. So if that does not happen could be a close game

[JBDuke]

I thought it was a foul. A stupid foul. But not even in the same hemisphere as an intentional foul.

Other than that play and the one where the guy comes flying in from out of bounds and hits two of our guys to tip a ball with no call - I thought the officiating was very good.

Here's the definition of an intentional foul, from the official NCAA rulebook:


An intentional foul shall be a personal foul that, on the basis of an official’s observation of the act, is not a legitimate attempt to directly play the ball or a player. Determination of whether a personal foul is intentional shall not be based on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
a. Fouling a player who is away from the ball and not directly involved with the play.
b. Contact with a player making a throw-in.
c. Holding or pushing an opponent in order to stop the game clock.
d. Pushing a player from behind to prevent a score.
e. Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.

Under the provision of clause "e", I think calling an intentional foul on Boyle was reasonable, but I agree that it is an arguable point.

[UncleBill]

To be dramatic, if Singler had died it may have been Manslaughter rather than Murder in the First.

[dukeENG2003]

You know what, it was an ugly foul, but I'm going to give Boyle the benefit of the doubt. He tried hard to make a play to stop Singler from scoring and the results weren't pretty, and that happens. Every poster here should know exactly what the other side feels like, it wasn't even quite two years ago.

A flagrant was the right call. Excessive contact, just like the play two years ago that you referenced. There was nothing malicious, but it did qualify as excessive contact IMO.

[Lulu]

I thought it was a foul. A stupid foul. But not even in the same hemisphere as an intentional foul.

Other than that play and the one where the guy comes flying in from out of bounds and hits two of our guys to tip a ball with no call - I thought the officiating was very good.

I hate to drag this out, but seeing as I actually watched the game with 2 friends who went to SIU I think we were all in a fairly neutral state of mind. We (including my SIU friends) all agreed that the call was probably made because Boyle had no chance of stopping the score; he was too late. Although we didn't make this particular analogy last night, I'm thinking perhaps like a slightly late hit on a quarterback, when a guy knows he's not going to get there quite in time but lets himself fly anyway.

It was really bad to have had so much lower body contact when a guy is in the air. Maybe "recklessness" had something to do with it.

[Lulu]

OK. I think I retract my previous comment. After watching that play from my recording a few times I think it was all about the shove in the back with the offhand arm. That's what sent Singler out of control and it was intentional and unnecessary.

Also, unlike others have said, I didn't notice Coach K being too upset or pissed or anything during the handshakes. He looked pretty normal. I think he just wasn't smiling or anything because he was reacting, echoing, or otherwise trying to respond appropriately to to the expressions of the SIU players, who were looking very down and dejected. I think it was just natural.

[RelativeWays]

A flagrant was the right call. Excessive contact, just like the play two years ago that you referenced. There was nothing malicious, but it did qualify as excessive contact IMO.


I'm approaching this from the standpoint that this SIU fan wants to defend the integrity of his program when others suggest that they may be dirty or thugs or whatever, I don't no SIU that well and Deron Washington doesn't play for them so they can't be too bad. I think you could call the foul intentional, the intent may not have been malicious. I think Geralds foul on beaker was intentional, he wanted to stop him from dunking, and he knew he would foul him. He didn't know that Beaker would be stripped from behind and go up with no ball.
I think the SIU guy probably did have his arm behind single to force him out before he could dunk, he had no idea that Singler would crash so spectacularly, yikes. Kyle seems okay and I'll give SIU a pass.

[MChambers]

Looked to me like SIU player had no chance of stopping Singler....pushed him hard in the back after the dunk driving him into the goal support...lots of potential for injury.

I have no argument with the intentional foul call.

If Boyle doesn't shove him in the back, it's not an intentional foul. But he did shove him in the back. That's simply not a legitimate attempt to make a defensive play. Add to the fact that it's while Singler is in the air on a fast break layup and you could add flagrant to it, as well.

[slower]

I watched the foul again and noticed that, after he makes his first free throw, Singler looks back at the SIU bench and gives them a big "FU" smile.

He is getting awfully close to Laettner in swagger.

Now, officially, my favorite Duke player ever (and not just because of the smile).

[davekay1971]

Hah! I just caught Lavin's postgame thoughts on Duke and he mentioned their lack of a post presence on either side of the ball. He must have missed a good game tonight!

However, I found Lavin's fake-bake quite impressive. It was hard to pay attention to the emptiness of his points when I was overwhelmed by the golden glow eminating from my tv.

[Matches]

Agreed about K postgame - he was definitely not pleased. I know it's dangerous to read too much into body language, but c'mon - we've all seen K do the postgame handshake hundreds of times. The way he looked last night was different than the way he's looked the other hundreds of times.

I thought the Singler foul looked worse than it really was. I don't think Boyle was trying to hurt him. Damn that was scary, though. Glad Kyle is okay.

[gw67]

I won’t have the time to read all the previous posts until tonight so I apologize if some of my observations have been beaten to death.

• It was the first time I saw the Devils play this year and I like the potential for the team. I never had a real concern about last night’s game. The Salukis play a physical brand of defense and it was clear early that the refs were calling it close. Further, unlike many other mid-majors, it didn’t appear that they had a number of three point shooters. Lastly, it appeared that they had decent guard play and some effective big men (Evans appears to be a star in the making) but they didn’t have any wings who could play with Henderson. I figured that it was a matter of time before Coach K would exploit that weakness (I figured it would be on drives not 3-pointers).
• The three youngsters who play the middle for the Devils are just fine, IMO. Zoubek and Thomas will hold their own against most inside players and are nice compliments to the perimeter play. I can see why folks like Plumlee. He runs the court well and is active on the boards. Any of the three would be welcomed in College Park.
• Two weak areas in Henderson’s game last year were outside shooting and free throw shooting. If last night’s game is any indication, he has improved in both areas and is a threat from the outside. Now all we need is a guard who gets him the ball when he is open.
• Scheyer and Singler are the two best players on the Devils. They are also the only two starters who make an effort to look for others.
• Smith is a very good offensive player but Coach Knight was on the mark when he stated that Paulus would get the team into their offense when he came in. I realize that I am in the distinct minority on this board but I think the offense runs better with Paulus on the floor. He is always looking for the pass and I had no problem with his two passes to the paying customers. Scheyer, Singler, Henderson and Smith need to be set up on the perimeter for open shots. One-on-one play by these players may look great but this needs to be complimented by open jump shots.
• The team defense was OK. A better shooting team would have scored more points as the Salukis had several close in or open shots that were missed.
• Other than a couple of bricks at the end of the game, the foul shooting was exceptional.
• Coach Knight was a terrific color man. He is a bright, articulate man who obviously knows basketball and is not afraid to be a little different.
• The Salukis will likely do well in the MVC. IMO, they would finish near the bottom of the ACC.

gw67

[davekay1971]

A flagrant was the right call. Excessive contact, just like the play two years ago that you referenced. There was nothing malicious, but it did qualify as excessive contact IMO.

Hendu's found may not have been malicious, but as a malicious Tarheel-hater I have the clip saved on my youtube favorites to watch when I'm feeling particularly evil...

Or, as a fellow Dukie said in a perfect Ahnold impression when the camera showed Montross bleeding in a Duke-UNC game from days gone by, "If it bleeds, we can kill it."

[Lulu]

You know what, it was an ugly foul, but I'm going to give Boyle the benefit of the doubt. He tried hard to make a play to stop Singler from scoring and the results weren't pretty, and that happens. Every poster here should know exactly what the other side feels like, it wasn't even quite two years ago.

Let's not forget that everyone was calling for Henderson's suspension. I don't think anyone here has said anything about suspending Boyle. It was perhaps careless, reckless, and stupid, but no one has suggested he deserved suspension. People were basically accusing Henderson as though he had delivered a haymaker.

I was over at TSN and Decourcy included this play in one of his thoughts. He actually blames coaches for what he says is a common attitude that a foul MUST be committed on open breaks, no matter what. He actually seems to suggest that he believes suspensions are indeed in order for such plays. I'm just the messenger:
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=488763

This play deserves a separate thread. Also, can we start one about Lavin's tan? If you look closely I think he was darker than Elmore...

[MChambers]

Thats a good point, I hadn't even thought to connect those two plays. Mostly I'm just glad that nobody lost their cool and escalated the situation after Singler went down, and that Singler looked to be fine. Would have been crushing to see him get injured.

It is a good point, but Henderson came off a lot worse. He was suspended for the next game, which was ridiculous.

[bird]

I thought Coach Knight did a tremendous job last night. It was a shock of cold water when the UCLA game started.

[ACCBBallFan]

GW, I agree with your observations. On the last, not sure exactly where but SIU would finish, but agree it would be in the bottom half of the ACC. I am just not sure at this point how much separation there may be in teams 7-12 or in SIU. Lack of size may hurt them, with only three guys to share PF/C.

So far all the ACC teams are winning, but FSU has had a couple of close games last night it was with Stetson, previously Jacksonville and LaSalle, so looks like they play to the level of their competition.

Not sure yet who will emerge among BC, FSU, GA Tech, MD, NC State and UVA who I think may be #12. GA tech starts off tomorrow vs. Mercer who has already upset a couple SEC treams. Clinch is ineleigble again, so no continuity in that program last several years other than guys not being available YTY. Game is at Mercer which until last year away games were a real weakness of GA Tech.

