Keeping track of the conferences [Archive]

JasonEvans

11-19-2008, 12:49 PM

It is still early and probably does not mean much of anything, but the ACC is one of two conferences that remain unbeaten right now in college hoops.

Here are the records of the 5 major conferences that dominate when NCAA bids come around.

ACC 22-0
Big Ten 20-0
Big Twelve 24-1
Big East 24-2
Pac Ten 15-4
SEC 14-4

--Jason "the SEC just looks bad this year" Evans

Olympic Fan

11-20-2008, 01:11 PM

Virginia Tech's 74-57 victory over Fairfield this morning in the first round of the Puerto Rican shootout has improved the ACC's outside record to 26-0.

Obviously, none of the wins are that impressive -- nobody has beaten a ranked opponent yet. What's most impressive is the play of the lower-ranked teams. Two of the ACC's bottom rung teams are a combined 2-0 against the Big East with BC beating St. John's and Virginia edging South Florida.

Much more significant tests ahead, starting with Duke's game with Southern Illinois tonight and potentially against UCLA tomorrow night. Virginia Tech earned a second-round matchup with the Missouri/Xavier winner -- either one would be a good win for the ACC.

A lot of games on tap this weekend -- six Friday, six Saturday and three Sunday. Duke-UCLA would clearly be the headliners (if we get that matchup), although Virginia Tech could get Memphis Sunday in the finals of its tournament. Clemson at Charlotte Saturday will be a good road test for an upper division ACC team (and a chance for the ACC to improve on its 3-0 record against the Atlantic 10 ... the first three have all been close games).

blazindw

11-20-2008, 02:16 PM

I wish we were 24-2. ;)

camion

11-20-2008, 02:44 PM

What the ACC needs is three or four really sucky teams at the bottom so that the rest of the league can fatten up on some sure wins. That way more than half of the league could have .500+ conference records and scream for NCAA bids. :)

Not that I'd want to emulate the Big East or anything.

RainingThrees

11-20-2008, 03:01 PM

pfrduke

11-20-2008, 03:44 PM

I wonder what the ACC record will look like compared to the Big East at the end of the season, some would say thats unfair because the Big East has more quality teams but I think the Big EAst will beat themselves up a lot.

The Big East beating up on each other will be completely irrelevant to the conferences' respective records. Both the Big East and the ACC (and all the 29 other conferences) will collectively go .500 in conference play. The only differentiating record is non-con.

RainingThrees

11-20-2008, 03:46 PM

How about taking the top 5 teams records?

elvis14

11-20-2008, 03:56 PM

I wish we were 24-2. ;)

blazindw speaks the truth! 24-2 would be much better than 26-0
9F :D

Bob Green

11-20-2008, 04:13 PM

Virginia Tech earned a second-round matchup with the Missouri/Xavier winner -- either one would be a good win for the ACC.

Xavier defeated Missouri 75 - 71.

BlueintheFace

11-20-2008, 06:11 PM

The key is to really root hard for all ACC teams against Big East teams so that we can pull the conference v conference record up later in the season when discussing which one is strongest...

RainingThrees

11-20-2008, 06:14 PM

We need an ACC-Big East challenge. This Big 10 challenge is a complete joke.

roywhite

11-20-2008, 06:17 PM

The key is to really root hard for all ACC teams against Big East teams so that we can pull the conference v conference record up later in the season when discussing which one is strongest...

It seems to be conventional wisdom among the Bristol talking heads that the Big East is the strongest conference. In fact, just heard Hubert Davis say that. Come on, Hubert, how about some props for your old conference?

Bob Green

11-20-2008, 06:41 PM

We need an ACC-Big East challenge. This Big 10 challenge is a complete joke.

There use to be an ACC - Big East challenge prior to the current ACC - Big 10 challenge.

Acymetric

11-20-2008, 10:21 PM

Florida State in danger of blowing our perfect record, up 2 with 1:30 left against...Stetson?

JasonEvans

11-20-2008, 11:00 PM

There use to be an ACC - Big East challenge prior to the current ACC - Big 10 challenge.

