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Jumbo
11-16-2008, 06:51 PM
Duke prevails, 82-79. Discuss.

Bluedog
11-16-2008, 06:54 PM
Need to improve our D. Understatement of the day. Probably will miss Dmarc a lot more on the defensive end than offensive end. Although Baron was also completely on fire even when well defended. It'll be interesting to see our adjustments against SIU. Free throws saved us. Nice to see that improve from our previous game. Scheyer/Singler saved us. Only 4 assists from all the guards on our team. Need to improve that number dramatically.

nyr484
11-16-2008, 06:56 PM
This game definitely answered some questions. LT is our go-to guy in the post right now. So much for Miles starting. I don't think he played at all tonight.

And as for crunch time lineups... For offense: Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler, Thomas. For defense, switch Henderson for McClure. For FT shooting, switch Henderson for Paulus.

That guy Baron was ridiculous. I thought our defense looked a little vulnerable, but I think we were so keyed in to trying to lock up Baron that it opened things up for some of their other players. Rhode Island looked like a team that should make the tournament.

Dawun
11-16-2008, 06:58 PM
I just got back from the URI v. Duke game. That was one of the most intense game I've ever been to. Jimmy Baron lit the nets on fire. Good win for our devils. Kyle Singler and Scheyer stepped up. I have my criticisms of the team, but I'm going to savor the victory for now. Great game!

wilko
11-16-2008, 06:58 PM
uuuhm... with all due respect WTF just happened?

I was listening to a steraming broadcast so I really dont have a good feel at all. It sure was painted that that RI had the game of a lifetime..

But really... were they THAT good? or were we THAT bad?

Well, either way this is a GREAT game to win and maybe this will help the team to come together to top form with some urgency and purpose.

Cant wait to see how the team reacts...

Congrats to Rhode Island... looks like they are on tap of a heck of a year...

dukebluelemur
11-16-2008, 06:58 PM
Apart from LT and his season .273 average for the year, the team shot 28-30 from FT, good sign.

Almost as impressive as 8-9 from three :eek:

Gerald who? Foul trouble slowed him a bit, but once again, just brief flashes of what we dream of him doing consistently.

Paulus didnt do much off the bench either.

Thank god for "Singuler"/Scheyer.

BlueintheFace
11-16-2008, 06:58 PM
1) I didn't know JJ Redick got plastic surgery and enrolled at URI... how did DBR miss that

2) Jon really dragged us back in to that game with smart drives and ridiculous finishes

3) Kyle is amazing as always and the free throws were incredibly clutch (makes me feel warm and fuzzy about close games in march)

4) I am starting to notice a trend in G over the last few years. Gerald only plays pro-active dominant ball when the energy is high and the game is close. The rest of the time he seems content to take what is given to him through ball movement. Unfortunately today, when he started to feel that intensity and make the plays we wish he would make all the time, he had to deal with foul problems

5) I wasn't paying close enough attention, does somebody have a rundown of our personnel in the last 4 minutes? This game should at least partially answer most people's question of how we will deal with close game situations at the end...

BlueintheFace
11-16-2008, 06:59 PM
Apart from LT and his season .273 average for the year

Lance is on the baseball team??

huied
11-16-2008, 07:03 PM
I can forgive our defense for the most part because someone shooting lights out isn't something you can really defend. But that doesn't excuse our poor showing on offense in the first half. Something like 2-14 at one point? That's not going to get us far in March.

Jumbo
11-16-2008, 07:03 PM
I guess I'll respond to myself. Obviously, this was closer than anyone would have liked. Obviously, we had to play our key guys more than we would have liked (I think Scheyer played the entire second half). Obviously, there are some concerns.

But, first, give Rhode Island some credit. They shot out of their minds. I knew Jimmy Baron was a great shooter, but some of those threes he hit ... geez. Scheyer had this look on his face after that just said "What am I supposed to do?" He was as close to Baron as he could get, had a hand in his face, and Baron still got off fadeaway threes with that quick release. Unreal. Those were not the result of defensive breakdowns. Those were just ridiculous shots. And a number of other Rhode Island players shot better than anyone would have expected.

Duke's problems really varied by half. In the first half, the defense wasn't awful. Rhode Island got a few too many buckets in transition, but also hit some tough jumpers. Duke, on the other hand, rushed on offense, didn't move the ball, didn't spread the floor.

Duke's offense was great in the second half, by comparison. Basically, it consisted of running everything through Scheyer and Singler (who are clearly the two best players on the team right now), and they delivered. Thomas played really well in a supporting role.

The D in the second half, by contrast, was lousy. I'm not talking about on Baron, but everything. The pick and roll D was poor. The help D was really poor. The ball pressure didn't do anything to disrupt Rhode Island's flow or force turnovers. The transition D was really lacking.

There's a lot to work on. But, at least Duke showed that it could execute down te stretch of a tight game. Let's learn what we can from this and move on.

Also, I really hope people don't complain about the PT for Elliot and Plumlee. Elliot has looked lost so far this year, and this wasn't the game to break him in. And Plumlee has struggled similarly, didn't match up well with a smaller, quicker Rhode Island team, and didn't play well in his brief appearance.

On to New York!

Jumbo
11-16-2008, 07:06 PM
5) I wasn't paying close enough attention, does somebody have a rundown of our personnel in the last 4 minutes? This game should at least partially answer most people's question of how we will deal with close game situations at the end...

Here you go. To be fair, Henderson was in foul trouble, and matchups dictated some of what we saw (small Rhode Island team = more opportunities for Thomas/McClure), plus Paulus was really struggling.

Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas
55-62
57-62
57-64
59-64
61-64
61-66
63-66
63-67
63-68
65-68
65-71
68-71
Smith-Scheyer-McClure-Singler-Thomas
68-74
70-74
71-74
72-74
72-77
73-77
74-77
Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas
76-77
Smith-Scheyer-McClure-Singler-Thomas
77-77
78-77
78-78
78-79
Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas
79-79
80-79
Smith-Scheyer-McClure-Singler-Thomas
Smith-Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler
81-79
82-79
Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas
FINAL

trinity92
11-16-2008, 07:06 PM
Holy Moly that was one of the best games I've ever seen. I have never seen a guy make shot after shot like that.

Got to say, I think we played decent defense, but they just showed great patience and shot out of their minds. They played very solid defense too.

Well coached + athletic + insane shooting night= good Duke win that could have gone the other way. I think Singler fouled on the last shot (on the follow-through). Glad it wasn't called.

I think styles make fights, and this one was just set up to be a really tough game. We played a good game and so did they. I wouldn't ask too many soul-searching questions about our team, program, or anything else.

BTW, I really liked the announcing team on the ESPNU broadcast. The older guy seemed to know what he was talking about.

jkidd31
11-16-2008, 07:09 PM
I'd much rather see them play a team from a mid major (although the A-10 is one of the better conferences IMO) and get tested then play some directional school and win by 30. I'll agree with Jombo, the D was lacking in the 2nd half, except for the last 4 minutes where they seemed to tighten up. And BAron was unreal in the 2nd half. Some of those shots were very JJ'esque.

Chard
11-16-2008, 07:09 PM
At least you guys got to watch the game. Here I am at 7 expecting a game to watch and I find out it has already been played. That'll teach me to rely on the schedule DBR posted.

nyr484
11-16-2008, 07:11 PM
By the way, Paulus clocked only 11 minutes, and seemed completely incapable of guarding the quicker URI guards.

Cavlaw
11-16-2008, 07:14 PM
The stat that got my attention was that with about 7 minutes to go, the commentators noted that RI was shooting 80% in the second half. Some of that is bad defense, but even bad defense doesn't usually yield a shooting percentage that high. RI was shooting it incredibly well the entire game, which helped them keep the lead despite a fair number of turnovers.

slower
11-16-2008, 07:14 PM
BTW, I really liked the announcing team on the ESPNU broadcast. The older guy seemed to know what he was talking about.

Seriously? I thought they were pathetic. And these guys LIVE in Durham! Bucky Waters used to freaking coach Duke. But you REALLY thought they knew their stuff? Wow.

And here's a new drinking game: Take a drink every time somebody says that Player X "has no conscience" (used to describe 3-pt. shooter). Gonna be a long year. Guess I need to start listening to Bob Harris while watching.

Scheyer saved the day. Singler, as always, was money. Good game for Lance. I even thought that Zoubs played well in stretches. URI played very well and shot VERY well. Duke definitely was "out-quicked" for the most part.

BlueintheFace
11-16-2008, 07:14 PM
By the way, Paulus clocked only 11 minutes, and seemed completely incapable of guarding the quicker URI guards.

I have no idea where you get that from... he forced a few turnovers and only got beat off the dribble once. Still, it is obvious that Nolan is a great asset on defense at the end.

LetItBD08
11-16-2008, 07:16 PM
BTW, I really liked the announcing team on the ESPNU broadcast. The older guy seemed to know what he was talking about.

Older guy=Bucky Waters, Duke Basketball Coach from '69-'73. He sits on press row for a lot of games when he's in town. Really great guy to talk to.

KandG
11-16-2008, 07:16 PM
As I said earlier in the chat, if I turned on the TV and didn't know which team was ranked, I would have assumed it was the team in blue (wrong shade of blue, of course ;) ). URI was moving the ball effortlessly, penetrating effortlessly, getting every loose ball, finding open cutters, and the few times we did play good D, they made outrageous shots. Everyone will talk about the shots Baron made, but for a good part of the second half, they were beating up and down the floor constantly.

I honestly didn't recognize the Duke team out there. I know our identity is a work in progress, and URI truly played lights out, but Scheyer and Singler were the only ones who really seemed up to the moment. Thank goodness that was enough to pull this one out.

DukieInBrasil
11-16-2008, 07:17 PM
These last 3 games have been the best stretch of basketball that LT has played at Duke. His FT shooting is terrible, but otherwise he´s playing really well. SWEEEETTT LT!!

Indoor66
11-16-2008, 07:17 PM
I thought our offense was poor. Smith pounded the ball far to much and we didn't have adequate motion through most of the game.

Of course it doesn't help when you can't throw the ball in the ocean for much of the game.

huied
11-16-2008, 07:17 PM
On a positive note, we only had 9 TO's. :D

They mentioned it during the game, but I think K's decision to put Singler on Barron after the FT's was a great move. I thought the block was clean, and I'm just real glad those RHI guys weren't expecting an airball.

Not sure if anyone else is getting this feeling, but do we have chemistry issues? I realize it's early, but I feel like at this time last year our offense was already clicking.

Lulu
11-16-2008, 07:19 PM
At least you guys got to watch the game. Here I am at 7 expecting a game to watch and I find out it has already been played. That'll teach me to rely on the schedule DBR posted.

Same here. Would have been really annoying when I was just expecting cupcake blowout. Cannot believe I missed a game like this.

DukieInBrasil
11-16-2008, 07:20 PM
we gotta give our guys some props for their guts, down 6 with 3 minutes to play and they scratched out a win...

kramerbr
11-16-2008, 07:21 PM
On a positive note, we only had 9 TO's. :D

They mentioned it during the game, but I think K's decision to put Singler on Barron after the FT's was a great move. I thought the block was clean, and I'm just real glad those RHI guys weren't expecting an airball.

Not sure if anyone else is getting this feeling, but do we have chemistry issues? I realize it's early, but I feel like at this time last year our offense was already clicking.

The team lost their leader and go to guy from last year. Demarcus had a ton of experience for last years squad. I think tonight we saw Singler and Scheyer both step up.

Singler is going to have a very very good year.

Dawun
11-16-2008, 07:22 PM
URI is a solid team. They hustled on every play, and made Duke work for every basket. Early on, we were content with shooting long twos and 3s, and they weren't falling. Our transitional defense got picked apart, and Jimmy Baron lit us up in the second half. Despite all of that, we were able to get the w. Its not something I am super proud of, but we were able to overcome a ton adversity to edge out this win. Singler and Scheyer stepped up. But, this was another game where Singler has clearly shown that he is the best player on the team. G has been rather disappointing these first few games, and needs to step up if we are to go far in March.

Although our transitional d was slightly poor, we did alright in the half court set. We forced them to take long shots, but they were on fire. Also, we allowed way too many second (and third) chance shots. We need to do something about rebounding. That might be our biggest concern, and URI really exploited it.

dukemsu
11-16-2008, 07:23 PM
Anyone else find it really weird to see Greg in such a reduced role?

Does anyone know (or has it been covered elsewhere on the board) what the turning point was for Greg's playing time in the preseason?

Just really, really strange to see him out there so little.

Rebounding and perimeter D troubling, but it's early. Good resolve and overall toughness. Scheyer continues to show he is a true heart-and-soul, run through the wall guy-as true a one as the program has had in awhile. Reminds me a lot of Brian Davis and Wojo in his fight.

dukemsu

mgtr
11-16-2008, 07:23 PM
This should be real wakeup call for the team. I didn't want to speak negatively, but I have thought we were soft so far this year, and URI showed us up. Thanks to Singler and Scheyer, we won. I have been negative on LT for the past two years, but he does provide a real contribution. I hereby retract earlier negative comments.
Although Smith did not have a great game, I think this game showed why he starts over GP, and I am a big fan of Paulus.
The most confusing player on the team is Henderson. Of course, he had foul problems tonight, but he seems to take a lot of plays off. Given his ability, he ought to be challenging Scheyer and Singler for kudos in every game. Those two guys just worked their tails off tonight.
I expect that in the next game, our players will all be working at the Singler/Scheyer level.

huied
11-16-2008, 07:24 PM
The team lost their leader and go to guy from last year. Demarcus had a ton of experience for last years squad. I think tonight we saw Singler and Scheyer both step up.

Singler is going to have a very very good year.

Hadn't thought of that, but good point. I guess we need a new glue guy on our team. Time to buy that amazing putty from those infomercials...

mapei
11-16-2008, 07:26 PM
Here's another drinking game: take a swig every time someone on DBR uses the phrase "come March," even though it's, like, still November. One game at a time - or at least one month at a time, OK?

URI was fantastic and probably deserved to win. Baron was incredible - I'm not even sure I ever saw 8-for-9 from JJ. I guess it was 8-for-10 counting the last one from halfcourt. But he wasn't the only one. They were regularly blowing by Duke defenders and grabbing rebounds. Like others, I'd say that Jon and Kyle were fantastic, and LT had his moments, but everyone else was pretty mediocre IMO.

The full-court press was particularly ineffective. Once they beat it, Duke was out of position to defend and URI was playing 3 or 4 against 2.

That would have been really exciting to watch if I hadn't had a rooting interest!

taiw93
11-16-2008, 07:26 PM
For those of you who were wondering who would get the minutes at PG during close games, especially at the end, check out the boxscore (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=283210150) for this game: Smith got 31 minutes to Paulus' 10, and played almost all of the important minutes towards the end of the game. Our entire late-game lineup seems to be:
PG: Nolan Smith
SG: Jon Scheyer
SF: Gerald Henderson
PF: Kyle Singler
C: Lance Thomas
Defensive Replacement: Dave McClure

Dawun
11-16-2008, 07:30 PM
Hadn't thought of that, but good point. I guess we need a new glue guy on our team. Time to buy that amazing putty from those infomercials...

glue guys:Singler and Scheyer.

Henderson has problems putting the ball on the ground, and he might already be thinking about late June. I can't substantiate this, but he doesn't seem (mentally) as involved in games. Singler stepped up big time (on O and D), and he is showing why he is the best player on our squad. I respect Henderson's athleticism, but that's not going to get us far in March. We need more from G.

RelativeWays
11-16-2008, 07:35 PM
I'll say two things:

1. Duke has not figured out how to run a good offense when they can't hit the 3 ball, its been our achilles heel since JJ's senior year. The first 3 games, our offense has been terrible but we've thrived off of turnovers and takeaways. We seem unsure about penetrating inside, sometime we're good, sometimes we're out of control. My guess would be trying to establish a good stop and pop mid range game. Its hard to defend, it opens up the the paint and we have guys who can hit 15 footers, Jon, Greg, Kyle, even Marty. Miles apparently was better facing the basket taking jumpers rather than playing a true post.

2. Good teams make bad teams play their way, thats how they win, plain and simple. I didn't see anything we did to try to take URI out of their element. the bad news is that it makes facing someone like WFU a possible nightmare unless we figure things out.

Its a gutty win by this team and a wake up call. Lets see what they can learn from it.

dukestheheat
11-16-2008, 07:38 PM
Dang, that was too close!

We have got to realize that no way this team Rhode Island shoots that well regularly. They were totally unconscious out there tonight, and that doesn't only pertain to their star player, Baron. All teams in the country WILL have great difficulty beating any team that shoots like that, so we shouldn't read too much into our only winning this game (versus a team picked to finish 9th in the Atlantic 10 this year) by a field goal.

