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hondoheel
01-02-2008, 01:44 AM
It's CJ Leslie, his teammate, who is committed to State.

sandinmyshoes
01-02-2008, 05:50 AM
That was a strange flub, since I've heard that Duke is showing some interest in Wall. Coach Dawkins seems to especially like his potential.

CMS2478
01-02-2008, 09:16 AM
That was a strange flub, since I've heard that Duke is showing some interest in Wall. Coach Dawkins seems to especially like his potential.

I attented the Glaxo Tournament over the break at Broughton High School where I saw Wall play and Dawkins was there every night. At least one of the nights Roy was there to see Larry Drew and Sidney Lowe was there to see C.J. Leslie. After watching Wall play there is no doubt that he has talent, but I don't know if he is Duke material. When I say that I don't mean basketball material. Coach K is very picky about the guys he recruits and I don't really see Wall fitting in the Duke system. He is very flashy and show boaty and he was probably the best player there but he let everyone know it. I also noticed several times where he would call for a lob and not get it or one of his teammates would shoot and he would get upset and begin pouting and walking toward the defensive end of the court. I would guess that Dawkins noticed the same thing, I guess it is just a question of whether they think this is something that can be changed or not. I was sitting beside a Division 1-AA coach who said he wouldn't be surprised if Wall ends up at State??? Don't know how reliable that is, his guess could be as good as anybody's. :confused: The kid I was really impressed with is Reggie Bullock from Kinston High School. He is around 6'5-6'6, a sophomore, and is as smooth as they come. He hit several three's in the first two games and has very good athleticism. He got injured the third day and was unable to play. Dawkins did hang around for his games and I hope he took note.

Slackerb
01-02-2008, 10:13 AM
Yeah, wondering about this myself. Wall lists State on his interest, but it's not a high interest.

Of course, if they could land him, it'd be huge, for obvious reasons. If I remember correctly he's the #1 PG in the class.

CMS2478
01-02-2008, 10:21 AM
Yeah, wondering about this myself. Wall lists State on his interest, but it's not a high interest.

Of course, if they could land him, it'd be huge, for obvious reasons. If I remember correctly he's the #1 PG in the class.

Well, Carolina and Duke are pretty much set at that position so I guess State is his best chance for PT.

Carlos
01-02-2008, 10:47 AM
Since John Wall won't be on anyone's campus until the fall of 2009 I don't think you can say that Duke is "set" at that position. Nolan will be a junior that season and could perhaps be gone at the end of the year.

A better question would be how recruiting Wall would impact things with Kenny Boynton, a stud combo guard in the same class.

Assuming nobody left early you would be looking at a backcourt in two years that had Henderson & Scheyer as seniors, Smith as a junior, and Elliot Williams as a sophomore. In the HS class of 2009, in addition to Wall and Boynton, Duke is also looking at Leslie McDonald. Henderson, Williams, and McDonald are all guys who could play either wing (2G, SF) slot. Scheyer is also best suited at either wing spot and could also play backup PG minutes. Boynton is a SG/PG in the mold of Jason Williams and Wall is a PG/SG.

If you want to really get confused, add into the mix that Boynton is close friends and plays on the same AAU team with Brandon Knight, the #1 recruit in the class of 2010. He's also a PG and SG.

The good news is that if Duke gets one of those point guards from the 2009 class they would have an exceptional backcourt, even if Henderson left early as most think he will.

CMS2478
01-02-2008, 10:52 AM
Since John Wall won't be on anyone's campus until the fall of 2009 I don't think you can say that Duke is "set" at that position. Nolan will be a junior that season and could perhaps be gone at the end of the year.

A better question would be how recruiting Wall would impact things with Kenny Boynton, a stud combo guard in the same class.

Assuming nobody left early you would be looking at a backcourt in two years that had Henderson & Scheyer as seniors, Smith as a junior, and Elliot Williams as a sophomore. In the HS class of 2009, in addition to Wall and Boynton, Duke is also looking at Leslie McDonald. Henderson, Williams, and McDonald are all guys who could play either wing (2G, SF) slot. Scheyer is also best suited at either wing spot and could also play backup PG minutes. Boynton is a SG/PG in the mold of Jason Williams and Wall is a PG/SG.

If you want to really get confused, add into the mix that Boynton is close friends and plays on the same AAU team with Brandon Knight, the #1 recruit in the class of 2010. He's also a PG and SG.

The good news is that if Duke gets one of those point guards from the 2009 class they would have an exceptional backcourt, even if Henderson left early as most think he will.

I had a momentary "brain fart" and forgot Wall is only a Jr.........My bad and I ask forgivness from the DBR board gods.

Olympic Fan
01-02-2008, 10:54 AM
No inside knowledge or anything, but I'd be very surprised if Duke ends up pursuing John Wall, especially if he stays at Word of God Academy.

It has nothing to do with his basketball ability.

How can I say this ... it's no coincidence that Duke has not been involved with any of the talented kids who have played at Durham's Mt. Zion Christian Academy in recent years ... and if anything Raleigh's Word of God is even further from the educational mainstream than MZCA. And don't look for Duke to pursue anybody at the Patterson School in Lenoir.

uncwdevil
01-02-2008, 11:14 AM
No inside knowledge or anything, but I'd be very surprised if Duke ends up pursuing John Wall, especially if he stays at Word of God Academy.

It has nothing to do with his basketball ability.

How can I say this ... it's no coincidence that Duke has not been involved with any of the talented kids who have played at Durham's Mt. Zion Christian Academy in recent years ... and if anything Raleigh's Word of God is even further from the educational mainstream than MZCA. And don't look for Duke to pursue anybody at the Patterson School in Lenoir.

hmm, diploma mill?

sandinmyshoes
01-02-2008, 01:09 PM
I figure since Wall is lobbying for an offer from UNC and Duke, and none have been forthcoming, that there is more to the story than talent. He was also dismissed from his original high school team for an attitude problem? The story being now that he has worked on that after a lesson learned, but still.

Of course there are other issues rumored, not so much about the kid himself. But since DBR frowns on rumors, it's probably best not to stir those up.

As for Bullock, the word down east is that he is a very heavy UNC lean and even has some sort of family or mentor relationship with Jerry Stackhouse?

gotham devil
01-02-2008, 01:52 PM
I figure since Wall is lobbying for an offer from UNC and Duke, and none have been forthcoming, that there is more to the story than talent. He was also dismissed from his original high school team for an attitude problem? The story being now that he has worked on that after a lesson learned, but still.

Of course there are other issues rumored, not so much about the kid himself. But since DBR frowns on rumors, it's probably best not to stir those up.

As for Bullock, the word down east is that he is a very heavy UNC lean and even has some sort of family or mentor relationship with Jerry Stackhouse?
As several know, Wall was at the Albany game.

jimsumner
01-02-2008, 01:55 PM
"He was also dismissed from his original high school team for an attitude problem? "

Wall tried out for the Raleigh Broughton High School team as a sophomore and was cut. So technically, he wasn't dismissed. But the consensus seems to be that his failure to make the team was more a result of perceived attitude problems than lack of talent.

CMS2478
01-02-2008, 02:05 PM
I am more dissapointed to hear that Bullock is a heavy UNC lean, bc he impressed me more so than Wall. :(

NYC Duke Fan
05-18-2008, 04:29 AM
Anyone know anything about John Wall who plays in Raleigh ?

He is suppose to be an outstanding point guard. Is Duke recruiting him ?

JasonEvans
05-18-2008, 05:46 AM
Anyone know anything about John Wall who plays in Raleigh ?

He is suppose to be an outstanding point guard. Is Duke recruiting him ?

He is listing a ton of schools still. Duke is generally regarded as one of the schools he is considering, but we are not at the top of his list. He did an interview with the Lousiville Courier-Journal (http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/demling/labels/John%20Wall.html) just days ago and here is what he said about his list of schools:


Wall said Florida State, Oklahoma State, Oklahoma, Duke, Virginia Tech, Kansas, Miami and U of L have been showing him the most interest lately. He said UK, IU, Memphis, Baylor, N.C. State and Ohio State are among the other schools still in the mix.

--Jason "he is generally regarded as the #1 PG in the extremely talented 2009 class" Evans

roywhite
05-18-2008, 08:23 AM
No inside info, but I would think Wall is a long-shot for Duke, and that Brandon Knight in the class of 2010 is a prime target for our future PG.

Marty10
08-01-2008, 08:39 AM
Here's the article from rivals.com

"The recruitment of John Wall, Rivals.com's No. 1 prospect in the class of 2009,is coming close to an end.

John Wall, Rivals.com's No. 1 pospect in the 2009 class, is expected to announce his college decision early next week.
Wall's travel team coach - Dwon Clifton of D-One Sports - will officially be named Director of Player Development at Baylor University on Friday, according to multiple sources close to the situation.

Wall is a 6-foot-4, 184-pound point guard out of Raleigh (N.C.) Word of God Christian Academy. He is expected to announce his college decision early next week according to Brian Clifton, the director of D-One Sports and Dwon Clifton's older brother.

Naturally, Wall is expected to follow his travel team coach to Baylor.

This development is somewhat surprising considering many news outlets erroneously reported last week - during the travel team tournaments in Las Vegas - that Dwon Clifton and Wall were destined for Oklahoma State.

Baylor apparently was not the only school pursuing Clifton as a coach. According to a source close to the situation, Dwon Clifton was offered coaching positions by other Big 12 schools as well as schools in the Big East and SEC.

Clifton played collegiate basketball at Clemson and then later at North Carolina-Greensboro before playing professionally in Portugal."

I found it a bit shocking, i don't know what you guys think?

Jfrosh
08-01-2008, 09:32 AM
We hear about this kind of thing so often, I can't believe the NCAA allows it, when a high school our AAU coach is hired to the college staff and "coincidentally" a highly ranked kid follows him. The whole thing just reeks to me.

watzone
08-01-2008, 12:21 PM
Here's the article from rivals.com

"The recruitment of John Wall, Rivals.com's No. 1 prospect in the class of 2009,is coming close to an end.

John Wall, Rivals.com's No. 1 pospect in the 2009 class, is expected to announce his college decision early next week.
Wall's travel team coach - Dwon Clifton of D-One Sports - will officially be named Director of Player Development at Baylor University on Friday, according to multiple sources close to the situation.

Wall is a 6-foot-4, 184-pound point guard out of Raleigh (N.C.) Word of God Christian Academy. He is expected to announce his college decision early next week according to Brian Clifton, the director of D-One Sports and Dwon Clifton's older brother.


Naturally, Wall is expected to follow his travel team coach to Baylor.

This development is somewhat surprising considering many news outlets erroneously reported last week - during the travel team tournaments in Las Vegas - that Dwon Clifton and Wall were destined for Oklahoma State.

Baylor apparently was not the only school pursuing Clifton as a coach. According to a source close to the situation, Dwon Clifton was offered coaching positions by other Big 12 schools as well as schools in the Big East and SEC.

Clifton played collegiate basketball at Clemson and then later at North Carolina-Greensboro before playing professionally in Portugal."

I found it a bit shocking, i don't know what you guys think?

See 2009 recruiting thread. The only thing that surpised many is that OSU was out ... okay, I will stop it there;)

pfrduke
08-01-2008, 12:33 PM
We hear about this kind of thing so often, I can't believe the NCAA allows it, when a high school our AAU coach is hired to the college staff and "coincidentally" a highly ranked kid follows him. The whole thing just reeks to me.


Baylor apparently was not the only school pursuing Clifton as a coach. According to a source close to the situation, Dwon Clifton was offered coaching positions by other Big 12 schools as well as schools in the Big East and SEC.

I don't really have a problem with this. As noted, lots of schools were looking to hire Clifton. If John Wall wants to make his decision based on where his coach gets hired, good for him. Even if he wants to insist that the school he plays for hires his coach, again, good for him. No school has to cave into this.

In my opinion, this is vastly different than boosters giving paycheck-only "jobs" to parents/associates of players. This is a fully transparent process - Clifton will be a university employee, subject to university oversight (presumably).

This does not strike me as underhanded in the least.

jimsumner
08-01-2008, 01:44 PM
I find it distasteful but certainly not illegal. I don't see how the NCAA could legislate against this.

One thing does intrigue me about this whole thing. Let's assume Wall goes NBA after one season. Let's assume--for the sake of argument only--that Clifton is over his head and is dismissed after that one season. Does "got fired after one year" look that great on your resume? Isn't there a risk for him? Or is getting your foot in the door so significant that one quit their job, move half way across the country, and subject themselves to this kind of negative scrutiny on a national level?

I don't really know the answer to this question. But I agree coach/player package deals can be credible.

Indoor66
08-01-2008, 01:53 PM
I find it distasteful but certainly not illegal. I don't see how the NCAA could legislate against this.

One thing does intrigue me about this whole thing. Let's assume Wall goes NBA after one season. Let's assume--for the sake of argument only--that Clifton is over his head and is dismissed after that one season. Does "got fired after one year" look that great on your resume? Isn't there a risk for him? Or is getting your foot in the door so significant that one quit their job, move half way across the country, and subject themselves to this kind of negative scrutiny on a national level?

I don't really know the answer to this question. But I agree coach/player package deals can be credible.

What happened to Ed Manning at Kansas? I do not recall his long term career status.

jimsumner
08-01-2008, 02:03 PM
Larry Brown left Kansas after the 1988 season for the NBA and took Ed Manning with him.

sagegrouse
08-01-2008, 02:05 PM
Lets see.... HS players are compelled by the NBA to go to college (or somewhere) for at least one year. Moreover, some of the super talents need and take the time physical development and further refinement. Yet these are multi-million dollar talents. And the colleges bid for their services by offering educational incentives and good coaching and lots of publicity. These things, rather than competitive pay. Moreover, the real talents are worth millions to the successful recruiting insititution and to the recruiting coaches (who are allowed to keep their jobs if successful and may even get more money... or a better job). This is a huge "moral hazard" for the whole recruiting process.

Small wonder that there is money changing hands behind the scenes to influence the outcome. Or, in the Baylor-John wall, case the money is changing hands in public view (through hiring his travel coach), and no one can do anything about it.

I am surprised there isn't more of this. Maybe there is, and it is hidden from view.

I don't have a solution. Paying the kids a few hundred bucks a month for living expenses, etc. would eliminate the petty graft, and I am all for doing so. But it wouldn't change the John Wall/OJ Mayo type problem. Anyhow, I wouldn't want the job as director of enforcement for the NCAA (unless I had subpoena power ... and a bodyguard).

sagegrouse

'The real problem the NCAA can fix is its ridiculous limits on off-season contacts between the coaches and the players. This is truly asinine. These are gonna be professional athletes to age 30, and if the U. is successful, "well-educated" professional athletes. Yet the coaches are allowed to work with the athletes only six months a year in basketball. (The off-season workouts are personal drills with the coaches and very limited in time and activity.) Isn't this like telling Juilliard that you can provide instruction and classes for your budding virtuosi only a couple of hours a week uness piano or violin is in season?'

ricks68
08-02-2008, 01:30 AM
So what's the big surprise? Do the names Press and Pete Maravich ring a bell? Jim certainly remembers that one, don't you Jim?

ricks

Bsim412
10-31-2008, 10:09 AM
Since Kenny Boynton commited to Florida last night there has been word spreading around that Duke is now interested in John Wall out of Word of God in Raliegh. I think Duke would that almost have a miracle to land Wall but Kelly picked Duke and they barely recruited him until a month and a half until he signed with Duke. Kelly also plays with Wall on his AAU team. This could get interesting with Duke holding that extra scholarship for 2009 and give it to Wall. Also I think that Brandon Knight is not interested in Duke anymore. Hopefully if Duke could land Wall they would have 3 in state recruits with Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly.
GO DUKE:)

COYS
10-31-2008, 10:12 AM
Also I think that Brandon Knight is not interested in Duke anymore. Hopefully if Duke could land Wall they would have 3 in state recruits with Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly.
GO DUKE:)

Where did you get this info on Knight?

Marty10
10-31-2008, 01:34 PM
According to Jerry Meyer of Rivals.com, Duke has contacted Wall and begun the recruiting process.

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=870447

SushiChef
10-31-2008, 02:08 PM
What are your thoughts on Wall being another one and done?

CLT Devil
10-31-2008, 02:19 PM
Wall has openly said that he hopes to be a one and done, so personally I'd rather have someone whose willing to stick around and do what is best for the team, as opposed to showcasing one's skills...although one and dones have helped teams make great runs in the recent past.

Also, from what I read, it seems that Duke has not recruited him hard at all...just general mailings, not even from a specific coach. Wall likes to play an up tempo style which would seem to fit Duke, but again he has said he doesn't know much about Duke's style, which I thought interesting. To me, it seems like he wants to be recruited by Duke but we havn't yet shown the interest...here's to hoping that will change in the near future.

Kedsy
10-31-2008, 02:21 PM
What are your thoughts on Wall being another one and done?

First of all, I have my doubts about this, both whether Duke will really press hard on Wall and whether Wall will take it particularly seriously. I don't know anything, of course, but it feels like an odd match.

That said, there is some synergy in recruiting a one-and-done point guard for next year, since we have a point guard graduating after this year and have a good one arriving in 2010. So if Nolan is comfortable playing more of a combo guard, as well as sort of a tutor to a series (well, two at least) of talented but inexperienced lead guards, it could work out very well.

BlueintheFace
10-31-2008, 02:39 PM
I am skeptical of reports that say we are really "recruiting" him. My suspicion is that K is thinking the following.

1) He is close by

2) We lose Greg after this year and don't have another point coming in till 2010 so we can bridge the gap with a one-and-done impact guard (see-Kenny Boynton)

3) He is the #1 PG in the class, but he appears to have lots of baggage (attitude, handlers, etc..)

4) We should at least jump in here to see A) how can he explain these concerns I have, B) if he is even interested.

...I have no information, but my GUESS is that these are the things that are going on when people say that Duke is trying to jump in to the recruitment.

heyman25
10-31-2008, 04:16 PM
Let the coaching staff determine that. If they are recruiting him as a Duke alum and lifetime fan I am ok with Wall's recruitment.

Marty10
10-31-2008, 05:02 PM
I don't have a problem with this either, he's a world class talent, if we could land him, we would surely be equiped to make a big run next year. I agree that he seems to have some attitude problems, but its nothing Coach K couldn't handle. They say he is as good as Rose but with a better jumpshot. I've seen some videos of him and he's crazy fast. Anyways, i think that getting Wall would result in a lot more positives than negatives for the program.

jimsumner
10-31-2008, 05:13 PM
Let's go over some general stuff first.

There seems to be a fair amount of cirumstantial evidence that John Wall, at present, is inclined to spend one year in college before leaving for the NBA.

Mike Krzyzewski discussed his thoughts on recruiting potential one-and-dones on several occasions earlier this year.

He indicated that he is open to recruiting players from that pool if those players are willing to "unpack their bags."

What does that mean? A couple of things.

First, he wants players who will be fully invested in Duke for as long as they are at Duke. Take academics seriously. Be a part of the team. Be a part of the community. Be here.

Second. Put the NBA on the back-burner until the end of the year. The NBA is not going anywhere and they don't hold the draft in February. The end of the season is the proper time to gather information on one's NBA status and the time to make any decision based on that information.

Now Wall goes to a high school that doesn't exactly turn out a lot of Duke-caliber students. That doesn't preclude the possibility that Wall is a Duke-caliber student. The Duke staff takes this stuff seriously and this will be the first hoop to be jumped through.

Let's assume that Wall passes that test. The next part will be the unpacking-the-bags-part. This works both ways. Duke would have to be convinced that Wall would do the things they want and Wall would have to be convinced that going to Duke is in his best interests.

This assumes, of course, that the mutual interest is there. No one doubts that Wall is a superb basketball player. Are he and Duke a good fit? TBD.