And it was stopped because the ACC beating the snot out of the Big East once or twice and the BE did not like that so it pulled out. That is how the ACC-B10 challenge started.

--Jason "the BE is afraid of the ACC" Evans

JasonEvans

11-20-2008, 11:02 PM

Florida State in danger of blowing our perfect record, up 2 with 1:30 left against...Stetson?

FSU won by 2.

ACC is now 28-0.

-Jason

JasonEvans

11-21-2008, 07:28 AM

ACC is now 28-0.

Thanks to Michigan's upset of UCLA, the Big Televen is now 27-0, the only other undefeated conference.

This means that Duke's matchup with the Wolverines tonight will determine which conference stays unbeaten the longest. This is really important in the grand scheme of things... either that or it is totally trivial and meaningless. I am not sure which.

There are 5 other ACC teams with games tonight, the biggest potential for a loss being Xavier and Va Tech which will be played this afternoon and could make the Duke-Michigan game moot from the undefeated conference standpoint.

The only other Big Televen team in action is Wisconsin, playing at home against Iona. Not much of a challenge there.

--Jason "go ACC!!" Evans
--Jason "

Wander

11-21-2008, 08:47 AM

I would not be shocked if Southern Miss beat Miami this afternoon.

JasonEvans

11-21-2008, 10:04 AM

I would not be shocked if Southern Miss beat Miami this afternoon.

Not saying it cannot happen, but it would certainly be a pretty decent upset. Miami is considered one of the top teams in the ACC and a top 25 club. Southern Miss is from a decent conference (Conf USA) but they are not a strong NCAA tournament contender. Sagarin and Pomeroy both have them in the mid-120s in their rankings.

For a Miami team that has very high aspirations and is loaded with experienced players this would be a big setback.

--Jason "Vegas has Miami as about an 8-10 point pick and I would take Miami if I was betting" evans

Olympic Fan

11-21-2008, 10:55 AM

We need an ACC-Big East challenge. This Big 10 challenge is a complete joke.

A year ago, the ACC went 13-10 against the Big East -- if that enough games for a challenge?

This year, the ACC is already 2-0 in the "ACC-Big East Challenge" with both wins being lower exchelon ACC teams (Boston College and Virginia) beating lower echelon Big East teams (St. John's and South Florida).

Coming up:

Nov. 28 -- Virginia at Syracuse, FSU at Cincinnati
Dec. 20 -- Providence at Boston College
Dec. 21 -- Pitt at Florida State
Dec. 22 -- Marquette at NC State
Dec. 27 -- Miami at St. John's
Dec. 28 -- Rutgers at UNC
Jan. 17 -- Georgetown at Duke
Feb. 19 -- Duke at St. John's

That's nine games for sure between the two leagues ... there will probably be a few more in early season tournament play -- usually on neutral courts.

As for this weekend's games, I agree that the Miami-Southern Miss game will be dangerous, although Miami will be favored. The Xavier-Virginia Tech game (today at 1:30 pm on ESPNU) is my pick for the ACC's first loss ... although I'd love to be proved wrong.

Another tough one Saturday -- Georgia Tech at Mercer at 1 p.m. ... Mercer has already upset Alabama and Auburn on the road this season. That would be a big win for the ACC. Clemson at UNC Charlotte is another big one.

Plus, if Miami gets by Southern Miss in the opening of the Paradise Jam, their likely second-round game will be against UConn (which opens against LaSalle).

So by Saturday night, it's very unlikely that the ACC will be unbeaten.

Dr. Rosenrosen

11-21-2008, 11:01 AM

We need an ACC-Big East challenge. This Big 10 challenge is a complete joke.

There used be one. We had it while I was still at Duke in the early 90s. I recall it being a great series, strong competition year after year. Bring it back!

Indoor66

11-21-2008, 11:21 AM

So by Saturday night, it's very unlikely that the ACC will be unbeaten.

