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BD80
01-05-2009, 04:36 PM
... Memphis graduates some of their best players, ...

I love unintentional humor.

Memphis 2007

FedGradRate 25%
GradSuccessRate 36%
AcademicProgressRate 901 (<925=sanction)

Average NCAA mens bball grad rate 61%


In all fairness, it does seem that Calipari is making strides:


Much like he did at UMass when his players graduated at nearly 80 percent, Calipari is doing the same at Memphis. Fifteen of the last 18 seniors that have come through the Tiger program have earned their bachelor's degrees. All three 2008-09 seniors -- Antonio Anderson, Robert Dozier and Chance McGrady -- are on schedule to graduate, and junior Shawn Taggart could graduate following the 2009 spring semester. ...
Furthermore, Calipari ... is reaching out to former Tigers to come back to campus and finish their degrees. Andre Turner, ..."The Little General," ... Chris Garner and Cedric Henderson also ... received their degrees in 2008.
http://gotigersgo.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/calipari_john00.html

Tim1515
01-05-2009, 04:41 PM
I concede the Henry Point. But, if Evans stays, that is a lot of talented guards to satisfy.

As for NCSU, no. Just, no. They have no shot at Favors. None. He barely lists them. The only people who think they have a shot at him are delusional NCSU fans. He will go to UGA or GT. He will not go to State. State fans are clinging to this false hope becuase it is literally the only light on the horizon besides Wall. I think Costner leaves in this year's weak class, and even if he doesn't he has shown no capacity to coexist with other stars, and his effort is spotty.

Memphis is definitely an option, and perhaps our strongest comp. I just see Baylor fading down the stretch as Wall realizes that Baylor is basketball oblivion. Texas will be good next year with a great recruiting class comming in, and will be the clear No.1 in Texas. They will be a top 10 team next year, and will completely overshadow Baylor in media attention. Good players have gotten ignored in better situations than at Baylor next year.

I again disagree a little. While i think State's chances are slim to land either Wall or Favors...i have a feeling if they land 1...they'll land the other.

I also think Baylor is the clear leader. More for the fact that one of Wall's "handlers" got hired by them...but he also promised them his last visit.

One big thing that i think could help Duke is that the Clifton brothers basically serve the role of Wall's father. Trying to steer him in the right direction. If he decides Baylor isn't the right place for him (i still put their chances at 70%) it's hard to argue there is a better role model then K.

Devilhawks
01-05-2009, 04:42 PM
What makes you think that Wall (IF offered and IF he selects Duke) would replace Nolan as the primary ball handler? Why do you believe that a player not even offered by Duke would be, immediately, a superior player to Nolan after Nolan has (by that time) three years in the Duke system? Last year the "new savior crowd" said E. Williams was to become the prime back court player for Duke. You see how that worked out.

These types of assertions are either not thought through or are, to me, naive in their outlook.

I'm not sure Diddy was implying that Wall would be a "superior" player to Nolan. I think he was assuming Nolan would slide to the 2, perhaps better utilizing the combined skills of Nolan and Wall.

Carlos
01-05-2009, 04:47 PM
What makes you think that Wall (IF offered and IF he selects Duke) would replace Nolan as the primary ball handler? Why do you believe that a player not even offered by Duke would be, immediately, a superior player to Nolan after Nolan has (by that time) three years in the Duke system? Last year the "new savior crowd" said E. Williams was to become the prime back court player for Duke. You see how that worked out.

These types of assertions are either not thought through or are, to me, naive in their outlook.

Actually, Nolan would only have two years, not three, under this belt by the time Wall would be on campus.

I think it's just as poorly thought out or naive to dismiss the possibility that Wall would be the team's primary point guard, starting point guard, point guard at the end of the game, or whatever other label you want to put on him without having seen him play.

Sure, some folks may have been overly enthusiastic about Elliot Williams' potential this year, but that has no bearing on John Wall. I've seen a lot of HS point guards over the years and if Wall wasn't at the top of the list he's pretty close to it. The only other guy that stands out to me in the same realm is Jason Williams during his HS and AAU days. The difference between the two being that Williams was a better shooter but I'd give the nod to Wall in terms of distributing the ball.

Tim1515
01-05-2009, 04:49 PM
I know Wall's "potential" and current talents are hard to argue...but at the same time I think his faults are currently too glaring to assume he'd start.

I said this earlier in this thread and it still holds true. Wall's high school team is barely above .500. How many teams in the country do you think have D1 talent...let alone 2 D1 players...one of which being a top 10 ranked player and are playing .500 ball?

Wall is a streaky shooter at best...he is loose with the ball and unstructured.

He does have un-coachable talented that project him to be an amazing player...but he's not there yet and to assume he will be a better PG for Duke next year then Nolan is crazy IMO.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-05-2009, 05:31 PM
As always, what Carlos said.

I am curious about the Wall/Nolan "debate" that keeps popping up. Many, many folks here have made it clear that Wall and Nolan playing together would make an outstanding backcourt. And with the semi-recent example of JWill/Duhon I would think that option would leap to the mind of any Duke fan very quickly. Why do folks keep posting angry "defenses" of Nolan, as if Wall was projected to push him out of the starting lineup and, based on the tenor of some remarks, completely off the depth chart?

What I'm asking is, do folks not like the idea of a Wall/Nolan backcourt? Why not? I can imagine an argument based on Nolan's ego/prep for the NBA (but see JWill sharing the PG duties and still being drafted pretty high). I guess I can imagine an argument that we need Z at the C position, but even if everyone comes back (and I'm not at all expecting that to happen) a Jr. Singler should be more than capable of holding down the C position most nights.

People seem really hostile to Wall in a way that makes no sense to me. He really looks to be a unique talent and he fills a MAJOR hole on next year's team. If his head is in the right place (and if he and K agree he should be here then it will be) what's not to love about the #1 overall player and best PG joining this team? I don't get it. :(

Tim1515
01-05-2009, 05:47 PM
As always, what Carlos said.

I am curious about the Wall/Nolan "debate" that keeps popping up. Many, many folks here have made it clear that Wall and Nolan playing together would make an outstanding backcourt. And with the semi-recent example of JWill/Duhon I would think that option would leap to the mind of any Duke fan very quickly. Why do folks keep posting angry "defenses" of Nolan, as if Wall was projected to push him out of the starting lineup and, based on the tenor of some remarks, completely off the depth chart?

What I'm asking is, do folks not like the idea of a Wall/Nolan backcourt? Why not? I can imagine an argument based on Nolan's ego/prep for the NBA (but see JWill sharing the PG duties and still being drafted pretty high). I guess I can imagine an argument that we need Z at the C position, but even if everyone comes back (and I'm not at all expecting that to happen) a Jr. Singler should be more than capable of holding down the C position most nights.

People seem really hostile to Wall in a way that makes no sense to me. He really looks to be a unique talent and he fills a MAJOR hole on next year's team. If his head is in the right place (and if he and K agree he should be here then it will be) what's not to love about the #1 overall player and best PG joining this team? I don't get it. :(

Well i think the first argument is what happens if Hendo stays? Who do you knock out of the starting lineup for Wall?

Second...Wall hasn't proven anything at the college level yet. Yes there is a ton of athletic ability there (same with Elliot) but what keeps Elliot out of the lineup at Duke?

Wall is and will be unstructured coming to Duke...that might not matter at 90% of programs in America...it matters at Duke. Wall is a streaky shooter...he's prone to make bad turnovers (also a no-no at Duke). And his high school team is barely a .500 team.

I haven't heard anyone say they don't want Wall if he has a good head on his shoulders...but Wall is not Derrick Rose...his game is very wild right now.

AtlDuke72
01-05-2009, 06:25 PM
As always, what Carlos said.

People seem really hostile to Wall in a way that makes no sense to me. He really looks to be a unique talent and he fills a MAJOR hole on next year's team. If his head is in the right place (and if he and K agree he should be here then it will be) what's not to love about the #1 overall player and best PG joining this team? I don't get it. :(


I agree with you except I don't think there will be a major hole on the team if he does not come. Coach K plays two front court and three back court players. 3 x 40 is 120 minutes a game. Scheyer, Smith, Henderson and Wall could all play 30 minutes a game. The question to me is not whether Smith would sit because he will definitely play. The issue is with Williams and Pocius. Somehow I think Coach K can figure it out if he thinks Wall would fit in. Add in Singler, Zoubek, Thomas , Kelly and the Plumlees up front. We could be as good as the Carolina people think they are this year.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-05-2009, 06:35 PM
Well i think the first argument is what happens if Hendo stays? Who do you knock out of the starting lineup for Wall?

Obviously it could change based on matchups, but by the end of the season I think our best lineup would be:

PG Wall
SG Nolan
SF Jon
PF G
C Kyle

We'd have 3 legit ballhandlers, blazing speed in the backcourt, strength and speed in the post, and Wall would be the worst shooter in that lineup. If we were facing a really large team Z may move in and we could spend large chunks of the game resting/protecting Wall/Nolan if fouls/injury/etc. become an issue.


Second...Wall hasn't proven anything at the college level yet. Yes there is a ton of athletic ability there (same with Elliot) but what keeps Elliot out of the lineup at Duke?

I'm very high on Email, but he was the #4 SG in his class. Wall is the #1 overall player at the most important position on the court. EMail is behind several major studs including Jon and G. At worst, Wall will be behind one guy (Nolan).


Wall is and will be unstructured coming to Duke...that might not matter at 90% of programs in America...it matters at Duke. Wall is a streaky shooter...he's prone to make bad turnovers (also a no-no at Duke). And his high school team is barely a .500 team.

Carlos has already broken down the team record issue. Suffice to say that those losses came a) when Wall was out or b) against top 5 teams. That issue is, IMO, a red herring.

I guess we'll have to wait and see if his game is too "unstructured" for Duke. I'm sure he'll have growing pains just like JWill and CDu did. The fact is, we are dangerously empty at the PG spot next season. We have one SG with a bad back that we're trying to convert and one SG/SF who can slide over in a tight spot. That's it. If Wall were just a solid (4 star) pure PG there would be 10+ minutes for him based on our need. From what I've read/seen Wall is really, really special. I'm sure he will make some mistakes, but he already has the physical tools and, more to the point (ha-ha) the PG skills to be a major factor wherever he ends up.

BlueintheFace
01-06-2009, 02:30 AM
Obviously it could change based on matchups, but by the end of the season I think our best lineup would be:

PG Wall
SG Nolan
SF Jon
PF G
C Kyle


... Kyle at C... somebody else take this one. I am getting tired of explaining it to people

Diddy
01-06-2009, 02:37 AM
I love unintentional humor.

Memphis 2007

FedGradRate 25%
GradSuccessRate 36%
AcademicProgressRate 901 (<925=sanction)

Average NCAA mens bball grad rate 61%


In all fairness, it does seem that Calipari is making strides:


http://gotigersgo.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/calipari_john00.html

I say graduate because exhausted eligibility is just so cumbersome. And I do so strive for brevity in all my communications.

Diddy
01-06-2009, 02:54 AM
Well i think the first argument is what happens if Hendo stays? Who do you knock out of the starting lineup for Wall?

Second...Wall hasn't proven anything at the college level yet. Yes there is a ton of athletic ability there (same with Elliot) but what keeps Elliot out of the lineup at Duke?

Wall is and will be unstructured coming to Duke...that might not matter at 90% of programs in America...it matters at Duke. Wall is a streaky shooter...he's prone to make bad turnovers (also a no-no at Duke). And his high school team is barely a .500 team.

I haven't heard anyone say they don't want Wall if he has a good head on his shoulders...but Wall is not Derrick Rose...his game is very wild right now.


You make an excellant, albeit moot, point. Since Wall is waiting until the end of the year to decide, if G comes back, Wall won't come to Duke. Too much comp for minutes, simple as that. There would be better situations for him at one of his other schools.

However, IM(not so)HO, if G et all stays, and Wall were to magically pick Duke anyway, Wall doesn't start. We have too many options in the post to chain Kyle to the 5 on D. He is too dangerous at the 4, and whatever gains we would make by having an opposing big chase Hendo would be negated by said Big posting Hendo down low.

Nolan would start for one simple reason. Right now, for the first time in a few years, the Duke D is a spear. And Nolan is the tip of that Spear. He is a ball hawk at the 1, and that is irreplacable. Wall has two knocks. One, is shooting. The other is D. K would get him up to speed, but even if G leaves and Wall starts, at 6-4 he could guard opposing 2s or 3s while Nolan locks down the 1. Given K's love for D, and Nolan increasing competance on O, Nolan would start over Wall (should G return) for his value on D.

As for his choices, I just don't see Baylor getting him. If that were the case, he would've committed in the early period. When the Clifton hiring was announced, every recruiting site said that Wall's commitment to Baylor was both forgone and imminent. All of a sudden that talk stopped. I mean, Baylor. What kind of top B-Ball recruit goes there. Baylor fans would skip a televised NCAA tourney game if it conflicted with spring football That is not a situation for a star hoopster. Memphis, NCSU, and Duke are B-ball schools. At those programs he is a God.

If it were Baylor, I just feel like it would have happened by now.

On a related note, I really enjoy how just about every recruiting site seems to be steering him away from Duke. I can just imagine their horror if Duke got a key cog for its O to feed the weapons we've got next year. I think a resurgant Duke (with Wall a heavy favorite for the FF and NC) strikes fear into the heart of recruitniks across the interweb.

slower
01-06-2009, 08:26 AM
... Kyle at C... somebody else take this one. I am getting tired of explaining it to people

Isn't one of the key points of this season that Kyle NOT have to play center? And now many people seem to be willing to throw that away in these projected lineups that make room for Wall. I just don't agree with this weak line of reasoning.

watzone
01-06-2009, 10:44 AM
You make an excellant, albeit moot, point. Since Wall is waiting until the end of the year to decide, if G comes back, Wall won't come to Duke. Too much comp for minutes, simple as that. There would be better situations for him at one of his other schools.

However, IM(not so)HO, if G et all stays, and Wall were to magically pick Duke anyway, Wall doesn't start. We have too many options in the post to chain Kyle to the 5 on D. He is too dangerous at the 4, and whatever gains we would make by having an opposing big chase Hendo would be negated by said Big posting Hendo down low.

Nolan would start for one simple reason. Right now, for the first time in a few years, the Duke D is a spear. And Nolan is the tip of that Spear. He is a ball hawk at the 1, and that is irreplacable. Wall has two knocks. One, is shooting. The other is D. K would get him up to speed, but even if G leaves and Wall starts, at 6-4 he could guard opposing 2s or 3s while Nolan locks down the 1. Given K's love for D, and Nolan increasing competance on O, Nolan would start over Wall (should G return) for his value on D.

As for his choices, I just don't see Baylor getting him. If that were the case, he would've committed in the early period. When the Clifton hiring was announced, every recruiting site said that Wall's commitment to Baylor was both forgone and imminent. All of a sudden that talk stopped. I mean, Baylor. What kind of top B-Ball recruit goes there. Baylor fans would skip a televised NCAA tourney game if it conflicted with spring football That is not a situation for a star hoopster. Memphis, NCSU, and Duke are B-ball schools. At those programs he is a God.

If it were Baylor, I just feel like it would have happened by now.

On a related note, I really enjoy how just about every recruiting site seems to be steering him away from Duke. I can just imagine their horror if Duke got a key cog for its O to feed the weapons we've got next year. I think a resurgant Duke (with Wall a heavy favorite for the FF and NC) strikes fear into the heart of recruitniks across the interweb.

I'm not sure what sites are steering him away from Duke, but can assure that some around him are. Wait a minute, there is one site that seems to be pushing him in the direction of the team just down the road;)

Having talked to Wall just last evening and three times in in seven days due to tournaments, I feel there is in no way a favorite and that the Baylor team you feel is out of it is still very much in it.

I will go ahead and say that IMO, it is still wide open, but if Wall had cast his lot towards Baylor just after the signing, what would that have said? There is always a possibility that Wall would get more exposure from not making his decision until May 21st the last day of the signing period.

Per Walls comments, I can make a case for Memphis, Baylor, N.C. State and Duke.

One thing the average observer (not you) doesn't realize are the many intangibles involved here. Anyhow, I am learning those things as I dig about for an upcoming article I have been asked to do for a national outlet.