The free throws and several gritty offensive plays saved Duke tonight.

Here's what I'm noticing over the last couple years with the team: we really struggle with teams that come out with a equal level of intensity to ours. It's not that we cower to that, but it seems to knock us back a bit. Eventually, we can recover as we did tonight; has anyone else noticed this over the last several years?

dth.

dukemsu
11-16-2008, 07:40 PM
I'll say two things:

1. Duke has not figured out how to run a good offense when they can't hit the 3 ball, its been our achilles heel since JJ's senior year.

Excellent point, though I would counter that Duke has been overly reliant on the triple since Trajan's days.

Hopefully K can develop some good mid-range skills-those shots will be there.

dukemsu

DownEastDevil
11-16-2008, 07:43 PM
For those of you who were wondering who would get the minutes at PG during close games, especially at the end, check out the boxscore (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=283210150) for this game: Smith got 31 minutes to Paulus' 10, and played almost all of the important minutes towards the end of the game. Our entire late-game lineup seems to be:
PG: Nolan Smith
SG: Jon Scheyer
SF: Gerald Henderson
PF: Kyle Singler
C: Lance Thomas
Defensive Replacement: Dave McClure

Paulus got beat pretty bad a couple of times on defense when he was in there. I don't think K wanted to take that chance in a close game when they needed stops on every posession. I would love to see him on the offensive end when they need points. I thought Nolan passed up several open shots when they backed off of him.

Tappan Zee Devil
11-16-2008, 07:43 PM
Older guy=Bucky Waters, Duke Basketball Coach from '69-'73. He sits on press row for a lot of games when he's in town. Really great guy to talk to.

I was a student during the final Vic Bubas years and the first Bucky Waters years. Bucky was a great guy to talk to then as well and much more approachable than Bubas (he came and gave a talk at my house at the beginning of every season) :) - he just couldn't coach :(.

Jim
T '70

TwoDukeTattoos
11-16-2008, 07:48 PM
Without a true center, 08-09 will be a repeat of 07-08. Only this time around it will be worse because everyone already knows how to beat us. Case in point, RI.

Rudy
11-16-2008, 07:49 PM
I have no idea where you get that from... he forced a few turnovers and only got beat off the dribble once. Still, it is obvious that Nolan is a great asset on defense at the end.
I am a big fan of Paulus, but he was beat off the dribble 4 or 5 times. He does generate turnovers from his hustle defense and quick hands so he's not a net liability, but the other guys in the game need to remember who's in at point on defense so they can help with a quick pg's dribble drive.

Just as Henderson was starting to make some impression on offense he picked up his 3rd foul at the 17:06 mark in the second half. Conventional wisdom would say he should come out at that point but K kept him in. Sure enough 17 seconds later G picks up foul #4.

Baron's shooting 3's was unbelievable. He was 0 for 6 inside the arc. RI deserves credit for coming out strong and not wilting in the second half.

Saratoga2
11-16-2008, 07:51 PM
I guess I'll respond to myself. Obviously, this was closer than anyone would have liked. Obviously, we had to play our key guys more than we would have liked (I think Scheyer played the entire second half). Obviously, there are some concerns.

But, first, give Rhode Island some credit. They shot out of their minds. I knew Jimmy Baron was a great shooter, but some of those threes he hit ... geez. Scheyer had this look on his face after that just said "What am I supposed to do?" He was as close to Baron as he could get, had a hand in his face, and Baron still got off fadeaway threes with that quick release. Unreal. Those were not the result of defensive breakdowns. Those were just ridiculous shots. And a number of other Rhode Island players shot better than anyone would have expected.

Duke's problems really varied by half. In the first half, the defense wasn't awful. Rhode Island got a few too many buckets in transition, but also hit some tough jumpers. Duke, on the other hand, rushed on offense, didn't move the ball, didn't spread the floor.

Duke's offense was great in the second half, by comparison. Basically, it consisted of running everything through Scheyer and Singler (who are clearly the two best players on the team right now), and they delivered. Thomas played really well in a supporting role.

The D in the second half, by contrast, was lousy. I'm not talking about on Baron, but everything. The pick and roll D was poor. The help D was really poor. The ball pressure didn't do anything to disrupt Rhode Island's flow or force turnovers. The transition D was really lacking.

There's a lot to work on. But, at least Duke showed that it could execute down te stretch of a tight game. Let's learn what we can from this and move on.

Also, I really hope people don't complain about the PT for Elliot and Plumlee. Elliot has looked lost so far this year, and this wasn't the game to break him in. And Plumlee has struggled similarly, didn't match up well with a smaller, quicker Rhode Island team, and didn't play well in his brief appearance.

On to New York!

First of all, it was a good win against a team that was surprisingly better than I expected and shot incredibly well. Our two players of the game candidates were Scheyer and Singler. I couldn't choose one over the other.

A few things that showed well for the team. We got a total of 16 from Zoubek and Thomas. Smith was in due to his defense being superior to Paulus's against a quick team. PT reflected that and Paulus was getting beat on defense.

A few question marks clearly surfaced during the game. Thomas foul shooting, Paulus defense, Henderson's lack of presence during much of the game.

I also wondered about the strategy during the first half, where we didn't take the ball to them. It resulted in only 8 made baskets for the entire first half.

Give URI lots of credit. If they have a hot shooting night, they can be in any game.

Faison1
11-16-2008, 07:54 PM
Without a true center, 08-09 will be a repeat of 07-08. Only this time around it will be worse because everyone already knows how to beat us. Case in point, RI.

Whoa, whoa, whoa....Let's all take it easy......I have read this entire thread because I couldn't watch the game, but I have to say, it's just one game. These days, anything can happen in basketball.

Remember in '01 when we lost to Maryland on senior night, and Boozer broke his foot? That seemed like a pretty low point, and also pretty hopeless. What happens? K makes some adjustments, and we win the whole thing. So, take it as the third game of the season. If problems with energy persist in February, then I will be concerned.

Saratoga2
11-16-2008, 08:01 PM
Anyone else find it really weird to see Greg in such a reduced role?

Does anyone know (or has it been covered elsewhere on the board) what the turning point was for Greg's playing time in the preseason?

Just really, really strange to see him out there so little.

Rebounding and perimeter D troubling, but it's early. Good resolve and overall toughness. Scheyer continues to show he is a true heart-and-soul, run through the wall guy-as true a one as the program has had in awhile. Reminds me a lot of Brian Davis and Wojo in his fight.

dukemsu


Bucky Waters did mention that Smith shut down Paulus in scrimmages both during the summer and later in the fall. That appears to be what ultimately won Smith the job, head to head competition. Of course I have no way of knowing where Bucky got that information.

kramerbr
11-16-2008, 08:04 PM
Without a true center, 08-09 will be a repeat of 07-08. Only this time around it will be worse because everyone already knows how to beat us. Case in point, RI.

I fail to see how RI proved we don't have a true center. Did they even have a true center? They had Zoubs "brother" who came off the bench and fouled out. Other than that, they just shot the lights out and we started off slow.

CameronBornAndBred
11-16-2008, 08:04 PM
A little more than my heart was prepared to take tonight, but can't complain about a great game in November. And it was a great game. This scenario is exactly the same as what has sent us packing early in March, playing against a team that on paper we should defeat easily, but for what ever reason (in this case insane shooting) we find ourselves lucky to win. I wish I had watched it, but via radio I was not under the impression we were doing much wrong. I'm sure we have plenty to work on, but I think we have an excellent win under our belt that will pay off in the future. Also I was impressed by K's coaching down the stretch, it's moments like those that he shines and he did so again this evening. To have the team exposed to that type of intensity and atmosphere this early is going to help them handle similar scenarios in the future.

Saratoga2
11-16-2008, 08:07 PM
This should be real wakeup call for the team. I didn't want to speak negatively, but I have thought we were soft so far this year, and URI showed us up. Thanks to Singler and Scheyer, we won. I have been negative on LT for the past two years, but he does provide a real contribution. I hereby retract earlier negative comments.
Although Smith did not have a great game, I think this game showed why he starts over GP, and I am a big fan of Paulus.
The most confusing player on the team is Henderson. Of course, he had foul problems tonight, but he seems to take a lot of plays off. Given his ability, he ought to be challenging Scheyer and Singler for kudos in every game. Those two guys just worked their tails off tonight.
I expect that in the next game, our players will all be working at the Singler/Scheyer level.

Henderson looks to be about 6'3 and is a great athlete and is very strong and physical and has reasonably good basketball skills and ball handling. He just may have difficulties against some quick and agile guys of his size. I say give him a break, and he will produce in a big way throughout the year.

jipops
11-16-2008, 08:08 PM
I, like everyone else here, was expecting Duke to handle RI with relative ease. I was alarmed at much of what we witnessed tonight but exhilarated by the win as well.

But let's take a look at the calender, note the date, and pause for a little perspective.

Also, take note of the fact that we faced an extremely quick squad that spread out the floor baseline to baseline. This is not an easy offense to defend this early in the season. And let's face it, we didn't respond well at all. Also, a guy like Baron can obviously at times be un-guard able. Even a someone like DeMarcus probably couldn't have stopped that b/c the problem wasn't staying in front of him, the issue was keeping him from shooting over the top, which was why we had to put a 6-8 Singler on him.

I hated how we were so slow to rotate over tonight. That is something that can be improved on throughout the season and will come with time.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-16-2008, 08:08 PM
Without a true center, 08-09 will be a repeat of 07-08. Only this time around it will be worse because everyone already knows how to beat us. Case in point, RI.

I'd take a real PG over a real center any day. Our post guys are a work in progress, but I'm hopeful that Plumlee can find his way, that Z can find a role, and that Lance can continue the great things he's doing.

Our problem, other than no one informing G that the season has started, is that we have no one to create or run the offense. Nolan is, um, a work in progress and Greg looks completely out of sync. Whether it's losing his starting spot, bad matchups, or something else we don't know about, we've sacrificed half a PG for none at all. I have some confidence that Nolan will step into his role as a distributor/floor leader in time, but for now we've played 3 terrible offensive games, as befits a team starting an inexperienced Soph SG at the point.

I don't know if Nolan will transform into a player he has never been, if Jon will take the reins, if we'll land Wall/Knight/etc., or what, but we're a bunch of good players right now with nothing like a floor leader. The individual efforts have been outstanding (with one major exception) and the D has been good (even great at times), but on O we're just not a team yet and it's not much fun to watch. Here's hoping we find a solution sooner, rather than later. At the 2-4 positions we're as good as anyone in the nation.

Next play.

JDev
11-16-2008, 08:08 PM
Man did RI shoot the ball well. Waters mentioned during the game that the RI coach, Baron's father, requested a Redick tape from K, and he sure as hell must have watched it. He hit some really difficult shots and played tremendous. I think RI finished something like 72% from the 3-point line. I was very happy to see Duke be able to come from behind and gut out a very hard-fought win. Despite the number of things that Duke would like to do better (shot selection and help D weren't stellar today), it can only be a good thing that they won this game. It was a dog fight. Sometimes you just have to find ways to win.

quickgtp
11-16-2008, 08:09 PM
I am actually impressed with this win. RI (especially Baron) was essentially unstoppable. I cannot remeber seeing someone go 8-10 from 3 (basically 8-9) and half of those 3's were with someone in his grill. Hats off to RI on a scrappy performance. What makes this win sweet for me is that this is the 3rd game of the year and we played so-so, but we still hung in there and won.

Some other notes from the game:

-Thomas is becoming a good player before our eyes
-Singler needs to stop running his mouth at certain times in the game
-Williams only played a little, but his D was SOLID. He is an offense minded guard, but he showed a lot of hustle on the defensive end
-Smith is gradually improving at the PG spot
-Looks like Plumlee is not our answer in the post, and is no longer a starter
-Zoubek looks as if he is getting more and more comfortable

We still have a ton of games to play!

Saratoga2
11-16-2008, 08:12 PM
I'll say two things:

1. Duke has not figured out how to run a good offense when they can't hit the 3 ball, its been our achilles heel since JJ's senior year. The first 3 games, our offense has been terrible but we've thrived off of turnovers and takeaways. We seem unsure about penetrating inside, sometime we're good, sometimes we're out of control. My guess would be trying to establish a good stop and pop mid range game. Its hard to defend, it opens up the the paint and we have guys who can hit 15 footers, Jon, Greg, Kyle, even Marty. Miles apparently was better facing the basket taking jumpers rather than playing a true post.

2. Good teams make bad teams play their way, thats how they win, plain and simple. I didn't see anything we did to try to take URI out of their element. the bad news is that it makes facing someone like WFU a possible nightmare unless we figure things out.

Its a gutty win by this team and a wake up call. Lets see what they can learn from it.

We are not the strongest 3 point shooting team this year and need to face that fact and find other ways to score. We hit 3 in the first half and 2 in the second. I haven't seen the stat line yet so don't know the shooting percentage. We will face teams who will shoot the 3 much better tnan we do so have to make it up in turnover margin, shooting percentage inside and FT shooting. We did it tonight and can do it again.

Jumbo
11-16-2008, 08:13 PM
Without a true center, 08-09 will be a repeat of 07-08. Only this time around it will be worse because everyone already knows how to beat us. Case in point, RI.

This is an absurd, oversimplified, wrongheaded notion. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the areas where Duke struggled today.

arnie
11-16-2008, 08:13 PM
Without a true center, 08-09 will be a repeat of 07-08. Only this time around it will be worse because everyone already knows how to beat us. Case in point, RI.

I'm still hoping Plumlee develops and gets real minutes as the season progresses - I agree we will need more strength in the middle later in the year.

dukemsu
11-16-2008, 08:15 PM
-Singler needs to stop running his mouth at certain times in the game


Good point. Kyle has some Laettneresque nastiness. He needs to dial it down a bit or he's going to get the ol' Daniel Ewing treatment, T after T.

dukemsu

miramar
11-16-2008, 08:24 PM
Bucky Waters did mention that Smith shut down Paulus in scrimmages both during the summer and later in the fall. That appears to be what ultimately won Smith the job, head to head competition. Of course I have no way of knowing where Bucky got that information.

Like many others I could not watch the game, but who can doubt Bucky. I have to admit that I never thought I would see Smith play 31 minutes and Paulus only 11 (with one assist and three points). Paulus is a tough kid, and I expect that he will adjust to his new role and become a valuable sixth man. Nevertheless, it must be a tough situation for a three-year starter who was the #1 ranked point guard coming out of high school.

Smith and Paulus went a combined 4-13 from the field with only 3 assists, but I am sure that will improve.

Finally, it seems that Scheyer plays his best games when the chips are down, but it seems that few people outside of Duke realize how good he is.

Bay Area Duke Fan
11-16-2008, 08:24 PM
Kyle has some Laettneresque nastiness.

dukemsu


That's certainly something I'd like to see more of!

dukestheheat
11-16-2008, 08:25 PM
dukemsu-

I saw Singler jawing, but he doesn't strike me as a player who'd proactively woof at an opponent. We have no idea what transpired between him and whoever he was playing against on that rotation, but I have a feeling some of the RI players were woofing, too. I've been in that same situation and while you try not to talk back, when the other guy is taunting YOU, it's hard not to mention it back to him when you get one in on him. Doesn't make it right for Singler, but I'm just sayin'.

dth.

jimsumner
11-16-2008, 08:27 PM
Rhode Island played really, really well. They deserved to win. But so did Duke.

Speaking of centers, Zoubek and Thomas outscored Seawright, Martell, and Francis 16-6.

Duke didn't play badly and they sure didn't play badly because of their center play. I realize some people are genetically encoded to blame every problem on the 5s but it's getting old.

Barron shot as well as anybody I've ever seen at Duke. Yes, anybody. It's tough to defend a 25-footer much better than Duke did tonight. Sometimes, you've just got to give the other team credit. Barron and James were exceptional tonight, RIU had Duke on the ropes numerous times but everytime Duke had to have a score, they got one. Duke deserves some credit too.

A word on Paulus. He hurt his right arm in practice Friday, had significant swelling, and couldn't even make a fist until this morning. Kid's a gamer.

Jumbo
11-16-2008, 08:28 PM
I'll say two things:

1. Duke has not figured out how to run a good offense when they can't hit the 3 ball, its been our achilles heel since JJ's senior year. The first 3 games, our offense has been terrible but we've thrived off of turnovers and takeaways.


