John Wall Recruitment

[Bluedog]

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I don't see the difficulty of the academics playing much of a role. For a guy that knows he's going to make the NBA jump after a year (maybe two), you don't need to take anything difficult. Granted the average Duke class is probably more difficult than the equivalent at KY, there are plenty of classes at Duke that aren't that hard...especially if you don't need an A.

Just curious, what GPA do you need to remain eligible?

Not sure if rules governing athletic participation is different than "normal" students. But here's the procedure for students in general:

In the First Semester at Duke:
Grades include

While enrolled in
Result
F 4 course credits Academic warning
DD, DF, FF 4 course credits On academic probation in next semester
DD, F <4 course credits On academic probation in next semester
FFF 4 course credits Academic dismissal for 2 semesters
FF <4 course credits Academic dismissal for 2 semesters

http://t-reqs.trinity.duke.edu/grades.html

If Wall is staying one year only, he just needs to avoid getting 3 F's first semester since his second semester grades won't matter since he'll be gone. I think b-ball players almost always take summer school before freshman yr though too. So, yeah, that's pretty easy.

I do think that he definitely will have to put more effort into Duke academics than KY, and I don't think its a trivial difference. So, that might be a negative in his mind. He needs to choose his classes VERY strategically to do okay and not have to put in that much work, especially considering his academic background (not trying to be disparaging, but obviously his academic resume is much much weaker than a typical duke student, so he'd obviously have to put a lot more effort into classes to understand the material).

[InSpades]

Pretty sure qualifications to keep playing basketball are different than qualifications to remain a student. One is set by the NCAA and the other is set by Duke.

I really don't think academics are that big of an issue. If you are reasonably smart and put in a reasonable effort then passing classes at Duke isn't that difficult. Obviously picking classes is important, effort in a math class doesn't turn a wrong answer into a right one. Effort in an english class however goes a decent bit further. Unless things have substantially changed... he will take a freshman writing class (which is pretty much a joke) and 3 other classes. I'm sure he could find 3 classes that fit his interests and aptitude.

[KyDevilinIL]

Not to disrupt the flow of this thread, but isn't there some scheduled conversation between Wall and K today? Did I see that on here or somewhere else?

[roywhite]

Not to disrupt the flow of this thread, but isn't there some scheduled conversation between Wall and K today? Did I see that on here or somewhere else?

I think that's correct; supposed to talk by phone today (this evening?). Maybe they'll both be watching the Micky-D game and comment on how nice it would be to throw lob passes to that Plumlee fella.

I read about the scheduled phone conversation on a rivals.com piece.

[MarkD83]

Not sure if rules governing athletic participation is different than "normal" students. But here's the procedure for students in general:

In the First Semester at Duke:
Grades include

While enrolled in
Result
F 4 course credits Academic warning
DD, DF, FF 4 course credits On academic probation in next semester
DD, F <4 course credits On academic probation in next semester
FFF 4 course credits Academic dismissal for 2 semesters
FF <4 course credits Academic dismissal for 2 semesters

http://t-reqs.trinity.duke.edu/grades.html

If Wall is staying one year only, he just needs to avoid getting 3 F's first semester since his second semester grades won't matter since he'll be gone. I think b-ball players almost always take summer school before freshman yr though too. So, yeah, that's pretty easy.

I do think that he definitely will have to put more effort into Duke academics than KY, and I don't think its a trivial difference. So, that might be a negative in his mind. He needs to choose his classes VERY strategically to do okay and not have to put in that much work, especially considering his academic background (not trying to be disparaging, but obviously his academic resume is much much weaker than a typical duke student, so he'd obviously have to put a lot more effort into classes to understand the material).

sick to my stomach. I am not offended by the people posting about academic requirements (it is an interesting topic), but college basketball is really at an all time low if we are discussing whether or not the quailty of a Duke education should matter when recruiting some one to go to Duke. This whole "1 and done" deal with the NBA is ridiculous. The group at fault is the NCAA. If they really wanted to the NCAA could make a rule that you had to commit to 3 years of college or no scholarship. If you left early, pay back the year of scholarship money PLUS some penalty (10% of your salary). If you don't agree to sign the contract go play in Europe for a year.

[Bluedog]

sick to my stomach. I am not offended by the people posting about academic requirements (it is an interesting topic), but college basketball is really at an all time low if we are discussing whether or not the quailty of a Duke education should matter when recruiting some one to go to Duke. This whole "1 and done" deal with the NBA is ridiculous. The group at fault is the NCAA. If they really wanted to the NCAA could make a rule that you had to commit to 3 years of college or no scholarship. If you left early, pay back the year of scholarship money PLUS some penalty (10% of your salary). If you don't agree to sign the contract go play in Europe for a year.

I agree that it's pretty sad discussing the quality of a Duke education when thinking if somebody would go to Duke or not. But, we just have to face reality that Wall is going to college as a stepping stone to the NBA - he has stated that clearly. He's not to college for the classes or the education.

Also, I don't think the NCAA could legally have such a standard. The NBA has all the power in this...and pretty much determines how they want the situation to be handled (they have all the money....) The NFL and MLB have decided to handle the situation differently - it's not the NCAA deciding it on a per-sport basis.

[MonitorMom]

If a son of mine was contemplating attending a college, even for one year, I would be spending my time doing research...which could possibly lead me to this thread. Making assumptions about a recruit needing to choose courses wisely intimates a lack of ability and would be very insulting and not endear me to that institution. I might imagine, perhaps incorrectly, a snobbish,arrogant or unwelcoming environment. It is unkind at best to presume knowing a student's interests and abilities without knowing that person. It also might poorly influence a good prospect.(sorry, once a mom, always a mom).

[blazindw]

sick to my stomach. I am not offended by the people posting about academic requirements (it is an interesting topic), but college basketball is really at an all time low if we are discussing whether or not the quailty of a Duke education should matter when recruiting some one to go to Duke. This whole "1 and done" deal with the NBA is ridiculous. The group at fault is the NCAA. If they really wanted to the NCAA could make a rule that you had to commit to 3 years of college or no scholarship. If you left early, pay back the year of scholarship money PLUS some penalty (10% of your salary). If you don't agree to sign the contract go play in Europe for a year.

I think who you should be more mad at is the NBA. They're the ones that instituted the rule. No one has to go to college (as Brandon Jennings will tell you). You just aren't eligible for the NBA Draft until you are one year removed from high school graduation. You can, for all intensive purposes, bag groceries for a year and then declare for the draft.

[Channing]

I agree that it's pretty sad discussing the quality of a Duke education when thinking if somebody would go to Duke or not. But, we just have to face reality that Wall is going to college as a stepping stone to the NBA - he has stated that clearly. He's not to college for the classes or the education.

Also, I don't think the NCAA could legally have such a standard. The NBA has all the power in this...and pretty much determines how they want the situation to be handled (they have all the money....)

I am also not sure what kind of anti-trust issues arise with that. Baseball has an anti-trust exemption and the NFL has a ruling that young men under the average age level of a college rising sr arent physically ready for the NFL. Not sure what the NBA could hang its hat on.

[CMS2478]

sick to my stomach. I am not offended by the people posting about academic requirements (it is an interesting topic), but college basketball is really at an all time low if we are discussing whether or not the quailty of a Duke education should matter when recruiting some one to go to Duke. This whole "1 and done" deal with the NBA is ridiculous. The group at fault is the NCAA. If they really wanted to the NCAA could make a rule that you had to commit to 3 years of college or no scholarship. If you left early, pay back the year of scholarship money PLUS some penalty (10% of your salary). If you don't agree to sign the contract go play in Europe for a year.

I don't like kids jumping to the NBA, but personally I think they ought to be able to jump out of high school if they want to. If I want to open my own business out of high school I might benefit from a business degree, but if I were an intelligent young man and could do it without college there isn't anyone telling me I can't do that. If the kids "think" they are ready for the NBA let em' go. You go to college to prepare for your future job. Some people might not need college. In Wall's case, under the current rules, he needs one year of college to prepare for his multi million dollar career. However, as one stated it is the NBA's rule and some companies require a degree to work for them. So what's one to do???

[dgoore97]

my apologies if this has been posted already:

“I went there Sunday in the afternoon. It went well. I finally got a chance to sit down and talk (Coach K). It was great. My mom feels comfortable and Brian (Clifton) feels confident in it. "

http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/852566.html

should i not take this as a good sign?

[dyedwab]

I think who you should be more mad at is the NBA. They're the ones that instituted the rule. No one has to go to college (as Brandon Jennings will tell you). You just aren't eligible for the NBA Draft until you are one year removed from high school graduation. You can, for all intensive purposes, bag groceries for a year and then declare for the draft.

Because of the NBA's salary structure, it is in the NBA's interest for really good players to come out early, and then be paid rookie-scale for three years, and, of they develop, to be signed by the original team who can afford, because of the way the salary cap works, to sign them to a bigger second contract.

For a game changing point guard, the NBA "one-and-done" rule works incredibly well for the teams in the league. High reward, low risk.

[CMS2478]

my apologies if this has been posted already:

“I went there Sunday in the afternoon. It went well. I finally got a chance to sit down and talk (Coach K). It was great. My mom feels comfortable and Brian (Clifton) feels confident in it. "

http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/852566.html

should i not take this as a good sign?

I'm pretty sure this has already been posted and while it does look encouraging I don't recall many recruits saying that a visit to any school "didn't go well." It is something that they all kind of say.

[SMO]

I'm pretty sure this has already been posted and while it does look encouraging I don't recall many recruits saying that a visit to any school "didn't go well." It is something that they all kind of say.

But he added that it went "great" and mentioned his Mom being comfortable. And if Mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy. ;)

[coldriver10]

If a son of mine was contemplating attending a college, even for one year, I would be spending my time doing research...which could possibly lead me to this thread. Making assumptions about a recruit needing to choose courses wisely intimates a lack of ability and would be very insulting and not endear me to that institution. I might imagine, perhaps incorrectly, a snobbish,arrogant or unwelcoming environment. It is unkind at best to presume knowing a student's interests and abilities without knowing that person. It also might poorly influence a good prospect.(sorry, once a mom, always a mom).
I totally understand where you're coming from. But I think discussing the issue of difficulty of academics and whether or not that will play a factor doesn't necessarily question- at least for me- the intelligence of the player. The reality is that being a D-1 athlete is incredibly time-consuming and difficult for all but the rare Matt Christensen. I don't think that assuming a recruit should choose classes wisely speaks poorly on that recruit but rather the difficult nature of balancing classes and athletics. My point about choosing courses that aren't as difficult doesn't speak to his intelligence or academic capabilities but to the fact that he has been public with his plan to use college as a stepping stone to an NBA career. Why not, then, minimize the difficulty of one's classes?

[wilson]

FWIW, the last linked article also quotes Wall as saying, "“[The recent shakeup] puts [Kentucky] in there in but I don’t have a leader anymore.”

That appears to me to be a considerable bump upward for Duke, even if it comes largely by way of a downward bump for Wall's erstwhile ostensible "leader."

[Bluedog]

This has officially become the longest thread on the DBR main board in history (or, at least, since the new board was instituted). It's second in views.

And, yeah, I think Cal to KY helps us with Wall. The KY scholarship situation is somewhat sticky too....although I'm sure Cal would be able to "sort it out" to give Wall a scholly.

[MarkD83]

I think who you should be more mad at is the NBA. They're the ones that instituted the rule. No one has to go to college (as Brandon Jennings will tell you). You just aren't eligible for the NBA Draft until you are one year removed from high school graduation. You can, for all intensive purposes, bag groceries for a year and then declare for the draft.

However, the NCAA is a separate entity and they should be able to set their own rules. The NCAA is torn between making money from CBS and ESPN and supporting higher education. The way they are now they are starting to sacrifice higher education for money. A tweak to the system could be to require each school to offer an "athletics/business" major. In this major the student-athlete would take introduction to business, finance, contract negotiations etc, anything that would help them better manage the money they are about to get from the NBA. If this happended I would at least feel that the NCAA was trying to counteract the rules set up by the NBA.

ps. Mods please move this to a different area if appropriate. I would love for John Wall to come to Duke even for 1 year. I believe that even 1 year at Duke (or any college) is better than not attending college at all.

[DukiesPA]

my apologies if this has been posted already:

“I went there Sunday in the afternoon. It went well. I finally got a chance to sit down and talk (Coach K). It was great. My mom feels comfortable and Brian (Clifton) feels confident in it. "

http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/852566.html


should i not take this as a good sign?

I do find it somewhat discouraging that he mentioned one of Wall's "handlers" (Clifton) in on the meeting, too. It just seems like this guy's trying to get his hands into everything.

Say things don't go as smoothly as hoped next year (if he were to sign), and Wall ends up in a position similar to Nolan and Greg this year where he needs to go to the bench and lose minutes in the best interest of the team. No matter how much you're willing to say the team will have upperclassmen leaders or strong coaching, there's no way his handlers will approve of any such move that may not be in his best interest and hinder his one-year audition for the NBA.

I've refained from saying it for awhile, but I'm not sold on this whole thing. He was in our back yard this whole time and we didn't show too much interest in him until the serious deficiencies at PG came to light. Now we're all of the sudden really high on him -- I just get the feeling we're selling out for a stop-gap for one year when there's evident red tape.

The argument can be made that things will be different, but the point remains that the Duke coaching staff didn't offer the #1 player in next year's class who resides right next door until we became desperate for a PG. Is whatever reason we had for not offering him prior to this point now resolved or are we just willing to overlook it now?

[wilko]

I've refained from saying it for awhile, but I'm not sold on this whole thing. He was in our back yard this whole time and we didn't show too much interest in him until the serious deficiencies at PG came to light. Now we're all of the sudden really high on him -- I just get the feeling we're selling out for a stop-gap for one year when there's evident red tape.

The argument can be made that things will be different, but the point remains that the Duke coaching staff didn't offer the #1 player in next year's class who resides right next door until we became desperate for a PG. Is whatever reason we had for not offering him prior to this point now resolved or are we just willing to overlook it now?

I think you have to overlook it. Clearly the recruiting game has changed. Its either adapt or be left behind. I'm not defending it, or saying its the ideal. Its what we have.

[Gargoyle]

Here is J. P. Giglio's take on Duke's recruitment of John Wall.

http://aboverim.blogspot.com/2009/03/dukes-pursuit-of-raleighs-john-wall.html

[jimsumner]

The requirement that players be one-year removed from high school before going to the NBA is a part of the collective bargaining agreement between the NBA and the NBA Player's Association.

I'm not a lawyer but I cannot imagine any way that then NCAA could impact this rule in any way, shape, or form and have it stand up in court.

[moonpie23]

I don't care who you are, or where you come from. If coach K sits your down and says "i would plug you into the system the way i plugged jason williams into the system".......THAT has got to impress you...

[Matches]

Here is J. P. Giglio's take on Duke's recruitment of John Wall.

http://aboverim.blogspot.com/2009/03/dukes-pursuit-of-raleighs-john-wall.html

So many factual inaccuracies. Completely overlooks our recruitment of Brandan Wright. Posits that Lance Thomas was a consolation prize after we lost out on Patterson even though they weren't in the same class (and Thomas signed the year *before* Patterson). Claims we've reversed course by pursuing Wall without citing any (truthful) evidence that we ever shunned done-in-ones.

It's really no wonder more and more people are getting their news online, and from sources outside mainstream journalism. The major advantage offered by the mainstream news media used to be professionalism and accuracy, but that's an error-ridden a post as I've seen on any blog.

