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bludvlman
11-16-2008, 11:26 PM
I know its only been three games but the Freshmen seem to be taking a deep back seat to the rest of the roster. Besides adding on in blow outs the three Freshmen have had little to no impact. Should we be concerned? Elliot was supposed to make an impact right away, Plumlee started game 1 but hasn't seen much time since, while Olek was a project so I'm not that concerned about his situation.

Jumbo
11-16-2008, 11:49 PM
I know its only been three games but the Freshmen seem to be taking a deep back seat to the rest of the roster. Besides adding on in blow outs the three Freshmen have had little to no impact. Should we be concerned? Elliot was supposed to make an impact right away, Plumlee started game 1 but hasn't seen much time since, while Olek was a project so I'm not that concerned about his situation.

No, you shouldn't be concerned. Elliot wasn't "supposed to" make an impact right away. There's no such thing as "supposed to." All three guys have a lot to learn. Some freshmen "get it" right away, and K gives them major minutes. But plenty of other freshmen -- including guys who eventually became major players at Duke -- started their careers slowly. Williams and Plumlee, in particular, will develop over the course of the season, and I'm sure both will have a chance to contribute. But Duke found itself in a major battle today, and K didn't have time to mess around with guys who are still adjusting to the college game, especially when he has nine other experienced guys ready to go.

NYC Duke Fan
11-17-2008, 06:50 AM
No, you shouldn't be concerned. Elliot wasn't "supposed to" make an impact right away. There's no such thing as "supposed to." All three guys have a lot to learn. Some freshmen "get it" right away, and K gives them major minutes. But plenty of other freshmen -- including guys who eventually became major players at Duke -- started their careers slowly. Williams and Plumlee, in particular, will develop over the course of the season, and I'm sure both will have a chance to contribute. But Duke found itself in a major battle today, and K didn't have time to mess around with guys who are still adjusting to the college game, especially when he has nine other experienced guys ready to go.

I think that your explanation is right on target. That said it probably means that these are not the impact players that maybe others thought that they might be....they will all develop I am sure. I know that Penn is not a top 25 team , but I saw that 2 of UNC's freshmen had big games.

dougc33
11-17-2008, 07:06 AM
I think that your explanation is right on target. That said it probably means that these are not the impact players that maybe others thought that they might be....they will all develop I am sure. I know that Penn is not a top 25 team , but I saw that 2 of UNC's freshmen had big games.

Look, there is a big difference between Penn (Sagarin #275 last year) and URI (Sagarin #64 last year, right behind Ga Tech). Comparing the 2 opponents of Duke and UNC this last weekend is not relevant. And, therefore, comparing the performances of the respective freshman is not relevant.

yancem
11-17-2008, 07:37 AM
Look, there is a big difference between Penn (Sagarin #275 last year) and URI (Sagarin #64 last year, right behind Ga Tech). Comparing the 2 opponents of Duke and UNC this last weekend is not relevant. And, therefore, comparing the performances of the respective freshman is not relevant.

Not to mention that the quality of the opponent is less important than the quality of the game. You can't compare minutes of freshman in a blow out to minutes of freshman in a razor close game. Especially when Duke was down almost the entire game. You have to also take into consideration that UNC had 3 veterans sitting out with injuries so there was even more playing time to go around.

TwoDukeTattoos
11-17-2008, 08:40 AM
During the off-season, many analysts said that Duke would be better this year simply because they're adding much needed size with Czyz and Plumlee. It didn't take long before we realized that Czyz wouldn't see much PT, at least not yet. Plumlee, however, received rave reviews during the exhibition games and even started during Duke's regular season game. Suddenly, however, he has almost completely disappeared. Does anyone have any thoughts or insight regarding this?

The two guys whom we thought might contribute enough to help Duke get to the next level have really been non-existent to this point. So, bascially, Duke isn't much more than a Demarcus-less team.

tbyers11
11-17-2008, 09:01 AM
During the off-season, many analysts said that Duke would be better this year simply because they're adding much needed size with Czyz and Plumlee. It didn't take long before we realized that Czyz wouldn't see much PT, at least not yet. Plumlee, however, received rave reviews during the exhibition games and even started during Duke's regular season game. Suddenly, however, he has almost completely disappeared. Does anyone have any thoughts or insight regarding this?

The two guys whom we thought might contribute enough to help Duke get to the next level have really been non-existent to this point. So, bascially, Duke isn't much more than a Demarcus-less team.

Man, it is only 3 games into the season. The freshmen have been practicing with the team for less than a month. Some teams haven't even played a game yet.

Plumlee got a lot of burn in the first game against Presbyterian and for the most part he looked lost out there. His minutes were cut greatly in the GSU game as Coach K tried, rightfully so I believe, to get a more cohesive effort from the team. He didn't play much yesterday in an extremely close game against a team that played without a post presence for the majority of the game.

Plumlee showed a lot of potential in early practices but practice is much different than playing in a game. He was ranked highly but I don't think many people thought he would be an immediate impact player from day one. He and Elliot will develop over the course of the season and will contribute as the season goes on. I think it is too early to be worried about anything.

Enjoy the feeling of a great win against a URI team that played out of its head.

Dar95
11-17-2008, 09:24 AM
I, for one, am pretty psyched that for once we have sufficient depth (and health) in the returning class to be able to ease the frosh in slowly. Hopefully they will get to a point where they can contribute in big spots later in the year, but if they don't, we've still got 9 guys who can get the job done.

Ultrarunner
11-17-2008, 09:24 AM
So, bascially, Duke isn't much more than a Demarcus-less team.

I think it might be a little early in the season to be getting vapors over this team.

We have excellent skilled leadership (Singler, Scheyer) who were the difference between a W and an L yesterday. This leadership has not been present for several years. While I love Markie, who would you rather driving the ball at the end of the game - Kyle or Markie? Who is more likely to commit a charge and who is likely to hit the freethrows when he gets to the line? Scheyer and Singler have an additional year of maturity and both stepped up in a significant way.

