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TwoDukeTattoos
11-13-2008, 11:30 AM
Last week, I was listening to Bomani Jones on 850 The Buzz. I don't partiularly agree with everything he has to say, but when I heard him say that Duke's brand is crumbling, I felt compelled to bouce this off the forum members. So, IS Duke's brand crumbling? Will the small, historical Cameron Indoor eventually hurt us in regards to recruiting? Is there a reason why we're having a difficult time landing back-to-the-basket big men? If Johnny ever takes over Duke, will he be able to recruit and coach at the highest level? Is our lack of highest-level success over the past few years actually the beginning of a slow downward trend that is simply being buffered by the legacy of K?

What are your thoughts, fellow Devils? Comfort me and please tell me it ain't so!

ncexnyc
11-13-2008, 11:45 AM
It's unfortunate, but in today's society the media loves to build someone or something up, only turn right around and relish in tearing it down.

According to the media we haven't been to the Final Four in eons. We've had solid seasons most programs would die for, but because it's Duke nothing less than a Final Four run seems to be acceptable.

Our society is one of instant gratification and many of the young prospects want to go where they are Mr Big. and they can pad their resume. Could Coach K land that type of player? Sure he could, but he won't because that isn't what Duke basketball is about.

I can live with our image crumbling, maybe then there wouldn't be so many Duke haters who claim we receive an unfair advantage due to all our media coverage. Let ESPN rave about some other program.

VaDukie
11-13-2008, 11:48 AM
In a word, No.

SMO
11-13-2008, 11:48 AM
Last week, I was listening to Bomani Jones on 850 The Buzz. I don't partiularly agree with everything he has to say, but when I heard him say that Duke's brand is crumbling, I felt compelled to bouce this off the forum members. So, IS Duke's brand crumbling? Will the small, historical Cameron Indoor eventually hurt us in regards to recruiting? Is there a reason why we're having a difficult time landing back-to-the-basket big men? If Johnny ever takes over Duke, will he be able to recruit and coach at the highest level? Is our lack of highest-level success over the past few years actually the beginning of a slow downward trend that is simply being buffered by the legacy of K?

What are your thoughts, fellow Devils? Comfort me and please tell me it ain't so!

Jones is dead on! Duke's brand is crumbling solely because he was recently employed as an adjunct professor there.

He's a clown.

footballfan2
11-13-2008, 11:55 AM
winning will take care of itself.

roywhite
11-13-2008, 11:56 AM
In a word, No.

Agree. For starters:

1. Coach K and his gold medal winning Olympic achievement---a brand enhancer for sure; lots of publicity, internationally even, tons of respect from the NBA crowd, and probably made him a better coach.

2. Recruiting is going very well, despite the loss of Boynton. 2010 is shaping up as a monster year.

3. This 2008/09 team is very good, better than last year's, and a major threat to go to the Final Four (at least). This year's UNC/Duke matchups will be hugely hyped (and very competitive). UNC ascension does not mean Duke's decline.

rockymtn devil
11-13-2008, 12:23 PM
Agree. For starters:

1. Coach K and his gold medal winning Olympic achievement---a brand enhancer for sure; lots of publicity, internationally even, tons of respect from the NBA crowd, and probably made him a better coach.

2. Recruiting is going very well, despite the loss of Boynton. 2010 is shaping up as a monster year.

3. This 2008/09 team is very good, better than last year's, and a major threat to go to the Final Four (at least). This year's UNC/Duke matchups will be hugely hyped (and very competitive). UNC ascension does not mean Duke's decline.

Well said. A couple of things I'll add:

1. Jones is in the business of hyperbole and this is nothing more than an example of that. I don't blame him--that's the nature of being a radio sports host. Adding to that is the fact that, in his broadcast market, few things play as well as trashing Duke. For him, it's a good business model and he'll exploit it as best he can.

2. I am of the opinion that Duke's recent struggles (using that term very loosely) are the result of a single recruit that didn't pan out. Duke's "brand" is entirely too strong to be harmed in the long run by a single circumstance.