[NSDukeFan]

I don't care who you are, or where you come from. If coach K sits your down and says "i would plug you into the system the way i plugged jason williams into the system".......THAT has got to impress you...

I know it impresses me, but I don't know if an 18 year old, who would have been barely a teenager when Jason Williams was playing for Duke would be that impressed, e.g. Kenny Boynton. Because of Williams' accident and lack of much of an NBA career, I wonder how much these kids would be able to appreciate how good he was.

[NashvilleDevil]

Because of Williams' accident and lack of much of an NBA career, I wonder how much these kids would be able to appreciate how good he was.

I had that thought about a week ago. If Jason was leading the Bulls deep in the playoffs every year how much would that help Duke? I know Shane Battier looked up to Grant Hill who was playing in Detroit at the time of Shane's recruitment.

[moonpie23]

Here is J. P. Giglio's take on Duke's recruitment of John Wall.

http://aboverim.blogspot.com/2009/03/dukes-pursuit-of-raleighs-john-wall.html

here's another great story about J.P. and the fine journalism of his company.

[Greg_Newton]

my apologies if this has been posted already:

“I went there Sunday in the afternoon. It went well. I finally got a chance to sit down and talk (Coach K). It was great. My mom feels comfortable and Brian (Clifton) feels confident in it. "

http://scouthoops.scout.com/2/852566.html

should i not take this as a good sign?

Thanks for the post... if it was on here before then I missed it. That's by far the most encouraging set of quotes from him I've seen... nothing to get too riled up about, but like you said, several good signs:

1) The visit to Duke "went great, and I heard all I needed to hear"
2) Not only is Wall comfortable with Duke, so are his mom and Mr. Clifton (whom I thought had been one of the main obstacles).
3) Kentucky is not listed as a leader, just another school in the mix.
4) The non-conditinoal phrasing of "[Coach K] is GOING to use me like Jason Williams". Of course, I'm not reading too much into that or taking that as literal or anything, but it's nice to see he can at least envision himself in the system at Duke next season.

I had been thinking recently that we were being politely, but not too seriously considered by him. It's nice to see that it looks like we are now a legitimate player in his recruitment... hopefully the convo goes well today!

[MarkD83]

The requirement that players be one-year removed from high school before going to the NBA is a part of the collective bargaining agreement between the NBA and the NBA Player's Association.

I'm not a lawyer but I cannot imagine any way that then NCAA could impact this rule in any way, shape, or form and have it stand up in court.

Jim,

My point is that the NCAA can make their own rules. The collective bargaining agreement states 1 year removed from high school as a minimum. The NCAA could say "fine if you chose to go to college to meet that 1 year reauirement we have our own stipulations:

1. Good SAT/ACT score
2. Good grades
3. Maintain good grades while at school
4. Stay for three years or pay back your scholarship
or If only staying for 1 year here are the classes you are required to take:
Finance, contract negotiations etc....

1-3 are already stipulations set by the NCAA not the NBA or the player's association.

Number 4 could be challenged in court but something like that has never been tried by the NCAA.

Mark

[Lord Ash]

That would be a seriously dangerous, dangerous negotiation ploy that could have massive negative ramifications. Very dangerous.

[WhiteboardGuy]

Because of the NBA's salary structure, it is in the NBA's interest for really good players to come out early, and then be paid rookie-scale for three years, and, of they develop, to be signed by the original team who can afford, because of the way the salary cap works, to sign them to a bigger second contract.

For a game changing point guard, the NBA "one-and-done" rule works incredibly well for the teams in the league. High reward, low risk.

I would argue it is in the NBA's interest for kids to stay in school longer than one year. Since there is a larger sample size of games, you get a better sense of the prospect's ability so there is less risk when drafting them. Additionally, it postpones the date that you have to pay them that big second contract you are talking about--a kid who enters the NBA at 18 will get big money at 21, whereas a kid who enters the league at 21 after three years of school will get rookie wages until he is 24. If you assume their skill sets are the same and they are developing at the same rate, then having them stay in school for 3 years is a much better deal for the teams.

[MarkD83]

That would be a seriously dangerous, dangerous negotiation ploy that could have massive negative ramifications. Very dangerous.

Lord Ash,

I am not sure what is very dangerous about the NCAA adding some stipulations to granting a scholarship. The worst case is that elite players that want to go to the NBA in 1 year won't go to college.

From the perspective of educating athletes more scholarships would be available for athletes who want to but could not afford college.

From a competitive perspective all colleges would be affected equally.

CBS/ESPN might complain about the quality of the players in the college game and want to renegotiate their contracts, but over the course of the last 5-10 years the elite players have not stayed for 4 years in college yet the marketability of college basketball has not suffered.

Mark

[BlueintheFace]

This link has been posted enough in this thread to make one wonder if it has been intentionally planted by some folks. Anyone who takes one statement as being positive, meaningful or a sign is delusional. Bottom line is each day brings a new twist and trust me in that there is good information and better information. But not one soul can tip anyone in on where Wall will go at this time. And I will stake my rep on that. A lot has happened since Sunday, so anything that went down then is old news.

Anyhow, everyone is busting Duke's chops locally for there are a lot of haters. Now that Calipari has been named the Kentucky coach, the national media seems to have added three past national titles to his resume.

Think BBQ and you will figure out who is truly in the race for Walls services.

That cuts it to four.

[jimsumner]

"1. Good SAT/ACT score
2. Good grades
3. Maintain good grades while at school
4. Stay for three years or pay back your scholarship
or If only staying for 1 year here are the classes you are required to take:
Finance, contract negotiations etc....

1-3 are already stipulations set by the NCAA not the NBA or the player's association.

Number 4 could be challenged in court but something like that has never been tried by the NCAA. "

It's never been tried by the NCAA because it would never stand up in court.

[watzone]

I removed that post for it was a different link, but the Sunday news is old. Didn't realize that was a free link.

Where do you get BBQ and four from?

[Franzez]

I think this will drag on for awhile longer than expected.

He may not decide until May.

[BlueintheFace]

I removed that post for it was a different link, but the Sunday news is old. Didn't realize that was a free link.

Where do you get BBQ and four from?

Baylor (Texas Barbeque)
Duke (NC Barbeque)
NC State (NC Barbeque)
Kentucky (KY Barbeque.... although I'd be willing to remove that rubbish)

[Kewlswim]

Baylor (Texas Barbeque)
Duke (NC Barbeque)
NC State (NC Barbeque)
Kentucky (KY Barbeque.... although I'd be willing to remove that rubbish)

Hi,

I don't think I have ever been to a state that didn't have BBQ. Does that mean that Wall is interested in schools in all 50 states? Maybe if he doesn't come to Duke he will go to Stanford (Coach Dawkins) or wherever Coach Capel is. I don't know if Coach Capel going to Arizona is an April Fools, but if it isn't he might like it out there too. :-)

Big Nate's BBQ in San Francisco is pretty good by the way. I think it is located in the Haight, but don't quote me on that. Though I still like NC BBQ better.

GO DUKE!

[dpslaw]

I think watzone was referring to the title of the BBQ threads on DBR

[DukieBoy]

Didn't see this (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/97413-can-memphis-hold-on-to-pg-recruit) anywhere else. Wall talked to SI after his visit to Duke and says Memphis is still the leader. Interestingly, Wall said Coach K would use him the same way he used Jason Williams when he played.

[Kewlswim]

I think watzone was referring to the title of the BBQ threads on DBR

Hi,

That makes sense. I wasn't sure what Watzone meant. I was starting to think that he meant John Wall was opening up his recruiting to the whole nation.

GO DUKE!

[geraldsneighbor]

Didn't see this (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/97413-can-memphis-hold-on-to-pg-recruit) anywhere else. Wall talked to SI after his visit to Duke and says Memphis is still the leader. Interestingly, Wall said Coach K would use him the same way he used Jason Williams when he played.

That was pre-Cal to UK. He said today he doesn't have a favorite now.

[MarkD83]

"1. Good SAT/ACT score
2. Good grades
3. Maintain good grades while at school
4. Stay for three years or pay back your scholarship
or If only staying for 1 year here are the classes you are required to take:
Finance, contract negotiations etc....

1-3 are already stipulations set by the NCAA not the NBA or the player's association.

Number 4 could be challenged in court but something like that has never been tried by the NCAA. "

It's never been tried by the NCAA because it would never stand up in court.

This is a good discussion, but I am still trying to determine the Pros and Cons of why the NCAA can't take more action in this area.

First let me subdivide proposal 4 into 2 sections.

The list of required courses is not any different then what is already required of students. All Duke students have to take freshman english. No athlete has sued that they should not take that course. It is required. The NCAA would just extend their "get good grades" requirement to "get good grades" in courses that are on a preapproved list.

The second issue of paying back scholarship money is a bit more contentious. However, I imagine like me a lot of us took out student loans to pay for college. The NCAA could determine that scholarships are loans and that by signing scholarship papers you are taking out a loan. The loans will be waived if you attend school for some set period of time (3 years) and make good progress toward graduation. If someone leaves early for the NBA and gets a big contract, they could pay the loans or even ask their future employer to pay the loan. The suit for lack of payment would be the NCAA suing the athlete.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I hope John Wall comes to Duke, but I don't think it will happen. If it does not happen, remember we will still have a really good team next year--even if G leaves. I don't know why some people think this year was a failure--30 wins, ACC Champs, Sweet 16...my goodness. Most every other team in the nation wishes it had such a horrible season.

I firmly believe that Duke will one day be more successful than Carolina--in hoops--again. We past each other like elevators, up and down, up and down. There were many years there where we were beating UNC left and right and I don't mean just when D'oh was there. In the '80s under Dean Smith I think there was a stretch where Duke beat Carolina four straight times.

We have a great coach. The game has not passed him by. I think he was stretched a little too thin with the USA Basketball commitment. That, I believe, is over. Duke basketball is in great hands. The rest of the nation will soon hate us even more (if that is possible) when they realize we are a force that just isn't going away. :D

GO DUKE!

[MarkD83]

I have been thinking about how Coach K has approached different challenges in his career. Duke will keep getting better.

Instead of hijacking this thread any further I will open another thread with my thoughts on the past/future.

[Lord Ash]

Lord Ash,

I am not sure what is very dangerous about the NCAA adding some stipulations to granting a scholarship. The worst case is that elite players that want to go to the NBA in 1 year won't go to college.

From the perspective of educating athletes more scholarships would be available for athletes who want to but could not afford college.

From a competitive perspective all colleges would be affected equally.

CBS/ESPN might complain about the quality of the players in the college game and want to renegotiate their contracts, but over the course of the last 5-10 years the elite players have not stayed for 4 years in college yet the marketability of college basketball has not suffered.

Mark

Hi!

Sorry, I'll try to explain.

The first three are not a big deal.

But #4... it might force a lot of kids (including a disproportionate number of African Americans) away from college for even just one and two years, never giving them a chance to at least experience college/learn what they can in the time they are there. I suppose it could work in that players who go to the league and do well after 1 or 2 years wouldn't have to worry as much about paying back loans... but kids who go to the league and flame out after only a few years would still be on the hook for a solid 100k (about 2 years of college?) This might make the NCAA look pretty bad, especially if the league and the schools were making money off of the kid while he was in school. Plus, as you note, I bet a good number of kids (again, disproportionately African Americans) who are on the fence would just skip college entirely and go straight to developmental leagues.

I just think that this would anger the NBA and NBAPA, and cast the NCAA in a very negative light.

(I hope this made sense, I've had a few glasses of wine. Sorry if it didn't!)

[jimsumner]

Hypothetical student goes to hypothetical university. Awarded academic scholarship. Majors in music. Starts band. Band gets record contract, student decides to leave university after junior year.

Should student be required to pay back scholarship?

Or make it an English major who writes a best-selling novel and leaves school following junior year. Same question.

And I think we all know the difference between a student loan and a grant-in-aid.

I don't see how a university can restrict a student's ability to leave school and join the work force. The work force, i.e. the NBA, can only do so as part of a Collective Bargaining Agreement. If David Stern wanted to change the current one-year rule to a three-year rule by executive fiat, he could not.

And the same thing applies to the NCAA.

As much as I would like every single college basketball player to pick schools based on academic compatibility and graduate in four years, it is not going to happen. That ship has sailed. If Gerald Henderson or James Johnson or Ed Davis or anyone else decides that leaving school in an attempt to make a living in the NBA is in their best interests, then they should have that right.

IMO.

[DukePA's Mom]

I may have miss what I am about to say, I just scanned the posts. It would not be in Duke's favor, or any private schools faver for any recuirt to have to pay back tution should they leave early for the NBA. State schools are so much cheaper. I cannot think a rule like that would fly.

[KandG]

Hi,

I hope John Wall comes to Duke, but I don't think it will happen. If it does not happen, remember we will still have a really good team next year--even if G leaves. I don't know why some people think this year was a failure--30 wins, ACC Champs, Sweet 16...my goodness. Most every other team in the nation wishes it had such a horrible season.

The rest of the nation will soon hate us even more (if that is possible) when they realize we are a force that just isn't going away. :D




I completely agree with you on every point (especially being a good team with Wall and G not around next year), but it seems we're in the minority. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't be the War and Peace of DBR threads. The way people are hanging onto slivers of slivers of evidence praying Duke will be rescued by a one and done kid is .... interesting.

[MarkD83]

I may not hit all of the points in this post but let me give it a try.

When someone goes to a college on an academic scholarship they are given the scholarship to participate in the main mission of any college: to become better educated. These students have fulfilled their obligation by participating in the main goal of the school.

An athlete also goes to school to gain an education, but if they are going to college just to pass time to satisfy some NBA rule they need to be aware of the consequences. I understand that the monetary conseqeunces can be more detrimental to some socio-economic groups than others. However, those athletes that do not make it in the NBA or other pro league can be given some recourse to come back to school and complete their education. Upon doing so they will not be obliged to pay back their loan.

Those that leave early and make it into the NBA should be obliged to pay back their loans. In fact what I have in mind is that the athlete passes his loan obligation on to the NBA by means of well written contracts. In that way the NBA would be funding what is becoming their minor league, which they currently do not fund.

[Channing]

again, for those calling for an age limit, go back and familiarize yourself with Spencer Haywood. In 1969 Spencer Haywood got the NBA's 4 year rule out of high school thrown out as per se illegal, and a violation of the Sherman anti-trust act. Indeed, if a high school senior challenged the current rule there is a decent chance it would be overturned as an unreasonable restriction.

The NBA will be hard pressed to say that high school seniors need more time to develop since many have already shown that is not the case.

[Virginian]

Big Nate's BBQ in San Francisco is pretty good by the way. I think it is located in the Haight, but don't quote me on that. Though I still like NC BBQ better.

I think Big Nate's is in the Mission. You may be thinking of Memphis Minnies, which is on Haight St, but sorta between the Haight and Hayes Valley. Minnies, by the way, is awesome, but nothing like NC BBQ. And yeah, I know this is really off the point of this thread.

[jimsumner]

"Indeed, if a high school senior challenged the current rule there is a decent chance it would be overturned as an unreasonable restriction"

As part of a Collective Bargaining Agreement, I'm pretty sure this restriction is legally protected.

[MarkD83]

I may have miss what I am about to say, I just scanned the posts. It would not be in Duke's favor, or any private schools faver for any recuirt to have to pay back tution should they leave early for the NBA. State schools are so much cheaper. I cannot think a rule like that would fly.