Anyhow, I can devulge from my interviews that he enjoyed coming to Duke for the game and that the Blue Devils almost certainly in this until the end. And that end will be later rather than sooner;)

jv001
01-06-2009, 11:56 AM
I'm not sure what sites are steering him away from Duke, but can assure that some around him are. Wait a minute, there is one site that seems to be pushing him in the direction of the team just down the road;)

Having talked to Wall just last evening and three times in in seven days due to tournaments, I feel there is in no way a favorite and that the Baylor team you feel is out of it is still very much in it.

I will go ahead and say that IMO, it is still wide open, but if Wall had cast his lot towards Baylor just after the signing, what would that have said? There is always a possibility that Wall would get more exposure from not making his decision until May 21st the last day of the signing period.

Per Walls comments, I can make a case for Memphis, Baylor, N.C. State and Duke.

One thing the average observer (not you) doesn't realize are the many intangibles involved here. Anyhow, I am learning those things as I dig about for an upcoming article I have been asked to do for a national outlet.

Anyhow, I can devulge from my interviews that he enjoyed coming to Duke for the game and that the Blue Devils almost certainly in this until the end. And that end will be later rather than sooner;)

Now this is something I can hang my hat on. Not just aimless speculation about Wall's recruitment. I know that Mark has seen Wall play and would certainly tell us if there was a defiency in his point guard play and if there was a definite leader at this point in his recruitment. As for who would he replace in next years lineup? I don't know and I don't think anyone outside of The Lord that does. So I'm just going to wait and see if he comes to the very best University in the good old USA. Go Duke!

Kedsy
01-06-2009, 12:27 PM
Isn't one of the key points of this season that Kyle NOT have to play center? And now many people seem to be willing to throw that away in these projected lineups that make room for Wall. I just don't agree with this weak line of reasoning.

The point is there is really no difference between a guy who starts and plays 25 to 30 minutes and a guy who comes off the bench and plays 25 to 30 minutes. If the only way to land a recruit of Wall's caliber is to let him start, then Singler could start at center for 5 minutes before Thomas or Zoubek come into the game. Nobody's suggesting Kyle guard the other team's center for any significant length of time.

jv001
01-06-2009, 12:35 PM
The point is there is really no difference between a guy who starts and plays 25 to 30 minutes and a guy who comes off the bench and plays 25 to 30 minutes. If the only way to land a recruit of Wall's caliber is to let him start, then Singler could start at center for 5 minutes before Thomas or Zoubek come into the game. Nobody's suggesting Kyle guard the other team's center for any significant length of time.

Do you think Coach K is going to promise Wall a starting position b4 he steps foot on campus? If Walls ego is such that he needs a promise to be in the starting lineup, then maybe he's not the player some think him to be. Go Duke!

BD80
01-06-2009, 01:46 PM
...many intangibles involved here. Anyhow, I am learning those things as I dig about for an upcoming article I have been asked to do for a national outlet.

Anyhow, I can devulge from my interviews that he enjoyed coming to Duke for the game and that the Blue Devils almost certainly in this until the end. And that end will be later rather than sooner;)

Golly. If it is going to be a while, why are so many currently posting speculative starting line-ups and possible early departures? Inconceivable.

Thanks for the continued info Mark, this has been an interesting recruiting story. Troubled kid, turning things around, handler being hired by a school to get a commitment, and then popping up on the radar of one of the most prestigious universities on the planet. I'm looking forward to your story.

A recent interview with Duke players seems to indicate that Coach K is looking more for players to create offense rather than just relying upon offensive sets which an opposing team can tend study and prepare for. Wall appears to have the ballhandling skills and explosive quickness and athleticism to get into the lane, and he would definitely help in our "new" offensive system. Even if it is for just one year, to have such an explosive, penetrating guard would certainly be benefit. Nolan is developing into an offensive weapon, able to penetrate and disrupt defenses, but Wall seems to be on a different level. That level is what helps win national championships.

Kedsy
01-06-2009, 01:58 PM
Inconceivable.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Hancock 4 Duke
01-06-2009, 06:14 PM
Does anyone know if Wall is supposed to even come to Duke yet. I thought he considering other places?

jimsumner
01-06-2009, 06:53 PM
As a general rule Mike Krzyzewski has not been inclined to promise starting spots to high-school players.

SilkyJ
01-06-2009, 06:59 PM
As a general rule Mike Krzyzewski has not been inclined to promise starting spots to high-school players.

To expound on Jim's point a little, Coach K has been known to back off of players who either wanted or demanded a guarantee that they would start from day 1. Rumor had it that Kris Humphries' dad was attempting to negotiate PT with Krzyzewski so we released him from his LOI and similar rumors were floated around why we back off Kevin Love (though it may have been a more general attitude issue there...)

In general if someone is demanding a starting spot or needs that guarantee to convince them to matriculate, then they probably don't have the right attitude to fit in at Duke.

(note: I am not suggesting Wall is demanding or asking for this. I doubt that he is given our level of interest in him)

Devilsfan
01-06-2009, 09:40 PM
We backed off Kevin Love. Who went deeper into the tournament? Duke without Kevin or UCLA with Kevin? Getting past the first two games of the tournament might just be enough incentive to put up with a stupid, obnoxiuos father.

ice-9
01-06-2009, 09:43 PM
We backed off Kevin Love. Who went deeper into the tournament? Duke without Kevin or UCLA with Kevin? Getting past the first two games of the tournament might just be enough incentive to put up with a stupid, obnoxiuos father.

Nah.

I'd rather we lose the right way than win the wrong way. The insistence to do things the right way is what makes Duke, DUKE. GO DEVILS!

jv001
01-06-2009, 09:46 PM
We backed off Kevin Love. Who went deeper into the tournament? Duke without Kevin or UCLA with Kevin? Getting past the first two games of the tournament might just be enough incentive to put up with a stupid, obnoxiuos father.

I would not like to see Coach K recruit this type of player. It would be like selling your soul to the devil(not Blue Devils). Go Duke!

mgtr
01-06-2009, 09:56 PM
We backed off Kevin Love. Who went deeper into the tournament? Duke without Kevin or UCLA with Kevin? Getting past the first two games of the tournament might just be enough incentive to put up with a stupid, obnoxiuos father.

I am betting that most people on this board disagree with this approach. The Duke system does not suffer fools well, or even fathers who are fools. I think there is no value to recruiting a stupid, obnoxious kid, and very little value to recruiting a kid with a stupid, obnoxious father.

Newton_14
01-06-2009, 10:20 PM
I am betting that most people on this board disagree with this approach. The Duke system does not suffer fools well, or even fathers who are fools. I think there is no value to recruiting a stupid, obnoxious kid, and very little value to recruiting a kid with a stupid, obnoxious father.

Agreed! I would not want players like that either. Sure UCLA made the FF, but they lost and how much good is Kevin Love doing for them today? Zippo. I would much rather have kids willing to work and earn their PT.

SilkyJ
01-06-2009, 10:35 PM
We backed off Kevin Love. Who went deeper into the tournament? Duke without Kevin or UCLA with Kevin? Getting past the first two games of the tournament might just be enough incentive to put up with a stupid, obnoxiuos father.

see above. learn the duke way. luke, coach k is your father.

heyman25
01-06-2009, 11:10 PM
I would like Duke to take Wall.I am sure he is not being promised anything. Even if Gerald Henderson stayed, Duke could use a guard and Wall would be a great addition to the team.

slower
01-07-2009, 08:54 AM
The point is there is really no difference between a guy who starts and plays 25 to 30 minutes and a guy who comes off the bench and plays 25 to 30 minutes. If the only way to land a recruit of Wall's caliber is to let him start, then Singler could start at center for 5 minutes before Thomas or Zoubek come into the game. Nobody's suggesting Kyle guard the other team's center for any significant length of time.

So what are you saying? We start Wall, then after 5 minutes bring in Z or Lance and move Kyle back down to the 4? And THEN send Wall to the bench? Seriously, extend your argument and tell me where it goes from there.

And I thought the point of the original post to which I responded was that playing Kyle at the 5 was our best lineup (don't recall that it said anything about who started or finished there or who came off the bench when).

Hey, if it came down to a choice between keeping Kyle or getting Wall, that's an easy one in my book. Or do you think it wouldn't make any difference to Kyle if they told him that he'd be playing more time back at the 5 in order to get Wall? He might just decide that it wasn't worth staying at Duke.

I don't know. Maybe you guys are right. But give me Singler over Wall ANY time. I'm not saying it's an either/or proposition, just that it seems more logical to work things around Kyle's needs than Wall's.

davekay1971
01-07-2009, 09:09 AM
We backed off Kevin Love. Who went deeper into the tournament? Duke without Kevin or UCLA with Kevin? Getting past the first two games of the tournament might just be enough incentive to put up with a stupid, obnoxiuos father.

In college ball these days, instant impact one-and-done players can make a huge difference...Carmelo Anthony is the prime example of that, so there is no doubt that Duke could improve it's tournament performance by bending over to recruit guys who are here then gone. The implied suggestion is that we should consider changing our recruiting tactics to get those guys if we really feel they could be that difference maker.

Duke has had great success recruiting quality guys who we develop over time. While 2005-2008 didn't have the March results we'd all like, over the past 25 years, Duke is arguably the most successful program in college basketball doing it the way we've been doing it. I think this year we are seeing the benefits of players who buy into the team concept and grow together over the course of years. This Duke team has talent, chemistry, and experience.

Making deals and promises to get a hired gun like Wall for a year would probably increase the talent level. However, it would wreck the chemistry and experience levels. I don't think we'd be better off doing things that way. As evidence, I'd point to programs which do. They have a strong year now and again (Memphis last year), but rarely have sustained, consistent success (Memphis this year).

Just as importantly, Coach K's practice of bringing in kids who are quality kids and are reasonably likely to stay four years and graduate is more in line with Duke's reputation and class as a University than the practices of guys who pander to one-and-done talent like Huggins or Calipari.

yancem
01-07-2009, 09:13 AM
We backed off Kevin Love. Who went deeper into the tournament? Duke without Kevin or UCLA with Kevin? Getting past the first two games of the tournament might just be enough incentive to put up with a stupid, obnoxiuos father.

yeah, who needs to be bothered with things like principles? Besides, Love left after one season and will be barely remembered. I'd rather have Singler who may not have been as dominate as a freshman but is looking like a stud as a sophomore and has a good chance of sticking around for one more year. I like Duke's chances to get to a final four possibly this year or even better next year.

Which would you rather have: a stud recruit with a pane in the a#$ father for one season and a final four or a great kid for 3-4 years and possibly a final four or nc?

gvtucker
01-07-2009, 09:44 AM
I am betting that most people on this board disagree with this approach. The Duke system does not suffer fools well, or even fathers who are fools. I think there is no value to recruiting a stupid, obnoxious kid, and very little value to recruiting a kid with a stupid, obnoxious father.

Putting up with stupid, obnoxious fathers isn't an issue. And it is something Duke is known to have suffered when necessary.

But promising playing time ain't gonna happen.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-07-2009, 09:58 AM
Making deals and promises to get a hired gun like Wall for a year would probably increase the talent level. However, it would wreck the chemistry and experience levels. I don't think we'd be better off doing things that way. As evidence, I'd point to programs which do. They have a strong year now and again (Memphis last year), but rarely have sustained, consistent success (Memphis this year).

I don't think it's fair to include Wall in the "hired gun" group just yet. He may be a Kris Humphries guy who's only looking for an NBA ticket ASAP. But he may also be a very good kid from tough circumstances that would benefit from a father-figure and a stable, supportive environment like Duke. We just don't know.

I do think a school that brought in Deng, Hump, and Liv in the last four years isn't in a very strong position to take a holier than thou attitude regarding kids with 1 and done talent. Look at UNC, they have built a strong core of 3-4 year guys and topped that off with Marvin Williams/Brandon Wright guys (that we recruited as well) to pretty good results.

If a kid is simply mercenary with no desire to unpack his bags with the team and the school I completely agree that we don't want him. But there are guys who would join the team completely but also have the talent to jump early (Deng, Brand, JWill). Those guys I think we definitely want and our recruiting bears that out. K and the staff are getting to know Wall right now. If they think he's not looking for anything but a launch pad then I'm sure they will cut him loose. But if he is a good kid who wants to be part of something more than himself and K offers him I think he's a part of the family and we should be very happy to have him.

Indoor66
01-07-2009, 10:07 AM
If a kid is simply mercenary with no desire to unpack his bags with the team and the school I completely agree that we don't want him. But there are guys who would join the team completely but also have the talent to jump early (Deng, Brand, JWill).

To be fair, JWill left after 3 years WITH a degree he earned in three years - as did Boozer.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-07-2009, 10:32 AM
To be fair, JWill left after 3 years WITH a degree he earned in three years - as did Boozer.

Yup. I just wanted to have a progression (1, 2, 3 year players). Replace JWill with Dun if you prefer.

Kedsy
01-07-2009, 11:08 AM
So what are you saying? We start Wall, then after 5 minutes bring in Z or Lance and move Kyle back down to the 4? And THEN send Wall to the bench? Seriously, extend your argument and tell me where it goes from there.

And I thought the point of the original post to which I responded was that playing Kyle at the 5 was our best lineup (don't recall that it said anything about who started or finished there or who came off the bench when).

Hey, if it came down to a choice between keeping Kyle or getting Wall, that's an easy one in my book. Or do you think it wouldn't make any difference to Kyle if they told him that he'd be playing more time back at the 5 in order to get Wall? He might just decide that it wasn't worth staying at Duke.

I don't know. Maybe you guys are right. But give me Singler over Wall ANY time. I'm not saying it's an either/or proposition, just that it seems more logical to work things around Kyle's needs than Wall's.

Obviously I don't know either, but my guess is Kyle would be thrilled to bring in a Wall-type talent and that Kyle doesn't care what position he (Kyle) plays while he's out there. I'd be shocked if who we're bringing in next year would have any effect on Kyle's decision to stay or leave.

It's possible the post to which you directly responded suggested a lineup with Kyle at the 5 and stated it was our best lineup, but several posters in this thread suggested that lineup for only short periods, and I thought it was alluding to that.

To answer your first question, in my scenario I don't know or care who would go to the bench when Z or Lance came into the game. Whoever sits down at that point will come back into the game in the flow of the rotation. My point is several players will get 25 to 35 minutes a game next year (including Wall if he's here) so why would it matter who's on the floor at the opening tap? If there are reasons to include Wall in the starting lineup, the fact that Kyle might have to play the 5 for a few minutes is a non-factor.

Tim1515
01-07-2009, 11:18 AM
Keep in mind that kyle at the 5 leaves...

Miles
Mason
Kelly
Z
LT
Olek

all on the bench with 2 guards Elliot and Marty. How would we possibly get them any minutes?

Kyle will without question start at PF next year (if he stays) unless he somehow ends up playing SF instead. With the size we have coming in Singler will never play the 5 again.

Kedsy
01-07-2009, 11:26 AM
Keep in mind that kyle at the 5 leaves...

Miles
Mason
Kelly
Z
LT
Olek

all on the bench with 2 guards Elliot and Marty. How would we possibly get them any minutes?

Kyle will without question start at PF next year (if he stays) unless he somehow ends up playing SF instead. With the size we have coming in Singler will never play the 5 again.

I hear you and I understand your point, but if the best five players are Kyle and four guards then I think at least occasionally (not often, I agree) you will see that lineup.

Diddy
01-07-2009, 03:13 PM
On Rivals, they are teasing a pay article that suggests that Duke is making up ground with Wall. Being a complete cheapo, I cannot read the article. But, it does suggest that we are, which is understandable.

Just putting it out there.

Diddy
01-07-2009, 03:34 PM
Again, though this shout apparantly drifts off into nothingness:

IF G DOESN"T LEAVE, WALL WILL NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT COME TO DUKE.

Wall is definitely waiting until after the season to decide. If Duke's starting wing/guard rotation is intact, there is no reason for him to come to Duke.

Sure, we would love to stockpile a top PG to shore up the depth in the backcourt. But that won't be attractive to Wall, or any top guard really (see Kenny Boynton, who made his decision when G looked bad and was no threat to leave). Without G, there are 30+ mpg and tons of weapons, most of whom will prefer running to half-court sets. With G, there are 20ish mpg available. And don't whine about not wanting kids who aren't willing to compete for minutes. A true frosh, no matter how good, vs two Seniors and a Junior, all of whom know the system and have tons of starting experience. Wall could play great, and still not get a ton of minutes. He could play equally hard at another school and be a national superstar.

Kyle's decision to return would have little bearing, as incoming and returning players would essentially approximate his production.