I don't see how anyone can say this. In the first half, Duke's offense was lousy. No doubt. But we scored 49 points in the second half. We didn't rely heavily on the three. We missed a couple of open ones, but that'll happen (and Kyle's late 3 was HUGE). But Duke got back into this game by relentlessly attacking the basket. In the second half, we shot 15-for-19 from two-point range, and hit 13 of 16 free throws. That's exceptional offense in a half where we shot 2-for-10 from downtown.

dahntaysdawg
11-16-2008, 08:31 PM
That's certainly something I'd like to see more of!

Thank you so much!!!

I've read in the offseason that Coach wanted the team to find its swagger, and like it our not Kyle certainly has it. You can run 5 choir boys out there if you want to and call it the Duke way, but Duke has had these kinds of players before and it can do one of two things, and this is a Coach K quote: "The fire can heat the building, or it can burn it down". Laettner's fire heated the building 24/7. McRoberts' fire could burn it right to the ground. I don't think a mean streak is a bad thing, but the player better back it up, Kyle has done that so far.

77devil
11-16-2008, 08:33 PM
A word on Paulus. He hurt his right arm in practice Friday, had significant swelling, and couldn't even make a fist until this morning. Kid's a gamer.

Thanks for the note on Paulus. 11 minutes on the floor did not make sense otherwise, particularly in the first half when the offense was struggling.

CameronBornAndBred
11-16-2008, 08:33 PM
In the second half, we shot 15-for-19 from two-point range, and hit 13 of 16 free throws.
Those free throws were huge. I was nervous with every one, knowing our recent history. It was a refreshing change at the line and huge contributor in our win.

RelativeWays
11-16-2008, 08:41 PM
I don't see how anyone can say this. In the first half, Duke's offense was lousy. No doubt. But we scored 49 points in the second half. We didn't rely heavily on the three. We missed a couple of open ones, but that'll happen (and Kyle's late 3 was HUGE). But Duke got back into this game by relentlessly attacking the basket. In the second half, we shot 15-for-19 from two-point range, and hit 13 of 16 free throws. That's exceptional offense in a half where we shot 2-for-10 from downtown.

We still took bad outside shots during the second half and more often than not those were the first options chosen. Towards the end Duke finally abandoned the 3 pointer and had Jon and Kyle create and get fouled, thats where we found success. The other problem was that because we stuggled on the perimeter, URI played a 2-3 zone thats a bit harder to penetrate and makes rebounding the long ball easier for the defense. If I was a coach and my team played Duke next, I'm playing a 2-3 zone until a) the 3 pointers start falling or b) they find another way to beat me. I'd challenge the drive every time and try for the rebound on the missed shot. We need to find another consistent threat is my main point. This will make us a better team though, later in the season.

shadowfax336
11-16-2008, 08:42 PM
For those like me who were wondering why Greg only played 10 minutes today/didn't look like himself...

This is from Coach K's postgame interview

On players who picked up their level of play:

“We’re lucky to have Dave [McClure] and Lance [Thomas]. They just played so hard. Greg was in a tough position today because two days ago he really hurt his arm. He took a charge, and his arm swelled so much he couldn’t move his hand. This was Friday, and he kept ice on it all night and some of the swelling came down and yesterday he was able to somewhat close his hand and then he spent all night and today icing to where in our shoot-around he shot it a little bit. That kid played with a lot of guts today.”

dukemsu
11-16-2008, 08:43 PM
dukemsu-

I saw Singler jawing, but he doesn't strike me as a player who'd proactively woof at an opponent. We have no idea what transpired between him and whoever he was playing against on that rotation, but I have a feeling some of the RI players were woofing, too. I've been in that same situation and while you try not to talk back, when the other guy is taunting YOU, it's hard not to mention it back to him when you get one in on him. Doesn't make it right for Singler, but I'm just sayin'.

dth.

I am actually not knocking Kyle. This flashed a few times last year too. He just seems to genuinely enjoy getting under opponents' skin and irritate, with a smile. I think it's actually a good thing unless he develops a reputation among the refs.

He's not at Laettner's level for getting after opponents (or refs, or teammates...). Just reminds me of 32 sometimes. His drive to the bucket on a bigger player reminded me a bit of CL as well.

dukemsu

sagegrouse
11-16-2008, 08:44 PM
we gotta give our guys some props for their guts, down 6 with 3 minutes to play and they scratched out a win...

We scored the last 11 points of the first half. Then, we went from a six point deficit to a three point win in the last three minutes of the second half.

I thought URI wore down a bit (Duke has a lot of talent) at the end of both halves. Without these rallies, however, we lose by 18 points -- at home.

I thought we were looking ahead to the NYC trip tomorrow and played the first half like we didn't want to be there. I thought we played with much greater intensity in the 2nd half -- but the Rams were incredibly hot.

sagegrouse

RelativeWays
11-16-2008, 08:46 PM
I am actually not knocking Kyle. This flashed a few times last year too. He just seems to genuinely enjoy getting under opponents' skin and irritate, with a smile. I think it's actually a good thing unless he develops a reputation among the refs.

He's not at Laettner's level for getting after opponents (or refs, or teammates...). Just reminds me of 32 sometimes. His drive to the bucket on a bigger player reminded me a bit of CL as well.

dukemsu


If Singler is a cocky SOB that the other team cannot stand then God bless him. I'll be honest, Duke needs a guy with some 'tude. I think Jon has a bit too. Those two just did not want to lose. I love them for it.

JDev
11-16-2008, 08:48 PM
A word on Paulus. He hurt his right arm in practice Friday, had significant swelling, and couldn't even make a fist until this morning. Kid's a gamer.

That's interesting info, I did not know that. That kid and his grit never cease to amaze me.

Kedsy
11-16-2008, 08:49 PM
Henderson has problems putting the ball on the ground, and he might already be thinking about late June.

I hope this isn't it, because if G keeps playing like he has so far, the only thinking he'll be doing in June is which channel he can watch the draft on TV. He has so much talent and potential, but if you don't bring it every game in college, you won't be a first round pick.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-16-2008, 08:50 PM
For those like me who were wondering why Greg only played 10 minutes today/didn't look like himself...

This is from Coach K's postgame interview

On players who picked up their level of play:

“We’re lucky to have Dave [McClure] and Lance [Thomas]. They just played so hard. Greg was in a tough position today because two days ago he really hurt his arm. He took a charge, and his arm swelled so much he couldn’t move his hand. This was Friday, and he kept ice on it all night and some of the swelling came down and yesterday he was able to somewhat close his hand and then he spent all night and today icing to where in our shoot-around he shot it a little bit. That kid played with a lot of guts today.”

Thanks for that information. The post game interview with K started so quickly that I missed the beginning of it, and we got to our car about as fast as we ever have post game. Usually K starts talking with Bob Harris long after we're in the car.

I was somewhat surprised we didn't see Greg in the last 7 minutes, except for the brief appearance with 4.6 seconds to go when we had to get Lance out so he wouldn't shoot the obvious foul shots that were coming. Now we know why.

Constantstrain 81
11-16-2008, 08:50 PM
I thought our defense was good. I know that is strange to say with the shooting percentages, but they had two players who just shot exceptionally well. 8-9 from 3? 9-11 from mid-range? These were not unguarded shots. They had just 34 in the first half and 45 in the second (but they shot like 75% to get it). RI did not turn the ball over much and played disciplined ball.

Our problem, again, was shot selection. Particularly in the first half, the team doesn't seem to move well or share well. We settle for the wrong shot or ... in three cases ... wait too long for a bad shot (or no shot). I want to get on Henderson's case, but ... it seems like he cannot be a superstar if someone else has already fired up a shot without him even touching the ball. Where is the motion? Where are the picks? What about posting Henderson? It is like he has to rebound the ball just to get a shot. I was really ready to blame him for not stepping up, but I think that our overall offense has something to blame for that.

Smith dribbles. He passes to Scheyer. He dribbles. He passes back to Smith. At no time are we really looking at the basket. Finally, someone takes a shot (why are we shooting so many three-pointers?)

The defense is good. The effort is good. Free-throw shooting with Nolan, Greg, Jon, and Kyle is great. The composure down the stretch is great. Our identity and overall scheme on offense, particularly early in games -- is not there. That can change.

Whew!

sagegrouse
11-16-2008, 08:54 PM
Over and above the scary closeness of this game, I would like to report that three old trends reappeared:

1. We had many fewer turnovers (8 to 17, IIRC).

2. We made many more FTs than the other guys attempted.

3. And we were outrebounded.

sagegrouse

Kedsy
11-16-2008, 09:05 PM
For those who thought there was no way K would be playing his top guys 30+ minutes this season, today's box score does not bode well. Yes, I know G was in foul trouble and Paulus was possibly hurt, but I now believe Singler and Scheyer will be playing 30+ minutes almost every game. Hopefully, they won't tire out under those conditions.

Also, it's only the third game of the year and it already looks like the bench may have been shortened to 8 players. For those (like myself) who were hoping for a 10 (or at least 9) man rotation this year, it's not a great sign.

should_be_working
11-16-2008, 09:10 PM
I think we got a bit out-coached tonight. They did a great job exploiting our aggresiveness on defense, by spreading the offence and taking guys out of the paint and making us subseptable to driving to the basket. I thought maybe if we played a little less agressive on defense - ie not closely guarding guys beyond the 3 pt line (except for Baron) we could have prevented some of their drives off the dribble and dishes for easy baskets. I noticed Z got taken out of the paint quite a bit leaving the paint wide open for penatration by the guards. They got a lot of second chance opportunies by our lack of boxing out, and they shot extremely well.

I think tonight was more of them playing extremely well than us playing poorly. We have to move the ball better on offense and do a better job getting back on defense. Oh, yeah it would be nice if we could shoot a little better from the field too. Its going to be a bad night when officials aren't blowing the whistle - we are relying way too much on the drive and get fouled play.

Overall though it was a fun game to watch and something tells me that if it was last year, this one wouldn't have been one that we would have won. Good game, lots of things to work on, but a win is a win and our guys showed some heart tonight.

Acymetric
11-16-2008, 09:15 PM
I like what I saw tonight. If #20 shot like a normal human being the game wouldn't have been nearly as challenging. Even with his shooting, our guys fought back, and thanks to clutch play by Jon and Kyle we pulled it out.

At first I was worried about Henderson, and may have mentioned something about it in an earlier post, but upon rethinking, I don't see this problem continuing. The team as a whole isn't working well offensively. I think his game will start to pick up soon, and at some point we'll start playing better on offense as a group. These are the things that get worked out in the preseason.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll say it here too since there's more traffic in this thread. Can we please bring back "Hey Baby" to the pep band's song list? It isn't the energizer that some of the other songs are, but to me its every bit the classic that Cheeseburger in Paradise is for us. Last game part of the student section even started to sing it on their own, only to be drowned out by the pep band playing a different song. If you know someone in the band (pretty sure there are some DUMB people here) please tell the director to include this song in the future!

DoubleDuke Dad
11-16-2008, 09:22 PM
Nobody has mentioned the real reason we won. Zoubek was 4-4 from the foul line (and he looked good shooting those fouls)! Now if only Thomas could learn how to shoot fouls we will be unstoppable. :)

Ima Facultiwyfe
11-16-2008, 09:27 PM
....of a Cameron Crowd! How 'bout EVERYBODY, even to the very top row, standing and screaming for the last 3 minutes or so! SUPER!!!! I don't think I've ever seen that before!
Bless everybody's hearts!!!!
Love, Ima

dukelifer
11-16-2008, 09:35 PM
Well I did not expect to get the defibrillator out this early in the season but it is good to know it can be powered up. If I hadn't expected this to be an easy win I could have objectively said that this was a great game for Duke. What a way to see who can step up in big games and big moments. RI was playing great in the second half. And even if they are not great- they simulated a great team tonight. They almost played a perfect mid range game - and when JJ's twin started to light it up- it looked like Duke was done. That kid had an amazingly quick release. But Singler and Scheyer would not let Duke lose. That is what great players do- they make great plays when the pressure is on. The two up and under plays by both those guys were beautiful basketball plays. Also, the free throw shooting was clutch! Duke won this game with grit- not with the usual 3 ball barrage. I am a bit worried about this team's outside shooting - but we will see as time goes on as they should have the shooters. I thought both Smith and particularly Thomas had great moments in this game. Thomas has really shown growth this year. He is giving energy and now is not rushing his shot. Smith's handle is still not what it needs to be- but his explosiveness gives Duke a different dimension. I saw a little life from G tonight- but perhaps he will come around as the season goes on. All in all - a great win for Duke in their growth as a team. This game will pay dividends down the road. Count on it.

DU82
11-16-2008, 09:38 PM
....of a Cameron Crowd! How 'bout EVERYBODY, even to the very top row, standing and screaming for the last 3 minutes or so! SUPER!!!! I don't think I've ever seen that before!
Bless everybody's hearts!!!!
Love, Ima

Those of us sitting in the top row stand more than the rest, since we're not blocking anybody's view if we do!

There was definitely more noise than any other November game I can remember.

moonpie23
11-16-2008, 09:40 PM
was it just me? or did bucky keep saying "cingular" for Singler...?

Duvall
11-16-2008, 09:45 PM
For those who thought there was no way K would be playing his top guys 30+ minutes this season, today's box score does not bode well. Yes, I know G was in foul trouble and Paulus was possibly hurt, but I now believe Singler and Scheyer will be playing 30+ minutes almost every game. Hopefully, they won't tire out under those conditions.


They played 33 and 35 minutes in a one possession game. Hopefully, not every game will see Duke trailing most of the way in hopes of coming back to win by three.

Kdogg
11-16-2008, 09:47 PM
Older guy=Bucky Waters, Duke Basketball Coach from '69-'73. He sits on press row for a lot of games when he's in town. Really great guy to talk to.

I could swear Bucky kept saying "we" when he talked about Duke. I have seen UNC guys do this alot but Dukies rarely slip.

TwoDukeTattoos
11-16-2008, 09:48 PM
I fail to see how RI proved we don't have a true center. Did they even have a true center? They had Zoubs "brother" who came off the bench and fouled out. Other than that, they just shot the lights out and we started off slow.

We were outrebounded 27-23. OK, not a huge disparity. But when you couple that with the fact that we had no consistent scoring threat down low, it becomes a concern. When your shooters are in a slump, a team needs to have a center down low to bail them out. We don't have that. And if Plumlee doesn't develop, this will be last season all over again. I am simply calling it like it is.

TwoDukeTattoos
11-16-2008, 09:53 PM
This is an absurd, oversimplified, wrongheaded notion. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the areas where Duke struggled today.

I knew Jumbo would lash out at my "oversimplified" analysis. Sometimes, Jumbo isn't as smart as he thinks he is. Dude, I didn't attempt to break down every stat column. I simply stated the obvious. The paint was empty and five guys were trying to hit jumpers. I didn't see any lobs down low. Did you, jumbo? Check it: all teams that are successful in March have legit low-post presences. Right now, Duke doesn't have that. If you think they do, you're delusional. And if you don't think they need it, you're delusional.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-16-2008, 09:56 PM
At first I was worried about Henderson, and may have mentioned something about it in an earlier post, but upon rethinking, I don't see this problem continuing. The team as a whole isn't working well offensively. I think his game will start to pick up soon, and at some point we'll start playing better on offense as a group.

With his athleticism and tools, G is the one guy I thought could thrive (and carry us) even when the rest of the offense wasn't flowing well. If there are some issues we don't know about (maybe it's more "exercise-induced asthma") I hope they are resolved. I'm really mystified why a guy with every physical advantage looks like a second-string role-player against this competition.:confused:

Still, G has certainly delivered for us in the past and the upside is that Kyle and Jon have both had the opportunity to demonstrate their ability to create and dominate in an offensive vacuum. If G can shake whatever has him in a funk maybe this will pay dividends in the long run.

RelativeWays
11-16-2008, 09:59 PM
was it just me? or did bucky keep saying "cingular" for Singler...?

What, you didn't know that the marquee ACC match up will be Kyle Cingular versus Tyler Hansborough?

TwoDukeTattoos
11-16-2008, 10:00 PM
was it just me? or did bucky keep saying "cingular" for Singler...?

Nope, not just you!:D

Indoor66
11-16-2008, 10:09 PM
was it just me? or did bucky keep saying "cingular" for Singler...?

Well, Bucky IS a State grad! :mad:

godukerocks
11-16-2008, 10:10 PM
Good point. Kyle has some Laettneresque nastiness. He needs to dial it down a bit or he's going to get the ol' Daniel Ewing treatment, T after T.

dukemsu


Baron hit a three, then on the next Duke possession Singler hit one, and when heading to their respective benches right after, Singler started jawing. I loved that.

Indoor66
11-16-2008, 10:12 PM
Baron hit a three, then on the next Duke possession Singler hit one, and when heading to their respective benches right after, Singler started jawing. I loved that.