DukePA's Mom,

Since each school has a different tuition, the NCAA could make the "loan" obligation an average amount regardless of where the athlete went to school. You may argue that this would favor the more expensive schools, but that should already be the case.

Mark

[MarkD83]

"Indeed, if a high school senior challenged the current rule there is a decent chance it would be overturned as an unreasonable restriction"

As part of a Collective Bargaining Agreement, I'm pretty sure this restriction is legally protected.

In addition, there are other professional basketball leagues so there is really no hardship. One could argue they do not want to work in Europe or Australia or the Far East but that is a choice not a restriction.

The analogy that can be used is the same in many professions but best illustrated by the theater business. You may want to work on Broadway but you will have to do dinner theater somewhere else first.

[turnandburn55]

"Indeed, if a high school senior challenged the current rule there is a decent chance it would be overturned as an unreasonable restriction"

As part of a Collective Bargaining Agreement, I'm pretty sure this restriction is legally protected.

While this is still hotly contested in legal circles, the Second Circuit Court did rule that you are correct under Clarett v NFL. The circumstances here are obviously different and I would be curious to see how a challenge went... academically speaking, of course..

[pfrduke]

In addition, there are other professional basketball leagues so there is really no hardship. One could argue they do not want to work in Europe or Australia or the Far East but that is a choice not a restriction.

The analogy that can be used is the same in many professions but best illustrated by the theater business. You may want to work on Broadway but you will have to do dinner theater somewhere else first.

But that's not a requirement of working on Broadway. It may the common career course (as, for that matter, is staying in school longer than a year on the way to the NBA), but if I audition for a Broadway show as a college sophomore (whether I'm a drama major or a biochem major) and land a leading role, I should owe nothing to my school if I leave to take that role.

[MarkD83]

But that's not a requirement of working on Broadway. It may the common career course (as, for that matter, is staying in school longer than a year on the way to the NBA), but if I audition for a Broadway show as a college sophomore (whether I'm a drama major or a biochem major) and land a leading role, I should owe nothing to my school if I leave to take that role.

I agree with you about the drama and biochem majors.

In one of my earlier reponses to Jim and Lord Ash I mentioned that academic scholarships were different because those students were pursuing the main goal for attending a university; further your education. I don't want to repeat myself too much, but the difficulty I have is the athlete that goes to college just to bide his time because of the NBA rule.

The second point is that I object to the NBA making an age limit rule and I would object if Broadway said they would not take someone solely based on age.

But the main problem I have is that the NBA's rule affects college basketball and the NCAA does not seem to want to do anything about it.

I have enjoyed the discussions but need to go for the night. I will be interested to see where this takes us. (Perhaps a separate thread.)

[jimsumner]

"But the main problem I have is that the NBA's rule affects college basketball and the NCAA does not seem to want to do anything about it. "

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, the NCAA cannot do anything about it. Nothing, nada, zilch. You're beating a very dead horse here.

[soccerstud2210]

does anyone have any news about the phone call tonight between wall and K?

[chrisheery]

can we talk about whether we are going to get? I thought tonight or tomorrow might give us some clues after this supposed K call.

[Greg_Newton]

I have enjoyed the discussions but need to go for the night. I will be interested to see where this takes us. (Perhaps a separate thread.)

Yes, this is an interesting debate, but could it be moved to its own thread? Given that there were 80-some posts to the Wall thread today alone, it's hard to sort through even without any tangential discussions.

[Channing]

"Indeed, if a high school senior challenged the current rule there is a decent chance it would be overturned as an unreasonable restriction"

As part of a Collective Bargaining Agreement, I'm pretty sure this restriction is legally protected.

admittedly my anti-trust law knowledge does not exceed the one course I took, however, I am not sure you bargain around federal statute? Could they collectively bargain around other workplace requirements?

[jimsumner]

Wall is talking about making a visit to Miami, so that would slow things down.
But I can't see Wall going to a football school that far away.

Our old friend Norm Sloan always said that he recruited the mothers as much as the players. How badly does Wall's mother want him to stay nearby? That could be the key.

But it is April, so it shouldn't take long either way.

[_Gary]

Good golly I hope Wall comes! I'm fully persuaded he will immediately elevate us to NCAA Championship contention. I don't even want to think about us not landing him. I get the very distinct impression that Coach K has put a lot of work into landing Wall and if we don't get him that's going to be 3 HUGE misses 3 straight years (Patterson, Monroe, Wall). I have a feeling this signing is probably bigger, on multiple levels, than most of us realize. But that's just my two cents looking from the outside in as a fan.

[CMS2478]

does anyone have any news about the phone call tonight between wall and K?

Anybody????

[SupaDave]

Good golly I hope Wall comes! I'm fully persuaded he will immediately elevate us to NCAA Championship contention. I don't even want to think about us not landing him. I get the very distinct impression that Coach K has put a lot of work into landing Wall and if we don't get him that's going to be 3 HUGE misses 3 straight years (Patterson, Monroe, Wall). I have a feeling this signing is probably bigger, on multiple levels, than most of us realize. But that's just my two cents looking from the outside in as a fan.

Come on G! You realize we've missed on recruits before right?

You do realize that we just got the most coveted transfer in the NCAA right?

The program is quite stable and considering some folks sentiments about Wall, I don't think that there will be a sizable groan if he decides another school is best for him and his future.

[K-Duke]

Good golly I hope Wall comes! I'm fully persuaded he will immediately elevate us to NCAA Championship contention. I don't even want to think about us not landing him. I get the very distinct impression that Coach K has put a lot of work into landing Wall and if we don't get him that's going to be 3 HUGE misses 3 straight years (Patterson, Monroe, Wall). I have a feeling this signing is probably bigger, on multiple levels, than most of us realize. But that's just my two cents looking from the outside in as a fan.

If Wall goes elsewhere, I don't think we can call it a "huge miss" in the same way we lost out on Patterson or Monroe. Sure, Wall is a great player, but Duke got involved with his recruitment really late in the process and for most of that time was considered a longshot. Recent developments have gotten our hopes up, but no one will really be at all surprised if he goes elsewhere.

[mph]

admittedly my anti-trust law knowledge does not exceed the one course I took, however, I am not sure you bargain around federal statute? Could they collectively bargain around other workplace requirements?

Mackey v NFL established a three-prong test to determine whether a collective bargaining agreement merits exemption from Sherman. There is debate about whether the NBA's CBA satisfies the test, but most of the legal analysis I've seen suggests it does.

1. "the restraint on trade primarily affects only parties to the collective bargaining relationship"

2. "the agreement sought to be exempted concerns a mandatory subject of collective bargaining

3. "the agreement sought to be exempted is the subject of bona fide arm’s-length bargaining"

[_Gary]

Come on G! You realize we've missed on recruits before right?

You do realize that we just got the most coveted transfer in the NCAA right?

The program is quite stable and considering some folks sentiments about Wall, I don't think that there will be a sizable groan if he decides another school is best for him and his future.

Of course I acknowledge that we've missed on recruits, even big time recruits, before. But I just feel like the last two bigs (P & M) were guys that Coach thought we had and thought we really, really needed. Just going by that last presser after the loss to 'Nova and all, I got the distinct impression he knows how big those misses were and I get the gut feeling that we need to land Wall in a bad way.

Yes, the program is very stable. I'm not suggesting the ship is sinking if we miss on him. But I think he would elevate us to Championship status, something that's not going to be quite as obtainable without him. Again, just my two cents. :)

[mph]

admittedly my anti-trust law knowledge does not exceed the one course I took, however, I am not sure you bargain around federal statute? Could they collectively bargain around other workplace requirements?

Also, the 2nd Circuit's decision in Clarett v NFL (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=title&v1=clarett) upheld the NFL's age requirement as a legitimate exemption to anti-trust laws.


Clarett, however, stresses that the eligibility rules are arbitrary and that requiring him to wait another football season has nothing to do with whether he is in fact qualified for professional play. But Clarett is in this respect no different from the typical worker who is confident that he or she has the skills to fill a job vacancy but does not possess the qualifications or meet the requisite criteria that have been set. In the context of this collective bargaining relationship, the NFL and its players union can agree that an employee will not be hired or considered for employment for nearly any reason whatsoever so long as they do not violate federal laws such as those prohibiting unfair labor practices, 29 U.S.C. § 201 et seq., or discrimination, 42 U.S.C. § 2000e et seq. See Reliance Ins. Cos. v. NLRB, 415 F.2d 1, 6 (8th Cir. 1969) (“[Employer is usually free to] pick and choose his employees and hire those he thinks will best serve his business interests.”). Any challenge to those criteria must “be founded on labor rather than antitrust law.”

[dgoore97]

Yes, this is an interesting debate, but could it be moved to its own thread? Given that there were 80-some posts to the Wall thread today alone, it's hard to sort through even without any tangential discussions.

Agreed -- maybe on the Wall thread we should talk about Wall...

[roywhite]

Agreed -- maybe on the Wall thread we should talk about Wall...

Last night's Mc-D game had a notable lack of good PG play. Not sure if this is just an off-year for Point Guards or just the nature of the all-star game. Mr. Wall's talents to penetrate and distribute the ball look even more desirable.

The planets may be aligning here in favor of a commitment to Duke. Just my opinion, or actually more my hope.

[CMS2478]

Last night's Mc-D game had a notable lack of good PG play. Not sure if this is just an off-year for Point Guards or just the nature of the all-star game. Mr. Wall's talents to penetrate and distribute the ball look even more desirable.

The planets may be aligning here in favor of a commitment to Duke. Just my opinion, or actually more my hope.

Your optimism is admirable, but I would place money (if I were a betting man) that Mr. Wall will penetrating and dishing to Patterson and Cousins next year. :(

[I_am_a_Blue_Devil]

over 100,000 views for this thread......impressive.....

[MAG0297]

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/school?schoolId=96&page=briefingroom&season=2009&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fschool%3fschoolId%3d96%2 6page%3dbriefingroom%26season%3d2009

Kentucky seems to be making room for a couple of new additions. Maybe its time to give some more serious consideration to Bledosoe. Your thoughts?

[Ian]

We're already giving Bledsoe serious consideration. We can't offer him until he get his scores up.

[MIKESJ73]

Did we already offer Kyrie Irving a scholarship? I don't remember hearing about that.

[CMS2478]

We're already giving Bledsoe serious consideration. We can't offer him until he get his scores up.

So we keep talking about "these scores" almost as much as the media talked about Ty's Toe. :rolleyes: Anybody actually know when he is set to take the test again......afterall the school year is drawing close to an end.

[gumbomoop]

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/school?schoolId=96&page=briefingroom&season=2009&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fschool%3fschoolId%3d96%2 6page%3dbriefingroom%26season%3d2009

Kentucky seems to be making room for a couple of new additions. Maybe its time to give some more serious consideration to Bledosoe. Your thoughts?

It's impossible to miss the "read between the lines" neon signs in the comments of the 3 "de-commits" at UK: "Coach Cal" said nothing encouraging to any of them, and was almost certainly brutally honest [strike that: "honest Calipari" is an oxymoron, so make it "brutally direct"] in telling one or two of them that they'd "have to prove they could play" in his system. No one on this board can be too surprised that the "domino effect" of Cal's hiring is huge for both the coaching carousel and the recruiting carousel. He intends to get Cousins and Wall, and will do whatever it takes.

[Bluedog]

So we keep talking about "these scores" almost as much as the media talked about Ty's Toe. :rolleyes: Anybody actually know when he is set to take the test again......afterall the school year is drawing close to an end.

There are only two ACT test dates left in the school year:
April 4, 2009
June 13, 2009

http://www.actstudent.org/regist/dates.html

I'd assume he'd take the one on Saturday and then the one in June only if necessary. So, we should know shortly. He's got to bring it up from a 15 to a 17 (with sum of all sections equaling at least 68). Certainly doable, and I expect him to do it if he's studied.

[BlueintheFace]

Also, the 2nd Circuit's decision in Clarett v NFL (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=title&v1=clarett) upheld the NFL's age requirement as a legitimate exemption to anti-trust laws.

What is confusing is that Clarett's lawyers brought suit in the Southern District of NY which funnels into the 2nd circuit of appeals, which has ALREADY SAID they didn't like the Mackey Test, which means that Clarett was screwed from the word go. I'm not so sure this will be settled law.

[CMS2478]

There are only two ACT test dates left in the school year:
April 4, 2009
June 13, 2009

http://www.actstudent.org/regist/dates.html

I'd assume he'd take the one on Saturday and then the one in June only if necessary. So, we should know shortly. He's got to bring it up from a 15 to a 17 (with sum of all sections equaling at least 68). Certainly doable, and I expect him to do it if he's studied.

Thanks for info Bluedog!!!

[CMS2478]

Had to post again to get off of post # 666. YIKES!!!! :eek:

[KyDevilinIL]

He intends to get Cousins and Wall, and will do whatever it takes.

Yep. I have no inside information on either front, but I'd be stunned at this point if Wall comes to Duke.

Calipari's nonsense yesterday about needing time to get things going at UK and whatnot was total fiction. This guy wants to come firing out of the gate, and the fanbase and the university are gonna let him do whatever he needs to do in order to make that happen. Barnhart didn't mention "compliance" a half dozen times at the news conference for no reason; those folks are going to be busy over the next few weeks.

Pure speculation: Whatever Wall's getting from Calipari/UK right now, I suspect it's a lot thicker and a lot sweeter than what he's getting from K/Duke. I don't give either Calipari or UK the benefit of the doubt in these matters, so I bet Duke's better off not trying to match UK's promises.

[Bluedog]

Thanks for info Bluedog!!!

No problem. Actually, though, I somewhat misspoke. We shouldn't really know shortly since I assume it takes a month or so to get the results....I think the writing section takes longer than the others.

[MIKESJ73]

It sounds like Wall is very open right now. I guess Duke isn't the only team that has buddies trying to persuade John.

http://www.kentucky.com/1034/story/745951.html

[dgoore97]

It sounds like Wall is very open right now. I guess Duke isn't the only team that has buddies trying to persuade John.

http://www.kentucky.com/1034/story/745951.html

but is Hood even going to be there? What about Daniel Orton?

[MIKESJ73]

You wouldn't think Orten would be too happy about having to get time from Patterson and Cousins. Also Meeks only shoots 30 times a game so there aren't going to be that many shots to go around.

[SilkyJ]

but is Hood even going to be there? What about Daniel Orton?

Did you read the article you quoted? He said he research coach calipari and that he liked his system. The second sentence quotes him as saying "I would like to stay on, stay at UK"

And while I suppose Calipari might not want him (or might rub him the wrong way, like he apparently has some other kids) I find that hard to imagine.

[GopherBlue]

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/school?schoolId=96&page=briefingroom&season=2009&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fschool%3fschoolId%3d96%2 6page%3dbriefingroom%26season%3d2009

Kentucky seems to be making room for a couple of new additions....

Wow, Cal is wasting no time earning his $35M (and living up to his rep) - certainly there was some 'encouragement' from the new UK staff for these 3 young men to 'reopen' their recruitment.

Presumably each recruit had signed a LOI to accept a UK scholarship - doesn't the commitment work both ways? This practice may not be against the letter of the law, but it sure is shady in my book.

Doesn't sound like a guy with the best interests of his young men in mind.

[RoyalBlue08]

Wow, Cal is wasting no time earning his $35M (and living up to his rep) - certainly there was some 'encouragement' from the new UK staff for these 3 young men to 'reopen' their recruitment.

Presumably each recruit had signed a LOI to accept a UK scholarship - doesn't the commitment work both ways? This practice may not be against the letter of the law, but it sure is shady in my book.