All of this stuff, btw, applies to a lot of other top-five prepsters.

A couple of additional things. There is some indication that Wall is not interested in making a decision until spring. So this wouldn't have to be a quickie courtship. Plenty of time for the principals to get to know each other and evaluate each other.

Finally, Wall and Kelly have been AAU teammates and by all indications, have a high regard for each other. At the very least, an additional source of information for both sides. Maybe more, maybe not.

I've been skeptical of any serious Duke-Wall interest for some time but I may well have been wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. So, I'll wait and see what, if anything develops. Along with lots of other people.

bludvlman
10-31-2008, 05:18 PM
considering we got to the national championship game with our last two one and done's (Maggette,Deng) I'm find with it. If Gerald and Kyler come back and we can get Wall we will be ready for another banner in Cameron.

jimsumner
10-31-2008, 05:20 PM
Technically Duke didn't get to the title game with Deng.

The big difference between Maggette and Deng and Wall is that neither of the first two was viewed as likely to go to the NBA after one year. And that's a considerable understatement.

RainingThrees
10-31-2008, 07:27 PM
Do we really have a good chance at Wall or is this just hope?

Kedsy
10-31-2008, 07:50 PM
Do we really have a good chance at Wall or is this just hope?

From what I read, Baylor is still the heavy favorite. But beyond that I doubt anybody really knows. My guess is Duke's a longshot.

mgtr
10-31-2008, 07:51 PM
Do we really want him, or is this just grasping at straws? I'm not persuaded that we need to get an 09 point guard.

Kedsy
10-31-2008, 08:00 PM
Do we really want him, or is this just grasping at straws? I'm not persuaded that we need to get an 09 point guard.

We certainly don't need him. And I don't think anyone should be upset if/when he commits elsewhere. But as I said in an earlier post if Nolan's OK with playing both guard spots then having a one-and-done guard for 2009 would not be a bad thing, whether it's Wall or someone else. Of course, not having such a guard wouldn't be a bad thing, either. I think our backcourt will be just fine with what we have.

So, my conclusion would be if K and the staff want him then we want him and if they don't then we don't. (And, yes, I realize I have an enormous grasp of the obvious.)

RainingThrees
10-31-2008, 08:04 PM
We may only have 4 guards in the 09 season if Gerald leaves and if Marty stays which is kinda thin imo.

mgtr
10-31-2008, 08:12 PM
And if Gerald stays, which is my best guess? Then we should be fine. Plus, we may have somebody drop into our laps, a la Miles Plumlee (a very good drop).

RainingThrees
10-31-2008, 08:35 PM
You really think Gerald is staying? If he has a break out season, which we all know he is capable of, his draft stock will shoot through the roof.

3rd Dukie
10-31-2008, 08:51 PM
Let's go over some general stuff first.

There seems to be a fair amount of cirumstantial evidence that John Wall, at present, is inclined to spend one year in college before leaving for the NBA.

Mike Krzyzewski discussed his thoughts on recruiting potential one-and-dones on several occasions earlier this year.

He indicated that he is open to recruiting players from that pool if those players are willing to "unpack their bags."

What does that mean? A couple of things.

First, he wants players who will be fully invested in Duke for as long as they are at Duke. Take academics seriously. Be a part of the team. Be a part of the community. Be here.

Second. Put the NBA on the back-burner until the end of the year. The NBA is not going anywhere and they don't hold the draft in February. The end of the season is the proper time to gather information on one's NBA status and the time to make any decision based on that information.

Now Wall goes to a high school that doesn't exactly turn out a lot of Duke-caliber students. That doesn't preclude the possibility that Wall is a Duke-caliber student. The Duke staff takes this stuff seriously and this will be the first hoop to be jumped through.

Let's assume that Wall passes that test. The next part will be the unpacking-the-bags-part. This works both ways. Duke would have to be convinced that Wall would do the things they want and Wall would have to be convinced that going to Duke is in his best interests.

This assumes, of course, that the mutual interest is there. No one doubts that Wall is a superb basketball player. Are he and Duke a good fit? TBD.

All of this stuff, btw, applies to a lot of other top-five prepsters.

A couple of additional things. There is some indication that Wall is not interested in making a decision until spring. So this wouldn't have to be a quickie courtship. Plenty of time for the principals to get to know each other and evaluate each other.

Finally, Wall and Kelly have been AAU teammates and by all indications, have a high regard for each other. At the very least, an additional source of information for both sides. Maybe more, maybe not.

I've been skeptical of any serious Duke-Wall interest for some time but I may well have been wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. So, I'll wait and see what, if anything develops. Along with lots of other people.

Jim,
As usual, very well said. I have one question that may be silly. However, that has never stopped me before. Do you think there is any chance might influence Kelly to consider leaving early? Just a thought. I mean, if they're good buds and all...

Thanks.

mgtr
10-31-2008, 08:52 PM
Right, and if pigs had wings, ....... I hope Hendo has a great season, but that doesn't mean he is automatic for the NBA. At what position? PG? Not likely, although Markie may pull it off. Shooting guard? Not his real strength. Small forward, too small. I just think he needs more time to develop into a shooting guard. He is a great size for a wing player in college, but I don't quite see how that translates to the NBA. Best bet: Stay in college, work on your outside shot (which I understand he is doing).
I think he will be fine in the NBA, but not next year. He needs to finish school.

1Devil
11-01-2008, 09:42 AM
Jim,
As usual, very well said. I have one question that may be silly. However, that has never stopped me before. Do you think there is any chance might influence Kelly to consider leaving early? Just a thought. I mean, if they're good buds and all...

Thanks.

I'm not Jim, but I'll answer anyway. Kelly's got a long way to go before his body's ready for the NBA. Right now, his body's not really even ready for the ACC. I wouldn't worry about Kelly leaving in a hurry.

nyr484
11-01-2008, 09:43 AM
The big difference between Maggette and Deng and Wall is that neither of the first two was viewed as likely to go to the NBA after one year.

That's a good point. But Duke has recruited one-and-done types before. Take Shaun Livingston, for example. If Coach K thinks Wall can help the team win in 2009-2010, then I don't think he will hesitate to recruit him. We've got Thornton coming in 2010, so a one-and-done PG in 2009 might actually be a good fit.

Does anyone else have a hard time believing Baylor is the team to beat in this recruitment? I know Wall's AAU coach is there now, and I know there might be some sketchy behind-the-scenes stuff going on there. But, seriously? Baylor? If the guy wants to be a lottery pick, it would probably be helpful to go somewhere that has games on TV more than 5 times in the whole season.

jimsumner
11-01-2008, 10:02 AM
Believe it or not but when Duke recruited Livingston, they fully expected to have him for at least two seasons. Maybe they misread him, maybe he misled Duke. More likely, things just changed. But that's another can of worms.

McRoberts was probably viewed as more of a one-and-done risk than Livingston, although Duke did expect him to play at least two years.

But again, this is a subject that K has discussed in public very candidly and I suspect an area in which he has moved somewhat over the years.

It should also be noted that K has indicated that he has no problem with players going directly from high school to the NBA but that he favors a longer mandatory committment to college for those who elect to go to college.

Not naming names here because I can't prove it, but sources that I trust have indicated to me that some of last year's freshman-to-NBA-players literally didn't bother to even show up for class in the second semester of their sole college year. That's the kind of situation K wants to avoid.

jimsumner
11-01-2008, 10:08 AM
Didn't see the question on Kelly on the previous page until after the previous posting.

I can't imagine Kelly even thinking of the NBA until after his junior year. His parents are Yale alums, his mother is an academic, he is a superb student at an expensive, academically elite private school.

Virtually every athlete who comes to Duke pays lip service to the value of a Duke degree. Almost all mean it to a certain extent. But I think Kelly is on the side of the continuum occupied by Duke students who have never set foot on an athletic field a day in their lives. NBA or no NBA, he strikes me as a kid who isn't going to lightly give up a Duke education or a Duke degree.

chrishoke
11-01-2008, 10:18 AM
Not naming names here because I can't prove it, but sources that I trust have indicated to me that some of last year's freshman-to-NBA-players literally didn't bother to even show up for class in the second semester of their sole college year. That's the kind of situation K wants to avoid.

Yes, and this Duke fan as well.

BD80
11-01-2008, 12:40 PM
... Not naming names here because I can't prove it, but sources that I trust have indicated to me that some of last year's freshman-to-NBA-players literally didn't bother to even show up for class in the second semester of their sole college year. ...

Cough (Derrick Rose) Cough

Cough (Michael Beasley) Cough

Cough (O.J. Mayo) Cough

I believe they are also allowed to have some failing grades in the first semester without consequence to their eligibility in the second semester.

As much as I disliked Eric Gordon for screwing over Illinois at the last minute
to join the slimy Kelvin Sampson, I have heard he actually put forth full effort academically.

FireOgilvie
11-01-2008, 04:14 PM
Cough (Derrick Rose) Cough

Cough (Michael Beasley) Cough

Cough (O.J. Mayo) Cough

I believe they are also allowed to have some failing grades in the first semester without consequence to their eligibility in the second semester.

As much as I disliked Eric Gordon for screwing over Illinois at the last minute
to join the slimy Kelvin Sampson, I have heard he actually put forth full effort academically.

Do you know that for sure?

houstondukie
11-01-2008, 04:25 PM
Coach K is not against one-and-done players.

He has told Josh Smith that he fully supports his decision to leave after one year if that is what Smith wants to do and is in his best interest.

Wall is no different.

DDB4208
11-02-2008, 02:28 PM
I feel like a lot of people are assuming that John Wall has attitude problems and I don't feel that way. His coaches say that he used to a little bit but that he has changed. He isn't a great student but he seems like a nice kid. Sean Dockery didn't have great grades coming into Duke but he represented Duke well and was a class act.

John's Mother is pretty ill and so I think he will deffinitely give Duke a look because he lives in Raleigh. There is 99% chance that he will leave after one year but I think he has Derrick Rose talent and would be beneficial to us. Below is a link of an interiview with Wall.

http://sports.espn.go.com/highschool/rise/basketball/boys/news/story?id=3610222

houstondukie
11-02-2008, 07:32 PM
I feel like a lot of people are assuming that John Wall has attitude problems and I don't feel that way. His coaches say that he used to a little bit but that he has changed. He isn't a great student but he seems like a nice kid. Sean Dockery didn't have great grades coming into Duke but he represented Duke well and was a class act.

John's Mother is pretty ill and so I think he will deffinitely give Duke a look because he lives in Raleigh. There is 99% chance that he will leave after one year but I think he has Derrick Rose talent and would be beneficial to us. Below is a link of an interiview with Wall.

http://sports.espn.go.com/highschool/rise/basketball/boys/news/story?id=3610222

Thanks for the article. Wall comes across as not only a great player but, dare I say, a great person. He doesn't seem at all like the bad kid with attitude problems that some people think he is.

Hopefully Coach K can get to know the real John Wall, and if he is a good kid like the article projects, then we would be very lucky to get him.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-02-2008, 08:04 PM
No doubt. I've heard about his past "issues" but his family medical troubles go a long way to explaining that to me. His maturity in the interview suggests that he's grown a whole lot since then, and if the staff thinks he's the right guy and he's willing to dedicate himself to a disciplined program like Duke, I'm 100% in favor of having him, even for 1 season.

Indeed, I'd imagine having both the support and the academic and behavioral expectations of someone like K might be the best thing in the world for a kid in his situation. And lord knows we've got a spot for him. I said earlier that I didn't think Kenny B would start from day 1 because he is an undersized combo guard. As a big "true" PG I absolutely think Wall would have a great opportunity to start from day 1. I know we're latecomers and may be a longshot, but this seems like a pretty good fit on both ends to me.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-02-2008, 08:36 PM
Sorry to double-post, but here's another article (http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/789105.html) on John Wall.


"Knowing Wall, watching his journey and seeing his growth, there’s a lot to be said for the manner in which he’s handling it all. He’s matured with the help of others, figured out some of it on his own and for his efforts has his life and future pointed in the proper direction. Where he’s at now is a lot farther than where he was two seasons ago."

...

"There’s a lesson to be learned in his path to success. It’s rooted in overcoming obstacles and being willing to put in the hard work to improve one’s character as well as one’s game. And for that John Wall has become a shining example. "


Once again, he credited with working hard to turn his life around and seems to have matured as much in terms of character as he has in his on-court performance. There's a lot to admire about this kid, and a lot of the lessons he talks about are ones that K is second to none in teaching.

bludvlman
11-02-2008, 10:54 PM
If Gerald and Kyle stay we will be the favorites to win it all. Then we should defenitely go after Wall b/c who cares if he is gone after 1 year if he helps bring a championship in that 1 year.

Bob Green
11-03-2008, 02:10 AM
Then we should defenitely [sic] go after Wall b/c who cares if he is gone after 1 year if he helps bring a championship in that 1 year.

Many people care. College sports is about so much more than winning championships. For starters it is about developing skills that allow people to succeed in life. I don't know John Wall and I am not inferring he is a bad guy, but if he comes to Duke he needs to come with the full understanding that he will be required to be a student-athlete. I'm sure Coach K and staff will explicitly explain this to him and if they are convinced I'm convinced.

I would really like to see the NCAA allow high school stars to go straight to the NBA but require those who commit to college to stay three years.

Diddy
11-03-2008, 09:49 AM
If Gerald and Kyle stay we will be the favorites to win it all. Then we should defenitely go after Wall b/c who cares if he is gone after 1 year if he helps bring a championship in that 1 year.

Best Case: Gerald and Kyle BOTH return. In such a scenario, Duke is a top2-3 team. Off the top of my head, I don't really know who the other top teams are. A couple fo teams are "rebuilding" and depending on how that goes this year/who returns, I am not sure who the top squads are. UCLA might look good, Tenn has potential, WFU might be good. It is not inconcievable that UNC is Fantastic, but that assumes they only lose their seniors, but who here thinks that will happen?

In such a scenario, Duke is fantastic. We have three definitely great perimeter players, and one potentially great perimeter players. We are unstoppable. A couple of very good forwards would barely play. Wall would join an already very crowded perimeter rotation, which could really jam up chemistry.

I think this is unlikely, for a couple of reasons. I think Hendo may soon be regarded as the second best player in the ACC. Pro Scouts will regard him as the best prospect in the ACC, and one of the best in the nation. At 6-4, 205+ lbs, with freakish athleticism, he will look great. There are some ball handling issues, and some outside shooting issues, but those aren't huge concerns. It is not that he is bad at those things. He is not great at those things. At worst, he is adequate at those things, and his athleticism, and defensive prowess' will more than compensate for two areas where he will continue to steadily improve. I view Hendo as likely to leave. This year's draft is a wasteland. Hendo will shine like a beacon in the dark. He is a late lottery selection if the draft were held today. With a great year he could be top 5, and that won't improve with another year in school.

Singler could leave. I view him as likely to stay. But he could leave. His draft positives are IQ and skills. His negatives, or questions, are size and athleticism. He is too small for PF (NBA) and too slow(?) for SF. Unless that has changed this summer. He put on weight and got stronger. If he has a great year, and showcases improved strength and NBA quickness in an NBA body, something could happen.

I say this because of the Kelly pursuit. He plays a similiar game to Singler. K asked Kelly to wait until after the olympics. After Beijing, K comes back to Duke, spent a couple of days doing whatevs, and suddenly puts the full court press on Kelly, even though next years team would have featured both Plums, Singler, Thomas and Zoubs. Why put the press on for a kid in Kelly who duplicates what we currently or will have? I think K got back and saw what Singler had achieved, and realized that Singler could have the type of year where a NBA jump is a possibility.

If we lose both Hendo and Singler I would be OK. Duke would have to make a FF run and be dominant during the ACC, losing only a couple of games and really making a race of it with UNC. Fine. Duke has a great year, we lose kids early. That is the reality of College ball.

Should we keep both, Wall is superfluous. He helps probablly, but it creates a logjam at the guard. John has indicated he is waiting tills spring to see who needs him/best situation. If we keep both, John looks elsewhere. Where would he fit in? Do you think he supplants a Jr in Nolan Smith? Smith will play a lot at PG this year, and will have another summer, maybe on a national team somewhere, to hone his skills. He would already know the system, his teammates, and his league opponents. He would be darn hard to beat out. Heck, it might be hard to get quality minutes away from him. Scheyer would play, TONS, and Williams would get quality mins at both slots. With Hendo and Singler, and the other Fs down low, Scheyer would not play at SF for any meaningful time. Wall has a tough time cracking that rotation.

Should Worst Case (losing both Hendo and Singler) occur Duke becomes attractive. We would have tons of potential weapons. He would play a lot, maybe, and help a team make another run in march. UNLESS, he waits and sees Smith become a legitimate star guard. In which case, he looks elsewhere cause Duke doesn't need his services.

His decision will be based on the best situation for him. He would help, but is not a need situation. If Duke makes a run, which more and more unbiased media observers are predicition, we might need him. Should that happen, I think he would show up and do some damage. This recruitment will take a while so just sit back and enjoy.

Kedsy
11-03-2008, 11:34 AM
UNLESS, he waits and sees Smith become a legitimate star guard. In which case, he looks elsewhere cause Duke doesn't need his services.

I agree with most of what you say, but these days the #1 recruit in the country doesn't look anywhere because a team doesn't need his services. He's made it known he's planning to be one and done. If a team won't play him, they won't recruit him. If they recruit him, it doesn't matter who's already on the team. Wherever he goes, this level of recruit is going to play.

If Wall comes to Duke, it means Nolan will be playing combo guard and Jon will be playing some wing forward. They'll all play, but they won't play at Wall's expense. Unless he's significantly worse than advertised, in which case he won't be a one-and-done, anyway.

gotham devil
11-03-2008, 02:01 PM
Didn't see the question on Kelly on the previous page until after the previous posting.

I can't imagine Kelly even thinking of the NBA until after his junior year. His parents are Yale alums, his mother is an academic, he is a superb student at an expensive, academically elite private school.

Virtually every athlete who comes to Duke pays lip service to the value of a Duke degree. Almost all mean it to a certain extent. But I think Kelly is on the side of the continuum occupied by Duke students who have never set foot on an athletic field a day in their lives. NBA or no NBA, he strikes me as a kid who isn't going to lightly give up a Duke education or a Duke degree.
Mrs. Kelly actually never went to Yale.
She was a volleyball player for Villanova, before transferring to Penn.

watzone
11-03-2008, 02:27 PM
Where is any evidence that John Wall is a bad student? Is there a link or somebody with his transcripts out there? It seems this is one of those assumptions which has garnered speed over the years. While there could have been a little tude back in the day, it hasn't seemed to be an issue in at least two years. In my talks with Wall, he has been honest and upfront if not articulate. When I looked more closely at grade accusations, they seem unfounded. That said, a heads up for the Crazies - he will visit (unofficial) and or take in the Lenoir Rhine game. That's as much as I feel comfortable saying. Well, other than this - he is being looked at but it's too early to imply but so much. I wouldn't get all wrapped up in it as some did Boynton. Enjoy the season and see what develops.

Bluedog
11-03-2008, 02:55 PM
Where is any evidence that John Wall is a bad student? Is there a link or somebody with his transcripts out there? It seems this is one of those assumptions which has garnered speed over the years.

Yes, his GPA is 2.6. Also, he's taking SAT prep courses to reach the NCAA minimum. I'd say it's safe to say he's below the typical academic standards of most Duke b-ball players. However, this doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to handle Duke as there have been players in the past who have shown that they have the maturity to work hard to be able to perform academically at Duke even though they did not have great high school academic credentials (e.g. Dockery). I trust the coaches judgment.

http://sports.espn.go.com/highschool/rise/basketball/boys/news/story?id=3610222


In 2006, Word of God was one of 25 schools that the NCAA refused to accept transcripts from in its crackdown of "diploma mills."

