Dawkins recruiting problems article

[ricks68]

While the link on the front page is (was) incorrect, I was able to find the article. Note in the article and in the comments that they are saying that JD is not used to recruiting ballers that have to meet the rigid academic standards of Stanford. What do they think Duke is, chopped liver?:(

ricks

[Bob Green]

The front page link did not work for me either. Here is a good link:

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2008/11/04/stanford-basketball-recruiting-its-not-going-well-but-dawkins-isnt-worried/

[BD80]

... JD is not used to recruiting ballers that have to meet the rigid academic standards of Stanford. What do they think Duke is, chopped liver?:(


This quote still stings:


But Stanford is not Duke. Its admissions standards are higher and recruiting pool is much, much smaller.

Not sure it is true. But is this how we sound when we talk about Duke's academic standards?

[Ignatius07]

If that's true, it's a problem completely self-imposed. The difference in difficulty for non-recruited students applying to Stanford and Duke is clearly not great. It may be easier for a basketball player to get into Duke then Stanford because Duke's admissions department lowers its standards more than Stanford does. Then again, it may be that this is just a (very convenient) excuse for Stanford.

[Indoor66]

Not sure it is true. But is this how we sound when we talk about Duke's academic standards?

Yes, it is.

[studdlee10]

Stanford DOES have higher academic standards for basketball recruits than Duke does. That said, there is really no good reason to use that as an excuse. There are plenty of players at schools like Duke, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, etc...that could easily get into Stanford (See Zoubek, Greg Monroe, etc), it's just that Stanford can't land these guys.

Besides, Stanford found a way to get the Lopez twins into school. Not saying they had bad grades or are bad kids, but if you have ever heard them talk.....

[formerdukeathlete]

Stanford DOES have higher academic standards for basketball recruits than Duke does. That said, there is really no good reason to use that as an excuse. There are plenty of players at schools like Duke, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, etc...that could easily get into Stanford (See Zoubek, Greg Monroe, etc), it's just that Stanford can't land these guys.

Besides, Stanford found a way to get the Lopez twins into school. Not saying they had bad grades or are bad kids, but if you have ever heard them talk.....

I would go further, 09 recruits Plumlee and Kelly seem well Stanford-qualified. On Duke's current roster, my take is that easily more than half our current roster is also Stanford-qualified.

The comment in the linked article about difficulty in admissions was made by the author / writer and not attributed to JD, that Stanford's standards are higher than Duke's. While, by all accounts I think this may be true, I would suggest the writer's comments are a bit regionally chauvinistic, and partly a function of the last published data for Duke when Duke's team average was just below 1000 math and verbal (1997), and Stanford's was 1100 something.

I would also hazard to say that our current b-ball team might have as high or higher average than Stanford's current roster. Zoubek's 1500s help. Shoots holes in that JD is too hindered.

The Train might comment if he reads this thread. By all accounts Stanford has higher requirements than Duke in Football. But, when you talk golf, tennis, non-revs, I bet requirements are quite similar.

[Jeffrey]

partly a function of the last published data for Duke when Duke's team average was just below 1000 math and verbal (1997),

Hi,

I did not realize it was that low. I shouldn't be surprised given K's power. JD would certainly not have that power (IMO, power is earned) at this point.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

[TheTrain]

The Train might comment if he reads this thread. By all accounts Stanford has higher requirements than Duke in Football. But, when you talk golf, tennis, non-revs, I bet requirements are quite similar.

I can't speak for non revenue sports, but insofar as football, Stanford's admissions process is more stringent. That said, the football program does not use it as an excuse, but instead use it to their advantage.....that is why they currently have a top-15 recruiting class in football with several big names ready to climb on board once admssions clears them. Stanford is aided by the fact that outstanding talent evaluators under the Harbaugh regime (something that could not be said when Walt Harris and Buddy Teevens were in charge).

[3rd Dukie]

While the link on the front page is (was) incorrect, I was able to find the article. Note in the article and in the comments that they are saying that JD is not used to recruiting ballers that have to meet the rigid academic standards of Stanford. What do they think Duke is, chopped liver?:(

ricks

Having lived practically next door to Stanford before my recent move, I can tell you that, yes, they do think that.

