John Wall Recruitment

[fan345678]

Yea, but dropping everything in your life for one guy is a conflicting message to "team first."

Wall is important - I'm sure K has made this clear. Missing a meeting with someone you can meet with at any time isn't a huge deal.

Also a conflicting message to "team first:"
Promoting your own book about taking summers away from your team to coach a bunch of pros, rather than meeting with a player who could greatly improve your team.

[Devil07]

Also a conflicting message to "team first:"
Promoting your own book about taking summers away from your team to coach a bunch of pros, rather than meeting with a player who could greatly improve your team.

Sorry to point out your quote as there are many, but I think people may be blowing this out of proportion. I get that this was not a great thing to happen and I'm certainly disappointed that Wall wasn't able to meet with Coach and experience LDOC. That being said, some people here seem to be reading a lot into this about Coach K's priorities. This book tour was planned long in advance and these arrangements are difficult to get out of. Right now the season just ended and finals are approaching. There aren't a lot of team activities going on right now. Likewise, in most years recruiting is done at this point. My point being, when this was scheduled Coach K probably thought this would be the least obtrusive time to do a book tour that his publisher surely required him to do. It just so happens that we're still in it with Wall, which is good, but certainly not foreseen. It's unfortunate that the meeting didn't work out, but these things happen. From all that I've read Wall seems to be a smart kid, so I'm sure he'll understand that sometimes planes get delayed. Do I think this may have a negative impact on his recruitment? Maybe. But lets cut Coach K some slack here. The olympics are over and have been discussed a thousand times. If it weren't for John Wall the book tour wouldn't have mattered and people probably would be pleased that Coach was making appearances on shows like Colbert which younger generations watch. It's a shame the delay happened, but let's not read more into it than is really there.

[roywhite]

There's an article on Rivals (premium) that quotes Wall, and he says he hopes to reach a decision by next week.

[fan345678]

Sorry to point out your quote as there are many, but I think people may be blowing this out of proportion. I get that this was not a great thing to happen and I'm certainly disappointed that Wall wasn't able to meet with Coach and experience LDOC. That being said, some people here seem to be reading a lot into this about Coach K's priorities. This book tour was planned long in advance and these arrangements are difficult to get out of. Right now the season just ended and finals are approaching. There aren't a lot of team activities going on right now. Likewise, in most years recruiting is done at this point. My point being, when this was scheduled Coach K probably thought this would be the least obtrusive time to do a book tour that his publisher surely required him to do. It just so happens that we're still in it with Wall, which is good, but certainly not foreseen. It's unfortunate that the meeting didn't work out, but these things happen. From all that I've read Wall seems to be a smart kid, so I'm sure he'll understand that sometimes planes get delayed. Do I think this may have a negative impact on his recruitment? Maybe. But lets cut Coach K some slack here. The olympics are over and have been discussed a thousand times. If it weren't for John Wall the book tour wouldn't have mattered and people probably would be pleased that Coach was making appearances on shows like Colbert which younger generations watch. It's a shame the delay happened, but let's not read more into it than is really there.

good points re: recruiting usually being over and this looking like the best time to schedule a tour

[FerryFor50]

There's an article on Rivals (premium) that quotes Wall, and he says he hopes to reach a decision by next week.

He also says he's not doing any more visits after Miami.

[BlueinBlo]

Does anyeone else think that whole book siging thing was just a lie. I think Wall did meet with Coach K yesterday and Coach K didn't want the media or students surronding them that he said he was elsewhere. I just don't think Coach K would have blown this off unless something major happen. Wall is now stating he will pick sooner rather than later, isn't he supposed to meet at Duke next week?? Maybe an official announcment?? Man, I am speculating but it would be awesome to get this kid.

[TheBrianZoubekExperience]

If the meeting was cancelled or K at least didn't make every effort to make it to meet with Wall, maybe that could mean K knows or is getting signals that we don't have much of a chance. I hope thats not the case but maybe he doesn't think we're really in this so he's not as worried about making every effort to see Wall.

[Scorp4me]

Duke shouldn't have gotten into this one and they should get out quickly. I'm sorry, I understand he's just a kid and he has every right to enjoy the experience as much as he wants. But he's just making the schools involved look bad. Look at the comments recently made about Carolina. The more I see the more I think this just isn't in our best interest.

[pfrduke]

Duke shouldn't have gotten into this one and they should get out quickly. I'm sorry, I understand he's just a kid and he has every right to enjoy the experience as much as he wants. But he's just making the schools involved look bad. Look at the comments recently made about Carolina. The more I see the more I think this just isn't in our best interest.

Because . . . ?

He's by all accounts a good kid, who's taking a (sensibly) deliberative approach to his decision. He's also by all accounts a dynamic, lightning quick point guard who would be a top-10 (top-5?) pick if he was draft eligible this year. Why again is he not in our best interest?

[Classof06]

While it isn't the end of the world, I do agree with DukeHoopsGuru in that missing the meeting mattered. The kid is eliminating half the schools on his list next week or whatever and I personally believe Duke is one of those schools that is teetering on the fringe of making the cut and not (absolutely no evidence to back this up, just my perception). This incident did not help Duke's cause and Duke doesn't need any recruiting obstacles to begin with.

I'm guessing the people who think K missing the meeting is a small deal are the same people who think everything's fine and well with Duke's recruiting.

In either case, it's not.

[BlueintheFace]

I'm going to repeat this:

NOBODY KNOWS if it mattered yet.

If Wall chooses a school before meeting again with K, then yah, K obviously screwed up...big. There is no argument against that really. Face time matters and recruiting is about "developing relationships" in the words of K (especially relationships of trust).

BUT, K might be seeing John Wall again before he decides. He might be the last one to see John, which would work out great and look like a genius move. If this were to happen, regardless of what school he chose, you couldn't fault K for the outcome.

Let's wait and see what happens people...

[mgtr]

I am going to watch on TV (or computer) every Duke game next year.
If John Wall signs with Duke or not, I am going to watch every game.
If G goes to the NBA or not, I am going to watch every game.
If (fill in any eventuality you can imagine) I am going to watch every game.

Gee, I wish practice started tomorrow! I am anxious for next year's Duke games.

[BlueintheFace]

1500+ posts.... about ONE recruit.... my god.

I remember a time years ago when this would have been a laughable endeavor. This little neighborhood bar message board has turned in to a Main Street Event.

I like it and I hate it.

[Chicago 1995]

good points re: recruiting usually being over and this looking like the best time to schedule a tour

Except for that April 9-12 and 17-22 were part of an open contact period where, even if K was done with 2009 recruiting, could have been meeting with 2010 recruits.

The book tour was poorly timed when looking at the recruiting calendar.

[dgoore97]

is becoming ridiculous. we have no actual information. we don't know if the meeting actually occurred or if it really was cancelled. if postponed we don't have any idea whose decision it was or what the context was. yet many of us are happy to speculate about k's loyalty, team playerness, judgment, etc. wall says he's going to decide in a week. in the meantime, i think everyone should just calm down and take a time out.

moderators, is there a precedent for temporarily stopping a thread before turning it back on later?

[moonpie23]

anyone stop to think that maybe clifton/wall called the meeting off?

[NSDukeFan]

While it isn't the end of the world, I do agree with DukeHoopsGuru in that missing the meeting mattered. The kid is eliminating half the schools on his list next week or whatever and I personally believe Duke is one of those schools that is teetering on the fringe of making the cut and not (absolutely no evidence to back this up, just my perception). This incident did not help Duke's cause and Duke doesn't need any recruiting obstacles to begin with.

I'm guessing the people who think K missing the meeting is a small deal are the same people who think everything's fine and well with Duke's recruiting.

In either case, it's not.

Count me in as one of those people. Though we for some reason haven't been able to get a Battier, Burgess, Brand class every year. Have you seen our class for 2010? Oh yeah, we also have 2 very good recruits coming in next year (no, not Wall, Henry, Bradley, Cousins or Favors, but in the next tier). Oops, sorry have to end this quickly, I think I just saw a piece of the sky coming apart.

[gotham devil]

Except for that April 9-12 and 17-22 were part of an open contact period where, even if K was done with 2009 recruiting, could have been meeting with 2010 recruits.

The book tour was poorly timed when looking at the recruiting calendar.

Excellent point, but, perhaps, we can blame the publisher for not putting it off for two weeks.

Without Wall and Henderson, our next best chance at a Final Four may come in the 2011-12 season.

[johaad]

Count me in as one of those people. Though we for some reason haven't been able to get a Battier, Burgess, Brand class every year. Have you seen our class for 2010? Oh yeah, we also have 2 very good recruits coming in next year (no, not Wall, Henry, Bradley, Cousins or Favors, but in the next tier). Oops, sorry have to end this quickly, I think I just saw a piece of the sky coming apart.

Agreed.

[Chicago 1995]

Excellent point, but, perhaps, we can blame the publisher for not putting it off for two weeks.

Without Wall and Henderson, our next best chance at a Final Four may come in the 2011-12 season.

He'd have some control over the scheduling of the tour.

[gotham devil]

He'd have some control over the scheduling of the tour.

You'd think, but, perhaps, the publisher felt it was necessary to release it in late March/early April in order to take advantage of the zenith of college basketball interest nationally.

[MulletMan]

What in God's name is wrong with you people? Seriously? You're this worried about John Wall coming to Duke that the mere report that a possible meeting that may or may not have been cancelled has incited this insanity?

Look... if the kid was SO close to cutting Duke off his "list" that K being stuck out of town was the deciding factor, then such is life. He probably wasn't going to come here anyway IF that is what happened. Which none of y'all actually know.

I know I shouldn't post this, and I'm a Mod, and blah blah blah, but really:

GET A LIFE! Don't let the whims of an 18-year-old kid dictate your personal happiness.

Geez.

[soccerstud2210]

What in God's name is wrong with you people? Seriously? You're this worried about John Wall coming to Duke that the mere report that a possible meeting that may or may not have been cancelled has incited this insanity?

Look... if the kid was SO close to cutting Duke off his "list" that K being stuck out of town was the deciding factor, then such is life. He probably wasn't going to come here anyway IF that is what happened. Which none of y'all actually know.

I know I shouldn't post this, and I'm a Mod, and blah blah blah, but really:

GET A LIFE! Don't let the whims of an 18-year-old kid dictate your personal happiness.

Geez.

amen. finally someone said it! Duke Basketball is still Duke Basketball regardless of if some "great" high school player comes to play for us

[allenmurray]

What in God's name is wrong with you people? Seriously? You're this worried about John Wall coming to Duke that the mere report that a possible meeting that may or may not have been cancelled has incited this insanity?

Look... if the kid was SO close to cutting Duke off his "list" that K being stuck out of town was the deciding factor, then such is life. He probably wasn't going to come here anyway IF that is what happened. Which none of y'all actually know.

I know I shouldn't post this, and I'm a Mod, and blah blah blah, but really:

GET A LIFE! Don't let the whims of an 18-year-old kid dictate your personal happiness.

Geez.

He's mod as hell and he's not going to take it anymore!

[Chicago 1995]

What in God's name is wrong with you people? Seriously? You're this worried about John Wall coming to Duke that the mere report that a possible meeting that may or may not have been cancelled has incited this insanity?

Look... if the kid was SO close to cutting Duke off his "list" that K being stuck out of town was the deciding factor, then such is life. He probably wasn't going to come here anyway IF that is what happened. Which none of y'all actually know.

I know I shouldn't post this, and I'm a Mod, and blah blah blah, but really:

GET A LIFE! Don't let the whims of an 18-year-old kid dictate your personal happiness.

Geez.

Wall or not, the conflict here between the book tour and recruiting is a fair point for discussion, and something I think it is fair game about which to be concerned.

[TheBrianZoubekExperience]

What in God's name is wrong with you people? Seriously? You're this worried about John Wall coming to Duke that the mere report that a possible meeting that may or may not have been cancelled has incited this insanity?

Look... if the kid was SO close to cutting Duke off his "list" that K being stuck out of town was the deciding factor, then such is life. He probably wasn't going to come here anyway IF that is what happened. Which none of y'all actually know.

I know I shouldn't post this, and I'm a Mod, and blah blah blah, but really:

GET A LIFE! Don't let the whims of an 18-year-old kid dictate your personal happiness.

Geez.

Um, I read at work when I'm bored during the week and when I have to work weekends. Its a high profile recruit for the team this entire board is about. This thread isn't that much different than any other thread except that its dragging on much longer. Not exactly dictating my personal happiness.

[LaettnerWannabe]

Here's more fuel for the fire.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_basketball/story/5013110/

[moonpie23]

Wall or not, the conflict here between the book tour and recruiting is a fair point for discussion, and something I think it is fair game about which to be concerned.


why, exactly, do you believe that the book tour had anything to do with moving the meeting? many people here are assuming that K called off the meeting.


and NO ONE KNOWS.......

[rotogod00]

"Duke Basketball is still Duke Basketball regardless of if some "great" high school player comes to play for us"

and what's the current state of "Duke Basketball" on the national landscape? wouldn't netting a player of wall's caliber improve upon it

[dubayuw]

Here's more fuel for the fire.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_basketball/story/5013110/
WRAL is talking out of their butts, first with G and now with this. I would love to believe we are the leaders but I just can't, especially since UNC just lost two players and have an open scholarship.

[geraldsneighbor]

WRAL is talking out of their butts, first with G and now with this. I would love to believe we are the leaders but I just can't, especially since UNC just lost two players and have an open scholarship.

They probably are right about G. I don't know if their sources are right but either way. I'll take it if I can get it.

[chrisheery]

Here's more fuel for the fire.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_basketball/story/5013110/

I would love to know on what the base that "belief." I hope it is true, but just tell us how you got to that point.

This is interminable. I would like to fast forward to the end now, please.

[Chicago 1995]

why, exactly, do you believe that the book tour had anything to do with moving the meeting? many people here are assuming that K called off the meeting.


and NO ONE KNOWS.......

It's a conflict between recruiting generally and the book tour. There are a limited number of open days this month, and K had book dates scheduled on three of those days, limiting (if not eliminating) his ability to meet with recruits. That's what I was talking about.

[soccerstud2210]

"Duke Basketball is still Duke Basketball regardless of if some "great" high school player comes to play for us"

and what's the current state of "Duke Basketball" on the national landscape.

you tell me?

there are quite a few teams that would love to boast a two 5-star recruiting class, with the possibilty of another (depending on what happens with wall or bledsoe) and returning at least 4 starters maybe 5 (depending on what G does)

[Vincetaylor]

They probably are right about G. I don't know if their sources are right but either way. I'll take it if I can get it.

Barry Jacobs is the one who wrote it. He's been covering ACC hoops longer than just about anyone. He is much more credible than most of those other guys at WRAL. I take this as really good news.

[Kewlswim]

Barry Jacobs is the one who wrote it. He's been covering ACC hoops longer than just about anyone. He is much more credible than most of those other guys at WRAL. I take this as really good news.

Hi,

Barry Jacobs, if he is in fact who wrote it, is very credible. This is making me feel really good about our chances with John Wall. Wow.

GO DUKE!

[rotogod00]

you tell me?

there are quite a few teams that would love to boast a two 5-star recruiting class, with the possibilty of another (depending on what happens with wall or bledsoe) and returning at least 4 starters maybe 5 (depending on what G does)

of course i know about our recruiting class. and while excited about kelly and plumlee, they don't fill our greatest needs: a penetrating PG and a banger in the paint. wall would take care of the former. we haven't had a point of his caliber for many, many years....and one of the reasons we haven't advanced deep in the tourney over the course of that time.

[soccerstud2210]

of course i know about our recruiting class. and while excited about kelly and plumlee, they don't fill our greatest needs: a penetrating PG and a banger in the paint. wall would take care of the former. we haven't had a point of his caliber for many, many years....and one of the reasons we haven't advanced deep in the tourney over the course of that time.

i understand this, it's just not as gloomy as everyone is making it. it is what it is. Duke basketball hasn't changed. we have a good class coming in with a potential to be a great class if we can nab WALL/Soulja Boy or maybe bledsoe and a potentially UNBELIEVABLE class in '10 with dawkins, hairston, thorton, and posiibly barnes, knight, and whoever we go after.

[geraldsneighbor]

i understand this, it's just not as gloomy as everyone is making it. it is what it is. Duke basketball hasn't changed. we have a good class coming in with a potential to be a great class if we can nab WALL/Soulja Boy or maybe bledsoe and a potentially UNBELIEVABLE class in '10 with dawkins, hairston, thorton, and posiibly barnes, knight, and whoever we go after.

Baby steps man....baby steps.

[soccerstud2210]

Baby steps man....baby steps.

yes purely hypothetical

[mr. synellinden]

I know others have made this general point, but does anyone really know what the facts are or what impact there is, if any?

Does anyone really think that if John Wall had decided he wanted or might want to play at Duke, and Coach K had to cancel the meeting at the last minute because of a cancelled or delayed flight or changed schedule, that he would be petty enough to change his mind and decide he no longer wanted to play at Duke?

There are so many possibilities here and nobody knows the facts. Maybe he already decided he didn't want to play at Duke, so it's irrelevant. Maybe he was meeting with K as a courtesy to tell him face to face he's going to Kentucky and instead had to tell him on the phone. Maybe he already decided he wants to come to Duke, wanted to tell K in person, but couldn't but told him on the phone and will announce when he's ready. If he's somewhere in between wanting for sure and not wanting for sure to play for Duke, I sincerely doubt that whatever happened yesterday for whatever reason would change his mind about that. I can't believe that if K had to cancel at the last minute it would have been for a reason that John Wall wouldn't understand.

This is a non-issue in terms of the impact on Wall's decision. Can we please move on?

[Indoor66]

Why are so many borrowing so much trouble in this Wall matter?

[geraldsneighbor]

Why are so many borrowing so much trouble in this Wall matter?

I'll answer this one. IMO, there is a sense of urgency that with losing G (most likely) we need to try to fill that void he would be leaving. People realize now more than ever what a PG can do that can penetrate the lane. We all saw what Lawson did to us. We will be thin at Guard next year without landing anyone. Wall gets us most likely a true PG. It allows Scheyer and Smith to go back to the 2-guard spot. That is just what I think. I know I feel that if we can land Wall or keep G, special things can happen next year. While things can still be great without the two of them, there will always be that what if in the back of our heads. Hopefully things work out.

[BlueintheFace]

Here's more fuel for the fire.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_basketball/story/5013110/

burn, baby burn...

[roywhite]

burn, baby burn...

Hmmm....the blogger on that link was Barry Jacobs, who is careful with his facts...

Me likee...

Edit: As I look over previous posts, I see others have made the same observation about Barry Jacobs.

[mph]

WRAL is talking out of their butts, first with G and now with this. I would love to believe we are the leaders but I just can't, especially since UNC just lost two players and have an open scholarship.

Barry Jacobs calls us the leader and he's talking out of his butt. And yet Carolina leads us even though there's no credible report that UNC is even seriously recruiting Wall. I guess some people are just half-empty types.

P.S. Why do people think that Lawson and Ellington's announcement changed Roy's perspective on Wall? Even if he didn't know they were leaving until the official announcement, he had a good idea they were gone. And, even if he couldn't officially offer Wall a scholarship, he certainly could have met with and courted him. It doesn't make sense for Roy to avoid all contact with Wall on the infinitesimal chance Lawson and Ellington come back. It would have made more sense for him to at least let Wall know that he'd be getting an offer if they left.

[chrisheery]

wish I had earned a need based scholarship to Watzone's site. Man, I'd love to know what he knows.

[Olympic Fan]

and what's the current state of "Duke Basketball" on the national landscape?

The current state of Duke basketball?

Well, let's see ... Duke is coming off an ACC championship, a 30-win season and a No. 6 finish in the final AP poll. Wow, pretty alarming!

In the last decade, Duke has finished in the final AP top 10 nine times (four times No. 1) -- more than any other team. Duke won more games in the last decade than any team in any decade! Duke has reached the Sweet 16 eight times in the decade -- two more than any other school. Seven ACC titles in the last decade -- nobody else has ever come close to doing that.

I understand the complaints -- people think it's their birthright to be in the Final Four every year and to win the national title every other year. It's true that Duke has had a problem getting past the Sweet in recent years -- just one of six times since winning the national title in 2001. The way people talk, Duke basketball lost its status. Yeah, it's been an eternity since Duke's last Final Four trip. Is anybody left alive who can remember all the way back to 2004? And what about that last national title, back in the mythical age of 2001?