Now free and clear, Word of God founder and pastor, Dr. Frank Summerfield, has upped the GPA requirement for athletes from the private school state recommended 2.0 to a 2.4.

Wall holds down a 2.6.

watzone
11-03-2008, 03:53 PM
Okay, then it's confirmed. Still, Dockery had similar marks and graduated on time. With his Mom's sickness and a few other things I won't get into, well, those types of things have to factor in. How much has this kind of burden effected him?

gotham devil
11-03-2008, 04:20 PM
http://www.zagsblog.com/2008/11/03/wall-likely-to-visit-duke/

jimsumner
11-03-2008, 04:23 PM
Gotham Devil,

Thanks for the correction Re. Mrs. Kelly.

BD80
11-03-2008, 04:46 PM
Where is any evidence that John Wall is a bad student? Is there a link or somebody with his transcripts out there? ...


http://www.zagsblog.com/2008/11/03/wall-likely-to-visit-duke/

This quote evokes concern and hope:


...Wall showed some interest in Duke this past summer and the coaching staff recently reached out to the people in his inner circle. Duke pulled his transcripts and was pleasantly surprised...

Having an "inner circle" can imply an unhealthy influence, a la Iverson or Melo when they are on the east coast. I know some of our kids have had "inner circles" of family, friends and coaches that have been healthy, so we might want to leave it to the coaching staff to evaluate. If his inner circle is unhealthy, it might be best for Wall to get away.

It also sounds like the Duke staff if doing its due diligence on Wall's academic abilities. I only remember one player in the last 20 years having real academic problems, so it may be that we can trust the staff on that score as well.

So the situation is that we had been holding a scholarship for a top 10 combo guard for next year, and that scholarship is now available. We now find that there is some mutual interest with the #1 overall prospect who is a 6'4" guard, who also has an interest to stay in the area to be near his mother, and who will be visiting this weekend.

I think we should be enthusiastic and make him feel welcome!

jimsumner
11-03-2008, 05:13 PM
"I only remember one player in the last 20 years having real academic problems, so it may be that we can trust the staff on that score as well."

In the last 20 years I can think of Joe Cook, Kenny Blakeney, Tony Moore, Ricky Price, Greg Newton, and Andre Sweet missing time because of academics.

BD80
11-03-2008, 05:22 PM
"I only remember one player in the last 20 years having real academic problems, so it may be that we can trust the staff on that score as well."

In the last 20 years I can think of Joe Cook, Kenny Blakeney, Tony Moore, Ricky Price, Greg Newton, and Andre Sweet missing time because of academics.

Didn't all but one end up with his degree within the prescribed time?

jimbonelson
11-03-2008, 05:26 PM
Many people care. College sports is about so much more than winning championships. For starters it is about developing skills that allow people to succeed in life. I don't know John Wall and I am not inferring he is a bad guy, but if he comes to Duke he needs to come with the full understanding that he will be required to be a student-athlete. I'm sure Coach K and staff will explicitly explain this to him and if they are convinced I'm convinced.

I would really like to see the NCAA allow high school stars to go straight to the NBA but require those who commit to college to stay three years.

i agree, but what happens when the high school star does not get drafted.what happens to those players, also why wouldn't the top 100 players opt for the NBA just in case

BlueintheFace
11-03-2008, 05:26 PM
I only remember one player in the last 20 years having real academic problems, so it may be that we can trust the staff on that score as well.

Greg Newton didn't fail classes, classes failed Greg Newton.

jimsumner
11-03-2008, 05:36 PM
Cook and Moore left the program without degrees. I'm pretty sure Cook never got his degree. Don't know about Moore.

Sweet was held out the second semester of his only year at Duke and transferred to Seton Hall. I'm pretty sure Blakeney got his degree because he went into college coaching.

The point wasn't whether these guys got degrees or not but whether they had academic trouble at Duke. As stated before, all were inactive at Duke because of academic problems.

Moore was the most confusing and most frustrating. He stayed eligible at Duke for 3 1/2 seasons, finally got a starting nod as a senior and then flunked out.

BD80
11-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Cook and Moore left the program without degrees. I'm pretty sure Cook never got his degree. Don't know about Moore.

Sweet was held out the second semester of his only year at Duke and transferred to Seton Hall. I'm pretty sure Blakeney got his degree because he went into college coaching.

The point wasn't whether these guys got degrees or not but whether they had academic trouble at Duke. As stated before, all were inactive at Duke because of academic problems.

Moore was the most confusing and most frustrating. He stayed eligible at Duke for 3 1/2 seasons, finally got a starting nod as a senior and then flunked out.

Whatever did become of Joe Cook?

We do hang the 1994 NCAA Runner-up banner don't we? I thought we wouldn't do that if Blakeney, Moore and Newton hadn't achieved their degrees. My understanding is that Sweet did graduate at SH.

My point is that having an academic "setback" doesn't mean that the kid wasn't Duke material. Overcoming these obstacles and getting a degree makes the kid a success in my mind. I think Blakeney would be an example of that.

I don't see the staff bringing in a kid with no interest in academics, or a kid with no chance of succeeding academically at Duke.

The worst scenario in my mind is a kid that blows off class after the first semester of his final season. If Wall is that kind of kid, please let's stay away. But it doesn't sound like he is that kind of kid, and it sounds like we won't take that kind of kid.

gotham devil
11-03-2008, 07:44 PM
This quote evokes concern and hope:



Having an "inner circle" can imply an unhealthy influence, a la Iverson or Melo when they are on the east coast. I know some of our kids have had "inner circles" of family, friends and coaches that have been healthy, so we might want to leave it to the coaching staff to evaluate. If his inner circle is unhealthy, it might be best for Wall to get away.

It also sounds like the Duke staff if doing its due diligence on Wall's academic abilities. I only remember one player in the last 20 years having real academic problems, so it may be that we can trust the staff on that score as well.

So the situation is that we had been holding a scholarship for a top 10 combo guard for next year, and that scholarship is now available. We now find that there is some mutual interest with the #1 overall prospect who is a 6'4" guard, who also has an interest to stay in the area to be near his mother, and who will be visiting this weekend.

I think we should be enthusiastic and make him feel welcome!

1) There's nothing inherently pejorative in the phrase, "inner circle."

2) The staff has more than earned the fan base's trust, with respect to the character of the young men they have attracted over the past 25+ years.

3) If there were ever a time that the Crazies should be loud and creative for a recruit, it's when the staff is able to bring in the #1 recruit in the country for a game [still a big deal, even at a program like Duke] and he's got a name that one can work with. ;)

heyman25
11-03-2008, 07:44 PM
Wall knows Ryan Kelly which is a bonus. I would be elated if John Wall went to Duke. Its a positive if an average student can get exposed to an excellent academic environment. Its not like we are taking guys that may have trouble with the law like UCONN. And in fairness to Calhoun he has turned these troubled teens into better characters. If I was one of the students that had my property stolen, I wouldn't want Marcus Williams or AJ Price getting a second chance period.

DDB4208
11-03-2008, 08:59 PM
a heads up for the Crazies - he will visit (unofficial) and or take in the Lenoir Rhine game.

Thanks Watzone. I know that this may not mean anything, but I think this is great news. When we get a player in Cameron there is always the possibility that they could agree that it is the greatest atmosphere it sports and that gives Duke a chance.

I also just wanted to add a fact about John. His father passed away from "complications from cancer" when John was 8 years old. Here is a quote from the ESPN linked I posted earlier.
--------------------------------------------
"Then she told me that my dad died. It hit me pretty hard."

The effects lasted for years.

Fighting, trouble in school and backtalk were a weekly occurrence, according to Pulley.

"You wouldn't believe it today, because he's completely different," Pulley says. "But John used to get into all types of mess."
--------------------------------------------
I'm not saying that it justifies any bad behavior but I really think that this kid is a great kid who has changed for the better (not that he was bad to begin with) and I would love to have him in our program.

Now let's listen to Watzone and welcome him to Cameron when he comes!

bigj4194
11-03-2008, 09:02 PM
we will be putting it in the cheer sheet and i will do my best to get a cheer started to welcome him to Cameron Indoor! Thanks watzone and others for letting us all know!

watzone
11-04-2008, 08:38 AM
Just make sure he's in the stands for sure, in that schedules and such can change. I will try to confirm he's there for sure. FWIW, no offer has been made at this time.

hughgs
11-04-2008, 08:59 AM
We do hang the 1994 NCAA Runner-up banner don't we? I thought we wouldn't do that if Blakeney, Moore and Newton hadn't achieved their degrees.

The "requirement" is that the seniors on the team graduate.

yancem
11-04-2008, 09:26 AM
1) There's nothing inherently pejorative in the phrase, "inner circle."

I agree totally. Inner circle could simply mean his mother and coach. I would hope that every kid has an inner circle when it comes to making big decisions like where to attend college.

gotham devil
11-04-2008, 10:05 AM
Just make sure he's in the stands for sure, in that schedules and such can change. I will try to confirm he's there for sure. FWIW, no offer has been made at this time.

Isn't the standard protocol for Coach Krzyzewski to observe a player on the court, do a background check, and have a conversation with the young man before formally offering the player?

In this case, I would assume that the missing step is the satisfactory conversation with the player.

gotham devil
11-04-2008, 10:14 AM
I agree totally. Inner circle could simply mean his mother and coach. I would hope that every kid has an inner circle when it comes to making big decisions like where to attend college.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/kevin_armstrong/07/01/wall.0701/index.html

If his mother cannot get him on the phone, she can call one of us and we can reach out and put our hands on him," says Brian Clifton, who introduced discipline to Wall when he joined the program, forced him to shave his braids and made him agree to not get tattoos. "I think that's a tremendous asset."

The Cliftons are the chief counselors in Wall's recruitment. Noting that Wall's mother is not a basketball person and a woman of few words, the brothers have fielded the majority of inquiries from Wall's suitors. "Before John was introduced to the rest of the world, there were few people actively participating in his life in a constructive way," says Brian Clifton, who lists Wall's mother, sisters Sierra and Tanya, as well as Beckwith, his high school coach, in the recruit's inner circle. "Now the phone rings off the hook, and they have to be selective of who they talk with."

COYS
11-04-2008, 12:44 PM
I'm honestly surprised that there is so much skepticism regarding Wall. The staff knows what they're doing and Wall is quite a talent! They'll only recruit him if they think that he's a good fit. You can certainly make the argument that he'd be even better on the court than Boynton. Many recruiting gurus certainly do. I know we've gotten into the game late with Wall so I'll keep my optimism in check, but what a crop of recruits we'd have with Wall, Kelly, and Mason! If Henderson leaves, a backcourt that can play some combo of Scheyer, Smith, Williams, Marty and Wall would be about as high-flying and exciting as they come. We'll be fine next year, no matter what. But, honestly, this is an exciting development, even if it's a long shot. Wall, come on down to Durham!

bigj4194
11-04-2008, 12:46 PM
Just make sure he's in the stands for sure, in that schedules and such can change. I will try to confirm he's there for sure. FWIW, no offer has been made at this time.

I will be doing that...thanks for the update!

CMS2478
11-05-2008, 08:43 AM
Well if you ready the article on the home page about his recruitment is says that he will not be visiting at tonight's game or this week, but will eventually. Which is it? Is he going to be there or not, does anyone know? Watzone? Any latest?

Thanks in advance......CMS

Carlos
11-05-2008, 08:43 AM
According to Zags Blog, John Wall is not coming tonight.

http://www.zagsblog.com/2008/11/03/wall-likely-to-visit-duke/

watzone
11-05-2008, 09:56 AM
According to Zags Blog, John Wall is not coming tonight.

http://www.zagsblog.com/2008/11/03/wall-likely-to-visit-duke/

Thats' correct.

CMS2478
11-05-2008, 10:00 AM
Thats' correct.

That sucks. :mad: I am going to the game and was looking forward to hearing the crazies welcome him.

Diddy
11-05-2008, 02:14 PM
http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/goodmanonfox/2008/11/05/MAILBOX_DUKE_HITTING_THE_WALL

The above is to a link on Fox Sports by Jeff Goodman. I think Goodman is a pretty straight shooter who doesn't have an axe to grind with anyone. I have always found his analysis to be solid. He thinks Wall to Duke makes sense, and lays out a compellig case for such a scenario.

Still, I don't agree with everything he says. I am not sold that Wall would definitely start over Nolan Smith. A lot of people in the media seem to be sleeping on Nolan. But for him to supplant Paulus as the starter, the Staff must have seen something special in practice. I am not saying he will be a superstar from day 1 this year, but the potential mut be way up there.

Wall is going to wait until Spring is what many are saying, and Duke's attrition/player development will be Key. Wall would be nice for Depth, but we may not really need him.

gotham devil
11-05-2008, 02:21 PM
http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/goodmanonfox/2008/11/05/MAILBOX_DUKE_HITTING_THE_WALL

Wall would be nice for Depth, but we may not really need him.

CoacH Krzyzewski is working with seven McDonald's all-Americans, but it would be nice to think that we don't need a future NBA point guard a.k.a. the top recruit in this class. Personally, I'd be ecstatic if Coach Krzyzewski and the staff were able to land John Wall.

Diddy
11-05-2008, 02:27 PM
I get that he is a special player. When I say we don't need him, I mean need in the desperate sense of the word. As in, NCSU needs a pg. Duke would be better with Wall, but we would still be a potentially top 5 team without him. If nobody leaves this year, we might even be number 1 next year. If we were to lose only one player early, we are still top 5.

When I say we don't need Wall, I do so because I do not see the glaring hole in next year's roster. We could potentially be a little thin in the backcourt, but our starters and current subs will be fine. I don't see Wall doing cartwheels over the prospect of joining a team where he is not definitely the starting PG from the minute he committs, and I just don't see that at Duke.

And personally, I think that with a year or two of experience and development, Nolan will turn into a starting NBA pg one day.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
11-05-2008, 02:41 PM
And personally, I think that with a year or two of experience and development, Nolan will turn into a starting NBA pg one day.

You may very well be correct. I'm certainly cheering for him. But John Wall is already the sort of pass-first creator/distributor that we're hoping Nolan can become. We've got some amazing scoring threats, and having a guy like Wall to get them the ball in scoring position has my mouth watering.

If Nolan beats him out then we have an amazing PG on the bench. If not, we fill a major hole with a guy that can generate points for the entire team. It's win-win, IMO. I totally agree that we're not desperate, but Wall would be a major asset for any team and I think he does fill a hole.

Skitzle
11-05-2008, 02:46 PM
Lets assume Henderson is gone after this season.

If wall comes I believe the 2009 Starting lineup will be

Pg Wall
Smith
Scheyer
Singler
Plumlee/Kelly/Plumlee/Zoubek

Elliot Williams will be first off the bench.

Kedsy
11-05-2008, 03:28 PM
When I say we don't need Wall, I do so because I do not see the glaring hole in next year's roster. We could potentially be a little thin in the backcourt, but our starters and current subs will be fine. I don't see Wall doing cartwheels over the prospect of joining a team where he is not definitely the starting PG from the minute he committs, and I just don't see that at Duke.

You're right that we don't need him. But if we recruit him there's no way he doesn't get starter's minutes. The same is true for whichever of Nolan, G, Jon, and Elliot are still around. Put another way, I don't know who would sit at the beginning of the game (I suspect it would not be Wall if he comes), but I'd be shocked if every one of those players don't see 20 to 30 minutes a game next year if they are on the team.

BD80
11-05-2008, 05:14 PM
... I am not sold that Wall would definitely start over Nolan Smith. A lot of people in the media seem to be sleeping on Nolan. But for him to supplant Paulus as the starter, the Staff must have seen something special in practice. I am not saying he will be a superstar from day 1 this year, but the potential mut be way up there.

... Wall would be nice for Depth, but we may not really need him.

... I don't see Wall doing cartwheels over the prospect of joining a team where he is not definitely the starting PG from the minute he committs, and I just don't see that at Duke. ...

Nolan is a fine player and a potential all ACC caliber player. Wall is a potential All American. I have not seen him play, but if he is rated ahead of Kenny B, he must be really good. A player of that caliber gives a team a MUCH better chance at winning the NC. Only five players are allowed on the court at a time and there is only one ball. Having a player that can take over a game is an incredible advantage. That said, if Wall can't play defense, he wouldn't get on the court for Duke. Wall won't necessarily take Nolan's minutes, but he will get minutes and he would greatly increase our chances of winning a NC.

Tim1515
11-05-2008, 05:30 PM
I think it's fair to assume with K jumping right to Wall after Kenny's decision that he's preparing for Hendo to leave. Duke doesn't NEED Wall just like they didn't NEED Boynton...but adding talent like that to next year's Duke team could make them the title favorites...not just contenders.

I would assume that if Hendo leaves and Wall comes to Duke he would start with Nolan playing a point/SG. Both could and would bring up the ball at times similar to what i expect from Paulus and Smith this year.

RainingThrees
11-05-2008, 05:33 PM
It would look like old times when we had Duhon and J-Will. And we know how good that turned out!

mgtr
11-05-2008, 05:37 PM
Many posters assume that Hendo will leave next year. He would have to improve a bunch, in my opinion, to go to the NBA next year. I hope he improves that much, but I would like him to stay. Is he a good student? What advice would his father give him?

houstondukie
11-05-2008, 07:23 PM
I recently read on "Ask Jerry Meyers your questions" on RIVALS.com that he believes John Wall is better than Derrick Rose at similar points in their careers. To paraphrase, he thinks Wall is a tad quicker, a better passer, and better finisher especially w/ the left hand than Rose. That is a bold statement but it is coming from a guy who makes a living following high school basketball, so it must mean something.

I personally think John Wall is a longshot but a possibility. If we were to land him, where would he rank among Duke's best* recruits?

*combination of talent, expectations, hype

houstondukie
11-05-2008, 07:25 PM
I recently read on "Ask Jerry Meyers your questions" on RIVALS.com that he believes John Wall is better than Derrick Rose at similar points in their careers. To paraphrase, he thinks Wall is a tad quicker, a better passer, and better finisher especially w/ the left hand than Rose. That is a bold statement but it is coming from a guy who makes a living following high school basketball, so it must mean something.

I personally think John Wall is a longshot but a possibility. If we were to land him, where would he rank among Duke's best* recruits?

*combination of talent, expectations, hype

Some that come to my mind...

Luol Deng
Elton Brand
Chris Burgess

SupaDave
11-05-2008, 07:30 PM
Some that come to my mind...

Luol Deng
Elton Brand
Chris Burgess

Actually Jason Williams is the first thing that pops into my mind...

houstondukie
11-05-2008, 07:37 PM
"Ryan [Kelly] definitely doesn't look like a basketball player,"

said John Wall,

"But I learned that looks are deceiving when I practiced with him just one time. I knew he could be one of the top players in the country, and he is. I'm proud of him."

wilko
11-05-2008, 07:43 PM
Shouldnt we wait and see how this plays out before we invest too much hope and energy into this recruiting game?

Like with near misses in the recent past... and we are getting in the game late for his services... lets not get too far ahead of ourselves.

If we hype it and hype cuz we want this really good player and he chooses another option I think it will add to the already skewed recruiting perception.

Im not sure I can keep living thru that.

Bluedog
11-05-2008, 07:47 PM
Shaun Livingston, Johnny D, Grant Hill.

If hype is part of the criteria (which I don't think it should be), then recent recruits that hold out for a long time would be considered the "best" (lots more national attention is placed on high school players than in decades past with the internet, recruiting services, etc.). Even somebody like LT had a lot of hype since he held out so long...obviously, nowhere near the talent level though. Randolph too....major recruiting battles for him.

There have been so many high touted recruits in recent years. Since just 2002, the following were ranked as top three in the nation at his position, according to scout: JJ, Shelden, Luol, Livingston, McRoberts, Paulus, Boateng, Scheyer, Singler, and Kelly.