Doesn't sound like a guy with the best interests of his young men in mind.

I'm sure the encouragement was something like, "How does four years of sitting the bench sound to you?"

[dgoore97]

Did you read the article you quoted? He said he research coach calipari and that he liked his system. The second sentence quotes him as saying "I would like to stay on, stay at UK"

And while I suppose Calipari might not want him (or might rub him the wrong way, like he apparently has some other kids) I find that hard to imagine.


I read the article, which is how i knew Hodd was recruiting wall, just thinking with all the moving parts, Cal letting Kentucky recruits go on a wholesale basis, not sure Hood's spot is secure enough to be recruiting anyone else..

[Capn Poptart]

One of the best coaches, basketball programs and universities in America, with a huge PG need, 30 minutes from his house, where his family can watch him play? Seems like this kid is bending over backward not to want to come to Duke.

[moonpie23]

oh, and to that person that was questioning whether or not a young recruit would "know" or "care" about being put into play in the same way that Jason Williams was?

John grew UP around here......he definitely knows who jason williams is..(and WAS)

[DUKIECB]

One of the best coaches, basketball programs and universities in America, with a huge PG need, 30 minutes from his house, where his family can watch him play? Seems like this kid is bending over backward not to want to come to Duke.

I don't think this is true at all. Maybe the kid just wants to gather all the information he can before he makes his decision. I'm not saying he's going to come to Duke, but it seems to me that he truly doesn't know where he will be playing next year. At least not yet. If I was a betting man, right now I would say that he will probably end up a Kentucky but that's just a guess. And even if he does that doesn't mean that he tried to find reasons not to come to Duke, just that maybe he felt he would flourish there.

By the way, has anyone got any news on how the phone call between K and Wall went yesterday?

[Rudy]

One of the best coaches, basketball programs and universities in America, with a huge PG need, 30 minutes from his house, where his family can watch him play? Seems like this kid is bending over backward not to want to come to Duke.

Sometimes going to college is about getting away from your home town. For a lot of kids 30 minutes away is at least 2-4 hours too close. There are a lot of variables for any kid. Only Wall can determine what's most important to him. That Duke is still in the running is a good sign.

When does he have to decide? (Sorry if this has been listed before in this long string)

[yancem]

Wow, Cal is wasting no time earning his $35M (and living up to his rep) - certainly there was some 'encouragement' from the new UK staff for these 3 young men to 'reopen' their recruitment.

Presumably each recruit had signed a LOI to accept a UK scholarship - doesn't the commitment work both ways? This practice may not be against the letter of the law, but it sure is shady in my book.

Doesn't sound like a guy with the best interests of his young men in mind.

I know that this is the popular sentiment around here but exactly what do you think that cal should be doing? He was brought in to win basketball games and the old style of play and the current players weren't doing that. He has a style of play that is a proven winner so that is what he is going to install. Some of the current players and recruits might not fit his system. Now if he is starting conversations with these players with "I think that you suck and there is no way I am going to play you so why don't you leave so I can recruit some real players" then yeah he's a scum bag. But if he sits down with them and discusses his system and what he looking for from his players and the two of them discuss how the player would fit and if he would be comfortable with his role, then I don't see what else he is supposed to do.

Would you rather him say hey you were recruited by the previous coach but I think you will fit in just fine with my system and then turn around and sit them on the bench because they really don't fit his system. I think an honest evaluation of what can be expected during the players career under Cal's system, is best for both parties. Some of KU's players/recruits are pretty talented and might go on to have good careers at another school. I'd rather see that then them wasting away on the bench.

[Greg_Newton]

A hilarious April Fools quote from Mr. Calipari:


“What I would hope is all the players that signed at Memphis will go to Memphis,” Calipari said at his introductory press conference at Kentucky.

Yeah, I bet...

[Mike Corey]

One of the best coaches, basketball programs and universities in America, with a huge PG need, 30 minutes from his house, where his family can watch him play? Seems like this kid is bending over backward not to want to come to Duke.

This is not true.

[BD80]

I know that this is the popular sentiment around here but exactly what do you think that cal should be doing? He was brought in to win basketball games and the old style of play and the current players weren't doing that. He has a style of play that is a proven winner so that is what he is going to install. Some of the current players and recruits might not fit his system. ... But if he sits down with them and discusses his system and what he looking for from his players and the two of them discuss how the player would fit and if he would be comfortable with his role, then I don't see what else he is supposed to do.

Would you rather him say hey you were recruited by the previous coach but I think you will fit in just fine with my system and then turn around and sit them on the bench because they really don't fit his system. I think an honest evaluation of what can be expected during the players career under Cal's system, is best for both parties. Some of KU's players/recruits are pretty talented and might go on to have good careers at another school. I'd rather see that then them wasting away on the bench.

He should make the best team with the players his school COMMITTED to. The reason two point guard recruits are leaving is because Calipari wants to bring in ANOTHER point guard. If Cal stayed with the current players and recruits, the PG recruits would certainly play. At least one of the "decommitting" kids was recruited by Cal at Memphis - but he can't play in Cal's system?

What if he didn't have Wall or Bledsoe waiting in the wings, or need the schollies so badly for top five recruits (and brothers). Would he still be so "honest" with both of the PG recruits, or would he wait a year so he would have a passable point guard and then just recruit over the kids?

[Edouble]

One of the best coaches, basketball programs and universities in America, with a huge PG need, 30 minutes from his house, where his family can watch him play? Seems like this kid is bending over backward not to want to come to Duke.

Kentucky also has one of the best coaches in America. Kentucky is also a traditional power and once Cal gets things going, Kentucky will be one of the best active programs again. Wall will get just as much burn at Kentucky as he will at Duke. I'm not sure that the quality of the University and the distance from his home are top factors in a decision like this. Kentucky and Duke are probably both great choices for Wall.

[bill brill]

I think the ncaa should pass a rule that acknowledges players sign most often for the coach, not the school: the player can transfer or void a LOI and go elsewhere, only not to where the ex-coach is. he only has 342 choices. and I'd love to see the NBA rescind the one-year and 19 years old rule and go back to the high school kids going pro if they wish. I never missed kobe or lebron or kevin gartnett because they never came. the rule benefits only the pros, who get a chance to see the kids for one year against much superior competition, thus it's draft helpful. it's just a bad rule for the kids themselves, and too many guys become one-and-doners who aren't nearly ready. bb

[NYDukie]

He should make the best team with the players his school COMMITTED to. The reason two point guard recruits are leaving is because Calipari wants to bring in ANOTHER point guard. If Cal stayed with the current players and recruits, the PG recruits would certainly play. At least one of the "decommitting" kids was recruited by Cal at Memphis - but he can't play in Cal's system?

What if he didn't have Wall or Bledsoe waiting in the wings, or need the schollies so badly for top five recruits (and brothers). Would he still be so "honest" with both of the PG recruits, or would he wait a year so he would have a passable point guard and then just recruit over the kids?

As unfortunate as this may sound but let's call a spade a spade. Most high revenue college athletic teams are all about the $$$ and "me". This relates mainly to the BCS schools and the various other high level basketball only schools. You have approximately 300 division I basketball teams and I would think the a majority, if not all them are in it to generate $$$. Some just have better resources to do so.

On the flip side, most of their recruits of these top basketball programs are in it for the possiblity to make it to the league. As a result most are looking for a coach to get them to their goal. In the end, the schools are using the recruits as much as the recruits are using the schools. I have read some posts suggest these recruits as just "kids" but let's be honest, most of them have been hustling on the AAU circuit, etc for years and know this is a big $$$ industry.

That said, as much as I don't like Cal, to say he has to stick to a COMMITTED recruit while said recruit can just as easily leave is not fair either. Personally, whevenver there is a coaching change, just let all parties involved have the right to transfer, reopen their recruiting, rescind scholarship offers, etc. I know this may seem harsh but why pretend to be ethical about a system that obviously is not. I'm sure I will be ripped for this on the board but there are only a few programs that probably operate with some moral code at the top level.

[yancem]

He should make the best team with the players his school COMMITTED to. The reason two point guard recruits are leaving is because Calipari wants to bring in ANOTHER point guard. If Cal stayed with the current players and recruits, the PG recruits would certainly play. At least one of the "decommitting" kids was recruited by Cal at Memphis - but he can't play in Cal's system?

What if he didn't have Wall or Bledsoe waiting in the wings, or need the schollies so badly for top five recruits (and brothers). Would he still be so "honest" with both of the PG recruits, or would he wait a year so he would have a passable point guard and then just recruit over the kids?

Did you maybe think that the "decommitting" player that Cal recruited chose KU because he didn't want to play for Cal and so he is now "decommitting" because Cal is now the coach of KU. Also, if Cal did recruit this player to play for Memphis, how do you know he doesn't want him to stay? Look, I'm not saying I like Cal or KU or any of the circumstances involved but when there are coaching changes both players and coach can be in a difficult position. Until we hear that Cal said something like "I don't like you go play for someone else" I think we shouldn't rush to say it's all his fault and that he's mistreating the players.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Until we hear that Cal said something like "I don't like you go play for someone else" I think we shouldn't rush to say it's all his fault and that he's mistreating the players.

combined with the major scholarship crunch, this seems pretty clear to me:

from yesterday:

Vilarino's father, Gerry, said G.J. will wait and see. "Our commitment (to UK) has been strong all the way, and that's always going to be that way," Gerry Vilarino said.
from today:

"We spoke and felt it would not be a good fit," Gerry Vilarino said of the family and newly hired head coach John Calipari.


by the way, the henrys' dad said that Cal had already told the sone at memphis Cal wanted him to follow Cal to UK. how is that not tampering???

[quickgtp]

http://new.kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=16672

Lets face it, Wall will end up at Kentucky. Calipari will turn the Wildcats into the New York Yankees of college basketball.

[Kedsy]

Did you maybe think that the "decommitting" player that Cal recruited chose KU because he didn't want to play for Cal and so he is now "decommitting" because Cal is now the coach of KU. Also, if Cal did recruit this player to play for Memphis, how do you know he doesn't want him to stay? Look, I'm not saying I like Cal or KU or any of the circumstances involved but when there are coaching changes both players and coach can be in a difficult position. Until we hear that Cal said something like "I don't like you go play for someone else" I think we shouldn't rush to say it's all his fault and that he's mistreating the players.

Minor quibble: "KU" is Kansas. Kentucky is "UK."

[Mike Corey]

http://new.kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=16672

Lets face it, Wall will end up at Kentucky. Calipari will turn the Wildcats into the New York Yankees of college basketball.

He's citing Bob "I hate Duke" Gibbons.

If others come along and say that Wall is favoring UK, then that'll be one thing. But Gibbons isn't exactly a trustworthy source on this one, IMO.

[quickgtp]

Mike, do you honestly think Duke will land Wall? I am pretty optimistic for the program overall, but I really think Duke is wasting its time.

I am not a betting man, but if I were, I would place a large sum on Wall to UK. I don't trust Calipari, and something smells very funny.

[Mike Corey]

I honestly don't know. I share your optimism for the overall program--and your distrust for Calipari--but I don't think Duke is wasting its time on this one.

It may not work in our favor in the end, certainly. And it is certainly possible that Wall is "stringing" Duke along. Recruits have done that at other schools and in other sports in the past--and certainly it's happened to Duke bball.

A few months back, an Oregon/Ohio State/Clemson football recruit committed to all three schools a few nights before making his official announcement. Obviously, he picked one of the three, startling two.

Other recruits only pay lip service for the attention. This doesn't just happen in recruiting, either.

Granted, I'm not as well-versed in the nuances of this particular saga as some. But my sense is that Wall is weighing his options, and that Duke is well-positioned on the scale alongside a few other options, Kentucky among them.

[JDev]

I think it is tough for Duke because Wall was initially a Memphis lean which means that to a certain extent he was a Calipari lean. I do not think that Cal's move to UK will change that a great deal. Cal still has the same system and the same desire for Wall to be part of that system. The things that appealed to Wall about Memphis are going to more than likely also appeal to him with UK.
I do think that Wall's visit to Duke, which evidently went well, is a good sign. It gave him the opportunity to have some face-time with Coach and to see the facilities. K was able to personally tell him his potential roll on the team as it moves forward. Duke does have some great things to offer Wall and his specific situation (a need at PG, great coach, great facilities, great conference, great teammates, mom being driving distance to approx. 75% of games, etc.).
I think Duke is in the mix, just maybe not in the "pole position." However, Coach K's track record speaks for itself so anything can happen.

[houstondukie]

Mike, do you honestly think Duke will land Wall? I am pretty optimistic for the program overall, but I really think Duke is wasting its time.

I am not a betting man, but if I were, I would place a large sum on Wall to UK. I don't trust Calipari, and something smells very funny.

Jerry Meyer of RIVALS.com says "Duke is the team to keep an eye on."

[quickgtp]

Thanks for the reply. I certainly hope that I am wrong in the end!

I also read on another board that K is visiting with Wall again tonight? Anyone hear/read the same thing? Probably just a rumor, but I was wondering if anyone can confirm that.

[BlueintheFace]

DOOOOOM. Kentucky will RULE the world!!!

Nobody knows anything right now, but everyone is an expert.

[gumbomoop]

I know that this is the popular sentiment around here but exactly what do you think that cal should be doing? Now if he is starting conversations with these players with "I think that you suck and there is no way I am going to play you so why don't you leave so I can recruit some real players" then yeah he's a scum bag. But if he sits down with them and discusses his system and what he looking for from his players and the two of them discuss how the player would fit and if he would be comfortable with his role, then I don't see what else he is supposed to do.

Your general point is well worth considering, but there's no evidence at all that Cal "sat down with any of them," and plenty that he had phone conversations that at the very least implicitly encouraged their "de-commitment." I'll repeat from my earlier post that the "read between the lines" signals in the several de-commitment comments are neon-bright.

This particular coaching carousel moment probably captures the smelliness of recruitment, involving as it does a great, but recently embarrassing and thus inordinately desperate, program, a big name coach with a sketchy past, a #1 recruiting class now scattering to the winds, not to mention the great program's desire to stick it to their former, still in-state, hero.

[quickgtp]

DOOOOOM. Kentucky will RULE the world!!!

Nobody knows anything right now, but everyone is an expert.

I understand what you are saying but take a look at the bigger picture: Duke is being out-recruited right now. There is no nice way to put it.

[BlueintheFace]

I understand what you are saying but take a look at the bigger picture: Duke is being out-recruited right now. There is no nice way to put it.

No, I am commenting on the fact that people are pointing to every quote available to come to a variety of conclusions, when really every single quote by John Wall (and those around him) are just attempts to be non-committal while acknowledging which school are still in it.

[quickgtp]

No, I am commenting on the fact that people are pointing to every quote available to come to a variety of conclusions, when really every single quote by John Wall (and those around him) are just attempts to be non-committal while acknowledging which school are still in it.

True, true, I guess we just need to wait and see! Ugh, I hate waiting.

[yancem]

Minor quibble: "KU" is Kansas. Kentucky is "UK."

Yeah, dumb mistake. I was trying to type something quick while I was at work.

[soccerstud2210]

Mike, do you honestly think Duke will land Wall? I am pretty optimistic for the program overall, but I really think Duke is wasting its time.

I am not a betting man, but if I were, I would place a large sum on Wall to UK. I don't trust Calipari, and something smells very funny.