The freshmen are learning and appear to be learning quickly. Both Plumlee and Williams were somewhat overmatched in yesterday's game. They'll learn from that as well, grow, improve and provide more help as the season progresses.

Traditionally, the biggest jump for players is between the freshman and sophomore seasons. Much of this is due to consolidating all the things that they learned in that first year about positioning and switching on the defensive end and what role and responsibility they have at the offensive end - along with understanding the roles of every other player on the floor and the team. Expecting that kind of transformation from freshmen three games into the season is not reasonable. Yes, Singler and Scheyer both did it but both are exceptional basketball players (not necessarily as athletes though both are often underrated as athletes).

Personally, I'll just watch the team develop, enjoy the effort and see what the future brings rather than borrow trouble today.

Also, I think we just saw how much Paulus means to this team. He has a healthy hand and hits a couple of clutch threes, how much does this game change?

loran16
11-17-2008, 09:45 PM
So, I was thinking after the URI game, when i made a comment in snrubchat during the 2nd half that went something like "why aren't we using miles or elliot?"

JBDuke i believe it was made the comment that it was high pressure time, they were rookies, and EWill had looked pretty lost before. So Clearly it wasn't right to use the two.

Still, I can't believe that to be the case, unless Duke is in real trouble. I'm a senior here at duke. And in my four years of watching recruits in Durham I've learned one thing:

If K isn't using a recruit in his freshman year...he will not be used that much if at all. And with the way that our recruits are being used this year, it would mean a total bust of a class.

And this bothers me.

Elliot was a highly ranked 5 star shooting guard. He's getting near to no play whatsoever.
Miles is a 4 star power forward. Now i'll admit my opinion of Miles is a bit biased (I have what others have called an irrational hatred of lance thomas). He showed promise early on. Now...nothing.

Last year we had Singler and Nolan turn up as golden. Both had real shots. We need to give the new guys shots.

I don't care if we feel zoubek and lance can handle the PF position, or if we feel we have enough in the guard rotation. We need to find a place for these guys. Czyz is a long range if that project, i get it. But these guys need to help us THIS YEAR. Or they won't ever be a help at all. And god knows I want us to win in the near future.

BlueintheFace
11-17-2008, 10:28 PM
I've given this a lot of thought and pursued every logical avenue of consequence to its complete conclusion .... and have settled on one incontrovertible truth... the sky is indeed falling.

shadowfax336
11-17-2008, 10:34 PM
If K isn't using a recruit in his freshman year...he will not be used that much if at all. And with the way that our recruits are being used this year, it would mean a total bust of a class.

And this bothers me.
...
But these guys need to help us THIS YEAR. Or they won't ever be a help at all. And god knows I want us to win in the near future.

Miles is averaging 9.7 minutes a game through 3 games....
E-will is averaging 12 minutes a game through 3 games...

Through 3 games here were the minutes per game averages for a few players.


Chris Carawell 11mpg
Lee Melchionni 7 mpg
Carlos Boozer 12 mpg
Chris Collins 9 mpg
Demarcus Nelson 13 mpg


Whats the point? Its 3 GAMES!!!!!!!!!

Jumbo
11-17-2008, 10:40 PM
So, I was thinking after the URI game, when i made a comment in snrubchat during the 2nd half that went something like "why aren't we using miles or elliot?"

JBDuke i believe it was made the comment that it was high pressure time, they were rookies, and EWill had looked pretty lost before. So Clearly it wasn't right to use the two.

Still, I can't believe that to be the case, unless Duke is in real trouble. I'm a senior here at duke. And in my four years of watching recruits in Durham I've learned one thing:

If K isn't using a recruit in his freshman year...he will not be used that much if at all. And with the way that our recruits are being used this year, it would mean a total bust of a class.

And this bothers me.

Elliot was a highly ranked 5 star shooting guard. He's getting near to no play whatsoever.
Miles is a 4 star power forward. Now i'll admit my opinion of Miles is a bit biased (I have what others have called an irrational hatred of lance thomas). He showed promise early on. Now...nothing.

Last year we had Singler and Nolan turn up as golden. Both had real shots. We need to give the new guys shots.

I don't care if we feel zoubek and lance can handle the PF position, or if we feel we have enough in the guard rotation. We need to find a place for these guys. Czyz is a long range if that project, i get it. But these guys need to help us THIS YEAR. Or they won't ever be a help at all. And god knows I want us to win in the near future.

Oh geez, here we go. I didn't want to do it. I assumed people would realize that it's been THREE GAMES and that all freshmen are not equal. I assumed people would understand that Duke has a number of veteran players who have improved, that we're trying to win games and that those veterans can hold the fort down right now. I assumed people would understand that freshmen can improve as the season goes along.

But, apparently, not only do the freshmen have to play right now, they have to play right now or they'll never amount to anything. Or, at least that's what four years at Duke teaches a senior, apparently.

Thankfully, some of us have followed Duke for longer than four years. And we know of tons of players who didn't get much time as freshmen, only to become quite valuable later in their careers. So, here's a partial list just from the K era. Enjoy:

John Smith -- played on 18 games as a frosh, averaging 5.1 minutes. As a soph, he started 30 of 32 games, averaged 22.5 mpg and scored 11.9 ppg.

Phil Henderson -- played in only eight games as a freshman. Numbers went up every year, to the point where as a senior, he averaged 31.5 mpg and 18.5 ppg. (Oh, and he had a pretty memorable dunk.)

Alaa Abdelnaby -- Played 29 games as a frosh, averaging 6.6 mpg and 3.7 ppg. By the time he was a senior, he was a starter who averaged 15.1 ppg and 6.6 rpg, and became a first-round draft pick.