But, yeah, this is way premature....we haven't even offered him yet (as far as I know)!

houstondukie
11-05-2008, 07:48 PM
Shouldnt we wait and see how this plays out before we invest too much hope and energy into this recruiting game?

Like with near misses in the recent past... and we are getting in the game late for his services... lets not get too far ahead of ourselves.

If we hype it and hype cuz we want this really good player and he chooses another option I think it will add to the already skewed recruiting perception.

Im not sure I can keep living thru that.

get a grip

houstondukie
11-05-2008, 07:51 PM
Shaun Livingston, Johnny D, Grant Hill.

If hype is part of the criteria (which I don't think it should be), then recent recruits that hold out for a long time would be considered the "best" (lots more national attention is placed on high school players than in decades past with the internet, recruiting services, etc.). Even somebody like LT had a lot of hype since he held out so long...obviously, nowhere near the talent level though. Randolph too....major recruiting battles for him.

There have been so many high touted recruits in recent years. Since just 2002, the following were ranked as top three in the nation at his position, according to scout: JJ, Shelden, Luol, Livingston, McRoberts, Paulus, Boateng, Scheyer, Singler, and Kelly.

But, yeah, this is way premature....we haven't even offered him yet (as far as I know)!

You're right, it probably shouldn't be.

wilko
11-05-2008, 07:58 PM
get a grip

whatev, dude.
If he winds up not coming, dont go getting all bent out of shape..

SupaDave
11-05-2008, 08:08 PM
Many posters assume that Hendo will leave next year. He would have to improve a bunch, in my opinion, to go to the NBA next year. I hope he improves that much, but I would like him to stay. Is he a good student? What advice would his father give him?

Ummm... Be ready to be impressed with G this year.

He doesn't HAVE to go pro - but he's considered one of the ACC's best prospects right NOW.

He's a captain for the Duke Univ. basketball team. I think that requires being at LEAST a decent student.

And you would probably need to ask his dad that last question. If I were his dad I would tell him not to rush things - enjoy school. However, he has the ability to be a lottery pick and with a great year it will be hard to say no.

SupaDave
11-05-2008, 08:10 PM
And personally, I think that with a year or two of experience and development, Nolan will turn into a starting NBA pg one day.

Markie did it in a summer. :)

Diddy
11-06-2008, 11:59 AM
SupaDave makes a valid point, one that I strongly considered throwing in to my original post.

I still question Wall's immediate inclusion into the starting lineup. Even if G goes pro, I still don't see a guaranteed starting lineup. Right now, Wall is all potential. And that potential is way up there. But he is not a perfect player. One of his negatives is that he plays out of control, another is his outside shot. And his defensive effort has been up and down.

He has spent his career playing PG, and has the skills down. Nolan hasn't. I think a lot of people are comparing Wall's high potential with what they remember of Nolan's Up-and-down Frosh year. A year where he spent relatively little time actually running the point. It is hard, and speculative, but we have to consider where Nolan will be next season.

Nolan will spend this year playing PG. He will learn from both the staff and Greg Paulus. Whatever faults Greg has, he is a font of valuable info and experience. Nolan will soak it up. And this is the first time Nolan has ever played PG extensively. Throughout HS he played SG. Part of this was because he was always on a team with a star PG. Part of this was that I think Nolan expected to grow more. He has huge feet for a kid his size. His dad was tall, and Nolan hit his current height relatively early. I think he expected to grow to 6-5 or better based on an interview from his Jr year. It never happened, so he had to add PG skills to the SG skills he had always honed.

Wall has great size for the position and is a great athlete. Nolan has good to great size for the position and is a great athlete. Nolan is a better shooter and defender. Wall is probably a better passer. At least, he is a better passer in the full court run and gun. Most analysts say Wall needs to work on his half-court game. Both are great penetrators, and if Wall has an advantage in penetrating, it is probably statistically insignificant.

So, right now, Wall is probably a better passer/team runner than Smith. Do you think that might change this year? Nolan will have a year running a top notch college team against top notch competition. I think he will really improve this year.

Wall may be better as a team runner, but Nolan's vastly superior Defensive skills, and better shooting ability, negate that difference. Combined with Nolan's familiarity with the system after two years, and I don't see Wall, or anyone supplanting him. Heck, Nolan could well be one of the top PGs in the nation as a Jr.

A lot of this hinges on Gerald. If he returns, I don't see Wall cracking the starting lineup. Smith, Scheyer, Hendo, Singler, and Plum will start.

Should Hendo leave, it is possible for Wall to start. Scheyer would move to Hendo's spot, and the SG position would be up for grabs between Wall and Williams. Wall might have the edge, but who knows where Elliot will be next year? No guarantees there. Also, Scheyer will spend a lot of time at SG in such a scenario. Singler, Kelly, both Plums, Thomas, and Zoubs would largely eat up most minutes down there. Kelly and Singler could play big minutes at the three, really causing matchup problems. Heck, Scheyer might only play a few minutes at SF, because Duke would have the ability to go "big" at both forwards and the center.

Now, if Duke has a huge year and loses BOTH Hendo and Singler (highly unlikely, but possible), then Wall would probably play a lot next year.

My basic point was that I do not see Wall as a definite upgrade over any guard currently on our roster. He definitely won't play over Scheyer, and probably not over Smith. He might play over Williams, but Williams could really improve this year, so who knows?

riverside6
11-06-2008, 12:07 PM
one thing I haven't heard, was Wall at the game last night?

Kedsy
11-06-2008, 12:13 PM
Now, if Duke has a huge year and loses BOTH Hendo and Singler (highly unlikely, but possible), then Wall would probably play a lot next year.

My basic point was that I do not see Wall as a definite upgrade over any guard currently on our roster. He definitely won't play over Scheyer, and probably not over Smith. He might play over Williams, but Williams could really improve this year, so who knows?

If Wall comes to Duke, he will play a lot no matter who stays or leaves. He's the number one prospect in the country and one who the experts seem to think is college ready right now. Obviously every high school player has a lot to learn when he goes up to the next level, but the Derrick Rose and Eric Gordon type talents are going to play.

Also, I'm not sure why you think Wall would be taking Nolan's minutes. Nolan can obviously play either guard spot and possibly the 3 as well if Duke goes small. Plus he doesn't have to be an upgrade over anybody. If Wall is here and K goes with the lots-of-guys-play-25-minutes sort of rotation then both Wall and Nolan (and probably Williams, too) are going to play top minutes.

Bluedog
11-06-2008, 12:30 PM
one thing I haven't heard, was Wall at the game last night?

No, he canceled the visit. That's probably a good thing as he wouldn't have been impressed with Cameron last night apparently.

houstondukie
11-06-2008, 12:33 PM
SupaDave makes a valid point, one that I strongly considered throwing in to my original post.

I still question Wall's immediate inclusion into the starting lineup. Even if G goes pro, I still don't see a guaranteed starting lineup. Right now, Wall is all potential. And that potential is way up there. But he is not a perfect player. One of his negatives is that he plays out of control, another is his outside shot. And his defensive effort has been up and down.

He has spent his career playing PG, and has the skills down. Nolan hasn't. I think a lot of people are comparing Wall's high potential with what they remember of Nolan's Up-and-down Frosh year. A year where he spent relatively little time actually running the point. It is hard, and speculative, but we have to consider where Nolan will be next season.

Nolan will spend this year playing PG. He will learn from both the staff and Greg Paulus. Whatever faults Greg has, he is a font of valuable info and experience. Nolan will soak it up. And this is the first time Nolan has ever played PG extensively. Throughout HS he played SG. Part of this was because he was always on a team with a star PG. Part of this was that I think Nolan expected to grow more. He has huge feet for a kid his size. His dad was tall, and Nolan hit his current height relatively early. I think he expected to grow to 6-5 or better based on an interview from his Jr year. It never happened, so he had to add PG skills to the SG skills he had always honed.

Wall has great size for the position and is a great athlete. Nolan has good to great size for the position and is a great athlete. Nolan is a better shooter and defender. Wall is probably a better passer. At least, he is a better passer in the full court run and gun. Most analysts say Wall needs to work on his half-court game. Both are great penetrators, and if Wall has an advantage in penetrating, it is probably statistically insignificant.

So, right now, Wall is probably a better passer/team runner than Smith. Do you think that might change this year? Nolan will have a year running a top notch college team against top notch competition. I think he will really improve this year.

Wall may be better as a team runner, but Nolan's vastly superior Defensive skills, and better shooting ability, negate that difference. Combined with Nolan's familiarity with the system after two years, and I don't see Wall, or anyone supplanting him. Heck, Nolan could well be one of the top PGs in the nation as a Jr.

A lot of this hinges on Gerald. If he returns, I don't see Wall cracking the starting lineup. Smith, Scheyer, Hendo, Singler, and Plum will start.

Should Hendo leave, it is possible for Wall to start. Scheyer would move to Hendo's spot, and the SG position would be up for grabs between Wall and Williams. Wall might have the edge, but who knows where Elliot will be next year? No guarantees there. Also, Scheyer will spend a lot of time at SG in such a scenario. Singler, Kelly, both Plums, Thomas, and Zoubs would largely eat up most minutes down there. Kelly and Singler could play big minutes at the three, really causing matchup problems. Heck, Scheyer might only play a few minutes at SF, because Duke would have the ability to go "big" at both forwards and the center.

Now, if Duke has a huge year and loses BOTH Hendo and Singler (highly unlikely, but possible), then Wall would probably play a lot next year.

My basic point was that I do not see Wall as a definite upgrade over any guard currently on our roster. He definitely won't play over Scheyer, and probably not over Smith. He might play over Williams, but Williams could really improve this year, so who knows?

Great post.

Many people thought that if Duke landed Kenny Boynton, he would start from day one. As good as Boynton is, no way he would of started over Jr. Nolan Smith, Sr. Jon Scheyer, and Sr. Gerald Henderson. He would need Henderson to go pro, and even then So. Elliot Williams could still start over him. Heck, I think even 5th yr Sr. Marty Pocius could hold his own against Fr. Kenny Boynton. I don't hear too much praise regarding Boynton's defensive skills and we all know Marty can score.

However, it is much more difficult to imagine a player like John Wall coming off the bench. Wall is not all-potential. He is a consensus top 1-2 recruit. Many believe he will be better than Derrick Rose, and that is saying a whole lot. Can you imagine Derrick Rose coming off Duke's bench?

But who would he start over?

You're absolutely right about Nolan Smith. I agree with you that after a year of experience running the point, he will be one of the best point guards in the nation by the time Wall arrives to college. Nolan starts.

I can't see Coach K using Sr. Jon Scheyer in a 6th man role again, even if he did well in that role. Jon is one of our "Big 3" and I'm surprised I haven't read any mention of him getting his #30 retired one day. NBA scouts think he has a chance to play in the league, and if he continues to improve and wins in March, it may happen. Jon starts.

Anyone who thinks Sr. Gerald Henderson is coming off the bench behind Fr. John wall is an idiot. Gerald starts.

This makes me think. Do we really have a shot of landing John Wall if Gerald does not go pro? I guess it wouldn't matter that much since we wouldn't need him with the guys we would have coming back.

riverside6
11-06-2008, 12:58 PM
No, he canceled the visit. That's probably a good thing as he wouldn't have been impressed with Cameron last night apparently.
my thoughts exactly.

gotham devil
11-06-2008, 01:32 PM
Great post.

Many people thought that if Duke landed Kenny Boynton, he would start from day one. As good as Boynton is, no way he would of started over Jr. Nolan Smith, Sr. Jon Scheyer, and Sr. Gerald Henderson. He would need Henderson to go pro, and even then So. Elliot Williams could still start over him. Heck, I think even 5th yr Sr. Marty Pocius could hold his own against Fr. Kenny Boynton. I don't hear too much praise regarding Boynton's defensive skills and we all know Marty can score.

However, it is much more difficult to imagine a player like John Wall coming off the bench. Wall is not all-potential. He is a consensus top 1-2 recruit. Many believe he will be better than Derrick Rose, and that is saying a whole lot. Can you imagine Derrick Rose coming off Duke's bench?

But who would he start over?

You're absolutely right about Nolan Smith. I agree with you that after a year of experience running the point, he will be one of the best point guards in the nation by the time Wall arrives to college. Nolan starts.

I can't see Coach K using Sr. Jon Scheyer in a 6th man role again, even if he did well in that role. Jon is one of our "Big 3" and I'm surprised I haven't read any mention of him getting his #30 retired one day. NBA scouts think he has a chance to play in the league, and if he continues to improve and wins in March, it may happen. Jon starts.

Anyone who thinks Sr. Gerald Henderson is coming off the bench behind Fr. John wall is an idiot. Gerald starts.

This makes me think. Do we really have a shot of landing John Wall if Gerald does not go pro? I guess it wouldn't matter that much since we wouldn't need him with the guys we would have coming back.

1) There is no way Scheyer is getting his number retired.
2) The big three is a misnomer: two are potential lottery picks, the other is not.
3) Kenny Boynton is an in-your-face defender. If you think he wouldn't have played a lot more than Pocius, you've got to actually watch these kids play before making ridiculous evaluations. Realistically, Pocius very well might be playing in Europe next year.
4) It is very possible that both Singler and Henderson won't be here next year. After Deng abandoned ship, Krzyzewski mentioned that henceforth he wanted the players to express their plans, so that they could plan accordingly.

Tim1515
11-06-2008, 01:34 PM
Great post.

Many people thought that if Duke landed Kenny Boynton, he would start from day one. As good as Boynton is, no way he would of started over Jr. Nolan Smith, Sr. Jon Scheyer, and Sr. Gerald Henderson. He would need Henderson to go pro, and even then So. Elliot Williams could still start over him. Heck, I think even 5th yr Sr. Marty Pocius could hold his own against Fr. Kenny Boynton. I don't hear too much praise regarding Boynton's defensive skills and we all know Marty can score.

However, it is much more difficult to imagine a player like John Wall coming off the bench. Wall is not all-potential. He is a consensus top 1-2 recruit. Many believe he will be better than Derrick Rose, and that is saying a whole lot. Can you imagine Derrick Rose coming off Duke's bench?

But who would he start over?

You're absolutely right about Nolan Smith. I agree with you that after a year of experience running the point, he will be one of the best point guards in the nation by the time Wall arrives to college. Nolan starts.

I can't see Coach K using Sr. Jon Scheyer in a 6th man role again, even if he did well in that role. Jon is one of our "Big 3" and I'm surprised I haven't read any mention of him getting his #30 retired one day. NBA scouts think he has a chance to play in the league, and if he continues to improve and wins in March, it may happen. Jon starts.

Anyone who thinks Sr. Gerald Henderson is coming off the bench behind Fr. John wall is an idiot. Gerald starts.

This makes me think. Do we really have a shot of landing John Wall if Gerald does not go pro? I guess it wouldn't matter that much since we wouldn't need him with the guys we would have coming back.

I don't agree.

1st...I think K feels pretty sure Gerald is going pro. IMO it's the main reason he is going so hard after a 1 and done star player immediately after KB chose Florida.

2nd...Wall doesn't go somewhere unless he's extremely confident he will start or play around 30 minutes. His goal is the NBA...if he comes to Duke that means he knows the PT and probably starting is available.

Most likely...IMO...if Wall comes to Duke it goes...

PG - Wall
SG - Nolan
SF - Scheyer

with Elliot and Marty seeing good time.

jimsumner
11-06-2008, 02:13 PM
"The big three is a misnomer: two are potential lottery picks, the other is not"

Tell that to Mike Krzyzewski. He's the one who used the term.

Just curious would the term "big three" have applied to Jason Williams, Mike Dunleavy, and Carlos Boozer in 2002? After all, only two were lottery picks.

BTW, you're probably right about Scheyer's number not being retired. On the other hand, how likely was a retirement ceremony for Shelden Williams or Shane Battier after their sophomore seasons?

sagegrouse
11-06-2008, 02:41 PM
"The big three is a misnomer: two are potential lottery picks, the other is not"

Tell that to Mike Krzyzewski. He's the one who used the term.

Just curious would the term "big three" have applied to Jason Williams, Mike Dunleavy, and Carlos Boozer in 2002? After all, only two were lottery picks.

BTW, you're probably right about Scheyer's number not being retired. On the other hand, how likely was a retirement ceremony for Shelden Williams or Shane Battier after their sophomore seasons?

When I read the quote from K, I thought it was a not-so-subtle challenge to Greg and maybe Nolan to become a real star on the team. Not that K would ever use psychological ploys......................

sagegrouse

DU Band Prez 88
11-07-2008, 10:30 AM
considering we got to the national championship game with our last two one and done's (Maggette,Deng) I'm find with it. If Gerald and Kyler come back and we can get Wall we will be ready for another banner in Cameron.

We did get to the 1999 national championship game against U-Con with Maggette.
However, we only made the national semifinals against U-Con in 2004 with Deng.

Regardless of whether Wall attends Duke for one year, or not at all, I'm going with our current 08-09 team to have a great shot at getting to the Final Four in Detroit, where anything can happen...how about beating U-Con this time?

5 years is too long for a Duke Final Four absence!

Turtleboy
11-07-2008, 04:13 PM
5 years is too long for a Duke Final Four absence!Gosh, it seems like it was only last year.

gotham devil
11-12-2008, 12:33 PM
http://www.zagsblog.com/2008/11/12/latest-on-durand-scott-john-wall/

Zags coming through again with the info

Saratoga2
11-12-2008, 01:56 PM
If Wall comes to Duke, he will play a lot no matter who stays or leaves. He's the number one prospect in the country and one who the experts seem to think is college ready right now. Obviously every high school player has a lot to learn when he goes up to the next level, but the Derrick Rose and Eric Gordon type talents are going to play.

Also, I'm not sure why you think Wall would be taking Nolan's minutes. Nolan can obviously play either guard spot and possibly the 3 as well if Duke goes small. Plus he doesn't have to be an upgrade over anybody. If Wall is here and K goes with the lots-of-guys-play-25-minutes sort of rotation then both Wall and Nolan (and probably Williams, too) are going to play top minutes.

If Wall comes next year, I see him taking the significant number of minutes that Paulus currently has. Pocius and Williams can share with Scheyer and Henderson if both are still here. Makes us better and bullet proof at the same time. The following year if Wall was still here we have room for two guards in Thorton and if we get lucky Knight, since Scheyer, Hendersoon and Pocius will all be going.

footballfan2
11-12-2008, 09:54 PM
If we land Wall that would be an amazing coup. Reminds me when we stole Jason Williams from Rutgers after Nelson commited to UF (always UF!!). We need some backcourt help next year. Nolan Smith can't do it all and guys like Scheyer are not play makers in the true sense of being a PG.

Devilsfan
11-12-2008, 10:09 PM
A Coup? You forget we're Duke. A kid coming out of southeast Raleigh and having the chance to go through life with a Duke degree is a terrific opportunity. I hope he makes the right choice if he's lucky enough to be offered and play for the Coach of our nations Gold Metal Olympic Team.

Kedsy
11-12-2008, 10:37 PM
A Coup? You forget we're Duke. A kid coming out of southeast Raleigh and having the chance to go through life with a Duke degree is a terrific opportunity. I hope he makes the right choice if he's lucky enough to be offered and play for the Coach of our nations Gold Metal Olympic Team.

"Right choice"? "Lucky enough to be offered"? Do you live in fantasy land? It's declarations like these that make the rest of the world think Duke fans are arrogant.

This is the number one basketball prospect in the country. Who has, from everything I've seen and read, made it pretty clear he doesn't intend to get a degree from anywhere. So, while Duke may have a somewhat better academic reputation than the other schools he's considering, they're all pretty decent basketball programs. I agree with the original poster that Duke and its fans will be quite fortunate if we land the kid. Although, at the risk of "forget[ting] we're Duke," I believe it's a long shot.

jacalcio18
11-12-2008, 11:31 PM
Why is it that Mason Plumlee is yet to sign his LOI? Will he do this soon? Also, is John Wall a total shot in the dark or is he really considering coming here?

loran16
11-12-2008, 11:51 PM
I don't believe that people Mason's year sign LOIs till later in the year though I am unsure of this.