Jeez.

Read the story linked on the front page about the announced Duke at Wisconsin game -- they're calling it one of the biggest games in their school history ... just like Purdue last year, when Duke's visit generated the first camp-out in school history and the greatest crowd in school history for a non-Indiana game.

THAT's the current state of Duke basketball.

And it's on the upswing -- we hit rock bottom in 2007 -- rock bottom being 22-11 and a spot in the NCAA Tournament (which is a heck of a lot better than the worst recent seasons of such celebrated programs as North Carolina, Kentucky, UConn, Florida and Michigan State -- all have missed the NCAA Tournament in this decade). 2007 was the bottom -- the 2008 team was a lot better (28 wins and a No. 9 finish); the 2009 team took another step (30 wins, a No. 6 finish; an ACC title, NCAA Sweet 16).

Even if Henderson leaves, Duke returns five of its top six players next season (at least Nolan Smith was clearly the sixth man in postseason) and adds two top 25 recruits. K has already lined up three premier prospects for 2010 (Hairston and Dawkins are certain to be top 25 guys) and is in the line for a top 10 guy in Harrison Barnes.

I know he's had some recruiting losses lately, but he had recruiting misses in the early '90s too -- anybody remember the anguish over Adonal Foyle or the hype for Jared Jeffries?

I understand that Patrick Patterson or Greg Monroe could have made Duke a Final Four team. Well, too bad (and how did their choices work out for them -- I hope they enjoyed playing in the NIT).

Duke basketball is a hell of a lot bigger than John Wall. Reading this thread (which I've mostly avoided) makes me despair for Duke fans. I know it hurts many of you that Carolina has been better than Duke -- for all of three straight years. Many of you sound like the bleating Carolina fans between 1999-2004, when Duke was clearly better for six straight years.

The rivalry is going to go back and forth -- it always has and it always will. I like where our program is and where it's going. Duke basketball will be fine with or without the one-year wonder from Raleigh.

And John Wall? He would be a nice addition. But Chris Corchiani was a guy K wanted badly 20 years ago to replace Tommy Amaker. When he lost CC to NC State, he went hard after Derrick Martin and lost him to UCLA. He started to go after Kenny Anderson in the next class, but settled instead for a coaches' son from Jersey City.

How'd Bobby Hurley work out?

Lighten up, Francis (to quote the great Warren Oates).

[johaad]

Great post Olympic. Very well thought out.

[geraldsneighbor]

I second that. Great post. Recruiting is just so much more publicized now, than it was than. That's why people like myself get into this stuff.

[MChambers]

Wall or not, the conflict here between the book tour and recruiting is a fair point for discussion, and something I think it is fair game about which to be concerned.

What exactly do you think Coach K should have done? Cancelled a commitment? Fixed the plane himself?

More to the point, what are your qualifications for questioning the recruiting tactics of a coach who is probably the second most accomplished college coach ever?

Sorry to pick on you alone, since there are other contributors to this thread that also deserve criticism, but really, let's keep things in perspective.

[NYDukie]

If I didn't know this was a Duke site, you would think you landed on a Kentucky message board with all the negativity and everyone thinking they know what's best for the program.

[Duvall]

Duke is loaded with guards.

Barring new developments, Duke will have three guards next year to run a three-guard offense.

[BlueintheFace]

Barring new developments, Duke will have three guards next year to run a three-guard offense.

(inhale.... deep siiiiiiiiiigh)

[kramerbr]

What exactly do you think Coach K should have done? Cancelled a commitment? Fixed the plane himself?

More to the point, what are your qualifications for questioning the recruiting tactics of a coach who is probably the second most accomplished college coach ever?

Sorry to pick on you alone, since there are other contributors to this thread that also deserve criticism, but really, let's keep things in perspective.

All of those suggestions would of been great, had K not already been in Durham. Not sure where the rumors of K not being able to make it back came from other than some Bomani Jones guy. It was simply rescheduled for better or worse...

[G man]

Maybe they did not bother to meet on Wednesday because he told K he was already coming! Keep your heads up guys we will be fine one way or the other. I for one still have a lot of faith in Nolan!!! I think he blows up this year. He has the athleticism to make the step.

[Chicago 1995]

What exactly do you think Coach K should have done? Cancelled a commitment? Fixed the plane himself?

More to the point, what are your qualifications for questioning the recruiting tactics of a coach who is probably the second most accomplished college coach ever?

Sorry to pick on you alone, since there are other contributors to this thread that also deserve criticism, but really, let's keep things in perspective.

Do you have an opinion on foreign policy? TARP? Taxes? Are you qualified to levy those criticisms, whether it be of the current or former administration?

That's the great thing about a discussion board. It's like a big sports bar, and we can all sit around and have a discussion and a glass of whatever quenches our thirst. If the only ones allowed to criticize or raise questions about K are those with similar qualifications, this wouldn't be much of a discussion board. It would be Bob Knight and John Wooden talking. The rest of us would simply be taking about how great everything is and how we're the best. Yippee! K's a great coach. He's got a resume that only three or four can match. But he's not perfect. He's not infallible, and just because I've not got 830+ wins doesn't mean I (or anyone here) can't raise valid questions about things he's doing. I don't believe fans can't be critics. I don't believe they can't raise questions. I'm not, and have never been, one of those "if you aren't with us, you are against us" kind of people. We can have discussions, certainly, because its not like one thing written here is going to change anything that happens in Cameron, and we can disagree. But at times, we're both going to be right.

For what it is worth, I don't need to be told to keep things in perspective. This board, and Duke basketball, are a hobby. Something I do for a little fun in and among the things that do matter. Keeping the world safe for corporate America. Making sure my brain doesn't try to explode like it did last October. Spending every second I can with my son. Getting ready for my second child. That I don't drink the kool aid and I want to have a discussion a bit more interesting and critical than just how awesome we are doesn't mean I don't have perspective. It just means I have a different opinion than you do, and you could engage the discussion if you disagree rather than fighting the concept of discussion in the first place.

[lifelongdevil]

For what it is worth, I don't need to be told to keep things in perspective. This board, and Duke basketball, are a hobby. Something I do for a little fun in and among the things that do matter. Keeping the world safe for corporate America. Making sure my brain doesn't try to explode like it did last October. Spending every second I can with my son. Getting ready for my second child. That I don't drink the kool aid and I want to have a discussion a bit more interesting and critical than just how awesome we are doesn't mean I don't have perspective. It just means I have a different opinion than you do, and you could engage the discussion if you disagree rather than fighting the concept of discussion in the first place.

Best Post Ive seen here in a while.

[rotogod00]

"That I don't drink the kool aid and I want to have a discussion a bit more interesting and critical than just how awesome we are doesn't mean I don't have perspective. It just means I have a different opinion than you do, and you could engage the discussion if you disagree rather than fighting the concept of discussion in the first place."

i applaud this post, Chicago. well done

[Scorp4me]

Because . . . ?

He's by all accounts a good kid, who's taking a (sensibly) deliberative approach to his decision. He's also by all accounts a dynamic, lightning quick point guard who would be a top-10 (top-5?) pick if he was draft eligible this year. Why again is he not in our best interest?

Is this a typical Duke recruiting situation? No, it's not. Everyone and there brother has said this is a desperate attempt by K and I for once have to agree. Hey, don't get me wrong Carolina is doing it as well. Roy has openly said he doesn't recruit kids with "handlers" yet he is doing it with this kid. I just don't see the desperation to win a NC that you guys do.

And even if this kid isn't a risk as you say (and I'm not implying he is) this recruiting situation is certainly a risk and we have the potential to be left with egg on our face.

As for Carolina, didn't I read that he was in no way interested in Carolina? I tried to find the article, but couldn't. Was this just something he said before they started recruiting him and he has sense changed his mind?

[MChambers]

Do you have an opinion on foreign policy? TARP? Taxes? Are you qualified to levy those criticisms, whether it be of the current or former administration?

That's the great thing about a discussion board. It's like a big sports bar, and we can all sit around and have a discussion and a glass of whatever quenches our thirst. If the only ones allowed to criticize or raise questions about K are those with similar qualifications, this wouldn't be much of a discussion board. It would be Bob Knight and John Wooden talking. The rest of us would simply be taking about how great everything is and how we're the best. Yippee! K's a great coach. He's got a resume that only three or four can match. But he's not perfect. He's not infallible, and just because I've not got 830+ wins doesn't mean I (or anyone here) can't raise valid questions about things he's doing. I don't believe fans can't be critics. I don't believe they can't raise questions. I'm not, and have never been, one of those "if you aren't with us, you are against us" kind of people. We can have discussions, certainly, because its not like one thing written here is going to change anything that happens in Cameron, and we can disagree. But at times, we're both going to be right.

For what it is worth, I don't need to be told to keep things in perspective. This board, and Duke basketball, are a hobby. Something I do for a little fun in and among the things that do matter. Keeping the world safe for corporate America. Making sure my brain doesn't try to explode like it did last October. Spending every second I can with my son. Getting ready for my second child. That I don't drink the kool aid and I want to have a discussion a bit more interesting and critical than just how awesome we are doesn't mean I don't have perspective. It just means I have a different opinion than you do, and you could engage the discussion if you disagree rather than fighting the concept of discussion in the first place.

Fine, let's discuss and not merely complain. If Coach K had a pre-existing commitment out of town for his book that, coupled with travel issues, caused the rescheduling, what should he have done? Cancelled the book tour? Never written the book?

Or if the facts are otherwise, as some have suggested, please tell us what he should done under those facts.

[whereinthehellami]

(inhale.... deep siiiiiiiiiigh)

(exhale....LMAO)

[RepoMan]

This has become the dumbest thread of all time.

. . . But, I can't stop reading it.

I need help.

[Chicago 1995]

Fine, let's discuss and not merely complain. If Coach K had a pre-existing commitment out of town for his book that, coupled with travel issues, caused the rescheduling, what should he have done? Cancelled the book tour? Never written the book?

Or if the facts are otherwise, as some have suggested, please tell us what he should done under those facts.

This isn't that difficult.

The open recruiting period here where coaches can meet with recruits off campus is a pretty narrow window. It's April 9-12 and April 17-22. It wouldn't have been that difficult to work with the publisher and publicist to schedule the book tour around those dates.

It's not John Wall. That's a window where K could have visited Harrison Barnes or Kryie Irving or Brandon Knight some other 2010 recruit. That's a recruiting period where Cal and Billy and others were meeting with recruits on the recruits turf. Meeting caoches and families. K was signing books.

It may have been really important with Wall, or it may have meant nothing, but the conflict should have been avoided period whether we needed a PG in 2009 or whether we'd locked up the top five in 2009 and had verbals from 2010. Why run the risk that you'd need these days to recruit and have to pass because of the book tour.

[moonpie23]

so many of you are assuming that he could not MAKE the meeting due to being in NY. I've stated previously that the meeting must not have been the WEDDING, as he could easily have taken a private jet (teterboro) back to derm, and then back to NY to continue the book tour.

perhaps this was more like meeting the bride-to-be just to pick out some flowers or to look at some different photographers, which are EASILY re-scheduled.

orrrrrr... MAYBE....just MAYBE the "bride to be" 's HANDLERS called and said that everything was all crazy and could they possibly meet next week?



y'all are so ready to heap criticism on coach k like he has no idea how to handle a recruiting effort.

[ClosetHurleyFan]

This has become the dumbest thread of all time.

. . . But, I can't stop reading it.

I need help.


is the first step to recovery!!!!!!!!! Want to go to form a John Wall Recruiting Thread Addicts meeting?

[blueprofessor]

Fine, let's discuss and not merely complain. If Coach K had a pre-existing commitment out of town for his book that, coupled with travel issues, caused the rescheduling, what should he have done? Cancelled the book tour? Never written the book?

Or if the facts are otherwise, as some have suggested, please tell us what he should done under those facts.

I hope it gets sorted out , but missed meetings send many negative messages. Right now, Wall's coming to Duke is more important than 4 hours of a weeklong tour. K has a co-author who charmingly interacts with people---certainly for the few hours he would be away(a short period given a whole week of the tour).This is a long book tour---no need to cancel---just take a portion of a day and turn those few hours over to the co-author.I have been on author--book tours here and in the UK---they are not complex and the tour does conflict with many of the 10 days coaches can enjoy prospect visits.It is likely that other coaches are using those days effectively to recruit.
Other coaches use private jets. Jets can be hired. Trips can be re-routed around bad weather. I have rented a plane and flown it home on a couple occasions when my family and I absolutely had to be home. Every airport has private firms with qualified pilots for hire.
These are some actions that could have been taken in response to your query.

Now, I do not know all the facts and trust that this meeting will be rescheduled ---but some recent top prospects never came---so it would have been important to meet and strike while the iron was hot.

If there is no meeting , then we can say the blunder was huge. If there is a future meeting, the damage may have been done anyway.
Let us all hope Wall signs with us so we will not have residual anger over the circumstances of another critical miss!
Best--Blueprof:)

[RepoMan]

It may have been really important with Wall, or it may have meant nothing.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can have such strong opinions about things when they really don't know what they are talking about. You have no idea what K is or is not doing with regard to these recruits. You have no idea what the recruits have said to him or what he has said to them. You have no idea why the meeting was postponed (you have hunches based on internet rumors, but you do not know anything). Moreover, to suggest (as you implicity do) that you care more and are more attentive to the nuances of recruiting these kids (who you never have even met!) than K, who has devoted the bulk of his adult life to this basketball program (and who, in fact, has met the kids) is just nutty.

[wilson]

This little neighborhood bar message board has turned in to a Main Street Event.

I like it and I hate it.

The neighborhood bar became a TGI Friday's quite a while ago.

[johaad]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can have such strong opinions about things when they really don't know what they are talking about. You have no idea what K is or is not doing with regard to these recruits. You have no idea what the recruits have said to him or what he has said to them. You have no idea why the meeting was postponed (you have hunches based on internet rumors, but you do not know anything). Moreover, to suggest (as you implicity do) that you care more and are more attentive to the nuances of recruiting these kids (who you never have even met!) than K, who has devoted the bulk of his adult life to this basketball program (and who, in fact, has met the kids) is just nutty.

Well put. I think many on the boards are getting Rush Limbaugh disease (AKA you ask a question, then give yourself answers, and believe them). We really don't know what happened with the meeting as there have been VERY different conflicting reports on the subject. Let's wait and see.

Go Duke

[rotogod00]

Well put. I think many on the boards are getting Rush Limbaugh disease (AKA you ask a question, then give yourself answers, and believe them). We really don't know what happened with the meeting as there have been VERY different conflicting reports on the subject. Let's wait and see.

Go Duke

But what if Wall goes elsewhere and it does turn out that this missed meeting had something to do with it. Are you (and that's a general "you", not specific to johaad) ready to heap some criticism on Coach K? Or is he still above reproach?

[Tim1515]

But what if Wall goes elsewhere and it does turn out that this missed meeting had something to do with it. Are you (and that's a general "you", not specific to johaad) ready to heap some criticism on Coach K? Or is he still above reproach?

Based on what?...If John decides to go to UK or UNC or wherever it will not be based on missing this meeting with K...he did not spend the past season carefully evaluating what the best situation will be for him next year to make a rash decision because K's flight was canceled or whatever happened...Duke fans sound a lot like Kentucky fans these days...

[johaad]

But what if Wall goes elsewhere and it does turn out that this missed meeting had something to do with it. Are you (and that's a general "you", not specific to johaad) ready to heap some criticism on Coach K? Or is he still above reproach?

I'm not saying that Coach K can't be criticized. What I'm saying is, lets get all the facts before critizing. I don't think its a good thing for Duke fans to jump the gun on critizing our coach. I have an immense amount of trust in Coach K that he knows what he is doing. Let's wait and see if more details about this meeting come out. At that point, reevaluate your position based on the facts, not speculation. We are not Kentucky.

[CMS2478]

Agreed.......let's just say that all the missed plane/missed meeting/book signing/etc., etc. that is being reported is not all accurate.

[rotogod00]

"I have an immense amount of trust in Coach K that he knows what he is doing. Let's wait and see if more details about this meeting come out. At that point, reevaluate your position based on the facts, not speculation."

as do i. i'm just saying what if.

[NYDukie]

Lot's of rumor mongering afloat here. Let's just take a step back, find out the facts and see what happens before we come to a rush of judgment. Similar to the LAX scandal, though that was on a much more important level, the truth will eventually come out.

And to comment on the assumption that ALL recruits like to be coddled and constantly desired and contacted by coaches (similar to that girl you wanted in H.S.). Some actually don't like all the constant calls, text messages, coaches just showing up like stalkers and letters. I've read articles in which some recruits have said this (sorry I don't have any links). Has anyone thought that maybe Wall is perfectly fine with rescheduling a meeting with Coach K, that he understands that Coach K had other committments prior to their meeting and that due to certain circumstances during that prior committment led to them having to reschedule? If Wall has waited this long, why would a few more days be a issue? Many are assuming a "sky is falling" or "how dare he" tone to how Coach K handled this but not many are thinking that Wall might just be mature enough to keep this in perspective in regard to his own recruiting process. Just a silly thought here from Long Island!!!

[rotogod00]

Agreed.......let's just say that all the missed plane/missed meeting/book signing/etc., etc. that is being reported is not all accurate.

and how do you know this? i would love to have the facts. they would help put this story to bed.

[NYDukie]

Based on what?...If John decides to go to UK or UNC or wherever it will not be based on missing this meeting with K...he did not spend the past season carefully evaluating what the best situation will be for him next year to make a rash decision because K's flight was canceled or whatever happened...Duke fans sound a lot like Kentucky fans these days...

Amen to that, said the same thing yesterday to the Kentucky like actions and tone of many posters.

[Owen Meany]

The comment was made at some point that if UNC were to swoop in and get Wall at the last minute it would prove that Williams had surpassed K, etc. There seems to be the perception among many that UNC is out of it with Wall. I don't believe so. So I think its important to point out the misconceptions about Walls recruitment.


UNC began recruiting John Wall before Duke. He attended their season opener back in Nov. 2007. Jeff Goodman - "According to sources, Roy Williams reached out to Wall and invited him to numerous Tar Heels games after last year's season-opener - but Wall and his people never displayed enough interest to show up". UNC dropped out of the chase because Wall didn't reciprocate interest at that time and because UNC landed several high profile recruits in the next 2 months "UNC gathering talent at record rate" Scout Jan 15, 2008 (including guards Bullock, Strickland, and Marshall to go with Drew). The Scout article notes that UNC may add Wall or McDonald also (they added McDonald). Clifton was involved with Wall then, despite claims that UNC has not recruited Wall because of their distaste for Clifton.


Coach K waited patiently an opportunity to meet directly with Wall and his mom. Many people (myself included) thought he was wasting his time. He eventually got the sit down, however, within the last month or so. Duke has gotten involved "at the last minute". Ironically, I believe that Coach K's ability to meet with Wall and his mom directly is what led Williams to get involved. It was the first sign that Clifton wasn't directly in control of Walls recruitment. (The N&O article with Clifton made it very clear that Clifton was not interested in Wall attending Duke. The fact that the meeting happened despite this, and many delays, indicates to me that Wall wanted it.)


UNC continues to recruit Wall. Roy contacted Wall. He wants Wall at UNC and I'm sure he communicated his interest - there is no other reason for him to call. I believe Williams is feeling Wall out - he doesn't want to make an offer unless he knows Wall will accept. But I have absolutely no doubt that a scholarship is there if Wall wants it.


Wall grew up a UNC fan. I read that his Myspace page lists UNC as his favorite team and Lawson as his favorite player. UNC is the home school. Walls mom is having health problems - so it would be advantageous to stay close to home. So if Wall decides to attend UNC it should be far from a shock - it should be expected. But many will declare this the greatest recruiting coup of all times should UNC land Wall.


Some believe that Clifton will not allow Wall to sign with UNC. I don't believe he can or will prevent it. Wall has exerted his independence as his decision grows closer. I don't believe Coach K could have gotten his meeting earlier. And if Clifton was in charge Wall would be not be talking to Roy and making comments about considering UNC, etc. Given Clifton's strong feelings (and the fact that he expressed them publicly), Walls communication with UNC has got to be embarrassing. I don't believe Wall would have done this unless he viewed UNC as a very real possibility.