This whole Kyle at the 5 is a pointless discussion. Wall will not come join a backcourt containing Jon, Nolan, AND G. Take any one away, and our wing/guard rotaion looks tasty to a pass first PG.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-07-2009, 04:24 PM
I'm curious if you have some support (quotes from Wall or his coach/family/etc.) or if this is just your opinion. I could imagine Wall taking that attitude, but I could also imagine him seeing a gaping hole at PG (as of now we have 1 converted SG with a bad back and we can force Jon into the role if desperate).

Whether or not he would be a "starter" he will get 20+ minutes which is more than Maggette had and probably close to the 30 that made Deng a top 10 pick. He'll also be on TV every game and be the clear leader for ROY. Wall will get major minutes and lots of attention wherever he ends up. Being on the most high-profile team in the nation in a year when they are poised for a title run won't hurt him one bit in terms of exposure.

davekay1971
01-07-2009, 06:05 PM
I don't think it's fair to include Wall in the "hired gun" group just yet. He may be a Kris Humphries guy who's only looking for an NBA ticket ASAP. But he may also be a very good kid from tough circumstances that would benefit from a father-figure and a stable, supportive environment like Duke. We just don't know.

You're right. For the sake of brevity (in an already long post) I oversimplified. Wall may not be a kid looking for a place to market his skills for a year before bolting to the NBA. My concern was more the attitude of the post I quoted, that seemed to imply that Duke should be more than willing to, not only take a 1-year-only kid, but also should join in the shady recruiting practices some other schools use to land him. I would prefer to see Coach K target kids who are more likely to stay for 3-4 years to build the team. If super-talented kids come in, help the team, and then leave after a year, that's okay...I just don't want to see my alma mater sacrifice principles to specifically target top recruits. Wall may not be of that ilk, but, whether he is or not, we shouldn't try to grab him by making deals for starting time, or hiring his AAU coach, or other similar things that other schools have done to land top prospects in recent years.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-07-2009, 06:15 PM
You're right. For the sake of brevity (in an already long post) I oversimplified. Wall may not be a kid looking for a place to market his skills for a year before bolting to the NBA. My concern was more the attitude of the post I quoted, that seemed to imply that Duke should be more than willing to, not only take a 1-year-only kid, but also should join in the shady recruiting practices some other schools use to land him. I would prefer to see Coach K target kids who are more likely to stay for 3-4 years to build the team. If super-talented kids come in, help the team, and then leave after a year, that's okay...I just don't want to see my alma mater sacrifice principles to specifically target top recruits. Wall may not be of that ilk, but, whether he is or not, we shouldn't try to grab him by making deals for starting time, or hiring his AAU coach, or other similar things that other schools have done to land top prospects in recent years.

We're in 100% agreement on that point. K has done a great job of steering us right in the past in terms of avoiding bad/opportunistic kids and he's generally done very well with keeping the team stocked with talented 3-4 year guys (2004-08 being the exception). I think we all agree that this principle is one to be very proud of and never to deviate from for some hope of short-term success.

That's the main reason I'm so blase about any character issues for Wall: he has to pass the K test. If K sees anything in Wall's attitude that doesn't look right, he'll move on like he did with Hump and so many others. If, OTOH, Wall passes muster with K I think we'll all be very comfortable welcoming him in to the Duke family since we know he can be trusted.

mgtr
01-07-2009, 06:15 PM
If super-talented kids come in, help the team, and then leave after a year, that's okay...I just don't want to see my alma mater sacrifice principles to specifically target top recruits. Wall may not be of that ilk, but, whether he is or not, we shouldn't try to grab him by making deals for starting time, or hiring his AAU coach, or other similar things that other schools have done to land top prospects in recent years.

Great post. In my view, though, this should be so obvious to everyone in this forum that it never needs stating. However, it appears that I am dead wrong.

SupaDave
01-07-2009, 07:10 PM
I'm hoping Plumlee and Kelly are helping with the recruiting every time they see him.

BuschDevil
01-08-2009, 12:04 AM
Caught this on the evening news (WRAL) short while ago: Kelly's Ravenscroft team beat Wall's Word of God team tonight in Raleigh. Kelly led all scorers, I beleive with 28. It would be nice to have them as teammates next year, eh?

Kedsy
01-08-2009, 12:13 AM
Again, though this shout apparantly drifts off into nothingness:

IF G DOESN"T LEAVE, WALL WILL NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT COME TO DUKE.

Wall is definitely waiting until after the season to decide. If Duke's starting wing/guard rotation is intact, there is no reason for him to come to Duke.


Do you have inside information? Because if you don't, I completely disagree. The top recruits don't think that way. They assume (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) that they'll get all the playing time they can handle.

I remember when Elton Brand was being recruited, and someone asked him a question about having to compete for minutes with other Duke bigs (I think the interviewer was talking about upperclassmen, although he may have been referring to other recruits as well). His response was they'll have to compete with me. Was it a little cocky? Yeah, although in Brand's case it was also true. But the point is I think most of the top recruits think that way.

So you can shout all you want, but I'd bet Wall's decision will absolutely not be based on whether or not G comes back to school next year. In fact, if G's status affects Wall's decision at all, I'd guess he'd be more likely to come if G's coming back because it would mean a better chance to get to the Final Four.

Just my opinion, of course.

watzone
01-08-2009, 10:53 AM
Caught this on the evening news (WRAL) short while ago: Kelly's Ravenscroft team beat Wall's Word of God team tonight in Raleigh. Kelly led all scorers, I beleive with 28. It would be nice to have them as teammates next year, eh?

Kelly had 23 and his team won 68-57. Wall had 17 and CJ Leslie 20 for WOG. Kelly also had 7 rebounds and was 8-15 from the field. It was a big win for Ravenscroft. The two teams play again this season.

watzone
01-08-2009, 10:57 AM
Do you have inside information? Because if you don't, I completely disagree. The top recruits don't think that way. They assume (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) that they'll get all the playing time they can handle.

I remember when Elton Brand was being recruited, and someone asked him a question about having to compete for minutes with other Duke bigs (I think the interviewer was talking about upperclassmen, although he may have been referring to other recruits as well). His response was they'll have to compete with me. Was it a little cocky? Yeah, although in Brand's case it was also true. But the point is I think most of the top recruits think that way.

So you can shout all you want, but I'd bet Wall's decision will absolutely not be based on whether or not G comes back to school next year. In fact, if G's status affects Wall's decision at all, I'd guess he'd be more likely to come if G's coming back because it would mean a better chance to get to the Final Four.

Just my opinion, of course.

I have a similar opinion, but let it go thinking someone else would step to the plate and you did.

The reason Wall wil go to (and I won't shout) May, is that he is truly undecided. While he will take into consideration who is on the rosters, he is not the type to shy for previously mentioned reasons.

I base my take on talks I've had with pretty much everyone involved in Walls recruiting.

jv001
01-08-2009, 11:00 AM
I have a similar opinion, but let it go thinking someone else would step to the plate and you did.

The reason Wall wil go to (and I won't shout) May, is that he is truly undecided. While he will take into consideration who is on the rosters, he is not the type to shy for previously mentioned reasons.

I base my take on talks I've had with pretty much everyone involved in Walls recruiting.

Well that's good enough for me Mark. I'll just wait until May and hope that if Coach K offers, Wall accepts. Go Duke!

Billy Dat
01-08-2009, 04:23 PM
Hopefully Nolan starting over Paulus this year helps recruting a top player like Wall - it shows that the team is a meritocracy and those with the goods will get the burn.

SupaDave
01-08-2009, 04:27 PM
Hopefully Nolan starting over Paulus this year helps recruting a top player like Wall - it shows that the team is a meritocracy and those with the goods will get the burn.

Hopefully, as Jon did last year, he will realize that it's not about starting but in how you contribute.

McClure's game last night is a testament to that.

Diddy
01-09-2009, 01:23 PM
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=898227

The above is a link to a Rivals article that discusses the incoming bigs. Further down is an answer to a question regarding Wall, Favors, and State.

When discounting the Favors and (to a lesser extent) Wall to NCSU, the auther brings up Duke. Again, Duke is linked to Wall. We must be really making up ground with this kid. Most of the articles discussing Wall now feature Duke very prominently.

We are, potentially, a fantastic situation for Wall. If, and only if, Hendo were to leave, Duke would be almost ideal for this kid. Wall likes to run, and most of our team will be geared towards that next year. Wall could play lead guard, with Scheyer and Nolan flanking him on the wings. Nolan would take the oppositions lead guard, leaving a SG (who will usually be an easier assignment) for the taller Wall to guard. Nolan and Scheyer would also be able to shoulder some of the ball handling responsibilities. And, having seen E-Will attack the rim, Wall must be able to envision an endless stread of highlight real ally oops to E-Will, as well as Olek, the Plums, Lance and Kelly.

Even if we lose Hendo (and for that matter Kyle), and don't get Wall, Duke will be a good team next year. We will have 3-4 solid guards, and a front court rotation that will be good come march. But by plugging in a great wheel man like Wall would make Duke a preseason favorite. Keep Kyle, and Duke is probably top five without Hendo and Wall. Add Wall and keep Kyle, and Duke may well be the No. 1 team next year. Texas, Pitt, Kan, and Uconn will be up there, but Duke will be one of the elites next year. No other team Wall is looking at can boast that. It would be a Carmello like sitch for Wall.

He would not bear all of the burden, but would likely get a lot of praise for a deep run.

johnb
01-09-2009, 03:23 PM
I'd be curious about the extent to which recruits pick schools based on potential pt vs the fit with the other players and the school. While we obsess over potential points per minute, I agree with previous posters that a kid who's first team all state as a junior and a likely McDondald's A-A will likely be very confident of his ability to get 25 minutes a game as a freshman--and if he glances at K's record since before his birth, he'll see that the guys who get their jerseys in the rafters all played heavily as freshmen.

I know little about Wall, but I assume he'd assume that he could take Paulus's minutes and then some; if he can't, then he's nowhere near ready for the NBA (ie, while I love G and Nolan, neither of them is ready for the NBA, either, IMHO). And, from that stance of knowing nothing about the situation, I'll assume he'll decide based on whether he wants to spend a year or two at Duke rather than some other school environment.

houstondukie
01-09-2009, 05:57 PM
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=898227

The above is a link to a Rivals article that discusses the incoming bigs. Further down is an answer to a question regarding Wall, Favors, and State.

When discounting the Favors and (to a lesser extent) Wall to NCSU, the auther brings up Duke. Again, Duke is linked to Wall. We must be really making up ground with this kid. Most of the articles discussing Wall now feature Duke very prominently.

We are, potentially, a fantastic situation for Wall. If, and only if, Hendo were to leave, Duke would be almost ideal for this kid. Wall likes to run, and most of our team will be geared towards that next year. Wall could play lead guard, with Scheyer and Nolan flanking him on the wings. Nolan would take the oppositions lead guard, leaving a SG (who will usually be an easier assignment) for the taller Wall to guard. Nolan and Scheyer would also be able to shoulder some of the ball handling responsibilities. And, having seen E-Will attack the rim, Wall must be able to envision an endless stread of highlight real ally oops to E-Will, as well as Olek, the Plums, Lance and Kelly.

Even if we lose Hendo (and for that matter Kyle), and don't get Wall, Duke will be a good team next year. We will have 3-4 solid guards, and a front court rotation that will be good come march. But by plugging in a great wheel man like Wall would make Duke a preseason favorite. Keep Kyle, and Duke is probably top five without Hendo and Wall. Add Wall and keep Kyle, and Duke may well be the No. 1 team next year. Texas, Pitt, Kan, and Uconn will be up there, but Duke will be one of the elites next year. No other team Wall is looking at can boast that. It would be a Carmello like sitch for Wall.

He would not bear all of the burden, but would likely get a lot of praise for a deep run.

I agree with many of your points.

We will be preseason #1 if Hendo and Singler return next year, even without John Wall. Add Wall, and we would be UNBELIEVABLE. Wall has to know this.

Unlike many, I expect both Hendo and Singler to come back next year. I'm less optimistic about Wall, but perhaps Coach K's success blending all that NBA talent on Team USA will convince Wall to come to Duke and be a part of a truly special team. A team with absolutely no weakness.

geraldsneighbor
01-09-2009, 06:52 PM
I'd be curious about the extent to which recruits pick schools based on potential pt vs the fit with the other players and the school. While we obsess over potential points per minute, I agree with previous posters that a kid who's first team all state as a junior and a likely McDondald's A-A will likely be very confident of his ability to get 25 minutes a game as a freshman--and if he glances at K's record since before his birth, he'll see that the guys who get their jerseys in the rafters all played heavily as freshmen.

I know little about Wall, but I assume he'd assume that he could take Paulus's minutes and then some; if he can't, then he's nowhere near ready for the NBA (ie, while I love G and Nolan, neither of them is ready for the NBA, either, IMHO). And, from that stance of knowing nothing about the situation, I'll assume he'll decide based on whether he wants to spend a year or two at Duke rather than some other school environment.


I agree. I really like Singler's game alot, but I think he needs to progress some more before he should consider leaving. I think G is a guy who has shown moments of brilliance, but I'm not sure who will draft him on potential very high up. I think G would benefit greatly from playing his senior season. IMO, a year from now Singler and Hendo will both be top 10 picks if they stay.

I'd love to have Wall, but what's the early lean on how long he will spend in college? Is he that good that we will be better for it having him around for a year or two? How often do one and done players raise banners?

Carmelo Anthony...that's all I can think of.

FireOgilvie
01-09-2009, 07:20 PM
How often do one and done players raise banners?

Carmelo Anthony...that's all I can think of.

Marvin Williams at UNC.
Greg Oden, Mike Conley, and Daequan Cook were runner-ups at Ohio St.
Derrick Rose was runner-up at Memphis.
Luol Deng was pretty good.

I don't think that this question really matters. The real question is, "Can the number 1 high school player in the country help Duke next year?" The answer is yes! I think some of you are insane to not really want him.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-09-2009, 07:27 PM
I'd love to have Wall, but what's the early lean on how long he will spend in college? Is he that good that we will be better for it having him around for a year or two? How often do one and done players raise banners?

Assuming he buys into the team concept, I think almost any good player will improve a team even if they stay for 1-2 years. Anthony is a great example but Luol Deng and Marvin Williams both made significant improvements to already-stacked teams. Heck, imagine if Kyle had been one and done. Last year's team still would have been MUCH better for his contributions.

I think it's tough for one and done guys to lead a team to a title (although Oden and Rose got pretty close in the last 2 seasons). That's why Wall would do best to join a team like Duke that already has significant experienced star power. Particularly as a pass-first PG, having weapons like Kyle, G, Nolan, etc to distribute to will only make him look better.

I know I'm Wall-crazy, but I'm so psyched because I think he's a perfect fit for Duke and vice-versa. We need (at least) a stud backup PG who can take 20+ minutes to run the offense and create easy shots. He needs a high-profile team with established players that is near his mom and has great medical facilities. If he's here for 1-2 years on his way to the NBA like Deng, Brand, etc he'll be invaluable and may help us to a title and help him get exposure and shake any bad rep he has. I suspect that the relationship he could form with K would be life-changing for a guy that seems to be looking for guidance and support which would add a whole other level to things, but even from a strictly basketball perspective I think this is a perfect fit.

Diddy
01-09-2009, 08:24 PM
Backup? The number 1 pg in the class, and one of the top 5 overall? Backup?

Maybe for a pro team, if that were possible. Duke is, potentially, a great situation for Wall. But not if he is a backup.

If G is still at Duke next year, Wall won't be at Duke. Should Hendo come back, Wall can go to Baylor or Memphis, or NCCSU if he is determined to stay close to home.

With G back, Duke has a solid rotation of 4 perimeter/wing players, especially since Kelly or Singler could spend time at the "3" should Duke go big. Duke would be returning as starters 2 seniors and 1 junior, with a highly athletic backup who might make a huge jump in the offseason. As good as Wall is, he would have trouble getting the kind of minutes any superstud wants.

Would having Wall as a backup be great? Hels yeah. For Duke. Try to look at this from the standpoint of a top 5 draft pick who is being forced to go to school for a year. Why go to a situation where there is almost insurmountable competition to be a starter? Given K's love of D, the trio of Nolan, Jon, and Hendo would be tough to crack. Should Singler alone leave, those three will start on the perimeter, PERIOD, and play huge minutes.