The ref also had some words for Singler as he returned to the court....

Acymetric
11-16-2008, 10:13 PM
The ref also had some words for Singler as he returned to the court....

Speaking of refs, was it just me (and the people around me at the game) or were the refs particularly bad tonight. I hate being "that guy" but I thought there were a lot of blown calls.

Edit: As far as Singler goes, does anyone remember that youtube video of him giving an opposing player a purple nurple? I'd usually call it a different name, but I'm not sure if that word is kosher on the boards...

captmojo
11-16-2008, 10:15 PM
Rhode Island played really, really well. They deserved to win. But so did Duke.

Speaking of centers, Zoubek and Thomas outscored Seawright, Martell, and Francis 16-6.

Duke didn't play badly and they sure didn't play badly because of their center play. I realize some people are genetically encoded to blame every problem on the 5s but it's getting old.

Barron shot as well as anybody I've ever seen at Duke. Yes, anybody. It's tough to defend a 25-footer much better than Duke did tonight. Sometimes, you've just got to give the other team credit. Barron and James were exceptional tonight, RIU had Duke on the ropes numerous times but everytime Duke had to have a score, they got one. Duke deserves some credit too.

A word on Paulus. He hurt his right arm in practice Friday, had significant swelling, and couldn't even make a fist until this morning. Kid's a gamer.


An excellent analysis as usual. :)

I would add that this was a serious gut-check for the Devils and they were very lucky to come away with the W. All of Barron's shots were with a hand in his sight line. Uncanny. URI did not win because they were intimidated by what they were about to accomplish. (they choked) Barron did not miss a shot, as bad as that last one, at any other time during the game. I think he probably made a few behind the back-over his head-off handed ones during shoot-around. His last shot was heaved from half-court with 2.2 left till the buzzer. He had time to get a lot closer in range for a better 3 attempt. He'll probably kick himself over that when he views game film.

Duke did not lose because they were determined not to. Good experienced coaching leadership down the stretch was also key.

Good thing this wasn't a familiar foe like one of those fellow conference members who would have proven a lot more confident.

Next victim please.

captmojo
11-16-2008, 10:18 PM
Speaking of refs, was it just me (and the people around me at the game) or were the refs particularly bad tonight. I hate being "that guy" but I thought there were a lot of blown calls.



What stands out to me were at least two times, when Duke was on defense, that they forgot what number comes after four.

Kedsy
11-16-2008, 10:23 PM
They played 33 and 35 minutes in a one possession game. Hopefully, not every game will see Duke trailing most of the way in hopes of coming back to win by three.

Yeah, but if you can't spread the minutes around in a November home game against an Atlantic 10 team, when do you think we'll start playing more guys? A deep rotation means guys playing meaningful minutes in meaningful games, not garbage time in a blowout.

bigj4194
11-16-2008, 10:25 PM
Baron hit a three, then on the next Duke possession Singler hit one, and when heading to their respective benches right after, Singler started jawing. I loved that.

not sure if this is the same time but i believe it is, but after kyle hit his shot someone bumped him and said something while walking to the bench so in kind he responded. this was also the timeout when Coach Collins said to kyle as he was entering the huddle, "Shoot the (insert swear word) ball"

as i have not added my $0.02 yet, here are my thoughts. Baron on URI was out of this world, at one point any time he hit a shot Abby Waner who was sitting in front of the graduate students was just shaking her head and couldn't believe it. LT is looking better each game and I think he will have a break out year this year. While maybe not being phenomenal, he will be a good player for us. I was impressed by Zoubek's performance. Miles will get more comfortable with the more PT he gets, and he didn't get a lot today. The only think LT needs to work on are his FT. E-Mail looked great on defense and is going to be a shut-down defender eventually. Paulus didn't play much, not sure if that was because of the quickness of the URI guards or because of his injured arm, but the little bit he was out there he looked fine, but not great. He looked better in the previous games. G, due to foul trouble, didn't have the opportunity to do a whole lot. He had a great dunk, but other than that was quite quiet. McClure as always played good defense but when it came to offense didn't do anything, he needs to get more aggressive. Didn't see much of Marty, so no major comments there. Nolan proved to be a great defender and his offense is coming. He seemed at times to be forcing his shots and his drives. I was pleased with his performance and I think he will be a great PG for us. Kyle and Jon were both quite impressive. They are going to be the leaders of the team this year. All our offense that was quite successful seemed to flow through either of them. I look forward to seeing how they perform in the rest of the season.

Acymetric
11-16-2008, 10:28 PM
What stands out to me were at least two times, when Duke was on defense, that they forgot what number comes after four.

I'd say there were probably 3 or 4 of those. There was one where they could almost have called two five second violations, and didn't call it. I swear, it was close to 7-8 seconds.

They also missed several plays that should have either been blocking fouls or charges on both ends. Its one thing to call it the wrong way, at game speed I can understand making a mistake, but to call NOTHING? I was at the wrong basket to have a good view, but I thought Z drew a nice charge during the 1st half. Can't remember if it became a no call or blocking foul. Unfortunately, I think refs are going to give the other player the benefit of the doubt every time when Z is involved.

They also missed at least a couple out of bounds calls. Plays on the sideline right in front of me where the ball clearly bounced off a RI player right in front of a ref and he blew the call.

On a positive note, the hustle from Singler when he chased that ball across the court and almost saved it before going out of bounds in the corner by the RI bench was great. Didn't make the play, but everyone cheered at how hard he went for it, I thought that was a great moment.

I also liked Nolan Smith's play at the beginning, where the other player (#5?) was bumping and swatting him the whole way down the court. Nolan ended up getting pissed an took the ball from the inbounds to the hoop, and after the play you could tell he wasn't going to take that crap.

bigj4194
11-16-2008, 10:28 PM
What stands out to me were at least two times, when Duke was on defense, that they forgot what number comes after four.

Just two? I can think of at least 4. My thoughts of the refs, they weren't outrageously bad, but they definitely missed major things on both sides of the ball and then they did make bad calls on both teams. I will always be biased towards Duke, but they did make some horrible calls on URI, especially the foul that put Kyle to the line in the last minute. I had a pretty good view of it as I was front row right by the FT Line in the student section. The URI defender got all ball as Kyle went up. That said I will say this...the refs were not the best i have seen.

captmojo
11-16-2008, 10:30 PM
Remember it's early in the season for these guys too. :(

bigj4194
11-16-2008, 10:30 PM
one last thing...the statistic that stands out to me is Fast Break points. URI - 13 Duke - 2. This cannot be a trend, we need to get back on defense.

BlueintheFace
11-16-2008, 10:32 PM
I just feel the need to point this out- remember that time when Kyle Singler's body was practically out of bounds and he still managed to hit a behind the backboard- reverse layup... that was cool.

Acymetric
11-16-2008, 10:34 PM
I have a question about the officiating. Were the refs ACC or A-10, and if they were A-10 does that conference tend to allow more physical play and contact in their games?

Kedsy
11-16-2008, 10:35 PM
We were outrebounded 27-23. OK, not a huge disparity. But when you couple that with the fact that we had no consistent scoring threat down low, it becomes a concern. When your shooters are in a slump, a team needs to have a center down low to bail them out. We don't have that. And if Plumlee doesn't develop, this will be last season all over again. I am simply calling it like it is.

Duke was one of the highest scoring teams in the nation in 2007-08. If you think low post offense was Duke's biggest issue last season, then Jumbo is not the one who's delusional.

jimsumner
11-16-2008, 10:36 PM
"I didn't see any lobs down low. Did you, jumbo?"

Zoubek scored down low after an entry pass by Singler.

Thomas had a dunk on an assist by Singler.

Thomas had another dunk on an assist by Singler.

Thomas had a layup on an assist by Smith.

Eight points in the paint in the second half by the fives on assists.

mo.st.dukie
11-16-2008, 10:44 PM
Duke was one of the highest scoring teams in the nation in 2007-08. If you think low post offense was Duke's biggest issue last season, then Jumbo is not the one who's delusional.

Yes, Duke was a very good scoring team last year, highest scoring Duke team since 02, but it was too one dimensional and the drive and kick eventually was figured out by other teams and they were able to stop us more easily. It's not the volume of 3's that hurt us, the 01 team shot and made a ton of threes, but the fact that we didn't have much else to rely on last year other than driving and hitting threes. One was stopped by the defense and the other stopped falling possibly due to tired legs or the flu or just simply being off. Of course defense and rebounding was much more of a concern last year, and this year, than offense IMO.

bigj4194
11-16-2008, 10:47 PM
I have a question about the officiating. Were the refs ACC or A-10, and if they were A-10 does that conference tend to allow more physical play and contact in their games?

here is Ed Corbett....he seems to ref multiple conferences, however mostly ACC and Big East.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/ed-corbett/conferences

Patt Driscoll: http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/pat-driscoll/conferences
Les Jones: http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/les-jones/conferences

Billy Dat
11-16-2008, 10:48 PM
My only information on the game is the AP write up, quotes from K and players and the messages on this board.

I am sure if I watched it I'd feel differently and be focused on specific deficiencies, but by all accounts it sounds like an unexpected early season classic where a team came in and played a nearly perfect game but we showed guts and fought them off....a great thing. It sounds like we didn't lay an egg.

What's making me smile is that Singler and Scheyer are showing the cajones to pursue that Duke standard - they want to be great.

What makes me furrow my brow is G - WE NEED YOU TO BE GREAT, G...we need you!!!!!!!!!

Diddy
11-16-2008, 10:52 PM
With regards to the Singlar Jawing incident, I saw on the replay what happened. Singlar was guarding Baron, who hit a three over Kyle from JJ-esque range. Baron then had some words for Kyle. On the ensuing possesion, Kyle got the ball and hit a trey of his own. A TO was called. Kyle sort of waited for Baron to cross his path and barked back at Barron, sort of a anything-you-can-co-I-can-do scenario (but with adult language).

Legend-wait for it-DARY.

On a related note, Singlar will not have the same problem that Daniel Ewing had with the refs/jawing. Daniel, god love him, was a good player. He was one of the better players in the Conf his senior year. Kyle is looking like one of the best players in the nation as a soph. He is turning into a superstar capable of running his yap, and then backing it up. The refs tend to let such superstars jaw a little. As long as it is not demonstrative, ie pointing, gestures, chest bumping, etc, the refs will nod benignly and pretend they didn't see jack.

Personally, I am glad that our O is out of synch. In past years, we gelled too soon. Better said, we PEAKED too soon. This team will be a work in progress that will improve until March, when it really counts.

LT is playing great. Good scoring, great D, and solid rebounding. You know, with a few more boards, he could be Dennis Rodman type player, without the nutjob of course.

Since Greg was injured, I won't talk about his D. Yikes.

Also, I didn't think URI was that Athletic. They weren't moribund, in the way that many early season cupcakes are, but they are not an elite team athletically. Certainly, we will face many teams as athletic as this, and moreso this year.

Hopefully, our guys were looking ahead to the NYC this week.

Finally

Today, this board (ie the posters) recieved comeupance from on high. A higher power struck back at us in punishment for our sins. Basically, we finally found out how it felt to be on the other end of a JJ Reddick shooting spree. Jeez, no wonder he was hated by our opponents. My heart stoped every time that Baron kid got the ball. I am not saying that ACC arenas were right in how they expressed their hatred of JJ, but I understand.

Acymetric
11-16-2008, 10:57 PM
Legend-wait for it-DARY.


Nice analysis. I don't know how many people on here will get that quote, but I LOVE that show. I think its hilarious. Its filled the whole in my heart that Scrubs left when it really went downhill the final season. Here's hoping Scrubs picks back up this season whenever it starts. Wow, that was horribly off topic, sorry.

I don't mind the jawing at all, as long as it stays under control. If it starts escalating that is a problem, but a little trash talk never bothered me. I know a lot of Duke fans feel differently, but I think there's a difference between talking trash and being a punk. As long as our players stay on the right side of that line I'm fine.

devildeac
11-16-2008, 11:08 PM
We scored the last 11 points of the first half. Then, we went from a six point deficit to a three point win in the last three minutes of the second half.

I thought URI wore down a bit (Duke has a lot of talent) at the end of both halves. Without these rallies, however, we lose by 18 points -- at home.

I thought we were looking ahead to the NYC trip tomorrow and played the first half like we didn't want to be there. I thought we played with much greater intensity in the 2nd half -- but the Rams were incredibly hot.

sagegrouse

And if both teams shoot about 35-40% from 3 point range, we win by 10-15 points. Stats I heard on the way home said we were 4/17 and they were 10/14, both being aberrations.

TwoDukeTattoos
11-16-2008, 11:17 PM
"I didn't see any lobs down low. Did you, jumbo?"

Zoubek scored down low after an entry pass by Singler.

Thomas had a dunk on an assist by Singler.

Thomas had another dunk on an assist by Singler.

Thomas had a layup on an assist by Smith.

Eight points in the paint in the second half by the fives on assists.


Thank you for proving my point. With the exception of Zoub's basket, there were no classic lobs down low. C'mon, don't act like we have a true center. We don't, you know we don't, and we shouldn't pretend that we do. That doesn't mean that a guy here and there won't score in the lane. Of course, because we dribble-drive a lot, we'll score some in the lane. Still, that isn't a labeled as having a consistent post presence.

If only we'd landed PP, how good would this team be.

Rudy
11-16-2008, 11:22 PM
The only think LT needs to work on are his FT.

It would be nice if he had a shot he could make beyond a layup or dunk. The one jumper he took from about 8 feet looked pretty ugly. He is taking some passes and finishing better than last year, but he's not really going to be an offensive force. Still, he's continuing to do well as a role player.

Marty's one shot was a brick from three that hit the backboard but no rim.

mapei
11-16-2008, 11:24 PM
I'm not concerned about our lack of a good center because I can't remember the last time we had a true center. Shel was a terrific player, and had 5-like qualities for blocks and boards, but he was only 6'8" IIRC and was always introduced as a forward. It's just not a Duke thing to have a true center.

But we do have a history of good point guards, and so far I am missing all the potential that others see in Smith. His handle seems a little weak and so is his decisiveness. I get it that he's a better defender than Greg, but I'm not sure either one of them is an elite PG.

Kyle and Jon may have to keep carrying this team.

ice-9
11-16-2008, 11:30 PM
RE: our offensive struggles, I keep telling myself it's November, but isn't one of the benefits of having an experienced team supposed to be that we'd "click" sooner? Do we really miss DeMarc that much? Does his absence explain the lack of offensive flow in certain portions of the past few games?

Oriole Way
11-16-2008, 11:48 PM
Without a true center, 08-09 will be a repeat of 07-08. Only this time around it will be worse because everyone already knows how to beat us. Case in point, RI.

I'm not so sure about this.

I couldn't watch the game, but followed it via stattracker.

I should probably watch the game, but I'm honestly encouraged by tonight's win.

First of all, there's no way we win a game like this at any point over the past two years. We have been a 3-pt shooting team for 4+ years, and you would have seen Paulus, DeMarcus, Singler, Redick, etc. chucking 3's in a vain attempt to come back. Tonight, we had two tough, savvy, talented, incredibly intelligent players in Scheyer and Singler drive into the lane and make it to the line, hitting clutch free throws. We haven't had that ability in ages, and the best teams at all levels in basketball possess that capability.

We overcame a team that shot 60% (80% at one point for the second half believe, which is inasane) for the game and another player have the game of his life shooting 7-8 threes at one point. That just doesn't happen often, and it's nearly impossible to overcome. But we did.

Yes, our defense was lackluster. Our guard play needs to do a better job of penetrating and setting up teammates for scores. Gerald needs to assert himself. But these are things we can work on. We have Singler and Scheyer, and I don't think I would trade those two for any other two players on another team in the country.

It would be nice to have a true center, but virtually no top teams have one. North Carolina doesn't - they just have the best power forward in the country. UConn has Thabeet, and that's about it. If Lance Thomas continues his solid play, he can fill a need in the post even though he's not a 5.

There are concerns about this game, but I was encouraged by our ability to come back so late in the game without relying on the 3.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-16-2008, 11:50 PM
With regards to the Singlar Jawing incident,

Who is this Singlar kid?

Now I have to think of something special for my next post, #2,000.

wisteria
11-16-2008, 11:50 PM
RE: our offensive struggles, I keep telling myself it's November, but isn't one of the benefits of having an experienced team supposed to be that we'd "click" sooner? Do we really miss DeMarc that much? Does his absence explain the lack of offensive flow in certain portions of the past few games?