...or quite exciting if the ACC is unbeaten! ;)

Cavlaw

11-21-2008, 11:23 AM

The Big Ten still fares well throughout the season and puts a lot of teams in the tournament (during the early years of the challenge, I seem to recall them having good representation in the Final Four, as well). So I'm not sure how the Challenge always seems so one-sided.

I'd like it if it were more competitive, but I guess in order for that to happen the ACC would have to lose for a few years, and I'm not really in favor of that!

Indoor66

11-21-2008, 11:28 AM

So I'm not sure how the Challenge always seems so one-sided.

It gets so one-sided because the ACC teams beat-up on the Big Ten teams, year in and year out. It is no mystery.

Cavlaw

11-21-2008, 11:42 AM

It gets so one-sided because the ACC teams beat-up on the Big Ten teams, year in and year out. It is no mystery.
Yes. I was trying to say that the Big Ten usually shows itself to be a pretty good conference by the end of the season, so it's odd to me how the ACC is able to thump them every year.

I used to think it was just bad matchups - some years you see one of the ostensibly higher seeded games featuring two teams that were strong the prior year, but one of which (generally from the Big Ten) is not nearly as strong in the current year.

That can't account for it all by itself though, since if we send a weaker Big Ten team to play a stronger ACC team, by necessity a weaker ACC team has to face stronger Big Ten team. (Weaker and stronger being relative within each conference, not necessarily nominally against the opponent)

Ok, now I'm looking at the results (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACC_-_Big_Ten_Challenge) and thinking about "recent" history, I guess it makes sense. Illinois and Indiana, particularly, have struggled the last several seasons, and the Big Ten has only been competitive in 1 of the last 5 years.

Prior to that, when the Big Ten was putting a team (or two!) in the Final Four every year, the Challenge was very competitive. (It probably also helped in the early years that the Big Ten could leave its weakest team out due to the difference in the number of teams in each conference - something the ACC can do now).

I don't expect this year to be competitive either. I'll have to check the end of season conference sagarin ratings, I think that would be interesting to look at historically.

BlueintheFace

11-21-2008, 11:51 AM

The Xavier-Virginia Tech game (today at 1:30 pm on ESPNU) is my pick for the ACC's first loss ... although I'd love to be proved wrong.

IMO, this is a win-win for us. If Xavier wins, they will probably move from the fringe of the top 25 in to the mix and we want them to be highly rated when we play them... If VaTech wins then another ACC win.

Wander

11-21-2008, 12:15 PM

Miami is considered one of the top teams in the ACC and a top 25 club.

Not by me. :)

Indoor66

11-21-2008, 12:31 PM

Not by me. :)

And many of us Wander who you are! :D

JasonEvans

11-21-2008, 03:07 PM

Not saying it cannot happen, but it would certainly be a pretty decent upset. Miami is considered one of the top teams in the ACC and a top 25 club. Southern Miss is from a decent conference (Conf USA) but they are not a strong NCAA tournament contender. Sagarin and Pomeroy both have them in the mid-120s in their rankings.

For a Miami team that has very high aspirations and is loaded with experienced players this would be a big setback.

--Jason "Vegas has Miami as about an 8-10 point pick and I would take Miami if I was betting" Evans

Ahem... Miami led comfortably, by double digits, pretty much the entire second half and won by 10.

Va Tech leads Xavier by 5 with 9 minutes to go as the ACC attempts to get to 30-0.

--Jason "the ACC generally has the best non-conf record of any league so our success this year is not even mildly surprising" Evans

Olympic Fan

11-21-2008, 03:09 PM

Whether or not Miami is top 25, they played like it today, easily disposing of a Southern Miss team picked third (behind Memphis and UAB) in C-USA.

Final: Miami 70-58 ... Miami leading by double figures most of the half.

As I type this, Virginia Tech is up 46-39 on Xavier with 9:53 to play ... not counting chickens, but 30-0 looks do-able!

The rest of tonight doesn't look bad either -- Radford at Virginia, Vermont at Maryland, UNC at UC Santa Barbara ... Duke-Michigan.

We should learn a lot more about Miami tomorrow when they meet No. 2 UConn (unless LaSalle does to the Huskies what Michigan did to the Bruins).