Heck, Wall's numbers will take a hit just comming to Duke, even if Hendo leaves and Wall can be a starter playing heavy minutes. At Baylor, NCSU, and Memphis (maybe, and if so to a lesser extent than the other 2) he will score a lot more points. NCSU and Baylor would need him to score more points, and allow him to play heavy minutes, out of necessity. 35 or so a game at a guess. At Duke, (even without Hendo) he will play closer to 25+ mpg, partially due to depth and partially to not playing at the end in blowouts. The high likelihood of winning big as a team would offset a reduced production. Getting 10-15 ppg and 7-8 apg on a very successful team may or may not be better than 20ppg and 9-10 apg on a team that bows out early in March. Certainly, at Duke, he will be on TV more. That can be a double edged sword, if his shooting is sub par.

I put the question to the board at large:

How many of you sincerely think that Wall would come to Duke if Hendo returns? And, if so, why would such a situation be good for John Wall (not why it would be great for Duke University)?

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-09-2009, 08:50 PM
I have no way of knowing what Wall will do, and unless you have some sources you're not sharing neither do you. But I think there's an extremely strong argument that it is in his best interests to come to Duke.

As I've stated, Duke gives him a unique package of exposure (on TV every game, constant media attention), a chance to go deep in the NCAA's, top medical facilities, close to home, a chance to clean up his reputed (but I believe overblown) character/attitude issues in the eyes of NBA scouts, and the chance to play for K and with a variety of weapons that will make his job as a PG much easier. What other program gives him all, or even most of those things?

Look, Wall is a GREAT player and I think everyone agrees that he'll be playing 20+ minutes per night. I think he'll get even more and I've stated that I think he'd find his way into the starting lineup by March, especially in games where our opponent isn't especially big. But even if he never starts a game, he'll get major minutes and tons of media spotlight. Maggette didn't start, but he was still a lottery pick. Marvin Williams was a 6th man and got drafted #2 overall. NBA scouts can see talent even if it isn't on court at jump ball especially when it's on ESPN every day or two and making a deep run in the NCAAs.

If Wall needs to be a starter for his ego even if he can't earn his way then he isn't the type of guy Duke (or any major program) wants to deal with. But if he's willing to work for his minutes like the other 5+ McDonald's All-Americans we'll have in the lineup he'll get plenty of court time (and, I believe, a starting spot), tons of media exposure, and a high draft pick handed to him on a plate. Tossing lobs to G on Sportscenter isn't going to do a thing to hurt his game or his draft stock.

Kedsy
01-09-2009, 09:09 PM
Backup? The number 1 pg in the class, and one of the top 5 overall? Backup?

Maybe for a pro team, if that were possible. Duke is, potentially, a great situation for Wall. But not if he is a backup.

If G is still at Duke next year, Wall won't be at Duke. Should Hendo come back, Wall can go to Baylor or Memphis, or NCCSU if he is determined to stay close to home.

* * *

I put the question to the board at large:

How many of you sincerely think that Wall would come to Duke if Hendo returns? And, if so, why would such a situation be good for John Wall (not why it would be great for Duke University)?

You keep saying Wall won't come if G is here but that doesn't make it true. I have already given my view on this (which is if G's presence has any affect on Wall's recruitment it would be for the positive -- make him more likely to come rather than less). My best guess is it won't make any difference at all.

I do agree with you, however, that if he comes to Duke he won't be a backup.

geraldsneighbor
01-10-2009, 12:17 AM
Where can I sign to bring back G and Singler for sure? By all mean Wall, join us! But, I'm not pushing G, who would be a senior, for an un-proven freshmen...that's just me.

ncexnyc
01-10-2009, 01:04 AM
Why would John Wall come to Duke facing the prospect of playing less minutes than he would at another school?

I guess because if he is as good as some of you say, he probably knows it and like most extremely gifted players, he has confidence in himself and his game to the point where he believes he will be the starter.

heyman25
01-10-2009, 04:14 AM
Henderson has been so inconsistent that if the NBA draft were held today he would not be in the first round. I think he will be back to go higher in the draft. I don't think it will be Wall's top factor in his decision of where to go.
Boynton is in the new Slam. He didn't agree with the Jason Williams comparisons.Duke really misread his intentions.

CarterTheGreat
01-17-2009, 01:50 PM
Wall and his Word of God Holy Rams are in my city this weekend for the Bass Pro Tournament of Champions. Suffice to say, Wall has put on an offensive show in the first two games. He and his mate, CJ Leslie (NCSU signee), are both averaging a little over 20 ppg and about 5 dunks each per game. This is one of the most prestigious tournaments in the region and Word of God has been putting on a pretty good show. One of our local teams gave them fits on Thursday night but WOG handled White Station, TN pretty well last night. I got to sit at the press table on Thursday night courtside and even shook hands with Bill Self, who is personally recruiting Wall. Last night, John Calapari from Memphis was there. It's pretty cool to see the level of talent in my home gym. It would be AWESOME if Wall came to Duke because he is for real. And yeah, I've read what everyone else here has to say about him leaving early or not being a good fit but he is a great player and I think would be a good addition.

FireOgilvie
01-17-2009, 04:56 PM
Boynton is in the new Slam. He didn't agree with the Jason Williams comparisons.Duke really misread his intentions.

How did Duke misread his intentions? We wanted him, went after him, and didn't get him. I don't agree with the Jason Williams comparisons either... I think he'll be much worse, which isn't really surprising considering how good Jason Williams was.

John Wall would be huge for us next year. We don't have a point guard behind Nolan Smith. Scheyer is not a point guard.

dukeballer2294
01-17-2009, 05:07 PM
First after seeing hendo's performance the last couple of games if he keeps it up i think he has the possibility of being a lottery pick if he goes, which i think he will do.
Second, although singler has improved a lot i dont see him going next year he can still improve on his jumper and i think he wants to stay in college.
Third wall is good but hes a pg. Pgs want talented players around them and he knows that yes theres talent at Kansas,Memphis,Baylor etc but there will be more at Duke then anybody next year henderson or not. Wall would start at the 1 nolan at the 2 scheyer or henderson at the 3 singler then 1 of our bigs. Nolan is such a good scorer and if we had him at the 2 wed be this years unc with 2 players who would be lottery picks the next year.
Finally, we dont recruit 1 and dones frequently but in certain situations where we lose out on otheres and we need this position and according to some hes the best player in the class of 09 we would do it. Were not like memphis or USC who dont care about how long they stay we have a stablilized formation in our longterm players and he would only help.

Ian
01-17-2009, 05:23 PM
John Scheyer: 49 Assists 28 Turnovers

Nolan Smith: 34 Assists, 34 Turnovers.

John Scheyer is a better PG.

Diddy
01-17-2009, 05:34 PM
Henderson has been so inconsistent that if the NBA draft were held today he would not be in the first round. I think he will be back to go higher in the draft. I don't think it will be Wall's top factor in his decision of where to go.
Boynton is in the new Slam. He didn't agree with the Jason Williams comparisons.Duke really misread his intentions.

Just wondering if you would care to reconsider this comment in light of recent games. Hendo looks to be unstoppable on O. He rebounds great for his position. If the Draft were held a month ago, before this recent offensive explosion, G would have been drafted on his ability to rebound and play lockdown D. Next year, in the NBA, he will play heavy minutes simply because he can lockdown the opposition SG, right now. Given his steep improvement curve, I think any team has to like not only what G can do immepiately, but where his game will probably be in a couple of years. Especially since G comes from an NBA background, so he probably won't go nuts when he gets a big paycheck.

Also, G's game appears to be more suited to the League. His iso ability on O make him hard to guard. If he keeps knocking down treys, yikes.

Can anybody seriously say that there are 15 kids you would take over G in the draft. Griffen, Monroe, and Thabeet for sure. Maybe Curry, that PG who went to Italy, Teague, and that spanish PG. Maybe on those last three. The frosh Guards likely to be one and done are not sure bets. Hendo's athleticism, combined with already polished but still improving skills put him ahead of most of those. When G starts working out for the draft, both in interviews and individual workouts, the scouts will be drooling. Of all the kids likely to be in this draft, G has as much superstar potential as anyone. In two years G could easily be seen as the best player from this draft. As all the announcers have been saying lately, G seems to have "gotten it" as a ball player. He finally understands how to play the game and use his elite level athleticism within the flow.

And unlike most of the guards likely to be in the lottery, G can do other things, namely rebound, pass, and play shutdown D.

Look, I don't thik Wall comes to Duke if Hendo is still here. I would be fine with that. But, if Hendo leaves, which looks more likely each game, Wall would be a perfect fit at Duke. Perfect. Duke doesn't lose a step, and Wall is the headliner frosh nationally, playing at an elite program geared for a DEEEEEP run in March.

If Hendo stays, I think the PT is a little too constricted for Wall. I could very well be wrong. I just think that Duke would look fabuluous if Hendo leaves, from Wall's POV. There is an open slot on the Wing, good (not great) posts, and a program that would whitewash his rep the minute he commits.

And, his mom would be close, but not too close. Trust me John, you don't want surprise visits early on a weekend morning while you are in college.

FireOgilvie
01-17-2009, 05:34 PM
John Scheyer: 49 Assists 28 Turnovers

Nolan Smith: 34 Assists, 34 Turnovers.

John Scheyer is a better PG.

Those statistics don't really show anything about playing point guard.

Very few of those assists or turnovers came with Scheyer playing point guard, but rather through the flow of the offense as more of a shooting guard.

The point guard position in the Duke offense is about handling the ball at the top of the circle and setting up the offense. Scheyer can do it, but he's much more effective as a shooting guard (as the stats you provided show).

Do we really want to give up Scheyer's playmaking and rebounding ability as a shooting guard? I don't think so.

Kedsy
01-17-2009, 06:26 PM
John Scheyer: 49 Assists 28 Turnovers

Nolan Smith: 34 Assists, 34 Turnovers.

John Scheyer is a better PG.

No, Jon Scheyer has a better assist-to-turnover ratio. He's played maybe 8 minutes at PG this year, so to say he's been a better PG is a distortion of the facts.

geraldsneighbor
01-17-2009, 07:01 PM
If Wall comes to Duke I think Nolan would either be a 6th man or play the 2, assuming G stays.

If G keeps this up, his stock is certainly rising. He would be a top 20 pick. The only thing is, unlike others, G doesn't have to leave for the money. I'm sure he will get tremendous advice from K, and his father. I'd love to see Kyle and G stick around because this team has the foundation of being very special.

jv001
01-17-2009, 07:35 PM
John Wall would be huge for us next year. We don't have a point guard behind Nolan Smith. Scheyer is not a point guard.

Yes but Jon sure does run the team well when he has the ball in his hands. Go Duke!

CarterTheGreat
01-17-2009, 10:54 PM
But I have personally seen Wall play two games this week. He does not play the point for WOG. Bishop Daniel plays the point for them, and very well I might add. Wall plays the 2, very well as well. From what I have seen, he would not be able to handle the point very well at a college level, especially during conference play. Again, it's just my opinion, but he is not yet a college PG. He has a huge upside b/c he can really score but that is not what a PG does, imho. That being said, I really would love to see this kid in blue and white next year and for a few years after. He has potential to be a four year starter and an all american.

Ian
01-18-2009, 12:49 AM
No, Jon Scheyer has a better assist-to-turnover ratio. He's played maybe 8 minutes at PG this year, so to say he's been a better PG is a distortion of the facts.

Yeah, he plays most of the game as a SG and still manages to get 50% more assists per game than Nolan. You don't find that disturbing?

My point isn't that Scheyer is a great PG. He's not, he can do it if he's asked and he can do a decent job, but of course he's a natural WG.

But he's still doing a better job of playing PG compared to Nolan Smith, who has show very little as far as running an offense is concerned, to the point that I have more faith in Scheyer playing the point and running the offense.

mo.st.dukie
01-18-2009, 03:56 AM
But I have personally seen Wall play two games this week. He does not play the point for WOG. Bishop Daniel plays the point for them, and very well I might add. Wall plays the 2, very well as well. From what I have seen, he would not be able to handle the point very well at a college level, especially during conference play. Again, it's just my opinion, but he is not yet a college PG. He has a huge upside b/c he can really score but that is not what a PG does, imho. That being said, I really would love to see this kid in blue and white next year and for a few years after. He has potential to be a four year starter and an all american.

I have to disagree with you, I saw him play a couple games this week too at the T of C and while he does play some off-ball he also plays a lot of PG. In fact, he touches the ball on just about every possession, is able to get into the paint at will and is great at dumping it off to big men for the finish, he had to have been close to double-digit assists in the championship game. He has Ty Lawson-like speed on the fast break, very good court vision, and can finish with the best of them. He didn't shoot too much from the outside but that does appear to be something he needs to work on. He is an incredible athlete and if Duke pulls off a miracle and lands him, he would be able to make everyone else on the team look better. I definitely think he is ready to be a college PG, he's probably ready to be and NBA PG.

I do however see why people have concerns about his attitude, just by how he acts on the court, of course he could be a great teammate it's just that to the spectator he comes off as having a poor attitude. The kid is ready for the NBA now, he's more than likely a one and doner, very Derrick Rose-ish.

Another kid I really like, and got a chance to watch, is 2010 PG Joe Jackson, if Duke didn't already have Thornton I'd say go after that kid. He reminds me alot of Hollis Price, the Oklahoma PG from a few years back.

Carlos
01-18-2009, 10:28 AM
Yeah, he plays most of the game as a SG and still manages to get 50% more assists per game than Nolan. You don't find that disturbing?

My point isn't that Scheyer is a great PG. He's not, he can do it if he's asked and he can do a decent job, but of course he's a natural WG.

But he's still doing a better job of playing PG compared to Nolan Smith, who has show very little as far as running an offense is concerned, to the point that I have more faith in Scheyer playing the point and running the offense.

No, I don't find it disturbing that Scheyer manages more assists per game than Nolan since the offense is sort of designed to run through Jon because he does such a great job of finding guys in the halfcourt sets.

Should I have been disturbed in 1994 when Grant Hill was the team leader in assists or should I have been grateful that we had a player who did a great job of distributing the ball from a non-traditional position?

CarterTheGreat
01-18-2009, 06:47 PM
Another kid I really like, and got a chance to watch, is 2010 PG Joe Jackson, if Duke didn't already have Thornton I'd say go after that kid. He reminds me alot of Hollis Price, the Oklahoma PG from a few years back.

I thought a lot about Jackson. He seemed to always be aware of where he was and what needed to be done in the game. He had a great shot and seemed to have that killer instinct when his team needed it. The funny thing was, he always looked so bored. I got to sit courtside and we all noticed it. He just seemed to have the game come so easy to him. He will make some coach very happy at the collegiate level. He is a player for sure.

Philadukie
01-18-2009, 08:47 PM
Yeah, he plays most of the game as a SG and still manages to get 50% more assists per game than Nolan. You don't find that disturbing?

My point isn't that Scheyer is a great PG. He's not, he can do it if he's asked and he can do a decent job, but of course he's a natural WG.

But he's still doing a better job of playing PG compared to Nolan Smith, who has show very little as far as running an offense is concerned, to the point that I have more faith in Scheyer playing the point and running the offense.

Maybe Jon is a better point guard than Nolan. But he's an even better SG. There's actually a fairly elegant explanation in economic terms for why Jon plays SG rather than PG, even if he's better than Nolan at PG. It's called comparative advantage.

The idea is, to use the common example, that I grow wheat and corn really well, and you can grow corn well but not as good as me; however, I let you grow corn so I can focus on growing wheat, which I do best. The reason is because the opportunity cost of me growing corn and wheat is greater than the opportunity cost of me focusing on wheat and you focusing on corn.

To carry this further, even if Jon is better than Nolan at PG in terms of assist distribution and running the offense, the opportunity cost is too great from not having him play SG.

So Jon grows wheat, Nolan grows corn, and we maximize our production.

SupaDave
01-19-2009, 12:27 AM
Maybe Jon is a better point guard than Nolan. But he's an even better SG. There's actually a fairly elegant explanation in economic terms for why Jon plays SG rather than PG, even if he's better than Nolan at PG. It's called comparative advantage.

The idea is, to use the common example, that I grow wheat and corn really well, and you can grow corn well but not as good as me; however, I let you grow corn so I can focus on growing wheat, which I do best. The reason is because the opportunity cost of me growing corn and wheat is greater than the opportunity cost of me focusing on wheat and you focusing on corn.

To carry this further, even if Jon is better than Nolan at PG in terms of assist distribution and running the offense, the opportunity cost is too great from not having him play SG.