Some of the comments from Wall and the UNC camp have been telling. There is not an offer right now, we'll see what happens, not recruiting me right now, etc. We are at the end of the recruitment - why the equivocation? There is clearly more going on beneath the surface.


Anyway, my point is that UNC began recruiting Wall well before Duke. They re-entered the picture immediately after Coach K met with Wall. He is a UNC fan and his favorite player is the PG he would replace, who is heading off to NBA riches. So it should not come as a surprise if Wall chooses UNC. And it will be ludicrous to suggest that it says anything about Coach K's recruiting prowess. But I have no doubt that some will portray it this way. And since appearances matter, they will help advance the notion that UNC is on the way up and Duke is on the way down.


It is kind of funny when you consider that 2 months ago it seemed that most fans thought Duke shouldn't be involved with Wall, K had no shot, he isn't a Duke "type", etc.

[BlueintheFace]

I think that Calipari has lost some confidence in his ability to bring in John Wall. At least, that is the best explanation I can think of as to why he has just offered Bledsoe. Of course, should Wall tell Calipari that he is coming... room will be made even if Bledsoe has accepted, but I think the Bledsoe offer sends a signal, however slight, that Calipari believes he will not get Wall.

[BlueintheFace]

Amen to that, said the same thing yesterday to the Kentucky like actions and tone of many posters.

No, No, No... go look at catspause.

- "get rid of the dead weight and lets bring in some winners,"-- in reference to whether or not Cal should not renew scholarships of kids who have been in the program for awhile but might not be as talented as the recruits... and this is a LEGITIMATE debate over there

- look at the ridiculous speculation on Pitino

- look at the player bashing they do over there, both their own and those of other teams

- I know some over here feel entitled to a final four every year, but those voices are often quashed while they are celebrated at catspause

... it aint even close

[JG Nothing]

Agreed.......let's just say that all the missed plane/missed meeting/book signing/etc., etc. that is being reported is not all accurate.

Given your comment, I assume you know what is accurate. Why not end all the speculation and rumors and just tell us what actually happened?

[johaad]

Given your comment, I assume you know what is accurate. Why not end all the speculation and rumors and just tell us what actually happened?

I may be wrong, but I think he was saying that most likely not EVERYTHING is true. Maybe some is, maybe some isn't.

By the way, my tone here is sincere and friendly (it's hard to convey tone online).

[NYDukie]

No, No, No... go look at catspause.

- "get rid of the dead weight and lets bring in some winners,"-- in reference to whether or not Cal should not renew scholarships of kids who have been in the program for awhile but might not be as talented as the recruits... and this is a LEGITIMATE debate over there

- look at the ridiculous speculation on Pitino

- look at the player bashing they do over there, both their own and those of other teams

- I know some over here feel entitled to a final four every year, but those voices are often quashed while they are celebrated at catspause

... it aint even close

I hear ya...it's just that with certain threads on the board, the rhetoric get's annoying. I don't sit here and think all is fine in Duke land, that we should think everything Coach K does is godspeak and that we're entitled to a Final 4 every year. On the contrary, I think it is fine to bring up educated critique's of the program, recruiting, strategy, etc. in a tasteful manner without being stoned by some as though it is heresy to question the Duke way. I think that is what these board's are meant for, dialogue on the going's on of the program, be it in good times or bad but in respectful ways. Some just seem to take it to other extremes as though they were the one's who ran the program.

[Tim1515]

Here is a must read article...

http://nationalsportsreview.com/sports/us/d-wil/2009/04/24/john-wall%E2%80%99s-very-special-visitor/[/URL]

[johaad]

Here is a must read article...

http://nationalsportsreview.com/sports/us/d-wil/2009/04/24/john-wall%E2%80%99s-very-special-visitor/[/URL]

I read this a little while ago and it just annoyed me.

[superdave]

Here is a must read article...

http://nationalsportsreview.com/sports/us/d-wil/2009/04/24/john-wall%E2%80%99s-very-special-visitor/[/URL]

I had a hard time reading those run-on sentences and deciphering some new spellings of standard english words.

My guess about Wall: we'll know when we know.

[moonpie23]

"we get there when WE GET THERE!!!"

...............Mister Incredible

[JG Nothing]

I may be wrong, but I think he was saying that most likely not EVERYTHING is true. Maybe some is, maybe some isn't.

By the way, my tone here is sincere and friendly (it's hard to convey tone online).

You may be right. If so, then I misread his comment.

[TwoDukeTattoos]

...but I heard from someone on the inside whom I consider to be a reliable source that Wall wants to come to Duke and Clifton wants Wall to come to Duke. The hang-up is his SAT's and Wall will be retesting so that he can become eligible for Duke. Until then, he must continue to "entertain" other offers "just in case" his SAT's remain below Duke's standards. We shall see...

[TheBrianZoubekExperience]

That would certainly drag things out even longer. I guess he'd take it on May 2 and find out on May 21.

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/scores.html

[BD80]

Say what you will about this thread, but its got legs. When it hit 1,000 posts, I wondered if it could hit 2,000. With that mark an easy two putt away (which for means a flat 4 feet away from the cup), and Wall's decision date uncertain, how high will the post count go before John announces his decision?

I'll set the over/under at 2750 posts, guessing that John's announcement is more than a week away, there will be a visit with Duke to generate excitement and unprovoked negativity, a large slug of posts about an announcement date (many unfounded) and the flurry of nervous posts leading up to the announcement. Hmmm, 2750 may be low :)

[moonpie23]

The hang-up is his SAT's and Wall will be retesting so that he can become eligible for Duke.

i did not want to bring that up, but i too, heard something similar from someone not in any kind of basketball circle, but from a student client who has some knowledge of that particular thing. Not that it was "out of the question", but rather, "on the edge" of having what it took (sat wise) to go to duke.

[kramerbr]

Given your comment, I assume you know what is accurate. Why not end all the speculation and rumors and just tell us what actually happened?

I believe that was cleared up in post #1555 and probably several others...

[Bluedog]

That would certainly drag things out even longer. I guess he'd take it on May 2 and find out on May 21.

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/scores.html

He said he was taking the SAT on May 4th. But he probably just got the date wrong as they don't really offer the SAT on a Monday ever, as far as I know. And your link indicates May 2 as well.


“I gotta take the SAT May 4,” Wall said. “Once that’s over I will qualify for college.”

http://www.zagsblog.com/2009/04/16/wall-not-thinking-nba-will-narrow-list-next-week/

[moonpie23]

I'll set the over/under at 2750 posts,



only if duke doesn't get him.....if we do, i'm going for around 2250

[SushiChef]

What's Kentucky's scholarship situation looking like? I just read that UK signed Darnell Dodson. So for the 2009 class, they have Cousins, Orton, Hood and now Dodson coming. They've offered both Bledsoe and Wall. Doesn't something have to give?

[G man]

From one day to the next I do not know what to think. One day I think he is going to UK the next I think he is lock for DUKE. I think the earlier post about his SAT scores holding him back makes sense. If I were Wall and I wanted to come to Duke thats what I do. If he doesn't qualify he wants the next best situation.

[CameronCrazy'11]

Wall's grades/ SAT scores are not an issue.

[Duke #33]

Wall's grades/ SAT scores are not an issue.

Do you have a quote or an article/link?

[CameronCrazy'11]

Not that I can name. Wall's a smart kid, and will qualify.

[geraldsneighbor]

200,000 views was achieved today. Congrats folks.

[dubayuw]

200,000 views was achieved today. Congrats folks.

100 pages here we come!

[BD80]

100 pages here we come!

Looks like we'll get there about the same time we hit 2,000 posts




:rolleyes:

[-bdbd]

On the Bledsoe thread - yet another string chalk full of handwringing - someone said Calipari had offered for Bledsoe to UK. If true, then it would seem to me a pretty strong positive for Duke. Timed with the (intended) face-to-face meeting at Duke, that seems to me to hint at good things for the home team... Who really knows, right? But you gotta think Calipari isn't offering to Mr. Bledsoe if he thinks Mr. Wall's "in the bag." No need for 2 stud PG's, right?!? And why would Bledsoe seriously consider/accept such an offer if he believes Mr. Wall will be starting there for the next year or two as well??? Time will tell.

.... only another couple weeks of this anxiety folks... pace yourselves...

-BDBD

P.S. I agree with the comment yesterday re. being amazed how many people repeatedly express strong opinions (such as a purportedly missed recruiting meeting) when they really know very few of the facts. Truth is none of us do, and it'll likely come out in time. I hope we can all remeber this furor at that time (some may need reminding ;) ) and laugh at ourselves.

[geraldsneighbor]

On the Bledsoe thread - yet another string chalk full of handwringing - someone said Calipari had offered for Bledsoe to UK. If true, then it would seem to me a pretty strong positive for Duke. Timed with the (intended) face-to-face meeting at Duke, that seems to me to hint at good things for the home team... Who really knows, right? But you gotta think Calipari isn't offering to Mr. Bledsoe if he thinks Mr. Wall's "in the bag." No need for 2 stud PG's, right?!? And why would Bledsoe seriously consider/accept such an offer if he believes Mr. Wall will be starting there for the next year or two as well??? Time will tell.

.... only another couple weeks of this anxiety folks... pace yourselves...

-BDBD

P.S. I agree with the comment yesterday re. being amazed how many people repeatedly express strong opinions (such as a purportedly missed recruiting meeting) when they really know very few of the facts. Truth is none of us do, and it'll likely come out in time. I hope we can all remeber this furor at that time (some may need reminding ;) ) and laugh at ourselves.


It'd be great if we could share a laugh about being wrong and landing Wall.

[Chicago 1995]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can have such strong opinions about things when they really don't know what they are talking about. You have no idea what K is or is not doing with regard to these recruits. You have no idea what the recruits have said to him or what he has said to them. You have no idea why the meeting was postponed (you have hunches based on internet rumors, but you do not know anything). Moreover, to suggest (as you implicity do) that you care more and are more attentive to the nuances of recruiting these kids (who you never have even met!) than K, who has devoted the bulk of his adult life to this basketball program (and who, in fact, has met the kids) is just nutty.


The point I was trying to make in the post you quote was pretty clear.

I think K made a mistake scheduling the book tour such that it conflicted with the April open recruiting period. If John Wall had signed a letter of intent with Duke in November, I'd still think he made a mistake. There's no reason to create a conflict like this in case something comes up such that you need to use these open days to visit recruits. By scheduling the book tour in this way, K couldn't recruit in person for a large chunk of the open period when his rivals and competators were not hamstrung in the same way.

Do I know more about recruiting than K does? Obviously not, and I've not suggested that, no matter what you might try to say to impeach my credibility. I think, with regard to this one aspect of our recruiting, K put himself at an unnecessary disadvantage.

Frankly, I don't see how this is controversial or something about which there can be much disagreement. K has a limited number of days over the course of the year that he can go visit recruits and have contact with them, their families and coaches in the recruits comfort zone. Instead of utilizing those days, or leaving the possibility to utilize those days if need be, K agreed to a book tour. That, to me, is pretty clearly a mistake. I'd be happy to hear why it isn't.

[dukebb444]

On the Bledsoe thread - yet another string chalk full of handwringing - someone said Calipari had offered for Bledsoe to UK. If true, then it would seem to me a pretty strong positive for Duke. Timed with the (intended) face-to-face meeting at Duke, that seems to me to hint at good things for the home team... Who really knows, right? But you gotta think Calipari isn't offering to Mr. Bledsoe if he thinks Mr. Wall's "in the bag." No need for 2 stud PG's, right?!? And why would Bledsoe seriously consider/accept such an offer if he believes Mr. Wall will be starting there for the next year or two as well??? Time will tell.

.... only another couple weeks of this anxiety folks... pace yourselves...

-BDBD

P.S. I agree with the comment yesterday re. being amazed how many people repeatedly express strong opinions (such as a purportedly missed recruiting meeting) when they really know very few of the facts. Truth is none of us do, and it'll likely come out in time. I hope we can all remeber this furor at that time (some may need reminding ;) ) and laugh at ourselves.

Looks like Cal did offer Bledsoe. This could be a positive for Duke.....

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3654070

[Grey Devil]

The point I was trying to make in the post you quote was pretty clear.

I think K made a mistake scheduling the book tour such that it conflicted with the April open recruiting period. If John Wall had signed a letter of intent with Duke in November, I'd still think he made a mistake. There's no reason to create a conflict like this in case something comes up such that you need to use these open days to visit recruits. By scheduling the book tour in this way, K couldn't recruit in person for a large chunk of the open period when his rivals and competators were not hamstrung in the same way.

Do I know more about recruiting than K does? Obviously not, and I've not suggested that, no matter what you might try to say to impeach my credibility. I think, with regard to this one aspect of our recruiting, K put himself at an unnecessary disadvantage.

Frankly, I don't see how this is controversial or something about which there can be much disagreement. K has a limited number of days over the course of the year that he can go visit recruits and have contact with them, their families and coaches in the recruits comfort zone. Instead of utilizing those days, or leaving the possibility to utilize those days if need be, K agreed to a book tour. That, to me, is pretty clearly a mistake. I'd be happy to hear why it isn't.

Another way to look at this (admittedly a much more positive viewpoint, which I often think we really need on this board, and in particular, this thread), is that K knew exactly what he was doing. Maybe, just maybe, he knows much more than any of the speculators who post here know (ya think!?!). Maybe K knows that Wall has Duke as his number one choice, based on being much closer to the source of information than anyone on this board is, and that he knows that Wall wants to come to Duke but that for whatever reason (the SAT issue raised earlier, Wall has too many other institutions hanging on his every word and needs to work them down, he just like to play with DBR's paranoid personalities, whatever) that he has to work it all out over a longer period of time and can't come right out and declare his intentions. So K knew that a scheduling conflict that some here have hypothesized would be disastrous for Duke (but never really was a problem since Wall has Duke as his #1 choice) really isn't a problem, certainly not anything other than another "the sky is falling" lament by so many posters on this thread.

Why can't we have an equally preposterous theory on the positive side as we have on the negative side?

Grey "I'm just so tired of all this second-guessing of every little thing based on highly speculative thinking -- this will all end soon and Duke will continue to be Duke whether Wall comes here or not" Devil

(with apologies to Jason)

[Chicago 1995]

Another way to look at this (admittedly a much more positive viewpoint, which I often think we really need on this board, and in particular, this thread), is that K knew exactly what he was doing. Maybe, just maybe, he knows much more than any of the speculators who post here know (ya think!?!). Maybe K knows that Wall has Duke as his number one choice, based on being much closer to the source of information than anyone on this board is, and that he knows that Wall wants to come to Duke but that for whatever reason (the SAT issue raised earlier, Wall has too many other institutions hanging on his every word and needs to work them down, he just like to play with DBR's paranoid personalities, whatever) that he has to work it all out over a longer period of time and can't come right out and declare his intentions. So K knew that a scheduling conflict that some here have hypothesized would be disastrous for Duke (but never really was a problem since Wall has Duke as his #1 choice) really isn't a problem, certainly not anything other than another "the sky is falling" lament by so many posters on this thread.

Why can't we have an equally preposterous theory on the positive side as we have on the negative side?

Grey "I'm just so tired of all this second-guessing of every little thing based on highly speculative thinking -- this will all end soon and Duke will continue to be Duke whether Wall comes here or not" Devil

(with apologies to Jason)

Or just post reflexively to shout down critcism of K?

My post clearly says that I think the conflict between the book tour and the open recruiting period was a mistake REGARDLESS OF THE JOHN WALL NON-MEETING. John Wall could have been committed to Duke or Kentucky or UNC or to playing in Europe, and the issue would still be the same. During one of the limited periods where a coach can have off-campus contact with a recruit, K limited himself and his opportunties to meet recruits generally in order to sell his book, while coaches like Calipari and Donovan (among others) were actually on the road recruiting.

Again, I don't see how this is that controversial. The book tour could have been scheduled such that K wouldn't have had the conflict. That it wasn't is a mistake.

[Duke4Ever32]

Or just post reflexively to shout down critcism of K?

My post clearly says that I think the conflict between the book tour and the open recruiting period was a mistake REGARDLESS OF THE JOHN WALL NON-MEETING. John Wall could have been committed to Duke or Kentucky or UNC or to playing in Europe, and the issue would still be the same. During one of the limited periods where a coach can have off-campus contact with a recruit, K limited himself and his opportunties to meet recruits generally in order to sell his book, while coaches like Calipari and Donovan (among others) were actually on the road recruiting.

Again, I don't see how this is that controversial. The book tour could have been scheduled such that K wouldn't have had the conflict. That it wasn't is a mistake.

I gotta say I agree with this. Book-hawking can be done anytime, contact with recruits cannot. This really should have been a no-brainer as to the better use of this time in terms of the team's welfare.

[moonpie23]

so, how does your theory hold up if it turns out that everything was fine, but Clifton and wall wound up canceling the meeting?

does that still make the book tour a "mistake" on coach K's part?

[Chicago 1995]

so, how does your theory hold up if it turns out that everything was fine, but Clifton and wall wound up canceling the meeting?

does that still make the book tour a "mistake" on coach K's part?

Please. I think I'm being clear. Obviously not.

Here's what I wrote. It answers that your question. I'll bold because the all-caps obviously wasn't clear enough.

"My post clearly says that I think the conflict between the book tour and the open recruiting period was a mistake REGARDLESS OF THE JOHN WALL NON-MEETING. John Wall could have been committed to Duke or Kentucky or UNC or to playing in Europe, and the issue would still be the same. During one of the limited periods where a coach can have off-campus contact with a recruit, K limited himself and his opportunties to meet recruits generally in order to sell his book, while coaches like Calipari and Donovan (among others) were actually on the road recruiting.

Again, I don't see how this is that controversial. The book tour could have been scheduled such that K wouldn't have had the conflict. That it wasn't is a mistake. "

[Duke4Ever32]

so, how does your theory hold up if it turns out that everything was fine, but Clifton and wall wound up canceling the meeting?

does that still make the book tour a "mistake" on coach K's part?

What's so hard to understand about this being TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of the Wall situation??

You know you have a limited number of days in which you can contact recruits in April, WHOEVER they may be. You know this MONTHS ahead of time. To decide to use this time hawking a book, which you could do ANYTIME, instead of leaving it open to pursue whatever recruits might be available, doesn't seem to be the best use of that time.

It's a little like traveling to a vacation destination, and spending your time there in a movie theater.

[verga]

Chicago 1995, you have proof that K missed the meeting with Wall or is it your opinion that the meeting didn't take place because of K's book tour? You are saying that the missed meeting was K's fault because of the book tour, where did you get your info? Are you also saying that K called Wall and scrapped the meeting because he couldn't make it? Do you have proof the meeting was ever scheduled or, exactly what are you saying?

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I remember a while back, can't remember the athlete, but basketball coach Dr. Tom Davis at Stanford offered (?) a scholarship to a kid who was then not admitted by the University and he wound up at USC. I think this was the final straw and Dr. Davis left the Farm. This is long enough ago that I don't remember if Dr. Davis actually offered the scholarship or wanted to offer so that he felt he could be competitive in the Pac-10?

If Coach K offers John Wall a scholarship are there any strings attached by the Admissions dept or has he already checked or how does that work? I would think that a student who just qualifies by NCAA standards won't necessarily be admitted because of Duke standards. I know that Sean Dockery didn't meet normal Duke standards, but I think that admit was being worked on for a while. I also don't know if he just squeaked by NCAA standards or was on the lower end of Duke standards or what have you. Any insight how this works? It seems odd to me that a student who has not been through an SAT test can seriously be considered for admission. Just because a student can handle the stress of being in competition does not mean that will transfer to test taking success.

Back in the day there were "Presidential Admits" too. I remember President Sanford talking about them or was it H. Keith H. Brody, one of them did (or maybe both)? President Keohane might have eradicated the practice. If it is still in practice maybe Coach K has some agreement such that President Brodhead will use one of his Presidential admits as long as John clears NCAA eligibility requirements?

I am looking forward to what looks like (keeping fingers crossed) John donning the Royal Duke Blue. I was just wondering how this worked. I don't know if this specific point was already talked about on this thread, I apologize if I am going over old territory, but this has turned into a long thread and I don't have time to go over each post.

GO DUKE!

[ncexnyc]

What's so hard to understand about this being TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of the Wall situation??

You know you have a limited number of days in which you can contact recruits in April, WHOEVER they may be. You know this MONTHS ahead of time. To decide to use this time hawking a book, which you could do ANYTIME, instead of leaving it open to pursue whatever recruits might be available, doesn't seem to be the best use of that time.