Edit: Jason props ... you're quicker on the keyboard!

Cavlaw

11-21-2008, 03:25 PM

Gah, Vt is tied up. Let's go Hokies!

Cavlaw

11-21-2008, 03:42 PM

Killing themselves with fouls in OT.

JasonEvans

11-21-2008, 03:54 PM

Tie game, 8 seconds left. Va Tech ball.

Bring it home ACC!!

-J

JasonEvans

11-21-2008, 03:55 PM

30-0 baby!!

Va Tech won by 2.

--Jason "impressive" Evans

Cavlaw

11-21-2008, 03:56 PM

ESPN gametracker is showing Xavier by one on a 3-pointer.

Olympic Fan

11-21-2008, 03:57 PM

Jason, you were premature ... Xavier threw one in from halfcourt at the buzzer to win by three.

Cavlaw

11-21-2008, 03:59 PM

That's just painful, but the play-by-play in OT suggests VT couldn't stop fouling and gave the game away.

Olympic Fan

11-21-2008, 04:04 PM

Just to follow up ... a brutal, brutal loss for the Hokies.

The led all the way in regulation, despite a horrendous night for Vassallo (2 points in regulation). Up 52-45 with just under five minutes left.

Virginia Tech goes scoreless for the last five minutes of regulation. Tied at 52 with 45 seconds left. Malcolm Delaney misses two free throws. Still tied withe the final six seconds ticking off, Delaney drives the lane and charges.

Overtime.

It's back and forth. Vassallo hits a tough, spinning J to put VPI up, then fouls out with four total points. Hudson makes two clutch free throws with 27 seconds left to put the Hokies up one, but with 13 seconds left, a Xavier kid hits 1 of 2 from the line to tie it.

Hokies bring it up, miss the initial jumper, but score on the stickback with 1.9 seconds left. Xavier, having no timeouts, inbounds while 4 of the 5 Virginia Tech players celebrate (with Jason Evans). There are no defenders near the Xavier shooter as he puts one up from almost exactly the same spot Sean Dockery did three years ago (was it really that long ago? Wow!) to beat the Hokies.

Indoor66

11-21-2008, 04:08 PM

Hokies bring it up, miss the initial jumper, but score on the stickback with 1.9 seconds left. Xavier, having no timeouts, inbounds while 4 of the 5 Virginia Tech players celebrate (with Jason Evans). There are no defenders near the Xavier shooter as he puts one up from almost exactly the same spot Sean Dockery did three years ago (was it really that long ago? Wow!) to beat the Hokies.

Just goes to prove, again, that it ain't over 'till it's over! :o

ACCBBallFan

11-21-2008, 04:34 PM

Xavier in overtime hit a half court prayer after VA Tech has scored with 1.9 seconds left to take a 62-60 lead only to lose on another Sean Dockery type shot 63-62.

Clock stopped a few tenths of a second after the 2 point score. Not sure if that is supposed to happen or not, under current rules and restarted at 1.9 when Xavier guy got ball in back court.

I don't have a Utube but sure it will be played on Sports Center and every televised game tonight.

davekay1971

11-21-2008, 04:37 PM

I'm an ACC fan and always cheer for the ACC (with the notable exception of the 'Holes) against non-conference foes. But I still find myself chuckling softly at what Va Tech just let happen.

bjornolf

11-21-2008, 04:59 PM

I believe that at the end of the game and overtime, the clock is supposed to stop on a score. However, I DON'T think it's supposed to stop at the end of the first half.

JasonEvans

11-21-2008, 05:08 PM

Just goes to prove, again, that it ain't over 'till it's over! :o

The Yahoo boxscore said Va Tech 62 - Xavier 60 and it listed the game as Final. I was not watching on TV or anything, just watching the boxscore and it showed the game being over.

What a truly brutal way to lose -- but it sounds like a game they deserved to lose as all it took was executing on one more play (in regulation or OT) to win the game.