So Jon grows wheat, Nolan grows corn, and we maximize our production.

WHY am I thinking about cooking oil now?

Lord Ash
01-19-2009, 07:21 AM
Because both Jon and Nolan are smooooooth and slick?

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-19-2009, 04:23 PM
Here's a funny story (http://deadspin.com/5134770/bill-self-talks-to-who-he-wants-to-when-he-wants-to) regarding Bill Self's attempts to recruit John Wall. It's obviously rumor, and I suspect this sort of thing goes on all the time. It does put into perspective how minor what Collins did was.

Of course K is steering clear of this type of thing, but I hope he's going very, very hard after Wall. I still think this kid is the missing piece.

Ian
01-19-2009, 04:34 PM
No, I don't find it disturbing that Scheyer manages more assists per game than Nolan since the offense is sort of designed to run through Jon because he does such a great job of finding guys in the halfcourt sets.

Should I have been disturbed in 1994 when Grant Hill was the team leader in assists or should I have been grateful that we had a player who did a great job of distributing the ball from a non-traditional position?

Yes, only in the sense that it tells you Jeff Capel was not a real PG.

I see you agree with me John Scheyer does a great job running the half court set, that's only proves my point that he's a better PG than Nolan Smith.

Cameron
01-19-2009, 04:36 PM
I'm doubting we have much of a chance at Wall at this point.

Merely my opinion, but the feel about the situation didn't seem too good when I was down for the Va Tech game earlier this month.

Carlos
01-19-2009, 06:36 PM
Yes, only in the sense that it tells you Jeff Capel was not a real PG.

I see you agree with me John Scheyer does a great job running the half court set, that's only proves my point that he's a better PG than Nolan Smith.

If running a half court set is the only function of the point guard then you would have a point. Unfortunately, you're only looking at one facet of a point guard's responsibility.

Who brings the ball up the court against pressure defense? Who is the guy the team looks for to initiate the fast break? Who is the guy who typically guards the other team's point guard? Don't you think these things should factor into the decision of who is a "better PG?" Or is it just all about assists in the halfcourt sets?

Ian
01-19-2009, 06:47 PM
Who brings the ball up the court against pressure defense?

The guy less likely to turn it over?


Who is the guy the team looks for to initiate the fast break?

Nobody on this team apparently since I don't see us doing much fast breaking at all.

And yes, Nolan has been good on defense but Scheyer is no slouch on that either.

Look, I hope Nolan turns his game around and grabs the PG position. But I think right now a lot of Nolan is the PG is born of expectation rather than reality. Personally I think the ideal Duke back court right now is Scheyer/GH.

The problem with that scenario is that it requires our bigs to be playing well and the last few games they have not.

Kedsy
01-19-2009, 08:16 PM
I see you agree with me John Scheyer does a great job running the half court set, that's only proves my point that he's a better PG than Nolan Smith.

Jon (not "John") Scheyer passes well in the half court set, but he by no stretch of the imagination is "running" it. Passing the ball doesn't make you a point guard. Because if it did, then Kyle Singler is our point guard, because he actually leads the team in assists.

snowdenscold
01-20-2009, 12:35 PM
Here's a funny story (http://deadspin.com/5134770/bill-self-talks-to-who-he-wants-to-when-he-wants-to) regarding Bill Self's attempts to recruit John Wall. It's obviously rumor, and I suspect this sort of thing goes on all the time. It does put into perspective how minor what Collins did was.

Of course K is steering clear of this type of thing, but I hope he's going very, very hard after Wall. I still think this kid is the missing piece.

One of the links from the main page had some really funny remarks in the comments section. My favorite:


"I'm not supposed to be talking to you, and you know that..."
When my conversations with high schoolers start like this, they end with me meeting Chris Hansen.

Bay Area Duke Fan
01-20-2009, 12:57 PM
Personally I think the ideal Duke back court right now is Scheyer/GH.



Too bad that Grant Hill has used up his eligibility.

jv001
01-20-2009, 01:01 PM
Jon (not "John") Scheyer passes well in the half court set, but he by no stretch of the imagination is "running" it. Passing the ball doesn't make you a point guard. Because if it did, then Kyle Singler is our point guard, because he actually leads the team in assists.

I would say at times Jon is our point guard and at times Kyle is our point forward. Both get the team into an offensive set at times. But Nolan guards the opponents point guard. Go Duke!

Zafort
01-25-2009, 02:15 PM
http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=316749

Diddy
01-25-2009, 02:38 PM
bad link

FireOgilvie
01-25-2009, 02:58 PM
bad link

The link works after the "colon confused colon" is taken out at the end from that face.

Very interesting article. Definitely worth reading.

Indoor66
01-25-2009, 04:45 PM
The link works after the "colon confused colon" is taken out at the end from that face.

Very interesting article. Definitely worth reading.

What does that mean: "colon confused colon"? How about a corrected link?

blueprofessor
01-26-2009, 09:42 AM
What does that mean: "colon confused colon"? How about a corrected link?

************************************************** **********
the article is very interesting!:D

Best regards---Blueprofessor:):)

RainingThrees
01-26-2009, 11:30 PM
Plus 12 rebounds and 10 assists for a triple double. wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKe8Dl3qKew

FireOgilvie
01-26-2009, 11:51 PM
Plus 12 rebounds and 10 assists for a triple double. wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKe8Dl3qKew


Very impressive. Hopefully he ends up at Duke. It would be sad to see him end up at Baylor, NC State, or Memphis where no one except local audiences have a chance to see him play every game.

Dukefan4Life
01-26-2009, 11:51 PM
I have seen where we arent even offering him! I dont know why, i guess it could be he may be a one and done. I have seen this kid in videos and have heard lots about him, to me he would be worth it even if he was one and done

duketaylor
01-26-2009, 11:58 PM
I think the chances of John Wall playing for Duke for one year would be about 2%; I like our current roster and chemistry and question if he wouldn't mess that up. Kinda like another player we've had in the past 4 years who didn't "unpack his bags." Love that line DMoore;)

RainingThrees
01-26-2009, 11:58 PM
I have seen where we arent even offering him! I dont know why, i guess it could be he may be a one and done. I have seen this kid in videos and have heard lots about him, to me he would be worth it even if he was one and done

The way our backcourt is looking next year he would be a huge asset.

Houston
01-27-2009, 09:23 AM
I think the chances of John Wall playing for Duke for one year would be about 2%; I like our current roster and chemistry and question if he wouldn't mess that up. Kinda like another player we've had in the past 4 years who didn't "unpack his bags." Love that line DMoore;)

I hope Wall is a Devil for 2009-2010 season and he will start from day one! One year at Duke will not only benefit the program but also the student-athlete.

Over the last two seasons we have had a great roster and great chemistry through January. However, Duke has won one tournament game by one point over the past two years. The more talent Duke can add and develop under Coach K will help make for an exciting spring.

Jumbo
01-27-2009, 09:24 AM
The way our backcourt is looking next year he would be a huge asset.

Based on what? Highlight videos and recruiting rankings? Do you have any idea whether he'd get along with the other players, fit in academically, adapt to Coach K's demanding style, etc.? I think the fact that he hasn't been offered yet speaks volumes. It's almost like he's an emergency backup plan if G (and maybe Marty, too) leaves. I'm actually expecting G to leave, but I still don't see Wall ever setting foot on campus as a Duke student.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-27-2009, 09:37 AM
We've kicked this around before, but I think there's an argument that almost any four- or five-star player would be a huge asset for us. Assuming G leaves we'll have a backcourt of:

PG Nolan, ?
SG Jon, Marty (Email?)

We have an enormous hole in the backcourt, especially at the PG position and Wall is the #1 PG (and player) in his class. Could he underperform? Of course. So could any recruit. If there are attitude or academic issues, K will let the kid go elsewhere. But given our need and his obvious talent I don't think there's any question that Wall would be a major on-court asset for us.

Duke has made it clear that a scholly is available to a player without formally offering in the past. I think K and Wall are still getting to know each other and I'm sure we'll all trust whatever decision K makes. But if K does want him, I can't think of a recruit I'd rather add to next year's team than John Wall.

BlueDevilJay
01-27-2009, 10:22 AM
Based on what I've read, Wall is going to end up at Baylor, in kinda the same manner that Mario Chalmers ended up at Kansas. Baylor just offered and hired Wall's AAU coach a job on their staff, a position that didn't exist 6 months ago, and are paying him over $100K a year. Appears to me the same kinda deal, we give you the job here, you 'encourage' John to come play for Baylor. I'd say 99% chance he ends up at Baylor, but at least he wouldn't be playing down the road for State. The article may have already been posted but here it is incase it hasn't been.

I found the link over on DukeUpdate

http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=316749

jv001
01-27-2009, 10:32 AM
We've kicked this around before, but I think there's an argument that almost any four- or five-star player would be a huge asset for us. Assuming G leaves we'll have a backcourt of:

PG Nolan, ?
SG Jon, Marty (Email?)

We have an enormous hole in the backcourt, especially at the PG position and Wall is the #1 PG (and player) in his class. Could he underperform? Of course. So could any recruit. If there are attitude or academic issues, K will let the kid go elsewhere. But given our need and his obvious talent I don't think there's any question that Wall would be a major on-court asset for us.

Duke has made it clear that a scholly is available to a player without formally offering in the past. I think K and Wall are still getting to know each other and I'm sure we'll all trust whatever decision K makes. But if K does want him, I can't think of a recruit I'd rather add to next year's team than John Wall.

I think John Wall would be a good asset to next years team, but also Duke would be great for this young man. He needs a Coach like Coach K that will teach him basketball and about life. I don't know if he's getting that now. If I had to guess right now, I would say he goes to Baylor. He wants to play in the NBA sooner rather than later. If we get him great, if not great. Go Duke!

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-27-2009, 11:26 AM
I think John Wall would be a good asset to next years team, but also Duke would be great for this young man. He needs a Coach like Coach K that will teach him basketball and about life. I don't know if he's getting that now. If I had to guess right now, I would say he goes to Baylor. He wants to play in the NBA sooner rather than later. If we get him great, if not great. Go Duke!

Oh, I'm a huge believer in the positive effect K could have for Wall if he really bought into what K has to teach. Wall has already credited his HS coach for helping him grow up and giving him some guidance that was missing after his father passed. I think K would be an ideal fit for Wall on and off the court.

The big question is whether Wall is looking for a relationship and guidance, or just a quick stopover on his way to the NBA. I think that's a lot of what K is trying to figure out right now. Honestly, I think this is a situation where Duke gets what's best either way. If Wall is serious about growing up and being part of something more than himself I think he ends up at Duke (Duke, of course, isn't the only program that offers these things, but I'm not sure places like Memphis are even interesting in trying to provide that). If not, he'll follow the money to Baylor or Memphis and we're better off without him.

Kedsy
01-27-2009, 11:40 AM
Based on what I've read, Wall is going to end up at Baylor, in kinda the same manner that Mario Chalmers ended up at Kansas. Baylor just offered and hired Wall's AAU coach a job on their staff, a position that didn't exist 6 months ago, and are paying him over $100K a year. Appears to me the same kinda deal, we give you the job here, you 'encourage' John to come play for Baylor. I'd say 99% chance he ends up at Baylor, but at least he wouldn't be playing down the road for State. The article may have already been posted but here it is incase it hasn't been.

I found the link over on DukeUpdate

http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=316749

I think there's a good chance he goes to Baylor, but if it was a done deal he would have already announced for them. There's nothing illegal about what Baylor did, so what's the point of waiting until April if he's already decided?

duketaylor
01-27-2009, 12:04 PM
"so what's the point of waiting until April if he's already decided?"
Well, if he would've already announced we wouldn't have 17 pages on his recruitment, that's one reason; kids wanna get their name out there and possibly drive up their stock price, if you will.

SupaDave
01-27-2009, 12:32 PM
"so what's the point of waiting until April if he's already decided?"
Well, if he would've already announced we wouldn't have 17 pages on his recruitment, that's one reason; kids wanna get their name out there and possibly drive up their stock price, if you will.

Baylor is NO lock. Just think of the market that they offer.

Also, how does a kid who was ALREADY ranked #1 before most commitments - drive his stock up?

This is basically a case very similar to Harrison Barnes. He wants to finish his basketball season and see who's there at the end. Baylor will be there but will Duke or NC State? Lowe's seat is getting warm and Duke's team could look different next year. There are a lot of decisions to make and speculation based on incidental facts wont help you much.

Jumbo
01-27-2009, 12:45 PM
There are a lot of decisions to make and speculation based on incidental facts wont help you much.

Isn't that EXACTLY what you are doing below:


Baylor is NO lock. Just think of the market that they offer.

Also, how does a kid who was ALREADY ranked #1 before most commitments - drive his stock up?

This is basically a case very similar to Harrison Barnes. He wants to finish his basketball season and see who's there at the end. Baylor will be there but will Duke or NC State? Lowe's seat is getting warm and Duke's team could look different next year. There are a lot of decisions to make and speculation based on incidental facts wont help you much.

On what info are you basing any of that speculation?

Kedsy
01-27-2009, 12:53 PM
"so what's the point of waiting until April if he's already decided?"
Well, if he would've already announced we wouldn't have 17 pages on his recruitment, that's one reason; kids wanna get their name out there and possibly drive up their stock price, if you will.

I agree with SupaDave on this. Wall is the top recruit in the nation; his "price" is already as high as you can get and his name's already "out there." Besides, his college "stock price" is irrelevant if he's already decided where he's going to play, and I can't imagine anyone in the NBA would think even marginally higher or lower of him based on whether or not he was recruited by Duke or Memphis during the months between October and April, especially since everyone but Duke was heavily recruiting him prior to October.

I'm sure being recruited is fun, but I'm also sure it gets old real fast. The kid had plenty of time to be adored before the early signing period. If his mind was made up he would have announced already.

Jumbo
01-27-2009, 12:54 PM
I agree with SupaDave on this. Wall is the top recruit in the nation; his "price" is already as high as you can get and his name's already "out there." Besides, his college "stock price" is irrelevant if he's already decided where he's going to play, and I can't imagine anyone in the NBA would think even marginally higher or lower of him based on whether or not he was recruited by Duke or Memphis during the months between October and April, especially since everyone but Duke was heavily recruiting him prior to October.

I'm sure being recruited is fun, but I'm also sure it gets old real fast. The kid had plenty of time to be adored before the early signing period. If his mind was made up he would have announced already.

I'm pretty sure duketaylor was being literal in his use of the term "price."

SupaDave
01-27-2009, 12:56 PM
Wall has gone on record stating that he will wait till the end of the season and in the very article posted he and his handlers state that the Baylor situation has nothing to do with him. He has been told to do what's best for him.

Baylor would be there for me at the end of the season if one of my mentors was in the program. I think that goes for most any of us.

His ranking is NOT speculation. So how does he drive his stock up? I don't get it.

Fact: Duke's team WILL look different next year. New additions in Plumlee and Ryan. Graduations of McClure and Greg.

Lowe's seat - while this is nothing near concrete - I took it straight from today's ACC round-up. "In a recent column on Herb Sendek’s success at Arizona State, Caulton Tudor suggested that “the time could be approaching when the Sidney Lowe experiment runs its course.” State fans aren’t particularly happy with the way things are going either, and it’s hard to see State beating Miami."

SupaDave
01-27-2009, 01:07 PM
Plus 12 rebounds and 10 assists for a triple double. wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKe8Dl3qKew

WOW!!! Geez. I'm almost speechless. I haven't seen play like that from a point guard in a real long time. He had like 6 dunks!!! WHAT!

Slackerb
01-28-2009, 10:24 AM
FWIW, All the "Lowe's seat is warm" talk is just that....media talk. Caulton Tudor may think it so, and writers of DBR may think it so, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Keep in mind that Lee Fowler is quite slow to pull the plug, and I can assure that unless something drastic happens, Lowe will be at State for a few more years minimum.

SilkyJ
01-28-2009, 05:47 PM
I'm pretty sure duketaylor was being literal in his use of the term "price."

I thought he was being figurative but either way, and call me a cynic, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a literal price tag involved somewhere.

I mean heck, if the guy is dealing with Calipari ya know something is up.

slower
01-28-2009, 06:35 PM
Plus 12 rebounds and 10 assists for a triple double. wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKe8Dl3qKew

Hey, I don't care WHO they were playing. That was scary! I usually don't put much stock in youTube highlight reels, but...man, Wall looks scary good.