I think, it may be because that, while we have almost the same cast as last year, we are trying to play some different offense. Over the last 3 games, we've taken significant fewer percentages of 3's, and we are trying to work on incorporating a true 5. Of course, having a new PG who wasn't really a PG would affect our offense as well. That, and no one remembered to tell Gerald that the season has started.

wisteria
11-16-2008, 11:51 PM
Who is this Singlar kid?

We only have a Singular. :D

devildeac
11-16-2008, 11:56 PM
Who is this Singlar kid?

Now I have to think of something special for my next post, #2,000.

Please no bud light references:o;).

devildeac
11-17-2008, 12:01 AM
We only have a Singular. :D

I thought it was Cingular, but they merged with/were bought by AT&T:rolleyes:.

lifelongdevil
11-17-2008, 12:29 AM
sorry haven't read the entire thread as 8:30 classes call in the morning

1. everyone is down on G's performance today, but i though at the beginning of the game he made a point to be aggressive, taking a three and then taking it to the hole to start. He just couldn't stay on the floor. I dont think he takes possessions off as much as he doesn't seem to touch the ball that much. It seems he doesnt know how to dominate a game, maybe a consequence of playing alongside another star in high school?
2. I may be the biggest zoubek detractor, but he looked like a basketball player out there.
3. I cant think of a single time we put the ball into a post man with his back to the basket. Even if hes no threat to shoot, this would open up some outside shots
4. Where has miles gone? QUickly from starting to third big man. I thought his athleticism and leaping ability would ahve helped when we were being out rebounded

Dukiedevil
11-17-2008, 12:48 AM
We were outrebounded 27-23. OK, not a huge disparity. But when you couple that with the fact that we had no consistent scoring threat down low, it becomes a concern. When your shooters are in a slump, a team needs to have a center down low to bail them out. We don't have that. And if Plumlee doesn't develop, this will be last season all over again. I am simply calling it like it is.

They didn't miss many shots for us to rebound

Jumbo
11-17-2008, 12:56 AM
We were outrebounded 27-23. OK, not a huge disparity. But when you couple that with the fact that we had no consistent scoring threat down low, it becomes a concern. When your shooters are in a slump, a team needs to have a center down low to bail them out. We don't have that. And if Plumlee doesn't develop, this will be last season all over again. I am simply calling it like it is.

You're not "telling it like it is." You're expressing your opinion. It's not an objective fact.
We got outrebounded 31-29. We missed 30 field goals. They missed 24. So they had more opportunities for defensive rebounds. We had 13 offensive boards. They had 12.
And the duties of rebounding belong to an entire team, not just a "center."

Jumbo
11-17-2008, 12:59 AM
Yeah, but if you can't spread the minutes around in a November home game against an Atlantic 10 team, when do you think we'll start playing more guys? A deep rotation means guys playing meaningful minutes in meaningful games, not garbage time in a blowout.

Perhaps when the freshmen are more experienced and understand the system better and when Paulus isn't hurt?

ncexnyc
11-17-2008, 01:44 AM
Not much more you can say about Sunday's game. It's funny how people can watch the exact same game and come away with different points of view.

Jon and Kyle were both truly awesome. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind, that this is Kyle's team?

Nolan continues to show why he is our starting PG. His on the ball defense and his ability to get to the rim are quite obvious. He did pass-up several long shots at the end of the game. Hopefully as the season progresses, he will gain the confidence to take and make those shots.

Lance is making me eat my words. I honestly felt he would show us more of what we saw from him his first two year, but he has been very solid these first three games.

Brian seems to be progressing game by game. He's not the most mobile player out there and he doesn't have any business coming out from the basket as far as he did on several ocassions during the game, but he's becoming more confident so that's a positive.

Greg was hurt so it's hard to judge his performance.

G continues to be an enigma. It appears that he can do whatever he wants, but he just doesn't seem to demand the ball enough.

Not much playing time for any of the other kids. David, Marty, and Elliot had cameo appearances, but that was it.

I am somewhat surprised by the rebounding stats. I honestly thought we did worse than the numbers show. They seemed to get every loose ball.

I also thought our defense was terrible in the first half. Even though RI scored more points in the second half I felt our D was good, it was just offset by Baron's torrid shooting.

I believe the team is showing improvement. Turnovers were low, FT % was very high, and our crunchtime performance was outstanding.

Blowouts are nice, but games like this one are the ones we love to talk about.

Bob Green
11-17-2008, 01:50 AM
Blowouts are nice, but games like this one are the ones we love to talk about.

Exactly! A close hard fought win in November is great. People like to say that teams learn a lot from defeats, but I think teams learn a lot from close wins. I'm getting excited about the SIU game. We have to play'em and win'em one game at a time.

watzone
11-17-2008, 02:09 AM
Here was Scheyers final free throw to seal the game at 81-78

http://bluedevilnation.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/099.jpg

Regenman
11-17-2008, 02:54 AM
It's amazing. The same old spiel seemingly every year for the last 4 years. Zoubek looks great, Zoubek looks great, Thomas looks great, Thomas looks great, Oleg will bring in the necessary toughness this year count on it, Plumlee looks fantastic.

Then we actually play some games. I'll tell you what. How about we stop hyping players up in the pre-season???

TwoDukeTattoos
11-17-2008, 06:12 AM
You're not "telling it like it is." You're expressing your opinion. It's not an objective fact.
We got outrebounded 31-29. We missed 30 field goals. They missed 24. So they had more opportunities for defensive rebounds. We had 13 offensive boards. They had 12.
And the duties of rebounding belong to an entire team, not just a "center."

I'm not sure where you got your stats, but according to ESPN, http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=283210150, Duke was outrebounded 27-23, however, Duke did have the edge with O rebounds, 10-9. And I never said that the duty of rebounding fell soley on the center, nor did I imply it. I simply indicated that without true post presence, rebouding is likely to suffer. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

throatybeard
11-17-2008, 06:54 AM
was it just me? or did bucky keep saying "cingular" for Singler...?

I don't know since I had to leave during the 1H, but he did say that URI went to Syracuse and gave the entire crowd lockjaw. I suppose Baron was throwing rusty nails into the stands with his usual precision.

roywhite
11-17-2008, 07:15 AM
I'm not sure where you got your stats, but according to ESPN, http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=283210150, Duke was outrebounded 27-23, however, Duke did have the edge with O rebounds, 10-9. And I never said that the duty of rebounding fell soley on the center, nor did I imply it. I simply indicated that without true post presence, rebouding is likely to suffer. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1626596

This is the official boxscore. The stats that ESPN posts are somewhat useful, but the official boxscore is the final word. It also includes team rebounds, where no individual gets credit for the rebound, but the team gains possession after a miss.

Ima Facultiwyfe
11-17-2008, 07:19 AM
Here was Scheyers final free throw to seal the game at 81-78

http://bluedevilnation.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/099.jpg

Somebody should get the names and numbers of those "Cameron Lazies" in that pocket of SITTERS above the rail on the right!

The rest of Cameron was on it's feet! Get in the game, people!!!!!
Love, Ima

gw67
11-17-2008, 07:48 AM
The Devils were outshot and outrebounded by a smaller team at home. That is not what I would expect but it sometimes happens early in the season. Impressions after 3 games are

• Singler and Scheyer are playing well and carrying the team.
• Smith adds some offense and has taken care of the ball; however, five assists in three games is anemic.
• Henderson has not yet shown up. Hopefully, this will change in the near future.
• Zoubek, Thomas and Plumlee are adequate in the middle.
• Paulus is a gamer. I suspect that many senior, three-year starters who were shown the bench, would have taken the day off yesterday after his injury. Hopefully, he gets his health back because this team needs his steady play, passing and long range shooting.
• The foul shooting, other than Thomas, is outstanding.
• The outside shooting has been worse than expected.

I look forward to seeing the team play this week.

gw67

mepanchin
11-17-2008, 07:50 AM
I'm not sure where you got your stats, but according to ESPN, http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=283210150, Duke was outrebounded 27-23, however, Duke did have the edge with O rebounds, 10-9. And I never said that the duty of rebounding fell soley on the center, nor did I imply it. I simply indicated that without true post presence, rebouding is likely to suffer. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

But it isn't quite as simple as you make it out. Duke's last championship team outrebounded opponents by an average of about 1-2 rebounds a game and they had Boozer, Battier and Sanders. With the style we play, there is never going to be a dominant Duke team on the glass. But as long as we don't have games like we did against WVU, it shouldn't be a problem.

mgtr
11-17-2008, 08:09 AM
One stat that we surely won (and that is unfortunate) is time spent dribbling the ball around the perimeter. Way too much.

Wander
11-17-2008, 08:28 AM
It's amazing. The same old spiel seemingly every year for the last 4 years. Zoubek looks great, Zoubek looks great, Thomas looks great, Thomas looks great, Oleg will bring in the necessary toughness this year count on it, Plumlee looks fantastic.

Then we actually play some games. I'll tell you what. How about we stop hyping players up in the pre-season???

I don't remember Zoubek being significantly hyped up in the preseason. Olek had some excitement around him, but everyone who actually knew what they were talking about said multiple times he probably wouldn't be a big contributor this year. I don't think there was really a large number of people who believed Plumlee looked fantastic - just that he looked like our best option at center. I am a little surprised he didn't see more minutes in the past two games, but nothing to freak out about. And Lance Thomas DOES look much better.

allenmurray
11-17-2008, 08:49 AM
Rhode Island is now my second favorite team. My gosh they were fun to watch. If I were not a dedicated Duke fan I think I would have been rooting for them down the stretch.

We are lucky that Baron doesn't know how long 3.6 seconds is. He had enough time to drive anohter 8 - 12 feet and get off a more reasonable shot. The ball left his hands with 2 seconds left on the clock. Were it not for that time-managenet mistake on his part we'd be looking at a far differerent outcome.

jimsumner
11-17-2008, 08:51 AM
In the gap between the end of the game and the beginning of the formal post-game, I was discussing this stuff with a number of folks whose names you woudl recognize.

We all agreed that we had just watched an extraordinary college basketball game, one in which a tough, talented team had come into CIS and thrown one haymaker after another. Make no mistake, a lesser Duke team loses that game. But Duke made big play after big play after big play to claw to victory. I mean, do you think Baron normally makes 7 threes in a row in the same half? C'mon.

It was a privilege to watch that game.

But we also agreed that the Duke boards--all of them, not just DBR--would be innundated with negative posts. The reflexive Paulus-bashing. The reflexive Zoubek-bashing. The why-doesnt-K-play-the-rotation-I-want-him-to posts. The how-dare-Duke-not-be-in-mid-season-form-in November posts. Thanks for not letting me down. :(

You should have seen Mike Krzyzewski after the game. He looked like a child on Christmas morning. Because his team had shown him something he wanted to see. Because Scheyer and Singler had willed Duke to victory. Because the Cameron Crazies showed up in force.

But part of that joy was simply the joy of having participated in a game that deserved joy and celebration.

So relax and enjoy the win.

arnie
11-17-2008, 09:12 AM
But it isn't quite as simple as you make it out. Duke's last championship team outrebounded opponents by an average of about 1-2 rebounds a game and they had Boozer, Battier and Sanders. With the style we play, there is never going to be a dominant Duke team on the glass. But as long as we don't have games like we did against WVU, it shouldn't be a problem.

To me the difference can be found in the rebounding stats from last night - in 42 minutes of play, our "power" players, Zoubek, Thomas and Plumlee collected a total of 3 rebounds. A little unfair to include Plumlee since he only play a couple of minutes. I doubt Boozer every played significant minutes in a game in which he had only 3 bounds.

I think all the other parts are in place for this to be a great team - think Henderson will figure it out and Paulus will be a solid sub at two positions all year. We just need a stronger inside presence and I believe Plumlee will ultimately provide what's needed.

blueprofessor
11-17-2008, 09:13 AM
Great for Duke to fight back over and over again.
I was disappointed that the ESPN's desk host (Liner?) referred to the foul on Singler's hand as a "Cameron call" in the form of a rhetorical question as he summarized the game.

Best regards---Blueprofessor :):)

dyedwab
11-17-2008, 09:13 AM
In the gap between the end of the game and the beginning of the formal post-game, I was discussing this stuff with a number of folks whose names you woudl recognize.

We all agreed that we had just watched an extraordinary college basketball game, one in which a tough, talented team had come into CIS and thrown one haymaker after another. Make no mistake, a lesser Duke team loses that game. But Duke made big play after big play after big play to claw to victory. I mean, do you think Baron normally makes 7 threes in a row in the same half? C'mon.

It was a privilege to watch that game.

But we also agreed that the Duke boards--all of them, not just DBR--would be innundated with negative posts. The reflexive Paulus-bashing. The reflexive Zoubek-bashing. The why-doesnt-K-play-the-rotation-I-want-him-to posts. The how-dare-Duke-not-be-in-mid-season-form-in November posts. Thanks for not letting me down. :(

You should have seen Mike Krzyzewski after the game. He looked like a child on Christmas morning. Because his team had shown him something he wanted to see. Because Scheyer and Singler had willed Duke to victory. Because the Cameron Crazies showed up in force.

But part of that joy was simply the joy of having participated in a game that deserved joy and celebration.

So relax and enjoy the win.

Having not had the privilege to watch this game, but only read about it, I can say that I am sorry I missed it.

Also, one really quick point. A win like this is important so that this team, this year, understands that they can win games like this. Tough wins against a team playing at a high level? Sounds like what a team needs to learn how to do to suceed in March.

whereinthehellami
11-17-2008, 09:17 AM
Here was Scheyers final free throw to seal the game at 81-78

http://bluedevilnation.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/099.jpg

Great picture. Look at the players faces. I think Thomas got caught up in the moment. Jon knew that was money.

DukeUsul
11-17-2008, 09:24 AM
In the gap between the end of the game and the beginning of the formal post-game, I was discussing this stuff with a number of folks whose names you woudl recognize.

We all agreed that we had just watched an extraordinary college basketball game, one in which a tough, talented team had come into CIS and thrown one haymaker after another. Make no mistake, a lesser Duke team loses that game. But Duke made big play after big play after big play to claw to victory. I mean, do you think Baron normally makes 7 threes in a row in the same half? C'mon.

It was a privilege to watch that game.

But we also agreed that the Duke boards--all of them, not just DBR--would be innundated with negative posts. The reflexive Paulus-bashing. The reflexive Zoubek-bashing. The why-doesnt-K-play-the-rotation-I-want-him-to posts. The how-dare-Duke-not-be-in-mid-season-form-in November posts. Thanks for not letting me down. :(

You should have seen Mike Krzyzewski after the game. He looked like a child on Christmas morning. Because his team had shown him something he wanted to see. Because Scheyer and Singler had willed Duke to victory. Because the Cameron Crazies showed up in force.

But part of that joy was simply the joy of having participated in a game that deserved joy and celebration.

So relax and enjoy the win.

Hear hear! I was so happy to be at such a great game!

But I'm still not sure why K didn't play Nick Horvath. Man that guy was KILLIN' in the summer pickup games! He easily could have had a 20 and 10 game and it never would have been in question. :D

throatybeard
11-17-2008, 09:54 AM
In the gap between the end of the game and the beginning of the formal post-game, I was discussing this stuff with a number of folks whose names you woudl recognize.

We all agreed that we had just watched an extraordinary college basketball game, one in which a tough, talented team had come into CIS and thrown one haymaker after another. Make no mistake, a lesser Duke team loses that game. But Duke made big play after big play after big play to claw to victory. I mean, do you think Baron normally makes 7 threes in a row in the same half? C'mon.

It was a privilege to watch that game.

But we also agreed that the Duke boards--all of them, not just DBR--would be innundated with negative posts. The reflexive Paulus-bashing. The reflexive Zoubek-bashing. The why-doesnt-K-play-the-rotation-I-want-him-to posts. The how-dare-Duke-not-be-in-mid-season-form-in November posts. Thanks for not letting me down. :(

You should have seen Mike Krzyzewski after the game. He looked like a child on Christmas morning. Because his team had shown him something he wanted to see. Because Scheyer and Singler had willed Duke to victory. Because the Cameron Crazies showed up in force.

But part of that joy was simply the joy of having participated in a game that deserved joy and celebration.

So relax and enjoy the win.

What he said. Further, I think there's a good argument to be made for the board being closed for about 6 hours after every MBB game, win lose rain or shine. After every close game, we collectively embarrass ourselves.

Teton Jack
11-17-2008, 10:11 AM
1. There had to be some RI woofing based on Kyle's reaction. Baron hits a long distance 3 over Singler; Singler pops a three and "jaws" at Baron. From there Singler and Scheyer take over. When the time comes for the big defensive stop, Singler covers Baron. Like Laettner, he wasn't going to let Duke lose this one. This was personal.
2. Bucky was a very good recruiter. The 1969 freshman team was the only one to go undefeated back when freshmen couldn't play varsity ball. Not even David Thompson's State freshman team could do that. The problem was that no one could stand to play for him for an entire 4 year stretch. Of the the top 5 on that freshman team, only 2 stayed to complete their eligibility, Melchionni and Shaw. The rest left. The reason wasn't always Bucky, but it was for a number of the players. Over the next four years, there was a steady progression of people who entered the program only to leave after a year or two.