Regardless, with Miles here, there is little if anything to worry about.

BlueintheFace
11-13-2008, 12:17 AM
I don't believe that people Mason's year sign LOIs till later in the year though I am unsure of this.

Regardless, with Miles here, there is little if anything to worry about.

I believe Mr. Watson would disagree on this point.
http://bluedevilnation.net/?p=1294
Maybe he did sign the letter... I'm not sure what the deal is, but my guess is that we have no reason to worry.

Bob Green
11-13-2008, 05:07 AM
Nolan Smith can't do it all and guys like Scheyer are not play makers in the true sense of being a PG.

Jon Scheyer had the best assists/turnover ratio on the team last season. Through two games this season, he has dished out 10 assists against one turnover. He is arguably the best play maker on the team.

Oriole Way
11-13-2008, 05:27 AM
Jon Scheyer had the best assists/turnover ratio on the team last season. Through two games this season, he has dished out 10 assists against one turnover. He is arguably the best play maker on the team.

Completely agree. You could make a case for him being the PG for this team, but obviously he's better-suited as a SG with Smith and Paulus playing the point.

footballfan2
11-13-2008, 06:07 AM
Jon Scheyer had the best assists/turnover ratio on the team last season. Through two games this season, he has dished out 10 assists against one turnover. He is arguably the best play maker on the team.

sorry but disagree. Numbers don't tell the whole story. I believe Magic Johnson had a terrible Assist to TO ratio... yet he's one of the best PGs in history. We need a guy in the mold of Hurley and Jason Williams. Guys that can break down his defender, penetrate, score or dish. Imagine how much more potent your offense is if you have a guy who can do that.

RainingThrees
11-13-2008, 06:30 AM
If Nolan can learn to see the floor better and develop his passing game he can become that player.

footballfan2
11-13-2008, 08:09 AM
If Nolan can learn to see the floor better and develop his passing game he can become that player.

i'm not saying he can't but... who then? What if Smith fouls out or gets injured? Who's our PG back-up?

Wander
11-13-2008, 08:34 AM
Maybe Singler can play point guard too. :)

Jumbo
11-13-2008, 08:35 AM
i'm not saying he can't but... who then? What if Smith fouls out or gets injured? Who's our PG back-up?

Who was Hurley's backup on two national championship teams? Who was Jason Williams' backup his freshman year? There is absolutely no reason why Jon Scheyer can't handle the point, especially on a team with another point guard.

CMS2478
11-13-2008, 08:41 AM
This thread has gone from the John Wall recruitment to arguing who is the better pg Smith or Scheyer......SO to get in back on track.....The question that keeps getting ignored is whether or not John Wall is seriously considering Duke or are we seriously considering him. I guess due to the lack of responses to this question, nobody really knows at this point. :confused:

Kedsy
11-13-2008, 08:42 AM
i'm not saying he can't but... who then? What if Smith fouls out or gets injured? Who's our PG back-up?

Are you suggesting we need two Bobby Hurleys or Jason Williamses? Do you think someone of that skill level would be satisfied being a backup? If Nolan gets hurt or in foul trouble, I think Paulus and Scheyer (this year) or Scheyer and Williams (next year) will be more than adequate backups.

That said, I agree that having good handle and being a good passer doesn't necessarily make you a good point guard -- the guy in charge of making the offense run and initiating most of the plays. I think of Scheyer as a shooting guard who happens to also have ballhandling and passing skills.

CMS2478
11-13-2008, 08:44 AM
Are you suggesting we need two Bobby Hurleys or Jason Williamses? Do you think someone of that skill level would be satisfied being a backup? If Nolan gets hurt or in foul trouble, I think Paulus and Scheyer (this year) or Scheyer and Williams (next year) will be more than adequate backups.

That said, I agree that having good handle and being a good passer doesn't necessarily make you a good point guard -- the guy in charge of making the offense run and initiating most of the plays. I think of Scheyer as a shooting guard who happens to also have ballhandling and passing skills.

Oh well, I tried to get it back on track!!! :D

footballfan2
11-13-2008, 08:52 AM
Are you suggesting we need two Bobby Hurleys or Jason Williamses? Do you think someone of that skill level would be satisfied being a backup? If Nolan gets hurt or in foul trouble, I think Paulus and Scheyer (this year) or Scheyer and Williams (next year) will be more than adequate backups.

That said, I agree that having good handle and being a good passer doesn't necessarily make you a good point guard -- the guy in charge of making the offense run and initiating most of the plays. I think of Scheyer as a shooting guard who happens to also have ballhandling and passing skills.

we don't have even one player on the same level of Hurley or Jason Williams... how you end up assuming we will have two??

Kedsy
11-13-2008, 09:12 AM
we don't have even one player on the same level of Hurley or Jason Williams... how you end up assuming we will have two??

That would be from you. Someone said Nolan Smith could be that kind of player and you said, "i'm not saying he can't but... who then? What if Smith fouls out or gets injured? Who's our PG back-up?" And I thought that if Smith got to that level it would be somewhat unrealistic to think we should have a similarly skilled backup, which is what I said.

Bluedog
11-13-2008, 10:07 AM
This thread has gone from the John Wall recruitment to arguing who is the better pg Smith or Scheyer......SO to get in back on track.....The question that keeps getting ignored is whether or not John Wall is seriously considering Duke or are we seriously considering him. I guess due to the lack of responses to this question, nobody really knows at this point. :confused:

Well, from everything I've read, we haven't even offered him yet, so he can only seriously consider us to a certain level especially when he has received offers from several other schools. Of course, he is still considering us and I'd find it hard to believe that if he said to Coach K, "Ok Coach, I want to go to Duke", that we wouldn't offer him. But, with other schools fawning over him, it's not going to happen that he likes Duke that much more that he'd say Duke is in the lead when we haven't even guaranteed him a scholarship. Clearly, this isn't the only obstacle though....I think most people would agree Duke is still an underdog to get Wall even if we formally offer him as we got into the game pretty late. But, I would say, both sides are seriously considering each other given the quotes by Wall - just as Wall is seriously considering several other schools.

SMO
11-13-2008, 10:28 AM
i'm not saying he can't but... who then? What if Smith fouls out or gets injured? Who's our PG back-up?

So we need two Magic Johnsons. Coach K really needs to get on that.

RainingThrees
11-13-2008, 10:30 AM
Elliot will play both positions next year. Don't get me wrong I really want John Wall but we will make due if we don't get him.

roywhite
11-13-2008, 05:36 PM
Besides Kelly and Plumlee, who else are we courting for '09?

No inside info, but looks Duke and John Wall (highly rated PG from Raleigh) are checking each other out. I'd guess that's a longshot, but who knows.

Don't know of any other strong possibilities at this point.

The staff sometimes will look at a late bloomer who has a break-out senior season.

BD80
11-13-2008, 07:36 PM
No inside info, but looks Duke and John Wall (highly rated PG from Raleigh) are checking each other out. I'd guess that's a longshot, but who knows. ...

Dave Telep posted a bit on John Wall on his Scout blog:


... He's on his way to Memphis this weekend and dropping by Duke next week sometime. He's interested in officially visiting Miami and Baylor and he's been to Kansas officially and recently N.C. State unofficially. "To me, I'm not going to sign because I haven't taken all the visits I want to take. Why pick a school when you haven't given every school a chance?"

http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/810479.html

He has no intention of signing early, and why should he bind himself? Each school will hold a scholly for him - or schools like Florida will "create" a scholly. Given that, why not take the time and enjoy the ride?

I also read that he didn't come to Duke earlier this month because, in his words, it was a "dead" period. (recruiting wise).

If we want to improve our odds, isn't there another Clifton brother that we could hire? Oh wait, he (Brian Clifton) is a former licensed sports agent:

http://gary-parrish.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/view/6271764?tag=Dwon+Clifton

I am still suspicious because of his association with the Cliftons, but I still believe that our staff will thoroughly vet Mr Wall and his connection to the Cliftons before extending an offer.

Frankly, I still think the prospect is interesting. He sounds like his talent would fit in beautifully with the team, it remains to be seen if he will fit in with the personality of the team. Ryan Kelly should be able to help in recruiting and in providing the staff with a teammate's perspective of Wall.

yancem
11-13-2008, 07:49 PM
Well, from everything I've read, we haven't even offered him yet, so he can only seriously consider us to a certain level especially when he has received offers from several other schools. Of course, he is still considering us and I'd find it hard to believe that if he said to Coach K, "Ok Coach, I want to go to Duke", that we wouldn't offer him. But, with other schools fawning over him, it's not going to happen that he likes Duke that much more that he'd say Duke is in the lead when we haven't even guaranteed him a scholarship. Clearly, this isn't the only obstacle though....I think most people would agree Duke is still an underdog to get Wall even if we formally offer him as we got into the game pretty late. But, I would say, both sides are seriously considering each other given the quotes by Wall - just as Wall is seriously considering several other schools.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. We may not have offered him yet because he is on the record as saying he won't make a decision until spring. K doesn't like to offer more scholarships than he has or wants to give. I believe that he only wants to give out 1 more scholarship for the '09 class. If he offers Wall now then he lock his only scholarship to a player that not only may not except it bit won't make a decision until after everyone else may be taken. I'm sure that if K is truly interested in Wall, that he will make him feel as wanted as he need to.

Edouble
11-19-2008, 11:34 AM
I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. We may not have offered him yet because he is on the record as saying he won't make a decision until spring.

In the USA Today article linked on the front page of DBR, it says that Wall has said he will make a decision by the end of the early signing period (Nov. 12-19), which ends today. So is that information just completely wrong? I suppose he could decide, but not necessarily announce today, but that's very different than going on record as saying he'll decide in the spring.

Did USA Today just get that part completely wrong?

Bluedog
11-19-2008, 11:38 AM
In the USA Today article linked on the front page of DBR, it says that Wall has said he will make a decision by the end of the early signing period (Nov. 12-19), which ends today. So is that information just completely wrong? I suppose he could decide, but not necessarily announce today, but that's very different than going on record as saying he'll decide in the spring.

Did USA Today just get that part completely wrong?

Yeah, that's wrong. The article correctly reports it in the side box where it says, "he does not plan to make a decision during the early signing period," but they clearly left out the word "not" in the article itself. Bad mistake for USA Today.

watzone
11-19-2008, 12:07 PM
"I won't make a decision until spring. I'm still wide open" He told me this in a recent interview. This is factual and not rumor driven.

Edouble
11-19-2008, 12:12 PM
Thanks for the quick info. guys. :)

Diddy
11-19-2008, 12:28 PM
Once upon a time, in those days of yore (pre-internet), USA Today was a prime source of recruiting info for those of us outside the college coaching ranks. The Recruiters Handbook and PoopSheet were great, but hard to come by outside the Triangle. Thus, USA Today was a great source for recruiting info, because they would include a couple of blurbs a week about recruiting, especially during the summer camp season.

Not so today. The internet has all but obsoleted their coverage. Now they bank recruiting stories, often filing them for months until they have a slow day and need to fill some inches.

The main body of this story was probably written this past summer, when Wall repeatedly stated that he planned to make a decision in the early period. Now that he has tons of options, he wants to see where the best fit is. Which is smart. I am sure that USA Today plugged in the original story as is, and called Wall to get an update, which was included in the side box.

Long story short, be skeptical of the USA Today Recruiting stories. Most of it is out of date, or simply retreads from other sources.

Indoor66
11-19-2008, 01:04 PM
Once upon a time, in those days of yore (pre-internet), USA Today was a prime source of recruiting info for those of us outside the college coaching ranks. The Recruiters Handbook and PoopSheet were great, but hard to come by outside the Triangle. Thus, USA Today was a great source for recruiting info, because they would include a couple of blurbs a week about recruiting, especially during the summer camp season.

Not so today. The internet has all but obsoleted their coverage. Now they bank recruiting stories, often filing them for months until they have a slow day and need to fill some inches.

The main body of this story was probably written this past summer, when Wall repeatedly stated that he planned to make a decision in the early period. Now that he has tons of options, he wants to see where the best fit is. Which is smart. I am sure that USA Today plugged in the original story as is, and called Wall to get an update, which was included in the side box.

Long story short, be skeptical of the USA Today Recruiting stories. Most of it is out of date, or simply retreads from other sources.

Actuall, USA Today does not predate the Internet by that many years. It was founded in 1982 and became popular in the mid-80's. Recuiting news came mainly from newsletters and newspapers. The reality is that recruiting news was not as big a deal prior to the internet because the information was not readily available. The big debates and discussion were over signed recruits.

Vic Bubas, in the '60's was one of the first coaches to go after national recruiting. Prior to that, most out of state recruiting was done via "pipelines" that coaches developed, i.e. Duke had strong historical basketball ties to PA and Frank McGuire's ties to New York; Everett Case was from Indiana.

miramar
11-19-2008, 01:34 PM
It's amazing how much recruiting has changed in the last thirty years. Although the ACC had the pipeline, most conferences recruited locally. For example, according to Coach Wooden, "Probably 90 percent, or possibly more, of our time was spent evaluating youngsters right in the Los Angeles area, with the remainder elsewhere in California, the Northwest, and in other states." Of course, those recruits from out of state included key players such as Lew Alcindor (NY), Walt Hazzard (PA), and Henry Bibby (Franklinton NC).

gotham devil
11-19-2008, 02:23 PM
It's amazing how much recruiting has changed in the last thirty years. Although the ACC had the pipeline, most conferences recruited locally. For example, according to Coach Wooden, "Probably 90 percent, or possibly more, of our time was spent evaluating youngsters right in the Los Angeles area, with the remainder elsewhere in California, the Northwest, and in other states." Of course, those recruits from out of state included key players such as Lew Alcindor (NY), Walt Hazzard (PA), and Henry Bibby (Franklinton NC).
LOL
Minor neglect about the most dominating college player of all-time, Alcindor...or three titles

Also, he didn't mention his best recruiter, Sam Gilbert. ;)

Dukefan4Life
11-28-2008, 10:15 PM
I heard John Wall was at the game today with his family! Are we even recruting him? If not we should be!:D

detule
11-28-2008, 10:53 PM
I heard John Wall was at the game today with his family! Are we even recruting him? If not we should be!:D

Thanks for the note that he was/might have been at the game - wish he was there on a day other than thanksgiving but I am sure he liked what he saw in terms of basketball at least. I guess we must be recruiting him - hence the thread ;)

bludvlman
11-29-2008, 01:05 AM
Can he play the 2 guard? I'm thinking if he does come to Duke he will want to start and get a lot of pt but with Smith emerging no way he isn't the starting pg next year.

CameronCrazy'11
11-29-2008, 01:25 AM
Can he play the 2 guard? I'm thinking if he does come to Duke he will want to start and get a lot of pt but with Smith emerging no way he isn't the starting pg next year.

My impression is that Wall is way too good not to play at the point for as many minutes as he can play. I'm guessing that without Henderson it'd be Wall-Smith-Scheyer-Singler-Zoubek/Plumlee/Thomas starting, or if Henderson did return it'd be Wall-Scheyer-Henderson with Nolan playing 25-30 minutes as a 6th man.

Indoor66
11-29-2008, 08:08 AM
My impression is that Wall is way too good not to play at the point for as many minutes as he can play. I'm guessing that without Henderson it'd be Wall-Smith-Scheyer-Singler-Zoubek/Plumlee/Thomas starting, or if Henderson did return it'd be Wall-Scheyer-Henderson with Nolan playing 25-30 minutes as a 6th man.

Where do you think Henderson is going?

Houston
11-29-2008, 08:22 AM
My impression is that Wall is way too good not to play at the point for as many minutes as he can play. I'm guessing that without Henderson it'd be Wall-Smith-Scheyer-Singler-Zoubek/Plumlee/Thomas starting, or if Henderson did return it'd be Wall-Scheyer-Henderson with Nolan playing 25-30 minutes as a 6th man.

If we are lucky enough to get Wall, he will start from day one. From what I have read, Duke and Wall would be lucky to have each other.

If everyone returns next year, Jon will reprise his roll of hall of famer John Havlicek. Nolan's on the ball defense is too valuable to the team.

Charles Wicker
11-29-2008, 09:06 AM
where is Henderson going??? I haven't weighed in much on him, but: his development doesn't appear to match his potential. In games against tougher competition/defense last year, he had a tendency to fade. It's almost as if, he's not being motivated to play consistently at his full potential? Like the announcer said yesterday: he's a junior now, and he shouldn't be having the lapses, and the inconsistencies he's had in some games.

Maybe people think he should be emerging as a dominant, or an elite player. But from what he's demonstrated thus far; he's slightly above average, most of that is due to his athletic ability/potential. He needs someone to help him develop into an elite player; if that's what his capabilities project. Again, its like we have all of these undeveloped stars whose talent seems to ebb and flow. Whose pushing them? We may be missing Johnny more than we think. Another note; who does K have on the bench to tell him, "that was a bad move?" Maybe Johnny didn't either, but the point being: Coach looks lonely on that bench.

And he would serve the team, and the program better if he had a seasoned colleague/coach who has experience in all phases of the game, on and off the court. All of our assistants, have no coaching experience beyond Duke. That too is another thread. Right now, I expect G to continue doing what he has been doing. He's good, but can possibly be even better.

Devilsfan
11-29-2008, 10:32 AM
We need to sign Wall. We have missed on the five for years but our committee in the paint is finally stepping up. I hate when the state school in baby blue keeps getting rocket ships at the point and Wake gets a Paul. Our gaurds are very good but Wall can play in the League someday like Felton and Paul. And it would be nice to see him lead us to another NC after years of not even making the final four.

SushiChef
11-29-2008, 10:44 AM
Has anyone discussed/considered the possibility that if we get Wall to sign, Henderson sticks around for his senior year for a potential title run? I think that the signing of Wall could potentially entice Henderson in to staying for one more year and thus giving Duke unbelievable talent and depth.

MChambers
11-29-2008, 11:07 AM
Has anyone discussed/considered the possibility that if we get Wall to sign, Henderson sticks around for his senior year for a potential title run? I think that the signing of Wall could potentially entice Henderson in to staying for one more year and thus giving Duke unbelievable talent and depth.

Henderson will decide based on what's best for him. Also, I'd be shocked if Wall came to Duke if Henderson didn't go pro, because we'd have a very crowded backcourt.

hedgehog
11-29-2008, 11:07 AM
Has anyone discussed/considered the possibility that if we get Wall to sign, Henderson sticks around for his senior year for a potential title run? I think that the signing of Wall could potentially entice Henderson in to staying for one more year and thus giving Duke unbelievable talent and depth.

I think we would have an excellent shot to repeat if Wall comes even if Henderson left after this year.

Edouble
11-29-2008, 11:12 AM
I think we would have an excellent shot to repeat if Wall comes even if Henderson left after this year.

Repeat? I think you might be getting ahead of yourself.

hedgehog
11-29-2008, 11:34 AM
Repeat? I think you might be getting ahead of yourself.

Isn't that what this thread is about?

throatybeard
11-29-2008, 11:46 AM
Long story short, be skeptical of ... recruiting stories.

Edited for comprehensive accuracy.

gotham devil
12-01-2008, 12:38 PM
http://www.zagsblog.com/2008/12/01/coach-k-watches-wall-uconn-seton-hall-notes/

Coach K visits Wall

Indoor66
12-01-2008, 01:06 PM
http://www.zagsblog.com/2008/12/01/coach-k-watches-wall-uconn-seton-hall-notes/

Coach K visits Wall


Bad link

Madrasdukie
12-01-2008, 01:13 PM
http://www.zagsblog.com/2008/12/01/coach-k-watches-wall-uconn-seton-hall-notes/

Coach K visits Wall

Thanks for the link. It worked for me.

bigj4194
12-01-2008, 01:16 PM
Thanks for the link gotham!

houstondukie
12-29-2008, 04:18 PM
If everyone comes back...