BD80
01-28-2009, 10:17 PM
Any question now that Wall would start next year? Nolan did a good job defensively, but we really need someone to push the ball and to penetrate.

CY_devil
01-29-2009, 11:30 AM
FYI, from Lawrence Journal World - Unofficial KU newspaper.

"Wall, 6-foot-4 from Word of God Christian Academy in Raleigh, N.C., said he currently is “leaning toward Kansas and Memphis, not specifically in that order.”

He also has Baylor, North Carolina State, Oregon and Kentucky on his list."

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2009/jan/29/kansas-notebook/

CY_devil

SupaDave
01-29-2009, 11:39 AM
FYI, from Lawrence Journal World - Unofficial KU newspaper.

"Wall, 6-foot-4 from Word of God Christian Academy in Raleigh, N.C., said he currently is “leaning toward Kansas and Memphis, not specifically in that order.”

He also has Baylor, North Carolina State, Oregon and Kentucky on his list."

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2009/jan/29/kansas-notebook/

CY_devil

The article that the writer is quoting is from Sept. 2008. LJW needs to step their game up.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=3608959

I'm shocked I haven't seen this article. This has little bearing 5 months later...

watzone
01-29-2009, 11:51 AM
FWIW, All the "Lowe's seat is warm" talk is just that....media talk. Caulton Tudor may think it so, and writers of DBR may think it so, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Keep in mind that Lee Fowler is quite slow to pull the plug, and I can assure that unless something drastic happens, Lowe will be at State for a few more years minimum.

I pity the Pack. There is a coach in Minnesota who would consider the job.

SupaDave
01-29-2009, 11:53 AM
I pity the Pack. There is a coach in Minnesota who would consider the job.

Hmmm... Tubby? That's very interesting...

allenmurray
01-29-2009, 12:01 PM
"In a recent column on Herb Sendek’s success at Arizona State, Caulton Tudor suggested that “the time could be approaching when the Sidney Lowe experiment runs its course.” State fans aren’t particularly happy with the way things are going either, and it’s hard to see State beating Miami."

Yeah, but Caulton Tudor became irrelevant about 5 or 6 years ago. I think now he just sits in his basement and makes things up. :rolleyes:

Travi_K
02-08-2009, 09:09 AM
I have never had any evidence from what other posters were saying about Wall's so called handlers but the article does validate in a way the advice that he is getting. It also does indicate that this kid just isn't coming to Duke unless K pulls of a miracle. I guess most of us kind of knew this going in but it is somewhat disapointing when you actually read things like this. I know it is ultimately his decisions but this is looking much worse than Boyton and many of us had a bad feeling about losing him as well.

HDB
02-08-2009, 09:22 AM
I agree, not an encouraging article. The kid would have to be pretty strong to pick Duke in the face of that --- it's the ONE school his handlers clearly don't want him to attend.

dukejim1
02-08-2009, 09:39 AM
If anything in that article is true (and I tend to believe it) John Wall should not end up at Duke for Duke's sake not his. It appears that his inner circle have found a way to calm him down but they are ignoring the responsibility message. John Wall needs Duke, Carolina or other programs that will help him develop the ownership of responsibility to others that will be required to maximize his life. I don't blame John Wall, he is a developing teenager, but I do disagree with his "handlers" that they are doing things in the best interest of that kid. Good luck to John Wall, but Nolan will be our man.

watzone
02-08-2009, 10:26 AM
And this rabbit hole goes much deeper. It's funny! Is he saying NCSU, Memphis and Baylor have no structure at all? How about the next level? If you want a career in street ballin, you ignore structure.

Diddy
02-08-2009, 12:04 PM
I agree, not an encouraging article. The kid would have to be pretty strong to pick Duke in the face of that --- it's the ONE school his handlers clearly don't want him to attend.

I read it that they fear him going to Duke. At Baylor, Memphis, or State, his "handlers" would have ample access to their meal ticket. If he were to go to Duke, he would be in the care of a strong willed, father figure, of a coach.

K could, and very probably would, cut these parasites out of Wall's life. They might lose their meal ticket. K has a powerful agent himself, and access to great intel within the basketball world. Former players and assistants litter the NBA landscape. If Wall goes to Duke, he will quickly realize that he doesn't need some b-ball washouts coaching AAU or HS ball to make his decisions. If Wall commits to Duke, he will come for the first summer session, and those losers will be out of his life come August. Duke, like UNC who they were also down on, is a family. A family that doesn't need any hangers on. Duke has great support.

And they know it. I read that article as them being terrified of Duke. The reason for that fear is that Wall is seriously considering Duke. Even they admit they don't have that much control. Wall is 18+, so he doesn't even need a guardian to sign his LOI.

Those leeches are terrified, and it clearly came through the article.

K having a regimented system? Really? Was that the same system he adapted for the NBA All stars in the Olympics? That gets mentioned in every game on TV, and don't think that Wall hasn't noticed. And, he is the ideal age to have started watching hoops when Duke was letting J-Will free-wheel within our team concept.

I read that article and I saw that Wall would benefit from a guy like K, and his handlers are very cognizant of this. They are also cognizant that Wall is seriously considering Duke, where ample minutes are available, and he would be featured on a team that would be a national power with him attached. He would be close to home, but not TOO close.

No one else has considered this, but maybe Wall wants out from under his "handlers." This kid, while a little immature, seems to have a pretty good handle on how the Hoops world works. He isn't naive.

I liked what that article said.

ncexnyc
02-08-2009, 12:16 PM
A very nice post Diddy. It's always amazing how people can see the exact same thing and come away with completely different viewpoints.

You've sold me, but now can Coach K sell this to John Wall.;)

Houston
02-08-2009, 12:39 PM
JW would benefit greatly from the Duke environment, the Duke family and our HOF coach. The university would also benefit from having a unique talent like Wall. However, I don't see the urgency on JW's part to get rid of the excess baggage. If Wall wanted to assert his independence, he could announce his intentions today and begin building a relationship with coach K. It feels like a Memphis lean.

HDB
02-08-2009, 01:42 PM
I read it that they fear him going to Duke. At Baylor, Memphis, or State, his "handlers" would have ample access to their meal ticket. If he were to go to Duke, he would be in the care of a strong willed, father figure, of a coach.

K could, and very probably would, cut these parasites out of Wall's life. They might lose their meal ticket. K has a powerful agent himself, and access to great intel within the basketball world. Former players and assistants litter the NBA landscape. If Wall goes to Duke, he will quickly realize that he doesn't need some b-ball washouts coaching AAU or HS ball to make his decisions. If Wall commits to Duke, he will come for the first summer session, and those losers will be out of his life come August. Duke, like UNC who they were also down on, is a family. A family that doesn't need any hangers on. Duke has great support.

And they know it. I read that article as them being terrified of Duke. The reason for that fear is that Wall is seriously considering Duke. Even they admit they don't have that much control. Wall is 18+, so he doesn't even need a guardian to sign his LOI.

Those leeches are terrified, and it clearly came through the article.

K having a regimented system? Really? Was that the same system he adapted for the NBA All stars in the Olympics? That gets mentioned in every game on TV, and don't think that Wall hasn't noticed. And, he is the ideal age to have started watching hoops when Duke was letting J-Will free-wheel within our team concept.

I read that article and I saw that Wall would benefit from a guy like K, and his handlers are very cognizant of this. They are also cognizant that Wall is seriously considering Duke, where ample minutes are available, and he would be featured on a team that would be a national power with him attached. He would be close to home, but not TOO close.

No one else has considered this, but maybe Wall wants out from under his "handlers." This kid, while a little immature, seems to have a pretty good handle on how the Hoops world works. He isn't naive.

I liked what that article said.

I don't disagree that Duke could be good for this kid; but I think it's wishful thinking on your part that he'll make that decision given the situation. Duke is a longshot for Wall in my opinion (and the article makes it clear why that's the case).

Diddy
02-08-2009, 02:19 PM
I don't disagree that Duke could be good for this kid; but I think it's wishful thinking on your part that he'll make that decision given the situation. Duke is a longshot for Wall in my opinion (and the article makes it clear why that's the case).

The article featured a lot of quotes by his handlers. But almost nothing from Wall himself, other than the realization that those arround him may not have his best interests at heart.

If his handlers were so powerful, Duke would never even have gotten a visit. Until Wall says otherwise, I think Duke has a chance for this kid.

Diddy
02-08-2009, 02:32 PM
JW would benefit greatly from the Duke environment, the Duke family and our HOF coach. The university would also benefit from having a unique talent like Wall. However, I don't see the urgency on JW's part to get rid of the excess baggage. If Wall wanted to assert his independence, he could announce his intentions today and begin building a relationship with coach K. It feels like a Memphis lean.

He could assert his independance. But, he probably doesn't know what is the best situation for himself.

If Memphis loses certain players to early entry, they get very attractive. If Latavious Williams gets eligible, his committment to either Baylor or Memphis could alter the scenario. NCSU will have ample shots and pt available, in a year where the some of the top ACC squads could get a lot younger.

Gerald Henderson and Kyle Singler's decisions would have serious impact on him for Duke.

Until the end of the season, once next year's rosters are more or less set, Wall cannot fully decide where the best situation for him is. All I know about John Wall is what is best for Duke (ergo me). I am no less selfish than his handlers. I would love to have him on next years team, even if everyone comes back. The team would be stacked, and an odds on favorite for the FF or better. But that might not be the best situation for him. It may be. I don't know, cause I don't personally know him, his family, friends, situation, personality, whatever.

All I know is that Duke would be better with him than without him (if K wants him). That is why I want him to come to Duke. Sure, the education and training he will get will probably be good for him. But the primary reason I want any recruit to come to Duke is so that Duke will be a better basketball team, win the NC, and allow me to be an obnoxious braggert to all of my retard UNC coworkers and well wishers.

Any good that Wall, or any recruit, would incur by comming to Duke is wholly secondary to my desire for Duke to win.

But, lets be patient. It makes for good press and discussions, but Wall is pretty clear that he is going to wait until the end of the year to suss out the best situation for him. I hope and think it is Duke. But that article was not a death knell for Duke.

dukemsu
02-08-2009, 05:39 PM
This article is chock-full of misconceptions about Duke Basketball.

Regimented system? Hardly. Duke's defense is very regimented, but K has always tailored his system to his talent and gives his players a great amount of freedom on the offensive end, particularly the best players, of which I'm assuming Wall would be. Duke does not run a large amount of set plays other than on out of bounds situations. Duke spreads the floor and depends on the players moving the ball and making good decisions.

Sounds to me like the entourage doesn't want to deal with a strong leader who is totally in command.

I'll be interested to see what the kid says, as other posters have mentioned.

dukemsu

kramerbr
02-08-2009, 05:56 PM
Its apparent that Wall's handlers feel threatened by Duke in some way. For Wall's sake I hope he seriously considers what Duke has to offer "him".

dukelifer
02-08-2009, 07:12 PM
Its apparent that Wall's handlers feel threatened by Duke in some way. For Wall's sake I hope he seriously considers what Duke has to offer "him".
I have only seen a few highlights and read a few reports, but Wall seems to be an explosive player who is only 6' 4" with a suspect jumper. Can anyone name a one-and-done player who is comparable to him who has actually made it in the NBA? Is he Derrick Rose-like- who sees the floor well and is a natural leader? From what I have read he is still a very raw player and in the NBA- those guys rarely make it for very long- if at all unless they are a legit 6' 9" or taller.

Lord Ash
02-08-2009, 07:19 PM
The guy has some RIDICULOUS video floating around the Youtube. Most player highlight videos are all the same; guy hits some threes, guy slams it a few times, rinse and repeat. But Wall's various videos are on a whole other level.

Having said that... his highlights are very And 1, and given the whole "Well, would K sit him if he said he wished he had gone to Carolina if Carolina is beating us?" comment was just... well, for lack of a better term, AMAZING.

FireOgilvie
02-08-2009, 08:10 PM
Wall seems to be an explosive player who is only 6' 4" with a suspect jumper.


He looks a lot like Gerald Henderson coming out of high school... except he can pass and handle the ball.

He's projected as the number 1 pick in the 2010 Draft.

"Only 6'4."" He's a point guard.

Bluedog
02-08-2009, 08:29 PM
After reading that article....I'm probably in the very slim minority, but I don't think I really want Wall to come to Duke. If Wall chose his own "handlers" (whatever that means, I'm not really sure), it doesn't seem like Duke is a good fit for him. Is Wall a great athlete and basketball player who would make virtually any team better? Yes. But I think it would be best for Duke and for Wall, for him to go elsewhere...If Wall has the same opinion as his "handlers," it seems as if his only intention for college is to showcase his talent for the NBA. Add that to the questionable academic resume of Wall, and it doesn't seem like the best situation for him. But if he chooses Duke, then I have the wrong read on Wall. So my post make no sense and uses faulty logic. ;)

jipops
02-08-2009, 08:52 PM
Collins does make a great point in the article. Duke has always designed its style of play around it's personnel. You hardly ever see the same style of offense in consecutive seasons. For instance, there has been no Phoenix offense this season as there was last season. The year before we ran a lof offense through McRoberts as kind of a point/center which was an attempt to accommodate his style of play. Going back to '06 the strength of personnel was Redick and Williams (and unfortunately that was pretty much it). So the offense revolved around getting shots for JJ and dumping down low to Shelden.

I think it is an excellent selling point with very tangible proof. If K and staff has a pg that can jet down the floor to start the offense early, I'm thinking it's likely they would take advantage of that strength.

Interesting article though. I would have no idea the kind of world John Wall is living in and dealing with right now. I do hope that the people that are supposedly guiding him are indeed serving his interests and not their own, nor their own perceptions.

Hancock 4 Duke
02-08-2009, 08:55 PM
If you read the article on the front page, it says that he will play one year and go to the Pros. He also seems a little too self confident. He wouldn't do well at Duke. For his sake, he should choose someone else.

FireOgilvie
02-08-2009, 09:00 PM
If you read the article on the front page, it says that he will play one year and go to the Pros. He also seems a little too self confident. He wouldn't do well at Duke. For his sake, he should choose someone else.

You don't know that. For his sake, let him make his own decision.

SilkyJ
02-08-2009, 09:05 PM
Is he Derrick Rose-like- who sees the floor well and is a natural leader? From what I have read he is still a very raw player and in the NBA- those guys rarely make it for very long- if at all unless they are a legit 6' 9" or taller.

I think he is comparable to Rose with his skill set and leadership abilities. I think he used to not be such a great leader in that he would criticize teammates and didnt always have a great attitude, but I think most agree he has come a long way from those days.

mgtr
02-08-2009, 09:13 PM
Well, 100% of my knowledge on this subject is based on what I read in this forum. From that, I conclude that we might be asking for trouble if we got Wall. Do we want a player with "handlers?" Could Coach K cut them out of the picture? Would that be part of the deal with Wall? If Wall fancies himself a one and done, whether he really is or not, will he unpack his bags and go to class? Would Coach K want him if he didn't? Is winning more games (possibly) worth the possible disruption to the team? Isn't the team concept more important that one player?
Now I don't know the answers to these questions, but the fact that they exist tends to put me into the anti-Wall camp. This is probably unfair to Wall -- he may be a great kid with bad press. Fortunately, we have a guru at Duke who can parse all this out and reach the best decision for Duke. So, I refuse to concern myself about it, and will be happy however it goes.

dukelifer
02-08-2009, 09:14 PM
He looks a lot like Gerald Henderson coming out of high school... except he can pass and handle the ball.

He's projected as the number 1 pick in the 2010 Draft.

"Only 6'4."" He's a point guard.

Then he is as good as Derrick Rose. If he does not show that ability in year one- he will NOT be the number 1 pick. But as suspect jumper for a 6'4" player will not get it done in the NBA and that seems to be a consistent critique on his game. He will be interesting to watch.

FireOgilvie
02-08-2009, 09:19 PM
Well, 100% of my knowledge on this subject is based on what I read in this forum. From that, I conclude that we might be asking for trouble if we got Wall. Do we want a player with "handlers?" Could Coach K cut them out of the picture? Would that be part of the deal with Wall? If Wall fancies himself a one and done, whether he really is or not, will he unpack his bags and go to class? Would Coach K want him if he didn't? Is winning more games (possibly) worth the possible disruption to the team? Isn't the team concept more important that one player?
Now I don't know the answers to these questions, but the fact that they exist tends to put me into the anti-Wall camp. This is probably unfair to Wall -- he may be a great kid with bad press. Fortunately, we have a guru at Duke who can parse all this out and reach the best decision for Duke. So, I refuse to concern myself about it, and will be happy however it goes.