Teton Jack

Highlander
11-17-2008, 10:23 AM
Random thoughts.

I watched the game on DVR tape delay. I successfully avoided seeing the final score, but after watching us go down 10 in the first half I lost control and had to take a peek at the final score. It made for a much less stressful evening watching the game. Call it cheating if you want, but my heart rate never got over 85.

However, I must have said "are you kidding me" at least five or six times in the second half when Baron shot. It was so bad that my wife made me think of another catch phrase b/c she was tired of hearing that one. I was also annoyed at the announcers, as I often am during close games. Listening to them talk about "Kyle Cingular" and how that play "brought the crazies to their feet" over and over again was more than I could take.

I thought rebounding was a big problem for us tonight, no matter what the stat sheet said. URI missed 24 shots, and got 12 offensive rebounds. That, coupled with the fact that the basketball was on fire during the second half (NBA JAMZ anyone?), meant that they had very few empty trips down the floor. It's tough to catch up when the other team scores almost every posession, and you are trading 3 for 2 on a bunch of those posessions. Lance and Zoubeck ideally should get us 7-10 rebounds a game, but it was the whole team. We didn't block out well and didn't crash the boards (and they didn't miss much either).

Thomas looked good overall. He gave us servicable minutes down low, especially on offense. His two weaknesses, IMO, are his FT shooting and rebounding, both of which need some work if we are going to make some noise late in the season. I think he has definitely improved his shot selection and movement w/o the ball since last year, and looks a ton more confident going to the hoop. That alone gives us a dimension we were lacking last year.

All of our guards had trouble staying with URI players on the dribble drive (especially Smith), and we seemed to play pretty good defense for only the first 20-25 seconds of the shot clock, then break down at the end of the shot clock. That could be because we expected URI to run and gun, but instead they played half court offense, and really picked us apart, especially late in the shot clock.

One last thing - these announcers need some new talking points. The one about coach's not getting Olympic medals is getting "Nelson trained with a Navy Seal" type run.

MulletMan
11-17-2008, 10:34 AM
I knew Jumbo would lash out at my "oversimplified" analysis. Sometimes, Jumbo isn't as smart as he thinks he is. Dude, I didn't attempt to break down every stat column. I simply stated the obvious. The paint was empty and five guys were trying to hit jumpers. I didn't see any lobs down low. Did you, jumbo? Check it: all teams that are successful in March have legit low-post presences. Right now, Duke doesn't have that. If you think they do, you're delusional. And if you don't think they need it, you're delusional.

Did you watch the game? I saw a couple of lobs to Z, I saw Thomas rolling into the lane off of picks in the high post and I saw us driving into the lane at will at the end of the game.

Sheesh man, Thomas had 10 points on 5 of 7 shooting in 28 minutes. Singler had 12 points inside the 3-point line on 3-6 shooting, and 6-8 from the FT stripe... and he didn't get those trips to the line shooting 3s.

Let's look at LT's baskets...

16:18: Put back for 2
16:00: Dunk off of a screen and roll with Singler
13:57: Another dunk
9:27: Another dunk off a screen and roll with Singler
3:54: Lay in off a dime from Nolan on the baseline

Yeah... it would appear that he was pretty useless inside. Excellent analysis.

allenmurray
11-17-2008, 10:37 AM
1. There had to be some RI woofing

Probably, but it was well earned.

sagegrouse
11-17-2008, 10:43 AM
I wouldn't draw many conclusions from a game in November.

I thought we were unfocused in the first half, despite Coach K's insistence that we were playing well. In fact, I thought we acted like we didn't want to play this game.

The second half was a much better effort and better shooting as well. It's just that we Jimmy Baron was unconscious.

FWIW, I think we really need Greg in the game to make 3-pt. shots. If we are 4 for 16 from 3 point land, we aren'g goping to win against really good teams.

sagegrouse
'I agree with an earlier comment that there will be some changes in the lineup and substitutions for the NY games'

RepoMan
11-17-2008, 10:44 AM
Handwringing about K's rotation and bench use. Check

Moaning about the lack of production at the 5. Check

Befuddlement at the lack of burn for the freshman. Check

Griping about Paulus's D. Check

Complaints about the lack of a "true" pg. Check

Wistfully longing for recruits that got away. Check

Bitching about the announcers. Check


I'm not sure about the players, but the Board definitely is in mid-season form.

Note that I say mid-season, not post-season, because missing from this thread is griping about minimal PT for Marty and and pining for more zone D. I am confident that we can get there though.


Seriously, sure, there are things that we can wonder about. (For example, G certainly hasn't grabbed the bull by the horns through the first three games.) But I find it hard to take anything from this game other than that the team found a way to win a great basketball game, notwithstanding the fact that the kid on the other team kept sticking them with outrageous daggers that would have completely deflated most teams. The will to win shown by the team is a sign all great teams exhibit, and we will gain great confidence from this win.

MulletMan
11-17-2008, 10:46 AM
Dear Duke Fans,

I can't bear to read past the 6th page of this thread. Can't bear it.

Remember when K won the gold medal, and he talked about how he wasn't relieved to win, but he was elated? Remember? Well, you should take some time to enjoy these games. Yesterday's game was a classic that we should all just have reveled in. You wanna know a secret? After Baron made his 4th or 5th three, I turned to my buddy and said, "Damn I hope they keep getting him the ball just to see what he does next!" I feel lucky to have seen such a performance.

And you know what else? We won! And we won in great clutch fashion! Guys taking the ball hard to the hole! Guys dropping FTs! Guys playing great D! Guys not taking any shi@(!t from the other team (yea, Singler was woofing, but that was becuase intht efirst half James was all up in his grill and then Baron started woofing at him later... which he deserved to).! Let's have some attitude. Let's have Henderson throw down one of the biggest dunks I've ever seen and then have a smug look on his face as he jogs back down court. Let's have some swagger. Everyone wants to hate on us? Fine. Let's give them a reason... they're gonna do it anyway.

Honestly, enjoy the game as much as you enjoy the win... you'll live longer.

-Mullet

jeff
11-17-2008, 10:51 AM
The last 2 posts are my thought x10.

III
11-17-2008, 11:11 AM
Absolutely.

Despite the (several) scary moments throughout the game, it was an honor to witness such an impressive individual performance in Baron, and to see our team come together and win an incredible basketball game.

Even more, to be a part of the crowd in the final 5 minutes of that game?! Unbelievable. It was one of the more electrifying experiences I've had in Cameron in my four years at Duke.

A little concerning? Maybe.
An incredible experience? Definitely

watzone
11-17-2008, 11:28 AM
In the gap between the end of the game and the beginning of the formal post-game, I was discussing this stuff with a number of folks whose names you woudl recognize.

We all agreed that we had just watched an extraordinary college basketball game, one in which a tough, talented team had come into CIS and thrown one haymaker after another. Make no mistake, a lesser Duke team loses that game. But Duke made big play after big play after big play to claw to victory. I mean, do you think Baron normally makes 7 threes in a row in the same half? C'mon.

It was a privilege to watch that game.

But we also agreed that the Duke boards--all of them, not just DBR--would be innundated with negative posts. The reflexive Paulus-bashing. The reflexive Zoubek-bashing. The why-doesnt-K-play-the-rotation-I-want-him-to posts. The how-dare-Duke-not-be-in-mid-season-form-in November posts. Thanks for not letting me down. :(

You should have seen Mike Krzyzewski after the game. He looked like a child on Christmas morning. Because his team had shown him something he wanted to see. Because Scheyer and Singler had willed Duke to victory. Because the Cameron Crazies showed up in force.

But part of that joy was simply the joy of having participated in a game that deserved joy and celebration.

So relax and enjoy the win.

Well said. This was a special game and those who were there will not soon forget the incredible intensity. It's funny how the old guard all sees this as a positive. We now return you to the nit picking.

camion
11-17-2008, 11:32 AM
I concur with MM and III. I thought it was a wonderful game despite us being sort of unfocused and sucky during the first 15 minutes. The last half was back and forth in-your-face basketball. It was a great game that we won with clutch plays.

Rhode Island played a phenomenal game, and we still beat them.

Baron had a career day, and we still beat them.

They had a second player with a career shooting day, and we still beat them.

I'll take that.

BTW, I looked it up and that is the best Baron has shot in the games where I could find stats. He hits around 41% of threes as a rule and that's pretty good, but I couldn't find where he's ever hit 80% and particularly on well contested shots. He just had a great shooting day. Oh, and we still won.

watzone
11-17-2008, 11:34 AM
Somebody should get the names and numbers of those "Cameron Lazies" in that pocket of SITTERS above the rail on the right!

The rest of Cameron was on it's feet! Get in the game, people!!!!!
Love, Ima

The picture is not scaled down. If you go to the far left side, look at the faces of Barry Jacobs, Jim Sumner and Al Featherston on press row. You can tell they were watching what they considered to be special. I will try to add a pic when the ball went through the basket.

Here is a game story I did yesterday. Check out the top picture which shows what two players (Singler and Scheyer) did to defend Baron on his last trip down. They kept him from having any hope to launch a three. While the quality could be better in the shot - a couple of crazies heads - it shows exactly what happened. It's a testament to the duo willing Duke to a win.

http://bluedevilnation.net/?p=1323

roywhite
11-17-2008, 11:37 AM
Wasn't fortunate enough to attend or see yesterday's game on TV, but I like the way the schedule is working out for the development of this team. The RI game was obviously a high intensity game against a very capable opponent. And now 2 games in NY, and a good December schedule highlighted by Purdue and Xavier. Great prep for conference play.

throatybeard
11-17-2008, 11:42 AM
Wasn't fortunate enough to attend or see yesterday's game on TV, but I like the way the schedule is working out for the development of this team. The RI game was obviously a high intensity game against a very capable opponent. And now 2 games in NY, and a good December schedule highlighted by Purdue and Xavier. Great prep for conference play.

Yes. And, let's don't sleep on Davidson. They were inches from the FF last year.

KenTankerous
11-17-2008, 11:47 AM
Elite programs will always bring out the A game in opponents, especially in November as upsets are most ripe this time of year.

Good teams in those elite programs find ways - like stepping up and hitting 13 of 13 from the line, or making a critical block on an unstoppable player to forge a win against the firestorm. A lesser squad crumbles under 80% shooting.

Not so good teams get Gardner-Webbed and VMI'ed.

Relish the win.

Kedsy
11-17-2008, 11:48 AM
Perhaps when the freshmen are more experienced and understand the system better and when Paulus isn't hurt?

Not sure why Paulus's injury-limited time on the floor would mean fewer players getting minutes. But putting that aside, the freshmen can obviously get more practice experience as the season progresses, but game experience is entirely different. If they're not playing now it's hard to envision them cutting their teeth in ACC games.

quickgtp
11-17-2008, 11:51 AM
Yes. And, let's don't sleep on Davidson. They were inches from the FF last year.

OH NO, if Curry goes off "Baron Style" then I will simply lose my mind!

allenmurray
11-17-2008, 12:15 PM
Somebody should get the names and numbers of those "Cameron Lazies" in that pocket of SITTERS above the rail on the right!

The rest of Cameron was on it's feet! Get in the game, people!!!!!
Love, Ima

Certainly not an excuse for all, but there have been times that I chose to remain sitting, even at the end of a tight and exciting game. I have a friend who gives me tickets on occassion - she brings with her to the games her 88 year old mother - who faithfully attends virtually every basketball and football game. I am not going to stand up and block the view of someone 40 years my senior. In addition, if someone else stands and blocks her view I will politely ask them to sit, so as not to block the view of someone who has been attending games since tghe Roosevelt administration. If you have been attneding games regularly in the 66 years since your graduation you have a right to watch without having your view blocked.

ncexnyc
11-17-2008, 12:27 PM
Not sure why Paulus's injury-limited time on the floor would mean fewer players getting minutes. But putting that aside, the freshmen can obviously get more practice experience as the season progresses, but game experience is entirely different. If they're not playing now it's hard to envision them cutting their teeth in ACC games.

Well this is something I've always questioned. Is shortening your rotation to ike out a win in November/December, worth the real life, crunchtime game experience a player like Plumlee or Williams would gain for use in March?

JBDuke
11-17-2008, 12:59 PM
In the gap between the end of the game and the beginning of the formal post-game, I was discussing this stuff with a number of folks whose names you woudl recognize.

We all agreed that we had just watched an extraordinary college basketball game, one in which a tough, talented team had come into CIS and thrown one haymaker after another. Make no mistake, a lesser Duke team loses that game. But Duke made big play after big play after big play to claw to victory. I mean, do you think Baron normally makes 7 threes in a row in the same half? C'mon.

It was a privilege to watch that game.

But we also agreed that the Duke boards--all of them, not just DBR--would be innundated with negative posts. The reflexive Paulus-bashing. The reflexive Zoubek-bashing. The why-doesnt-K-play-the-rotation-I-want-him-to posts. The how-dare-Duke-not-be-in-mid-season-form-in November posts. Thanks for not letting me down. :(

You should have seen Mike Krzyzewski after the game. He looked like a child on Christmas morning. Because his team had shown him something he wanted to see. Because Scheyer and Singler had willed Duke to victory. Because the Cameron Crazies showed up in force.

But part of that joy was simply the joy of having participated in a game that deserved joy and celebration.

So relax and enjoy the win.

Jim, I envy you your courtside seat at this one. As I watched, my thought was that this would have been a great game to have been inside CIS - intense action, some great basketball, especially for November, a crowd that was into it, and close finish with Duke pulling it out. Those are always great times in Cameron.

By the way, we have photographic evidence of you sitting between Jacobs and Featherston, so the jig is up. Now we know where you get your great analysis! ;-)

jimsumner
11-17-2008, 01:03 PM
FWIW, ESPNU is showing this game now, i.e. 1 P.M.

jimsumner
11-17-2008, 01:22 PM
JBDuke,

Trust me, we don't have many conversations at press row when the game is going on. You can literally be shouting, six inches from someone's ear and they can't hear a word you're saying.

LetItBD08
11-17-2008, 02:17 PM
You can literally be shouting, six inches from someone's ear and they can't hear a word you're saying.

That makes me smile.

Slight non-sequitur: For some reason reminded me of the Carolina game in March when the infamous bull horn siren was accidentally turned on and blaring for several minutes in the line monitor section and no one realized.

rsvman
11-17-2008, 02:42 PM
This game was a Belmont flashback for me. Didn't anybody else see the similarities? Quick team with a lot of hustle and hot from the outside pushes Duke to its absolute limit, but Duke comes out of the game with the W.

Yes, these games are important in the team's learning how to win and they will make them tougher in March, but the thing I learned is that anybody could potentially beat you at any time. It only takes one loss to be out of the tournament, and the game is only 40 minutes long. If the other team is "in the zone," it could be lights out on any given night.

Still, it was a great game and I very much enjoyed watching it.

COYS
11-17-2008, 02:59 PM
This game was a Belmont flashback for me. Didn't anybody else see the similarities? Quick team with a lot of hustle and hot from the outside pushes Duke to its absolute limit, but Duke comes out of the game with the W.

Yes, these games are important in the team's learning how to win and they will make them tougher in March, but the thing I learned is that anybody could potentially beat you at any time. It only takes one loss to be out of the tournament, and the game is only 40 minutes long. If the other team is "in the zone," it could be lights out on any given night.

Still, it was a great game and I very much enjoyed watching it.

It is similar to a certain extent, but I would definitely say that if we had played as poorly against RIU as we did against Belmont, we would have lost by double digits. Belmont didn't come close to lighting it up as well from outside.

Saratoga2
11-17-2008, 03:01 PM
The game was rebroadcast this afternoon and I enjoyed watching it again. That was a great game to watch.

camion
11-17-2008, 03:21 PM
Curry has a more varied arsenal than Baron and could very well score more than he did, but I will be surprised Curry shoots 80% on three pointers. That's the equivalent of shooting 12 out of 10 on two pointers. Not shabby at all.

Being both a Davidson and Duke grad I'm looking forward to the game.

jimsumner
11-17-2008, 03:25 PM
Keep in mind that one of Baron's two misses from three was the on-the-run shot from mid-court at the end of the game. Doesn't really seem fair to count that against him.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-17-2008, 03:31 PM
I also got to watch it again, and it was much more enjoyable knowing the outcome as things were playing out. On second viewing I was also able to appreciate just how well we took control down the stretch, how clutch Jon and Kyle both were, how G made several great moves when he did assert himself, and how much fun it is to watch Lance out there. I'm still concerned about several things, but if Baron didn't get quite so hot I think we'd have won this game by a comfortable margin. A great game to win with a lot of great things we can build on in a major way.