It's a little like traveling to a vacation destination, and spending your time there in a movie theater.
You mean like Cannes?

[El_Diablo]

Chicago 1995, you have proof that K missed the meeting with Wall or is it your opinion that the meeting didn't take place because of K's book tour? You are saying that the missed meeting was K's fault because of the book tour, where did you get your info? Are you also saying that K called Wall and scrapped the meeting because he couldn't make it? Do you have proof the meeting was ever scheduled or, exactly what are you saying?

Are you serious??? Read what he bolded. His gripe is the scheduling of a book tour during the open recruiting period, not with the specific ramifications on this meeting.

[Duke4Ever32]

You mean like Cannes?

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Park City. ;)

[Edouble]

Are you serious??? Read what he bolded. His gripe is the scheduling of a book tour during the open recruiting period, not with the specific ramifications on this meeting.

I think verga was being sarcastic, at least I really hope he was.

[yancem]

Chicago 1995, you have proof that K missed the meeting with Wall or is it your opinion that the meeting didn't take place because of K's book tour? You are saying that the missed meeting was K's fault because of the book tour, where did you get your info? Are you also saying that K called Wall and scrapped the meeting because he couldn't make it? Do you have proof the meeting was ever scheduled or, exactly what are you saying?

Wow! I'm beginning to thing that people are relying to posts they aren't even reading!!!! Take the supposed meeting with Wall out of the equation. We don't know if there was or wasn't a meeting or if there was if it happen or not or if it was canceled, who canceled it. The point is, if a recruit, any recruit, had wanted to meet with K, there would have been a potential problem because he was on his book tour. I don't blame the man for trying to sell his book but it would seem like during the limited contact period is not the best time to be on a traveling book tour! There may or may not end up being any negative effects from K being other wise engaged during the contact period but why take that risk when there doesn't seem to be any real reason that the book tour couldn't have been postponed a few days?

[gep]

I've tried to keep up with this thread recently as best as I can. [1] Who knows Coach K's recruiting strategy. Maybe he feels he has all he "needs"... after all, others have posted that Duke entered the Wall "sweepstakes" late. If late, then maybe Wall wasn't in Coach K's plans anyway... so if he misses, it wasn't a do-or-die target. [2] If Coach K feels like he had all the recruiting he needed locked up, then the book tour wasn't expected to mess with recruiting at all. This last-minute Wall frenzy... well, that may be what it is...a frenzy. I don't know... but why was Duke "late to the party" on Wall. Maybe that lends some insight into the current situation. [3] Watzone's brief blurb implies that the postponement of the meeting was by "both sides". So... maybe Coach K and Wall did talk a bit, and it wasn't a problem for either to postpone the so-called meeting. Maybe, as others have posted, that the SAT was more of an issue than expected.

I'd like to give both sides the benefit of the doubt... I always thought that Coach K and his staff have recruiting and team plans far in advance... not year-to-year as most other teams do. So, if Coach K felt he was good with recruiting for now... the book tour makes sense. Then the Wall situaiton crops up... and everyone is up in a tizzy. What if Calapari didn't move... would Wall have been "locked up" with Memphis? Then all this stuff is unnecessary...?

[stickdog]

Hi,

I remember a while back, can't remember the athlete, but basketball coach Dr. Tom Davis at Stanford offered (?) a scholarship to a kid who was then not admitted by the University and he wound up at USC. I think this was the final straw and Dr. Davis left the Farm. This is long enough ago that I don't remember if Dr. Davis actually offered the scholarship or wanted to offer so that he felt he could be competitive in the Pac-10?

If Coach K offers John Wall a scholarship are there any strings attached by the Admissions dept or has he already checked or how does that work? I would think that a student who just qualifies by NCAA standards won't necessarily be admitted because of Duke standards. I know that Sean Dockery didn't meet normal Duke standards, but I think that admit was being worked on for a while. I also don't know if he just squeaked by NCAA standards or was on the lower end of Duke standards or what have you. Any insight how this works? It seems odd to me that a student who has not been through an SAT test can seriously be considered for admission. Just because a student can handle the stress of being in competition does not mean that will transfer to test taking success.

Back in the day there were "Presidential Admits" too. I remember President Sanford talking about them or was it H. Keith H. Brody, one of them did (or maybe both)? President Keohane might have eradicated the practice. If it is still in practice maybe Coach K has some agreement such that President Brodhead will use one of his Presidential admits as long as John clears NCAA eligibility requirements?

I am looking forward to what looks like (keeping fingers crossed) John donning the Royal Duke Blue. I was just wondering how this worked. I don't know if this specific point was already talked about on this thread, I apologize if I am going over old territory, but this has turned into a long thread and I don't have time to go over each post.

GO DUKE!

Kewl question.

[NSDukeFan]

The point I was trying to make in the post you quote was pretty clear.

I think K made a mistake scheduling the book tour such that it conflicted with the April open recruiting period. If John Wall had signed a letter of intent with Duke in November, I'd still think he made a mistake. There's no reason to create a conflict like this in case something comes up such that you need to use these open days to visit recruits. By scheduling the book tour in this way, K couldn't recruit in person for a large chunk of the open period when his rivals and competators were not hamstrung in the same way.

Do I know more about recruiting than K does? Obviously not, and I've not suggested that, no matter what you might try to say to impeach my credibility. I think, with regard to this one aspect of our recruiting, K put himself at an unnecessary disadvantage.

Frankly, I don't see how this is controversial or something about which there can be much disagreement. K has a limited number of days over the course of the year that he can go visit recruits and have contact with them, their families and coaches in the recruits comfort zone. Instead of utilizing those days, or leaving the possibility to utilize those days if need be, K agreed to a book tour. That, to me, is pretty clearly a mistake. I'd be happy to hear why it isn't.

I must admit I don't know how many days there are open for recruiting and do not know if every coach spends every one of those days visiting recruits, or only all of the super recruiters that are much better than coach K (sorry that was a bit sarcastic as I think K does quite well recruiting.)

I am wondering if there is an opportunity for a coach to do something else on one of those days or if the coach is required by that team's internet board posters to spend every one of those days wooing recruits. Is there a point where a coach that does fairly well would be given the benefit of the doubt and would be allowed by the fan base to do something else on one of those days?

[-jk]

Folks, please, take a deep breath and relax. Let's keep this discussion civil or we'll need to close this thread down for a day or two.

Thanks,

-jk

[moonpie23]

Do I know more about recruiting than K does? Obviously not, .

THANK YOU !! ......case CLOSED...

[blueprofessor]

I must admit I don't know how many days there are open for recruiting and do not know if every coach spends every one of those days visiting recruits, or only all of the super recruiters that are much better than coach K (sorry that was a bit sarcastic as I think K does quite well recruiting.)

I am wondering if there is an opportunity for a coach to do something else on one of those days or if the coach is required by that team's internet board posters to spend every one of those days wooing recruits. Is there a point where a coach that does fairly well would be given the benefit of the doubt and would be allowed by the fan base to do something else on one of those days?
The questions in the second paragraph have already been answered by
Coach K's actually being on the book tour.He is doing something else on not just one of those days but on every one of those days.The fan base does not schedule; K has a personal staff to handle such matters.

How about a theoretical trade--off,however, that might have helped recruiting and the book promotion?
Of the 10 days (in the 2 present periods) open for visits with recruits, K gives 4 hours to travel and visit with Wall (and maybe 2 or 3 hours with other targets who have not signed ) and he and his charming co-author get
the other 233 hours to celebrate the book tour.That way he would then have met with the top pg Wall and mom and mentor the second time. Doesn't seem unfair or disruptive to K and K certainly can do what he wishes as he is the boss...but we do need a pg ,or is this rather long thread about the critical need for a dominating big man? The nearest rattlesnake theory?

Best---Blueprofessor:)

[rotogod00]

What's so hard to understand about this being TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of the Wall situation??

You know you have a limited number of days in which you can contact recruits in April, WHOEVER they may be. You know this MONTHS ahead of time. To decide to use this time hawking a book, which you could do ANYTIME, instead of leaving it open to pursue whatever recruits might be available, doesn't seem to be the best use of that time.

It's a little like traveling to a vacation destination, and spending your time there in a movie theater.

As an extreme example, what if Josh Smith (the kid who could arguably make the biggest impact on Duke basketball in 2010) said, for whatever reason, that the ONLY time he could meet with K was during this time in April. Because of this book tour, K unfortunately cannot sit down with him for a face-to-face. This undoubtedly would set us back, and probably eliminate us, in his recruitment.

This is the point that Chicago and Duke4Ever are arguing.

[ikiru36]

I must admit I don't know how many days there are open for recruiting and do not know if every coach spends every one of those days visiting recruits, or only all of the super recruiters that are much better than coach K (sorry that was a bit sarcastic as I think K does quite well recruiting.)

I am wondering if there is an opportunity for a coach to do something else on one of those days or if the coach is required by that team's internet board posters to spend every one of those days wooing recruits. Is there a point where a coach that does fairly well would be given the benefit of the doubt and would be allowed by the fan base to do something else on one of those days?

Coach K clearly owes it to us. (Maybe even more than G does.)
:rolleyes:

P.S. Not to mention that in our given scenario, the way Coach K was spending this "wasted" recruiting day could be argued as intended to give Duke Basketball an especially high profile at this supposedly unequivocally, entirely predictably oh-so-essential recruiting moment in time. Which other coach was presenting a book about his experience working with the greatest players in the world, likely idols to many of his recruits... including a National TV appearance?

Re: this thread, the past few days in particular, I'm willing to admit that when I have lots of strong opinions, based primarily on extrapolations from assorted internet rumours, it's probably more a Rorschach about me, my biases, my hopes, my defensive tendencies, than about anything actually occurring in the real world. And the fact that I tend to only focus on the 25% of the time these hunches turned out to be correct in the past still doesn't make them any more than (in this case, to me, seemingly mean-spirited) hunches.

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[moonpie23]

again......a lot of you are ASSUMING that K called off the meeting or could not make the meeting (if indeed there WAS a meeting)

[jv001]

again......a lot of you are ASSUMING that K called off the meeting or could not make the meeting (if indeed there WAS a meeting)

You are correct. Any opinion we have on this so called missed meeting is an assumption and we know what people say about assuming. I have been a Duke fan many, many years and have seen Coach K put his life on hold for Duke University and to say that he let Duke down. Because he missed a possible meeting with a young kid that has never done anything for Duke University. Maybe John Wall will come to Duke and lead us to a National Championship. Maybe he won't, but I'm not going to question our HOF Coach over this. Duke will be Duke if John Wall picks KY, unc, Miami. So life will go on and we will have the next play. Go Duke!

[blueprofessor]

and that Coach K will be able to use his charisma to relax and ,perhaps, sign those targets.When focused, he is as good as anyone.
No matter who was unavailable for whatever meeting and even though the book tour could have been at a better time, I am counting on a rescheduled Wall meeting and a charming K to keep us at the top of Wall's choices.
There is a good deal of flux in the KY situation---old recruits not coming,players possibly going early, new recruits coming--- that it may appear chaotic to Wall and Clifton, compared to Duke where Hendo is the only major unknown regarding the expected roster.That must help us. Wall wants a stable environment next year and a solid team that he can complement and vice versa.

Best---Blue "Hoping" Prof:)

[BD80]

Or just post reflexively to shout down criticism of K?

My post clearly says that I think the conflict between the book tour and the open recruiting period was a mistake REGARDLESS OF THE JOHN WALL NON-MEETING. ... During one of the limited periods where a coach can have off-campus contact with a recruit, K limited himself and his opportunties to meet recruits generally in order to sell his book, while coaches like Calipari and Donovan (among others) were actually on the road recruiting.

Again, I don't see how this is that controversial. The book tour could have been scheduled such that K wouldn't have had the conflict. That it wasn't is a mistake.

When should it have been scheduled? Specifically when would you have scheduled it? Give us the dates and cities.

They released the book to coincide with the Final Four - an understandable marketing strategy. I am guessing Coach K was unwilling to have the book tour earlier, because of a potential conflict with coaching.

Perhaps you challenge whether Coach K should be writing and publishing books at all. I happen to think his books are good for the University in general and for the basketball program specifically. They add to his cache, which improves his ability to recruit. I believe the recent book, detailing his experiences with THE FRIGGIN' OLYMPIC TEAM - KOBE, MELO, et al - will be good for recruiting, as will his national tour - which increases his national exposure.

I prefer that Coach K is different than the sycophants like Calipari and Donovan. If he wants to spend his time building the brand rather than waiting in line to kiss the arse of an 18 year old - OK. What recruiting opportunities did he miss exactly? Should he give up sleeping in case a recruit wants to chat at night?

What gets to me, and I believe other posters, is your willingness to criticize Coach K with little or no reason. The guy is a West Point grad, a contributor to Duke's business school, a recognized expert in "leadership." Oh yeah, he is on comfortable pace to be the winningest college basketball coach of all time. Yet you find yourself qualified to criticize his ability to schedule and prioritize?

You have no idea of the details of Coach K's scheduling, nor of the details of the meeting or its rescheduling. Why rush to criticize? Perhaps the reason some don't read your posts carefully is that we are trying to skim past he negativity and find something worthwhile.

[geraldsneighbor]

Someone just feel the temperature get turned up? I think getting Wall is a lot more important now for the sole reason we have 3 guards going into next year.

[moonpie23]

but not a true point guard...

[jv001]

Someone just feel the temperature get turned up? I think getting Wall is a lot more important now for the sole reason we have 3 guards going into next year.

I think Coach K knew we were in need of a pg even if Gerald had not turned pro. So I guess the temperature has been turned up for awhile now. While it's important, it's not life threatening. Looks like Nolan will need another summer of improvement and Kyle will play at the 3 some next year. Go Duke!

[ndkjr70]

Oh please come here Wall. I don't want to sit through another drubbing in the Sweet 16.

[Grey Devil]

Or just post reflexively to shout down critcism of K?



Reflexively? Sorry, but I don't post reflexively. I've been a reader of the DBR since the Juliovision days and maybe only posted once or twice then. I've only been posting since we moved to this new format over two years ago. During that time I've posted just over 70 times, not all to this forum, some to the OTB. And I've been a Duke b-ball fan since the late 60s. Sometimes when I read these boards I feel like an old curmudgeon, even when I don't feel old in body or spirit. But more often lately, especially when I read some posts on this board I think it's others who express more curmudgeionly opinions....especially when I sense that some people express opinions that seem more based on speculation than fact, and who seem to think that their speculation gives them the right to know (to KNOW!) what should have been done in any given situation.

I'm sorry that I seemed to have offended you so much that you assumed I was "reflexively" trying to "shout down criticism of K." And I'm sorry that you aparently took it so personally. My post was meant to express frustration with the tone of recent messages, not just your specific message (but that's all I can reply to in this medium, a single message); a tone that seemed to take on the air of individuals (anyone, not just you) knowing better what should have been done when there's no way you (or others) could know entirely what the range of options K was facing. My sense was that the conversation had turned highly speculative, but that in that speculation, people were making very definitive statements. Always dangerous. (Sound like our recent economic crisis maybe?)

Let me apologize also to you personally. Admittedly I picked your message out of a stream of messages, many of which seemed to me to suffer the same aura of defining absolutes out of pure speculation. But I had had enough. The thread was not moving in a positive direction and I wanted to change it. Apparently I did, because I'm now seeing more posts that trend in a more positive, fact-based direction. I hope it stays that way.

Finally, I want to close with a few thoughts that I think we all need to keep uppermost. This is a fan site. We can and should feel free to express our opinions and beliefs for how to keep Duke Basketball at the top of college basketball. But we are not paid to do that. Others are. Their life blood is all about continuing the traditons of Duke B-ball into the future. And the tradition I'm thinking about is one of winning consistently and performing highly on the national stage, regularly contending for national championships, and doing it in an ethical way with quality people (not just quality basketball players) in a tough academic environment. We don't need to go after every possible recruit with the sole goal of winning the national championship every year. Other programs do that. Many who do cannot maintain the values that we do. That's their role in this ecosystem. Our program is not diminished if we don't make it to the Final Four every year, or even to the Sweet Sixteen occasionally. We are at the top of the heap because of our traditions of winning without compromising our values and our traditions. That's what makes Duke basketball so great. That's why there are so many Duke fans, because they respect the values and tradition of the program, as well as the many victories on the court. (Coincidentally, it's also why so many hate Duke, because they can't win consisitently without compromising higher values.) And that's also why I get so frustrated when I read posts that seem to forget those traditions and those values....when opinions are expressed based on supposition and speculation and appear willing to compromise our values and tradition because of the belief that winning is the sole goal. Yes, we want to win every game. But it's also okay to lose a few now and then because it's not realistic to expect that we can. But more importantly, losing doesn''t compromise our values. Only we can do that.

In short, it would be great if we get John Wall....especially if he exemplifies our tradition and values, and simulatneously can help lead us to a national championship. But if he can't do that, or chooses not to come to Duke, then we will go on and we will still be great.

Grey Devil

[sagegrouse]

I've tried to keep up with this thread recently as best as I can. [1] Who knows Coach K's recruiting strategy. Maybe he feels he has all he "needs"... after all, others have posted that Duke entered the Wall "sweepstakes" late. If late, then maybe Wall wasn't in Coach K's plans anyway... so if he misses, it wasn't a do-or-die target. [2] If Coach K feels like he had all the recruiting he needed locked up, then the book tour wasn't expected to mess with recruiting at all. This last-minute Wall frenzy... well, that may be what it is...a frenzy. I don't know... but why was Duke "late to the party" on Wall. Maybe that lends some insight into the current situation. [3] Watzone's brief blurb implies that the postponement of the meeting was by "both sides". So... maybe Coach K and Wall did talk a bit, and it wasn't a problem for either to postpone the so-called meeting. Maybe, as others have posted, that the SAT was more of an issue than expected.




I think everyone has this wrong. The book tour, in fact, is a key part of the campaign to get John Wall to come to Duke. Wall is a closet intellectual and is super-impressed by a coach who has written several books. The recent book tour shows how successful Coach K has been as an author and as a basketball coach. Maybe K is even subtly hinting that he can help Wall with his own book after Wall's Duke career is over.

sagegrouse

[Verga3]

Finally, I want to close with a few thoughts that I think we all need to keep uppermost. This is a fan site. We can and should feel free to express our opinions and beliefs for how to keep Duke Basketball at the top of college basketball. But we are not paid to do that. Others are. Their life blood is all about continuing the traditons of Duke B-ball into the future. And the tradition I'm thinking about is one of winning consistently and performing highly on the national stage, regularly contending for national championships, and doing it in an ethical way with quality people (not just quality basketball players) in a tough academic environment. We don't need to go after every possible recruit with the sole goal of winning the national championship every year. Other programs do that. Many who do cannot maintain the values that we do. That's their role in this ecosystem. Our program is not diminished if we don't make it to the Final Four every year, or even to the Sweet Sixteen occasionally. We are at the top of the heap because of our traditions of winning without compromising our values and our traditions. That's what makes Duke basketball so great. That's why there are so many Duke fans, because they respect the values and tradition of the program, as well as the many victories on the court. (Coincidentally, it's also why so many hate Duke, because they can't win consisitently without compromising higher values.) And that's also why I get so frustrated when I read posts that seem to forget those traditions and those values....when opinions are expressed based on supposition and speculation and appear willing to compromise our values and tradition because of the belief that winning is the sole goal. Yes, we want to win every game. But it's also okay to lose a few now and then because it's not realistic to expect that we can. But more importantly, losing doesn''t compromise our values. Only we can do that.

Grey Devil


Grey Devil, this part of your earlier post is one of the best I've ever seen regarding our Duke Basketball program and Duke Athletics....period. Thanks for reminding us what is really most important and lasting....and who we are.

[DukeCO2009]

Without further adieu, I present to you the ultimate John Wall thread reference guide. This is just off the top of my head, so feel free to add to to as you see fit.

I. I think we've got him!

A. It's just a gut feeling--but seriously, trust me on this!
B. I have a "source", but I can't tell you who it is.
C. Because he visited coach X on day Y and coach X's team has
scholorship situation Z, I think the cards are in our favor.
D. This was all part of K's grand scheme! Man, he's good!
E. If you play Wall's interview with Writer X backwards, you can clearly
hear John say, "I'm going to Duke"

II. We have no chance

A. He's going to carolina! Everyone prepare for nuclear holocaust!
B. We never had a chance, anyway, so I'm not upset
C. This is all K's fault! He's lost it! WWWWHHHHYYYYYYY?!?!?!