PG N. Smith – Jr.
SG J. Scheyer – Sr.
SF G. Henderson – Sr.
PF K. Singler – Jr.
C B. Zoubek – Sr.

geraldsneighbor
12-29-2008, 04:21 PM
Unless K wants to move Jon back to 6th man, no. I can't see him sitting Nolan in favor of playing an unproven freshmen (regardless of talent) when you have a proven veteran. Now, I'm not sure how good Wall is as an off-guard or if Nolan would move to the 2.

That being said, I'd love to have the kid in Durham.

Bluedog
12-29-2008, 04:32 PM
Unless K wants to move Jon back to 6th man, no. I can't see him sitting Nolan in favor of playing an unproven freshmen (regardless of talent) when you have a proven veteran.

And that is (partially) why I think we're a longshot to land him...Also, the fact that we haven't given him a scholarship offer yet. ;) Having said that, 1.) I think it's certainly possible he'd start by mid-year; 2.) Even if he didn't start, he'd log a significant amount of minutes, 3.) I really hope that is our lineup next year!

geraldsneighbor
12-29-2008, 04:41 PM
I mean the other question is, not that these really are connected, but would you rather have Henderson and Singler back next year, or have John Wall for a year or two? We might not be able to have the best of both worlds, but by no mean will we be on the short end by not landing him considering the returnees we should have back as well as the addition of Mason and Kelly.

mo.st.dukie
12-29-2008, 04:46 PM
I was thinking about this the other day and I have a hard time believing Wall would start unless somebody ends up leaving early for the NBA. It seems like the coaching staff sees the PG spot as the position Nolan's future will be and it appears that Nolan agrees: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=3637300
I also don't see Wall starting in favor of two senior guards in Scheyer and Henderson. This may play a factor or it may not, I don't know exactly what kind of a person John Wall is but just by going off of what I've read in articles and on message boards (not a reliable source as we all know) Wall may not see this as a positive.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-29-2008, 04:55 PM
Obviously there's no way to know how he will develop, how others will develop, etc, so this is all wild speculation. That said, I think Wall brings something that Duke hasn't had since 2004: a legit PG who creates for others and can break down a defense (yeah, we've had this discussion before).

But don't forget that even if Nolan blows up as a PG, he still won't have a backup (other than Jon who is better-used in other ways) so there's a major spot for Wall no matter what happens.

I also think there's a very good chance one of G and Kyle go pro after the season. If so, I think we'll see Wall and Nolan in the backcourt with Jon, G/Kyle (whoever is here) and our 3 headed C monster.

If everyone is back: PG Wall, SG Nolan, SF Jon, PF Hendo, C Kyle looks a whole lot like 2001 to me. Honestly, I'm hoping 2010 is a year where we roll out waves of guys and can adjust our players based on matchups so "starters" change from game to game and lots of different lineups are used throughout the game.

Hey, I'm the guy who predicted that Boynton would not start for us, so I'm not given to anointing frosh as saviors just because they are fresh faces. But from what I've seen Wall is really unique and fills a role that we have desperate need for (either backing up or playing beside Nolan). If we lose anyone I think he's a lock to start (assuming he's as good as advertised). If everyone is back, I think he's got a shot and will certainly play starter's minutes by the time March rolls around. I really hope we get a chance to find out.

Carlos
12-29-2008, 05:01 PM
John Wall would start for Duke THIS year.

RainingThrees
12-29-2008, 05:10 PM
You guys are forgetting Elliot who can bring the ball up and can develop into a combo-guard in the future.

Oriole Way
12-29-2008, 05:18 PM
Of course he would start, he would be the most talented player on the team and the best NBA prospect in the country.

I could see him coming off the bench at the beginning of the season for a couple of games, but after that, he would be a starter.

I think we should start our best five, so Zoubek hits the bench, plain and simple. It would be an awesome problem to have. Like Bob mentioned, I think we are definitely a long shot to grab him, but you never know if K pulls out all the stops and Wall perhaps prioritizes playing close to his mother and playing for a chance to win it all in his one year.

Tim1515
12-29-2008, 05:18 PM
John Wall would start for Duke THIS year.

Ironically you might be right...and yet he might not next year. Greg was hurt going into this season and Nolan was unproven much like Wall would've been. Wall's immense potential and natural PG skills might have had him start.

Going into next year...Nolan has another year of experience and the expectations of playing PG.

Many people expected Elliot to start this year over Jon...yet his unstructured high school ball hurt him at Duke...does anyone really think Wall has ANY structure in high school?

He will have a ton to learn and the only way he comes to Duke is with the understanding that he "could" start but would very possibly not.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-29-2008, 05:19 PM
You guys are forgetting Elliot who can bring the ball up and can develop into a combo-guard in the future.

Elliot is going to be a great 2-3 guy. I'm as high on his potential as for anyone on the team. But his outside shot needs work and I haven't seen anything close to PG vision from him. He'll be an amazing scorer and a great rebounder from the 2-3 position. At PG next season we have Nolan and Jon and a big spot waiting for Wall (or Knight the year after) to fill it.

Indoor66
12-29-2008, 06:16 PM
Of course he would start, he would be the most talented player on the team and the best NBA prospect in the country.

WOW, another savior on the horizon.

houstondukie
12-29-2008, 08:42 PM
John Wall would start for Duke THIS year.

This season is a different story.

Nolan is only a sophomore this year and and it is his first season playing the point. If it were between Wall and Nolan this year, I think you are right.

But, by the end of this year and certainly by next year, Nolan will have a great handle on running the Duke offense. He already is a better defender than John Wall and I expect him to continue to improve and be one of the best PG in the country next season.

For those of you who simply post that John Wall will immediately start from day 1, then tell me who he starts over?

dukelifer
12-29-2008, 08:43 PM
Many people expected Elliot to start this year over Jon...yet his unstructured high school ball hurt him at Duke...does anyone really think Wall has ANY structure in high school?


Many people who have never seen Jon play, that is. Scheyer is among the most skilled players in the college game. Elliot is a great athlete but needs some time before he can make big contributions.

Kedsy
12-29-2008, 09:17 PM
For those of you who simply post that John Wall will immediately start from day 1, then tell me who he starts over?

I haven't seen Wall play, but based on what I've read and heard he has a similar skillset and level as last year's Derrick Rose, who I did see play. And if that player is on Duke's roster next year, he starts. Period. It's silly to suggest otherwise.

If Nolan and Jon and G and Kyle are all too good not to start (and they very well might be), then we'll start the game small (with Kyle guarding the other team's 5 until Brian or Lance is the first guy off the bench). Anyone who says different is thinking too much about positions. If your best five guys start, then a Rose-quality player is going to start. In the end, it's not going to matter anyway because all the truly worthy players are going to get their minutes by the end of the game.

If he's not as good as his press clippings, then all bets are off. But from what I hear he's the real deal, so if he's in Durham I expect to see him at the opening tap.

geraldsneighbor
12-29-2008, 11:05 PM
I agree. I really liked the comparison earlier if you got him, just start the best 5 like Duke did in 2001. Worked out pretty well then. If Duke is fortunate enough to land him, by all means you take advantage of having two top-tier point guards like Nolan and Wall. You think Duke is deep this year, with next years class and the possibility of Wall joining the fray, you would have think the battle for minutes will be insane. It's a problem I would love to have next October.

I do want to say, my looking ahead by no means diminishes my hopes for this seasons team. I think this is a good discussion during this time of year over the lowell that is the holiday break. It is just extremely exciting with or without Wall to see some of the needs on the inside being addressed and a team finally with experienced players. I'm very excited with the direction Duke is headed, not that I ever doubted where it would go...

Carlos
12-29-2008, 11:11 PM
For those of you who simply post that John Wall will immediately start from day 1, then tell me who he starts over?

Well, if Henderson returns then Wall would start over Smith. If Henderson doesn't return it would be a non-issue as the backcourt would be Smith, Scheyer, and Wall.

Doesn't mean Smith isn't a great player, only that Wall is an incredible player.

SilkyJ
12-29-2008, 11:15 PM
Many people who have never seen Jon play, that is.

I dont even think "many people" is fair. it was probably a handful of people and they were out of their minds. the comparison is not apt at all as elliot was a top 20 prospect in a weak class and wall is a top 3 prospect in a good class. nonetheless you just never know how its gonna shake out til they get to campus.

geraldsneighbor
12-29-2008, 11:27 PM
I dont even think "many people" is fair. it was probably a handful of people and they were out of their minds. the comparison is not apt at all as elliot was a top 20 prospect in a weak class and wall is a top 3 prospect in a good class. nonetheless you just never know how its gonna shake out til they get to campus.

It wasn't a knock on Jon as much as it was people not seeing E-Dub play enough in HS and understanding he wasn't where he has to be yet.

My question is does Singler or Hendo have to leave for Wall to come here? I'm still a bit worried about bringing in another potential 1 and done player. If we won a NC with him here I might be singing a different tune, but I don't want the perception on Duke becoming a place for rent-a-players like a Memphis. You still want to do things the right way, and I am sure K has that in mind. If I was somehow guaranteed to have Wall two years, I'd sign him up right now.

ice-9
12-29-2008, 11:33 PM
It's worth noting that Rose started slowly for Memphis -- it wasn't until the latter half (or maybe the last third) of the season that he began to show dominant form.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Wall go through a similar pattern. As skilled and athletic as he may be, the PG position is the most difficult one to transition into from one level to the next.

SilkyJ
12-29-2008, 11:42 PM
It wasn't a knock on Jon as much as it was people not seeing E-Dub play enough in HS and understanding he wasn't where he has to be yet.


I think it was both.

mgtr
12-30-2008, 12:20 AM
We have snickered that UNC often has too much talent, and that it is difficult to get players their PT. It would be just terrible if we had that same problem. :D
Does Wall view himself as a one and done? If so, he may well wonder about coming into a loaded Duke or UNC team. However, with Paulus graduating, and Duke relying on one good, but not great, PG, he may see the opportunity. Now before this comment starts a small riot, I realize that this season is young and that Nolan may develop into a terrific PG by year's end -- he just isn't there yet.

Edouble
12-30-2008, 12:44 AM
I agree. I really liked the comparison earlier if you got him, just start the best 5 like Duke did in 2001. Worked out pretty well then.

But in 2001, the best 5 were a pretty standard 1 through 5 (position-wise). I don't really understand what you're saying.

CameronCrazy'11
12-30-2008, 12:51 AM
But in 2001, the best 5 were a pretty standard 1 through 5 (position-wise). I don't really understand what you're saying.

If Duke just started it's best five regardless of position, wouldn't Scheyer have started over Thomas last year? Wall would almost certainly start over Nolan. Wall would be playing PG in the NBA next year if he could. Nolan probably won't be at that point yet.

geraldsneighbor
12-30-2008, 01:01 AM
That is true, but to clarify I meant Singler would be the 5. Obviously he would be out of position but I would start every game that way if I could if it meant it would get us Wall.

I think the chances of us gaining Wall and keeping Hendo seem slim though. I think I rather have G as a senior know his role then a one and done freshmen forcing Nolan to play the 2.

Edouble
12-30-2008, 01:21 AM
I guess you are his neighbor, so you must have some sort of inside scoop, but I am really suprised that there are people that still think that Gerald is going pro after this season based on what we've seen so far this year. :confused:

CameronCrazy'11
12-30-2008, 03:09 AM
I guess you are his neighbor, so you must have some sort of inside scoop, but I am really suprised that there are people that still think that Gerald is going pro after this season based on what we've seen so far this year. :confused:

That coupled with the fact that in interviews Gerald routinely says things like "over my next two years..." I think he seems to have a four-year mindset. The fact that next year's Duke team can be downright nasty is also an incentive to stay.

heyman25
12-30-2008, 04:31 AM
Unless Henderson starts scoring near 20 a game for the rest of the season,he is not a lottery pick, He doesn't have a great handle,its actually mediocre.How can he be in the NBA at the 2 guard when he is vulnerable to a steal every time he puts the ball on the floor.I guess he has the big upside,but there are many guards in the NCAA that shoot and handle the ball well. Gerald may have the best jumping ability in the nation,but he better turn it on from January to the end of the season. I think everyone returns except the graduating class. Pocius may leave if he has opportunities away from Duke.

geraldsneighbor
12-30-2008, 08:44 AM
I guess you are his neighbor, so you must have some sort of inside scoop, but I am really suprised that there are people that still think that Gerald is going pro after this season based on what we've seen so far this year. :confused:

Dude chill, I was just saying we would be fortunate to have everyone back we would be set for a great season regardless over a decision of an unproven freshmen...although he probably he is very good. I think G should stay and probably will since he is very raw with his all around game and would really benefit from a 4th season.

jv001
12-30-2008, 09:07 AM
I know that John Wall is a great talent, but to say he would start on this years team is a leap. I remember many posts before the season began that said E-Will would start and some even said that Olek would play many mins. Well we see how that has turned out. We don't know how high school kids will adapt to college bb. I certainly think John Wall would play many mins but I don't even know if he would start on next years team. If Nolan continues to improve he will start next year. If Zoubs continues to improve he will start next year. From what I'v heard from many Wall is a great talent but does not have much discipline with the ball as most truly great pt guards. I've not seen him play so I can't make that comment. IMO I don't think we land John Wall. Hope I'm wrong. Go Duke!

sagegrouse
12-30-2008, 09:37 AM
I know that John Wall is a great talent, but to say he would start on this years team is a leap. I remember many posts before the season began that said E-Will would start and some even said that Olek would play many mins. Well we see how that has turned out. We don't know how high school kids will adapt to college bb. I certainly think John Wall would play many mins but I don't even know if he would start on next years team. If Nolan continues to improve he will start next year. If Zoubs continues to improve he will start next year. From what I'v heard from many Wall is a great talent but does not have much discipline with the ball as most truly great pt guards. I've not seen him play so I can't make that comment. IMO I don't think we land John Wall. Hope I'm wrong. Go Duke!

Amen to all of the above. If freshman Wall is the best player on the Duke team, he will start and play 30+ minutes. But the last time a freshman was the best player on the team was JD -- when the cupboard was bare. Tough to be the best player on this Duke team as a freshman, considering the competition and what it takes to contribute to a K team on defense and offense.

In any event, finding 20-30 minutes for a phenomenal talent sounds like a nice problem to have as a coach. And given his management of the talent on the Olympic team, this should be a snap for K: "If Chris Paul could come off the bench for me, so can you."

sagegrouse
'Yeah, Elton was probably the best player on the 1997-98 team, but he played only 21 of 36 games (foot). Besides, Wojo, Trajan and Roshown were pretty good'

'And Happy New Year to all, before I forget'

Tim1515
12-30-2008, 10:11 AM
Amen to all of the above. If freshman Wall is the best player on the Duke team, he will start and play 30+ minutes. But the last time a freshman was the best player on the team was JD -- when the cupboard was bare. Tough to be the best player on this Duke team as a freshman, considering the competition and what it takes to contribute to a K team on defense and offense.

In any event, finding 20-30 minutes for a phenomenal talent sounds like a nice problem to have as a coach. And given his management of the talent on the Olympic team, this should be a snap for K: "If Chris Paul could come off the bench for me, so can you."

sagegrouse
'Yeah, Elton was probably the best player on the 1997-98 team, but he played only 21 of 36 games (foot). Besides, Wojo, Trajan and Roshown were pretty good'

'And Happy New Year to all, before I forget'

Well not exactly true. You could make the argument that Singler was the best player on last year's team...and he saw a ton of minutes and started from day 1.

The difference there however was the obvious need for him to start because of the players on our team.

I'm shocked to hear people already giving Wall the starting PG spot. Sure there is a lot of talent...much like E-Will this year though. Wall is fast but how many turnovers do you expect? He's an average shooter and we don't know much about his defense. If i had to guess i would say he gets an above average amount of steals and blocks for a PG but probably doesn't play structured defense (required at Duke).

I believe Wall's high school team is something like 6-5. How can a player so dominant that he would start year 1 at Duke over a talented junior in Nolan Smith not be able to lead his high school team to a better record?

sagegrouse
12-30-2008, 11:02 AM
Well not exactly true. You could make the argument that Singler was the best player on last year's team...and he saw a ton of minutes and started from day 1.

The difference there however was the obvious need for him to start because of the players on our team.

I'm shocked to hear people already giving Wall the starting PG spot. Sure there is a lot of talent...much like E-Will this year though. Wall is fast but how many turnovers do you expect? He's an average shooter and we don't know much about his defense. If i had to guess i would say he gets an above average amount of steals and blocks for a PG but probably doesn't play structured defense (required at Duke).

I believe Wall's high school team is something like 6-5. How can a player so dominant that he would start year 1 at Duke over a talented junior in Nolan Smith not be able to lead his high school team to a better record?


You and I are in total agreement on John Wall.

Re a freshman as the best player on a Duke team: I hadn't considered whether Singler was the best player on last year's team. A close call, but I might give the edge to Markiem who was 1st team All-ACC and had a slight advantage in statistics over Kyle. No question, though; Kyle was one of the best freshmen to play at Duke.

sagegrouse

ncexnyc
12-30-2008, 11:10 AM
I believe Wall's high school team is something like 6-5. How can a player so dominant that he would start year 1 at Duke over a talented junior in Nolan Smith not be able to lead his high school team to a better record?
What's the name of the kid that plays for Davidson?
Honestly, Wall would have to be a truly awesome talent to knock Nolan out of a starting job and Nolan isn't exactly a slouch as he gets better and better as the season progresses.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-30-2008, 11:13 AM
I believe Wall's high school team is something like 6-5. How can a player so dominant that he would start year 1 at Duke over a talented junior in Nolan Smith not be able to lead his high school team to a better record?

I'm not sure I've heard anyone suggest that Wall would start over Nolan. The lineups I've seen have them starting beside each other as complementary point guards a la JWill and Duhon (although neither is even close to that good quite yet). Wall doesn't have to be the best player on the team, just one of the best 5. I'm not sure he'll be that in December, but if he lives up to his rep he will be by March.

There are so many scenarios where Wall should start: if anyone goes pro, if Nolan gets injured or sick, if Kyle continues to bulk up and can play the 5 most nights, if he does bring PG skills that make him indispensable (and as much as I love what Nolan brings, he ain't a real PG yet), etc. But I think we can all agree that we have a major hole at PG beyond Nolan, so every second that Nolan isn't on the court there is unquestionably time for Wall.

Wall is a unique talent and he plays at a position that is vital and where we go 1 deep. If he is as good as advertised he'll get major minutes and have a very good chance to start. More than that he'll be an impact player for us on the court and a major recruiting coup for our reputation.

Tim1515
12-30-2008, 11:18 AM
What's the name of the kid that plays for Davidson?
Honestly, Wall would have to be a truly awesome talent to knock Nolan out of a starting job and Nolan isn't exactly a slouch as he gets better and better as the season progresses.

I'm not sure i understand this statement. Curry's high school team won state titles...they didn't start 6-5. Plus Wall does have another D1 player on his on team.

Tim1515
12-30-2008, 11:23 AM
I'm not sure I've heard anyone suggest that Wall would start over Nolan. The lineups I've seen have them starting beside each other as complementary point guards a la JWill and Duhon (although neither is even close to that good quite yet). Wall doesn't have to be the best player on the team, just one of the best 5. I'm not sure he'll be that in December, but if he lives up to his rep he will be by March.