Jumbo
11-17-2008, 03:42 PM
Not sure why Paulus's injury-limited time on the floor would mean fewer players getting minutes. But putting that aside, the freshmen can obviously get more practice experience as the season progresses, but game experience is entirely different. If they're not playing now it's hard to envision them cutting their teeth in ACC games.

Would you like me to list all the Duke freshmen who didn't get many minutes in a close, early season game, only to play more later? Because I can. It'll just be annoying.

It's silly to think that they won't improve as the year goes on. You can put down the importance of practice all you want, but that's where improvement starts. When they grasp concepts better in practice, they'll get more minutes in games. Right now, it's easy to see their mistakes in games.

Jumbo
11-17-2008, 03:45 PM
Well this is something I've always questioned. Is shortening your rotation to ike out a win in November/December, worth the real life, crunchtime game experience a player like Plumlee or Williams would gain for use in March?

How do you know that "real life, crunchtime game experience" would actually be a "gain?" I've told this story countless times on the board, but it's worth repeating. A team -- not Duke -- once had a freshman who joined a veteran group with high expectations. There was no question he was talented, but he also had trouble picking up the team's system in practice. Regardless, the coach threw him out there right away, against some good teams in tight games. That playing experience didn't help at all. He regressed as a player and lost his confidence. By the end of the season, he was on the scout team in practice.

Giving a guy critical game experience before he's ready can also have a negative effect.

little rhody
11-17-2008, 03:52 PM
So all of you "cameron crazies" are all warm and fuzzy today after stealing one at the buzzer. I say steal because if you watch the last eight mins of the game there were four very bad calls, all against Rhode Island and that is what sealed the deal. Not your defense or great coaching but rather the men in stripped shirts. 32 free throws to 16 come on!!!
You were out played on the glass, outplayed from 3 point land, we had less turnovers and more steals. The only glearing difference was the part that can't be controlled. FREE THROWS It's not enough that you get any recruit you want. That your on national television every week but you need help from the refs to pull out a win at home against a mid major.
WE WERE ROBBED ENJOY IT !!

jimsumner
11-17-2008, 04:00 PM
Don't you just hate it when the officiating is so glearing?

Duke79UNLV77
11-17-2008, 04:01 PM
not to mention when the officials have stripped shirts. i sure am glad dick paparo never did that.

arnie
11-17-2008, 04:16 PM
So all of you "cameron crazies" are all warm and fuzzy today after stealing one at the buzzer. I say steal because if you watch the last eight mins of the game there were four very bad calls, all against Rhode Island and that is what sealed the deal. Not your defense or great coaching but rather the men in stripped shirts. 32 free throws to 16 come on!!!
You were out played on the glass, outplayed from 3 point land, we had less turnovers and more steals. The only glearing difference was the part that can't be controlled. FREE THROWS It's not enough that you get any recruit you want. That your on national television every week but you need help from the refs to pull out a win at home against a mid major.
WE WERE ROBBED ENJOY IT !!

We (RI) had less turnovers - I guess the local press must also be in on the deception since they report Duke turned it over about 1/2 the number of times RI turned.

BlueintheFace
11-17-2008, 04:19 PM
So all of you "cameron crazies" are all warm and fuzzy today after stealing one at the buzzer. I say steal because if you watch the last eight mins of the game there were four very bad calls, all against Rhode Island and that is what sealed the deal. Not your defense or great coaching but rather the men in stripped shirts. 32 free throws to 16 come on!!!

Ahhh yes, the all too familiar cry of a basketball fan who's team has just lost a close game. The sky is blue, the grass is green... all is right with the world.


You were out played on the glass

31-29 in rebounds is hardly being outplayed... sounds pretty even to me.


outplayed from 3 point land

I'll give you this. That Baron kid is a force and had an amazing game.


we had less turnovers and more steals.

This is just false. Rhode Island had 18 turnovers. Duke had 10. Rhode Island had 4 steals. Duke had 7.


The only glearing difference was the part that can't be controlled. FREE THROWS

Maybe if URI drove a little bit more to the basket instead of focusing the entire last fourth of the game on getting Baron an open three, they might have found themselves at the line a bit more


ENJOY IT !!
I always enjoy it when my team wins, don't you?

millerecu
11-17-2008, 04:27 PM
Let me first say "what a game". I found myself not watching the game but watching Baron wherever he was on the court. At one time I swear he bounced the ball off my head and still made it (but it was my wife hitting me in the head from cussing too much). Anyway, I have a question about a particular player but I don't want it to come across as bashing. But what is Henderson doing or not doing that it seems he disappears in the offense? Are we playing teams he doesn't match up to very well? Is he hurt? I just think he has the skill and athleticism to be the best player on the team but it just doesn't happen. Anyway was hoping someone like JasonEvans or Watzone could shed some light.

rsvman
11-17-2008, 04:33 PM
So all of you "cameron crazies" are all warm and fuzzy today after stealing one at the buzzer. I say steal because if you watch the last eight mins of the game there were four very bad calls, all against Rhode Island and that is what sealed the deal. Not your defense or great coaching but rather the men in stripped shirts. 32 free throws to 16 come on!!!
You were out played on the glass, outplayed from 3 point land, we had less turnovers and more steals. The only glearing difference was the part that can't be controlled. FREE THROWS It's not enough that you get any recruit you want. That your on national television every week but you need help from the refs to pull out a win at home against a mid major.
WE WERE ROBBED ENJOY IT !!

Apparently you failed to notice the missed 5-second calls, all of which would have gone against you. Bad calls even out in most games.

I don't blame you for being upset. I would be, too, if I were in your shoes.

You should focus more of your energy on being proud of your team for how well they played, and less on blaming third parties for the narrow loss. Congratulations on a well played game; our best to your team for the rest of the season. Enjoy it.

Kedsy
11-17-2008, 04:33 PM
Would you like me to list all the Duke freshmen who didn't get many minutes in a close, early season game, only to play more later? Because I can. It'll just be annoying.

Well, if that year's team had a 7 or 8 deep veteran rotation already then I doubt we've seen very many Duke freshmen who didn't play in November but were consistently playing major minutes in February, unless someone suffered a major injury. I doubt there've been many even sporadically playing major minutes in February, unless multiple regulars got in serious foul trouble.

On your other point, I agree getting thrown into the fire before a player is ready can be detrimental. But I don't get the feeling that either Williams or Plumlee would have been burned that badly by Rhode Island.

edensquad
11-17-2008, 04:46 PM
Anyone find it interesting that our two point guards (Smith/Paulus) have combined for just 4 assists in the last 2 games? Conversely, Singler/Scheyer have combined for 15 assists....they are not only scoring, but finding their teammates as well.

BlueintheFace
11-17-2008, 04:55 PM
Anyone find it interesting that our two point guards (Smith/Paulus) have combined for just 4 assists in the last 2 games? Conversely, Singler/Scheyer have combined for 15 assists....they are not only scoring, but finding their teammates as well.

This is largely due to the nature of our offense. Offensive sets have largely looked like this: 1) give the ball to Scheyer or Singler or Henderson on the wings... 2) give them a screen and allow them to create with 3) shooters on the opposite wing and opposite elbow ready for the kick out three and 4) The screener rolling/ popping to the top of the key or free throw line.

juise
11-17-2008, 04:58 PM
Anyone find it interesting that our two point guards (Smith/Paulus) have combined for just 4 assists in the last 2 games? Conversely, Singler/Scheyer have combined for 15 assists....they are not only scoring, but finding their teammates as well.

I think that point guards usually generate assists by distributing the ball to capable scorers (some are good enough to breakdown the defense and make anyone a scorer). I think that scorers can generate assists by drawing defensive help (or just distracting defenders) and hitting the open man. It would appear that Kyle and John are garnering respect from opposing defenses and taking advantage of those opportunities for their teammates.

Clipsfan
11-17-2008, 05:46 PM
I enjoyed the game highly, although I made the mistake of not recording beyond the 2 hour window, thinking that if the game ran long it wouldn't matter. Thankfully, I still got to the last minute of the game, I just didn't see Duke pull it out.

It looked to me like at least one of Baron's shots was credited as a 3 when it should have been a 2 (hard to believe, as he bombed from 25 feet half the time). Did anyone else notice that he took off from inside the 3 pt line on the shot that took their score from 71 to 74? I may be wrong about which one it was, but it was from the right side near the top and was with Scheyer in his face. In other words, it was yet another ridiculous shot he hit. I was going to be annoyed if it turned out that one point made the difference between winning and losing...

Lulu
11-17-2008, 06:18 PM
I don't understand why some people here are so insistent on defending our "bigs" whenever someone else writes that they are a point of weakness for us now, at least in terms of winning a championship. I love our guys and hope they develop and do as well as possible, but can we all just acknowledge that we do not have a Brand, Boozer, or even a Shelden these days? I think that's the point. This is the type of NBA PF post player we had when we last won or at least threatened to win the title. Opposing teams weren't playing these guys for a kick out pass, if anything they were trying to double-team the shot and praying they wouldn't foul in the process. Heck, even when we had these guys ESPN et al would still criticize us for not having depth in the post or a true center (not a concern these days imo).

I hope Lance is as improved as everyone seems to think, but it would take a nearly impossible amount of improvement for him to compete with the 3 above.

I think that's the point. Even though we might win any one game without such post presence, it's hard to imagine getting lucky enough to make it all the way through the tourney, not that I'm not counting on it.

Kedsy
11-17-2008, 06:24 PM
Would you like me to list all the Duke freshmen who didn't get many minutes in a close, early season game, only to play more later? Because I can. It'll just be annoying.

You know, I've been thinking about it and, sure, I'd love to see that list.

jimsumner
11-17-2008, 06:47 PM
Christian Laettner played six minutes in his first game at Duke, an 80-55 win over Kentucky.

Robert Brickey and Chris Carrawell also played six minutes in their first games as freshmen.

Turk
11-17-2008, 07:11 PM
Christian Laettner played six minutes in his first game at Duke, an 80-55 win over Kentucky.

Robert Brickey and Chris Carrawell also played six minutes in their first games as freshmen.

And by the end of Laettner's career, in his third-to-last game, Duke narrowly edged Kentucky by a point at the buzzer, so clearly his career started out slowly and then faded out altogether, as evidenced by a 24 point deterioration in the victory margin against UK... :D:D

And Rhody was the 3rd game of the season, not the first, so this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison either... I think the NCAA should not let freshmen play on the varsity any more. It would certainly remove a common complaint on the boards.... :D:D

(Jim, I know you are dead serious and are great at getting facts and stats to counter hyperbole and high emotions. On the other hand, I am joking. It might not be funny, but I am joking).

Kedsy
11-17-2008, 07:20 PM
Christian Laettner played six minutes in his first game at Duke, an 80-55 win over Kentucky.

Robert Brickey and Chris Carrawell also played six minutes in their first games as freshmen.

Good examples. It's interesting to see that all three of these guys racked up bigger minutes in the post-season their freshmen year than they did in the season. Brickey was still playing single digit minutes as late as February 15, but by the end of February was starting and playing 30+ minutes against Carolina.

So I take it all back. Well, almost all. The fact that we've gone back as far as we have for these examples suggests to me it doesn't happen all that often.

RelativeWays
11-17-2008, 07:38 PM
I find it laughable that the typical morons are trying to play off that last foul call Singler got that sent him to the line, even ESPN pulled that crap. In the replay he was VISIBLY hit across the arm, no doubt in anyones mind. Is that allowed all the sudden? Is there a rule change I'm not aware of? Hansbeaker gets that call all day

throatybeard
11-17-2008, 07:49 PM
I don't have the stats in front of me, but I don't think [one of my heroes] Brian Davis played that much in 1988-89 or 1989-90.

Wojo went into the witness protection program once Gaudet took over in 1994-95. I don't think I have to tell people about his 1996-97 and 1997-98 seasons.

WhiteboardGuy
11-17-2008, 08:28 PM
Keep in mind that one of Baron's two misses from three was the on-the-run shot from mid-court at the end of the game. Doesn't really seem fair to count that against him.

Although his right foot was clearly over the line when he hit that three to put URI up 74-67. I was stunned that wasn't reviewed by the refs.

mgtr
11-17-2008, 09:03 PM
Great catch! I wonder if that ever happened to JJ? Probably.

dukegirlinsc
11-17-2008, 09:49 PM
It's November.

I was expecting this team to fold at any minute last night and just completely stop playing, which they've been known to do a lot in the past few years. I didn't really see that happen last night. It reminded me a lot of the WVU and VCU games, except with better outcomes. :rolleyes:

dukegirlinsc
11-17-2008, 09:51 PM
Although his right foot was clearly over the line when he hit that three to put URI up 74-67. I was stunned that wasn't reviewed by the refs.

I was actually watching the game at a sports bar, and had to literally beg for *god forbid* one of the 30 tv's that were all showing the SAME football games, be changed to the duke game. And of course it was the smallest tv in the place. But anyways, rant aside, I also thought he was behind the line. But I was certain it was the Gin & Tonic.

Newton_14
11-17-2008, 10:03 PM
Good examples. It's interesting to see that all three of these guys racked up bigger minutes in the post-season their freshmen year than they did in the season. Brickey was still playing single digit minutes as late as February 15, but by the end of February was starting and playing 30+ minutes against Carolina.

So I take it all back. Well, almost all. The fact that we've gone back as far as we have for these examples suggests to me it doesn't happen all that often.


A few more candidates, though I am not 100% sure. Would have to look it up: Daniel Ewing, Shelden Williams, I believe played more at the end of their freshman year than in the early games. As for improvement over a career, Marty Clark and Lee Melchionni played very little as freshman but a lot later in their career...

I do think we will see more and more of EWill and Miles as the season moves along...

Newton_14
11-17-2008, 10:21 PM
I watched the first half again earlier this evening, plan to watch the 2nd half again as well.

I thought the guys came out ready but just flat out got punched in the gut. Even in the 1st half, RI hit a ton of tough shots. 2 three's from the corner with hands in their face, mid-range jumpers with hands in their face, and on top of that, every little thing was going their way, loose balls, long reobunds, etc

Duke did not take that many bad shots, several "good" shots just did not fall..

the offense is not there yet but it's Nov and I expect it will come together over time...

Greg's defense and overall play for that matter was much better yesterday in his 11 minutes, than has been suggested..

Lance was solid and is so much better than last year..

Jon and Kyle are both playing at a high level and when the offense as a whole comes together this team will be tough to beat..

On the whole, if I have ever watched a better game in November, I do not recall it.. Props to RI for bringin it, and props to our guys for responding and winning a great game...

Yes their are lots of areas for improvement.. good thing is this is November and not March, and best of all it was a win instead of what could have very easily been a loss....

sagegrouse
11-17-2008, 10:30 PM
I was actually watching the game at a sports bar, and had to literally beg for *god forbid* one of the 30 tv's that were all showing the SAME football games, be changed to the duke game. And of course it was the smallest tv in the place. But anyways, rant aside, I also thought he was behind the line. But I was certain it was the Gin & Tonic.

I planned to watch the game at the ESPN Zone in downtown DC. First warning sign was the firetruck outside. Sure enough the kitchen caught fire and I had to wait outside for thirty minutes before being admitted. I thought at the time it was a bad omen -- and it was -- but for the several hundred Redskins fans who showed up a bit later.

I was assigned my own TV up on the wall (one of 12 small ones on each side of a 20-foot screen). I could see OK but never did figure out the URI players (except Jimmy Baron). When I got in, the score was 10-10 and I said, "Good, the blowout hasn't started yet." And then URI scored a whole bunch of points.

But with 57 seconds left, the guy in the control room announced to one all that he was "switching to the Duke basketball game, where Duke trails Rhode Island by one point with less than a minute left." Then he put the game on the 20 foot screen for the conclusion. There were no complaints, even from the Steelers fans watching the Pittsburgh-SD game. And it turns out there were three other Duke fans in the place.

sagegrouse

Jumbo
11-18-2008, 12:12 AM
You know, I've been thinking about it and, sure, I'd love to see that list.

Enjoy (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219256&postcount=13)

BlueintheFace
11-18-2008, 12:22 AM
Enjoy (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219256&postcount=13)

Oh snap.