"Vilarino's father, Gerry, said G.J. will wait and see. "Our commitment (to UK) has been strong all the way, and that's always going to be that way," Gerry Vilarino said.
from today:

"We spoke and felt it would not be a good fit," Gerry Vilarino said of the family and newly hired head coach John Calipari.


by the way, the henrys' dad said that Cal had already told the sone at memphis Cal wanted him to follow Cal to UK. how is that not tampering???"
-from duke79unlv77

this is what smells funny. actually it doesn't smell funny. it is what i expected from CAL. disappointing, but not a surprise

[MChambers]

http://new.kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=16672

Lets face it, Wall will end up at Kentucky. Calipari will turn the Wildcats into the New York Yankees of college basketball.

I take it you mean the biggest payroll, but no championships? I'm good with that.

[MChambers]

I understand what you are saying but take a look at the bigger picture: Duke is being out-recruited right now. There is no nice way to put it.

Absolutely, only two Mickie D's this year. Man, watch out for those pieces of sky!

[quickgtp]

Absolutely, only two Mickie D's this year. Man, watch out for those pieces of sky!

Dude, come on, I know the sky isn't falling but neither Mason or Kelly fill any voids that are holding this team back.

[quickgtp]

I take it you mean the biggest payroll, but no championships? I'm good with that.

No, not championships every year, but they will win a few here and there.

[roywhite]

Dude, come on, I know the sky isn't falling but neither Mason or Kelly fill any voids that are holding this team back.

Really? A little early to say that, don't you think?

Could this year's team have used an athletic 6'11" guy who could score around the basket, rebound, and block or alter a few shots?

Could they have used a 6'10" shooter who could come in and give them offense when starters weren't hitting?

[RelativeWays]

How are we able to judge players' ability to contribute to Duke and "fill holes on the team" when they haven't played one game for Duke?

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Really? A little early to say that, don't you think?

Could this year's team have used an athletic 6'11" guy who could score around the basket, rebound, and block or alter a few shots?

Could they have used a 6'10" shooter who could come in and give them offense when starters weren't hitting?

Duke could have used J.J. Redick last season, because every team in the NCAA could always use a guy like that. But J.J. Redick isn't a low-post banger that blocks lots of shots and gets easy buckets from point-blank range. He also isn't a quick PG that can slice through a defense and set up easy shots for his teammates. Every indication is that Kelly and Plumlee aren't those things either. They are great recruits who should become very good players and we can more than "use" smart, talented guys like these, in fact we're lucky to have them.

But quickgtp said that they don't "fill any voids" and we're hardly void in terms of wing forwards. Maybe Plumlee will step in at the 5 and own the paint like Elton or Kelly can be a "Point Forward" like Grant Hill, but nothing in their past performance suggest that they will. John Wall would fill a glaring hole in our lineup, so he would be a uniquely valuable recruit. There's no shame in admitting that, and no reason to pretend otherwise.

[Kedsy]

Duke could have used J.J. Redick last season, because every team in the NCAA could always use a guy like that. But J.J. Redick isn't a low-post banger that blocks lots of shots and gets easy buckets from point-blank range. He also isn't a quick PG that can slice through a defense and set up easy shots for his teammates. Every indication is that Kelly and Plumlee aren't those things either. They are great recruits who should become very good players and we can more than "use" smart, talented guys like these, in fact we're lucky to have them.

But quickgtp said that they don't "fill any voids" and we're hardly void in terms of wing forwards. Maybe Plumlee will step in at the 5 and own the paint like Elton or Kelly can be a "Point Forward" like Grant Hill, but nothing in their past performance suggest that they will. John Wall would fill a glaring hole in our lineup, so he would be a uniquely valuable recruit. There's no shame in admitting that, and no reason to pretend otherwise.

Ah, but you are quoting the end of a discussion that started with quickgtp saying "take a look at the bigger picture: Duke is being out-recruited right now. There is no nice way to put it."

Would Duke benefit from a player like Wall in the lineup? Absolutely. If we don't get him does that mean we're being "out-recruited"? I hardly think so. People seem to think that simply identifying a need and a desire for a player somehow entitles us to get that player, but the fact is there are only a handful of current high school players who would "fill a void" in Duke's lineup. Most of them don't seem to fit at Duke for academic or other reasons, which leaves one or two guys at the top of our wish list. If we miss out on those one or two guys the only possible explanation is we're being out-recruited? More likely certain fans are competing to see who's most out-deluded.

[quickgtp]

Duke could have used J.J. Redick last season, because every team in the NCAA could always use a guy like that. But J.J. Redick isn't a low-post banger that blocks lots of shots and gets easy buckets from point-blank range. He also isn't a quick PG that can slice through a defense and set up easy shots for his teammates. Every indication is that Kelly and Plumlee aren't those things either. They are great recruits who should become very good players and we can more than "use" smart, talented guys like these, in fact we're lucky to have them.

But quickgtp said that they don't "fill any voids" and we're hardly void in terms of wing forwards. Maybe Plumlee will step in at the 5 and own the paint like Elton or Kelly can be a "Point Forward" like Grant Hill, but nothing in their past performance suggest that they will. John Wall would fill a glaring hole in our lineup, so he would be a uniquely valuable recruit. There's no shame in admitting that, and no reason to pretend otherwise.

Great post. Kelly is not, and will not be the answer in the post. Plumlee may have that chance, but with his frame as it is now he would get pushed around in ACC play. I have high hopes for both, but the point is we're not getting the recruits THIS YEAR to move much closer to a title.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Ah, but you are quoting the end of a discussion that started with quickgtp saying "take a look at the bigger picture: Duke is being out-recruited right now. There is no nice way to put it."

Would Duke benefit from a player like Wall in the lineup? Absolutely. If we don't get him does that mean we're being "out-recruited"? I hardly think so. People seem to think that simply identifying a need and a desire for a player somehow entitles us to get that player, but the fact is there are only a handful of current high school players who would "fill a void" in Duke's lineup. Most of them don't seem to fit at Duke for academic or other reasons, which leaves one or two guys at the top of our wish list. If we miss out on those one or two guys the only possible explanation is we're being out-recruited? More likely certain fans are competing to see who's most out-deluded.

I'm not sure how I come down on the larger issue of our recruiting, particularly since the Olympics have had such an effect. I think there are good arguments both ways. We've certainly gone through a dry spell in terms of 5's as of late, and Donovan took our entire projected class (Boynton, Painter, Murphy) which is a pretty stark example of being out-recruited, IMO. OTOH, we've landed some great wings even with the entire staff out of commission for much of the off-season. And, as the UF class demonstrates, second choices (Plumlee) can work out much better than first choices (Murphy).

But for a specific player, if two schools go head-to-head and one school lands the player, hasn't the other, by definition, been "out-recruited"?

[Kewlswim]

Absolutely, only two Mickie D's this year. Man, watch out for those pieces of sky!

Hi,

I wasn't sure what was meant about Duke being out-recruited. How do we know we are being out-recruited? How do we know if the kids we want to come here would make good Duke students? How do we know that Coach K isn't doing wonderful recruiting? The truth is we don't know.

I know that lots of people like to talk about Dock and a few others as evidence that Coach K can get any kid he wants into Duke, but I don't think that is true. I think there are many kids who just can't be admitted to Duke and Coach K has only a few silver bullets to fire when a kid is simply not close to qualifying. Some kids just don't want to go to Duke. When titrated out there are a small number of kids who are ones we would like, who are able to be admitted, and who want to enroll at Duke. I am pleased we do as well as we do in most years.

GO DUKE!

[roywhite]

Duke could have used J.J. Redick last season, because every team in the NCAA could always use a guy like that. But J.J. Redick isn't a low-post banger that blocks lots of shots and gets easy buckets from point-blank range. He also isn't a quick PG that can slice through a defense and set up easy shots for his teammates. Every indication is that Kelly and Plumlee aren't those things either. They are great recruits who should become very good players and we can more than "use" smart, talented guys like these, in fact we're lucky to have them.

But quickgtp said that they don't "fill any voids" and we're hardly void in terms of wing forwards. Maybe Plumlee will step in at the 5 and own the paint like Elton or Kelly can be a "Point Forward" like Grant Hill, but nothing in their past performance suggest that they will. John Wall would fill a glaring hole in our lineup, so he would be a uniquely valuable recruit. There's no shame in admitting that, and no reason to pretend otherwise.

Man, you guys are tough.

You don't think talented 6'10" and 6'11" guys help us, or fill voids?? That they can't score inside, rebound or play defense, and you're absolutely convinced of this....because of their McDonald's game performance?

We've got 2 good players with size and ability. Of course, they'll help.

Since this is a John Wall thread, let's mention him also. Would he fill a void? Of course he would. And Duke is recruiting him...trying to get him...and apparently has a chance.

Way too early on the negativity about recruiting.

[Kedsy]

But for a specific player, if two schools go head-to-head and one school lands the player, hasn't the other, by definition, been "out-recruited"?

I suppose if you are talking about a single incident, there is a literal equivalence between losing a single player and being out-recruited. That wasn't my impression of what the original poster was trying to say.

My interpretation was that the original poster was saying something you hear a lot around these boards, namely that there has been a pattern of poor recruiting at Duke in recent years that has led us into the dire straights we now find ourselves (and I say that last part with the utmost sarcasm). I have read many posts like this, and they generally go on to name Patterson, Monroe, and Boynton, and act as if invoking those three heinous failures is all the evidence they need to prove beyond doubt that the staff has lost its touch.

And I don't get it. The "tragic misses" are pretty much all top 20 recruits. There are lots of solid basketball programs out there, at good schools with fine traditions and good or great coaches, and they're all going after the same 20 players (although as we know Duke can't actually go after all 20 because of academic and other issues). None of these schools are going to get everyone they want, it simply isn't going to happen. Moreover, the biggest competition is for the two positions we seem to need most -- a beast in the paint and an uber-quick PG. There might be 5 or 6 kids a year combined that fit either of those descriptions, and again the majority of them are unavailable for Duke even if they want to come here. So it boils down to 1 or 2 kids a year that we want and everyone else wants too. Why would any rational individual believe that we should get them all? Or even half of them?

Let's say Duke is one of the ten premier programs in the nation, and they all want every kid we want. Yes, I know it's an oversimplification, but if you accept the premises that there only one or two players each year that "fill a void" in our lineup and that there are 9 other programs that look equally attractive to recruits, the law of averages says we should get one or two of these top players every ten years, yet we've done significantly better that that over the past ten years.

And that's just PG and C and doesn't count the amazing recruiting success we've achieved with wing players recently, attracting players which were also sought by all the other top programs.

So I don't think we're being "out-recruited" at all. That's all I'm saying.

[G man]

I understand the concern everyone has had with the losses in recruiting battles with Kentucky, and G town, but what has Patterson and Monroe done except loose on bad teams. Has anyone forgotten that we stole Henderson from Nova, Singler from UCLA/ Oregon, and Scheyer from Illinois? This is just recently. Also McRoberts from Indiana (even though I can't stand him), and both Plumlee's are originally from Indiana as well. Not to mention maybe the biggest steal of them all Elliot Williams who is from Memphis. So I think recruiting is fine. We just have had some bad breaks. We will rebound!

[DukieBoy]

Is there a set date that Wall said he would announce where he's going?

[Devilsfan]

I hope we land Wall on Duke's merits and the young man's future being so much brighter by going to Duke. I hope the good guys win one this time.

[NYDukie]

that unless you have a Brand/Battier/Avery, JWill/Boozer/Dun or even JJ/Sheldon class walk through the doors, most will not be happy.

Then again, when McBobs and Paulus was coming in, everyone was doing backflips and thought a Final 4 and NC was destined again for the Duke faithful. We all know how that went!

Let Mason and Plumlee develop and maybe with either Wall (I highly doubt he will wind up at Duke) or Bledsoe (seems like a Dockery type kid who wants to come to Duke but who just needs to get the grades in line one final time) we will be pleasantly surprised.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

My interpretation was that the original poster was saying something you hear a lot around these boards, namely that there has been a pattern of poor recruiting at Duke in recent years that has led us into the dire straights we now find ourselves (and I say that last part with the utmost sarcasm). I have read many posts like this, and they generally go on to name Patterson, Monroe, and Boynton, and act as if invoking those three heinous failures is all the evidence they need to prove beyond doubt that the staff has lost its touch.

As I say, I'm very much on the fence about whether or not we've been "out-recruited" over the past 5-6 seasons. The concern you mention, which unfortunately seems to be either over-dramatized or completely dismissed is about a lot more than last year's class.

Since we grabbed Shel in 2002 we've had a really miserable string of misses for players of that type: Kaun, Hump, Brockman, Wright, Patterson, Monroe, etc were all identified as real needs for the program and all went elsewhere. I get that we have restrictions other programs don't and that we won't (and never have) landed every player we want. But that's still a major run of misses for one position that the staff identified as a priority. And it hasn't helped that when posters have lamented these misses in the past we've been dismissed because "Patterson/Monroe, etc will be here next year and you'll look silly for worrying."

I do agree with you that a lot of people have overstated the problem, particularly since there's a very good explanation: the entire staff's attention was focused on the Olympics, but is now back to 100%. At the same time, it's hard to ignore the fact that we've whiffed on every major 5 recruit (arguably not including projected 1 year solution McBob) since 2002. It's also hard to ignore the fact that having no PG and no C for the last few seasons has put us at a very real competitive disadvantage. K said essentially that after the 'Nova game.

Honestly, I think the extreme tone both sides adopt pushes the other to sound more extreme as well. I think there's a middle ground for our discussion. Let's recognize that the staff's attention was divided and as a result of that, UNC's resurgence, bad luck, and a variety of other factors we've cooled off substantially from the amazing highs of early in the decade. Let's also recognize that the sky isn't falling, that it's unrealistic to expect any program to stay as hot as we were, and that we're still landing a lot of amazing players including Kelly and Plumlee. Anyway, this discussion has been beaten well past death, so let's agree that both sides have some good points and get back to discussing the guy this thread is about: John Wall.

[quickgtp]

that unless you have a Brand/Battier/Avery, JWill/Boozer/Dun or even JJ/Sheldon class walk through the doors, most will not be happy.

Then again, when McBobs and Paulus was coming in, everyone was doing backflips and thought a Final 4 and NC was destined again for the Duke faithful. We all know how that went!

Let Mason and Plumlee develop and maybe with either Wall (I highly doubt he will wind up at Duke) or Bledsoe (seems like a Dockery type kid who wants to come to Duke but who just needs to get the grades in line one final time) we will be pleasantly surprised.

You can exclude me from "everyone!" I wasn't very happy when we got Paulus. I am no Nostradamus, but I could see his lack of athletic ability from day one!

My point is that we NEED TO FILL OUR VOIDS. What true big wants to come to Duke at this point?

[_Gary]

As I say, I'm very much on the fence about whether or not we've been "out-recruited" over the past 5-6 seasons. The concern you mention, which unfortunately seems to be either over-dramatized or completely dismissed is about a lot more than last year's class.

Since we grabbed Shel in 2002 we've had a really miserable string of misses for players of that type: Kaun, Hump, Brockman, Wright, Patterson, Monroe, etc were all identified as real needs for the program and all went elsewhere. I get that we have restrictions other programs don't and that we won't (and never have) landed every player we want. But that's still a major run of misses for one position that the staff identified as a priority. And it hasn't helped that when posters have lamented these misses in the past we've been dismissed because "Patterson/Monroe, etc will be here next year and you'll look silly for worrying."