Brian Davis -- Averaged 8.4 mpg and 2.3 ppg in 29 games as a frosh. By the time he was a senior, he was merely a starter on one of the greatest teams in history, averaging 30.9 mpg and 11.2 ppg. He played in the NBA, too.

Thomas Hill -- I love this one, because as a frosh, he played in 34 games, got 12.6 minutes a night and averaged 3.4 ppg. Not bad. But guess how he started his career? That's right, by barely playing in close games. His first 10 games included three 3-minute performances, a 2-minute outing and a 1-minute showing. By the end of the year, he was getting double-digit minutes. He started on two national title teams, averaged in double figures during each of the last three seasons of his career and ... never mind, everyone knows what Thomas Hill did at Duke.

Marty Clark -- Barely played as a frosh (23 games, 104 minutes). By his senior year, he was the top reserve on a team that reached the national title game, averaging 8.1 ppg and 21.1 mpg.

Erik Meek -- 24 games, 6.0 mpg as a frosh. By his senior year, he was a starter who averaged 28.7 mpg, 10.3 ppg and 8.3 rpg.

Chris Collins -- 12.7 mpg, 5.8 ppg as a frosh. 31 mpg and 10 ppg as a soph. Senior year? 34.6 mpg, 16.3 ppg.

Greg Newton -- 5.5 mpg, 1.1 ppg as a frosh. Started as a junior, averaging 12.2 ppg and 8.2 rpg. As a senior, he was a starter until, well, he had a whole bunch of issues. Still averaged 10.4 ppg.

Carmen Wallace -- 17 games, 45 total minutes as a frosh. Key reserve later in his career -- 20.7 mpg in an injury-riddled junior season, 12.1 mpg as a senior.

Nate James -- On second thought, he's not really fair to include, since his limited PT as a frosh was largely due to injury.

Casey Sanders -- Played 5.8 mpg in 25 games as a frosh. Filled in admirably for Boozer as a junior. By his senior year, he started 21 games, averaged 5.2 rpg and blocked 1.6 shots a game.

Lee Melchionni -- Went from 3.4 mpg as a frosh to a very serviceable player as a junior and a senior.

Dave McClure -- Averaged 7.4 mpg in only 25 games as a frosh, despite playing on a depleted team. I think it's fair to say he has a larger role now.

There are others. What's even more ridiculous is that this is a really deep team, with or without the freshmen. A lot of Duke frosh played a lot because there weren't a lot of upperclassmen around (especially this decade). K has the luxury of bringing this group along slowly. And -- oh yeah -- did I mention that they've only played THREE GAMES??? Sheesh. The list of guys who barely played in a ridiculously close game in November is incredibly extensive. The fact that Plumlee and Williams didn't see much time against Rhode Island (and might not be a big part of the rotation in some other early games) means absolutely nothing.

CameronCrazy'11
11-18-2008, 12:48 AM
But....but....but....I went outside today and I swear the sky was closer than normal. I think it's falling.

dukelifer
11-18-2008, 05:44 AM
I think that your explanation is right on target. That said it probably means that these are not the impact players that maybe others thought that they might be....they will all develop I am sure. I know that Penn is not a top 25 team , but I saw that 2 of UNC's freshmen had big games.

I suspect if Singler and McClure were both hurt (ala Hansblah and Ginyard) we would have seen a bit more of Duke's frosh as well. That said, didn't Ewill grab 11 boards in 14 minutes against Ga Southern- that is a pretty impressive performance- even better than UNC's big men :D

MarkD83
11-18-2008, 05:48 AM
that at the Ga Southern game there was someone wearing number 20 that had 11 rebounds. Also at the URI game, Duke was not getting any rebounds and that same number 20 came in and immeadiately jumped out of the gym to get a key rebound. I believe this was also around the time that Duke started playing better near the end of the half.

I guess number 20 can't be a freshmen because it sounds like none of Duke's freshmen have played in the first three games. :)

Thank you dukelifer for noticing this also.

Genedoc
11-18-2008, 09:24 AM
Oh geez, here we go. I didn't want to do it. I assumed people would realize that it's been THREE GAMES and that all freshmen are not equal. I assumed people would understand that Duke has a number of veteran players who have improved, that we're trying to win games and that those veterans can hold the fort down right now. I assumed people would understand that freshmen can improve as the season goes along.

But, apparently, not only do the freshmen have to play right now, they have to play right now or they'll never amount to anything. Or, at least that's what four years at Duke teaches a senior, apparently.

Thankfully, some of us have followed Duke for longer than four years. And we know of tons of players who didn't get much time as freshmen, only to become quite valuable later in their careers. So, here's a partial list just from the K era. Enjoy:

John Smith -- played on 18 games as a frosh, averaging 5.1 minutes. As a soph, he started 30 of 32 games, averaged 22.5 mpg and scored 11.9 ppg.

Phil Henderson -- played in only eight games as a freshman. Numbers went up every year, to the point where as a senior, he averaged 31.5 mpg and 18.5 ppg. (Oh, and he had a pretty memorable dunk.)

Alaa Abdelnaby -- Played 29 games as a frosh, averaging 6.6 mpg and 3.7 ppg. By the time he was a senior, he was a starter who averaged 15.1 ppg and 6.6 rpg, and became a first-round draft pick.

Brian Davis -- Averaged 8.4 mpg and 2.3 ppg in 29 games as a frosh. By the time he was a senior, he was merely a starter on one of the greatest teams in history, averaging 30.9 mpg and 11.2 ppg. He played in the NBA, too.

Thomas Hill -- I love this one, because as a frosh, he played in 34 games, got 12.6 minutes a night and averaged 3.4 ppg. Not bad. But guess how he started his career? That's right, by barely playing in close games. His first 10 games included three 3-minute performances, a 2-minute outing and a 1-minute showing. By the end of the year, he was getting double-digit minutes. He started on two national title teams, averaged in double figures during each of the last three seasons of his career and ... never mind, everyone knows what Thomas Hill did at Duke.