1. Let's buy up all the copies of his new book and burn them!

D. I never wanted him that much in the first place

1. I would rather have Bledsoe, anyway
2. His handlers are crazy
3. He doesn't fit the "Duke" mold

E. Calipari is evil and must be stopped!

III. It's out of our hands

A. Hey, everyone, look how rational I am!
B. I believe in John's ability to make his own decision
C. I'm going to say it's all up to fate so people will listen to me, but all I
really want to to is tell you my wild theory

IV. Who cares?

A. I don't care if he's the best point guard in the nation--WE ARE DUKE!
RAH-RAH-RAH!

1. Stop insulting the current team by saying we'd be better with Wall!
2. You're not a real fan!

B. *SIGH* This thread is immature
C. John who?
D. +1! Let's see if this can break some sort of post record
E. As long as carolina doesn't get him, I don't give a hoot where he goes

[Jumbo]

I've waited more than 1,600 posts and several months to say this, but I would prefer if John Wall does not come to Duke.

This isn't based on any single issue alone, and doesn't mean I would've been against, say, Xavier Henry coming to Duke. But here are my thoughts:
-Wall, as has been discussed has a number of red flags. No single issue should enough be enough to keep him away from Duke. If it were just an issue with grades, I'd want to see him boost them at the end of high school, be assured he'd work hard at Duke, and then move on.
If it were just an issue with his handlers, but his grades, commitment, history of conduct, etc. were all solid, I'd say "K will kick them to the curb" and be excited to mold him.
-If it were just an issue with his attitude, I'd have faith that K wouldn't chase him if he didn't think they could work together, and that the other positive factors would outweigh this concern.
-If it were only a question of the number of high schools he has been through, I'd say that he's had a rough time of it and needs the stability Duke can offer.
-If it were only a question of the fact that he's still considering about nine schools, and seems to add one a week, I'd just say that college decisions are tough for anyone -- athletes or non-athletes -- and that he just needs time.
-If it were just a question of the fact that Clifton's brother went to Baylor and that Calipari -- whom I loathe and am certain violates all kinds of rules while getting away with it -- was involved so heavily, I'd be concerned, but I'd look to his good grades, solid background, etc. and say, "Well, he's a great player. Everyone wants him. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with him as a person."
-If he were just a one-and-done, I'd be concerned that K would be sacrificing relationships, the mission of athletics and -- possibly -- team chemistry just for more talent. But I'd look at all the good things he brings to the group (like Luol Deng brought) and be confident that he could fit in, even for a year. It wouldn't be idea, but I could handle it.

-But it's not any of those one things. It's ALL of them. The only thing we can be sure about is that John Wall is a tremendous basketball player. Otherwise? He's made it clear that he is one-and-done and has no intention of even attempting to graduate, his history is filled with controversy, his academic profile is shaky at best, we can only imagine what Calipari is offering him, he keeps adding schools to his list, he has to have the ball in his hands, and he's be joining a veteran, close-knit team as a freshman and suddenly would be controlling the ball, who gets it and how often they get it.

To me, it's just not worth it. Would John Wall be the difference between a national title and a Tourney exit that might come before the Final Four? Perhaps. Has this kid lived a tough life, and would I like to see him turn things around? Absolutely.

But I just don't think Duke is the best fit, for him or for Duke. I'd rather see how much Nolan Smith can develop over the summer, rather than be forced to come off the bench. I'd rather see what Jon Scheyer can do at the point with a full summer to prepare to play that position. I'd rather see Kyle Singler move to the 3, which will enable us to go big, show different looks and use Kyle in all sorts of different ways. I'd rather K stick with the team he has molded, not introduce a potentially difficult element and see how far we can go.

And believe me, even without Wall, we can go far. Sure, Duke could use more depth in the backcourt. And without Wall, an ACC title will be tougher (although I still think Duke would be the favorite). But I'd rather see what Duke can achieve without Wall rather than make all the sacrifices necessary to get him here and keep him, and the team, happy. I'd rather Coach K go out and find a point guard -- someone who has asked out of an LOI because of a coach leaving, Bledsoe (if his issues are purely academic-related and if he has made progress in that area) or an Andre Buckner type.

I understand that virtually all of you feel otherwise, and I understand why you do. This is just my opinion, and I don't expect to convince anyone to change. And if John Wall does end up at Duke, I'll root as hard as anyone for his success and the team's success. But I guess I just don't think one season's worth of wins and losses is as important as all the other issues I mentioned.

[dubayuw]

He's made it clear that he is one-and-done and has no intention of even attempting to graduate, his history is filled with controversy, his academic profile is shaky at best, we can only imagine what Calipari is offering him, he keeps adding schools to his list, he has to have the ball in his hands, and he's be joining a veteran, close-knit team as a freshman and suddenly would be controlling the ball, who gets it and how often they get it.

Few things:
1) I have always heard Wall say he is staying at least 1 or 2 years, but i think he will only stay one.
2) He has made it clear that he would like to graduate but not while playing basketball, I heard him say that he wants to come back later and finish.
3) As for the controlling the ball thing, I completely trust John to run our team as PG and I would imagine K does too. Watching him at Nike Hoop Summit, I saw an unselfish athlete who could create for himself and others.

[CameronBornAndBred]

And if John Wall does end up at Duke, I'll root as hard as anyone for his success and the team's success. But I guess I just don't think one season's worth of wins and losses is as important as all the other issues I mentioned.
I doubt coming from a mod it will make the argument any better, but you voiced my opinion better than I did. It feels too much like selling our soul.

[Chicago 1995]

When should it have been scheduled? Specifically when would you have scheduled it? Give us the dates and cities.

They released the book to coincide with the Final Four - an understandable marketing strategy. I am guessing Coach K was unwilling to have the book tour earlier, because of a potential conflict with coaching.

This just isn't that hard. Instead of scheduling dates between April 9 to 12 and April 17 to 22, I'd have scheduled things for April 8, April 13 to 16 and after April 22. I just don't get why the thought that K knowingly scheduling this conflict was a mistake is so controversial? Why are people so defensive when Coach K is criticized? He's a great coach. We're lucky to have him. He's not perfect. He, like everyone else, can improve.

Further, the game isn't static. The environment isn't static. K, like everyone else, has to evolve, and discussions of areas for improvement would be part of that evolutionary process. How all coaches have to adapt as the game changes. Some historically great coaches -- most notably K's mentor Bob Knight -- stop evolving and get left behind by the game.


Perhaps you challenge whether Coach K should be writing and publishing books at all. I happen to think his books are good for the University in general and for the basketball program specifically. They add to his cache, which improves his ability to recruit. I believe the recent book, detailing his experiences with THE FRIGGIN' OLYMPIC TEAM - KOBE, MELO, et al - will be good for recruiting, as will his national tour - which increases his national exposure.

We don't have any idea to what extent the Olympic experience will help recruiting. I think it very likely helped, but I'd also posit that the time the Olympic experience took away from Ks coaching at Duke may well have hurt our recruiting while he was actually the Olympic coach. There's no way to know, but I suspect that it's a net gain overall.

I've got no problem with him writing books, but I'll be clear that I'd prefer that his publicity tours to sell his books don't conflict with the recruiting calendar the way this tour did.


I prefer that Coach K is different than the sycophants like Calipari and Donovan. If he wants to spend his time building the brand rather than waiting in line to kiss the arse of an 18 year old - OK. What recruiting opportunities did he miss exactly? Should he give up sleeping in case a recruit wants to chat at night?

First, what you prefer is nice, but what recruits prefer is far more important. Further, meeting with a kid and his family doesn't make Cal or Billy a synchophant. Every coach does that. Why would K want to run the risk of a conflict arising here when the tour could have been tweaked slightly to avoid the conflict? Why would you want to give Cal or Roy or Billy or Gary the ammunition to say to a kid "I'm here recruiting you; K's selling books on Charlie Rose. Who do you matter to more?"


What gets to me, and I believe other posters, is your willingness to criticize Coach K with little or no reason. The guy is a West Point grad, a contributor to Duke's business school, a recognized expert in "leadership." Oh yeah, he is on comfortable pace to be the winningest college basketball coach of all time. Yet you find yourself qualified to criticize his ability to schedule and prioritize?

You have no idea of the details of Coach K's scheduling, nor of the details of the meeting or its rescheduling. Why rush to criticize? Perhaps the reason some don't read your posts carefully is that we are trying to skim past he negativity and find something worthwhile.

As I suggested earlier in the thread, I'm willing to bet that you either criticized Bill Clinton or George Bush, and based on this paragraph, you had no basis to do so and shouldn't have dared to question either of their policy decisions. Yet you did. Why would K be anymore above criticism and discussion?

No man is above reproach. I'm certainly not, and I've been getting plenty of it on this thread. K isn't perfect, and there's nothing wrong with questioning his decisions and discussing what he's done right and wrong. I suspect that a recognized expert in leadership would readily admit that point.

What continues to disappoint me is that there are so many who seem absolutely unwilling to admit that K might have made a mistake or that things aren't perfect at Duke. Is it that scary to consider? I don't get it. People aren't taking shots at him personally. I haven't seen very many unfair questions raised on this board. Yet, every question is taken as though we're insulting his family and questioning his character. It is so over defensive that it doesn't make sense.

Feel free to ignore my posts. You seem to just want to be part of the echo chamber that's shouting "We're great!" "K rules!" and "Duke rocks!" back and forth, and there's nothing wrong with that. At the same time, don't think that's indicative or all or even most Duke fans.

[J.Blink]

I registered just to comment on this thread...

First of all, hear hear to Jumbo. I've been waiting WEEKS for someone to say that.

Secondly--it's not worth the drama IMHO. I only started really reading DBR, etc about 2 years ago. Soon enough, it was the midst of the Patrick Patterson drama. Now it's the midst of the John Wall drama. Makes sense to me--between the multitude of pay recruiting "news" sites and a lot of obsessive fans (myself included!) this stuff just spirals out of control.

None of us know truthfully know what John Wall is like as a person. None of us know exactly what K sees in him. Nobody knows if K missed a meeting due to his book tour, if it was mutual, or what. We know only what we can get through the news...and from this media circus around, about, and directly involving Wall and his handlers, I say, enough already.

Lastly with regards to Coach K's book tour... I have to agree that it could not have hurt for him to be on the recruiting trail instead. Somebody earlier in the thread made a (I believe sarcastic) comment along the lines of "Clearly Coach K owes us -- just like Henderson does." Well, Coach K DOES owe Duke being on the recruiting trail. I'm not going to pretend like I know what's going on behind the scenes in recruiting, but I can't help that think that 20 years ago...or even 5-10 years ago...Coach K wouldn't have been scheduling book tours during the increasingly limited number of recruiting days. ~shrug~

[Kewlswim]

Hello,

1) In Coach K I trust, he wants him to play for Duke, I want him to play for Duke.

2) It is hard to know all the facts and what is made up by the media, etc.

3) People close to the situation in the Duke Basketball Office feel he will make a positive impact on the team and Duke community as a whole next year.

All that being said, nobody has allayed my fears that he will get a nod from Coach K and the admissions office will deny John's ability to matriculate. I just don't know enough about how that system works. It seems like a black box. It also seems like there are two (maybe more?) sets of rules depending on who you are.

GO DUKE!

[mgtr]

I doubt coming from a mod it will make the argument any better, but you voiced my opinion better than I did. It feels too much like selling our soul.

Right on target.

[BlueintheFace]

I've waited more than 1,600 posts and several months to say this, but I would prefer if John Wall does not come to Duke.

This surprises me greatly Jumbo. If I had a dollar for every time you have said something to the effect of, "I'm pretty sure Coach K knows what he is doing and I trust that he will make the right decision," ... well, I'd be a pretty wealthy man.

K obviously prefers that Wall does come to Duke. Aren't you essentially saying that you disagree with K's choice to offer the kid a scholarship.

I should note, it has been 1600+ posts and I still am not sure whether or not I want him at Duke or not, so I am not disagreeing with you. I am just VERY surprised to see you seemingly second guess a K decision regarding recruiting.

[Jumbo]

This surprises me greatly Jumbo. If I had a dollar for every time you have said something to the effect of, "I'm pretty sure Coach K knows what he is doing and I trust that he will make the right decision," ... well, I'd be a pretty wealthy man.

K obviously prefers that Wall does come to Duke. Aren't you essentially saying that you disagree with K's choice to offer the kid a scholarship.

I should note, it has been 1600+ posts and I still am not sure whether or not I want him at Duke or not, so I am not disagreeing with you. I am just VERY surprised to see you seemingly second guess a K decision regarding recruiting.

I suppose you don't read my posts very closely, then. Rarely do I just say "trust K." I've disagreed with specific things for years. That doesn't mean I feel the need to voice every disagreement, or that I'm right every time when I disagree.

But yes, you're correct in that I'm saying I disagree with K's decision to offer him a scholarship. I don't think it's worth it, for all the reasons I mentioned. If Wall comes, and Duke wins a title, maybe I'll feel differently. But maybe I won't -- as I said, I care about more than just wins and losses with Duke basketball. Or at least I hope I do.

[superdave]

So in the GH thread someone mentioned G making Nba dollars for a year before the Nba lockout. And I've read a lot of Nba folks who believe a long lockout is inevitable in order to bleed the players back down to rational salary levels.

If the Nba lock out its players after next season, could all those guys who want to declare for the draft after next year's college season wind up sticking around college an extra year?

In other words, might we ave Wall for two years because he CAN'T go to the Nba?

Super "It's certainly a possibility" Dave

[Indoor66]

This just isn't that hard. Instead of scheduling dates between April 9 to 12 and April 17 to 22, I'd have scheduled things for April 8, April 13 to 16 and after April 22. I just don't get why the thought that K knowingly scheduling this conflict was a mistake is so controversial? Why are people so defensive when Coach K is criticized? He's a great coach. We're lucky to have him. He's not perfect. He, like everyone else, can improve.

Further, the game isn't static. The environment isn't static. K, like everyone else, has to evolve, and discussions of areas for improvement would be part of that evolutionary process. How all coaches have to adapt as the game changes. Some historically great coaches -- most notably K's mentor Bob Knight -- stop evolving and get left behind by the game.



We don't have any idea to what extent the Olympic experience will help recruiting. I think it very likely helped, but I'd also posit that the time the Olympic experience took away from Ks coaching at Duke may well have hurt our recruiting while he was actually the Olympic coach. There's no way to know, but I suspect that it's a net gain overall.

I've got no problem with him writing books, but I'll be clear that I'd prefer that his publicity tours to sell his books don't conflict with the recruiting calendar the way this tour did.



First, what you prefer is nice, but what recruits prefer is far more important. Further, meeting with a kid and his family doesn't make Cal or Billy a synchophant. Every coach does that. Why would K want to run the risk of a conflict arising here when the tour could have been tweaked slightly to avoid the conflict? Why would you want to give Cal or Roy or Billy or Gary the ammunition to say to a kid "I'm here recruiting you; K's selling books on Charlie Rose. Who do you matter to more?"



As I suggested earlier in the thread, I'm willing to bet that you either criticized Bill Clinton or George Bush, and based on this paragraph, you had no basis to do so and shouldn't have dared to question either of their policy decisions. Yet you did. Why would K be anymore above criticism and discussion?

No man is above reproach. I'm certainly not, and I've been getting plenty of it on this thread. K isn't perfect, and there's nothing wrong with questioning his decisions and discussing what he's done right and wrong. I suspect that a recognized expert in leadership would readily admit that point.

What continues to disappoint me is that there are so many who seem absolutely unwilling to admit that K might have made a mistake or that things aren't perfect at Duke. Is it that scary to consider? I don't get it. People aren't taking shots at him personally. I haven't seen very many unfair questions raised on this board. Yet, every question is taken as though we're insulting his family and questioning his character. It is so over defensive that it doesn't make sense.

Feel free to ignore my posts. You seem to just want to be part of the echo chamber that's shouting "We're great!" "K rules!" and "Duke rocks!" back and forth, and there's nothing wrong with that. At the same time, don't think that's indicative or all or even most Duke fans.

I think I just heard a horse die!

[kramerbr]

I registered just to comment on this thread...

First of all, hear hear to Jumbo. I've been waiting WEEKS for someone to say that.

Secondly--it's not worth the drama IMHO. I only started really reading DBR, etc about 2 years ago. Soon enough, it was the midst of the Patrick Patterson drama. Now it's the midst of the John Wall drama. Makes sense to me--between the multitude of pay recruiting "news" sites and a lot of obsessive fans (myself included!) this stuff just spirals out of control.

None of us know truthfully know what John Wall is like as a person. None of us know exactly what K sees in him. Nobody knows if K missed a meeting due to his book tour, if it was mutual, or what. We know only what we can get through the news...and from this media circus around, about, and directly involving Wall and his handlers, I say, enough already.

Lastly with regards to Coach K's book tour... I have to agree that it could not have hurt for him to be on the recruiting trail instead. Somebody earlier in the thread made a (I believe sarcastic) comment along the lines of "Clearly Coach K owes us -- just like Henderson does." Well, Coach K DOES owe Duke being on the recruiting trail. I'm not going to pretend like I know what's going on behind the scenes in recruiting, but I can't help that think that 20 years ago...or even 5-10 years ago...Coach K wouldn't have been scheduling book tours during the increasingly limited number of recruiting days. ~shrug~

Actually we do know that K did not miss the meeting because of his book tour. He was in Durham and the meeting was rescheduled for better or for worse. Some goofball posted that rumor on his site and everyone believed it because it was on this wonderfully credible source called the "Internet".

K has also still been on the recruiting trail along with the rest of the staff. Duke is simply keeping things on the downlow as far as who and when they are visiting prospects. Certain coaches have taken it upon themselves to use negative recruiting tactics and it is probably more beneficial to Duke to not let everyone know what their plans are.

[Bob Green]

K has also still been on the recruiting trail along with the rest of the staff. Duke is simply keeping things on the downlow as far as who and when they are visiting prospects.

Post like this one is what makes DBR a wonderful place to hang out. Thanks for an excellent post that negates a ton of "the sky is falling" attitude, which has been communicated ad nauseum in this thread and several other recruiting threads.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

So in the GH thread someone mentioned G making Nba dollars for a year before the Nba lockout. And I've read a lot of Nba folks who believe a long lockout is inevitable in order to bleed the players back down to rational salary levels.

If the Nba lock out its players after next season, could all those guys who want to declare for the draft after next year's college season wind up sticking around college an extra year?

In other words, might we ave Wall for two years because he CAN'T go to the Nba?

Super "It's certainly a possibility" Dave
Yup, that was me and I had the same thought. While I generally agree with Jumbo's opinion above, if we do happen to get Wall, he better pay attention to his studies next year and not flunk out thinking he is a one and done only to find out he's "stuck at Duke" for 2 years (he should be so lucky).

[OZZIE4DUKE]

which has been communicated ad nauseum
The only thing that should be repeated ad nauseum is "Go To Hell carolina! Go To Hell!" See the HPR #9F. :D:D:D:D

[dukemsu]

I must admit than when I first saw the news that K was embarking on a book tour during the recruiting period that I was concerned. It sure doesn't look good from the outside. But you can say the same thing about the Olympics, XM show, or K's other committments that are "outside" Duke Proper.

I have come to believe, however, that all of these seemingly ancillary pursuits are indeed part of K's overall Duke program. Whether you believe that helps or hurts in recruiting, well, that's up to the individual much the same as the Wojo Can't Coach Bigs argument, which I find hilarious.

As for Wall, I think it's amazing that a kid so few of us have seen play in a meaningful game (I don't consider the all-star games to have any particular merit) has generated a thread approaching 100 pages. We are all craving a return to the Final Four and a fourth banner. But it seems to me that we might be putting a bit too much stock in this one kid. Just my opinion.

I guess it's part of the current environment in D1 basketball, especially at the high levels. The pressure to win is so great (particularly for Duke given the perceived lack of recent high-level success and the onslaught from Ol' Roy) that at times I think many fans (myself included) tend to put too much emphasis on any one player.