There are so many scenarios where Wall should start: if anyone goes pro, if Nolan gets injured or sick, if Kyle continues to bulk up and can play the 5 most nights, if he does bring PG skills that make him indispensable (and as much as I love what Nolan brings, he ain't a real PG yet), etc. But I think we can all agree that we have a major hole at PG beyond Nolan, so every second that Nolan isn't on the court there is unquestionably time for Wall.

Wall is a unique talent and he plays at a position that is vital and where we go 1 deep. If he is as good as advertised he'll get major minutes and have a very good chance to start. More than that he'll be an impact player for us on the court and a major recruiting coup for our reputation.

I actually have heard people placing Wall in the starting lineup with Nolan, Jon and Hendo all staying. The reasoning was "he's just too good not to start".

The problem i see is that too many people are comparing him to Rose and assuming he's the same player...he's not. Sure there are a ton of similarities...both are quick (Wall might be quicker) both are average shooters at best...both are great athletes...etc.

One major difference...Rose's high school team maybe lost what 2 games all year. Rose was a leader...he had the intangibles you can't always teach. He could and would do whatever the team needed to win...EVERY night.

I'm not saying Wall doesn't have some of that...i've never seen him play...but his talents aren't off-setting his flaws which obviously Rose was able to do. I really think John would have a huge learning curve going to Duke...or even Memphis or Baylor...but at those programs he'd be given much more freedom and might "look" like a bigger star as a freshman. At Duke i truly believe he'd become a better player.

Jumbo
12-30-2008, 11:28 AM
Here's why this is a silly conversation. There is very little chance that both G and Wall will be on the team next year. Even if you think Duke has a good shot at Wall (and he hasn't even been offered a scholarship yet), it's still well below a 50% chance. And I'd put the odds of G turning pro at greater than 50%. We should be so lucky to have the problem of figuring out who starts. Just having one of them on the team next year would be nice.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-30-2008, 11:45 AM
I actually have heard people placing Wall in the starting lineup with Nolan, Jon and Hendo all staying. The reasoning was "he's just too good not to start".

Maybe I misunderstood, I thought you were saying that he would have to start "over" Nolan. He probably won't send Nolan to the bench, but he doesn't have to. He and Nolan can both start and I think by the end of the season that's exactly what will happen.


One major difference...Rose's high school team maybe lost what 2 games all year. Rose was a leader...he had the intangibles you can't always teach. He could and would do whatever the team needed to win...EVERY night.

I don't know enough about Wall's game to say if he has the intangibles to be a leader from day 1. I do know that he can be a floor leader in the sense of running the offense and creating shots for other players on a regular basis. Think about what Duhon did in '01. Battier was clearly the "leader" of the team but CDu and JWill ran the offense. I think Wall (PG) and Nolan (combo) could do something similar as creators even if they aren't the "leader" in the sense I think you are using the term.


I'm not saying Wall doesn't have some of that...i've never seen him play...but his talents aren't off-setting his flaws which obviously Rose was able to do. I really think John would have a huge learning curve going to Duke...or even Memphis or Baylor...but at those programs he'd be given much more freedom and might "look" like a bigger star as a freshman. At Duke i truly believe he'd become a better player.

I totally agree that Wall would be a better player at Duke. I think he has a great opportunity to find the sort of discipline as a player and as a man that he seems to have lacked early on and that he has benefited from recently. Frankly, just by choosing Duke he'd be making a major statement about his maturity and willingness to commit to hard work and a team concept rather than taking the lazy path at somewhere like Memphis.

I'm high on Wall as a player and for what he would mean to Duke. But I'm also really enthusiastic because I think this is a situation where Wall could really change his life for the better, not just hang his hat for a year at some basketball factory. Maybe I'm being presumptuous or naive, but I think Wall would have a fairly small learning curve on the court. I think his real education would be the growing up he could do under K. As I've said before, I really hope we get a chance to find out.

UrinalCake
12-30-2008, 12:23 PM
Regarding Wall starting over Smith, let's just say for the sake of argument that that does happen. What would that do to future recruits, to know that Coach K had essentially recruited over a player? I understand that no one is guaranteed playing time, and my understanding is that Coach K tells any recruit, no matter how talented, that he will have to earn his minutes... but still, knowing there is a chance they could be put in Smith's position could make someone not one to come to Duke.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-30-2008, 12:36 PM
I'm not sure how bringing in a freshman PG when we have 1 Sr. SG (Jon) one Soph 2-3 combo (Email) and one Jr. PG/SG combo (Nolan) is over-recruiting. Even if you don't think they can play side-by-side (which, for the tenth time, most folks think they can) is having a Fr. backup with a Jr. SG converted to PG really that rare or disrespectful? How would you describe UNC having Sr. Frasior, Jr. Lawson and Fr. Drew along with SG's Ellington, Ginyard & Green? Is that "recruiting over" hurting their recruiting? McDonald, Strickland, Bullock, and Marshall don't seem to think so.

Carlos
12-30-2008, 12:53 PM
I believe Wall's high school team is something like 6-5. How can a player so dominant that he would start year 1 at Duke over a talented junior in Nolan Smith not be able to lead his high school team to a better record?

That's a ridiculous argument. Word of God has Wall and one other highly rated guy in CJ Leslie. In addition they have another guy (Dezmine Wells) who is a borderline mid-major prospect as a sophomore. But outside of Leslie they have little size and they've been playing an absurdly aggressive schedule.

Their losses this season have been to:


Greensboro, NC Dudley - always one of the state's top programs and featuring sophomore PJ Hairston who is already drawing interest from major programs around the country.

Wilson, NC Greenfield - This is the game where Wall, Leslie, and Wells were all suspended. WOG lost by 33 points.

Elizabeth City, NJ St. Patrick - This is not one of the top programs in the State of NJ, it's one of the top programs in the country. Despite playing without UNC signee Dexter Strickland, St. Patrick still has Michael Gilchrist (a 6-6 SF and the #2 player in the 2011 class), Paris Bennett (another 6-6 guy who is heading to George Mason), and Kyrie Irving (2010 PG being targeted by a number of Big East programs).

Jacksonville, FL Arlington Country Day - All they've done is win 4 straight state championships. They feature 6-9 Wally Judge who is the #4 PF in the 2009 class and 6-4 Rodney McGruder. Both guys have scholarships to Kansas State. They also have another guy who is a mid-major target. (Note - ACD accounted for 2 of WOG's losses.)

Los Angeles, CA Westchester - Another major program with 6-6 Dwayne Polee (USC commitment) and two guys who are mid-major targets.


Wall is ranked no worse than 3rd by almost every service out there. Since the draft age limit went into place with the HS class of 2006 there has been exactly one guy in the top 3 rankings who didn't step in and start in his freshman year (Brandan Wright).

Tim1515
12-30-2008, 12:56 PM
I'm not sure how bringing in a freshman PG when we have 1 Sr. SG (Jon) one Soph 2-3 combo (Email) and one Jr. PG/SG combo (Nolan) is over-recruiting. Even if you don't think they can play side-by-side (which, for the tenth time, most folks think they can) is having a Fr. backup with a Jr. SG converted to PG really that rare or disrespectful? How would you describe UNC having Sr. Frasior, Jr. Lawson and Fr. Drew along with SG's Ellington, Ginyard & Green? Is that "recruiting over" hurting their recruiting? McDonald, Strickland, Bullock, and Marshall don't seem to think so.

While I don't disagree with this for the most part...a lot of the difference is that UNC and Duke recruit differently. That being said. Lawson is/was a star recruit. Frasor and Drew were both 4* recruits if i remember and considered high quality backups. Green is much more of a SF and while Ginyard was pretty highly recruited it was obvious by the time Ellington came around that he would start.

I think the hard part is that Nolan wants to be a PG...not a SG because he'll need to be a PG if he's going to make the NBA. Now does that mean K will be afraid to move him to SG in fear of making him angry...no...but it could indeed turn Nolan off and his game could suffer. I'm also not convinced Wall's style will mixed 100% with what K and Duke likes to do for 30 minutes a game...he'll have some learning to do and if he picks Duke then he'll obviously be ready to accept that...even if he starts.

K has typically given players the stage when he recruits them. At the same time someone like Tyler Thornton is different. I don't believe K is afraid to "recruit over" him because he'll be at Duke for 4 years and seems to already understand his furture role. Nolan...as a Junior...would most likely react different...same could be said for Jon and Gerald as seniors.

Duke seems to really need a PG for next year because Nolan will be our only one...whether it's Wall or more of a backup option...i hope the staff figures something out.

Duvall
12-30-2008, 01:00 PM
Wait, I thought we were worried because Duke was only going to have three wing players next year? Now we're overrecruiting? I'm so confused.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-30-2008, 01:14 PM
But why can't Wall and Nolan play side-by-side? In 2002 JWill (5.3) and CDu (5.1) both averaged over 5 assists per game. The year before JWill had 6.1 and CDu had 4.5. Having two great distributors in the backcourt isn't some crazy scheme, it's a very viable strategy that will make both guys look really good. JWill didn't have much trouble getting drafted even as the "SG" side of the combo as Nolan would be.

For recruiting, UNC and Duke have been recruiting differently as of late and it has showed on the court. Frasor was a McDonald's All American who was recruited by a ton of major programs and started as a freshman. Roy still had no trouble bringing in a superstar PG over him (and poor QT) the very next season. We have much less talent in the backcourt and a successful blueprint from using multiple guards in a variety of ways. Calling this "overrecruiting" is ridiculous on its face and strike me as UNC talking points to try to knock Duke.

Tim1515
12-30-2008, 01:36 PM
To be honest I don't want to act like i "know" what the coaching staff is thinking. I was surprised Duke stayed in with Kelly when we already had Mason and Hairston committed and landing him didn't scare either off. The staff very well might be trying to build more quality depth off the bench then they have in previous years...definitely not a bad thing...

Cell-R
12-30-2008, 01:42 PM
The only problem I would have with Wall from what i've heard about him so far is his attitude.

I have two friends (my age, Juniors) that played with him and watched him play at fivestar basketball camp this past summer.

In his scrimmage, there was a no dunking rule.

On the first possession, John Wall flies down the court and dunks over the man defending him just to show that he can.

Of course he is immediately removed from the game.

But he didn't care! He was putting on a show.

jv001
12-30-2008, 01:43 PM
We have much less talent in the backcourt and a successful blueprint from using multiple guards in a variety of ways. Calling this "overrecruiting" is ridiculous on its face and strike me as UNC talking points to try to knock Duke.

I try not to conceed anything to unc. Our backcourt may be a little behind unc's but I don't agree its "much less talent". Lawson is playing great ytd, but the season is new. He still has time to blow up the chemistry at unc. Go Duke!

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-30-2008, 02:13 PM
I try not to conceed anything to unc. Our backcourt may be a little behind unc's but I don't agree its "much less talent". Lawson is playing great ytd, but the season is new. He still has time to blow up the chemistry at unc. Go Duke!

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant less talent in terms of recruiting (fewer bodies) so more need to fill spots over the last few years. As of today I think backcourt talent is about even with Lawson/Drew a bit better than Nolan/Greg but Jon/Elliot a bit better than Ellington/Frasor.

In terms of Wall's attitude, I know there are concerns. From what I've read he had major issues in the past shortly after all his family troubles, but a strong father-figure coach appears to have done wonders for him. For me, these issues will be answered if Wall comes because a) the staff (with Kelly's input) will have signed off on him and b) he will have committed to a stern disciplinarian like K, suggesting that he wants to put those issues behind him.

Faison1
12-30-2008, 02:40 PM
While I don't disagree with this for the most part...a lot of the difference is that UNC and Duke recruit differently. That being said. Lawson is/was a star recruit. Frasor and Drew were both 4* recruits if i remember and considered high quality backups. Green is much more of a SF and while Ginyard was pretty highly recruited it was obvious by the time Ellington came around that he would start.

First of all, your statement about UNC and Duke recruiting efforts simply isn't true. We go after the exact same guys, especially since Roy has been there. We were after Brandon Wright, Marcus Ginayrd, Leslie McDonald, just to mention a few.....

This whole thread is getting tiresome. When I saw the topic pop up, I thought it might actually have some news regarding Wall......not the case, I guess.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-30-2008, 02:52 PM
First of all, your statement about UNC and Duke recruiting efforts simply isn't true. We go after the exact same guys, especially since Roy has been there. We were after Brandon Wright, Marcus Ginayrd, Leslie McDonald, just to mention a few.....

I think Tim was referring to quantity, not quality. For whatever reason, as of late, Ol' Roy has used more of a "shotgun approach" offering many, many recruits and looking to run 12-14 guys out for his fast-break style-game. K has tended to use the "sniper rifle" approach where he selects a few recruits and fields a team with fewer guys. Maybe that comes from necessity (academic for recruiting and recruiting failures for team size) but that has been the trend.

Faison1
12-30-2008, 02:58 PM
OK, sorry....maybe I flew off the handle a little too quick. My apologies to Tim.

Tim1515
12-30-2008, 03:34 PM
OK, sorry....maybe I flew off the handle a little too quick. My apologies to Tim.

No problem...and thanks for the clarification DevilCastDownfromDurham...that's exactly what i was trying to say.

I remember reading one a book about K early in his career. Early on he targeted a lot of guys (similar to Roy now) but really got burned on the recruiting trail. He decided to go to more of a "sniper rifle" approach and it landed him guys like Dawkins. He's followed that strategy for the most part ever since.

Maybe recruiting has changed and it does seem like K is taking a slightly different approach (already having 3 guys locked up for 2010).

That being said...K really pushes the "family" at Duke. It has some advantages...K is able to build a relationship with 1 guy and know he's the one they want. It makes Duke's offers to guys more meaningful. The downside is if he misses...there isn't usually a ready backup plan.

It's easy to look at UNC's approach and think Roy knows best. As stated by DevilCastDownfromDurham he uses a shotgun...and it has been very successful...but think about the luck. Using this approach he landed Lawson and Tyler...yet if one of the other players would've said yes first, they might not be at UNC...definitely some luck involved.

You can also look at Mason and Kelly. There is no guarantee they will be better then the Wears...but UNC could've potentially landed both of them instead, had they not offered 20 guys.

using this approach UNC will always have a ton of talent...probably more then Duke. They are less likely to be empty at a position like Duke has been inside. UNC will, however, miss on big time players because of this approach down the road and sometimes get locked into guys that get passed talent wise over a high school season.

houstondukie
12-30-2008, 03:43 PM
Wait, I thought we were worried because Duke was only going to have three wing players next year? Now we're overrecruiting? I'm so confused.

That is still possible. If Henderson goes pro and Marty Pocius does not come back for his 5th season of eligibility, then Duke only has three guards on the roster for next year: Smith, Scheyer, and Williams.

We're not overrecruiting in terms of quantity of players, but perhaps we are overrecruiting in terms of quality of player. Next year, we won't need John Wall but who wouldn't want him (assuming Coach K wants him too).

Next years team, even without Henderson and Pocius, will be very good but if we want to be national championship caliber, we could use more depth at guard. However, the argument can be made that Singler is capable of playing the 3, which would also give more minutes to Plumnee and Kelly at the 4.

jv001
12-30-2008, 03:47 PM
You can also look at Mason and Kelly. There is no guarantee they will be better then the Wears...but UNC could've potentially landed both of them instead, had they not offered 20 guys.

using this approach UNC will always have a ton of talent...probably more then Duke. They are less likely to be empty at a position like Duke has been inside. UNC will, however, miss on big time players because of this approach down the road and sometimes get locked into guys that get passed talent wise over a high school season.

Yes unc may get more talent, but we have Coach K and they have ole roy. I had rather have Coach K with his recruits than have roy with his. Go Duke!

TaiAdmiral
12-30-2008, 04:21 PM
I'm a bit confused. I realize that John Wall is a phenomenal talent, but is this thread really going anywhere? I mean, in perfect honesty, I doubt he'll even come to Duke next year, as much as I'd love to have him here. From what I know, he's good enough to go straight to the pros after a year in college. He's giving Memphis a good look because their program does a good job developing star talent for immediate transition into the NBA (Derrick Rose), and their offensive game plan (fast paced, fast break/transition style offense) allows for flashy guys like Wall to really shine. Surely he knows all of this, and he also knows that the system here at Duke is probably not the best fit for his style of play. However, I have heard that he'd like to stay close to home because of his mother's health, which is why NC State is high on his radar too. Another option would be going to an up-and-coming program like Baylor, which would allow him to put up gaudy numbers right off the bat.

So being realistic, do we actually have a decent shot at getting Wall at all? What incentives would he have to come here, if he's only planning to jump straight to the pros? Like we've said before, he's not even guaranteed to start, and he's probably heard (from Calipari, I'm sure) that he has the potential to be the next Derrick Rose at Memphis. I mean sure, there's Coach K here at Duke, but does it really matter if he's only going to stay for a year?

Tim1515
12-30-2008, 04:30 PM
I'm a bit confused. I realize that John Wall is a phenomenal talent, but is this thread really going anywhere? I mean, in perfect honesty, I doubt he'll even come to Duke next year, as much as I'd love to have him here. From what I know, he's good enough to go straight to the pros after a year in college. He's giving Memphis a good look because their program does a good job developing star talent for immediate transition into the NBA (Derrick Rose), and their offensive game plan (fast paced, fast break/transition style offense) allows for flashy guys like Wall to really shine. Surely he knows all of this, and he also knows that the system here at Duke is probably not the best fit for his style of play. However, I have heard that he'd like to stay close to home because of his mother's health, which is why NC State is high on his radar too. Another option would be going to an up-and-coming program like Baylor, which would allow him to put up gaudy numbers right off the bat.

So being realistic, do we actually have a decent shot at getting Wall at all? What incentives would he have to come here, if he's only planning to jump straight to the pros? Like we've said before, he's not even guaranteed to start, and he's probably heard (from Calipari, I'm sure) that he has the potential to be the next Derrick Rose at Memphis. I mean sure, there's Coach K here at Duke, but does it really matter if he's only going to stay for a year?

He likes Memphis because of Rose being his idol.
He likes Baylor and they got one of his handlers a job at the school
He likes NC State and Duke because of being close to home.

He himself stated that he'd like to be one and done. One thing he said he liked about Sidney Lowe was his understanding of the NBA (that was before Duke ever entered the picture). Obviously K now has some strong ties to the NBA also.

If i had to guess...it comes down to Duke, Baylor and Memphis...with Baylor being the heavy favorite. The only way Wall comes to Duke is if he indeed did grow up a lot...or plans too...and hopes Duke's image will help his. He also knows Duke will get a ton of exposure.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-30-2008, 04:31 PM
I've been a critic of the "sniper rifle" approach, and it's easy to be critical after a spectacular meltdown like the Deng/Hump/Liv fiasco; losing 3 signed top-5 players within a few months of each other would cripple any program.

That said, I think there are two factors that have made the sniper rifle approach look much worse and the shotgun approach look much better:

a) Hans significantly overachieving at the same time as Josh underperformed. If both of those guys lived up/down to their rankings I think Duke is ahead of UNC over the last 4 seasons.

b) We've basically been running the program with half (or less) of K since 2004. I don't regret the decision, it may pay dividends in the long run, and I totally understand why it would be a no-brainer for K. But the Olympics commitment left our recruiting, our team/player development, and our in-game stuff out to dry in a major way. Not having K around to meet kids and build those relationships hurt us. A lot. To strain a metaphor well beyond the breaking point, without his steady hand the sniper rifle just wasn't on target.

Getting back to Wall and next season, I think he's more of a need than some folks are suggesting. As of now we have 1 guy who can play the point next season, and he's a natural 2 trying to learn a new role. 30 minutes of Nolan with 10 of Jon wouldn't be terrible, but it wouldn't be great either.

As we saw when Jon took that role before, it really impacts the other aspects of your game. If we have any health issues we are sunk. We'll be in danger every time Nolan get 2 fouls in a half, which will really hurt his D. Another serviceable PG is, IMO, a need for us. And John Wall is much more than serviceable. He's clearly the best PG and arguably the best player in his class. He simply has vision and creative ability that no other guys on our roster have.