Marty Clark -- Barely played as a frosh (23 games, 104 minutes). By his senior year, he was the top reserve on a team that reached the national title game, averaging 8.1 ppg and 21.1 mpg.

Erik Meek -- 24 games, 6.0 mpg as a frosh. By his senior year, he was a starter who averaged 28.7 mpg, 10.3 ppg and 8.3 rpg.

Chris Collins -- 12.7 mpg, 5.8 ppg as a frosh. 31 mpg and 10 ppg as a soph. Senior year? 34.6 mpg, 16.3 ppg.

Greg Newton -- 5.5 mpg, 1.1 ppg as a frosh. Started as a junior, averaging 12.2 ppg and 8.2 rpg. As a senior, he was a starter until, well, he had a whole bunch of issues. Still averaged 10.4 ppg.

Carmen Wallace -- 17 games, 45 total minutes as a frosh. Key reserve later in his career -- 20.7 mpg in an injury-riddled junior season, 12.1 mpg as a senior.

Nate James -- On second thought, he's not really fair to include, since his limited PT as a frosh was largely due to injury.

Casey Sanders -- Played 5.8 mpg in 25 games as a frosh. Filled in admirably for Boozer as a junior. By his senior year, he started 21 games, averaged 5.2 rpg and blocked 1.6 shots a game.

Lee Melchionni -- Went from 3.4 mpg as a frosh to a very serviceable player as a junior and a senior.

Dave McClure -- Averaged 7.4 mpg in only 25 games as a frosh, despite playing on a depleted team. I think it's fair to say he has a larger role now.

There are others. What's even more ridiculous is that this is a really deep team, with or without the freshmen. A lot of Duke frosh played a lot because there weren't a lot of upperclassmen around (especially this decade). K has the luxury of bringing this group along slowly. And -- oh yeah -- did I mention that they've only played THREE GAMES??? Sheesh. The list of guys who barely played in a ridiculously close game in November is incredibly extensive. The fact that Plumlee and Williams didn't see much time against Rhode Island (and might not be a big part of the rotation in some other early games) means absolutely nothing.

How do you do it, Jumbo? How do you answer the same questions, the same critiques, the same points over and over again, year after year? I have this vision of your desktop with a decision tree on it such that, when one of the Same Five topics comes up, you can scroll down to an already typed response from one of the hundred other times you've had to make the same point and cut/copy/paste.

I was lucky enough to attend a whole bunch o' games in my 6 years in graduate school at Duke, and even luckier to have gotten tickets in Cameron shortly thereafter. My greatest memories aren't the Duke/UNC games I saw, though they were certainly memorable. Instead, I remember games past that were just like Sunday's game. I had a front row seat when a Freshman on a loaded team banked in a 3 ball with 15 second left in the game to beat DePaul in 1999. Several of us are convinced we invented the "Our House" chant that game, and if we didn't invent it, we damn sure perfected. A few months later I had a seat for the single most amazing game I've ever seen in Cameron. It was against Clemson of all teams. That juggernaut of a Blue Devil team was coasting against a chippy Clemson squad, and the game was tied at 30 when Adam Allenspach set a screen on Trajan that left the senior in a bloody heap. The crowd went absolutely bananas. Immediately, a "Show No Mercy" chant got started - the only time I ever remember hearing or participating in that chant when we weren't even winning. The next 7 minutes of basketball were mythical, as Duke opened the biggest can of whoop ### I've ever seen and went on a 26-0 run. From 30-30 to 56-30 in 7 minutes. And I'll never forget it. It doesn't erase the pain of losing to UCONN in the title game a month later, but it was still a magical evening.

I don't post nearly as much here as I used to, and you guys aren't missing much as a result. But when I stopped worrying about the polls, the haters, the nattering nabobs of negativism, K's rotation, and the Duke gets all the calls contingency and started enjoying the ride again, I rediscovered my love of Duke basketball. Each and every time we set foot into Cameron with K, we're living history. In 20-30-40 years, we're going to tell people what it was like, much the same way people now talk with reverence about what it was like to sit in the Men's Gym and then later the Pauley Pavilion and watch John Wooden work. Or the way people in Alabama still talk about Bear Bryant as if he were a Greek God. This isn't going to last forever. Duke will one day no longer be Duke. It happens to everyone, whether its ND football or Oklahoma football or UCLA hoops - everyone slumps, and sometimes, they don't come back. Enjoy the ride in the Bentley and quit whining that the custom leather seats aren't stitched the way you'd like them.

/rant

Kilby
11-18-2008, 09:43 AM
Thanks for the walk down memory lane. Would Greg Koubeck be a good one. Highly rated freshman. I don't remember him getting any significant time unil he found it in his senior year.

Bluegrassdevil
11-18-2008, 09:55 AM
Did anyone truely think that they were going to play a signifigant role this year? I think Coach is the best, but he has never just thrown freshman staight into the lineup unless they are just playing completely up to the level or above the upperclassmen. i.e.. Singler, Deng, JWill, ect.. I don't believe that he is going to go much futher than 7-8 deep by the time ACC play starts. I would love to be wrong, but past history is on my side.

Go Devils

jipops
11-18-2008, 10:02 AM
There seems to be a recurring theme in all of these panic posts that annually come about. Fans repeatedly let outside superfluous expectations form their own. It also seems to be the younger fans who didn't follow Duke basketball before the late 90's, before the days of early entry from Duke. Those were the days where we didn't have such enormous unrealistic expectations of any freshmen. Those were the days before massive amounts of internet speculation and build-up of individual players. The immediate individual success of freshmen players such as Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry and Grant Hill did not set precedent of expectations for other incoming freshmen down the road.