I don't really know enough about Wall to have an opinion on what he'd do for us. Any time an AAU coach has this much perceived say over a kid, it makes me nervous. But I'll cheer the kid if he puts on the Duke uniform, because if K offers him the opportunity to do such, it means a great deal.

I hope it's all over soon. I really miss having actual games to watch. LGD.

dukemsu

[OZZIE4DUKE]

And now, this tidbit of misinformation ;)
http://www.highschoolot.com/content/story/5013841/

[Lulu]

And now, this tidbit of misinformation ;)
http://www.highschoolot.com/content/story/5013841/

The Shavlik Randolph Foundation Invitational?

[miramar]

I just hope that Rivals is correct when they say that Wall is near a decision. That's probably a good thing one way or another.

[CameronBornAndBred]

The Shavlik Randolph Foundation Invitational?
I believe the GlaxoSmithKline tournament was divided into separate divisions. That was the name of one of them.

[blueprofessor]

And now, this tidbit of misinformation ;)
http://www.highschoolot.com/content/story/5013841/

I can stop drinking myself to sleep over anxiety about JWall's coming to Duke!
I may need a new article tomorrow and I shall consult your new post which hopefully contains a confirming link!:D
Ahh,sanity regained.

Best--Blue "Wall is coming--the first coming" Prof :D

[umdukie]

Anyone who says that they don't want John Wall to come to Duke is out of their mind. Since Duhon, we have not had a single PG that can penetrate and score at will. Wall will help spread the floor and make Scheyer and EWill a lot better since they will be playing their natural positions.

I don't care about his attitude.
I don't care about his grades.
I don't care that he is using Duke as a springboard to the NBA.
I don't care that he is part of the craziest recruiting saga in a decade.
I don't care if there are some ethical standards that need to be sacrificed to get him into Duke.
I don't care how much influence his handlers have over him.

If John Wall comes to Duke, we will instantly become a title contendor. Without him, we are headed for a second round exit.

I can't stand anymore disappointment with the Duke Basketball program. I'm tired of Ol'Roy beating up on us year after year and haters using the same generic arguments against us like we have "no true PG", "we are unathletic" and "we are just a 3 point shooting team".

Duke Basketball needs John Wall a lot more than he needs us. We need him so much it actually hurts.

We can all talk about "standards", "ethics" and "values" all day but that talk will not lead us to another Final Four. John Wall will lead us there.

Coach K should be on his feet begging Wall to come here and instead he is doing a book deal.:mad:

We need a savior. Please come here John.

[COYS]

Duke Basketball needs John Wall a lot more than he needs us. We need him so much it actually hurts.

We can all talk about "standards", "ethics" and "values" all day but that talk will not lead us to another Final Four. John Wall will lead us there.

Coach K should be on his feet begging Wall to come here and instead he is doing a book deal.:mad:

We need a savior. Please come here John.

Um . . . is this a serious post? Those standards, ethics and values are pesky little things, aren't they? They just keep preventing Duke from cheating its was to a final four.

[Jumbo]

Anyone who says that they don't want John Wall to come to Duke is out of their mind. Since Duhon, we have not had a single PG that can penetrate and score at will. Wall will help spread the floor and make Scheyer and EWill a lot better since they will be playing their natural positions.

I don't care about his attitude.
I don't care about his grades.
I don't care that he is using Duke as a springboard to the NBA.
I don't care that he is part of the craziest recruiting saga in a decade.
I don't care if there are some ethical standards that need to be sacrificed to get him into Duke.
I don't care how much influence his handlers have over him.

If John Wall comes to Duke, we will instantly become a title contendor. Without him, we are headed for a second round exit.

I can't stand anymore disappointment with the Duke Basketball program. I'm tired of Ol'Roy beating up on us year after year and haters using the same generic arguments against us like we have "no true PG", "we are unathletic" and "we are just a 3 point shooting team".

Duke Basketball needs John Wall a lot more than he needs us. We need him so much it actually hurts.

We can all talk about "standards", "ethics" and "values" all day but that talk will not lead us to another Final Four. John Wall will lead us there.

Coach K should be on his feet begging Wall to come here and instead he is doing a book deal.:mad:

We need a savior. Please come here John.

Wow. The difference between a title contender and a sure second round exit -- that's certainly not giving much credit to all the talent returning and entering, and it's an awful lot to throw on a guy who has never played a college game. And it's funny, because a lot of the same stuff was said of Greg Monroe. How did Georgetown do this year?

The rest of your post is even more disturbing. If "standards," "ethics" and "values" don't matter, what does? What would it take for you to be turned off by a top-ranked recruit?

Finally, I suggest that if not making the Final Four and Duke's compeition with UNC actually "hurts" you, that you sould find a new hobby.

[CameronCrazy'11]

Everyone should keep in mind that there is loads of misinformation floating around about Wall, some of it vastly exaggerated truths, and some of it downright libelous. There is little reason to believe that if he came to Duke, he would not be a hard worker, team player, and student-athlete. I don't think he's opposed to staying in college, but if he's the likely #1 pick next year, he'll go, just like virtually any guaranteed top 5 pick does.

[Bob Green]

I don't care about his attitude.
I don't care about his grades.
I don't care that he is using Duke as a springboard to the NBA.
I don't care that he is part of the craziest recruiting saga in a decade.
I don't care if there are some ethical standards that need to be sacrificed to get him into Duke.
I don't care how much influence his handlers have over him.


"It is not whether you win or lose, it is how you play the game." I was taught that saying as a child playing Little League Baseball. It was true then and it is true now.

I don't want John Wall if it means Duke has to sacrifice ethics and standards.

[turnandburn55]

Duke Basketball needs John Wall a lot more than he needs us. We need him so much it actually hurts.

We can all talk about "standards", "ethics" and "values" all day but that talk will not lead us to another Final Four. John Wall will lead us there.

Coach K should be on his feet begging Wall to come here and instead he is doing a book deal.:mad:

We need a savior. Please come here John.

I think we should all collectively get used to the idea that even if John Wall comes to Duke, we may still end up coming up short of the promised land. I'd even say we're very likely to come up short. The comparison to J-Will is apt, but even Williams struggled at times his freshman year running the point and was worn down in a Sweet 16 exit to FL-- it wasn't until the next year that he took on the mantle of a true "savior".

And let's not kid ourselves either, Batter+CWell+James > Singler+Scheyer+Smith, if for pure tournament experience alone.

With G gone, it's going to take a lot more than just one freshman PG, no matter how excellent.

[-jk]

Anyone who says that they don't want John Wall to come to Duke is out of their mind. Since Duhon, we have not had a single PG that can penetrate and score at will. Wall will help spread the floor and make Scheyer and EWill a lot better since they will be playing their natural positions.

I don't care about his attitude.
I don't care about his grades.
I don't care that he is using Duke as a springboard to the NBA.
I don't care that he is part of the craziest recruiting saga in a decade.
I don't care if there are some ethical standards that need to be sacrificed to get him into Duke.
I don't care how much influence his handlers have over him.

If John Wall comes to Duke, we will instantly become a title contendor. Without him, we are headed for a second round exit.

I can't stand anymore disappointment with the Duke Basketball program. I'm tired of Ol'Roy beating up on us year after year and haters using the same generic arguments against us like we have "no true PG", "we are unathletic" and "we are just a 3 point shooting team".

Duke Basketball needs John Wall a lot more than he needs us. We need him so much it actually hurts.

We can all talk about "standards", "ethics" and "values" all day but that talk will not lead us to another Final Four. John Wall will lead us there.

Coach K should be on his feet begging Wall to come here and instead he is doing a book deal.:mad:

We need a savior. Please come here John.

I think you may be confused. I suspect the team you want to support is in Connecticut. Not Durham.

-jk

[FireOgilvie]

"It is not whether you win or lose, it is how you play the game." I was taught that saying as a child playing Little League Baseball. It was true then and it is true now.

I don't want John Wall if it means Duke has to sacrifice ethics and standards.

John Wall coming to Duke wouldn't mean a sacrifice of ethics and standards. Coach K is recruiting him and has ACTUALLY met with him. Do you really think that Coach K would just sit back and do nothing if Wall didn't attend class, caused a scene on the sidelines, or did something illegal? I don't think he will do those things, but if he did, Coach K would kick him off the team in two seconds. I don't see where the harm is. Gerald Henderson isn't getting his degree, and neither will John Wall. Whether you like it or not, Gerald used Duke as a springboard for the NBA. The difference is that Wall has the talent to do it in one year. It doesn't make him a bad guy.

[Bob Green]

John Wall coming to Duke wouldn't mean a sacrifice of ethics and standards.

Are you sure?


The difference is that Wall has the talent to do it in one year. It doesn't make him a bad guy.

I never said John Wall was a bad guy.

[CameronCrazy'11]

John Wall coming to Duke wouldn't mean a sacrifice of ethics and standards. Coach K is recruiting him and has ACTUALLY met with him. Do you really think that Coach K would just sit back and do nothing if Wall didn't attend class, caused a scene on the sidelines, or did something illegal? I don't think he will do those things, but if he did, Coach K would kick him off the team in two seconds. I don't see where the harm is. Gerald Henderson isn't getting his degree, and neither will John Wall. Whether you like it or not, Gerald used Duke as a springboard for the NBA. The difference is that Wall has the talent to do it in one year. It doesn't make him a bad guy.

FireOgilvie, I couldn't agree with you more. John Wall is a good kid. A lot of his attitude problems arose years ago after his father died. Two people who helped him to get through that period, and adjust his attitude, are his "handlers", the Cliftons, whom Wall describes as father figures in his life.

Wall's mom is sick, and his dad is obviously not around. Do you really expect him to go through the recruitment by himself? I've never seen any evidence, other than the unfounded accusations of posters on the internet, to suggest that Brian Clifton is doing anything but looking out for John's best interest. One of the reasons Clifton likes Duke a lot is because he thinks K and the program will be good for Wall as a player and a person. There are plenty of parents of top recruits who do things 100 times worse than Wall's "handlers," without anyone so much as batting an eye.

Furthermore, do you really think K would want a kid on the team if he thought he would hurt the team or the program in any way? When has K ever compromised his program to lure one recruit for one year? K is far too old and too rich to start selling out now.

[FireOgilvie]

Are you sure?



I never said John Wall was a bad guy.

Maybe I am missing something, but what standards are being compromised? Is it a real standard, or is it an imagined standard by a minority of the fanbase? Last time I checked, Coach K was the one that made the standards. He's also the one recruiting John Wall.

Also, I didn't mean you said he was a bad guy, but several people on this board have implied it.

I find it unbelievable that people are actively and vocally rooting against the head coach to land the best recruit in the country.

Edit: One more point. If John Wall chooses to come to Duke, he knows what he is getting into as far as academics, etc... and he still chose it. That would say something about him.

[JG Nothing]

Maybe I am missing something, but what standards are being compromised? Is it a real standard, or is it an imagined standard by a minority of the fanbase? Last time I checked, Coach K was the one that made the standards.
You need to check again. K does not set the admission standards for Duke. He is a basketball coach not an admissions director. Whether people like it or not, he is recruiting student-athletes. Notice which word comes first. K is responsible for judging the athlete part. The admissions director is ultimately responsible for judging the student part.

[dukelifer]

I think we should all collectively get used to the idea that even if John Wall comes to Duke, we may still end up coming up short of the promised land. I'd even say we're very likely to come up short. The comparison to J-Will is apt, but even Williams struggled at times his freshman year running the point and was worn down in a Sweet 16 exit to FL-- it wasn't until the next year that he took on the mantle of a true "savior".

And let's not kid ourselves either, Batter+CWell+James > Singler+Scheyer+Smith, if for pure tournament experience alone.

With G gone, it's going to take a lot more than just one freshman PG, no matter how excellent.

I agree that the key point here is that while John Wall has talent, he is not a one man basketball team- he cannot penetrate at will and score every time. I promise wherever he goes- John Wall will miss key shots, turn the ball over and have mental lapses. If this happens in a tourney run at the wrong time- his team is not winning a NC. Ask Derrick Rose who played brilliantly until the last couple minutes of the NC game-missed a few key free throws and that was that. John Wall is not a savior- he is basketball player who is very fast and explosive. He passes well and has just an average shooting stroke. His teams have not won State championships and the All Star teams he played for recently are 0-2. Let's not make this kid into something he is not.

[FireOgilvie]

You need to check again. K does not set the admission standards for Duke. He is a basketball coach not an admissions director. Whether people like it or not, he is recruiting student-athletes. Notice which word comes first. K is responsible for judging the athlete part. The admissions director is ultimately responsible for judging the student part.


I totally agree with you. Do you have knowledge that John Wall won't be accepted by the university? I'm guessing Coach K knows the admissions standards.

[lifelongdevil]

His teams have not won State championships and the All Star teams he played for recently are 0-2. Let's not make this kid into something he is not.

They are all star games for crying out loud. blake griffin's team this year was 0-2 in postseason tourneys....i think wed all still take him.

[miramar]

I think you may be confused. I suspect the team you want to support is in Connecticut. Not Durham.

-jk

Or Kentucky.

[speedevil2001]

Maybe I am missing something, but what standards are being compromised? Is it a real standard, or is it an imagined standard by a minority of the fanbase? Last time I checked, Coach K was the one that made the standards. He's also the one recruiting John Wall.

Also, I didn't mean you said he was a bad guy, but several people on this board have implied it.

I find it unbelievable that people are actively and vocally rooting against the head coach to land the best recruit in the country.

Edit: One more point. If John Wall chooses to come to Duke, he knows what he is getting into as far as academics, etc... and he still chose it. That would say something about him.

i hope duke continues to recruit the top players in the country, aka john wall.

[JG Nothing]

I totally agree with you. Do you have knowledge that John Wall won't be accepted by the university? I'm guessing Coach K knows the admissions standards.

I have no knowledge about Wall's prospects for admission to Duke. However, I am sure K has discussed the situation with admissions.

[UrinalCake]

If the Nba lock out its players after next season, could all those guys who want to declare for the draft after next year's college season wind up sticking around college an extra year?

That's a great point, but the lockout itself probably wouldn't start until the end of the NBA season, which is after the time that players have to declare for the draft. The last time an NBA lockout happened I remember thinking how foolish it was for the players that left early to be sitting around not getting paid, instead of playing in college; but they didn't know for sure what would happen at the time they made their decisions to go.

[verga]

i want to make sure my posting was understood. My question of Chicago1995 was to find out what inside information he had that the meeting was cancelled because of K's committment to the book tour. I have read several explanations of what took place, (1) coach K missed the meeting with Wall because of the book tour, (2) coach K called Wall and cancelled the meeting because he was stranded, (3) Wall or Clifton called K and cancelled the meeting and (4) according to John Wall, there was never a meeting in place and if there had been one K was there and ready to proceed with the meeting. So if your contention was that the "tour" was a bad thing regarding Wall's recruitment and if i read your post correctly, it was. Then my question becomes how do you know what took place? If #3 or #4 are correct then your point is mute.:)

[tommy]

Not only that, but it may be moot as well.

[Duke4Ever32]

i want to make sure my posting was understood. My question of Chicago1995 was to find out what inside information he had that the meeting was cancelled because of K's committment to the book tour. I have read several explanations of what took place, (1) coach K missed the meeting with Wall because of the book tour, (2) coach K called Wall and cancelled the meeting because he was stranded, (3) Wall or Clifton called K and cancelled the meeting and (4) according to John Wall, there was never a meeting in place and if there had been one K was there and ready to proceed with the meeting. So if your contention was that the "tour" was a bad thing regarding Wall's recruitment and if i read your post correctly, it was. Then my question becomes how do you know what took place? If #3 or #4 are correct then your point is mute.:)

Dude...John Wall is not the issue in what Chicago1995 was saying. Pretend for this discussion that John Wall doesn't even exist.

The simple point Chicago1995 was making is that when you only have a limited time frame to do something, you shouldn't compromise that time frame by filling it up with other activities. For example, if I'm a tax attorney, I'm not going to schedule my vacation for the first couple weeks of April.

While promoting a book about the Olympics may help Duke recruiting, why not do both? Be available to perform recruiting duties during the few days in April you can do it, and promote your book during the other days. It's not like the recruiting days aren't known well ahead of time.

[Bob Green]

The simple point Chicago1995 was making is that when you only have a limited time frame to do something, you shouldn't compromise that time frame by filling it up with other activities.

The Kramer sums it up best so see Post #1653 (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=289018&postcount=1653).

[dukelifer]

They are all star games for crying out loud. blake griffin's team this year was 0-2 in postseason tourneys....i think wed all still take him.

The point is that as good as Wall may end up- he is still a young basketball player and playing 1 year at Duke will not guarantee Duke success in the postseason. I am simply saying temper the expectations on him. I see a player with talent and also a few important weaknesses- like outside shooting. His not being able to make a decision about where he wants to play is also a concern as this says something about his self confidence. A PG needs to be able to go with his gut and make the right decision in a split second.

[DukieBoy]

I'm sure this was addressed elsewhere, but do you think G leaving will persuade Wall to come now? He knows now that Duke needs him more than ever since we have a paper thin backcourt. And another question. When is he set to announce where he is going.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Pretend for this discussion that John Wall doesn't even exist.
With the size of this thread, that's a gargantuan task.

[Duke4Ever32]

With the size of this thread, that's a gargantuan task.

Yeah, I know. I just meant Chicago1995's point is a valid one. Sure, having previously scheduled activities during a recruiting window may not have mattered in this specific instance with Wall, but as a general rule, it would probably be better for Coach K to be able to recruit during recruiting periods, and not have that time tied up with other events.

[ricks68]

Has anyone noticed, other than myself, that there have been over 212,000 views of this thread already? I mean, like, it exceeds the never-ending thread over on the off topic board by many times the number of views. And that's with over 7 times the number of postings on the off topic thread!:eek:

I guess there is some kind of interest in this situation, huh?

ricks

[mpj96]

The point is that as good as Wall may end up- he is still a young basketball player and playing 1 year at Duke will not guarantee Duke success in the postseason. I am simply saying temper the expectations on him. I see a player with talent and also a few important weaknesses- like outside shooting. His not being able to make a decision about where he wants to play is also a concern as this says something about his self confidence. A PG needs to be able to go with his gut and make the right decision in a split second.

My memory may be going bad on me but I seem to recall that JWill was torn between Duke and Rutgers. He turned out to be a pretty confident and effective pg despite vacillating between the two programs.

I will grant you that as good as JWill was as a frosh he was even better as a soph.

ps. not saying Wall will = JWill, just noting that taking one's time to decide where to go to college does not necessarily equate to weakness on the court.

[dukelifer]

My memory may be going bad on me but I seem to recall that JWill was torn between Duke and Rutgers. He turned out to be a pretty confident and effective pg despite vacillating between the two programs.

I will grant you that as good as JWill was as a frosh he was even better as a soph.

ps. not saying Wall will = JWill, just noting that taking one's time to decide where to go to college does not necessarily equate to weakness on the court.

True enough but Williams had picked Duke before the McDonald's game- and picking between two teams is at least reasonable. John Wall is adding teams and it is almost May.

[umdukie]

http://www.yardbarker.com/college_basketball/articles/Update_on_John_Wall_After_the_Miami_Visit/607889

John Wall will be narrowing his list of schools down to two or three by this Thursday or Friday. There is no indication whatsoever of what those schools will be besides the existing speculation.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that he will be down to these three schools this time next week(in no specific order):
Duke
Kentucky
N.C. State

[geraldsneighbor]

http://www.yardbarker.com/college_basketball/articles/Update_on_John_Wall_After_the_Miami_Visit/607889

John Wall will be narrowing his list of schools down to two or three by this Thursday or Friday. There is no indication whatsoever of what those schools will be besides the existing speculation.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that he will be down to these three schools this time next week(in no specific order):
Duke
Kentucky
N.C. State

I think the 2 or 3 means it'll be Duke and UK or Duke, UK, and unc. Hopefully I'm wrong though.

[BlueintheFace]

I think the 2 or 3 means it'll be Duke and UK or Duke, UK, and unc. Hopefully I'm wrong though.

With absolutely no important information or confidence in my prediction, I will go with:

Duke
Kentucky
Baylor

[KandG]

Anyone who says that they don't want John Wall to come to Duke is out of their mind. Since Duhon, we have not had a single PG that can penetrate and score at will. Wall will help spread the floor and make Scheyer and EWill a lot better since they will be playing their natural positions.