BC has been a little better than I expected, probably go with BC, MD and NC State 7-9 and Ga Tech, FSU and UVA 10-12, with SIU in the 9-10 range if they were in the ACC.

[greybeard]

This was a coaching issue. That team was playing on the rougher side of physical all game. The only reason you didn't hear about it was the General was commenting on the game. He invented that kind of defense/intimidation.

The bigs on that team didn't all foul out for nothing. The play made by 22 I think, when Singler took it all the way and ended up on his back with a no call, was also a foul and a dangerous one, although not nearly as bad as the one that was called dangerous and deliberate and was both. Knight didn't mention the no-call because he didn't like Singler's play, thought Singler exposed his team to a runout and would not stand for such a play if he was the coach. Probably would have pulled Singler from the game, literally by the scruff of the neck. I enjoyed listening to Knight but his shall we say biases came through. All that talk about dumbing down the game to get to the foul line reminded me why I hated watching Indianna when he coached.

That kid who put Singler down didn't come close to getting ball and very forcefully, way too forcefully, tangled with both Singler's arms throwing him backwards. He was told, as were the other SI bigs, Singler does not get to the basket. He attacks the basket, he pays. This is not basketball, except in Bobby Knight's world. How that was called a good block boggles my mind. The missed call lead to the play late in the game. This is a coaching issue, and the refs need to recognize it when it is happening.

Look, SI cannot compete with higher level clubs without putting the wood to people. It has some big bodies and even those who aren't so big will get in your grill at very inopportune times in terms of safety, to you know, get the better athletes thiniking. Most of the time they do it borderline and avoid calls, only because refs are concerned for looking like they are gamers for the better team, and in Duke's case, we have the added factor, correct?

I hate coaching that plays along this edge. You ask that kid why he made that play on Singler from behind and he will tell you that the bigs were told before the game that Singler does not get to the rim, period. He goes down. That was SI's only chance. The refs should have put a stop to such plays earlier. How? Calling each and every one of these body shoves what it is, a foul. Oh, and also letting the coach who is responsible know that it has to stop.

[whereinthehellami]

My observations from TV. It looked to me like Coach K tried to talk to Coach Lowery before the game and Lowery kinda of brushed Coach K aside. I think the Saluki players feed off their Coach who seemingly endorses a hard physical play and that started to rub Coach K the wrong way when his player's safety were at hand. Not only did Coach k not say anything to Lowery or his players after the game, he shot them each lightning bolts when he vigorously shook their hands.

I wonder how many people who are saying that the Boyle hard foul on singler is legit, have played organized ball. I'm suprised that the refs didn't have to seperate players. When a guy is ahead of you and going up for a dunk you try to block the ball at an angle, not straight on. In my mind Boyle knew that he had no chance but that his Coach's questionable mantra of playing hard (at all costs) and to the whistle almost cost Singler his basketball season and maybe career. It was that serious and that reckless. If I'm Singler or a teammate of his I'm in Boyle's face after that. Props to the Duke player's for amazing restraint and for coach K who has let it go (despite the post game icing).

[jv001]

My observations from TV. It looked to me like Coach K tried to talk to Coach Lowery before the game and Lowery kinda of brushed Coach K aside. I think the Saluki players feed off their Coach who seemingly endorses a hard physical play and that started to rub Coach K the wrong way when his player's safety were at hand. Not only did Coach k not say anything to Lowery or his players after the game, he shot them each lightning bolts when he vigorously shook their hands.

Great point, I had forgotten the pregame handshake. You are correct Coach Lowery did indeed brush off Coach K. I guess he was sending a message to his players who did play a physical game(little over the line). Well our foul shooting made them pay for that style of play. Next play and Go Duke!

[elvis14]

I really enjoyed that game last night. Particularly after the Saluki's invaded our board to pimp their team. Here's a few thoughts:


Nothing like a good blow out after fans come around woofing
What a nice team effort with lots of guys contributing
Zoubek dominated their big men, that was just sweet
Gerald played great. The cool thing was that he let it come to him in the flow of the offense
Singler is tough as iron
I was disappointed in Nolan's play on offense. We should have had him starting all last year and working on running the team. He's learning on the job
There was talk on here about them wearing us down and being deep. I said point blank that they wouldn't wear us down and they didn't. In fact we wore them down to nothing.
We were told that we would get to see a player display a great BB IQ and play the game the way it ought to be played. And we did see just that, from Jon Scheyer
We saw some really tough man to man defense....from our own team, as exepcted
Someone actually stated that sending us to the free throw line again and again would work in the Saluki's favor (something about us getting frustrated). Please, we just hit our freebies and kept coming at you all night with player after player.
Looks like it was Email's turn to play so Marty sat. I think that we will see one of these 2 guys get real minutes each game but not both (the minutes just are not there)
Someone want to tell me how it wasn't a foul when that guy poked Nolan in the eye?
As many free throws as we shot it could have been many more if they called the hand checking. Didn't appreciate them hitting us with a few touch fouls while allowing the Saluki's to hand check.
I didn't care much for the hard foul on Kyle considering the game was a blow out. Loved the way Kyle handled it
There's a difference between tough physical defense and dirty, chippy play
I liked the way K adjusted the offense at half time to take advantage of our size inside. This lead to open 3's, and lots of fouls on over matched SIU bigs
UCLA might have been slightly overrated. Duke drops in the polls after beating URI on a night where they got super hot yet UCLA struggles against Miami of Ohio (I think) and they stay at #4. What??

I gotta find a way to stay off this board and get some work done today!

[Carlos]

Here's the definition of an intentional foul, from the official NCAA rulebook:


An intentional foul shall be a personal foul that, on the basis of an official’s observation of the act, is not a legitimate attempt to directly play the ball or a player. Determination of whether a personal foul is intentional shall not be based on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
a. Fouling a player who is away from the ball and not directly involved with the play.
b. Contact with a player making a throw-in.
c. Holding or pushing an opponent in order to stop the game clock.
d. Pushing a player from behind to prevent a score.
e. Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.

Under the provision of clause "e", I think calling an intentional foul on Boyle was reasonable, but I agree that it is an arguable point.

Thank you for posting that. Too often people get caught up in the idea that as long as you make a play for the ball everything else is OK. It's like if Boyle had stuck a shank into Cingular's kidney on the play it would be OK as long as he made a play for the ball with his other hand.

I just saw the replay on SportsCenter and it's clear that the very first contact that Boyle made with Kyle was to place his left forearm into the small of Kyle's back while Kyle was in the air. Given that Boyle was running full speed from halfcourt this action is what resulted in Cingular getting off balance.

So it's not just e from above that applies to this play, it's also d as well.

[Acymetric]

Someone want to tell me how it wasn't a foul when that guy poked Nolan in the eye?


I wondered the same thing. Even if the ref didn't happen, wouldn't you assume the SI player did it and call the foul? Did they think Nolan did it to himself?

[detule]

I hate coaching that plays along this edge. You ask that kid why he made that play on Singler from behind and he will tell you that the bigs were told before the game that Singler does not get to the rim, period. He goes down.

Ok this is just ridiculous. First, these things you are stating as matter of fact - must be pure speculation.

I have no issues whatsoever with a team that plays physical brand of basketball. People, it is a contact sport! Think about it personal foul, flagrant foul, and then ejection (and in rare cases - some close to home - bypass straight to ejection.) To me, that seems to be system that TOLERATES-while-sanctioning physical play.

It is a choice - and a matter of strategy - play physical, gain some mental advantage of your opponent while allowing them to make a living at the line. This, last time I checked is not illegal in the world basketball, not even frowned upon.

I also agree with the call on Boyle. Having said that, let me just say - that kind of stupid play could have been made by players on many a team. The kid (Boyle) was going for the ball - the excessive contact in the lower back came from his inability to control his body - putting it in language favored by many on this board - not being athletic enough. The result - a very serious foul that could have had grave repercussions - hence the call. But in the end, I really doubt this was a direct consequence of - "Singler goes down" team orders.

I also noticed K being very curt in the post game hand-shakes. One of the things I attribute this to was IMO what seemed like SIU's Coach asking for a T on Coach K for his reaction after Boyle's foul (at least this is what I got from a quick shot of their coach talking to the refs and hand gesturing right after the whistle.) I understand K's frustration - as a coach you should pull your player aside and tell him "You should be wearing Duke blue after that 7pt play" rather than being ticked off that the opposing team's coach might have influenced the Ref's decision.

Just my 2c.

[DukeDevilDeb]

...is more like recovering from a mugging.

And Kyle Singler is the toughest man alive. That was the scariest moment I can remember as a Duke fan.

I had 2 seconds of worry with Kyle; then he jumped up and smiled. The worst and scariest moment for Duke fans was Duhon's senior year when he decided to tackle a camera stand or something tall and immobile during a Maryland game... they practically carried him off, and I thought he might be paralzed. Several minutes later, he walked back onto the sideline, past the coaches, and put himself back in the game. I remember seeing him a day or two later, and he was so sore he could hardly sit down.

Now THAT was scary.

[roywhite]

After seeing Singler go down and watching several replays, I'm not inclined to rationalize the foul by the Saluki player. Kyle Singler could have been seriously hurt; he could have broken a vertebrae, he could have broken an arm, and he could have suffered a concussion. That fall was about as bad as you see during the course of a season.