The point is, guys play when they're ready to play or if there are no other options at the time. I'll never see the point of playing a game for the sake of practice over the sake of winning it. Apparently K doesn't either. Elliot has a lot of ability but has a ton of weaknesses to work on as well. Once he figures out a role in the offense (which is still in need of work) we'll probably see him more and more. Miles had just come into his own at the high school level. Now he's expected to play a major role at the college level immediately?

It may be best to stop panicking and pay attention to how things develop throughout the season.

COYS
11-18-2008, 10:15 AM
Look, there is a big difference between Penn (Sagarin #275 last year) and URI (Sagarin #64 last year, right behind Ga Tech). Comparing the 2 opponents of Duke and UNC this last weekend is not relevant. And, therefore, comparing the performances of the respective freshman is not relevant.

I was actually going to mention these same statistics. In fact, I think you could even make the argument that if Penn had a player shoot as well from three as Baron did plus add in some foul trouble for Danny Green that UNC could have lost this game.

But, I really hate trying to compare us to UNC, especially our freshman. Injuries, etc. necessitated major minutes for the Tools' frosh on a team that has less front-court upper-classman depth than our team. With Hansblah out they've got one upper classs big man. We've got Lance and Zoubs plus McClure in addition to Kyle and they're all healthy. As for our backcourt, well, everyone is aware of our depth there. Obviously, if Williams or Miles earns more minutes, they'll get them. But until that time comes, we can afford to bring them on slowly and there's nothing wrong with that. I understand that people want to see what the freshmen can do because they're new and unknown. But at the same time, I'd much rather see our veterans gel and establish chemistry because while the frosh can make a significant contribution and potentially put us over the top, we will ultimately go only as far as our veterans can take us.

Duke79UNLV77
11-18-2008, 10:21 AM
a number of posters panic at the least thing. at the same time, others seem to rationalize and defensively attack any stated concern. while posters like sumner lend a great historical perspective, i would venture that the truth often lies between the extremes.

for example, it's just a fact that the collective contributions of the freshman class in the last game were relatively small compared to most years. why not concede this? it's also a fact that davis and zeller for unc looked pretty darn good.

at the same time, it's also clear that williams, for example, has tons of athleticism but his skills are raw. he could develop a ton.

as for a couple of examples jumbo listed, i believe henderson's freshman contributions were limited by academic issues. alaa surged his senior year because, to paraphrase alaa himself, he looked into the stands one day and realized there were a lot of nba scouts up there. he could have been a lot better from day 1 if he had applied himself fully.

Edouble
11-18-2008, 10:21 AM
I was lucky enough to attend a whole bunch o' games in my 6 years in graduate school at Duke, and even luckier to have gotten tickets in Cameron shortly thereafter. My greatest memories aren't the Duke/UNC games I saw, though they were certainly memorable. Instead, I remember games past that were just like Sunday's game. I had a front row seat when a Freshman on a loaded team banked in a 3 ball with 15 second left in the game to beat DePaul in 1999. Several of us are convinced we invented the "Our House" chant that game, and if we didn't invent it, we damn sure perfected. A few months later I had a seat for the single most amazing game I've ever seen in Cameron. It was against Clemson of all teams. That juggernaut of a Blue Devil team was coasting against a chippy Clemson squad, and the game was tied at 30 when Adam Allenspach set a screen on Trajan that left the senior in a bloody heap. The crowd went absolutely bananas. Immediately, a "Show No Mercy" chant got started - the only time I ever remember hearing or participating in that chant when we weren't even winning. The next 7 minutes of basketball were mythical, as Duke opened the biggest can of whoop ### I've ever seen and went on a 26-0 run. From 30-30 to 56-30 in 7 minutes. And I'll never forget it. It doesn't erase the pain of losing to UCONN in the title game a month later, but it was still a magical evening.


Just a small point, your ordering of the games is backwards. The correct order is Clemson (I think February 1999, Trajan falls and chips a tooth, Coach K is furious, grabs Brand and Battier's jerseys and yells at them to "Get Physical Out There!!!"), UCONN (April 1999, I still have bad dreams about that one), then DePaul, (I think November, 1999, the next season, the "Our House" cheer is invented and freshman Horvath nails the bank shot).

jipops
11-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Did anyone truely think that they were going to play a signifigant role this year? I think Coach is the best, but he has never just thrown freshman staight into the lineup unless they are just playing completely up to the level or above the upperclassmen. i.e.. Singler, Deng, JWill, ect.. I don't believe that he is going to go much futher than 7-8 deep by the time ACC play starts. I would love to be wrong, but past history is on my side.

Go Devils

I strongly disagree. What history are you referring to? 2000 and after where there were only a certain # of guys available to play at the ACC level to begin with? If everyone stays relatively healthy throughout the season who exactly would K drop from the lineup to go 7-8 deep? McClure? - NO. Lance? - NO. Paulus? - NO. Zoubek? - obviously not as K is intent on developing him and getting him back into game shape as he's in the starting lineup. Plumlee? - I'd bet the bank he finds a role, we obviously need the added presence and he's already a capable defender down there. Pocius - he's a perimeter threat and has shown glimpses of defensive improvement already, he's gonna play. Williams - he can defend and obviously rebound, two aspects that are of great benefit, he'll play.

As long as everyone stays healthy, I see no less than 10 guys, possibly 11, being used in the rotation beginning ACC play. You'll see.

Genedoc
11-18-2008, 10:27 AM
Just a small point, your ordering of the games is backwards. The correct order is Clemson (I think February 1999, Trajan falls and chips a tooth, Coach K is furious, grabs Brand and Battier's jerseys and yells at them to "Get Physical Out There!!!"), UCONN (April 1999, I still have bad dreams about that one), then DePaul, (I think November, 1999, the next season, the "Our House" cheer is invented and freshman Horvath nails the bank shot).