We'll be a very good team next year no matter what. We've got some good depth, a strong recruiting class, and, as hustondukie noted, K's a pretty good coach, especially when we have his full attention. I don't think we'll have any idea about Wall for several months, so this is all idle speculation, but I think our team makes a quantum leap if he decides to join the party.

geraldsneighbor
12-30-2008, 04:33 PM
Here's why this is a silly conversation. There is very little chance that both G and Wall will be on the team next year. Even if you think Duke has a good shot at Wall (and he hasn't even been offered a scholarship yet), it's still well below a 50% chance. And I'd put the odds of G turning pro at greater than 50%. We should be so lucky to have the problem of figuring out who starts. Just having one of them on the team next year would be nice.

I haven't really seen any draft projections (all be it December) having G top 20. Also, him and his dad should know, G has alot of room to improve and it is not like other kids who have to leave for the money. Gerald's dad isn't to bad off and is still very prominent in the basketball community (Sixers Post-Game Analyst in Philly) and should have enough of a grasp on the situation to know G would only benefit in staying for a senior year.

Also, I really haven't seen anywhere but how long does Wall intend on staying. NBA Draft.net (I know, consider the source) but is the projected top-pick in 2010. I just don't know if it would be in our best interest to be so hung up over a 1 or 2 year player, when we have started to have success with 3 and 4 year players.

geraldsneighbor
12-30-2008, 04:38 PM
I've been a critic of the "sniper rifle" approach, and it's easy to be critical after a spectacular meltdown like the Deng/Hump/Liv fiasco; losing 3 signed top-5 players within a few months of each other would cripple any program.

That said, I think there are two factors that have made the sniper rifle approach look much worse and the shotgun approach look much better:

a) Hans significantly overachieving at the same time as Josh underperformed. If both of those guys lived up/down to their rankings I think Duke is ahead of UNC over the last 4 seasons.

b) We've basically been running the program with half (or less) of K since 2004. I don't regret the decision, it may pay dividends in the long run, and I totally understand why it would be a no-brainer for K. But the Olympics commitment left our recruiting, our team/player development, and our in-game stuff out to dry in a major way. Not having K around to meet kids and build those relationships hurt us. A lot. To strain a metaphor well beyond the breaking point, without his steady hand the sniper rifle just wasn't on target.

Getting back to Wall and next season, I think he's more of a need than some folks are suggesting. As of now we have 1 guy who can play the point next season, and he's a natural 2 trying to learn a new role. 30 minutes of Nolan with 10 of Jon wouldn't be terrible, but it wouldn't be great either.

As we saw when Jon took that role before, it really impacts the other aspects of your game. If we have any health issues we are sunk. We'll be in danger every time Nolan get 2 fouls in a half, which will really hurt his D. Another serviceable PG is, IMO, a need for us. And John Wall is much more than serviceable. He's clearly the best PG and arguably the best player in his class. He simply has vision and creative ability that no other guys on our roster have.

We'll be a very good team next year no matter what. We've got some good depth, a strong recruiting class, and, as hustondukie noted, K's a pretty good coach, especially when we have his full attention. I don't think we'll have any idea about Wall for several months, so this is all idle speculation, but I think our team makes a quantum leap if he decides to join the party.


Very good point. 2007 we saw Jon have to play more PG and that takes away from his offensive strengths. Hopefully by that point Nolan will have adjusted and he will be a PG, not just a kid learning to do it.

I also wouldn't be stunned if Duke can't land Wall, they go to E-dub running the point in spots being that he is a combo guard, similar to what Nolan was when we got him.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
12-30-2008, 04:53 PM
Very good point. 2007 we saw Jon have to play more PG and that takes away from his offensive strengths. Hopefully by that point Nolan will have adjusted and he will be a PG, not just a kid learning to do it.

I also wouldn't be stunned if Duke can't land Wall, they go to E-dub running the point in spots being that he is a combo guard, similar to what Nolan was when we got him.

We may do that, but I'm not sure Email is ready for any serious time at the PG spot. I love his rebounding and scoring and I'm afraid we'll do more harm to that than we'd like.

I think Duke has more going for Wall than just location. We've on national TV all season, we put guys in the NBA as well or better than anyone in the nation, we have one of the top hospitals in the nation for his mom, and I think it would be great for his development and his rep. He'd also be stepping into a situation where he could be the starting PG for a strong title favorite. Baylor, State, etc don't have most of those things.

Time will tell, Knight is still an amazing PG in his own right (although I'm getting pretty gun shy about going up against Billy D after losing our entire class to him this year). Obviously we'll be alright no matter what he, or any specific recruit decides. But let's not play it off like Wall is some luxury recruit that wouldn't give us anything we don't already have.

Devilsfan
12-30-2008, 07:02 PM
Let's hope a new scope was under the sniper's tree at Christmas. He may need it to bag a prize buck like Wall.

jacalcio18
01-05-2009, 07:20 AM
John Wall attended the VT game last night. I sat in the grad student section and he sat right behind the bench. After the game, Carawell appeared to be taking him towards the locker room area. Does anyone have any inside information as to whether we offered him a scholarship last night or further details?

ice-9
01-05-2009, 07:56 AM
Here's a possible scenario...

1. The 2009 draft is one of the weakest in years, with no outstanding freshmen and few outstanding upperclassmen.

2. Duke wins the national championship (squashing UNC in the final game of course!).

3. Four players (Kyle, Jon, Gerald and Nolan) averaged double digits in a dominating display of basketball worthy of a champion.

4. All of a sudden people are talking about Duke players the way they did Rose, Curry and Kansas players last year when they put on a show in the NCAA tournament.

In the above scenario, who is at risk of leaving early? If Gerald lives up to our preseason hopes, we can just about mark him as gone. Will Kyle stay if he is a certain top 10 pick? Heck, will Jon or Nolan stay? Especially if Gerald and Kyle leave?

As long as Wall can be a good fit in terms of skills and chemistry, we should try our best to get him, because if the worst case scenario happens and four of our five starters (not to mention Greg, David and possibly Marty) leave we would be in big trouble.

While I acknowledge that this is not a likely scenario, it is certainly a plausible one.

Kedsy
01-05-2009, 10:59 AM
In the above scenario, who is at risk of leaving early? If Gerald lives up to our preseason hopes, we can just about mark him as gone. Will Kyle stay if he is a certain top 10 pick? Heck, will Jon or Nolan stay? Especially if Gerald and Kyle leave?

While I acknowledge that this is not a likely scenario, it is certainly a plausible one.

Sorry, but I don't think the idea that either Jon or Nolan will leave early gets anywhere close to plausible. There's no chance of it.

That said, I agree with your point that we should heavily recruit Wall.

jv001
01-05-2009, 11:06 AM
Maybe this time we will get a pleasant surprise in this recruitment as I see we are not the favorites for Wall.

Oriole Way
01-05-2009, 11:17 AM
Maybe this time we will get a pleasant surprise in this recruitment as I see we are not the favorites for Wall.

I know Baylor has been considered in the lead for quite some time, but are you referring to a recent recruiting article?

It's somewhat surprising we've heard so little about Duke's involvement with him, even though Collins incurred a recruiting violation watching him play and that Wall was apparently at the game last night.

SilkyJ
01-05-2009, 11:40 AM
Here's a possible scenario...
While I acknowledge that this is not a likely scenario, it is certainly a plausible one.

Have to agree with Kedsy. There is ZERO chance Jon leaves early and a .01% chance nolan does.

Diddy
01-05-2009, 12:08 PM
First, I highly doubt either Jon or Nolan would leave this year. As for Jon, I think there is almost Zero chance of him leaving. For Nolan to leave, it would almost guarantee a National championship, with him having played a huge role all tourney long.

And if we win a NC, the guys can leave. They owe the program nothing else. Everybody would love to repeat, but we can't be sad, angry, or dissappointed if a player leaves while they are hot, after taking the team to the pinnacle of college basketball.

Now, G and/or Kyle could leave.

As for G, he is the most attractive to NBA scouts. First and foremost, he has the size and athleticism. He is almost a prototypical 2 guard in the league. From day one he would be one of the more athletic players in the league. On top of that, he already plays great Defense, and does so at a position of need on the defensive end. As for offense, he does need a little work. His shooting isn't great, but neither is it horrible. And it is something he has steadily improved, so there is no reason to think he won't continue to improve and be a great shooter within the next 2-3 years. As for his dribbling, it is deceptively good. Yes, he is weak going to his left. But he is nigh on to impossible to stop going to his right. Like his shooting, with work his left will improve. He is already a great rebounder. If he continues his strong play, the lottery is a high possibility. I mean, how great will G look in individual workouts for NBA teams?

As for Kyle, I love his all arround game. But I still question if he has the athleticism to really wow the NBA scouts. But he is darn close. I see him needing another year to solidify his skills and hone his body to MAXIMIZE his draft appeal. But, with a strong stretch run, he could go.

As for Wall, I think his recruitment may be clearing up.

At NCSU, that program is starting to stink. They aren't very good, and next year may not have that many weapons for Wall to work with. A true PG needs weapons to excell, and NCSU simply doesn't have that many. Even with Wall, they might not be a great program.

By that logic, Baylor would seem to fade, but no. Baylor is the clear leader for a kid named Latavious Williams, a five star Combo forward (but who may have academic concerns). They have a few wings comming in next year. But, Baylor is a long way away, and they don't have a high media profile. Wall would change that, some, but Baylor still wouldn't play on TV a lot.

At Memphis, there would be more weapons. Sort of. Memphis graduates some of their best players, and they have no three point shooters now, nor any incomming. Wall will find the lane clogged in Memphis next year. Also, imho, there is a developing problem for Wall at Memphis. Memphis's One and done this year, named Tyreke Evans, doesn't look so one and done anymore. He is a 6-4 ish player who cannot shoot the three, and is less explosive than previously believed. He may be back next year. And he dominates the ball. Some would argue that Wall would help him, but an equal number could argue that Wall will have serious comp for being the lead guard.

Duke is close to home, an iconic program, and we will have weapons next year. Wall knows Kelly, and has played against Plumlee. Further, Wall's "rep" could help Duke. There were a few eyebrow raisers as far as conduct in Wall's past. Nothing major at all, but NBA scouts will keep a close eye on him next year. Minor behavioral problems can explode when a kid moves to a NBA city and starts cashing NBA paychecks. Playing at Duke would erase those concerns from Day 1 on campus. Coach K is widely acknowledged to be a stellar judge of character. His prickliness on the subject has probably hurt Duke in the past by not taking chances on players that turned out OK. But every NBA scout knows that if Duke takes a kid, then the Kid is OK. At Duke, the scouts would only watch him play basketball. At Memphis or Baylor, his every move would be closely scrutinized.

If G leaves (as I have long expected, esp now that his play is starting to really pop), then there is a clear spot for Wall. Williams needs another year as a backup, essentially taking on the roll now filled by Paulus, and Jon would move to G's position. Wall and Nolan would work the Guard slots, and Duke would really roll.

I gotta say, I like our chances.

Kedsy
01-05-2009, 12:45 PM
If G leaves (as I have long expected, esp now that his play is starting to really pop), then there is a clear spot for Wall. Williams needs another year as a backup, essentially taking on the roll now filled by Paulus, and Jon would move to G's position. Wall and Nolan would work the Guard slots, and Duke would really roll.

I will be very surprised if Elliot Williams is our backup point guard next year. First, he isn't really a point guard; second, with his athleticism and a year of experience he should be in line for significant minutes next year. Finally, since this year Paulus is sort of the designated shooter, based on what we've seen Elliot won't fill that role. If anything, if G leaves Elliot will slide into his role, although he may not get quite as many minutes as G does.

But none of that should affect Wall. If he's anywhere close to as good as his press, there will be a place for him even if G and Kyle both stay.

jv001
01-05-2009, 02:12 PM
I know Baylor has been considered in the lead for quite some time, but are you referring to a recent recruiting article?

It's somewhat surprising we've heard so little about Duke's involvement with him, even though Collins incurred a recruiting violation watching him play and that Wall was apparently at the game last night.

I believe these two lead: Baylor because of AAU coach being on the staff and Memphis because they tell Wall he is another Rose and they play the style of bb he likes. He has point guard skills galore but he does turn the ball over and I think that's because of the style of bb he plays. This style will not translate well for Coach K and I think he knows this. However the best thing for Wall is come to Duke. He will get the coaching he needs for the NBA and he will be around great student athletes. Go Duke!

Tim1515
01-05-2009, 02:54 PM
At NCSU, that program is starting to stink. They aren't very good, and next year may not have that many weapons for Wall to work with. A true PG needs weapons to excell, and NCSU simply doesn't have that many. Even with Wall, they might not be a great program.


I believe State already has a commitment from Wall's most talented high school teammate (could be wrong). I also believe State is in the final 3 for Derrick Favors. The two of them were on campus together (i believe) for an official visit and talked extensively about playing together. If Cosner stays and the two of them come...that's all of a sudden a very talented team.

Also. Memphis has Xavier Henry who is considered an extremely good shooter.

Diddy
01-05-2009, 03:09 PM
I will be very surprised if Elliot Williams is our backup point guard next year. First, he isn't really a point guard; second, with his athleticism and a year of experience he should be in line for significant minutes next year. Finally, since this year Paulus is sort of the designated shooter, based on what we've seen Elliot won't fill that role. If anything, if G leaves Elliot will slide into his role, although he may not get quite as many minutes as G does.

But none of that should affect Wall. If he's anywhere close to as good as his press, there will be a place for him even if G and Kyle both stay.

I didn't mean that Williams would fill Paulus's exact role, merely that he would play that approximate number of minutes.

Next year, should Wall attend Duke, Either he, Smith, or Jon would be the primary ball handler at all times. Barring foul trouble, one of those three would be in the game at all times when the outcome is in question. Wall would probably be the primary PG, then Smith, and then Jon. For instance, when Wall comes out, E-will would come in and Nolan would be the primary handler.

I like E-Will, whose potential is as high as anyone on the team. His athleticism and rebounding will earn him key minutes next year. A dedication to D will help his cause. But, to be honest, his basketball skills are behind where I thought they would be this year. I am sure they will improve next year, but he still would not necessarily be a Offensive dynamo, even next year. But he will play, a lot. Remember, we are not just losing Paulus (and Hendo, for the sake of this argument). We are also losing McClure. I feel confident that Kelly and the Plums will more than make up for any minutes McClure spends guarding opposing bigs. But, this year, he also spends some key minutes guarding opposing team's wing players. Right now we have THREE key wing defenders in Jon, Hendo, and McClure. Nolan and Kyle can do it in a pinch, but Kyle will not spend huge minutes chasing a 6-5 ish player, as both he and Nolan are better suited to guarding other types of players. Next year, we could lose two of our primary wing defenders.

E-Will will get Paulus's minutes (not his roll) at the wing guard, and McClure's minutes at wing forward. He will play a lot, even if Wall comes. Becuase we stand to lose three players next year. Paulus and G spend most of their time on the Wing or at Guard, while McClure splits time there. Our incoming recruits do not address the wing position next year.

But, as much as I like E-Will's potential, he has a lot of work to do before he is anything but a non-factor on offense. He might make a huge leap next year, a la Nolan, but E-will's Offensive skills are far behind where Nolan's were last year. E-Will might be where Nolan was last year by next season, skill wise, but we still might need some help at the guard. (I know it sounds like I am slamming E-Will a little, but not really. His rediculous athleticism will allow him to erase his own skill related mistakes to a certain extent. As his skills approach his athleticism, he will be a superstar.

I know that Marty P is in the mix, but I don't know that we can count on him, either to return or too improve enough to log heavy minutes at the guard.

Of course, a return by G would negate any need for additional guards or wings, and Duke would be loaded for bear next year, even with Kyle in the pros.

Diddy
01-05-2009, 03:18 PM
I believe State already has a commitment from Wall's most talented high school teammate (could be wrong). I also believe State is in the final 3 for Derrick Favors. The two of them were on campus together (i believe) for an official visit and talked extensively about playing together. If Cosner stays and the two of them come...that's all of a sudden a very talented team.

Also. Memphis has Xavier Henry who is considered an extremely good shooter.

I concede the Henry Point. But, if Evans stays, that is a lot of talented guards to satisfy.

As for NCSU, no. Just, no. They have no shot at Favors. None. He barely lists them. The only people who think they have a shot at him are delusional NCSU fans. He will go to UGA or GT. He will not go to State. State fans are clinging to this false hope becuase it is literally the only light on the horizon besides Wall. I think Costner leaves in this year's weak class, and even if he doesn't he has shown no capacity to coexist with other stars, and his effort is spotty.

Memphis is definitely an option, and perhaps our strongest comp. I just see Baylor fading down the stretch as Wall realizes that Baylor is basketball oblivion. Texas will be good next year with a great recruiting class comming in, and will be the clear No.1 in Texas. They will be a top 10 team next year, and will completely overshadow Baylor in media attention. Good players have gotten ignored in better situations than at Baylor next year.

Indoor66
01-05-2009, 03:23 PM
I didn't mean that Williams would fill Paulus's exact role, merely that he would play that approximate number of minutes.

Next year, should Wall attend Duke, Either he, Smith, or Jon would be the primary ball handler at all times. Barring foul trouble, one of those three would be in the game at all times when the outcome is in question. Wall would probably be the primary PG, then Smith, and then Jon. For instance, when Wall comes out, E-will would come in and Nolan would be the primary handler.

I like E-Will, whose potential is as high as anyone on the team. His athleticism and rebounding will earn him key minutes next year. A dedication to D will help his cause. But, to be honest, his basketball skills are behind where I thought they would be this year. I am sure they will improve next year, but he still would not necessarily be a Offensive dynamo, even next year. But he will play, a lot. Remember, we are not just losing Paulus (and Hendo, for the sake of this argument). We are also losing McClure. I feel confident that Kelly and the Plums will more than make up for any minutes McClure spends guarding opposing bigs. But, this year, he also spends some key minutes guarding opposing team's wing players. Right now we have THREE key wing defenders in Jon, Hendo, and McClure. Nolan and Kyle can do it in a pinch, but Kyle will not spend huge minutes chasing a 6-5 ish player, as both he and Nolan are better suited to guarding other types of players. Next year, we could lose two of our primary wing defenders.

E-Will will get Paulus's minutes (not his roll) at the wing guard, and McClure's minutes at wing forward. He will play a lot, even if Wall comes. Becuase we stand to lose three players next year. Paulus and G spend most of their time on the Wing or at Guard, while McClure splits time there. Our incoming recruits do not address the wing position next year.

But, as much as I like E-Will's potential, he has a lot of work to do before he is anything but a non-factor on offense. He might make a huge leap next year, a la Nolan, but E-will's Offensive skills are far behind where Nolan's were last year. E-Will might be where Nolan was last year by next season, skill wise, but we still might need some help at the guard. (I know it sounds like I am slamming E-Will a little, but not really. His rediculous athleticism will allow him to erase his own skill related mistakes to a certain extent. As his skills approach his athleticism, he will be a superstar.

I know that Marty P is in the mix, but I don't know that we can count on him, either to return or too improve enough to log heavy minutes at the guard.

Of course, a return by G would negate any need for additional guards or wings, and Duke would be loaded for bear next year, even with Kyle in the pros.

What makes you think that Wall (IF offered and IF he selects Duke) would replace Nolan as the primary ball handler? Why do you believe that a player not even offered by Duke would be, immediately, a superior player to Nolan after Nolan has (by that time) three years in the Duke system? Last year the "new savior crowd" said E. Williams was to become the prime back court player for Duke. You see how that worked out.

These types of assertions are either not thought through or are, to me, naive in their outlook.