The dangerous situation was a direct result of a Saluki player making contact on a play that he had no realistic chance of stopping. Shame on him, and shame on the SIU coaching staff if they encourage that sort of play.

Based on Coach K's reaction to that play and others, (fully justified IMO), I doubt we'll soon see the Salukis get an invitation for an early season game in Cameron.

[dukestheheat]

I watched the foul again and noticed that, after he makes his first free throw, Singler looks back at the SIU bench and gives them a big "FU" smile.

He is getting awfully close to Laettner in swagger.

Now, officially, my favorite Duke player ever (and not just because of the smile).

...I see what you mean by swagger and some equation to Laettner, but I do disagree slightly and here's why:

I saw Laettner as steely and a proactive smack talker; I do not see Singler this way and I may be wrong, but I think of him as a quiet warrior. Both men have the warrior quality, but I see Singler as more reactive in that for some reason. Laettner wanted to kill you and he wanted to tell you that you were about to die; Singler handles it differently, I think.

And, we went to the free throw line last night 47 times! This is a staggering amount of time at the line, and we went there for one reason: the other team put us there. So when the other team is fouling that much, there is going to be some animosity going on down on the floor. I think that our opponent came in to push Duke around, to brand this game for them as 'physical'. Plus, I did notice K seeming a little peeved at the Saluki team/staff after the game, and this had to have come out during the course of the game from K.

So, it may bring it out of Kyle, kinda like a cool dog getting gnarly after you repeatedly whack him.

anyways, a great Duke win and I loved the emergence of G and I do agree with you about Singler having swagger.

dth.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I know this is getting a bit tired, but I just watched the replay again. The two things about Boyle's foul that are troubling to me:

1) He basically ran through Kyle from behind. He didn't try to miss Kyle with his body and block from the side or anything. It looked to me like he knew he was going to make substantial contact which is why he put his arm in Kyle's back.

2) After the foul, he showed absolutely no concern for what had just happened. He gave a quick stare at Kyle on the floor and walked away with body language that seemed to say, "Mission accomplished. No problem here."

[DawgStyle]

I really enjoyed that game last night. Particularly after the Saluki's invaded our board to pimp their team. Here's a few thoughts:


Nothing like a good blow out after fans come around woofing
What a nice team effort with lots of guys contributing
Zoubek dominated their big men, that was just sweet
Gerald played great. The cool thing was that he let it come to him in the flow of the offense
Singler is tough as iron
I was disappointed in Nolan's play on offense. We should have had him starting all last year and working on running the team. He's learning on the job
There was talk on here about them wearing us down and being deep. I said point blank that they wouldn't wear us down and they didn't. In fact we wore them down to nothing.
We were told that we would get to see a player display a great BB IQ and play the game the way it ought to be played. And we did see just that, from Jon Scheyer
We saw some really tough man to man defense....from our own team, as exepcted
Someone actually stated that sending us to the free throw line again and again would work in the Saluki's favor (something about us getting frustrated). Please, we just hit our freebies and kept coming at you all night with player after player.
Looks like it was Email's turn to play so Marty sat. I think that we will see one of these 2 guys get real minutes each game but not both (the minutes just are not there)
Someone want to tell me how it wasn't a foul when that guy poked Nolan in the eye?
As many free throws as we shot it could have been many more if they called the hand checking. Didn't appreciate them hitting us with a few touch fouls while allowing the Saluki's to hand check.
I didn't care much for the hard foul on Kyle considering the game was a blow out. Loved the way Kyle handled it
There's a difference between tough physical defense and dirty, chippy play
I liked the way K adjusted the offense at half time to take advantage of our size inside. This lead to open 3's, and lots of fouls on over matched SIU bigs
UCLA might have been slightly overrated. Duke drops in the polls after beating URI on a night where they got super hot yet UCLA struggles against Miami of Ohio (I think) and they stay at #4. What??

I gotta find a way to stay off this board and get some work done today!

1) only one guy was truly "pimping our team." Take it out on ChicagoSaluki, or what ever his name was. He did not and does not represent all Saluki fans. 99% of us have been respectful, don't let one guy stereotype all of us. We've been more than fair to you, you do the same.

2) Boyle, while a hard foul, and a case could be made for an intentional, was not trying to hurt your guy. Anyone thinking along those lines is completely bias and needs to step away from the key board. I agree a foul should have been called, but he wasn't trying to hurt your guy.

3) Congrats on the win. As I said in previous post, I expected you to win by 10 plus points. You did. Not a big shocker considering the youth of our team. They will get better. You have to remember SIU is a team with over 60% Freshman and 75% Sophomore and Freshman. In a few years this team will be very, very good.

4) Hopefully we meet again soon. Good luck this year.

[DawgStyle]

one last thing about the rough play. It was no worse than what you guys will see in conference play or the NCAA tourney. The only reason it's a point of discussion is because it was a focal point BEFORE the game on this board.

If this type of play bothered you tonight, your gonna have a long season as fans during your conference games.

[Acymetric]

2) Boyle, while a hard foul, and a case could be made for an intentional, was not trying to hurt your guy. Anyone thinking along those lines is completely bias and needs to step away from the key board. I agree a foul should have been called, but he wasn't trying to hurt your guy.


He may not have been trying to hurt Singler, but he certainly didn't try not to hurt him. And I hold him responsible for that.

[slower]

I had 2 seconds of worry with Kyle; then he jumped up and smiled. The worst and scariest moment for Duke fans was Duhon's senior year when he decided to tackle a camera stand or something tall and immobile during a Maryland game... they practically carried him off, and I thought he might be paralzed. Several minutes later, he walked back onto the sideline, past the coaches, and put himself back in the game. I remember seeing him a day or two later, and he was so sore he could hardly sit down.

Now THAT was scary.

In the second or two before The Man of Iron popped back up, that was as scary a moment/fall as I can recall. The fact that he DID get back up doesn't lessen the injury potential of his fall. Your opinion is your opinion and my opinion is my opinion. Glad that they BOTH made a full recovery.

As a side note (and this should bring ACC oldtimers out of the woodwork), does anybody remember how fast David Thompson was moving when he fell over Phil Spence's back? I don't recall that he was moving downcourt at full speed, as Singler was.

You can say that any given fall (like Zeller's) was worse, BECAUSE of the end result, but Singler's could have been catastrophic.

[Matches]

I wondered the same thing. Even if the ref didn't happen, wouldn't you assume the SI player did it and call the foul? Did they think Nolan did it to himself?

Daniel Ewing did it. He received a technical foul and will be suspended for one game.

[DawgStyle]

He may not have been trying to hurt Singler, but he certainly didn't try not to hurt him. And I hold him responsible for that.

get over it. This is basketball, not ballet. I've seen harder fouls in a junior high game.

In the heat of the moment of a game, in split second reactions, you don't have time to stop, think, am I gonna hurt this guy. You just react. Boyle was trying to make a play to help his team, he fouled the guy, it was called, why is this such a big deal.

Now if he had punched Singler in the face, or kicked him in the balls, I'd have a problem with it. That would be pre-meditated. This was simply a reactionary play that ended up looking worse than it was due to the way Singler landed.

[slower]

...I see what you mean by swagger and some equation to Laettner, but I do disagree slightly and here's why:

I saw Laettner as steely and a proactive smack talker; I do not see Singler this way and I may be wrong, but I think of him as a quiet warrior. Both men have the warrior quality, but I see Singler as more reactive in that for some reason. Laettner wanted to kill you and he wanted to tell you that you were about to die; Singler handles it differently, I think.

And, we went to the free throw line last night 47 times! This is a staggering amount of time at the line, and we went there for one reason: the other team put us there. So when the other team is fouling that much, there is going to be some animosity going on down on the floor. I think that our opponent came in to push Duke around, to brand this game for them as 'physical'. Plus, I did notice K seeming a little peeved at the Saluki team/staff after the game, and this had to have come out during the course of the game from K.

So, it may bring it out of Kyle, kinda like a cool dog getting gnarly after you repeatedly whack him.

anyways, a great Duke win and I loved the emergence of G and I do agree with you about Singler having swagger.

dth.

Possibly two sides of the same coin? At any rate, I'll put them BOTH on my all-time Top 5 Duke players.

[roywhite]

get over it. This is basketball, not ballet. I've seen harder fouls in a junior high game.

In the heat of the moment of a game, in split second reactions, you don't have time to stop, think, am I gonna hurt this guy. You just react. Boyle was trying to make a play to help his team, he fouled the guy, it was called, why is this such a big deal.

Now if he had punched Singler in the face, or kicked him in the balls, I'd have a problem with it. That would be pre-meditated. This was simply a reactionary play that ended up looking worse than it was due to the way Singler landed.

It was serious because of the possibility of serious injury. "The way Singler landed" was very dangerous, and not because of his jump toward the hoop. It was very dangerous because the Saluki player ran into him from behind, put a forearm in his back when Singler was in the air, and Singler crashed to the floor.

It was not a normal play.

[Travis]

Under the provision of clause "e", I think calling an intentional foul on Boyle was reasonable, but I agree that it is an arguable point.

I believe the proper call is the provision of clause 'd', which was put in exactly to discourage the type of foul Boyle made.