You're right...same calendar year, different seasons. Must be the side effects of actively trying to suppress the memory of that UCONN game.

Constantstrain 81
11-18-2008, 10:32 AM
I don't see the issue.

EW is a guard looking for time in a crowded field. Henderson, Scheyer, Smith, Paulus, (and even Marty) are all getting minutes. Who comes out? Not Scheyer (when you are trailing the entire game).

For Miles: Zoubek, Thomas, and McClure are all playing solid minutes. Singler was on the floor longer in the RI game. Who comes out?

Both players will find their niche. It will take more practice time and more team bonding time. Both are around 10 minutes a game now. That may be what it is.

Kedsy
11-18-2008, 11:33 AM
As long as everyone stays healthy, I see no less than 10 guys, possibly 11, being used in the rotation beginning ACC play. You'll see.

I'll be happy with 9.

lifelongdevil
11-18-2008, 11:47 AM
please please don't mention uconn 1999.....ever

Jumbo
11-18-2008, 12:02 PM
How do you do it, Jumbo? How do you answer the same questions, the same critiques, the same points over and over again, year after year? I have this vision of your desktop with a decision tree on it such that, when one of the Same Five topics comes up, you can scroll down to an already typed response from one of the hundred other times you've had to make the same point and cut/copy/paste.

I think it's mostly because I'm an idiot. And I might be a masochist.


That juggernaut of a Blue Devil team was coasting against a chippy Clemson squad, and the game was tied at 30 when Adam Allenspach set a screen on Trajan that left the senior in a bloody heap. The crowd went absolutely bananas. Immediately, a "Show No Mercy" chant got started - the only time I ever remember hearing or participating in that chant when we weren't even winning. The next 7 minutes of basketball were mythical, as Duke opened the biggest can of whoop ### I've ever seen and went on a 26-0 run. From 30-30 to 56-30 in 7 minutes. And I'll never forget it. It doesn't erase the pain of losing to UCONN in the title game a month later, but it was still a magical evening.

I actually think it was Andrius Jurkunas, and I only remember that because I briefly had a "deportation" chant going before it was drowned out by "show no mercy." And yeah, the run that followed was simply staggering.

smackedownz
11-18-2008, 12:03 PM
agreed. it ends now.

jimsumner
11-18-2008, 01:33 PM
The common theme of all the sky-is-falling-threads is the highly dubious assumption that what we're seeing in mid-November is what we're going to see all season. Freshmen not playing now? Forget about 'em. Zoubek hasn't recovered from a broken foot? Write him off. Only 11 minutes for Paulus? Injury-sminjury. He's in K's doghouse.


BTW, Jumbo, let me suggest that you take Phil Henderson off your master list. He was academically ineligible the second semester of his freshman season, which is why he only played eight games. He actually had a big game off the bench against nationally-ranked Alabama right before the suspension and was pushing for increased PT.

Clipsfan
11-18-2008, 02:06 PM
A few months later I had a seat for the single most amazing game I've ever seen in Cameron. It was against Clemson of all teams. That juggernaut of a Blue Devil team was coasting against a chippy Clemson squad, and the game was tied at 30 when Adam Allenspach set a screen on Trajan that left the senior in a bloody heap. The crowd went absolutely bananas. Immediately, a "Show No Mercy" chant got started - the only time I ever remember hearing or participating in that chant when we weren't even winning. The next 7 minutes of basketball were mythical, as Duke opened the biggest can of whoop ### I've ever seen and went on a 26-0 run. From 30-30 to 56-30 in 7 minutes. And I'll never forget it. It doesn't erase the pain of losing to UCONN in the title game a month later, but it was still a magical evening.

That was an experience I'll never forget and still gives me chills.

As for the game on Sunday, I love it when our team does well, but I also love seeing the team come through against an opponent who is giving it everything they have. Games like RI are why I love college basketball, and rather than lamenting all the things which could have been better I'm happy that I enjoyed the game far more than I expected to enjoy it due to RI's performance. Even better, we won!

JDev
11-18-2008, 02:12 PM
Do you see Miles moving back into the starting line-up as the season progresses and he gains more experience, or does K continue to go with an older and seemingly improved Zoubek? (question directed at anyone)

throatybeard
11-18-2008, 03:26 PM
I don't post nearly as much here as I used to, and you guys aren't missing much as a result. But when I stopped worrying about the polls, the haters, the nattering nabobs of negativism, K's rotation, and the Duke gets all the calls contingency and started enjoying the ride again, I rediscovered my love of Duke basketball. Each and every time we set foot into Cameron with K, we're living history. In 20-30-40 years, we're going to tell people what it was like, much the same way people now talk with reverence about what it was like to sit in the Men's Gym and then later the Pauley Pavilion and watch John Wooden work. Or the way people in Alabama still talk about Bear Bryant as if he were a Greek God. This isn't going to last forever. Duke will one day no longer be Duke. It happens to everyone, whether its ND football or Oklahoma football or UCLA hoops - everyone slumps, and sometimes, they don't come back. Enjoy the ride in the Bentley and quit whining that the custom leather seats aren't stitched the way you'd like them.

/rant

I wonder if Bear or Wooden suffered from such a high ratio of whiners and complainers to level-headed fans. There's no way to know, I suppose, because the internet gives everyone with an axe to grind a platform on which to grind it. Things have changed fundamentally in that respect.

Bear had two 6-5 seasons (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=275) during the middle of his great run at Bama, in 1969 and 1970. I wonder if his fanbase was as full of temper tantrum-throwing and as ours has been the last few years. Or if his fans kept mechanically bringing up the exact same complaints over and over and over and over.