Kedsy
11-18-2008, 12:45 AM
A few more candidates, though I am not 100% sure. Would have to look it up: Daniel Ewing, Shelden Williams, I believe played more at the end of their freshman year than in the early games. As for improvement over a career, Marty Clark and Lee Melchionni played very little as freshman but a lot later in their career...

I do think we will see more and more of EWill and Miles as the season moves along...

Daniel Ewing averaged approximately the same number of minutes toward the end of his freshman year as he did in the beginning. Shelden Williams had a handful of single-digit minute games, but they were in the middle of the season. He was playing pretty good minutes in the beginning of his freshman year.

Kedsy
11-18-2008, 12:50 AM
Enjoy (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219256&postcount=13)

Thanks, except that's not the list I wanted. Unlike the poster in that other thread I never said a little-used freshman couldn't become a major player in his later years. As you pointed out to him it happens quite frequently.

What I said was it's been rare that a Duke freshman played only a few minutes in November games and then played big minutes in February. Jim Sumner mentioned Laettner, Brickey, and Carrowell, which are all good examples. I suggested that if we had to go that far back that it probably didn't happen all that much, and I still believe that. I also said if you have a more comprehensive list (of freshmen who played sparingly in November but played a lot in February of the same year) I'd love to see it. And I still would.

Jumbo
11-18-2008, 01:23 AM
Thanks, except that's not the list I wanted. Unlike the poster in that other thread I never said a little-used freshman couldn't become a major player in his later years. As you pointed out to him it happens quite frequently.

What I said was it's been rare that a Duke freshman played only a few minutes in November games and then played big minutes in February. Jim Sumner mentioned Laettner, Brickey, and Carrowell, which are all good examples. I suggested that if we had to go that far back that it probably didn't happen all that much, and I still believe that. I also said if you have a more comprehensive list (of freshmen who played sparingly in November but played a lot in February of the same year) I'd love to see it. And I still would.

Ah, that'll take more time (that I don't have at the moment). From my list, Thomas Hill defnitely fit the bill. Other people already pointed out a bunch of other names.

Also, it's a bit of red herring to suggest that going back more than a decade isn't sufficient. A major reason why we have to do that is the bulk of the teams this decade have been short on scholarship players, due to early entry. So, basically everyone who could play has played right away. The most noteable exception was the 2002-03 team, which was quite deep. That team had a huge freshman class. That team was odd, though, in that the freshmen (except J.J.) saw their minutes fluctuate throughout the season. It wasn't so much of a slow start for all of them as a series of false starts.

Jim3k
11-18-2008, 01:38 AM
I could swear Bucky kept saying "we" when he talked about Duke. I have seen UNC guys do this alot but Dukies rarely slip.

Bucky is a 'we;' he's been one of us since he began coaching freshmen and teaching PE in 1959. He's been one of our head coaches and he's been a special assitant to the University president. His degree is from NCSU, but he bleeds blue and has since Bubas brought him over (except for the few years he coached at West Virginia.)

The announcing is nothing but a sideline since I think he's now retired and getting a Duke pension.

I still remember him sending me for extra laps in PE when I mouthed off over his refereeing. I deserved it and have thought highly of him ever since. :)

Edit: Oooh. Rudy D'Emilio.

ncexnyc
11-18-2008, 02:04 AM
How do you know that "real life, crunchtime game experience" would actually be a "gain?" I've told this story countless times on the board, but it's worth repeating. A team -- not Duke -- once had a freshman who joined a veteran group with high expectations. There was no question he was talented, but he also had trouble picking up the team's system in practice. Regardless, the coach threw him out there right away, against some good teams in tight games. That playing experience didn't help at all. He regressed as a player and lost his confidence. By the end of the season, he was on the scout team in practice.

Giving a guy critical game experience before he's ready can also have a negative effect.

If the experience of one player who failed as a freshman, because he couldn't handle the pressure is what you're basing your arguement on then I suggest you should reconsider your position.

We can look at several other sports for examples. In baseball can you truly evaluate a relief pitchers ability to be a closer unless he actually goes out and performs in that role?

In football, many QB's come out of college with great reps only to fall flat on their face. The biggest thing they talk about is getting used to the speed of the pro game. They can't get that from practice, it's something that is gained from playing actual live games.

In my own real life experience as a Morse Intercept Operator in the Army for nearly 20 years. We were trained on tapes of canned code and we advanced to tapes from live targets. Once we arrived at our permanent duty station after training we sat side saddle with an experienced op working on a real world live target. You just can't get proficient by practice alone, sooner or later you need to do it for real when the pressure is real and something is on the line.

kinghoops
11-18-2008, 04:21 AM
Christian Laettner played six minutes in his first game at Duke, an 80-55 win over Kentucky.

Robert Brickey and Chris Carrawell also played six minutes in their first games as freshmen.

and if my memory serves me correctly, dont i remember a certain number 32 missing a freethrow that would have a tied a very big nonconference game against arizona in the meadow lands his freshman season?? he turned out to be pretty darn clutch if my memory is correct....

people are making way to big a deal on contributions from any freshman only three games into the season. everyone needs to just hold their collective horses and see how this plays out.

i too thought the uri game would be a blowout, but hey, when a team comes into your house and plays like that, all you can do is tip your hat and be glad you won. i was noticing the mentality on some people, a thread titled can we beat ucla? hell we gotta win one game to even get the chance to play ucla, that is if they win their game!

RelativeWays
11-18-2008, 07:48 AM
I feel pretty confident that E Mail will see his regular minutes increase as he becomes more comfortable with the system, he is too athletic to stay on the bench for too long. I'd really like to see Miles get a bit more burn and experience since he is lighter and more mobile than Zoubs. I think he would have played more against URI except for his inexperience, ideally he's the guy you would like under center versus quicker teams.

wilson
11-18-2008, 09:25 AM
I feel pretty confident that E Mail will see his regular minutes increase as he becomes more comfortable with the system, he is too athletic to stay on the bench for too long. I'd really like to see Miles get a bit more burn and experience since he is lighter and more mobile than Zoubs. I think he would have played more against URI except for his inexperience, ideally he's the guy you would like under center versus quicker teams.

I also hope that Williams' minutes will climb, but "E Mail"? Yikes. Worst nickname ever.

Jumbo
11-18-2008, 09:46 AM
If the experience of one player who failed as a freshman, because he couldn't handle the pressure is what you're basing your arguement on then I suggest you should reconsider your position.

Of course not. It's based on years of basketball experience and interacting with players and coaches. That's just one of my favorite stories that reflects this sentiment, so I enjoy telling it.


We can look at several other sports for examples. In baseball can you truly evaluate a relief pitchers ability to be a closer unless he actually goes out and performs in that role?

Nope. But how many teams bring a kd up straight from Triple-A and hand him the ball in the ninth inning? Not many good ones. They get their feet wet in middle relief. Once they are successful, it's easier to move into a closing role. And it's not the same experience, because baseball is essentially an individual sport. A pitcher, when you boil it down, just needs to learn how to pitch. It doesn't matter who is on the field behind him. A basketball player, meanwhile, doesn't just need to improve his individual skills. He needs to adapt to the players around him and learn the system in which he's being asked to play. That takes some time. Not everyone is ready from Day 1.


In football, many QB's come out of college with great reps only to fall flat on their face. The biggest thing they talk about is getting used to the speed of the pro game. They can't get that from practice, it's something that is gained from playing actual live games.

You're arguing two different things. Yes, there is nothing that exactly simulates the speed of live games. Obviously, you don't know anything about a QB until he sets foot under center. But, again, that doesn't mean you can't do things to prepare a QB for that experience. That's why most QBs don't start right away. Every now and then you get someone like Matt Ryan, who seems to grasp the role right away. But most QBs struggle at the start. And a lot of guys have been helped by a year or two of film studying, watching from the sidelines, studying under a veteran. The idea is to put the QB in the optimal position to begin his career. So, just as you argue that not every QB should start the first game of the season, why should a freshman play important minutes in the first close basketball game of the season?


In my own real life experience as a Morse Intercept Operator in the Army for nearly 20 years. We were trained on tapes of canned code and we advanced to tapes from live targets. Once we arrived at our permanent duty station after training we sat side saddle with an experienced op working on a real world live target. You just can't get proficient by practice alone, sooner or later you need to do it for real when the pressure is real and something is on the line.

Again, we don't disagree about the fact that practice is not identical to game (or real-life) situations. But what if you were awful when you trained on the tapes? What if you were making mistakes left and right? Should the Army have sent you out inot the field? Or take a pilot? If he's constantly screwing up in the flight simulator, are you going to put him in the cockpit of a real jet? Of course not.

gw67
11-18-2008, 10:38 AM
Jumbo – I enjoy reading your post-game interactions with various posters (Boy, has the interest in post-game comments ramped up in recent years – over 200 posts and 13,500 views). I haven’t seen the team play this year so I haven’t seen any of the freshmen play. IMO, it is our nature as fans to want to see the freshmen get some playing time because there appears to be all this potential and we don’t want to consider any downside such as lack of experience or quality players in front of them. Assuming Williams is everything that some predict, whose minutes do you think that he will take? Smith, Scheyer, Henderson and Paulus are experienced, quality players and Pocius is also in the mix (as well as McClure at wing). Unless there are injuries, it just doesn’t seem to me that are enough minutes to be able to play Williams as much as some want.

gw67

Jumbo
11-18-2008, 11:42 AM
Jumbo – I enjoy reading your post-game interactions with various posters (Boy, has the interest in post-game comments ramped up in recent years – over 200 posts and 13,500 views). I haven’t seen the team play this year so I haven’t seen any of the freshmen play. IMO, it is our nature as fans to want to see the freshmen get some playing time because there appears to be all this potential and we don’t want to consider any downside such as lack of experience or quality players in front of them. Assuming Williams is everything that some predict, whose minutes do you think that he will take? Smith, Scheyer, Henderson and Paulus are experienced, quality players and Pocius is also in the mix (as well as McClure at wing). Unless there are injuries, it just doesn’t seem to me that are enough minutes to be able to play Williams as much as some want.

gw67

Well, define "as much as we want." Before the year, I basically thought that Scheyer and Henderson would each play 30-plus minutes in close games, that Smith and Paulus would split time at the point and share some time in the backcourt as well, and there would be room for a fifth player to get about 10 minutes a game against good teams as a fifth perimeter player. (Maybe 15 against some teams.) I figured Williams would be best suited for that role, but that Pocius would put up a fight. What I didn't anticipate was McClure getting minutes at the 3.

I think K has already sewed the seeds for McClure being a situational player (read some of his comments about Dave), so I think as Elliot improves, that's the best chance for him to get time.

ncexnyc
11-18-2008, 11:51 AM
I respect Jumbo's view on the matter of how to break a new player in. His posts are always well written and he takes the time to think things through.

We can't always agree and if we did the board would be rather boring.

Until the next time, Go Blue Devils.

Jumbo
11-18-2008, 12:01 PM
I respect Jumbo's view on the matter of how to break a new player in. His posts are always well written and he takes the time to think things through.

We can't always agree and if we did the board would be rather boring.

Until the next time, Go Blue Devils.

Good stuff. Thanks.

COYS
11-18-2008, 12:16 PM
Unless there are injuries, it just doesn’t seem to me that are enough minutes to be able to play Williams as much as some want.

I like seeing the freshmen play, too, but honestly, I'd rather see our veterans establish themselves. Singler and Scheyer certainly have done that. Nolan and Greg need time to become comfortable with their new roles. Gerald is also still trying to figure out exactly how to establish himself. Freshmen need crunch time experience, but our veterans also have to become comfortable with their roles. I think Scheyer and Singler rising to occasion like they did against RIU is great and, if anything, our frosh and the entire team can learn from it. Also, I would say that the improved play of Thomas is more of a boon than anything else. If we can get him to grab a few more boards, I'll take 10 and 5 from Thomas any day of the week.

Clipsfan
11-18-2008, 03:11 PM
Although his right foot was clearly over the line when he hit that three to put URI up 74-67. I was stunned that wasn't reviewed by the refs.

Thanks for attaching a screen shot, that is the the 3-point shot I was referring to earlier. I was going to get really annoyed if that one point made the difference.

asbcheeks
11-18-2008, 05:39 PM
But how many teams bring a kd up straight from Triple-A and hand him the ball in the ninth inning? Not many good ones.

David Price, LHP, Tampa Bay Rays

RelativeWays
11-18-2008, 07:51 PM
I also hope that Williams' minutes will climb, but "E Mail"? Yikes. Worst nickname ever.

I have no idea who coined the nickname but its been used here since earlier this year fairly often. Yea, its not that great, but shorter than "Williams" and you don't have to worry about DBR attacking if you spell his first name Eliot, Elliott, Elliot, Eliott or ELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOO OTT.

wilson
11-18-2008, 07:58 PM
I have no idea who coined the nickname but its been used here since earlier this year fairly often. Yea, its not that great, but shorter than "Williams" and you don't have to worry about DBR attacking if you spell his first name Eliot, Elliott, Elliot, Eliott or ELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOO OTT.

I agree that it's better than the listed alternatives except maybe the E.T. reference (that is what you mean with the last one, isn't it?)...I think the Crazies could actually do something good with that one if they managed to pull it off right.
But regardless...I really think we can collectively do better than "E Mail." For whatever reason, it just strikes me as a spectacularly dumb nickname.

Acymetric
11-18-2008, 08:01 PM
I have no idea who coined the nickname but its been used here since earlier this year fairly often. Yea, its not that great, but shorter than "Williams" and you don't have to worry about DBR attacking if you spell his first name Eliot, Elliott, Elliot, Eliott or ELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOO OTT.

It wasn't anyone on this board, or any board for that matter. As far as I know, that's been his nickname the entire time we've been recruiting him and it either comes from himself, his family, his friends/teammates, or his coach. I agree its not a great nickname, but personally I've never liked any nicknames for players. I don't mind G too much because it sounds quite a bit cooler than Gerald and rolls of the tongue better than Henderson. Most nicknames are just silly though.

Indoor66
11-18-2008, 08:07 PM
Most nicknames are just silly though.

Except:

1. Hansblahblah
2. Hanstravel

bigj4194
11-18-2008, 08:25 PM
But regardless...I really think we can collectively do better than "E Mail." For whatever reason, it just strikes me as a spectacularly dumb nickname.

I agree that there could be a better name, however this was his nickname in HS...and a lot of people call him that...so i guess here we have to go with the flow :D

throatybeard
11-18-2008, 09:01 PM
Except:

1. Hansblahblah
2. Hanstravel

No, those are amazingly unfunny, and demonstrate the collective, powerful lameness of Duke fans. They've been embarrassing for 3 years and they will continue to be so this year. We should be ashamed.

ACCBBallFan
11-18-2008, 10:14 PM
Why do pewople keep viewing it as Miles getting PT instead of Zoubek. In three games, Zoubs has averaged 11 min per game and Miles 10. To compete vs. bigger teams, they both need to get more minutes, not either one at the expense of the other.

As Duke faces less small teams, I would expect Lance (20) and Dave (14) to forego some minutes to the two legitimate bigs, with perhaps Miles and Z instread totalling around that same 34 Lance/Dave have, and Lance/Dave totalling 21 that Z/Miles have.

It's just that so far the teams Duke has faced have not been as big as can be expected in ACC play with not only Hansbrough, but McCauley/Costner, Jeff Allen, McFarland, Josh Southern, Trevor Booker/Sykes, Alabi, Peacock, Graham/Collins/McGowan, the Ark transfer, and Sorroye, so every ACC team has a starter taller and/or heavier than Lance or Dave, as do UCLA, Purude and a few other OOC teams.

3 games do not a trend for the season make.

Jim3k
11-18-2008, 11:52 PM
I also hope that Williams' minutes will climb, but "E Mail"? Yikes. Worst nickname ever.

In fact, the nickname is taken. Emil Brown, major league outfielder, late of the A's and Royals is called E-Mail. At least his first name leads the way. Not true of of Williams.

I agree. Let's find him another name.

Jumbo
11-19-2008, 01:27 AM
David Price, LHP, Tampa Bay Rays

Touche! ;)

dcarp23
11-19-2008, 08:37 AM
Touche! ;)

But even with that example, Jumbos point still holds. David Price's true value is that he is a big time starting pitcher, but for a number of reasons the Rays didn't want to force him into that role just yet.

biggame
03-17-2018, 05:40 PM
Did I miss something? Why did Alex not play? Was he able to play? Thanks

rsvman
03-17-2018, 05:42 PM
Did I miss something? Why did Alex not play? Was he able to play? Thanks

You missed something. He played.

Furniture
03-17-2018, 05:42 PM
Oooooooooooooooooooolllllllllllldddddddddddddddddd ddddd!

gotoguy
03-17-2018, 05:46 PM
looking for Jumbo...