Every player has "handlers." They're usually described as "parents," but in Wall's case his father is dead and his mother is sick.

Devilsfan
02-08-2009, 09:32 PM
Word of God played Ravenscroft and Mr. Wall was on totally another level than anyone on the court, even our multi-star rated, three point shooting
6'9" Duke recruit.

ikiru36
02-08-2009, 09:38 PM
To me, this article was the best evidence yet that Duke actually does have a chance to enroll Wall, and that if they do, it will involve genuine understanding between both parties of how they can best benefit from the relationship.

That his seeming confidantes are basically saying (out loud even) they're afraid he'll choose Duke seems to reveal to me that John himself is interested in what Duke has to offer him. And if John is genuinely considering Duke, that speaks to me of his having a decent head on his shoulders.

There's plenty of ammunition out there from Duke haters to give him the excuse to not take on the additional challenges coming to Duke offers (to go along with lots of unique benefits.)

To be fair to Clifton and Beckwith, what they actually say in the article is not that they are dead set against Duke, but they want to be certain that Coach K would be looking out for what is best for John and not be prone to bench him excessively if he has attitude struggles. This is a fair question on their part and I'm sure that Coach K has an honest answer for them. Whether that answer will satisfy John Wall, Clifton, or Beckwith remains to be seen, but it is an intelligent question for them to be concerned with on his behalf. That they're bothering to ask the question at all tells me that they do see the other benefits Duke uniquely has to offer.

*John will not get as much day-in day-out national TV coverage anywhere else (dramatically better then at NC State or Baylor). This allows him to maximize his name recognition among fans, maximizing endorsement potential.

*Geographically, Duke allows him to remain in close proximity to his mother, while gaining some separation by not being in the same town.

*His coach would have the most recent deep connections to top NBA players and coaches through head coaching the latest Dream Team.

*Duke will likely have the best additional talent, making a deep tournament run or championship a possibility even if Wall stays just one year, as expected.

*Duke should likely have the best talent and depth among his stated options, pushing his skills daily in practice more than other schools are offering. (and as much as I like Nolan and Elliot, they really seem more combo than point guards. Of course, Wall is a combo guard himself but is clearly the most promising at the PG position.) Though it seems to go against many people's pre-conceptions about Coach K, he has remarkably frequently allowed Freshmen (PGs in particular) to start from jump if they are good enough and even been willing to build the team's offense around their talents.

...etc.

All that being said, I won't be surprised if John Wall chooses another school, but I do think that Duke is likely the best fit for him so long as he's willing to play team basketball, while growing his own style of play. (and I think he also needs to genuinely be willing/interested in being a Student as well as an Athlete for however brief or long he sticks around.)

John, we'd love to have you came and join the Duke family!!! But if not, all the best and I'll heartily support all the other great Student/Athletes who chose to represent the University, accepting all the associated responsibilities and opportunities for growth and greatness.

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mgtr
02-08-2009, 10:12 PM
Every player has "handlers." They're usually described as "parents," but in Wall's case his father is dead and his mother is sick.

Wow, parents are handlers. Sounds like the USC guy, who demanded a certain amount of PT and shots per game, as I recall. Is that what we want to deal with? Lets see, Scheyers parents are his handlers, right? Henderson's dad is his handler, right? Singlers parents are his handlers, right? Stephen Currys dad is his handler, right? I doubt all of the above. I repeat, I don't think we need players with "handlers."

FireOgilvie
02-08-2009, 11:07 PM
Wow, parents are handlers. Sounds like the USC guy, who demanded a certain amount of PT and shots per game, as I recall. Is that what we want to deal with? Lets see, Scheyers parents are his handlers, right? Henderson's dad is his handler, right? Singlers parents are his handlers, right? Stephen Currys dad is his handler, right? I doubt all of the above. I repeat, I don't think we need players with "handlers."

What I'm saying is that John Wall has no choice but to have "handlers" because of his family situation. "Handlers" is the term the author chose to use. You have absolutely no idea what kind of situation it is, but you choose to automatically believe the worst. You just named 4 people who come from traditional families, 2 of which had former NBA players for fathers. You don't think that the families were involved in the recruiting process? For all we know, Stephen Curry is getting paid under the table to stay at Davidson. Maybe you should open your eyes and realize that not everyone comes from a perfect home. Stop letting stereotypes dictate how you think. If Coach K thinks John Wall would be a good fit for the program, and Wall decides to come here, then who are you to judge? If Coach K decides to never offer him a scholarship and Wall goes elsewhere, big deal. Don't anonymously bash a high school kid when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. That goes for everyone on here.

weezie
02-09-2009, 12:04 AM
fireogilvie is right. I feel bad about bashing this kid. I also feel bad that his handlers/people/coaches felt it was necessary to open their mouths to the extent that they've further tarnished Wall's image. None of them comes across as being over-endowed with brains.
Sad.

Diddy
02-09-2009, 12:25 AM
fireogilvie is right. I feel bad about bashing this kid. I also feel bad that his handlers/people/coaches felt it was necessary to open their mouths to the extent that they've further tarnished Wall's image. None of them comes across as being over-endowed with brains.
Sad.

Great Post.

Wall handlers basically said their "ward" was a fragile head case that needed to be coddled and petted even if he messes up or doesn't play hard.

NBA general managers must be salivating for a player like that. Shoe companies and other endorsers must be lining up for a kid that sounds like a borderline nutjob just waiting to implode.

The people looking out for his best interests couldn't have made Wall sound worse if they tried.

I don't think the kid is that bad. Keep in mind that he is a long-time AAU teammate of one Mr. Ryan Kelley. Ryan seems to think the world of this kid and really pushing to get him here, and I think that speaks volumes.

And this board does need to lay off the kid. His background sounds like it is as bad or worse than any kid we have ever had. I know Will Avery came from a bad situation, but that was supposedly in part to blame on a GA public school system that cares more about HS football than actually teaching kids even a couple of Rs.

Wall has it bad. Dead dad, sick mom, no other real family. These "handlers" probably started out with the best intentions, but it would be hard for anyone in modest circumstances to look past the Millions of dollars this kid may represent. It would be easy to say "in the best interest of the kid" if you were a parent. Odds are, with that relationship, you would never be cut out of a kids life, assuming you had been present in said life for his entire childhood.

Wall has no such attachment to his coach. Lots of top players go to college, and never meaningfully connect with AAU or HS coaches beyond a few token appearances or donations. If Wall came to Duke, he might reallly move on from his handlers. I don't like it, but they may never have a meal ticket like Wall present himself ever again. He is a once in a lifetime talent for most HS and AAU programs. At Duke, all that $ might disappear.

I hope, and firmly believe, that Wall is intelligent enough to make this decision in his own interests.

I have said it numerous times, but I really believe that if Wall were a done deal to Baylor, it would have happened already. When his AAU coaches brother went to Baylor, his commitment was allegedly surefire, and imminent. And then it never came.

Wall grew up on tobacco road. Literally. Raleigh is Bisected by I-40 (tobacco road). He grew up with Duke-UNC, Coach K, Deano, et al. If his elementary was anything like mine, he was probably (competently) filling out a March Madness Bracket by the 5th grade. To walk away from all that for Baylor, in B-Ball purgatory, at a FOOTBALL school, may be harder than his handlers comprehend.

We may not even have a chance. But I really think it is down to us and Memphis.

ps. His handlers should be more worried about Memphis. They correctly think Calipari is slimely, but I bet the handlers already arround the Tigers program are not exactly going to welcome fresh faces.

mgtr
02-09-2009, 06:07 AM
Everybody reacted to my second post, ignoring my first post where I said I was probably being unfair to Wall. I also said that Coach K could parse all this out and make the correct decision.
Lets all be honest -- none of us knows the true story here. Fortunately Coach K is a pretty smart guy and will do what is right for Duke.

whereinthehellami
02-09-2009, 08:55 AM
I have said it numerous times, but I really believe that if Wall were a done deal to Baylor, it would have happened already. When his AAU coaches brother went to Baylor, his commitment was allegedly surefire, and imminent. And then it never came.

His handlers seemed to make a big deal (too big of a deal) about other schools outside of Baylor being in the picture. Kind of like the interviewing of minority coaches for head coaching positions in college.

Also anyone who thinks the handlers will quiet down once Wall is in school hasn't been paying attention. Wall might be a good kid but he got used. I hope Coach K dosn't sell his soul so to speak.

watzone
02-09-2009, 09:45 AM
Great Post.

Wall handlers basically said their "ward" was a fragile head case that needed to be coddled and petted even if he messes up or doesn't play hard.

NBA general managers must be salivating for a player like that. Shoe companies and other endorsers must be lining up for a kid that sounds like a borderline nutjob just waiting to implode.

The people looking out for his best interests couldn't have made Wall sound worse if they tried.

I don't think the kid is that bad. Keep in mind that he is a long-time AAU teammate of one Mr. Ryan Kelley. Ryan seems to think the world of this kid and really pushing to get him here, and I think that speaks volumes.

And this board does need to lay off the kid. His background sounds like it is as bad or worse than any kid we have ever had. I know Will Avery came from a bad situation, but that was supposedly in part to blame on a GA public school system that cares more about HS football than actually teaching kids even a couple of Rs.

Wall has it bad. Dead dad, sick mom, no other real family. These "handlers" probably started out with the best intentions, but it would be hard for anyone in modest circumstances to look past the Millions of dollars this kid may represent. It would be easy to say "in the best interest of the kid" if you were a parent. Odds are, with that relationship, you would never be cut out of a kids life, assuming you had been present in said life for his entire childhood.

Wall has no such attachment to his coach. Lots of top players go to college, and never meaningfully connect with AAU or HS coaches beyond a few token appearances or donations. If Wall came to Duke, he might reallly move on from his handlers. I don't like it, but they may never have a meal ticket like Wall present himself ever again. He is a once in a lifetime talent for most HS and AAU programs. At Duke, all that $ might disappear.

I hope, and firmly believe, that Wall is intelligent enough to make this decision in his own interests.

I have said it numerous times, but I really believe that if Wall were a done deal to Baylor, it would have happened already. When his AAU coaches brother went to Baylor, his commitment was allegedly surefire, and imminent. And then it never came.

Wall grew up on tobacco road. Literally. Raleigh is Bisected by I-40 (tobacco road). He grew up with Duke-UNC, Coach K, Deano, et al. If his elementary was anything like mine, he was probably (competently) filling out a March Madness Bracket by the 5th grade. To walk away from all that for Baylor, in B-Ball purgatory, at a FOOTBALL school, may be harder than his handlers comprehend.

We may not even have a chance. But I really think it is down to us and Memphis.

ps. His handlers should be more worried about Memphis. They correctly think Calipari is slimely, but I bet the handlers already arround the Tigers program are not exactly going to welcome fresh faces.

First off, it's Ryan "Kelly." But you're getting it. They're pretty much saying Wall cannot handle college ball , life or the league without them. And you're right that NBA teams don't want to hear what they are saying to anybody who'll listen.

Also, if Wall had immediately cast his future to Baylor, heads would have been spinning with the Clifton signing. They had to let it die down and that's as far as I will take this angle in a public forum.

I asked John where the process was just after the game versus Ravenscroft and he started to talk, but was quieted by a man I'd never seen before. The media was told not to ask recruiting questions or they would leave. The way in which it was handled was controlling and he had an army of grown men there to watch every move.

The interview I had with some around him makes the N & O quotes pale in comparison. Hearing what rolled off their tongues without thinking before hand was baffling.

To hear his handlers talk, John needs, needs, needs. Yet, when talking to John, I don't see this. It's a really dirty affair in how controlled his every move is and there are not legitimate concerns about Duke as they say, but some sort of fear. They know talking to K would impress Wall and they are bound to know what K can do for the young man. I ask, who can help Wall more, his handlers or Coach K? Who would NBA execs listen to? Would K sidetrack Wall by showing him the door or the pine? Duke epitomizes family and that's a negative? Or maybe, he will get, "I'll be your handler throughout the process. You need someone there, John."

What really bugs me is that they are selling John on freedom and lack of structure. I ask, is there a single NBA team that just let's a player run wild? There has to be some discipline. If John takes the easy road in college, where he'll be catered to, how will that help him in the NBA?

It's time for John to take the next step and he needs a coach who'll take him the rest of the way. If one truly cars about John, they would not expect to hang on. I can hear it now. "John, let me tell you how to spend the money, you know I'll charge a reasonable fee." While I say the in jest, it could fit. "John look where I've got you. We've come a long ways." Hmmm!

As you said, I think their were good intentions at the start, but a lot of folks are questioning the process at this point.

John will get that NBA contract, but will he have staying power when it's up? Will he have learned what the league wants to make a long fruitful career or will he fade to the pine or get suspended for something he can learn to avoid under the right coach?

K has put nothing but character kids (groomed and ready) into the league and there is a team of Gold Medal winners who put their ego aside to buy into the team concept. John should at least be allowed the same chance if he wants it. He has some good opportunities, but Duke is worthy of a little more attention than they are "seemingly" being allowed.

ice-9
02-09-2009, 10:58 PM
Wow, it doesn't sound like Wall is going to come to Duke. No matter how impressed Wall is with Coach K and Duke, I doubt he'd every completely ditch his people. Didn't he refer to them as his father figures? And I don't see Coach K allowing outsiders to interfere with his teams. Soo....perhaps that's why Wall doesn't have a scholarship offer yet.

sivartrenrag
02-09-2009, 11:06 PM
Wall needs Duke. Duke needs Wall. If Coach K can get to him without his handlers being in the way, I think it will work out.

The problem is that that will probably never happen because his handlers know that Wall won't need them if he has Coach K mentoring him.

jv001
02-10-2009, 07:58 AM
Sounds like his handlers are coming across like sports agents. This is discouraging because Wall could really use Coach K's coaching. Not just about bb but about life. I hope he steps up and tells these people what he wants is a Coach that will be a father like figure to him now and after his playing days are over. Go Duke!

umdukie
02-26-2009, 03:23 AM
Just wanted to give you guys the heads up: John Wall updated the list of the schools he is interested in and Duke is listed as Medium(an upgrade) along with a bunch of other schools like Memphis, Baylor, Kansas, etc. That is WITHOUT AN OFFER from Coach K! Does anybody else feel good about our chances to land this kid if Coach K and the staff want him?

Bob Green
02-26-2009, 07:52 AM
Does anybody else feel good about our chances to land this kid if Coach K and the staff want him?

No, I do not!

mkline09
02-26-2009, 08:02 AM
I recognized John Wall as a special talent but I'm not sure as a fan I would want the team to have to deal with all the baggage that comes with this kid. He is obviously a one and done. I have no problems with that if you are as good as he supposedly is, but I'd rather get a good player like Eric Bledsoe who will stick around develop in the system and be a true team player. Most of what I've read of Wall seems like a real talented kid but has some issues with discipline that I'd rather not see at Duke. Save the discipline cases for U-Conn.

BD80
02-26-2009, 09:28 AM
I recognized John Wall as a special talent but ... . Most of what I've read of Wall seems like a real talented kid but has some issues with discipline that I'd rather not see at Duke. Save the discipline cases for U-Conn.

HAD some issues with discipline.

Why say negative things about a recruit of interest? If Ryan Kelly (AAU teammate) and the coaching staff think he is worth it, why should you publish negative comments?

All recent reports indicate he is cleaning up his act - which would clearly make him ineligible at uCon :rolleyes:

SupaDave
02-26-2009, 09:31 AM
fireogilvie is right. I feel bad about bashing this kid. I also feel bad that his handlers/people/coaches felt it was necessary to open their mouths to the extent that they've further tarnished Wall's image. None of them comes across as being over-endowed with brains.
Sad.

I disagree. If his image was so tarnished - would this thread be THIS long?

And as far as brains go - that's an incredible statement considering you only know what the media tells you. Especially since they are doing what everyone else does - using their connections to hopefully move a little higher on that ladder.

Houston
02-26-2009, 10:14 AM
I recognized John Wall as a special talent but I'm not sure as a fan I would want the team to have to deal with all the baggage that comes with this kid. He is obviously a one and done. I have no problems with that if you are as good as he supposedly is, but I'd rather get a good player like Eric Bledsoe who will stick around develop in the system and be a true team player. Most of what I've read of Wall seems like a real talented kid but has some issues with discipline that I'd rather not see at Duke. Save the discipline cases for U-Conn.