The foul does not have to be particularly hard or really intentional, but when a player is going full speed to the rim, once they are in the air the gentlest of pushes from behind can have serious consequences. Even if it requires stretching the definition of intentional. the intentional foul rule includes such situations to strongly discourage defenders from trying to make plays from behind, like the one Boyle made. His foul was dangerous and the intentional foul rule was accurately applied, because one of its purposes is to protect players in exactly Singler's position.

I am just glad Singler popped up.

Travis

[FerryFor50]

get over it. This is basketball, not ballet. I've seen harder fouls in a junior high game.

In the heat of the moment of a game, in split second reactions, you don't have time to stop, think, am I gonna hurt this guy. You just react. Boyle was trying to make a play to help his team, he fouled the guy, it was called, why is this such a big deal.

Now if he had punched Singler in the face, or kicked him in the balls, I'd have a problem with it. That would be pre-meditated. This was simply a reactionary play that ended up looking worse than it was due to the way Singler landed.

I never have understood the mentality of "basketball is a contact sport." It's not.

There are rules in place that dictate that contact should NOT be made. Football is a contact sport. You don't see personal fouls called in football except in cases of excessive and unnecessary contact.

Basketball is a non-contact sport where incidental contact may happen, but suggesting that it's a support where contact is intentionally supposed to happen is the reason why intentional fouls and ejections are in place. Ever see a football player get ejected for tackling someone too hard?

The foul on Singler was intentional and unnecessary, and was a punk move by a team that obviously has been schooled to play like punks.

As for your excuses about why SI is not that good, because they're a "young team," keep in mind that Duke is as young and doesn't need to resort to thuggery to get their message across.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

get over it. This is basketball, not ballet. I've seen harder fouls in a junior high game.

In the heat of the moment of a game, in split second reactions, you don't have time to stop, think, am I gonna hurt this guy. You just react. Boyle was trying to make a play to help his team, he fouled the guy, it was called, why is this such a big deal.

Now if he had punched Singler in the face, or kicked him in the balls, I'd have a problem with it. That would be pre-meditated. This was simply a reactionary play that ended up looking worse than it was due to the way Singler landed.

Sorry but that was not a split-second decision. From looking at the replay, it took Boyle about 4 seconds to get down court. There was plenty of time for him to realize he had no angle on the play. He made a crappy pass, knew he was beat, but he DECIDED to run through Singler anyway. I thought the contact was substantial, especially in light of the fact that Singler was in the air with a lot of forward momentum and no way to control his body upon contact. That's the real danger here and that's where reasonable judgment on the part of Boyle seems to have been missing. I still play plenty of pick-up. Bad passes lead to breakaways all the time. Experience shows that 4 seconds is plenty of time to make a reasonable judgment about whether or not you can make a legit defensive play. IMO, Boyle did not have a legit chance and made a dangerous play on a guy while he was in the air. It was stupid.

[longtimefan]

I certainly am not saying it was the same intent. but it reminded me of the foul pippen did to ferry after the jordan incident. he knew wasn't going to stop the basket.what reason would he continue the play and foul?he would gain nothing from it but his 5th foul and another point for the devils.my guess would be frustration,lack of skill or coaching contributed to it.his fore arm to Singlers back indicated to me that he knew and intended foul him.

[AtlDuke72]

It is always interesting to note the emphasis on flashy play that initially appears on the boards after a win, while the best play often gets ignored. Jon Scheyer had another great game. His defense was outstanding, and his heady play caused the Salukis all kinds of problems. He just plain knows what he is doing out there, and keeps doing it at a very high level of intensity. The kid can flat out play on both ends of the court.

ricks

You hit the nail right on the head! Scheyer is the glue that keeps this team together just about every game. Never flashy but always in the right place making big plays.

Great game for Zoubek too! Hope all of his doubters are starting to realize that missing the summer and injuries really do take time to overcome. There is plenty of room on his band wagon !

[roywhite]

You hit the nail right on the head! Scheyer is the glue that keeps this team together just about every game. Never flashy but always in the right place making big plays.

Great game for Zoubek too! Hope all of his doubters are starting to realize that missing the summer and injuries really do take time to overcome. There is plenty of room on his band wagon !

There were 2 steals by Scheyer that were particularly nice. Both were in the open court: Scheyer anticipated passes like he had radar, stepped in for the steal, and went the other way.

I've seen the comparison before, and I agree that his play is very reminiscent of Jim Spanarkel. Two very smart and versatile players.

[feldspar]

It was certainly made clear who had the better team tonight. Congratulations on the win.

I've been reading this site for the past week but never felt the need to sign up until reading some of the post game commentary - particularly the comments regarding coach K and the intentional foul called on Tony Boyle.

I'm sure many of you will say that I was looking at the game through maroon colored glasses but how could that play have been called as an intentional foul? The kid swung at the ball - and hit the rim with his hand trying to make the block. Watch the play again - and watch what Boyle does. He goes for the ball. Plain and simple. He didn't try to take out the shooter, he went for the ball and in that attempt he hit the shooter with the body. Was he late? Yes. Was he intentionally trying to foul? I don't see how any rational college basketball fan could say "yes."

Just my $.02

"It is an intentional personal foul when, while playing the ball, a player
causes excessive contact with an opponent."

Just because he "goes for the ball" does not absolve him from the excessive contact caused.

If you cause a guy who is 6-8 and 235 to do an awkward backflip off the padding of the basketball hoop base, I'd say there's excessive contact.

That call was a no-brainer.

[DawgStyle]

I never have understood the mentality of "basketball is a contact sport." It's not.

There are rules in place that dictate that contact should NOT be made. Football is a contact sport. You don't see personal fouls called in football except in cases of excessive and unnecessary contact.

Basketball is a non-contact sport where incidental contact may happen, but suggesting that it's a support where contact is intentionally supposed to happen is the reason why intentional fouls and ejections are in place. Ever see a football player get ejected for tackling someone too hard?

The foul on Singler was intentional and unnecessary, and was a punk move by a team that obviously has been schooled to play like punks.

As for your excuses about why SI is not that good, because they're a "young team," keep in mind that Duke is as young and doesn't need to resort to thuggery to get their message across.

Basketball is a contact sport. I'm not sure what games you've been watching, even in the ACC the post battles between bigs could be classified as boxing matches. Duke plays physical as well, and also initiates contact. All teams do. Some more than others, agreed.

That's the nature of the game today. It may never have intended to be like that by Mr. Naismith, but what he intended and what it really is are 2 very different things. Basketball is a contact sport. No it's not football, and shouldn't be. But to act as if very physical play doesn't occur, even by Duke is eye poppingly naive.

I don't appreciate you calling our players "thugs." They aren't. Bob Huggins isn't coaching this team. You won. The last thing people want to hear is you calling the other teams players names, etc. etc. Win with class.

As for the young team comment. You forget schools that don't get McDonald All Americans actually must develop their talent. That's not a slight, but a fact most Duke fans don't have to wait around for. Success for teams like SIU and other mid majors has always been based on senior leadership and experience. The mid majors that do well in the NCAA tourney are always chock full of upper class men. Players that took a little time develop. Being Young may not be an issue for Teams like Duke and UNC, but for 90% of college basketball, it is.

[greybeard]

get over it. This is basketball, not ballet. I've seen harder fouls in a junior high game.

In the heat of the moment of a game, in split second reactions, you don't have time to stop, think, am I gonna hurt this guy. You just react. Boyle was trying to make a play to help his team, he fouled the guy, it was called, why is this such a big deal.

Now if he had punched Singler in the face, or kicked him in the balls, I'd have a problem with it. That would be pre-meditated. This was simply a reactionary play that ended up looking worse than it was due to the way Singler landed.

The guy fouled out on that play. Stop making excuses. He was under orders.

[feldspar]

get over it. This is basketball, not ballet. I've seen harder fouls in a junior high game.

In the heat of the moment of a game, in split second reactions, you don't have time to stop, think, am I gonna hurt this guy. You just react. Boyle was trying to make a play to help his team, he fouled the guy, it was called, why is this such a big deal.

Now if he had punched Singler in the face, or kicked him in the balls, I'd have a problem with it. That would be pre-meditated. This was simply a reactionary play that ended up looking worse than it was due to the way Singler landed.

You obviously don't understand the difference between intentional and flagrant fouls.

[detule]

I never have understood the mentality of "basketball is a contact sport." It's not.

This is one of the few times when I need not insert an "IMO" before I qualify your statement. You are wrong - it is.



There are rules in place that dictate that contact should NOT be made.


No, there are rules that give an advantage to the other team when a certain type of contact is made. I do not see this rule as a statement that "contact should not be made."



Football is a contact sport. You don't see personal fouls called in football except in cases of excessive and unnecessary contact.


I am not an expert on football and without changing the topic of the conversation let me just voice my opinion that I disagree here as well.



Basketball is a non-contact sport where incidental contact may happen, but


I am sorry but it seems you and I grew up watching and playing two different sports. Saying that basketball is a noncontact sport where only incidental contact may happen is a statement I would attribute to someone who has never seen a basketball game - obviously not you, but I am just giving you an idea how outrageous I see that statement as being.



The foul on Singler was intentional and unnecessary


Unnecessary sure. But the statement about the intention rings too much like some statements from people down the road about an unnecessarily strong swing at the ball that one of our players made couple of years ago. You have no way of knowing what Boyle's intentions were. To me, it seemed that his eyes were on the ball but his physical execution was not quite like he envisioned it to be. Unnecessary, since making that attempt when the player has a clear advantage over you is not the brightest idea to put it mildly.