I don't care about his attitude.
I don't care about his grades.
I don't care that he is using Duke as a springboard to the NBA.
I don't care that he is part of the craziest recruiting saga in a decade.
I don't care if there are some ethical standards that need to be sacrificed to get him into Duke.
I don't care how much influence his handlers have over him.

If John Wall comes to Duke, we will instantly become a title contendor. Without him, we are headed for a second round exit.

I can't stand anymore disappointment with the Duke Basketball program. I'm tired of Ol'Roy beating up on us year after year and haters using the same generic arguments against us like we have "no true PG", "we are unathletic" and "we are just a 3 point shooting team".

Duke Basketball needs John Wall a lot more than he needs us. We need him so much it actually hurts.

We can all talk about "standards", "ethics" and "values" all day but that talk will not lead us to another Final Four. John Wall will lead us there.

Coach K should be on his feet begging Wall to come here and instead he is doing a book deal.:mad:

We need a savior. Please come here John.




I'm assuming this is a parody post. Nevertheless, what makes good parody work is when it has grains of truth in it, and the size of this thread and many of the comments reflect that.

Needless to say, I don't agree with the position above at all, but there seem to be many more bandwagoners and entitled fans (and even purportedly "sincere" fans questioning Coach K's priorities and travel schedule in April) that do. Such is the price of a successful national program.

[stickdog]

I've waited more than 1,600 posts and several months to say this, but I would prefer if John Wall does not come to Duke.

This isn't based on any single issue alone, and doesn't mean I would've been against, say, Xavier Henry coming to Duke. But here are my thoughts:
-Wall, as has been discussed has a number of red flags. No single issue should enough be enough to keep him away from Duke. If it were just an issue with grades, I'd want to see him boost them at the end of high school, be assured he'd work hard at Duke, and then move on.
If it were just an issue with his handlers, but his grades, commitment, history of conduct, etc. were all solid, I'd say "K will kick them to the curb" and be excited to mold him.
-If it were just an issue with his attitude, I'd have faith that K wouldn't chase him if he didn't think they could work together, and that the other positive factors would outweigh this concern.
-If it were only a question of the number of high schools he has been through, I'd say that he's had a rough time of it and needs the stability Duke can offer.
-If it were only a question of the fact that he's still considering about nine schools, and seems to add one a week, I'd just say that college decisions are tough for anyone -- athletes or non-athletes -- and that he just needs time.
-If it were just a question of the fact that Clifton's brother went to Baylor and that Calipari -- whom I loathe and am certain violates all kinds of rules while getting away with it -- was involved so heavily, I'd be concerned, but I'd look to his good grades, solid background, etc. and say, "Well, he's a great player. Everyone wants him. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with him as a person."
-If he were just a one-and-done, I'd be concerned that K would be sacrificing relationships, the mission of athletics and -- possibly -- team chemistry just for more talent. But I'd look at all the good things he brings to the group (like Luol Deng brought) and be confident that he could fit in, even for a year. It wouldn't be idea, but I could handle it.

-But it's not any of those one things. It's ALL of them. The only thing we can be sure about is that John Wall is a tremendous basketball player. Otherwise? He's made it clear that he is one-and-done and has no intention of even attempting to graduate, his history is filled with controversy, his academic profile is shaky at best, we can only imagine what Calipari is offering him, he keeps adding schools to his list, he has to have the ball in his hands, and he's be joining a veteran, close-knit team as a freshman and suddenly would be controlling the ball, who gets it and how often they get it.

To me, it's just not worth it. Would John Wall be the difference between a national title and a Tourney exit that might come before the Final Four? Perhaps. Has this kid lived a tough life, and would I like to see him turn things around? Absolutely.

But I just don't think Duke is the best fit, for him or for Duke. I'd rather see how much Nolan Smith can develop over the summer, rather than be forced to come off the bench. I'd rather see what Jon Scheyer can do at the point with a full summer to prepare to play that position. I'd rather see Kyle Singler move to the 3, which will enable us to go big, show different looks and use Kyle in all sorts of different ways. I'd rather K stick with the team he has molded, not introduce a potentially difficult element and see how far we can go.

And believe me, even without Wall, we can go far. Sure, Duke could use more depth in the backcourt. And without Wall, an ACC title will be tougher (although I still think Duke would be the favorite). But I'd rather see what Duke can achieve without Wall rather than make all the sacrifices necessary to get him here and keep him, and the team, happy. I'd rather Coach K go out and find a point guard -- someone who has asked out of an LOI because of a coach leaving, Bledsoe (if his issues are purely academic-related and if he has made progress in that area) or an Andre Buckner type.

I understand that virtually all of you feel otherwise, and I understand why you do. This is just my opinion, and I don't expect to convince anyone to change. And if John Wall does end up at Duke, I'll root as hard as anyone for his success and the team's success. But I guess I just don't think one season's worth of wins and losses is as important as all the other issues I mentioned.

Wall is a truly amazing basketball player. If he really wants to come to Duke and be part of a real team that plays 100% team ball and a real student who actually goes to class and tries to learn, why would you ever want to deny him that opportunity?

Wall's decision, rather than anyone's message board innuendo, will determine whether he is a good fit with Duke University. Coach K handled the Redeem Team, so he can surely handle integrating a fourth back court player at a position of desperate need.

[Indoor66]

I hope there are no suicides if Wall goes somewhere else. I am convinced that he is much more of a savior for Duke BB than Patterson or Monroe would have been. I now understand that with him we are nearly guarenteed another NC.















NOT!

[geraldsneighbor]

I hope there are no suicides if Wall goes somewhere else. I am convinced that he is much more of a savior for Duke BB than Patterson or Monroe would have been. I now understand that with him we are nearly guarenteed another NC.













NOT!


Where are people saying that? Having Wall helps Duke. It is as simple as that. Just like having Patterson and Monroe would have too. No one is raising any banners...

[trinity92]

The point is that as good as Wall may end up- he is still a young basketball player and playing 1 year at Duke will not guarantee Duke success in the postseason. I am simply saying temper the expectations on him. I see a player with talent and also a few important weaknesses- like outside shooting. His not being able to make a decision about where he wants to play is also a concern as this says something about his self confidence. A PG needs to be able to go with his gut and make the right decision in a split second.

I cannot see any connection between Wall's decision making with regard to where he will play and his decision making on the court. They are completely unrelated. Elite high school basketball players, just like most high school seniors, are being asked to make a true decision about how and where they will be living for the very first time. It's their first step into adulthood. I'm not surprised that first step may be tentative.

You have to remember these kids are doing what they do at a level we probably will never reach at what we do, ever. A high school player who is projected to play one year and then be a lottery pick in the NBA is the equivalent of a Supreme Court Justice, if you're a lawyer, a Nobel Laureate, if you're a scientist, and so on. They're doing it at basketball, which depends on the very split second decision making you're questioning Wall possesses. Just as a Nobel scientist might be completely unable to analyze and be successful in social interactions-- a complete buffoon or cringing wallflower if you met him or her at a cocktail party, I submit Wall is at his most comfortable on the court, and his being indecisive about where to go to college says absolutely nothing about his ability to be decisive at PG.

[moonpie23]

it's easy being an NBA star...

just remember, there are a lot more neurosurgeons out there than NBA stars...

[sagegrouse]

I cannot see any connection between Wall's decision making with regard to where he will play and his decision making on the court. They are completely unrelated. Elite high school basketball players, just like most high school seniors, are being asked to make a true decision about how and where they will be living for the very first time. It's their first step into adulthood. I'm not surprised that first step may be tentative.



The other point is that John Wall is being rational by deferring his decision. He has standing scholarship offers from all of his schools of interest. Why should he make a decision until all the facts are known? Carlos Boozer waited almost this long, although Duke believed it had a verbal indication.

Most of these have now come to light:

1. Coaching changes -- wow!
2. Who else is being recruited?
3. Who plans to leave early and who plans to return -- tentative?

The only thing left is if those declaring for the draft decide to return to college. There could be a decision soon.

sagegrouse

[watzone]

The Big Blue Nation is making sure your post makes the rounds Jumbo:) For me, I am a trust in K guy on this one. Having talked with Wall on several occasions, including last night I have certainly gained a different view than the tainted one I had from what permeated the message boards a few years back. It has also helped my opinion to have seen him play in person maybe 16 or 17 times now. You can see a lot of a kids demeanor on the court and I have never seen him act out inappropriately in all of the aforementioned games. Coach K can take this kid and make him into a better man, prepared for life and the NBA. Maybe others can too. But I am not ready to join you and Bomani Jones just yet and label Wall by saying he is not a Duke kid. K in no way wants to kick his handler to the curb as you say and despite his list of schools, Wall is really serious about three or less for those who have studied the situation closely. Wall has made sure not to tip his hand to the media, some of whom have ran with his supposedly sordid past. While he most certainly had some struggles, it doesn't take much to see that he has been moving forward in a positive way for at least two and a half years. The problem with message boards is that past items get so much spin and eventually they become incredibly inaccurate. It seems you have bought into "some" of that, but I do understand where you are coming from. In your opinion of what Duke is about, he doesn't fit and you admitted it was not the view of the whole, but there are several that feel as you do. You stated it's just not worth it in reference to recruiting Wall and alluded to the shaky reputation of Calipari and such. I am of the opinion that Duke shouldn't back away from those connected with certain power brokers and hope that being straight up wins out. We both know this may not happen. I think that the stress of waiting and missing on a couple of kids in the past has all wishing this was over. And we will always have some with the glass half full and some half empty. I cannot tell you for sure how this will turn out, but at this point I think we just let it happen. There will be plenty of time for discussion after the fact and Jumbo might certainly make a good case that what he posted was right. FWIW, I am not sure when you posted this for there are far too may to read through and I simply picked up stickdogs response, including his comments as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbo View Post
I've waited more than 1,600 posts and several months to say this, but I would prefer if John Wall does not come to Duke.

This isn't based on any single issue alone, and doesn't mean I would've been against, say, Xavier Henry coming to Duke. But here are my thoughts:
-Wall, as has been discussed has a number of red flags. No single issue should enough be enough to keep him away from Duke. If it were just an issue with grades, I'd want to see him boost them at the end of high school, be assured he'd work hard at Duke, and then move on.
If it were just an issue with his handlers, but his grades, commitment, history of conduct, etc. were all solid, I'd say "K will kick them to the curb" and be excited to mold him.
-If it were just an issue with his attitude, I'd have faith that K wouldn't chase him if he didn't think they could work together, and that the other positive factors would outweigh this concern.
-If it were only a question of the number of high schools he has been through, I'd say that he's had a rough time of it and needs the stability Duke can offer.
-If it were only a question of the fact that he's still considering about nine schools, and seems to add one a week, I'd just say that college decisions are tough for anyone -- athletes or non-athletes -- and that he just needs time.
-If it were just a question of the fact that Clifton's brother went to Baylor and that Calipari -- whom I loathe and am certain violates all kinds of rules while getting away with it -- was involved so heavily, I'd be concerned, but I'd look to his good grades, solid background, etc. and say, "Well, he's a great player. Everyone wants him. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with him as a person."
-If he were just a one-and-done, I'd be concerned that K would be sacrificing relationships, the mission of athletics and -- possibly -- team chemistry just for more talent. But I'd look at all the good things he brings to the group (like Luol Deng brought) and be confident that he could fit in, even for a year. It wouldn't be idea, but I could handle it.

-But it's not any of those one things. It's ALL of them. The only thing we can be sure about is that John Wall is a tremendous basketball player. Otherwise? He's made it clear that he is one-and-done and has no intention of even attempting to graduate, his history is filled with controversy, his academic profile is shaky at best, we can only imagine what Calipari is offering him, he keeps adding schools to his list, he has to have the ball in his hands, and he's be joining a veteran, close-knit team as a freshman and suddenly would be controlling the ball, who gets it and how often they get it.

To me, it's just not worth it. Would John Wall be the difference between a national title and a Tourney exit that might come before the Final Four? Perhaps. Has this kid lived a tough life, and would I like to see him turn things around? Absolutely.

But I just don't think Duke is the best fit, for him or for Duke. I'd rather see how much Nolan Smith can develop over the summer, rather than be forced to come off the bench. I'd rather see what Jon Scheyer can do at the point with a full summer to prepare to play that position. I'd rather see Kyle Singler move to the 3, which will enable us to go big, show different looks and use Kyle in all sorts of different ways. I'd rather K stick with the team he has molded, not introduce a potentially difficult element and see how far we can go.

And believe me, even without Wall, we can go far. Sure, Duke could use more depth in the backcourt. And without Wall, an ACC title will be tougher (although I still think Duke would be the favorite). But I'd rather see what Duke can achieve without Wall rather than make all the sacrifices necessary to get him here and keep him, and the team, happy. I'd rather Coach K go out and find a point guard -- someone who has asked out of an LOI because of a coach leaving, Bledsoe (if his issues are purely academic-related and if he has made progress in that area) or an Andre Buckner type.

I understand that virtually all of you feel otherwise, and I understand why you do. This is just my opinion, and I don't expect to convince anyone to change. And if John Wall does end up at Duke, I'll root as hard as anyone for his success and the team's success. But I guess I just don't think one season's worth of wins and losses is as important as all the other issues I mentioned.

Stickdog -Wall is a truly amazing basketball player. If he really wants to come to Duke and be part of a real team that plays 100% team ball and a real student who actually goes to class and tries to learn, why would you ever want to deny him that opportunity?

Wall's decision, rather than anyone's message board innuendo, will determine whether he is a good fit with Duke University. Coach K handled the Redeem Team, so he can surely handle integrating a fourth back court player at a position of desperate need.

[RepoMan]

This just isn't that hard. Instead of scheduling dates between April 9 to 12 and April 17 to 22, I'd have scheduled things for April 8, April 13 to 16 and after April 22. I just don't get why the thought that K knowingly scheduling this conflict was a mistake is so controversial? Why are people so defensive when Coach K is criticized?

What you don't seem to want to understand is that you do not know whether the book deal has inhibited his ability to interact with whatever recruits he wants to interact in whatever way he wants to interact with them. I mean, he is not stuck in a jail in Siberia.

[_Gary]

Thanks Watzone! The best post yet in this entire thread, IMHO. Not knowing the kid or the situation in the least except for internet fodder, I feel like you do in that this has to be a "trust in K first" thing. I hope we land Wall.

Gary

[Chicago 1995]

What you don't seem to want to understand is that you do not know whether the book deal has inhibited his ability to interact with whatever recruits he wants to interact in whatever way he wants to interact with them. I mean, he is not stuck in a jail in Siberia.

I thought I'd made this clear, but here it goes again. Your counterpoint does not matter to my position.

Whether or not this inhibited the ability to meet with Harrison Barnes, John Wall or my 22 month old son, I think it was a mistake to create a conflict at all. It could potentially have cost us a chance at a visit with an important recruit, and it opens K to criticism from other coaches about his prioritization. There was no reason for K to put himself in this position.

Further, I'd note that we only have one poster suggesting that Duke actually used the open period to meet with recruits off campus. There have been no reports of any such coming from Duke -- which is fine, I have no problem with the staff playing it close to the vest -- but it's usually harder to keep a cap on such visits from the family, coaching staff or school administrators of the prospect we've visited. I find it a bit odd that if the staff was out meeting with players on the road, we've heard nothing about it.

Even if K was meeting with athletes during the open period, I still think the book tour was a mistake. It could have limited his ability to recruit, and it opens him to negative recruiting from other coaches.

[moonpie23]

There was no reason for K to put himself in this position.




unless it's duly noted, agreed upon, planned for, and written in, that IF ANY recruiting situation came up that needed to be attended to, that coach k would be free and clear to take care of those matters as HE SEES FIT...


i know those kinds of clauses exist commonly.......in fact, as many legalities are involved in his life, someone, SOMEWHERE pointed that out.....and took care of it...


what now?

[Chicago 1995]

unless it's duly noted, agreed upon, planned for, and written in, that IF ANY recruiting situation came up that needed to be attended to, that coach k would be free and clear to take care of those matters as HE SEES FIT...


i know those kinds of clauses exist commonly.......in fact, as many legalities are involved in his life, someone, SOMEWHERE pointed that out.....and took care of it...


what now?

First off, I doubt such a clause would be applied to the book tour, but assuming you were correct for the sake of argument, it's still a mistake.

Rival coaches can point out to a recruit that while I'm standing here talking to you, and I'm meeting with three other potential teammates of yours today, Coach K is selling books. That negative perception is going to resonate with kids a whole lot more than K responding that he could have gotten out of the book tour had he felt he needed to, but he didn't.

From that perspective, the existence of such an out clause would be worse.

[yancem]

First off, I doubt such a clause would be applied to the book tour, but assuming you were correct for the sake of argument, it's still a mistake.

Rival coaches can point out to a recruit that while I'm standing here talking to you, and I'm meeting with three other potential teammates of yours today, Coach K is selling books. That negative perception is going to resonate with kids a whole lot more than K responding that he could have gotten out of the book tour had he felt he needed to, but he didn't.

From that perspective, the existence of such an out clause would be worse.

Dude, you need to simply decide to agree to disagree. I personally think that you make a reasonable point but some people see it differently and at this point rehashing the same argument over and over isn't doing anything but wasting your time (and the time of those of us not arguing with you).

[SupaDave]

I thought I'd made this clear, but here it goes again. Your counterpoint does not matter to my position.

Whether or not this inhibited the ability to meet with Harrison Barnes, John Wall or my 22 month old son, I think it was a mistake to create a conflict at all. It could potentially have cost us a chance at a visit with an important recruit, and it opens K to criticism from other coaches about his prioritization. There was no reason for K to put himself in this position.

Further, I'd note that we only have one poster suggesting that Duke actually used the open period to meet with recruits off campus. There have been no reports of any such coming from Duke -- which is fine, I have no problem with the staff playing it close to the vest -- but it's usually harder to keep a cap on such visits from the family, coaching staff or school administrators of the prospect we've visited. I find it a bit odd that if the staff was out meeting with players on the road, we've heard nothing about it.

Even if K was meeting with athletes during the open period, I still think the book tour was a mistake. It could have limited his ability to recruit, and it opens him to negative recruiting from other coaches.

So what did you do before the internet? I doubt seriously that it is the program's intent to keep you posted on every recruiting crumb of information. Additionally, Coach K has a STAFF to help him with recruiting as they always have which may or may not require K's assistance when meeting or accomodating a recruit.

I mean really, you sound like if Coach misses a recruit's call b/c he was in the bathroom then the whole program is ruined. Let's be rational.

[RepoMan]

I still think the book tour was a mistake. It could have limited his ability to recruit.

Fine, but previously you suggested that it definitely was a mistake because it definitely did limit his ability to recruit, and, as you just have admitted, you don't know whether, in fact, it limited his ability to recruit in any meaningful way.

Look, it's fine to state an opinion--even an opinion based on nothing, but when you claim to be absolutely right, you really ought to know what you are talking about first.

[Chicago 1995]

So what did you do before the internet? I doubt seriously that it is the program's intent to keep you posted on every recruiting crumb of information. Additionally, Coach K has a STAFF to help him with recruiting as they always have which may or may not require K's assistance when meeting or accomodating a recruit.

I mean really, you sound like if Coach misses a recruit's call b/c he was in the bathroom then the whole program is ruined. Let's be rational.

That's not at all what I'm saying, and it's pretty clear that it's not what I'm saying. There's a big difference between your silly hypothetical and the idea that K should keep his calendar conflict-free during one of the limited periods of open contact that a coach and a staff can make off-campus contact with recruits.

It's not the end of the program. It's just an unnecessary mistake.

Besides, K can take his cellphone into the toilet with him. ;)

The part about what I did before the internet is an unnecessary shot that doesn't at all address my point and is aimed at squelching this discussion. We know about *this* conflict, and there's been discussion about it. I think scheduling as K did was a mistake. Others here obviously don't, nor it is clear do they welcome discussion that K might have erred. That's all that's going on here. Like I said a way back in this thread, I am disappointed that there are this many posters who are so defensive of K that they react to quiet discussion of his approach.

[shoutingncu]

http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/demling/2009/04/wall-to-cut-list.html

Does Durham have a beach?

[geraldsneighbor]

If he thinks South Beach University is his best fit, than by all means.

[chrisheery]

http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/demling/2009/04/wall-to-cut-list.html

Does Durham have a beach?

Bunkers at the Wa Duke?

There might be some sand on the shores of the mighty Eno.