3. roywhite noted this, but it deserves repeating: Duke has a very good team this season. We present matchup problems across the board and, hopefully, have the depth this season to run the offense effectively down the stretch.

Oh, and Cameron does not need to be expanded.

lifelongdevil
11-13-2008, 12:32 PM
I hate to say it but I agree.

I don't think anyone is at fault, there are simply cycles in a program. Look at the 95-97 seasons, between periods of massive success(yes K's health problem was an issue, but the talent generally wasn't there). That said we returned to dominance in 1999-2005. I say I agree that the brand is diminishing, not crumbling. In the early part of this decade, Duke was THE team, now we are just in a group of the elite. I think the creation of a required year in college has hurt our talent level in comparison to many of these other schools, simply because a premier academic institution is not at the forefront of many such recruits minds.

johnb
11-13-2008, 12:34 PM
Since '91, we've been the biggest show in ncaa basketball. For the past few years, we haven't won the close tournament games and haven't made it to the final four. I think it's reasonable to make a case that we aren't invulnerable, but, of course, we weren't invulnerable back then either--one of the reasons that some of our games are classics is that we won games that we could easily have lost (and I try to block out a few games where we really should have won). the reality is that we are a top 5 program (and no one is #1), and that's great...

dukelifer
11-13-2008, 12:52 PM
Last week, I was listening to Bomani Jones on 850 The Buzz. I don't partiularly agree with everything he has to say, but when I heard him say that Duke's brand is crumbling, I felt compelled to bouce this off the forum members. So, IS Duke's brand crumbling? Will the small, historical Cameron Indoor eventually hurt us in regards to recruiting? Is there a reason why we're having a difficult time landing back-to-the-basket big men? If Johnny ever takes over Duke, will he be able to recruit and coach at the highest level? Is our lack of highest-level success over the past few years actually the beginning of a slow downward trend that is simply being buffered by the legacy of K?

What are your thoughts, fellow Devils? Comfort me and please tell me it ain't so!

If this comment had come from someone objective- perhaps it is worth discussion- but Jones is an admitted Duke Hater with a capital H. He likes to stir things up. Duke remains an elite program. When K leaves Duke will have its challenges as did UNC when Dean Smith left. UNC went through a very down period very recently and have managed to get themselves righted once again.

Devilsfan
11-13-2008, 12:58 PM
UNC's down turn was strickly due to incompetance in coaching and the recruits knew it.
Duke basketball is here to stay and like rock and roll, it will go down in history.

mo.st.dukie
11-13-2008, 01:11 PM
I think the main reason why people say things like this is because of the poor tournament play throughout this decade. Duke's only been past the Sweet 16 once since 2001. When talking about the blue bloods of college basketball it's all about tournament play. It was good for Tennessee to have such a successful regular season but you don't hear much bashing about them getting ousted in the Sweet 16, it was very similar to our 05-06 season, but that's the difference between Duke and a place like Tennessee. Success breeds success, look at Georgetown, they went five years without getting to the tournament and now they're able to reel in top recruits like Greg Monroe because of some recent success and dominant players, same goes for UCLA. If we make a FF run this year alot of things will be put to rest nobody will care that we struggled in the tournament in years past, nobody cares that Kansas got beat in the 1st round two years in a row a few years back and nobody cares that Florida couldn't make it past the second round between 2000 and 2006 even with alot of talent. I think success this year may help us to land a certain elite player in the 09 class and to fill out the rest of our 10 class.

houstondukie
11-13-2008, 01:28 PM
A win over UCLA in MSG will shut-up a lot of critics.

hc5duke
11-13-2008, 01:58 PM
I was getting my flame-war gear on for this thread, then I realized you said "brand" not "band" :)

roywhite
11-13-2008, 02:04 PM
I was getting my flame-war gear on for this thread, then I realized you said "brand" not "band" :)

Nor has Elton sustained further injury. :)

yancem
11-13-2008, 07:34 PM
I think the word "crumbling" is a bad choice of words. For the brand to be crumbling, to me, the foundation on which the program was built would have to be severely weakened. Since K is the foundation on which the program was built and he is no less of a coach now (as evidenced by the gold metal this summer) than he was a half decade ago then the foundation is fine.