As for your excuses about why SI is not that good, because they're a "young team," keep in mind that Duke is as young and doesn't need to resort to thuggery to get their message across


No but Duke does resort to pretty physical play on the perimeter in their attempt to put pressure on the ball handler as well as deny passes off the ball - a lot of contact by any team's standards - that other fans might qualify as dirty. I am not equating this type of play with some of the physical play we saw last night but I am just saying - we are no angles either - we make use of and exploit the clauses in the rule book that ALLOW for contact in basketball.

I am a Duke fan, but sometimes we whine too much as well. Sure, get upset about Boyle's play - since it could have ended up being pretty awful. But other than that one start (which again could have had dire consequences) I did not see anything that makes me want to throw the team under the bus.

Just want to say, Singler is iron indeed.

[DawgStyle]

You obviously don't understand the difference between intentional and flagrant fouls.

I understand perfectly. I simply think too much is being made over a play I've seen a thousand times where typically no one says a word about it whether a foul was called or not.

I'm simply blown away that this one play has become the focus of discussion.

Was it foul? Yes. Was it physical? Yes. Should he have let the lay up happen? Probably. Did he intend to hurt your player? No.

Again, it's not whether a foul was called or not, it's that a play I see 5-6 times a game is garnering so much attention is ridiculous. This was nothing out of the ordinary. The only thing that was slightly different than usual was the way Singler landed.

[Acymetric]

I understand perfectly. I simply think too much is being made over a play I've seen a thousand times where typically no one says a word about it whether a foul was called or not.

I'm simply blown away that this one play has become the focus of discussion.

Was it foul? Yes. Was it physical? Yes. Should he have let the lay up happen? Probably. Did he intend to hurt your player? No.

Again, it's not whether a foul was called or not, it's that a play I see 5-6 times a game is garnering so much attention is ridiculous. This was nothing out of the ordinary. The only thing that was slightly different than usual was the way Singler landed.

I don't really think anyone is claiming that there was an intent to injure. But he did choose to make contact, and if that contact leads to a result like what we saw last night with Singler, then the fouling player is going to be penalized, as he should be. I'm not calling for him to be suspended, and I don't think anybody else is. I'm just questioning his judgment, hopefully he'll be more careful if he makes contact during similar plays in the future.

[roywhite]

Again, it's not whether a foul was called or not, it's that a play I see 5-6 times a game is garnering so much attention is ridiculous. This was nothing out of the ordinary. The only thing that was slightly different than usual was the way Singler landed.

My last comment on this:

The way Singler landed is important, and was a result of the foul. A play that could result in broken bones, a concussion, or even paralysis is not part of normal basketball play. The reaction of Duke's coach, and many on this board, was appropriate.

[feldspar]

Was it foul? Yes. Was it physical? Yes. Should he have let the lay up happen? Probably. Did he intend to hurt your player? No.


I don't agree with others here who say that it was a thug move and he was out to injure Singler.

But you also must acknowledge that you have no frame of reference for guessing his intent. None of us know his intent.

Obviously, Duke fans are going to be prone to believe he was out to injure, and SIU fans are prone to believe he wasn't.

None of us can know for sure. What's the big deal? (Here I think we agree)

I was inferring from your posts that you disagreed with the foul call itself. That was pretty clear cut. It was the right call.

[Rabid Dog]

Good slaughtering Dukies! I didn't expect to be drubbed like that. It didn't help our freshmen totally buckled in the end to let the deficit keep increasin. Congrats on having a great team, as usual. We will continue following our Salukis hoping that in a few years we will be able to compete better in a game like last night's. It is hard following a team through growing pains, but that is what you have to go through when you aren't a fan of a program that is good year in and year out. Duke will go far this year.

[FerryFor50]

This is one of the few times when I need not insert an "IMO" before I qualify your statement. You are wrong - it is.



No, there are rules that give an advantage to the other team when a certain type of contact is made. I do not see this rule as a statement that "contact should not be made."



I am not an expert on football and without changing the topic of the conversation let me just voice my opinion that I disagree here as well.



I am sorry but it seems you and I grew up watching and playing two different sports. Saying that basketball is a noncontact sport where only incidental contact may happen is a statement I would attribute to someone who has never seen a basketball game - obviously not you, but I am just giving you an idea how outrageous I see that statement as being.



Unnecessary sure. But the statement about the intention rings too much like some statements from people down the road about an unnecessarily strong swing at the ball that one of our players made couple of years ago. You have no way of knowing what Boyle's intentions were. To me, it seemed that his eyes were on the ball but his physical execution was not quite like he envisioned it to be. Unnecessary, since making that attempt when the player has a clear advantage over you is not the brightest idea to put it mildly.



No but Duke does resort to pretty physical play on the perimeter in their attempt to put pressure on the ball handler as well as deny passes off the ball - a lot of contact by any team's standards - that other fans might qualify as dirty. I am not equating this type of play with some of the physical play we saw last night but I am just saying - we are no angles either - we make use of and exploit the clauses in the rule book that ALLOW for contact in basketball.

I am a Duke fan, but sometimes we whine too much as well. Sure, get upset about Boyle's play - since it could have ended up being pretty awful. But other than that one start (which again could have had dire consequences) I did not see anything that makes me want to throw the team under the bus.

Just want to say, Singler is iron indeed.

This is an instance where we will agree to disagree.

I see your points, and I have heard them made before, but I've never been a proponent of them. To me, overt physicality during a basketball game is dirty and shouldn't have a place in the game. I prefer the fluid, finesse play, not the "so what I hit you? get over it" play.

A lot of the "physicality" you say Duke employs is more of the holding/bumping you to make you go out of bounds variety. It's not the "knock the living snot out of you from behind when you're going up for a breakaway layup" variety. That sort of contact is no big deal to me, and neither is the banging to get position - I understand that they've become a part of the game.

The contact that bugs me is the intentional hammering of a player when you're obviously beat. That's not basketball - that's just not being very good and using strongarm tactics to cover for it.

[DawgStyle]

I don't agree with others here who say that it was a thug move and he was out to injure Singler.

But you also must acknowledge that you have no frame of reference for guessing his intent. None of us know his intent.

Obviously, Duke fans are going to be prone to believe he was out to injure, and SIU fans are prone to believe he wasn't.

None of us can know for sure. What's the big deal? (Here I think we agree)

I was inferring from your posts that you disagreed with the foul call itself. That was pretty clear cut. It was the right call.

I agree with the call, it was a foul.

That's not my issue.

My issue is the big up roar over a play that people see all the time. The way Singler landed was regrettable, but this was nothing more or less than a foul. How many other contested lay ups did we see last night by both teams? Yet no one is making comments about those. Why? Because the guy who got fouled on those plays didn't land awkwardly.

Why accusations of thuggery, intent, etc. have been injected into this is what bothers me.

Frankly, I'm shocked a program with as many national titles as yours does, has this many people whining about a play like that. I guarantee you those national title teams knew how to play physical like this. If you don't, you don't win national titles. Your fans know this, but have conveniently forgot it in this discussion.

[MulletMan]

Dear God, could we whine a little more? It was a hard foul. Get over it. Singler is fine. Who cares what the kid's intent was? You'll never know.

You know what? Play us physical. Seems like that gets our guys into the game. Send us to the line. Foul your players out. G'head.

As for we Duke fans... enjoy the win. Focus on what we did well and what we can improve on. Don't complain about fouls. Really.

[DawgStyle]

It's not the "knock the living snot out of you from behind when you're going up for a breakaway layup" variety.

that's crap, duke is televised enough, and I've personally seen Duke players do the exact same thing.

[feldspar]

I agree with the call, it was a foul.

That's not my issue.

My issue is the big up roar over a play that people see all the time. The way Singler landed was regrettable, but this was nothing more or less than a foul. How many other contested lay ups did we see last night by both teams? Yet no one is making comments about those. Why? Because the guy who got fouled on those plays didn't land awkwardly.

Why accusations of thuggery, intent, etc. have been injected into this is what bothers me.

Frankly, I'm shocked a program with as many national titles as yours does, has this many people whining about a play like that. I guarantee you those national title teams knew how to play physical like this. If you don't, you don't win national titles. Your fans know this, but have conveniently forgot it in this discussion.

The foul was intentional. So I'm not sure what you beef is there.

I don't see a WHOLE lot of people calling whats-his-name a thug. I haven't read the whole thread, though.

I don't think it was a thug play. I do agree with others who say that the contact was excessive. You simply cannot have a play that results in the awkward landing that Singler had without excessive contact. Those basket supports are a good 4 to 5 feet off the baseline.

There is a difference between playing physical (which ALL teams must do) and being excessively physical (which that play was, whether you agree with it or not).

[Tom B.]

I don't have a problem with the intentional foul call. The SIU guy knew he was beaten badly and had no chance for a block. He went ahead and made a desperate play anyway, flailing at the ball with his right hand and shoving Singler in the back with his flexed left forearm while Singler was in the air. He clearly intended to foul and did so in a situation where someone could get hurt. I guess you could split hairs and say it was "only" reckless disregard for the consequences of the contact he knew he was making with no chance of a legitimate block rather than a deliberate intent to cause the result that happened.

But either way a foul should have been called, and probably an intentional or flagrant.