[gotham devil]

I can't speak for non revenue sports, but insofar as football, Stanford's admissions process is more stringent. That said, the football program does not use it as an excuse, but instead use it to their advantage.....that is why they currently have a top-15 recruiting class in football with several big names ready to climb on board once admssions clears them. Stanford is aided by the fact that outstanding talent evaluators under the Harbaugh regime (something that could not be said when Walt Harris and Buddy Teevens were in charge).
One would think that Walt Harris and Teevens, who has since gone on to Dartmouth, would be able to cull through top 300 player recruiting lists put out by the services, look for and target those with academic credentials that would be acceptable, and send out their assistants to preach the word of Stanford.

Whether it says something about football players, the California educational system, or Stanford's athletic/academic standards, Bill Walsh had claimed that he could only recruit three out of the top 100 players in California. From afar, one would think Michigan alumnus Harbaugh has found a way around the system, has benefited from an unusually bright crop of football recruits in 2009, or has marketed himself and the school much better.



On the Lopez twins, they both had legacy. Their mother was an athletic admit as well-a swimmer.


On Dawkins, he never had the reputation of either being even a good recruiter or enjoying the process, rather his strength was purported to be as a teacher. Under the three out/one in policy, Coach Dawkins was very often the "one in"...with Coaches Collins and Wojciechowski doing the brunt of the work. For the sake of his career, I had hoped he would surround himself with excellent recruiters.

He's missed on plenty of recruits thus far [not exactly to Oxford and Cambridge]: Darius Morris (Michigan), Tim Frazier (Penn St.), Tyler Haws (BYU), Matt Vogrich (Michigan), Marshall Henderson (Utah), Brendan Lane (UCLA), and Colin Reddick (Furman).

[miramar]

I remember reading somewhere that Duke's average SAT scores in basketball (back when there were two tests rather than three) were 1000 and Stanford's 1100, so while they are higher they're not exactly Caltech in this area.

About the chopped liver comment: I do alumni interviews and a while back they sent us a link that indicated that when students have to choose between Duke and the top five (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, and MIT), only 15% choose Duke. When students choose between Duke and the rest of the second five (Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth, and Brown) then it's 40-60%, so we are in the middle of the pack. But between Duke and the third five (if I recall correctly Cornell, Georgetown, Wash U, etc.) then something like 70-85% choose Duke. So the differences are there, although we're not exactly chopped liver. More like a fine paté.

[Bluedog]

I remember reading somewhere that Duke's average SAT scores in basketball (back when there were two tests rather than three) were 1000 and Stanford's 1100, so while they are higher they're not exactly Caltech in this area.

About the chopped liver comment: I do alumni interviews and a while back they sent us a link that indicated that when students have to choose between Duke and the top five (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, and MIT), only 15% choose Duke. When students choose between Duke and the rest of the second five (Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth, and Brown) then it's 40-60%, so we are in the middle of the pack. But between Duke and the third five (if I recall correctly Cornell, Georgetown, Wash U, etc.) then something like 70-85% choose Duke. So the differences are there, although we're not exactly chopped liver. More like a fine paté.

http://www.dukemagazine.duke.edu/dukemag/issues/010206/crop2.html


Duke is successful in wooing to campus only about 15 percent of those admitted students who are also accepted to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, or Stanford. Against the next group--Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, and Penn--Duke does better, enrolling about 50 percent. In recruiting battles against the third five--Georgetown, Chicago, Washington University, Northwestern, and Cornell--Duke is successful about 80 percent of the time.

[miramar]

Good catch, Bluedog.

Thinking back, I realized that I was combining the information in the article above with something similar from the Chronicle from 2006:

http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/09/04/News/Duke-Still.Step.Below.Top.Schools-2255803.shtml

Both articles mention that Duke only gets 15% vs. the big five, but then provides a bit more detail:

"Yet by many measures, Duke ranks on par with the rest of the Ivy League-in particular, Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth and Penn.

During the last two years, Guttentag said data indicates that between 40 and 60 percent of students accepted to Duke and one of the second group of competing schools chose Duke.

Duke enrolls between 75 and 90 percent of cross-admitted students from the third group of top competitors, which includes Cornell, Northwestern and Georgetown."