RepoMan
11-18-2008, 03:40 PM
Do you see Miles moving back into the starting line-up as the season progresses and he gains more experience, or does K continue to go with an older and seemingly improved Zoubek? (question directed at anyone)

Having not seen enough of Miles to have a basis for direct opinion, my guess is that whether Miles takes some of the minutes that have gone to Zoubek in the most recent two games will depend in large part on his work in practice. Personally, I am hopeful that Miles proves to be worthy of more time because it seems to me that his mobility makes his game more suited for this team. (And, this hope does not seem delusional because he must have been doing something right before the season began because he briefly was a starter -- in other words, Miles seems to have a more realistic chance at PT than, say, Olek.) I haven't studied any data, but I feel like things bogs down when Zoubek is in the game--just my impression. If Miles doesn't demonstrate sufficient improvement in practice to warrant more game time PT, I would expect to see a healthy dose of "small ball" when we move into the end of the season.

All that said, it is too early to be able to really predict much, and, since most of us don't see practice, we really are just shooting in the dark with respect to the freshman (and other players who don't regularly get PT)

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-18-2008, 03:45 PM
Not sure if this is the correct place for this question (or if it's been addressed elsewhere) but I was wondering if we've completely rejected the possibility of redshirting Czyz. I think everyone agrees that he's rawer than Eddie Murphy in a blue leather jumpsuit but that, with time, he has the tools to be very effective down the road. We're also fairly deep at the 4-5 spot this season so it seems a shame to spend a year of eligibility for the <5 minutes I'm expecting from Czyz.

If Olek is totally opposed (perhaps an eye on the Euroleague) or if K thinks there is a larger role available I can understand not doing so, but this seems like a perfect case of investing the raw season now so it can pay dividends in later seasons. Any sense a) if this has been decided and b) what factors have led to that decision?

RepoMan
11-18-2008, 04:35 PM
Not sure if this is the correct place for this question (or if it's been addressed elsewhere) but I was wondering if we've completely rejected the possibility of redshirting Czyz. I think everyone agrees that he's rawer than Eddie Murphy in a blue leather jumpsuit but that, with time, he has the tools to be very effective down the road. We're also fairly deep at the 4-5 spot this season so it seems a shame to spend a year of eligibility for the <5 minutes I'm expecting from Czyz.

If Olek is totally opposed (perhaps an eye on the Euroleague) or if K thinks there is a larger role available I can understand not doing so, but this seems like a perfect case of investing the raw season now so it can pay dividends in later seasons. Any sense a) if this has been decided and b) what factors have led to that decision?


Does the team have to decide now? Can't it simply wait, keep him on the pine, and see if injuries (or anything else) change the calculus down the road?

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-18-2008, 05:12 PM
Does the team have to decide now? Can't it simply wait, keep him on the pine, and see if injuries (or anything else) change the calculus down the road?

I can definitely see the benefit of that approach, and if that's the conscious decision of the staff I'm 100% behind it. I do worry that there will be pressure to put him in for 2-3 minutes in blowouts, etc. If that happens we basically get no redshirt and no real short term benefit either. I wish we had been able to redshirt players like Casey Sanders, Marty, etc. who came in with loads of potential but no legit chance to play more than 5 minutes of mop-up time. As I say, whatever the staff and Olek decide is certainly for the best, I'm just curious if there has been any discussion about the idea and any factors that I might not have considered.

jimsumner
11-18-2008, 05:29 PM
Czyz can only be red-shirted in case of injury.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-18-2008, 05:53 PM
That answer that question. Thanks Jim. :)

ArtVandelay
11-18-2008, 08:40 PM
Oh geez, here we go. I didn't want to do it. I assumed people would realize that it's been THREE GAMES and that all freshmen are not equal. I assumed people would understand that Duke has a number of veteran players who have improved, that we're trying to win games and that those veterans can hold the fort down right now. I assumed people would understand that freshmen can improve as the season goes along.

But, apparently, not only do the freshmen have to play right now, they have to play right now or they'll never amount to anything. Or, at least that's what four years at Duke teaches a senior, apparently.

Thankfully, some of us have followed Duke for longer than four years. And we know of tons of players who didn't get much time as freshmen, only to become quite valuable later in their careers. So, here's a partial list just from the K era. Enjoy:

John Smith -- played on 18 games as a frosh, averaging 5.1 minutes. As a soph, he started 30 of 32 games, averaged 22.5 mpg and scored 11.9 ppg.

Phil Henderson -- played in only eight games as a freshman. Numbers went up every year, to the point where as a senior, he averaged 31.5 mpg and 18.5 ppg. (Oh, and he had a pretty memorable dunk.)

Alaa Abdelnaby -- Played 29 games as a frosh, averaging 6.6 mpg and 3.7 ppg. By the time he was a senior, he was a starter who averaged 15.1 ppg and 6.6 rpg, and became a first-round draft pick.

Brian Davis -- Averaged 8.4 mpg and 2.3 ppg in 29 games as a frosh. By the time he was a senior, he was merely a starter on one of the greatest teams in history, averaging 30.9 mpg and 11.2 ppg. He played in the NBA, too.

Thomas Hill -- I love this one, because as a frosh, he played in 34 games, got 12.6 minutes a night and averaged 3.4 ppg. Not bad. But guess how he started his career? That's right, by barely playing in close games. His first 10 games included three 3-minute performances, a 2-minute outing and a 1-minute showing. By the end of the year, he was getting double-digit minutes. He started on two national title teams, averaged in double figures during each of the last three seasons of his career and ... never mind, everyone knows what Thomas Hill did at Duke.

Marty Clark -- Barely played as a frosh (23 games, 104 minutes). By his senior year, he was the top reserve on a team that reached the national title game, averaging 8.1 ppg and 21.1 mpg.

Erik Meek -- 24 games, 6.0 mpg as a frosh. By his senior year, he was a starter who averaged 28.7 mpg, 10.3 ppg and 8.3 rpg.

Chris Collins -- 12.7 mpg, 5.8 ppg as a frosh. 31 mpg and 10 ppg as a soph. Senior year? 34.6 mpg, 16.3 ppg.