I would however, agree that the programs band or image has been slightly tarnished over the past few years. We have failed to get past the opening weekend of the tournament the past 2 years or get past the second weekend since '04. Couple that with the back to back nc's by Florida, the re-emergence of UNC as a power, and UCLA's run of F4's and Duke is no longer the sexy pick to reign the college basketball world.

The difference to me between a program's brand crumbling and a program's brand tarnished, is a crumbling brand is sinking fast and has little chance of recovering in the short term. UCLA was a brand that crumbled after Wooden retired. Kentucky was a brand that crumbled after they were cited for ncaa violations. Both eventually returned to the top of college basketball but it took changes in coaches and several years of mediocrity.

A tarnished brand however, can return to the top with the right recruit or a lucky bounce. Duke was a top 5 team for the majority of the year last year. If Singler didn't wear down, Henderson hurt his wrist or Nelson catch the flu at tourney time, then Duke had a good chance of making the great 8 or possibly the F4. With 5 of our top 6 players returning and the fortuitous signing of Plumlee, Duke is poised to to make a strong run this year and next year Duke could even be stronger.

If Duke flames out this year and next year, then maybe one can start the discussion of whether or not Duke's brand is crumbling but until then I'm not too concerned.

kinghoops
11-13-2008, 07:58 PM
lots of great points in this thread, so i will add my opinion.
i do agree, crumbling is not the right word. tarnished comes to mind more than any other word. and i dont mean tarnished as in the program itself, i think more in terms of on the court as a mental edge.

the number that really caught my eye, in the si preview, duke has a winning percentage of .541 after jan 31st the past three seasons. as we all know, no matter your record in nov,dec,jan, teams are judged by what they do in feb and march, and as we all know, our teams have worn down in each the past few seasons. a perfect example, last year, the first carolina game, duke played what i think was by far their best game of the year, went to 22 and 1 and finished the season 6 and 5 from that point.

march is the time when teams are supposed to reach their peak and hopefully with the depth and no key injuries, duke will peak in march, make a strong tournament run and the "crumbling" factor will be a distant memory

sagegrouse
11-13-2008, 09:05 PM
No. Elton is having a great year in Philly.

sagegrouse

DukeDevilDeb
11-13-2008, 09:12 PM
Last week, I was listening to Bomani Jones on 850 The Buzz. I don't partiularly agree with everything he has to say, but when I heard him say that Duke's brand is crumbling, I felt compelled to bouce this off the forum members. So, IS Duke's brand crumbling? Will the small, historical Cameron Indoor eventually hurt us in regards to recruiting? Is there a reason why we're having a difficult time landing back-to-the-basket big men? If Johnny ever takes over Duke, will he be able to recruit and coach at the highest level? Is our lack of highest-level success over the past few years actually the beginning of a slow downward trend that is simply being buffered by the legacy of K?

What are your thoughts, fellow Devils? Comfort me and please tell me it ain't so!

The only person who would make this statement less credible than Bomani Jones is Gregg Doyel! Both of them are Duke Despisers! Give me a break... the man lacks any objectivity... In fact, I'm kind of hoping that both Jones and Doyel will crumble! :D

miramar
11-13-2008, 09:13 PM
One cause of Duke's excellence for a number of years was that most recruits panned out (Burgess was one exception), plus many of them stayed for three or four years. But then we had some small recruiting classes (Deng's one-year, one-person class, for example), and others that had some problems on the way (such as this year's senior class, which lost three players pretty quickly). Fortunately, things are really looking up. Just think of the guys who are not starting: Smith, Pocius, Williams, Plumlee, Thomas, Czyz. Those guys would make a pretty good starting five and sixth man.

Kedsy
11-13-2008, 09:42 PM
No. Elton is having a great year in Philly.