Now sometimes that sort of thing isn't called, especially if the consequence doesn't result in a bad crash like tonight's did. Officials use their discretion. They don't call intentional fouls on guards during end-of-game situations when everyone knows the fouls are intentional. But this one absolutely was both intentional and flagrant, if not excessively so, and had a bad result that the kid should have known to avoid. The official was well within the rule book in calling it.

That's my understanding as well. I'm not sure of the exact buzzphrase in the rule book, but I think the upshot is that something along the lines of "reckless disregard" combined with "excessive contact" is enough to justify a foul being called intentional or even flagrant.

Think back to when Gerald Henderson whacked Tyler Hansbrough and broke his nose. It didn't matter that Gerald's intent was to block the shot and maybe give a hard "body foul" in the process, and that he didn't intend to hit Hansbrough in the face. The fact that Gerald went up strong like that and left himself no place to come down other than right on top of Hansbrough was sufficiently reckless (and the contact was sufficiently excessive) to warrant a flagrant foul being called.

Similar situation last night. When you push a guy in the back at full speed on a fast break (as the SIU player clearly did), even if you're also "going for the ball" with your other hand, the guy going up for the shot will almost always get undercut and come down hard or severely off-balance, risking serious injury. That's why the call was made.

[bigj4194]

Good slaughtering Dukies! I didn't expect to be drubbed like that. It didn't help our freshmen totally buckled in the end to let the deficit keep increasin. Congrats on having a great team, as usual. We will continue following our Salukis hoping that in a few years we will be able to compete better in a game like last night's. It is hard following a team through growing pains, but that is what you have to go through when you aren't a fan of a program that is good year in and year out. Duke will go far this year.

I think you will have a very good team. Your team is just young. They have tremendous promise. Your team played a great game, I think we were just able to wear you down. Your physicality eventually hurt you, but once again good game.

Thanks for stopping by and being quite civil in your posts! Good Luck this season. I look forward to following your squad.

[MChambers]

that's crap, duke is televised enough, and I've personally seen Duke players do the exact same thing.

I can't remember a Duke player doing this, but I'm sure it has happened. I think we'd all agree that if a Duke player made the same play, it should be called an intentional foul. In fact, I remember last year when Paulus fouled McCauley for NC State (not on a fast break), several posters here agreed it should have been an intentional foul.

I don't think the play was thuggery, but it was excessive, and I think basketball has too much of that. I blame Pat Riley in his Knicks phase for this.

[wisteria]

I find it amusing that we had like 12 pages of pre-game discussion on this game, and now the post-game discussion threatens to top that. :p

[FerryFor50]

I agree with the call, it was a foul.

That's not my issue.

My issue is the big up roar over a play that people see all the time. The way Singler landed was regrettable, but this was nothing more or less than a foul. How many other contested lay ups did we see last night by both teams? Yet no one is making comments about those. Why? Because the guy who got fouled on those plays didn't land awkwardly.

Why accusations of thuggery, intent, etc. have been injected into this is what bothers me.

Frankly, I'm shocked a program with as many national titles as yours does, has this many people whining about a play like that. I guarantee you those national title teams knew how to play physical like this. If you don't, you don't win national titles. Your fans know this, but have conveniently forgot it in this discussion.

I called it thuggery because to me, if your coach is telling you to foul someone like that and you do it, you're a hired thug. Granted, I am making an inference over something greybeard said that makes sense, that the coach probably instructed his guys to foul the crap out of anyone and everyone with a chance to score. Which is why you saw 47 free throws and 31 personal fouls in a 25 point blowout. In a close, hotly contested game, then yea, you're going to see some contact. In a blowout, which admittedly was close early BECAUSE of the physicality, you shouldn't be seeing it to this extent.

I don't mean "thug" in the sense that you think I mean it, a la Bob Huggins. That's a poor inference. I mean it in the John Cheney way, where you tell your guy to go after someone. Remember Nememiah Ingram?

http://sportsprof.blogspot.com/2005/02/john-chaney-suspended-for-three-games.html

Maybe thug was a poor choice of words. And I certainly cannot speak with expertise on the player or coach's intent. But I can say what it looked like from my standpoint.

As for your other point, the ONLY other time I saw anything like that out of a Duke player is when Henderson bloodied Hansbrough's nose. And even then, at least Hendo had a play on the ball. Your guy had no chance at the play and still ran full steam into him.

[DawgStyle]

As for your other point, the ONLY other time I saw anything like that out of a Duke player is when Henderson bloodied Hansbrough's nose. And even then, at least Hendo had a play on the ball. Your guy had no chance at the play and still ran full steam into him.

"YouTube" is a great tool, you sure you want to play this game?

I'm not trying to start war. We got spanked last night. The better team won.

But I refuse to let a fan base who claims to have a lot of class call our players thugs while living under the umbrella that their players are perfect angels.

[Cavlaw]

"YouTube" is a great tool, you sure you want to play this game?

I'm not trying to start war. We got spanked last night. The better team won.

But I refuse to let a fan base who claims to have a lot of class call our players thugs while living under the umbrella that their players are perfect angels.
An entire fan base? Like two people have suggested thuggery. The rest of simply said it was a really bad play deserving of an intentional foul.

[DawgStyle]

An entire fan base? Like two people have suggested thuggery. The rest of simply said it was a really bad play deserving of an intentional foul.

your right, I should have singled out those fans, my apologies.

[BlueintheFace]

"YouTube" is a great tool, you sure you want to play this game?

I'm not trying to start war. We got spanked last night. The better team won.

But I refuse to let a fan base who claims to have a lot of class call our players thugs while living under the umbrella that their players are perfect angels.

Not an entire fan base... just a very few. I think most here believe the contact was certainly worthy of a foul call and under the rules for intentional fouls, a strong argument can be made that it was correctly called an intentional foul. However, most here believe the play was just overly aggressive, not thuggish.

[Saratoga2]

[QUOTE=DawgStyle;221332]I agree with the call, it was a foul.

That's not my issue.

My issue is the big up roar over a play that people see all the time. The way Singler landed was regrettable, but this was nothing more or less than a foul. How many other contested lay ups did we see last night by both teams? Yet no one is making comments about those. Why? Because the guy who got fouled on those plays didn't land awkwardly. "

With the exception of the Chicago Saluki, I think the rest of the Saluki fans have comported themselves well and added rational discussion to the board. I think we all agree that it was a foul against Singler, and due to the result, it had to be called intentional. Those kind of fouls are usually bad judgement and I think that was the case here. To call players thugs goes way too far. We all knew that the Salukis played a physical game, and they paid a price for it by sending our players to the foul line. They have some talented players and perhaps should think of balancing their defense a little more so they don't give so many fouls. The Fay kid and Diller in particular showed me a lot and should be all conference players for them.

[FerryFor50]

"YouTube" is a great tool, you sure you want to play this game?

I'm not trying to start war. We got spanked last night. The better team won.

But I refuse to let a fan base who claims to have a lot of class call our players thugs while living under the umbrella that their players are perfect angels.

When I do a search for "duke hard foul" on Youtube, I see two things:

1) Henderson's foul on Hansbrough
2) Duke players getting intentionally fouled

So please, enlighten me, because I also searched "duke thug" and "duke intentional foul" and got nada.

It's not like I'm calling the dude a thug after he made a play on the ball. HE DIDN'T MAKE A PLAY ON THE BALL. If he had been in position to make a play, then I wouldn't be having this discussion.

[bigj4194]

DawgStyle...i'm going to add my $0.02 to this discussion about the foul. In full speed it looked like a very hard foul that was intentional...thus an intentional foul call was deserved, but in replay it appears that it was just a hard foul. One Saluki fan earlier posted (and sorry for not quoting) that it was one of your more un-athletic players trying to make an athletic play. I think this is a fair analysis. I personally think that it should have just been a foul, not an intentional as it to me looked like he wasn't intentionally trying to harm Kyle, but the way that Kyle landed made it look even worse. I do not think this was "thuggery"...if you want thugs people have shown some good examples, but i would also throw out some U-Miami and BC players from the past few years who are thugs, but none of your players are thugs. You played a great game, but your physicality was eventually your downfall as you picked up silly fouls. Good Luck the rest of the season. Your team has a lot of promise.

[FerryFor50]

Not an entire fan base... just a very few. I think most here believe the contact was certainly worthy of a foul call and under the rules for intentional fouls, a strong argument can be made that it was correctly called an intentional foul. However, most here believe the play was just overly aggressive, not thuggish.

Agreed.

I retract my "thug" statement for the good of Blue Devil Nation. :)

[dw0827]

To those of us who have actually played the game of basketball, we know exactly what happened . . . because we've all been there.

There's a breakaway and the guy is going gangbusters for the hoop. I'm in a position to chase him down but I know instantaneously that I have no hope of actually stopping him. So I can either ease up and concede the layup or I can go balls-to-the-wall and annihilate the guy. Its a split second decision.

I've done both. I've eased up and conceded the bucket. And, sadly, I've crushed the guy. But here's the point. In that split second, I made a decision. I did it on purpose. I might have had a bad day. Flunked a test. Girl friend pissed me off. Or the guy just stole the ball from me. Whatever. But I knew I was going to cream the guy . . .

So, please, don't tell me that he just couldn't control his body or something lame like that. He shouldn't have made the play AT ALL. He knew exactly what he was going to do.