Greg Newton -- 5.5 mpg, 1.1 ppg as a frosh. Started as a junior, averaging 12.2 ppg and 8.2 rpg. As a senior, he was a starter until, well, he had a whole bunch of issues. Still averaged 10.4 ppg.

Carmen Wallace -- 17 games, 45 total minutes as a frosh. Key reserve later in his career -- 20.7 mpg in an injury-riddled junior season, 12.1 mpg as a senior.

Nate James -- On second thought, he's not really fair to include, since his limited PT as a frosh was largely due to injury.

Casey Sanders -- Played 5.8 mpg in 25 games as a frosh. Filled in admirably for Boozer as a junior. By his senior year, he started 21 games, averaged 5.2 rpg and blocked 1.6 shots a game.

Lee Melchionni -- Went from 3.4 mpg as a frosh to a very serviceable player as a junior and a senior.

Dave McClure -- Averaged 7.4 mpg in only 25 games as a frosh, despite playing on a depleted team. I think it's fair to say he has a larger role now.

There are others. What's even more ridiculous is that this is a really deep team, with or without the freshmen. A lot of Duke frosh played a lot because there weren't a lot of upperclassmen around (especially this decade). K has the luxury of bringing this group along slowly. And -- oh yeah -- did I mention that they've only played THREE GAMES??? Sheesh. The list of guys who barely played in a ridiculously close game in November is incredibly extensive. The fact that Plumlee and Williams didn't see much time against Rhode Island (and might not be a big part of the rotation in some other early games) means absolutely nothing.

While I 100% agree with you on the "let's not get worried about the freshman after 3 games" score, I will quibble with one thing here, which I realize is a common point of discussion. The comparisons to the way freshman contributed in the 80s and even early 90s are of somewhat limited usefulness in this day in age, when many of the dominant programs have "impact" freshmen. This is obviously due to a variety of factors not worth getting into here. The fact is that Duke is an elite level program, so I do think it's reasonable for fans to wonder why other programs have impact freshman while Duke does not (Part of the answer is that we didn't land Greg Monroe, but that's an aside). Now, just because it's reasonable doesn't make it right. Or realistic. Which is why I generally agree with you - obviously we don't need an impact freshman every season and it's still way too soon to tell if E-Mail or Miles will become that guy, although I actually suspect that neither of them will this season. The better response than comparing to prior Duke freshman is to point out that you can't expect that sort of contribution from a freshman (absent an absolute stud) on such a veteran-laden club (see, e.g., Florida's title teams, Kansas last year, etc).

Kedsy
11-18-2008, 08:53 PM
I wonder if Bear or Wooden suffered from such a high ratio of whiners and complainers to level-headed fans. There's no way to know, I suppose, because the internet gives everyone with an axe to grind a platform on which to grind it. Things have changed fundamentally in that respect.

Bear had two 6-5 seasons (http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=275) during the middle of his great run at Bama, in 1969 and 1970. I wonder if his fanbase was as full of temper tantrum-throwing and as ours has been the last few years. Or if his fans kept mechanically bringing up the exact same complaints over and over and over and over.

I don't know, but I'm sure they did. Success breeds whining.

ACCBBallFan
11-18-2008, 08:59 PM
Czyz can only be red-shirted in case of injury. I am sure the Duke medical staff could come up with something that needs fixing, curvature of the spine which more than 90% of people have, freshmanitis, whatever.

jimsumner
11-18-2008, 09:50 PM
"The fact is that Duke is an elite level program, so I do think it's reasonable for fans to wonder why other programs have impact freshman while Duke does not"

Was Kyle Singler not an impact freshman last year? Or Jon Scheyer the season before? J.J. Redick in 2003 or Luol Deng in 2004. Greg Paulus led the ACC in assists as a freshman in 2006. Seems like an impact to me.

ArtVandelay
11-18-2008, 10:02 PM
Jim, I meant this season. Totally agree that those other players were impact freshmen. I said that it's unrealistic to expect to have a program to have an impact freshman every year. What I meant when I said it was reasonable is that on any given year people will look around and see impact freshmen at other programs and wonder why Duke doesn't have someone like that if we don't. I don't think that's the right approach; my only point was that you need an apples-to-apples comparison. I don't think it's wrong to compare what our freshman are doing to freshman at other schools now as opposed to freshmen at Duke 15-20 years ago.

tbyers11
11-19-2008, 08:56 AM
A few months later I had a seat for the single most amazing game I've ever seen in Cameron. It was against Clemson of all teams. That juggernaut of a Blue Devil team was coasting against a chippy Clemson squad, and the game was tied at 30 when Adam Allenspach set a screen on Trajan that left the senior in a bloody heap. The crowd went absolutely bananas. Immediately, a "Show No Mercy" chant got started - the only time I ever remember hearing or participating in that chant when we weren't even winning. The next 7 minutes of basketball were mythical, as Duke opened the biggest can of whoop ### I've ever seen and went on a 26-0 run. From 30-30 to 56-30 in 7 minutes. And I'll never forget it. It doesn't erase the pain of losing to UCONN in the title game a month later, but it was still a magical evening.


I weighed in on the "sky is falling" attitude way back in the thread, but feel the need to join the chorus in remembering that Clemson game in 1999. That was the last home game of my senior year and the last Duke game in Cameron that I attended. I also remember it being Jurkunas that threw the elbow at Trajan because I was a few rows behind the Clemson bench and remember yelling at him if Jurkunas was Lithuanian for thug.

The utter domination in that 26-0 run that encompassed the end of the first half and beginning of the 2nd half, IIRC, was the most amazing display of basketball that I have witnessed in person. The cheer when Trajan returned from the locker room and the comments that Trajan and Taymon made after the game when they came out to address the fans are forever etched in my memory.