I do agree with you that a lot of people have overstated the problem, particularly since there's a very good explanation: the entire staff's attention was focused on the Olympics, but is now back to 100%. At the same time, it's hard to ignore the fact that we've whiffed on every major 5 recruit (arguably not including projected 1 year solution McBob) since 2002. It's also hard to ignore the fact that having no PG and no C for the last few seasons has put us at a very real competitive disadvantage. K said essentially that after the 'Nova game.

Honestly, I think the extreme tone both sides adopt pushes the other to sound more extreme as well. I think there's a middle ground for our discussion. Let's recognize that the staff's attention was divided and as a result of that, UNC's resurgence, bad luck, and a variety of other factors we've cooled off substantially from the amazing highs of early in the decade. Let's also recognize that the sky isn't falling, that it's unrealistic to expect any program to stay as hot as we were, and that we're still landing a lot of amazing players including Kelly and Plumlee. Anyway, this discussion has been beaten well past death, so let's agree that both sides have some good points and get back to discussing the guy this thread is about: John Wall.


I think that entire post is well worded and communicates my position accurately. Thanks, DDD.

It is still my belief that this recruit is key. I believe the signs indicate Coach is going very, very hard after this kid because he knows how desperate we are for a solid PG. If we miss it does add to the string of recent misses that really have/will hurt us. As always, that's just my humble opinion.

[SupaDave]

I understand the concern everyone has had with the losses in recruiting battles with Kentucky, and G town, but what has Patterson and Monroe done except loose on bad teams. Has anyone forgotten that we stole Henderson from Nova, Singler from UCLA/ Oregon, and Scheyer from Illinois? This is just recently. Also McRoberts from Indiana (even though I can't stand him), and both Plumlee's are originally from Indiana as well. Not to mention maybe the biggest steal of them all Elliot Williams who is from Memphis. So I think recruiting is fine. We just have had some bad breaks. We will rebound!

Excellent post except how do you "rebound" from an 30 win, ACC Championship, Sweet 16 season? Let's keep things in perspective. You can have all the talent in the world and still LOSE. THEN what will you say?

Recruits come in waves and sometimes when certain recruits go places they will have followers and friends latch on as well - like what was GOING to happen at Memphis. Our 2010 class has a chance to be VERY special and we'll be LOADED in 2011. Let this be the end of that conversation and get this thread back on Wall.

[whereinthehellami]

IC and Devil's Den are reporting that UNC and Wall are now talking. Rumor is that Wall contacted Roy. Not good, that would be a dagger to lose him to UNC.

[mr. synellinden]

IC and Devil's Den are reporting that UNC and Wall are now talking. Rumor is that Wall contacted Roy. Not good, that would be a dagger to lose him to UNC.

On the positive side, although it is tough to find one, maybe that shows he is not thrilled with KY situation and wants to stay close to home.

[whereinthehellami]

I guess. I just got a bad feeling on this one. UNC would be just unreal next year with Wall.

[MAG0297]

I could handle it if Wall went to UK, if he goes to UNC it would be quite depressing.

[Edouble]

My point is that we NEED TO FILL OUR VOIDS. What true big wants to come to Duke at this point?

Was this a retorical question? I didn't quite understand this last part.

[DBFAN]

I hate to say this, hopefully Wall is just checking out all the options, but with Lawson more than likely leaving, Wall would love the chance to play with that group. This is just unreal. If he goes there, they will be another final 4 team. I am going to save my doom and gloom speech, until he commits there. Hopefully that will not happen.

[jv001]

I guess. I just got a bad feeling on this one. UNC would be just unreal next year with Wall.

I have not had a good feeling about John Wall playing at Duke since we began recruiting him. Go Duke!

[MAG0297]

On the positive side, although it is tough to find one, maybe that shows he is not thrilled with KY situation and wants to stay close to home.

I hope you are right, but the contact with UNC would suggest he isnt thrilled with the Duke situation either. If he went to UNC, we also wouldn't be able to say we missed on him because we started recruiting so late; this would be the worst possible scenario IMO.

Isn't Roy on record saying he was turned off by Wall because he didn't want to deal with "handlers?" Not that this would stop him, just wondering.

[G man]

If wall ends up at UNC I will cry myself to sleep every night. Like everyone else said if he goes to UK I will live we get Bledsoe no big deal. If we goes to UNC I might go insane. Has anyone read the new rivals piece on wall?

[Duvall]

Clearly, this is time for our posters to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside.

[moonpie23]

what did it say? is UNC suddenly in the fray?

[jv001]

If wall ends up at UNC I will cry myself to sleep every night. Like everyone else said if he goes to UK I will live we get Bledsoe no big deal. If we goes to UNC I might go insane. Has anyone read the new rivals piece on wall?

We have to remember unc has that basket weaving class he could take. Go Duke!

[Carlos]

From the article I read, it was Roy contacting Wall, not the other way around. That's a huge difference.

[jacalcio18]

Please tell me this is a joke about UNC. Do they even have another scholarship to give? They have 5 commits coming next year. Can someone clarify what the article said about Wall contacting UNC? I hope, barring this is true, that we are covering our tails b/c we need a true PG for next year. Hopefully Bledsoe is still in the picture. I'm not liking this new development at all.

[whereinthehellami]

From what I can gather, one of Wall's handlers (Clifton) might have lost some influence and that is why Coach K got involved (and then Roy). I've seen some saying that Wall called Roy and others saying that Roy called Wall. Either way I think its safe to say that UNC is right in the middle of it now. There was some mutual interest between Wall and UNC a year or so ago but there was some issues between Roy and Clifton that shut down the UNC interest. Not a good development for Duke.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Kids will come and go. Recruits will choose wisely and some not so wisely. I think, as painful as this is to say, that playing for Roy Williams would be a much wiser move for young Mr. Wall than playing for Coach Calipari. Coach Williams actually cares about his kids, I am not sure Cal does--Cal I think on a practical level only cares about Cal.

IF Wall goes to UNC (or even Kentucky for that matter) it will make the coaching staff further have to rethink what happens during recruiting that is turning a kid off to Duke. I hope they do this after each "miss." The answer might be nothing. They are doing everything right and the kids are being kids and making certain choices. Perhaps the academics are turning them off. Perhaps the style of play. Perhaps the perceived amount of time one gets--ie that Coach K does not play as many of his troops as say Coach Williams does (not trying to open up that can of worms, just saying that might turn a recruit off). Perhaps a kid decides he has more of a chance of showcasing his skills at one school than another.

Back to Wall to UNC. Coach Williams is preparing for a Final Four. I question how much time he would have to talk to a kid right now. I think the call would be rather short. I think he probably only said, "Hello, talk to you when I get back from Detroit." I think the kid should talk to everyone he can so when he hopefully comes to Duke no stone is left unturned. Since I never thought we would get Wall I am not really going to be surprised if he goes to UNC or Kentucky.

I like the idea of Wall getting out from under these "handlers" because to me they sound like they are up to no good. If he talks to everyone and decides that UNC is best for him it will make me sad, but it is not the end of the world. Next years team will be very, very good without Wall. We lived through not getting Livingston, Patterson, etc. Would we have been better? Yes, almost undoubtedly. Are there always going to be "just one more recruit" we wished we had in the tent? Yes, almost undoubtedly. Don't forget we got McBob and though I liked him a lot he really didn't do a lot to move the team forward. Perhaps we should remember the old adage of being careful of what we wish for.

GO DUKE!

[UrinalCake]

Perhaps we should remember the old adage of being careful of what we wish for.

That's a good point. A couple months ago when it didn't look like we had a shot at Wall, most people on this board were saying we didn't want him because of all of his "baggage," his handlers, him being a one-and-done player which could impose chemistry problems, etc. Now that we have a greater (perceived) chance of landing him, those thoughts are swept under the rug under the prospect of winning a national title. Maybe it's meant to be or maybe it's not. Let's root for the guys who do come here and not take for granted who we already have.

[JG Nothing]

Perhaps we should remember the old adage of being careful of what we wish for.


Absolutely. Winning is not always everything (particularly in college basketball).

[JG Nothing]

That's a good point. A couple months ago when it didn't look like we had a shot at Wall, most people on this board were saying we didn't want him because of all of his "baggage," his handlers, him being a one-and-done player which could impose chemistry problems, etc. Now that we have a greater (perceived) chance of landing him, those thoughts are swept under the rug under the prospect of winning a national title. Maybe it's meant to be or maybe it's not. Let's root for the guys who do come here and not take for granted who we already have.

It's amazing how all those concerns have seemingly disappeared. I suspect, however, that they will magically reappear if Wall signs with carolina.

[JG Nothing]

One more thing, is a thread with 900+ postings really necessary? Does every single thing about Wall have to be thrown into one ridiculously long thread that is hard to navigate and follow?

[sandinmyshoes]

The buzz I hear from UNC types is that Wall (or his "camp") contacted the UNC "camp". Then Williams called him back and said they were interested but they would have to wait until the Final Four was over and check on their scholarship situation and early entries to the draft.

I don't think they passed this to me just to rag me, as they know I'm kind of luke warm on Wall and the whole WoG deal. But, then, I don't want him at UNC. :mad:

This is why I try not to let my interest in recruiting get out of hand.

[jv001]

The buzz I hear from UNC types is that Wall (or his "camp") contacted the UNC "camp". Then Williams called him back and said they were interested but they would have to wait until the Final Four was over and check on their scholarship situation and early entries to the draft.

I don't think they passed this to me just to rag me, as they know I'm kind of luke warm on Wall and the whole WoG deal. But, then, I don't want him at UNC. :mad:

This is why I try not to let my interest in recruiting get out of hand.

Trying to figure out what 17-18 year old young men are thinking will drive you nuts if you let it. Do we get Wall or we don't. The Son will come up in the morning. Go Duke!

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

It's amazing how all those concerns have seemingly disappeared. I suspect, however, that they will magically reappear if Wall signs with carolina.

We've certainly seen the reverse of that (i.e. UNC fans killing K for recruiting Wall and then hastily backing off after this news) at the Scout (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=167&f=1386&t=4178243)boards. Now let's see if the N&O runs a hatchet job on Roy as well...

[DBFAN]

I think it is hard to come down on people who are just writing their concerns over the other shade of Blue getting another recruit right from under our nose. It is very likely that if we do not get Wall, and UNC does that next year will be exactly the same as this year, and the previous 5 or 6. The reality is that the PG situation has been a problem since Duhon graduated. Dockery and Ewing did their best, but they were not true PG, which is why we could not get JJ back to the Final Four. To say that people are upset because we are having a hart time getting Wall, undermines the problem that has been going on for several years now. If we do not get Wall, who is to say that Bledsoe will want to come here now. This whole situation stinks, regardless of what Wall does. Right now I just feel like he is stringing people along. Unfortunately I think 17-18-19 year olds are most impressed by the last thing they see. If UNC is the last one he visits that may be where he lands.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I do my best to not let a bunch of 17-22 year old kids determine my happiness. I am not always as successful about this as I would like. However, if I am going to start letting the recruiting of a 17-18 year old kid and where he might end up influence my happiness I sincerely say it might be time to step away from the whole thing.

I have no control over who wins or loses or who comes or who stays. I just root my heart out for the team that takes the floor. I am excited for next season with or without Wall, G, or whomever else. I bet coach K could get a bunch of ballboys and a blue chipper or two on the court and cause major havoc in the ACC.

GO DUKE!

[cbnaylor]

LOL.....yeah I like your thinking. So many Carolina fans have been running their mouths about how Coach K and Duke had to go so low in regards to trying to get Wall.......I'm sure things will be different now......just like always. When Duke won the ACC Championship, UNC fans said that they rather win the regular season.....if Duke was to win the regular season and UNC won the Championship, they would say they rather would win the Tourney.....same old story song and dance.

[Truth]

We have to remember unc has that basket weaving class he could take. Go Duke!

We have to be careful with this joke now. At the McDonald's AA game, it was announced that one of Mason's favorite hobbies is... yes, basket-weaving.

[Truth]

Trying to figure out what 17-18 year old young men are thinking will drive you nuts if you let it. Do we get Wall or we don't. The Son will come up in the morning. Go Duke!

The capitalized homophone is begging for a move to the PPB!

[G man]

So i was reading a interview he had with some Kentucky radio station. He said that he was going to make his desicion by April 19 so everyone relax. I hope that talks die down with Carolina, but we wont know jack until then so we should all just chill. Probably focus more on Bledsoe

[BlueintheFace]

I found a great video portrayal of John Wall's recruitment process and the lengths to which the different schools in contention are willing to go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_CSrsALUek&feature=related

[soccerstud2210]

So i was reading a interview he had with some Kentucky radio station. He said that he was going to make his desicion by April 19 so everyone relax. I hope that talks die down with Carolina, but we wont know jack until then so we should all just chill. Probably focus more on Bledsoe

its would be great to get wall. probably not. but bledsoe is pretty darn good. well at least vids i have seen of him. we'll be just fine imo

[6th Man]

I have determined I am tired of reading about him. Whether we get him or not, at least we know K is willing to take a likely 1 and done. Unfortunately, I believe in this day and age in order to compete for NCAA titles you will have to be willing to take a shot on that kind of player. You may not have to have one to win it all, but it sure helps to have that kind of talent. Duke basketball is bigger than John Wall, and although it would be great to have him, we'll live to see another day and likely get the next John Wall down the road if this doesn't work out.

[pfrduke]

I have determined I am tired of reading about him. Whether we get him or not, at least we know K is willing to take a likely 1 and done. Unfortunately, I believe in this day and age in order to compete for NCAA titles you will have to be willing to take a shot on that kind of player. You may not have to have one to win it all, but it sure helps to have that kind of talent. Duke basketball is bigger than John Wall, and although it would be great to have him, we'll live to see another day and likely get the next John Wall down the road if this doesn't work out.

Interesting that Delvon Roe may be the closest thing to a one-and-done player in this year's final four. I know there's a little noise about Ed Davis and the draft, but he wasn't a one-and-done player during the recruiting process. Instead, the four teams in the final four are comprised of (for the most part) really, really good juniors and seniors (and some sophs). Suggests that you don't need one-and-done to compete for NCAA titles.

[MrBisonDevil]

I believe Coach K only recruits kids that will be good Duke University Representatives. If Coach K believes John Wall will positively represent Duke University (not only the Duke basketball program), then GET HIM! I support Coach 100%.

Brand was at Duke 2yrs. He is a good Duke University representative. I'm sure other kids (missed prospects) like Dwight Howard & Greg Monroe would have been good representatives even if they stayed 1 or 2 years.

I contribute to Duke. I will continue to contribute to the Iron Dukes as long as we keep bringing in high character kids. If Duke ever shifts to a mercenary basketball program (which I highly doubt) then that is when I'll shift my contributions elsewhere. I’m sure the majority of contributors will cosign.

Note: I'm a Coach K fan boy. I don't doubt his judgment. Duke is pursuing John Wall for a reason and I doubt it is 100% focused on basketball.

That’s all I have to say.

[cato]

Whether we get him or not, at least we know K is willing to take a likely 1 and done.

Where did all this hand wringing about whether Coach K would recruit a likely one-and-done player come from? Just consider these players who committed to Duke in the past few years: Livingston, Deng, Humphries, Shav and McRoberts. All were possible one-and-done (or less). K recruited them, offered them a scholarship and they accepted.

Why is this even a question?