Intentional.

Flagrant.

IMO, that is.

[DawgStyle]

Again, to clarify. I had no issue with the call on the court. Agreed it was a foul, so stop making it sound like I didn't think it was a foul, it was.

Again, I simply took offense to a few posters calling our guys thugs. That's a term in basketball that carries a lot of weight. I simply don't tolerate that kind of stuff usually because it's a bit hypocritical. Your players either past or present have committed questionable calls as well, what give you the right to call our guy's thugs and not yours?

Lastly, this is my last post on this board. Thanks for letting us SIU fans post here. I think other than chicago saluki, most of us appreciated your board. I wish the out come of the game had been different, but what can you do. Maybe in a few years SIU's young guys will grow up and we can play again. Good luck this year, maybe we'll see you in March.

[allenmurray]

From what I understand officials can't read minds - therefore they don't really know if a foul was intentional or not. However, they can observe actions. They saw that a) the player had no real play on the ball, and b) the foul could have resulted in a serious injury. It was the combination of those two things (disregard for safety on a play that for all practical purposes was already over) that led to the call. See theplaycaller's column on the home page. He did a nice job.

[dukelifer]

I won’t have the time to read all the previous posts until tonight so I apologize if some of my observations have been beaten to death.


• Smith is a very good offensive player but Coach Knight was on the mark when he stated that Paulus would get the team into their offense when he came in. I realize that I am in the distinct minority on this board but I think the offense runs better with Paulus on the floor. He is always looking for the pass and I had no problem with his two passes to the paying customers. Scheyer, Singler, Henderson and Smith need to be set up on the perimeter for open shots. One-on-one play by these players may look great but this needs to be complimented by open jump shots.

gw67

I agree with you that I think the offense flows better with Paulus running the point. But that is mostly because he mush more experienced. I expect Nolan will come around- but his handle is shaky and against pressure that could be an issue.

Paulus's recent injury to his arm and off hand, however, has severely limited him- particularly shooting the ball. He needs to be a threat- which he usually is on most nights. His inability to shoot at the moment is a problem for Duke against a team that will zone up. I am still not confident about Duke's shooters- they are all a bit streaky.

Right not I would have Scheyer run the point in key moments. His handle is stronger and he sees the floor very well. Nolan will come along- he is a little Daniel Ewing like at the moment. The difference is that Nolan has more time to develop his point skills.

[feldspar]

From what I understand officials can't read minds

You'd be surprised...

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Just wanted to take a minute to congratulate the Saluki's we've had on the boards here. I really enjoyed our discussion and I came away from the game very impressed. I think the physical play got out of hand a bit, but you have a young team that is still trying to find the balance between hard-nosed D and counterproductive physicality. If you can keep the intensity but cut back on the fouls you'll have a defense that's second to none that can carry you through a lot of tough games. As I expected, both teams are still finding themselves in November. By March I expect we'll both be teams that nobody wants to see in their bracket.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by. I hope you'll keep in touch as the season goes on and I'll definitely be cheering for you this evening against UCLA.

[Carlos]

My issue is the big up roar over a play that people see all the time. The way Singler landed was regrettable, but this was nothing more or less than a foul. How many other contested lay ups did we see last night by both teams? Yet no one is making comments about those. Why? Because the guy who got fouled on those plays didn't land awkwardly.

Not to pile on here, but your logic is absolutely absurd. Hey, sure, contested layups happen all the time and yes, the difference between other contested layups that happen and the one with Singler is the awkward way he landed.

But why did Singler land awkwardly while others didn't? Could it have something to do with the fact that on other contested layups the defender didn't push the player in the small of the back while the guy was in the air?

What you're trying to do is apply a pretty broad definition of "contested layup" in order to minimize what happened.

Doesn't make Boyle a thug and it doesn't make him a dirty player. It does make it an intentional foul and it does mean that what you're looking at isn't the same as all the other contested layups that occurred during a game.

[bigj4194]

Anyone have a link to vids of the post game interviews? I would love to see K's and Lowery's interviews. Many Thanks!

[DukieInKansas]

Just read the Playcallers article on the foul. Great insight from a referee's perspective.

[wilson]

Just read the Playcallers article on the foul. Great insight from a referee's perspective.

Link?

[bigj4194]

Link?

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=26171

[Acymetric]

Just read the Playcallers article on the foul. Great insight from a referee's perspective.

I had completely forgotten about those articles from last year. I really enjoy those contributions to the site, thanks for mentioning it. I might not have noticed it on the main page otherwise. Great read.

[BlueintheFace]

From what I understand officials can't read minds -

This reminds me of a great quote I once read from a conversation between a coach and a referee.

"Ref, can you give me a technical foul for what I am thinking?"
"No, I can't"
"Good, because I think you are a son of a B****"

The only problem is, I forget which coach said it... anybody remember?

[throatybeard]

Frankly, I'm shocked a program with as many national titles as yours does, has this many people whining about a play like that. I guarantee you those national title teams knew how to play physical like this. If you don't, you don't win national titles. Your fans know this, but have conveniently forgot it in this discussion.

Clearly, you don't know us very well.

Just be glad you don't go to Virginia Tech. We're still whining years later about things Devon Rouse and Deron Washington did.

[Lord Ash]

This reminds me of a great quote I once read from a conversation between a coach and a referee.

"Ref, can you give me a technical foul for what I am thinking?"
"No, I can't"
"Good, because I think you are a son of a B****"

The only problem is, I forget which coach said it... anybody remember?

I am pretty sure it was Jimmy V, although I might be wrong.

[DukieInKansas]

This reminds me of a great quote I once read from a conversation between a coach and a referee.

"Ref, can you give me a technical foul for what I am thinking?"
"No, I can't"
"Good, because I think you are a son of a B****"

The only problem is, I forget which coach said it... anybody remember?

Jimmy V told this story but he used "I think you suck" when he told it on TV.

[TimmySIU]

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=26171


Interesting article. Obviously, had a similar call gone the other way - some of you guys would be up in arms about the intentional foul call coming from 60 feet away when the other two officials made no call of any foul whatsoever.

Did anyone else think Henderson should have been T'ed up after showboating after his dunk?

[davekay1971]

I am pretty sure it was Jimmy V, although I might be wrong.

It was, indeed, the great Jimmy V. One of his all time classics, right up there with "The guy in the back is telling me 30 seconds. I'm dying of cancer! What do you think I care about your 30 seconds?" (very very vague paraphrase, but you get the idea).

All in all, I have to say big props to the Saluki fans who came on this site to support their team, and have come back afterwards to say good game.

[dball]

This reminds me of a great quote I once read from a conversation between a coach and a referee.

"Ref, can you give me a technical foul for what I am thinking?"
"No, I can't"
"Good, because I think you are a son of a B****"

The only problem is, I forget which coach said it... anybody remember?

Always heard this as a baseball manager-umpire quote. (Can you throw me out for what I'm thinkin'?) Billy Martin, I believe, though maybe Earl Weaver

[Carlos]

I don't think Henderson did much after his dunk. I think you may be confusing him with Smith who certainly could have earned a T for his actions.

[dw0827]

Agreed. G, I suspect, didn't react much because it was just another day at the park for him . . . no big deal. Nolan, on the other hand, gave us a quick "look at me" pose.

Not a biggie, but I really don't care for that. Just as I don't like the end zone antics we see these days in football.

I subscribe to the adage "Act like you've been there before."

[greybeard]

Just wanted to take a minute to congratulate the Saluki's we've had on the boards here. I really enjoyed our discussion and I came away from the game very impressed. I think the physical play got out of hand a bit, but you have a young team that is still trying to find the balance between hard-nosed D and counterproductive physicality. If you can keep the intensity but cut back on the fouls you'll have a defense that's second to none that can carry you through a lot of tough games. As I expected, both teams are still finding themselves in November. By March I expect we'll both be teams that nobody wants to see in their bracket.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by. I hope you'll keep in touch as the season goes on and I'll definitely be cheering for you this evening against UCLA.

I think that if you watch that game and see the play in the context of how Singler was played the entire game you will see that the imperative was to stop Singler from getting to the basket. They were not concerned with a basket if he caught it deep. They were concerned with forclosing him from penetrating the defense with the dribble. No lay ups. That strategy worked for the "U" last year, when the red haired kid especially but all their bigs laid anybody out who approached the basket. This is not on the players but rather on the coaches and referees.

SI could not stay on the court with Duke without going way over the line. To me, the game got out of hand when no. 22 put Singler down early in the second half and the refs called nothing.

That play said to me that SI's players were way too amped. Had the refs called a foul on that play and then had a chat with the coach, the second dangerous play never happens. BTW, either play could easily have ended Duke's season. Easily.

[davekay1971]

Interesting article. Obviously, had a similar call gone the other way - some of you guys would be up in arms about the intentional foul call coming from 60 feet away when the other two officials made no call of any foul whatsoever.

Did anyone else think Henderson should have been T'ed up after showboating after his dunk?

Nope. Smith shouldn't have either.