[El_Diablo]

http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/demling/2009/04/wall-to-cut-list.html

does durham have a beach?

OMG! Coach K didn't take wall to Jordan Lake! BIG MISTAKE!!! WE'RE FINISHED!!! :eek:


;)

[oj1]

"Winning this one means nothing if you lose yourselves." - Ben Schwartzwalder

[BlueinBlo]

Why doesn't he just cut it down to Duke and Kentucky, we all know he is going to one of the two. He loves the attention and is not going to get it at Miami or Florida.

[CameronBornAndBred]

He should have visited Miami in July.

[dukelifer]

I cannot see any connection between Wall's decision making with regard to where he will play and his decision making on the court. They are completely unrelated. Elite high school basketball players, just like most high school seniors, are being asked to make a true decision about how and where they will be living for the very first time. It's their first step into adulthood. I'm not surprised that first step may be tentative.

You have to remember these kids are doing what they do at a level we probably will never reach at what we do, ever. A high school player who is projected to play one year and then be a lottery pick in the NBA is the equivalent of a Supreme Court Justice, if you're a lawyer, a Nobel Laureate, if you're a scientist, and so on. They're doing it at basketball, which depends on the very split second decision making you're questioning Wall possesses. Just as a Nobel scientist might be completely unable to analyze and be successful in social interactions-- a complete buffoon or cringing wallflower if you met him or her at a cocktail party, I submit Wall is at his most comfortable on the court, and his being indecisive about where to go to college says absolutely nothing about his ability to be decisive at PG.

Well I am not sure I about the analogies here. A lottery pick in the NBA is not equivalent to a Nobel Laureate- being selected to the Hall of Fame is. Kwame Brown is no basketball Laureate, I can assure you. becoming a Lottery pick is like a recent PhD getting a faculty position. Decision making, leadership, going with your gut are all important qualities of a PG. This is why NFL players are evaluated on more than their ability to block or run. A few weeks ago, Wall said he would narrow his list at the Jordan classic- but that never happened. Yes- this is a tough decision- but a decision needs to be made. And this is a basketball decision - a decision about who he wants to play with and for. Does he feel comfortable or not- does he like his potential teammates or not. This is not a decision about what he will eat for breakfast. So I think the two are very much related- he needs to make a basketball and life decision. He needs to trust his gut.

[throatybeard]

I'm assuming this is a parody post. Nevertheless, what makes good parody work is when it has grains of truth in it, and the size of this thread and many of the comments reflect that.

I'm assuming this whole thread is a parody thread.

[roywhite]

I'm assuming this whole thread is a parody thread.

Yeah, 1700+ posts, 200,000+ views.

Silly us. Thanks for pointing that out.

[mgtr]

Yeah, 1700+ posts, 200,000+ views.

Silly us. Thanks for pointing that out.

Throatybeard has been around the horn once or twice. I would not take his comments lightly. This whole deal is becoming surreal.

[Cicero]

I'm assuming this whole thread is a parody thread.

If John Wall reads this thread, I hope he assumes the same thing!

[BlueintheFace]

John Wall doesn't have time to read this thread... nobody does.

PS- From now on I will only refer to this thread as "The Behemoth"

John Wall doesn't have time to read The Behemoth... nobody does.

In fact, I am starting a campaign to re-name this thread "John Wall Recruitment- The Behemoth"... JOIN ME FELLOW POSTERS!!

[ricks68]

I think Watzone's post deserves a beginning of a new Duke vs. Kentucky thread-----maybe in a few days. O.K., Watzone? Since I will be in LA this weekend, I can't participate 'till after that. And if it starts before that, all the good controversial stuff may be over by the time I get back. (I know that this post is about as relevant as what I've been reading so far concerning the recruitment of John Wall, so I decided to post it.) Go get 'em, Throaty.:p

ricks

[DukieBoy]

In regards to the front page story, what are the odds he officially shortens his list to Duke, Kentucky, and Memphis? You gotta think that's what's going to come though.

[El_Diablo]

In regards to the front page story, what are the odds he officially shortens his list to Duke, Kentucky, and Memphis? You gotta think that's what's going to come though.

I would not bet on Memphis being in the final three.

[moonpie23]

John Wall doesn't have time to read this thread... nobody does.

PS- From now on I will only refer to this thread as "The Behemoth"

John Wall doesn't have time to read The Behemoth... nobody does.

In fact, I am starting a campaign to re-name this thread "John Wall Recruitment- The Behemoth"... JOIN ME FELLOW POSTERS!!

i made up a word to describe that big huge thing at Mcdonalds that the kids play on...all those ladders, and pipes and stuff...

i called it, THE MONGOTHOLON


it might fit for this thread...

[gvtucker]

Who is John Wall?

[BlueintheFace]

Who is John Wall?

John Wall once had an awkward moment just to see how it felt

[wilson]

John Wall once had an awkward moment just to see how it felt

Oh, now here's a line of humor that could really bring this thread into it's own. Too bad the mods would disapprove.

[BlueintheFace]

Oh, now here's a line of humor that could really bring this thread into it's own. Too bad the mods would disapprove.

I'm sorry, that last statement wasn't fully explanatory of how interesting John Wall is. Let me elaborate:

John Wall lives vicariously through himself

[grossbus]

you guys need to stop getting your material from beer commercials.

[lucybluebear]

If John Wall is so great why was he not a McDonald's AA?

[DukeFanInTerpLand]

Can we get them from Chuck Norris websites?

[soccerstud2210]

If John Wall is so great why was he not a McDonald's AA?

5th year senior.

[soccerstud2210]

i made up a word to describe that big huge thing at Mcdonalds that the kids play on...all those ladders, and pipes and stuff...

i called it, THE MONGOTHOLON


it might fit for this thread...

how about "the Behemoth Mongotholon"? sums it up well

[Sobriquet]

If John Wall is so great why was he not a McDonald's AA?

More Detail

The McDs AA committee has a rule that no 5th year seniors are eligible to be on the team. This was to prevent parents from having their Jr or Sr child repeat a year to increase exposure, etc, and make the team. It also served to prevent prep schoolers from having two bites at the apple, so to speak.

It also served to prevent kids from being considered who had unnatural advantages re: height, weight (from being older than their "classmates").

This rule has been sidestepped by parents who recognize their childs abilities at an early age and having them repeat elementary grades or holding them out of school for a while.

That is how you have a 20 year old HS senior like Hans, who was not a 5th year senior.

Regardless, John Wall is one of the top players in the country in the amateur ranks.

[moonpie23]

how about "the behemoth mongotholon"? Sums it up well

ding ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!!

oh, i am revising my OVER/UNDER on the number of posts for this thread...

i am now going with 3000 if we get him and 4000 if we don't...

[sagegrouse]

This rule has been sidestepped by parents who recognize their childs abilities at an early age and having them repeat elementary grades or holding them out of school for a while.



Then there is the case of the Big E, Elvin Hayes, of Ruston, Louisiana, a place and time where birth certificates were mostly rumors. His parents sent him to first grade at age 4 or 5 because he was bigger than any kid entering school and because, basically, they could get away with it.

Who knows how old he was when he was playing at the U of H?

sagegrouse

[devildeac]

Then there is the case of the Big E, Elvin Hayes, of Ruston, Louisiana, a place and time where birth certificates were mostly rumors. His parents sent him to first grade at age 4 or 5 because he was bigger than any kid entering school and because, basically, they could get away with it.

Who knows how old he was when he was playing at the U of H?

sagegrouse

Probably no older than Greg Oden at THE OSU.:rolleyes:;)

[Kedsy]

Then there is the case of the Big E, Elvin Hayes, of Ruston, Louisiana, a place and time where birth certificates were mostly rumors. His parents sent him to first grade at age 4 or 5 because he was bigger than any kid entering school and because, basically, they could get away with it.

Who knows how old he was when he was playing at the U of H?

sagegrouse

If he went to first grade when he was 4 or 5, wouldn't that have made him younger than his classmates, meaning he finished college when he was 19 or 20?

[Sobriquet]

Long Rant, no new data, Feel Free to Skip

In response to Jumbo's post, this humble newbie (but I have been reading the board for years) would like to post a rejoinder.

Not to Jumbo, but to ANYONE who might be reading this board while mulling their college hoops destination.

I hope we get John Wall. Mr. Wall, or any friend or well wisher, please come to Duke to play ball. The campus is beautiful, the students are smart, hardworking, polite, and basically good people. Bad Elements generally do not find their way into the gothic wonderland, so it is a great place to come to escape their negativity. Basketball wise, Cameron is legendary for a reason, and K will get you ready for all aspects of the NBA.

Of course, I want Wall for purely selfish reasons, both for next year's team, and more importantly, beyond what is likely to be Wall's brief hiatus at Duke.

Next year, Wall makes us better. I don't pretend that he makes us a FF favorite (although that seems likely) all by his lonesome. But he makes the rest of the team better. How much better will Kyle be with a pass first PG to get him the ball? He can crash Wall's drives for passes or putbacks, and generally use his IQ to take advantage of the chaos created by a pentrating, passing, PG. Same with Scheyer. How deadly will he be off the ball when there is a stud PG on the Court? Open 3s on the wing, stealthy, sneaky mid range J's. And Wall, I cannot emphasize enough how great he will look making these guys look good. As for athletes, the Plums have great potential, and Nolan and E-Will will catch Highlight reel lobs all season. As for bigs, most of the time Wall will be on court with mobile, running bigs who can push the ball with him, but not clog the lane negating his ability to Drive (at KY there are 2-3 guys who will camp out in the lane, and good luck driving when those guys AND their Defenders are in the lane).

As for Wall's NBA asperations, Duke is the place to come. Not for basketball reasons alone. You already have the skills to get drafted. Sure, Duke will help hone those skills, as will playing in a tough league against quality oppenents.

I am talking about Wall's image. Duke plays a lot of games. On TV. Have you looked at the SEC's media package lately? Yikes. Also, the reality is that there are questions about Wall's "personality." Wall's presence at Duke under K will whitewash all of those questions, almost immediately, because K doesn't put up with that nonsense. NBA gms will know that Wall is a coachable kid who has been trained in media relations, as well as being able to operate in a Fishbowl.

Also, imagine being the Player THAT BROUGHT DUKE BACK TO MARCH PROMINANCE. That is the kind of guy that gets a lot of media coverage, and the resulting endorsements, post College. It is a good fit for everyone.

Look, Wall is not the Ideal recruit for Duke. But, really, there is one of those every 5-6 years (guys like GHill, Battier, and Hendo don't grow on trees). Sure, he had some problems, and there are some iffy people in his support group. Well, there may not be many HS hoops stars that don't have these question marks. Our society is based on self improvement, and redemption. A kid can make mistakes, learn from those mistakes, and then be a better person at the other end. If anyone can forge that better person, it is coach Bob Knight. But, he has retired. He also trained Coach K, who went to a school pretty big on individual improvement. So K is probably pretty good at making kids better.

But that is next year.

Going beyond that, I am thrilled with K's ardent pursuit of Wall, even if we don't land him.

Look, I want to win, but even I admit there are some kids I wouldn't touch, no matter how good they are. For what I consider to be an acceptable Duke recruit, there is a range. Based on Grades, background, entourage, and attitude (all of which is based largely on rumor, but smoke, fire, etc) Wall is on the low end of that acceptable range. I desparately want him to come to Duke, but he is on the low end of that range. If not for his exceptional ability, which must be weighed along with his off court stuff, I might not want him at Duke. But he is a fantastic player, and there are no glaring problems that I see, unlike that Renardo Sidney nightmare.

Wall is the type of one-and-done level of talent that it takes to win at the level I want to win at. Given K's full throated pursuit of Knight and Barnes, and maybe Dawkins, in the 2010 class, K seems to realize this. And, I feel that other programs have successfully negatively recruited against Duke by saying that Duke was not supportive of a kid leaving early. In reality, K has always supported Kids leaving when he felt they were ready, see Brand, Elton, and Williams, Jason, and Henderson, Gerald. But there was a perception among recruits, and their entourages, that Duke would prevent if possible kids from leaving early.

In Wall, K has really gone after a Kid who has his eyes on the pros. I trust that K has talked to kid and assuaged any concerns that the kid will not unpack his bags at Duke. If he wants the kid, then I am all for it.

I feel it has already paid dividends going forward. Barnes is seriously considering Duke, and he is a one and doner. Knight is talking more about Duke after seemingly not considering us earlier. And both of these kids are Duke guys. Good grades, solid family situations, keen on education, active in the community, beleived to be great overall humans. They are also eilite of the elite types of talents who will be ready for the pros (much) sooner rather than later.

Well, Duke might have to go after some marginal (off court stuff) Dukies, like Wall (please come here) to show to other one-and-dones, even traditional Duke level guys, that we are a place that will nurture their careers, not just Duke's ongoing success.

As for entourages, I get less concerned with that every day. There are some parents who pays tens of thousands of dollars to ensure their child gets into the right pre-school. Many parents also have college acceptance consultants, tutors, SAT tutors, and a network of family friends all keeping an eye on kids as they grow up. These parents are clued in to what it takes to succeed, and other than some eye rolling, no one looks askance at those parents, some of whom probably frequent this very board. Indeed, most are applauded for taking such an interest in their kids.

Imagine if you were a HS dropout, or never went to college, or have no idea about college sports, if your son started getting recruiting letters as a HS frosh? I know what to do, but I went to Duke and follow recruiting closely. I know a lot about Higher education. A lot of parents of Athletes don't. They don't read newspapers, they don't have ready access to unlimited internet. Survival is a struggle on a day-to-day basis. So they turn to someone more knowledgeable. Usually that is an AAU guy (or street agent) who takes their kids to games, and probably gets them a few meals along the way, keeping the reaper from the door for a few days more. Sure, it is not always altruistic, and these guys want something on the other end. But life sux for some people on a scale most of us cannot imagine. We can't blame kids for a bad situation or an unfair society. We can help those that are worthy, and try and change the system.

I want Wall desperately. He seems like a good kid at heart, who has turned over a new leaf in recent years. He is struggling with a mamoth decision that could affect his life in a HUGE fashion. I hope he chooses Duke, but I recognize what a hard situation he is facing, and I don't really envy him going through that process. Good luck to him.

Rant over.

[gumbomoop]

Jumbo's "maybe John Wall shouldn't come to Duke" [post #1642] and Sobriquet's rejoinder [#1744] are equally thoughtful pieces. I'll add just one point, one that falls into Sobriquet's camp: just from watching Wall in 2 all-star games, although hardly a substantial data set, I don't see a selfish player, which one might assume given rumors re "handlers." The contrast between Wall and, say, Lance Stephenson, seems too obvious to miss. So, if Duke were battling St. John's and Md for Stephenson, I think we'd be real nervous and embarrassed. Wall's presumed one-and-done aspirations, based on talent alone, seem (a) reasonable, while, based on court demeanor alone (b) not all that likely to cause on-court chemistry problems.

True enough, fervent recruiting of an announced - or is it just assumed - one-and-doner represents an unsettling development for Duke basketball [point to Jumbo], but surely not a catastrophic one [point to Sobriquet].

[moonpie23]

i've had a lot of dealings with "young talent" in my profession, and to be honest, almost all of them "get it" when they were shown the "light"...

by the "light", i mean, the next level of how they can be everything they ever aspired to be. Usually, they come in pretty pumped up and full of themselves (which is completely understandable cause they've had EVERYONE on the planet telling them they were the most amazing thing since sliced bread since they were 10 years old.)


then, when they get around a group of professionals (k, staff, verterns, older players) the difference of where THEY are and where they CAN be becomes desired by the talent. they see the opportunity to become better.

the work ethic improves, the "attitude" manifests more in "game face" rather than practice time, the desire to learn and be a part of the program begin to dominate their thinking... talent is talent......it's a gift...

even extrodinary talent has weaknesses. Eliminating those, while capitalizing on their strengths is what a leader does.

having someone like K at the head of your development team is something that any young talent would be glad to have.....once they've seen "the light"

why do you think kobe, wade, lebron et al, bought in?

[SilkyJ]

True enough, fervent recruiting of an announced - or is it just assumed - one-and-doner represents an unsettling development for Duke basketball [point to Jumbo], but surely not a catastrophic one [point to Sobriquet].

I'll spare the "the times, they are a changing" post, which I've written several times, but this is not entirely a new development. It may not have been as widely publicized when he was a HS senior, but Josh McBob told coach K he was likely gone after two years and we recruited him with that knowledge.

As for "the times, they are a changing" I will summarize my thoughts briefly: we basically had a 10+ year period where we didn't have to deal with early defections to the NBA and the rest of the world did, so we were spoiled by the fact that K was able to keep so many top talents around for four years. Now we aren't immune, and K is adjusting accordingly to keep Duke as an elite level program. I don't see it as unsettling development for Duke basketball, but just a reality of the times.

[wilson]

As for "the times, they are a changing" I will summarize my thoughts briefly: we basically had a 10+ year period where we didn't have to deal with early defections to the NBA and the rest of the world did, so we were spoiled by the fact that K was able to keep so many top talents around for four years. Now we aren't immune, and K is adjusting accordingly to keep Duke as an elite level program. I don't see it as unsettling development for Duke basketball, but just a reality of the times.

Very well said. People pretty well flipped out when Elton Brand, et. al. left early (to say nothing of Corey Maggette & Luol Deng). They fail to recognize that we were incredibly lucky to avoid such defections as long as we did. Short-term elite players are sort of the name of the game these days for top-level college basketball these days. The "are we selling our souls?" hand-wringing we're currently hearing from certain circles is, to me, part and parcel of the "elitist" rap we get from 95% of the rest of the country. John Wall or no John Wall, we need to own up to the reality of today's game.

[JimBD]

A few random thoughts with no inside knowledge:
(1) I doubt that the "missed meeting" between John and K had any significant impact. If John is seriously considering Duke, he already had most of the information he needed, and if he needed clarifications or reassurance, the delay in making a decision gives him plenty of time to get that info. If John has waited this long, he is not going to rush into a decision without getting the info he needs.(2) It seems to me that K has always emphasized the quality of contacts over the quantity of contacts, and that approach seems to work very well with a lot of recruits. I don't think that John is intimidated by high pressure salesmenship-he seems to be taking his time and carefully considering all of his options. I think this bodes well for Duke. (3)Apparently, enough people are interested enough in what K has to say that a book tour was justified. At least K is well-rounded enough that he has put out a book that is getting attention. I'm not sure if any of the other coaches recruiting John have done that. (4)Making big money in the NBA is related not just to basketball talent, it is also related to image and marketing. I am frequently amazed at how articulate most Duke basketball players are when they speak-probably a combination of natural ability and the influence of K. The images of most of the US players in the Olympics were significantly improved-again probably due largely to the influence of K. Kobe in particular went from having a very tarnished image to becoming a patriotic good-guy. I'm sure that John is smart enough to see that K can help him significantly in improving his basketball skills and in projecting a positive image of himself. (5) John probably is already pretty sure of where he wants to go to college. There may be some loose ends delaying his final decision, perhaps a delay in getting high school grades or SAT scores. If so, he probably wants to keep all his other options open in case he doesn't meet the requirements of his first choice. If one of the main reasons for the delay in making his decision is to get "all his ducks in order", I think this would bode well for Duke.

[gumbomoop]

I'll spare the "the times, they are a changing" post, which I've written several times, but this is not entirely a new development. It may not have been as widely publicized when he was a HS senior, but Josh McBob told coach K he was likely gone after two years and we recruited him with that knowledge.

As for "the times, they are a changing" I will summarize my thoughts briefly: we basically had a 10+ year period where we didn't have to deal with early defections to the NBA and the rest of the world did, so we were spoiled by the fact that K was able to keep so many top talents around for four years. Now we aren't immune, and K is adjusting accordingly to keep Duke as an elite level program. I don't see it as unsettling development for Duke basketball, but just a reality of the times.

Yes, I understand your point, but I maintain there's a distinction between recruiting an announced one-done, and private comments from a recruit to K. Perhaps this is a distinction without a real difference, but it seems important to me. K's on record as bemoaning the current situation, preferring a minimum 2-year commitment for any player who opts for college ball. [i.e., K says let 'em go straight to NBA from hs, but if a young man chooses college, it's gotta be 2 years]

Of course you're right that this is the new reality, but it's unsettling enough to K and others, including David Stern, that they're pushing hard for a change. Until change comes, yep, K and we must deal with the circus.