--Jason "poor Va Tech, they seem to be on the wrong end of this stuff too often" Evans

nyr484

11-21-2008, 05:14 PM

That is to say they were down by 2 with a few seconds left, and hit a halfcourt shot at the buzzer to win. There must be a few players still on VT who were there for the Dockery game too. That must suck.

Olympic Fan

11-21-2008, 05:14 PM

The NCAA changed the rule after the 1993 season.

Before the 1993-94 season, the clock ran after a made shot unless there was a timeout.

Now, the clock stops after a made shot in the last minute of regulation and of any overtime. I saw the end of the Xavier-Va Tech game and the refs/clock operator got everything exactly right.

Tough one of the Hokies to lose ...it was almost a carbon copy of the Dockery shot, from almost exactly the same spot on the floor.

Interesting note: 50 years ago, the clock ran on out of bounds plays -- unless the ref thought there was a delay in getting the ball back in and blew his whistle.

During the Duke-St. Joe's game in the 1960 Sweet 16, Duke's up two with 17 seconds left when Johnny Frye misses a game-clinching free throw. St. Joe's rushes the ball downcourt to attempt a game-tying shot. Duke's Howard Hurt slaps the ball out of bounds. Ref Max Macon (like Bruce Benedict of 2002 Duke-Indiana infamy, a Major League baseball player) doesn't stop the clock. St. Joe's captain Paul Westhead takes his time going to pick the ball up. He still's holding it, prepared to make a inbounds pass when the final buzzer sounds.

Hawks' coach Jack Ramsey rushes the floor, chest-bumping Macon (shades of Christiansen and Benedict), but the game's over.

Not sure when they changed the rule to automatically stop the clock on an out-of-bounds play, but it was soon after that.

Acymetric

11-21-2008, 06:01 PM

Did anyone else notice how incredibly empty the gym was for the VT-Xavier game? That have been some finish to witness for all six of the fans present.

Edit: Steve Wojciechowski? Sweet, I'm hitting all kinds of great milestones today.

Cavlaw

11-21-2008, 09:39 PM

The Yahoo boxscore said Va Tech 62 - Xavier 60 and it listed the game as Final. I was not watching on TV or anything, just watching the boxscore and it showed the game being over.

What a truly brutal way to lose -- but it sounds like a game they deserved to lose as all it took was executing on one more play (in regulation or OT) to win the game.

--Jason "poor Va Tech, they seem to be on the wrong end of this stuff too often" Evans
I think that this sort of stuff keeps happening to them shows a lack of discipline, which is something that you have to lay at the feet of the coach.

Channing

11-21-2008, 10:20 PM

this time by Xavier.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=283262752

**can someone please correct the typo in the title

Cell-R

11-21-2008, 10:24 PM

You have to feel bad for Virginia Tech.
It seems like this happens to them far more often then it should.

devildeac

11-22-2008, 01:17 AM

Olympic Fan

11-23-2008, 12:52 AM

The ACC took another loss today when Boston College fell to St. Louis -- a mid-level A-10 team. It was 53-50 on the road in a game where Tyrese Rice was something like 4-of-17 from the floor.

Balancing that was a good win by Georgia Tech, when stormed back from 18 down in the second half to win at Mercer ... a Mercer team that had already won at Alabama and Auburn. The Jacketrs survived some horrendous foul shooting to win in OT.

Clemson added a fairly impressive road win at Charlotte, winning 71-70. The Tigers led most of the way, but the 49ers tied it at 67. Rivers scored a go-ahead basket, Stitt added two free throws and Charlotte hit a 3-pointer in the final seconds to make the final margin one.

Also a fairly lackluster win by NC State at home over High Point.

It's going to get tougher -- that Miami-UConn game is Sunday, not Saturday as my schedule suggested. Virginia Tech has a fairly important game with Seton Hall in Puerto Rico.

Next week, I suspect Boston College will lose twice in the semifinals and consolation game of the preseason NIT. Maryland is a longshot againsty Michigan State in Orlando. Virginia is likely to lose at Syracuse. There will be a few other tough tourney matchups.

There are some losses ahead.