[_Gary]

With these latest developments I can only say, in my best John McEnroe voice, "Look, you cannot be serious man. You cannot be serious!!!" :eek:

[sandinmyshoes]

This thread has become very hard to follow. So I apologize if this link has already been posted.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/prepsnow/wall-hears-from-unc


This part :eek: "I have no desire to talk to, to be involved with, to visit, to contemplate in any shape, form or fashion John Wall going to play for Roy Williams. Zero," said Clifton, who runs the D-One sports program and has been advising the Raleigh Word of God senior but has insisted that the decision ultimately is Wall's to make."

Wow.

[TigerDevil]

This thread has become very hard to follow. So I apologize if this link has already been posted.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/prepsnow/wall-hears-from-unc


This part :eek: "I have no desire to talk to, to be involved with, to visit, to contemplate in any shape, form or fashion John Wall going to play for Roy Williams. Zero," said Clifton, who runs the D-One sports program and has been advising the Raleigh Word of God senior but has insisted that the decision ultimately is Wall's to make."

Wow.

Just fantastic to hear, really.

[miramar]

We should have our handlers call his handlers...

[BD80]

We've certainly seen the reverse of that (i.e. UNC fans killing K for recruiting Wall and then hastily backing off after this news) at the Scout (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=167&f=1386&t=4178243)boards. Now let's see if the N&O runs a hatchet job on Roy as well...

What does this say about UK's efforts to sign Wall? If they "lead", why is he looking elsewhere? My concern is that he wants to stay close to home, but he is afraid of the academic effort required at Duke - even if it is just for a year or two. While he was with Coach K, it sounded great, but once he got outside he starting thinking what a change that would be. All Coach K has to do is convince John that his reputation as a "Duke" guy will be worth the extra academic effort - not to mention the advantage the education will bring.


We have to be careful with this joke now. At the McDonald's AA game, it was announced that one of Mason's favorite hobbies is... yes, basket-weaving.

I have a certificate in basketweaving. Of course it is underwater basketweaving, a great way to work on buoyancy control. I don't sky the way I used to, but I can still ... Divers do it deeper :D


The capitalized homophone is begging for a move to the PPB!

Homophonia is wrong no matter which forum we use :rolleyes:

[Kewlswim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth View Post
The capitalized homophone is begging for a move to the PPB!
Homophonia is wrong no matter which forum we use

[BD80]

Quote:
What is a homophone?

To some it is:


one of two or more words pronounced alike but different in meaning or derivation or spelling (as the words to, too, and two) MW online


To others it is fertile ground for a poor joke.

Sorry.

[Greg_Newton]

Where did all this hand wringing about whether Coach K would recruit a likely one-and-done player come from?

I've been wondering this too. Was Coach K ever actually quoted as saying anything to this effect? All I remember hearing post-Deng/Livingston were "rumors" or "whispers" about how Coach K was supposedly done with one-and-dones, but no actual quotes or evidence.

The Wall situation is pretty simple to me. Without Wall, we're probably as good or better in 2009-2010 than we were this year, depending on how certain players develop over the summer and whether we have G. Then in 2010-2011, it's a whole new game, and hopefully our young talent is good enough to begin a new chapter of dominant teams for us. We could be a perennial ACC power and national title contender for the next five years, or we could just be a perennial 2nd-4th place in the ACC, Sweet 16 team... who really knows. It wouldn't be a 1998-2001 type of stretch, but it would still be a position any program should be happy enough to be in.

With Wall, we're an instant favorite for the title in 2009-2010. Especially if we have G, we become a superiorly talented team (a la 1998-2001) and likely make a deep tourney run. Wall is successful, is a top-5 pick, and re-establishes Duke as a top-NBA-talent-developer like Rose did for Memphis, which helps our recruiting HUGELY during the next few years. The returning players (including Seth Curry) have the swagger and experience that comes with making a deep tournament run on a great team, and our talented freshman class ensure that we are again a dominant team in 2011, and we are an undisputed top-5 team for the foreseeable future.

Things are shaping up quite well for Duke in the next few years... IMO Wall would just be the final piece to bridge things to our 2010 class and provide a "tipping point" for us going forward. I hope he comes.

But my goodness, let's not kid ourselves. Losing Wall in itself is not a back-breaker, but it would be absolutely heartbreaking if he went to UNC at this point. That was a very interesting article posted by sandinmyshoes - as much-maligned as Mr. Clifton has been by this board (perhaps rightfully so), he now has some absolutely glowing things to say about Coach K and some extremely negative things to say about Roy. Neat.

[mr. synellinden]

Son - sun. They are spelled differently but pronounced the same. Homophones are subsets of homonyms I believe. Although I think of homonyms as words that are spelled the same but have different meanings. As in duke the noun. Duke of earl. And duke the verb. Duke it out. I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. would be a homophone.

[pfrduke]

I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. would be a homophone.

I mean, you had to know that homophone was going to get nabbed by the filter here. ;):D

[sandinmyshoes]

So, now Wall says UNC is not recruiting him:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/prepsnow/wall-says-unc-is-not-recruiting-him

Although, I wonder why a Final Four coach would take the time to call a player if there was no interest? This seems to fit in what my UNC friends said about the contact being a kind of "let's see where we all stand after the Final Four and NBA early entries are clearer."

:confused:

[roywhite]

So, now Wall says UNC is not recruiting him:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/prepsnow/wall-says-unc-is-not-recruiting-him

Although, I wonder why a Final Four coach would take the time to call a player if there was no interest? This seems to fit in what my UNC friends said about the contact being a kind of "let's see where we all stand after the Final Four and NBA early entries are clearer."

:confused:

In our Wall-World drama, this is good news. Though I doubt 'ole Roy would call just to say hello without at least some idea of recruiting Wall, it appears that UNC is a somewhat unlikely suitor.

I like our chances, but who knows.

[G man]

So, now Wall says UNC is not recruiting him:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/prepsnow/wall-says-unc-is-not-recruiting-him

Although, I wonder why a Final Four coach would take the time to call a player if there was no interest? This seems to fit in what my UNC friends said about the contact being a kind of "let's see where we all stand after the Final Four and NBA early entries are clearer."

:confused:

I am happy about that little article thanks for posting it. I am not sure about old roy he is kind of shady. At least that is one less school to worry about!

[watzone]

I talked with Wall tonight and here is the short version - Roy called him, nothing was said about recruiting, but it may happen. The message boards blew up today, so I wanted to get some facts.

[BlueintheFace]

~60 posts away from DBR's first ever 1,000 post thread (all over a recruit who only recently got a scholarship offer). This would have been impossible a few years ago (nostalgic sigh).

[geraldsneighbor]

~60 posts away from DBR's first ever 1,000 post thread (all over a recruit who only recently got a scholarship offer). This would have been impossible a few years ago (nostalgic sigh).

I was rather impressed the other other day hitting the 100,000 view mark. That was kinda cool.

[MChambers]

I have a certificate in basketweaving. Of course it is underwater basketweaving, a great way to work on buoyancy control. I don't sky the way I used to, but I can still ... Divers do it deeper :D


If it wasn't your major, you can still post here, and I think that is the difference between Mason and the average UNC grad! ;)

[MChambers]

So, now Wall says UNC is not recruiting him:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/prepsnow/wall-says-unc-is-not-recruiting-him

Although, I wonder why a Final Four coach would take the time to call a player if there was no interest? This seems to fit in what my UNC friends said about the contact being a kind of "let's see where we all stand after the Final Four and NBA early entries are clearer."

:confused:

Roy was asking him if he wanted to go to casinos with Tywon. Sorry, but it's late, and I have to think this is all blown way out of proportion.

[captmojo]

I talked with Wall tonight and here is the short version - Roy called him, nothing was said about recruiting, but it may happen. The message boards blew up today, so I wanted to get some facts.

Thanks for the injection of sanity and your insight on the inside.

[DukiesPA]

why would Roy call him if it didn't have anything to do with recruiting?

[Dukebasketball32]

Wall sounds like he is changing his mind left and right. Every time i get on line he has a new school hes talkin to and seems to be favoring. Memphis, UK, Baylor, UNC, Duke...it keeps changing over and over. I want us to get him badly and would be so ticked if he went to the carolina blue but i just want this race to end soon so we know what we r getting or not getting and can pursue bledsoe before its too late.

[Kewlswim]

why would Roy call him if it didn't have anything to do with recruiting?

Hi,

I wonder if Ole Roy is already counting his chickens? Mr. Lawson seems to be. I feel an upset or is that I hope for an upset? I can't tell.

SWISH!

GO DUKE!

[rotogod00]

I talked with Wall tonight and here is the short version - Roy called him, nothing was said about recruiting, but it may happen. The message boards blew up today, so I wanted to get some facts.

Can you tell us if he's still planning on making a decision by the Jordan game?

[Lord Ash]

why would Roy call him if it didn't have anything to do with recruiting?

Perhaps to offer him a Coke?

[G man]

Can you tell us if he's still planning on making a decision by the Jordan game?

I posted earlier that he said he would make a desicion by april 18th I think!

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Just curious if Wall is considered a better prospect than Livingston was?

GO DUKE!

[Edouble]

why would Roy call him if it didn't have anything to do with recruiting?

Actually, all Wall said in the blog was "North Carolina is not recruiting me right now." Clearly, Ol' Roy was putting in a recruiting call for Kansas.

[geraldsneighbor]

Actually, all Wall said in the blog was "North Carolina is not recruiting me right now." Clearly, Ol' Roy was putting in a recruiting call for Kansas.

Why does this sound like the same thing when in High School you worried your girl was talking to another guy? It is the exact same feeling I have. Creepy I know.

[Rogue]

Reading all these post has me baffled..
so many questions.

Can John Wall walk on water ?
Who ARE REALLY the schools on his short list ?
Is unc-ch recruiting him or not ?

[whereinthehellami]

I don't get all the posts on a recruiting thread telling people to relax and not worry about 17-18 year olds. I'm not worried, I'm still jonsing for basketball and Duke is done for this year. So its natural and fun to look ahead. Wall and the PG situation are fun to follow in a I like to watch reality shows kind of way. A waste of time but whats wrong with some mental pocorn every now and then. So back to the soap opera of Duke and the PG.

[BD80]

why would Roy call him if it didn't have anything to do with recruiting?

To try to convince him NOT to go to Duke!

Roy does not like thinking how the shoe would look on the other foot.


Frankly, I think this young man is worth a thousand posts, even though there was a minor thread hi-jack that inflated the count. Yes, that means I read all 1,000 posts :( I figure it is worth it as long as Watzone chimes in every 30-50 posts :D

[sandinmyshoes]

I have to admit that reading this article makes me think it might not be such a bad thing for Roy Williams if Clifton doesn't like him. This whole thing is like taking a tour of a sausage factory.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/10924214

[dubayuw]

I talked with Wall tonight and here is the short version - Roy called him, nothing was said about recruiting, but it may happen. The message boards blew up today, so I wanted to get some facts.

Thanks for the info. It seems strange to me that a coach would call a player and have no intent of recruiting him. Maybe he was telling him to NOT go to Duke.:rolleyes:

[wilson]

I don't get all the posts on a recruiting thread telling people to relax and not worry about 17-18 year olds. I'm not worried, I'm still jonsing for basketball and Duke is done for this year. So its natural and fun to look ahead. Wall and the PG situation are fun to follow in a I like to watch reality shows kind of way. A waste of time but whats wrong with some mental pocorn every now and then. So back to the soap opera of Duke and the PG.

I tend to generally agree with you. While the extent of this discussion is a bit excessive, so is the entire cottage industry of recruiting coverage, in my opinion, and this is by no means the first such conversation on these boards.
Moreover, I fail to see how obsessing over the hypothetical decisions of 17 and 18 year-olds is drastically different from obsessing over the on-court exploits of 18-22 year-olds.
In one way or another (and for some of us, in more than one way...), every last one of us is at least a little bit nuts.

[blueduke59]

If he didn't intend on recruiting him he wouldn't have called him. I'm sure he didn't call the time and temp in Chapel Hill and mistakenly called the wrong number. You don't just out of the blue call the number one PG prospect just to see how he's doing. Especially after Clifton spewed bile in the direction of Chapel Hill in the papers

[rotogod00]

I posted earlier that he said he would make a desicion by april 18th I think!

But that was before the whole UNC thing. It'd probably be an ominous sign if he pushed back that date.

[BlueinBlo]

I don't think UNC is even thinking about recruiting him. Dexter Strickland is already committed to them and he is the 3rd rated PG on rivals.com. They would probably lose him if Wall went there.

[jv001]

To try to convince him NOT to go to Duke!

Roy does not like thinking how the shoe would look on the other foot.


Frankly, I think this young man is worth a thousand posts, even though there was a minor thread hi-jack that inflated the count. Yes, that means I read all 1,000 posts :( I figure it is worth it as long as Watzone chimes in every 30-50 posts :D
Who knows what's going through ole roys mind? Maybe he needs a Kansas sweatshirt.
Yes Watzone is in the superstar category with the likes of: Jumbo, Ozzie, Jim Sumner. Go Duke!

[Icarus09]

I don't think UNC is even thinking about recruiting him. Dexter Strickland is already committed to them and he is the 3rd rated PG on rivals.com. They would probably lose him if Wall went there.

If there is an interest in UNC, it doesn't make that much sense. For one, they have Dexter Strickland. For another, UNC already has Larry Drew at point ready to replace Lawson. While Drew might not be putting up big numbers, he's also playing less than 10 minutes a game right now. By the time Wall could come to UNC, Drew would have an extra summer under his belt with the weight room and the like. Why go to a school where there is going to be competition from day 1? If he is considering UNC, he must be confident that he'll get a lot of playing time. And, I think Williams contacting Wall at least partially undermines his faith in Strickland and Drew as a backcourt force.

[chrisheery]

Carolina is potentially losing its entire backcourt (Lawson, Green, and Ellington) this year. I think they could find room (starting together) for the number 1 and number 3 PG, both of whom are larger than many PGs and are both great finishers at the rim. Drew was never supposed to be a stud and doesn't look like he ever will be. The intent seems clear. Coaches don't call to just "say hi" to a guy they are not recruiting. He put that seed in his mind for after the tournament ends. If Lawson and Ellington leave, Roy will push hard, I bet.

That said, this "handler" situation everyone now refers to may come back to work in our favor.

[sandinmyshoes]

Everything I've heard about Strickland suggests that while he's a combo guard, he isn't considered an elite point guard by any stretch of the imagination. So I'm afraid that a possible one and done elite point guard would appeal to Williams. He basically has only one point guard on his roster. It has to be in the back of his mind what could happen if Drew was injured, or on a game by game basis was in foul trouble.

So I think UNC has real "interest" in testing the Wall scenario. Working against them is that his AAU coach loaths Williams, a possible scholarship crunch in the unlikely scenario of one of the NBA jumpers (almost certainly it would be Ellington) coming back, and perhaps concern on how Drew might react to feeling like he'd been recruited over.

So color me concerned, but not defeated. :cool:

[Icarus09]

Carolina is potentially losing its entire backcourt (Lawson, Green, and Ellington) this year. I think they could find room (starting together) for the number 1 and number 3 PG, both of whom are larger than many PGs and are both great finishers at the rim. Drew was never supposed to be a stud and doesn't look like he ever will be. The intent seems clear. Coaches don't call to just "say hi" to a guy they are not recruiting. He put that seed in his mind for after the tournament ends. If Lawson and Ellington leave, Roy will push hard, I bet.

That said, this "handler" situation everyone now refers to may come back to work in our favor.

While I agree with what you said, my comments were made about Carolina relative to Duke, which does not have any legitimate point (stud or not) as of now. I have no doubt that Roy would try hard to fill an offensive void but I hope that Wall would consider playing time at Carolina to be less than automatic compared to Duke.