As for the foul on Singler, I don't think the SIU player had any malicious intent at all, but I think he was probably playing with some frustration. In other words, I'm sure he did not mean to injure (or try to) injure Singler, but he was probably more aggressive trying to prevent the dunk than he otherwise would have been. It was pretty clear he wasn't going to be able to stop Singler without totally taking him out, and it was pretty clear that taking him out would be dangerous, so the SIU kid should have probably just let him go. However, it's a game of seconds, passion, and instinct, and we can't always ask clearer heads to prevail. As for any assertion (or implication) that there really wasn't a foul there, that's ridiculous. The SIU player put more than enough body on Singler, coming from behind, to warrant a foul. The two refs right there I think did make it their priority to make sure (1) Singler was ok; and (2) nobody was going to come up swinging. The intentional penalty was probably done as a reaction to the severity of the fall and with the intent to prevent an already chippy/physical game from getting out of hand in the last few minutes. So, IMHO, it was a good call.

TimmySIU, I don't think many people on this board are going to claim that Duke is totally guiltless in this department. We all remember Laettner's immature step-on-the-chest move in the 1992 KY game, we remember Henderson coming down hard on Hansbrough's nose in 2006 (also a play that I think was without malicious intent), and my mother (who sired 2 Duke grads) can't quite forgive Duke for undercutting Buck Williams in the 1985 ACC tournament game. But we're fans, and we tend to get a little grumpy when one of our favorite guys gets laid out and put in harms way in a totally avoidable way.

[dyedwab]

TimmySIU, I don't think many people on this board are going to claim that Duke is totally guiltless in this department. We all remember Laettner's immature step-on-the-chest move in the 1992 KY game, we remember Henderson coming down hard on Hansbrough's nose in 2006 (also a play that I think was without malicious intent), and my mother (who sired 2 Duke grads) can't quite forgive Duke for undercutting Buck Williams in the 1985 ACC tournament game. But we're fans, and we tend to get a little grumpy when one of our favorite guys gets laid out and put in harms way in a totally avoidable way.

I would also like to add that after year of codswallop swallowed whole by a media that believes "Duke gets all the calls," and after Henderson's intentional foul on Hansborough not only earned a suspension, but was played on an endless loop on ESPN and other sports stations for at least a week, we Duke fans might be a tad sensitive when a fan from another team comes and says to us, ""well, you know that intentional foul call was a really bad call that benefitted Duke."

I think it was a clear cut intentional/flagrant foul (to me, a difference without a distinction). But the key point here is that it was, at worst, a debatable call...

...in my real life, I deal in crisis communications and rapid response. What tends to happen is that we aggressively respond to stimuli that we know will lead to the attack we seem to constantly respond to. That seems to be what happened, to some degree here. Some of the response was to what Duke fans believe is the inevitable charge that the call wouldn't have been made if it wasn't a Duke player....cause we know that's how this debate devolves.

Sometimes, folks just get caught in that crossfire

[dukebluelemur]

I got bored around about page 9... I have to say though, this game has taken on a life of its own, what with the involvement of the Saluki fan base.

(Side note, why cant I help thinking of their mascot as the Paris Hilton of the dog world?)

Anyway, its been refreshing to have such a lively debate with another passionate fanbase with remarkably little acrimony/chest thumping/ridiculous accusations. Saluki fans, as a body, have really impressed me, and not just here. Ive been lurking on their forum all week. I understand a few getting emotional, and every group is bound to have some delusional rabid duke haters in it, but on the whole its just about the only board Ive seen apart from ours that seemed to be having a sane discussion about basketball issues.

So a lot of respect for them. I'll be pulling for them in the future.

That said, I'm not a fan of how their team plays. Not because I think they are thugs. My objection is more on aesthetic grounds, while lots of physical contact and fouls may be a legitimate tactic, its not the type of basketball I enjoy watching. I like finesse and elegance. But they do play hard, and I appreciate that.

Not really much of a point to this post I guess, other than to say thanks Salukis, and good luck to you.

[Jim3k]

This reminds me of a great quote I once read from a conversation between a coach and a referee.

"Ref, can you give me a technical foul for what I am thinking?"
"No, I can't"
"Good, because I think you are a son of a B****"

The only problem is, I forget which coach said it... anybody remember?

I believe it was coach Gene Hackman in Hoosiers.

[saluki0483]

Good game fellas.

Just wanted to say quickly that I know Boyle rather well and he in no way would ever mean to hurt someone. I think it looked way worse and shouldn't have been an intentional foul at all.

I didn't think we'd get beat that bad, and the intentional foul made the end result much worse than the game really was.

We made a lot of mistakes and you finally made us pay for it. Not a shock though.

[wisteria]

intention to foul is not equal to intention to hurt.

So I think most of Duke fans agree that the SIU play did not intent to hurt Singler. But he intended to make a play knowing that it would involve fouling. So really, I don't see many people accusing the SIU play as malicious at all. But it was a foul. That's it. And let's move on.

Go Devils! Beat Michigan!

[Acymetric]

intention to foul is not equal to intention to hurt.

So I think most of Duke fans agree that the SIU play did not intent to hurt Singler. But he intended to make a play knowing that it would involve fouling. So really, I don't see many people accusing the SIU play as malicious at all. But it was a foul. That's it. And let's move on.

Go Devils! Beat Michigan!

I think its mostly that people have different understandings of what an intentional foul means. I think it was a good call, and that since Kyle was ok its not a big deal. I'm sure Boyle is a good guy, along with the rest of the players.
Good game, and good luck against UCLA, the Saluki's are certainly making it a game

[gep]

Agreed. G, I suspect, didn't react much because it was just another day at the park for him . . . no big deal. Nolan, on the other hand, gave us a quick "look at me" pose.

Not a biggie, but I really don't care for that. Just as I don't like the end zone antics we see these days in football.

I subscribe to the adage "Act like you've been there before."

When I first saw Nolan raise his hands, I thought the same thing. But, after a re-play, it looked like Nolan was raising his hands to keep from getting tangled up with the Saluki player getting off the floor real close to Nolan. However, it seems that his palms were directed "inward", appearing to "boast"... instead of "outward-forward", more appearing to trying to not "touch" the other player. At least, that's what I was hoping:rolleyes:

[MChambers]

I believe it was coach Gene Hackman in Hoosiers.

It was real life, Jimmie V to Hank Nichols, and he said "Then I think you s___!"

It's documented in a Feinstein book.

[mapei]

This is not directly on point but related. I saw a flagrant foul a couple of nights ago in a Villanova game. I can't remember who they were playing but the Nova guy, Cunningham, whacked his opponent hard in the face with an elbow. It looked very deliberate, a Deron-Washington-type play. The guy who got whacked was hurt by it, and may have been knocked to the floor, though I don't remember that part.

It was not under the basket in a crowd; it was about half-court and those two were the only ones around. And it was right in front of an official.

The ref called some sort of contact foul on the guy who got whacked and completely overlooked (or ignored) the deliberate, hard elbow. I couldn't believe it and neither could the announcers. I thought the Nova guy should have been tossed from the game for that.

[CDu]

Having now seen the intentional foul in question on Singler, I'm pretty confident that was a bad call. I think it looked a lot worse because Singler dunked the ball and his added momentum swung his lower body into the air.

The defender definitely fouls Singler in the mid-to-lower back with the forearm of his down arm. But the bump didn't appear to be that substantial. It's not until Singler grabs the rim (causing the upper-body to stop moving forward while the lower body kept going) that his legs swing out from under him. Had Singler shot a layup and not caught the rim, he'd have still had his feet under him at the end. He'd have gone flying into the fans courtside or into the padding though - a combination of his momentum and the bump.

Ultimately, the play wound up looking a lot worse than it really was. It was definitely a foul, but I think the refs missed the call in calling it an intentional foul. Sometimes the aftermath of a play can mislead people into thinking it was more than it really was, and I think that was the case here.

And I apologize for bringing this thing up yet again.

[jsaluki]

Well, I haven't read this thread since pre-game, but I was told it has since gotten into the foul called on Boyle against Singler. I'm not here to talk about that; he fouled the kid and that was the "breaking point" for the Salukis. We couldn't recover psychologically after that.

I personally thought it'd be a closer game. I was disappointed to see the Dawgs lose it when they stayed in the game for about 33 minutes. I can only hope playing Duke and UCLA will win this team some games come conference time. It's been fun chatting all week. Take care...maybe we'll see ya in March.;)

-jsaluki

[wisteria]

Looks like the Salukis did get a hangover. The Salukis center will be out for 4-6 weeks because of wrist injury suffered during the loss to UCLA. Hope he recovers soon.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3724057

[taiw93]

Looks like the Salukis did get a hangover. The Salukis center will be out for 4-6 weeks because of wrist injury suffered during the loss to UCLA. Hope he recovers soon.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3724057

I went to MSG for the Duke - Michigan game and caught the last few minutes of the UCLA - SIU game. I remember this injury quite clearly - the kid landed so hard that the floor shook, and a loud thud reverberated throughout the entire arena. I really hope this kid's okay - he went down extremely hard.

[wisteria]

I went to MSG for the Duke - Michigan game and caught the last few minutes of the UCLA - SIU game. I remember this injury quite clearly - the kid landed so hard that the floor shook, and a loud thud reverberated throughout the entire arena. I really hope this kid's okay - he went down extremely hard.

Somehow I remembered a UCLA player hurt his wrist/arm pretty bad... But maybe that was a different play.

[Newton_14]

You are correct Wisteria, the UCLA guy hurt his wrist on a bad fall, but the SI big man also took a nasty fall and was hurt as well. The SI fall was actually worse than the UCLA guy's..