Actually, he's been struggling a bit. In the last few games he's started to show signs of life, though, and we (in Phila) have high hopes that his struggles are over.

davekay1971
11-14-2008, 10:04 AM
Jones is Duke bashing, which is nothing new for him. Hard to say that Duke's foundation is crumbling when we've got a top 5 team with a load of youth that's likely to be better next year than this year, we just landed a top 5 recuiting class for next year, and we're in the mix for another top 5 class for the year after next. Jones should probably try to stick to making points that are at least defensible. Saying that our brand is crumbling just makes him sound bitter and ignorant.

SupaDave
11-14-2008, 10:18 AM
This thread actually makes me wonder something else - what exactly is Duke's "brand"?

I have some troubles with this b/c while I love the basketball program dearly, when I think of Duke I think of going to Law School and for the school being partly responsible for Durham winning a "City of Medicine" award.

I don't think any team that has made the NCAA tourney upteen million times in a row and starts the pre-season ranked in the top 10 every year for like the last upteen years can be considered crumbling.

Of course we've missed on recruits and there are MANY reasons for that including parity, high school to pros, whether the kid is a good fit, if he wants a Duke education, and the fact that we will hardly ever sign more than 5 kids in a class. There's just WAY more info on who we lose now also. Thankfully there's also info after some of the kids don't turn out as expected.

As recently as JJ Redick I wasn't use to seeing a Duke player play until he put on a Duke jersey. I most certainly had only remotely heard of Trajan Langdon. But once they had Duke on their jerseys - I knew who they were most certainly.

We've got 14 guys in the NBA right now. The Coaching STAFF just helped achieve Olympic gold. We've got a new practice facility. And Durham is still a quaint little town.

Maybe we were hurt by Dickie V not being around so much last year - he'll be back this year to let folks know. :)

wilko
11-14-2008, 10:33 AM
Bo is funny that way.
I stream his show when I can (work wise) and shoot him emails from time to time.
I think I heard the show the same day you did (TDT), cuz he and I ping-ponged several exchanges during the show.

To be truthful, Im not sure where Duke-hating merges with his desire to stir the pot and provide entertaining radio fodder. I dont know whats fact and fiction on this point.

He has said some things to me in an email that make me wonder if its as bad as whats generally assumed from him. He DOES like to stir the pot and solidly appeal to larger fanbases. I'm not sure how much he actually "hates" us, but its a fair bet we arent his favorite ACC school.

-

My personal uninformed opinion about the "Duke crumble"...

I this the LaCrosse scandle turned some folks off. Where ther is smoke there is fire. Thats starting to fade...

I think the Olympics had a short term negative impact in terms of recruiting for the here and now.... BUT I also believe it will pay bigger dividends in the future. A worthwhile calculated risk that I would have taken.

I think these things help explain some recruiting misses and they arent DIRECT faults of the coaching staff.
Sure you could argue that the coaching staff didnt HAVE to go to China, that it was a choice.. but... c'mon. Thats not the kind of thing you say no to.

Edouble
11-14-2008, 10:34 AM
No, I've heard that Elton is slicing, as he prefers muenster to feta. ;)

KenTankerous
11-14-2008, 10:51 AM
Crumbling? PAAALLEASE!

As a Kentucky fan (in love with a Dukie) let me say you folks don't know from crumbling.

Gardner-frigging-Webb.

Enjoy the success that Coach K and your team are showering on you. It may not last forever.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-14-2008, 11:16 AM
Crumbling? PAAALLEASE!

As a Kentucky fan (in love with a Dukie) let me say you folks don't know from crumbling.

Gardner-frigging-Webb.

Enjoy the success that Coach K and your team are showering on you. It may not last forever.

Good to see you're posting again, KenTankerous. You are right on the money here. This topic seems to fill some sort of vacuum.

throatybeard
11-14-2008, 11:27 AM
Crumbling? PAAALLEASE!

As a Kentucky fan (in love with a Dukie) let me say you folks don't know from crumbling.

Gardner-frigging-Webb.

Enjoy the success that Coach K and your team are showering on you. It may not last forever.

Or let us consider Indiana. There's a grease fire.