[Icarus09]

While I'm guessing this wouldn't affect Wall's decision for offensive reasons, UNC's getting Ginyard back right?

[davekay1971]

I want to contribute to 1000 posts any way I can.

As an aside, I'm watching The Incredibles right now and thinking what a great point guard Dash Parr would make. He even looks a little like Wojo.

[chrisheery]

I want to contribute to 1000 posts any way I can.

As an aside, I'm watching The Incredibles right now and thinking what a great point guard Dash Parr would make. He even looks a little like Wojo.

Yeah, but can he control the ball moving that quickly. I remember Grant Hill telling me at basketball camp that he was by far the fastest guy on the court, but Bobby Hurley was by far the fastest with the ball. I worry about Dash's ability to move that quickly without turning it over.

Then again, you can't teach speed. Let's get on that. Roy won't be far behind.

[ice-9]

I'd love to see Mrs. Incredible play ball...scores could go up real quick with her full-court dunk!

I mean Dash would be fast...but like they say, you can't teach height. :)

[dukejunkie]

It seems from the quote below that there are rumors of Memphis hiring Baylor's Scott Drew. If that were to happen I'd assume Dwon Clifton would be part of the package. Would the combination of Memphis (better option than Baylor) and the relationship with Clifton trump all others? This thing is getting out of hand!

Here's the link to the article with the snippet pasted below it:

http://prepinsiders.blogspot.com/2009/04/highly-recruited-point-guard-hears-from.html

"There's been speculation that Memphis will turn to Baylor's Scott Drew to replace Calipari. Clifton's brother, Dwon, is on Drew's staff, but Brian Clifton said he had not heard anything from Drew indicating that he would leave Baylor."

[houstondukie]

If there is an interest in UNC, it doesn't make that much sense. For one, they have Dexter Strickland. For another, UNC already has Larry Drew at point ready to replace Lawson. While Drew might not be putting up big numbers, he's also playing less than 10 minutes a game right now. By the time Wall could come to UNC, Drew would have an extra summer under his belt with the weight room and the like. Why go to a school where there is going to be competition from day 1? If he is considering UNC, he must be confident that he'll get a lot of playing time. And, I think Williams contacting Wall at least partially undermines his faith in Strickland and Drew as a backcourt force.

Strickland is more of an undersized shooting guard who has point guard skills. Next year's Carolina team will most likely start Drew at point, and Strickland at the SG spot. Wall actually fits a need for Roy, because Drew is no where near Wall's level.

[gumbomoop]

In one way or another (and for some of us, in more than one way...), every last one of us is at least a little bit nuts.

True, and definitely including me. Hence the sanity-inducing usefulness of the thread on the recent Paulus article, not to mention the refreshing content of the article itself.

[Newton_14]

Round and round it goes.. The Scott Drew to Memphis is indeed interesting. That would likely get them back into the Wall sweepstakes. Now that ol roy is trying to get Wall, I really really hope Wall comes to Duke.

I am not so sure that it is a case of Roy wanting Wall, as it is that Roy does not want Duke to get him. Bomani Jones was bragging on his show this morning about how he talked to Clifton yesterday and based on the conversation, "Bomani's Gut" tells him it is now even between UK and UNC. But Bomani is the biggest Duke hater around who is trying to "wish" Wall to anywhere but Duke, so I do not put any stock in his comments.

Either way, since the Wall/K meeting last Sunday, the plot has thickened. If we should miss on Wall, I hope he goes to UK or Memphis.

But, if we do miss on Wall, I like our chances of getting Bledsoe if he gets it done on the ACT today, and after reading some of the articles posted this week, I feel much better about our chances of getting Brandon Knight in 2010.

And like others, I just had to get in on the push to 1000 posts!

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

Strickland is more of an undersized shooting guard who has point guard skills. Next year's Carolina team will most likely start Drew at point, and Strickland at the SG spot. Wall actually fits a need for Roy, because Drew is no where near Wall's level.

I think this is pretty easy to read...

1.Roy realizes Ty is almost definitely gone...

2.Larry Drew is FAR from a sure thing...Personally, as a Duke fan, I love when he comes on the floor, he looks like he might become the second coming of Quinton Thomas and not the second coming of Larry Drew...

3.Roy thinks there might be an opening for Wall to UNC with the whole Calipari to UK drama...

4.Strickland is more of a 2, who could possibly play the 1, whether he can do that for sure is unknown...

5.Roy made it clear he was "not recruiting" Wall, so as not to upset anybody (Larry Drew) a couple of days before the biggest game(s) of the year for UNC...

6.Wall coming in for one year, would give Drew another year to get ready to take over the point. As of today, Drew would be a big-time question mark as their starting point...

I think Roy is smart for sensing a possible opening here for the Holes...He is dipping his toe in the water to see if there is a possibility that he might go "into the pool" after the Final Four is done...

[Icarus09]

It seems from the quote below that there are rumors of Memphis hiring Baylor's Scott Drew. If that were to happen I'd assume Dwon Clifton would be part of the package. Would the combination of Memphis (better option than Baylor) and the relationship with Clifton trump all others? This thing is getting out of hand!

Here's the link to the article with the snippet pasted below it:

http://prepinsiders.blogspot.com/2009/04/highly-recruited-point-guard-hears-from.html

"There's been speculation that Memphis will turn to Baylor's Scott Drew to replace Calipari. Clifton's brother, Dwon, is on Drew's staff, but Brian Clifton said he had not heard anything from Drew indicating that he would leave Baylor."

To some degree, the recruiting situation depends upon how much influence Clifton has on Wall's recruiting. I thought in previous posts we were discussing a decline in Clifton's role. If he is still playing an influential role, we need to give credence to his good relationship with Coach K, his supposed poor one with Roy Williams, and the possibility of Memphis becoming more of a player should Scott Drew take the job if offered. If Clifton is not playing a significant role, than we should worry about our standing relative to Carolina's.

[chrisheery]

I am not so sure that it is a case of Roy wanting Wall, as it is that Roy does not want Duke to get him. Bomani Jones was bragging on his show this morning about how he talked to Clifton yesterday and based on the conversation, "Bomani's Gut" tells him it is now even between UK and UNC. But Bomani is the biggest Duke hater around who is trying to "wish" Wall to anywhere but Duke, so I do not put any stock in his comments.

Why would Clifton possibly say anything to that effect after he was so recently quoted saying he wanted Wall to have nothing to do with Roy Williams? This Bomani Jones character is highly questionable.

[BlueintheFace]

This Bomani Jones character is highly questionable.

There is an understatement if ever there was one

[Newton_14]

Why would Clifton possibly say anything to that effect after he was so recently quoted saying he wanted Wall to have nothing to do with Roy Williams? This Bomani Jones character is highly questionable.

I agree with you. Don't shoot the messenger. Just thought it had relevance to this thread, so I shared it. I did note that Bomani is a notorious Duke Hater....

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

Bomani Jones was bragging on his show this morning about how he talked to Clifton yesterday and based on the conversation, "Bomani's Gut" tells him it is now even between UK and UNC. But Bomani is the biggest Duke hater around who is trying to "wish" Wall to anywhere but Duke, so I do not put any stock in his comments.

A lot of things in this thread and logic in my head put fear in my heart that Wall might become a Hole...

Bomani Jones' gut is not one of them...

[Faison1]

I tend to not get too upset over recruiting misses, but if we miss on Wall, and he ends up at UNC, I might be a bit concerned about the whole situation.

On the other hand, recruiting is such luck. Think Hurley going to UNC to offer his services first. Or JWill wanting to go to UNC, but they recruited Brian Morrison instead. The stars may align here, and we end up with Wall for a year, and I'd be fine with one and done for the following reason:

The guys on this team deserve a legitimate shot at a championship. After next year, most of them are gone. The work they've put into restoring the program, not to mention the abuse they've received, is worth rolling the dice on a huge talent who could help get these guys to a Final Four.

Beyond the hearsay about his character, he seems and looks like a nice kid. If K likes him, then I like him.

Additionally, I've done my part towards 1000 posts.

[Mike Corey]

Bomani Jones.

All talk. Nothing else.

[_Gary]

The stars may align here, and we end up with Wall for a year, and I'd be fine with one and done for the following reason:

The guys on this team deserve a legitimate shot at a championship. After next year, most of them are gone. The work they've put into restoring the program, not to mention the abuse they've received, is worth rolling the dice on a huge talent who could help get these guys to a Final Four.

This is an important point that may possibly be being overlooked. I have nothing to go on with what I'm about to say other than my gut, but I have the distinct impression Coach K feels like the current group deserves a legit shot at the Final Four and he knows Wall would give them that shot. Like you say, even if the kid is here only one year it gives our current juniors & sophomores a real chance at a title and I'm confident Coach feels like this group really does deserve that. Not that he doesn't always want every team to have that chance, but this one is special and has gone through some tough times.

I really, really hope Wall comes to Duke. There are not words to describe the devastation I would feel if he went to UNC. That would be a blow that I just can't fathom at this point.

Closing in on 1000.

[geraldsneighbor]

This is an important point that may possibly be being overlooked. I have nothing to go on with what I'm about to say other than my gut, but I have the distinct impression Coach K feels like the current group deserves a legit shot at the Final Four and he knows Wall would give them that shot. Like you say, even if the kid is here only one year it gives our current juniors & sophomores a real chance at a title and I'm confident Coach feels like this group really does deserve that. Not that he doesn't always want every team to have that chance, but this one is special and has gone through some tough times.

I really, really hope Wall comes to Duke. There are not words to describe the devastation I would feel if he went to UNC. That would be a blow that I just can't fathom at this point.

Closing in on 1000.


Wall to UNC is about the worst possible thing that could happen to Duke. It is one thing for him to go play in the SEC or C-USA, but to go just 8 miles away would be a disgusting situation. I hope Wall really values what K meant in the talk comparing him to J-Will because K isn't one that blows smoke. If we get Wall as mentioned before it not only fills a gaping hole, but makes it a strength. I'm not calling the kid the second coming of Jesus, but what he could do for our team is huge.

Just a few thoughts in helping us hit 1 G.

[geraldsneighbor]

Bomani Jones.

All talk. Nothing else.

All that comes to mind with Bomani Jones is him saying ZERO ZERO ZERO ZERO every time he reads the phone number out.

[blueduke59]

It seems from the quote below that there are rumors of Memphis hiring Baylor's Scott Drew. If that were to happen I'd assume Dwon Clifton would be part of the package. Would the combination of Memphis (better option than Baylor) and the relationship with Clifton trump all others? This thing is getting out of hand!

Here's the link to the article with the snippet pasted below it:

http://prepinsiders.blogspot.com/2009/04/highly-recruited-point-guard-hears-from.html

"There's been speculation that Memphis will turn to Baylor's Scott Drew to replace Calipari. Clifton's brother, Dwon, is on Drew's staff, but Brian Clifton said he had not heard anything from Drew indicating that he would leave Baylor."

Sources say Drew isn't interested in the Memphis job:

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/9417430/Sources:-Baylor's-Drew-not-interested-in-Memphis-job

[loran16]

Xavier Henry to KU (which probably puts stephenson there as well).

Sooo, perhaps this'll convince Wall to not simply follow Calipari as well?

[rotogod00]

Xavier Henry to KU (which probably puts stephenson there as well).

Sooo, perhaps this'll convince Wall to not simply follow Calipari as well?

yeah, just read this:

Carl Henry, the father of top-ranked Xavier Henry, told the Lawrence Journal-World that his son wants to sign with Kansas as soon as he released from his letter of intent to Memphis.

"I believe what it comes down to is Xavier wants to go to KU," Carl, who played at Kansas in the early '80's, said on Friday.

Carl went on to say he expects the official release from Memphis to come on Monday.

"It should all be settled in the next two or three weeks," he said, while also noting he did not think Kentucky, where former Memphis coach John Calipari ended up, was a possibility for Xavier.

[Coballs]

Xavier Henry to KU (which probably puts stephenson there as well).



Where did you hear this? Haven't seen it confirmed anywhere.

[BlueinBlo]

Where did you hear this? Haven't seen it confirmed anywhere.
I seen it on the ESPN ticker but here is an article saying it is pretty much a done deal and they are appealing his brother so he doesn't have to sit out a year.
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/1123882.html

[BlueintheFace]

The Chronicle had a chat with JP Giglio regarding Duke recruiting and Wall

http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2009/04/04/im-not-comparing-him-to-the-guy-at-the-bar-at-last-call-a-qa-with-the-nos-jp-giglio/

I think his argument that K actively avoided one-and-done players for a short period of time is questionable.

[mo.st.dukie]

It's not helping that UNC, with one of the fastest PG's in the game right now, is playing for a national championship. It would make me absolutely sick if Wall went to UNC.

[BlueintheFace]

Here's a question. If Gerald declared and got an agent today, would anybody's opinion about getting John Wall change?

[Coballs]

The Chronicle had a chat with JP Giglio regarding Duke recruiting and Wall

http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2009/04/04/im-not-comparing-him-to-the-guy-at-the-bar-at-last-call-a-qa-with-the-nos-jp-giglio/

I think his argument that K actively avoided one-and-done players for a short period of time is questionable.

I don't understand why the Chronicle had to interview this guy based on his biased, uninformed, speculative blog? His premise is presumptious and has no factual basis. I hope all discussion regarding Giglio's blog ends here. I'm done with it. Now let's go get John Wall....and Brandon Knight.

[DBFAN]

I just do not think there is anyway that we will land Wall now, with UNC going after a championship, a Duke team that can not get past the Sweet 16. With Henderson's' status not looking to well, why would he want to come here? I think we may be looking at the same type of Duke teams for the next 5 or 6 years. There is nothing on earth that is going to stop Roy's ability to recruit. We have a coach with three Championships, and a Gold medal, and we still can not get the top players that we need. What frustrates me the most is that we seem to get better each year, but never as good as our Rival down the road. IF wall goes there it will be the same way. I wish there was some remedy to fix all of this. I just want to be able to compete with them again, I just hope that Duke does not fade off into oblivion over the next 10 years, something like what happened to St. Johns, but with so much venom being directed our way from the media, how are we ever suppose to land the top kids. If you were 18 and you knew that you were going to ridiculed and harassed by the media, and other teams fans, would you really want to go here? This is one of the worst days for me as a Duke fan, and now more than likely we are going to have to listen to every person in NC talk about how great their team is, Roy will have his 2nd and could possible have his third very very soon. Maybe MSU will play the games of their lives, but some reason teams always pull up lame against UNC after they just took down a big team:(

[Dukefan4Life]

Wow! this kid is sure bringing alot of hype! but who is to say he is the missing pice in are championship run? I agree if he lives up to all the hype he could take us far, but we are still a big man away from cutting down the nets! but with nothing really to lose id be happy if we land him

[eddiehaskell]

It's not helping that UNC, with one of the fastest PG's in the game right now, is playing for a national championship. It would make me absolutely sick if Wall went to UNC.Haha. Lets start this thing all over again.

Wall subs in for Lawson
Thompson is back
Zeller turns into a Hanbrough part deux
Ginyard's defense matches Ellington's offense

And then we can sprinkle in a little Henson, Strickland, McDonald and Wear twins....

:(

Hate 'em or love 'em, UNC coaches get to recruits like a savage pack of dogs. Even their "bad" coach brought in May, McCants, Felton, etc. Darn all these kids wanting to be like Mike.