I am not convinced the 12th best PG in his class can play at Duke. Historically, if one does not play as a freshman, their role will be limited as an upper classman. Duke has also recruited a talented PG in the 2010 class.

Wall is a special talent. If Coach wants him, that is good enough for me. People make mistakes. Since Wall has matured, he should be given the opportunity to benefit from the Duke family. Wall should also be given a lot of credit for navigating a very challenging background.

moonpie23
02-26-2009, 11:42 AM
i would imagine that a private meeting with coach K would help both player and coaching staff make the right decision. His "handlers" are looking at their meal ticket.....that will become obvious.

I'm not comparing Walls to Lebron, but the circus similarities are there. Imagine what it's like for EVERYONE ON THE PLANET to be telling you that you are the greatest thing since sliced bread........now, imagine that you are only 17 or 18 years old and how it would affect you.


lebron has done ok.....

Oriole Way
02-26-2009, 12:13 PM
I am not convinced the 12th best PG in his class can play at Duke. Historically, if one does not play as a freshman, their role will be limited as an upper classman. Duke has also recruited a talented PG in the 2010 class.

I don't think it's fair to rely so heavily on rankings in order to come to the conclusion that someone can't play at Duke.

GopherBlue
02-26-2009, 02:20 PM
I see the recruitment of John Wall as a low risk situation for Duke, and am content to just trust in K and see how it plays out. Certainly, JW is a fantastic basketball player, and could make significant contributions to any college team, Duke included.

If JW to Baylor is a done deal, or he chooses a school like Memphis, then by virtue of that decision, some of the concerns posted in this thread and elsewhere seem valid and perhaps he was not a good fit with Duke, and vice versa.

If, on the other hand, JW is truly interested in Duke, and he elects to enroll and play hoops at Duke, then he appears to have done so for the right reasons and many of those same concerns should be allayed.

The risk, it seems, is the opportunity cost - what other activities could the Duke staff (and us DBR lounge lizards) have been focusing on if they were not spending limited time on John Wall, and what decisions of other recruits may have been affected by this dalliance?

An interesting litmus test, this is. Hmmmmmm....

gotham devil
02-27-2009, 05:45 PM
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3937276

loran16
02-27-2009, 05:53 PM
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3937276

To be honest here, i still have doubts we'd be picked over memphis. Incidentally, have we even offered him a scholarship yet?

If i was him, I think he'd probably think of memphis first, as he'd start there for sure right away, he knows Derrick Rose, his natural comparison, had a great fit in the system and was able to use his only year there to leap straight to the NBA....obviously other factors apply, but I 'd think the Memphis offer there would be hard to beat.

Kedsy
02-27-2009, 09:28 PM
If i was him, I think he'd probably think of memphis first, as he'd start there for sure right away, he knows Derrick Rose, his natural comparison, had a great fit in the system and was able to use his only year there to leap straight to the NBA....obviously other factors apply, but I 'd think the Memphis offer there would be hard to beat.

This keeps coming up, but he'd start here for sure right away too. Even if G and Kyle stay. He'd start.

BD80
02-27-2009, 10:40 PM
This keeps coming up, but he'd start here for sure right away too. Even if G and Kyle stay. He'd start.

Looks like EMail might give him a run :)

BlueintheFace
02-27-2009, 11:28 PM
The only way I see John coming to Duke is under the following circumstances.

1) K and John are able to talk for an extended period of time by themselves.

2) As a result of this/these conversations, K decides that John is the kind of kid that he wants in the Duke program.

3) K tells John, "Look John, I think you can be a truly special player. I think you can be one of the most talented kids to come to Duke and go in to the NBA. You will receive more national exposure here than anywhere else, but here is the deal. No handlers. No crew. No "inner circle." X,Y, and Z... I don't want them around you or my team. Starting now, it'll to be you, me, our coaching staff, your teammates, and your Mom. That is your circle, your family, and your only family. If you work hard and listen, I promise that you will become a better player and a better man. If you look me in the eye and tell me that you can do this, I will offer you a scholarship and you will become a Duke Bluedevil, a part of the family. If not, I wish you the best of luck."

4) John says he can and accepts the scholarship.

Basically, K is going to have to express his desire to work with him, put forth the conditions, and hope John wants to make a big change and take his life in the Duke direction.

Devilsfan
02-28-2009, 11:36 AM
What? No posse? No entourage? He needs to talk to Nate and CWell, then he'll understand who is really looking out for his best interests. I think that is really what we and his mom want.

ice-9
02-28-2009, 01:39 PM
Yeah sounds good but....Wall has identified some of those people as "father figures." Call me naive, but I don't think kids are going to ditch their father figures any time soon in exchange for one year of college ball.

I agree for Wall to commit Blueintheface's scenario, or some variation of it, has to come to pass. Ultimately however I don't think it'll happen.

dgoore97
02-28-2009, 10:12 PM
seem a bit over the top. no one has suggested that scheyer -- whose parents seem to be at every home game, or singler's or henderson's parents/handlers be exiled. i think Wall will ultimately do what he thinks is in his best interest with advice from people he considers close to him, just as every other kid does. seems out of place for people on this site to be suggesting they know who has his best interests at heart and who doesn't and therefore who it is appropriate for him to seek guidance from.

dgoore97
02-28-2009, 10:45 PM
i went to Duke. i hope we get Wall or even better brandon knight (who apparently is also a straight a student) in 2010.

Lord Ash
03-01-2009, 01:13 AM
I will trust in K and his judgment.

GarrickB28
03-02-2009, 10:38 PM
John Wall's high school career is officially over. His Word of God Rams lost 56-53 in the state finals. There is controversy surrounding the last shot. A youtube video clearly shows the ball still in the hands of the Charlotte United Faith player. He said he was taking time off before he finishes the recruitment process. In a recent interview Wall stated the need for his WOG squad to tighten up their defense. Sounds like a blue devil to me. fingers crossed

FireOgilvie
03-02-2009, 11:01 PM
John Wall's high school career is officially over. His Word of God Rams lost 56-53 in the state finals. There is controversy surrounding the last shot. A youtube video clearly shows the ball still in the hands of the Charlotte United Faith player. He said he was taking time off before he finishes the recruitment process. In a recent interview Wall stated the need for his WOG squad to tighten up their defense. Sounds like a blue devil to me. fingers crossed

Ouch. WOG has a good argument. I found the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fySr6sOiiH4&feature=channel

Here is an article...

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/preps/story/569548.html

The guard that hit the shot, Ian Miller, is a 4 star '10 recruit committed to FSU.

Also, Muggsy Bogues is an assistant coach for Charlotte United Faith. Pretty sweet.

Bluedog
03-03-2009, 12:08 AM
Ouch. WOG has a good argument. I found the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fySr6sOiiH4&feature=channel

Here is an article...

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/preps/story/569548.html

The guard that hit the shot, Ian Miller, is a 4 star '10 recruit committed to FSU.

Also, Muggsy Bogues is an assistant coach for Charlotte United Faith. Pretty sweet.

Maybe they should have instant replay in high school. ;) Live at full speed I could see how the refs missed that. It was hard to tell, but when watching it in slow-mo, it's clear he still has the ball touching his hand at 0.00. Too tough of a call to make live, IMO. It was very close. WOG had the ball with 14 sec remaining after United Faith tied it up and Wall dribbled off his foot for a costly turnover. Wall did not have a very strong game.

duketaylor
03-03-2009, 12:39 AM
Anyone really thinking John Wall ends up at Duke is.....not really in the loop, IMO.

Greg_Newton
03-03-2009, 01:07 AM
Sorry for the tangent, but... something about all those youtube videos of the last shot really rubs me the wrong way. For example, John Wall's D-One "handlers" posted a video of the ending from their youtube account (ONEent) called "Refs RUIN John Wall's State Championship". It's one thing for Seth Greenberg to blame an ACC loss on a blown travel call, but for these guys to try to smear a great and well-earned achievement of a bunch 17 and 18 year olds (the majority of whom will probably not play at the next level, if it's like most NC prep/private schools) for sole purpose of keeping the hype high for your already #1 rated prospect is pretty low. Sure the shot was a millisecond late, but there's no way a HS ref is going to take away that shot in that situation, especially seeing it only once in real time... if you're the shooter, you'll have a little leeway. I say let them enjoy it, they earned it.

(BTW, I'm not affiliated with United Faith or anything, I'm just on their side here!)

arnie
03-03-2009, 11:09 AM
"Sorry for the tangent, but... something about all those youtube videos of the last shot really rubs me the wrong way. For example, John Wall's D-One "handlers" posted a video of the ending from their youtube account (ONEent) called "Refs RUIN John Wall's State Championship". "

Can you imagine how the "handlers" will react if K doesn't give Wall the playing time his "handlers" think he deserves. I still don't understand why Duke would rent a player and his "handlers" for a year.

Carlos
03-03-2009, 11:36 AM
Those handlers may want to look back a few seconds and ask themselves why United Faith had the opportunity for that shot in the first place. Apparently Wall dribbled the ball off his foot in the preceding possession to give the ball to the opponent.

That doesn't mean Wall's a bad player - I remember JWill getting the ball stolen away while he was running out the clock at the end of the half at Maryland. It does mean that those posting that the "refs ruined John Wall's State Championship" may be more than a little myopic.

jimsumner
03-03-2009, 11:43 AM
"I still don't understand why Duke would rent a player and his "handlers" for a year."

I don't think Duke would be renting Wall and his handlers for a year. The only way Wall ends up in Durham is if everyone agrees that Mike Krzyzewski will be Wall's only coach for how ever long Wall stays at Duke.

Nothing in Mike Krzyzewski's career even remotely suggests that he would seek or accept an arrangement similar to what is suggested in the quoted post.

SupaDave
03-03-2009, 12:08 PM
Anyone really thinking John Wall ends up at Duke is.....not really in the loop, IMO.

There is no "LOOP" - there's only one person that matters - and that's Wall.

SupaDave
03-03-2009, 12:17 PM
"Sorry for the tangent, but... something about all those youtube videos of the last shot really rubs me the wrong way. For example, John Wall's D-One "handlers" posted a video of the ending from their youtube account (ONEent) called "Refs RUIN John Wall's State Championship". "

Can you imagine how the "handlers" will react if K doesn't give Wall the playing time his "handlers" think he deserves. I still don't understand why Duke would rent a player and his "handlers" for a year.

Doesn't really matter how they react. If they are lucky then ONE of them will be sitting behind the bench. The other is already at Baylor.

And for those of you who INSIST that the handlers are a bad thing - just THINK about this - if there were no handlers - there would be no John Wall right now.

Both of his primary handlers are willfully employed people and will still be able to deal with John as they please after his one year WHEREVER is up. I think they understand that.

Remember that they were also his COACHES and most coaches would like to see their players get some PT - parents as well. I bet ALL of you know what Tyler Hansborough's father looks like so please - get a grip.

Hey - they lost the game on a questionable play and since they had a personal investment it was especially bitter. However, what we want to do is change that mindset but keep it personal. What K would do is show you ALL of the plays that allowed that LAST play to be so crucial. And that is HOW we can get John Wall to Duke. That is how John Wall can become a truly special player...

roywhite
03-03-2009, 01:08 PM
SupaDave...I'll take your word on this one. If you think this is a marriage that can work, that means a lot, because you're a straight shooter.

I just haven't been counting on this happening. We'll see.

arnie
03-03-2009, 03:20 PM
"I still don't understand why Duke would rent a player and his "handlers" for a year."

I don't think Duke would be renting Wall and his handlers for a year. The only way Wall ends up in Durham is if everyone agrees that Mike Krzyzewski will be Wall's only coach for how ever long Wall stays at Duke.

Nothing in Mike Krzyzewski's career even remotely suggests that he would seek or accept an arrangement similar to what is suggested in the quoted post.

I guess I'm in the minority here, but if any player's plans are to only stay one year at Duke, I'd rather he not come. It just seems like it's a place to hang his hat until the NBA allows him to play.

SupaDave
03-03-2009, 03:45 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here, but if any player's plans are to only stay one year at Duke, I'd rather he not come. It just seems like it's a place to hang his hat until the NBA allows him to play.

Maybe you've heard of ummmm.. Josh McRoberts.

And actually I take exception to the comment b/c if I'm a college basketball player with the ability to go to Duke - I'm also thinking about my ability to go pro. It's only natural. Whether it's one year or not. Deng is a prime example so to speak.

If a player comes to Duke and BUYS in then I don't care if he leaves after the first dang on semester, he's taking that experience with him. Let's not forget that Duke has been used as a springboard for MANY careers - not just basketball...

SupaDave
03-03-2009, 03:55 PM
SupaDave...I'll take your word on this one. If you think this is a marriage that can work, that means a lot, because you're a straight shooter.

I just haven't been counting on this happening. We'll see.

Thanks Roy, I appreciate it. The funny thing is that I'm pretty hopeful about Wall. Just call it a personal perspective. I had some of the opportunities that Wall has and my mom wouldn't let me go any further than Greensboro - I can't even imagine if my mom had been sick. That takes a toll on a young man.

Not to mention, with friends like Kelly doing his best Andre Dawkins impersonation I'm not so sure he's getting to talk to the recruits at other schools which could end up being huge for us.

Compared to Patterson and Monroe who some of you were salivating over, I think we have a much better chance at getting Wall.

I'd even go out on a limb and say that Patterson's parents were more involved in the recruiting process than Wall's confidants (as a matter of fact - from here on out I will only refer to them as such).

And SINCE a little bit of perspective is important, the next time you talk about Wall's confidants - I want you to remember how fine you were with Patterson's parents...

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/goodmanonfox/2007/05/16/Patterson_News_Conference_Laughable

bass-piscator
03-03-2009, 04:28 PM
"I guess I'm in the minority here, but if any player's plans are to only stay one year at Duke, I'd rather he not come. It just seems like it's a place to hang his hat until the NBA allows him to play. "

You wouldn't have wanted Kobe? :-)

arnie
03-03-2009, 04:38 PM
Maybe you've heard of ummmm.. Josh McRoberts.

And actually I take exception to the comment b/c if I'm a college basketball player with the ability to go to Duke - I'm also thinking about my ability to go pro. It's only natural. Whether it's one year or not. Deng is a prime example so to speak.

If a player comes to Duke and BUYS in then I don't care if he leaves after the first dang on semester, he's taking that experience with him. Let's not forget that Duke has been used as a springboard for MANY careers - not just basketball...

Like I said, I'm in the minority on this. Most people that use Duke as a springboard for careers probably went to class and chose a major. If you don't care if the player leaves after the 1st semester, then I guess the basketball program is independent of the classroom.

CameronCrazy'11
03-03-2009, 04:40 PM
"I guess I'm in the minority here, but if any player's plans are to only stay one year at Duke, I'd rather he not come. It just seems like it's a place to hang his hat until the NBA allows him to play. "

You wouldn't have wanted Kobe? :-)


Yeah I don't understand this line of thinking. You have 13 scholarships to give out any one year. We only have 11 scholarship players next year (with Henderson + Singler). What's wrong with giving someone one of those free scholarships for one year. As long as you plan for what happens after that player leaves. You only get burned if someone leaves early who you were counting on having later.

SupaDave
03-03-2009, 04:44 PM
Like I said, I'm in the minority on this. Most people that use Duke as a springboard for careers probably went to class and chose a major. If you don't care if the player leaves after the 1st semester, then I guess the basketball program is independent of the classroom.

From the students themselves...

http://www.dukechronicle.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticle&ustory_id=f1ce16de-8dc7-4d32-8642-95a617c4874d&page=2

arnie
03-03-2009, 05:09 PM
From the students themselves...

http://www.dukechronicle.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticle&ustory_id=f1ce16de-8dc7-4d32-8642-95a617c4874d&page=2

That's quite a response to prove your point. The article speaks to student athletes and Sean Dockery (who stayed 4 years and got his degree). Your statement that you don't care if a player leaves after the 1st semester doesn't seem to fit the theme of the article.

SupaDave
03-03-2009, 08:21 PM
That's quite a response to prove your point. The article speaks to student athletes and Sean Dockery (who stayed 4 years and got his degree). Your statement that you don't care if a player leaves after the 1st semester doesn't seem to fit the theme of the article.

But this is where you read the entire statement and not cut off the sentence. Therefore, if Wall BUYS in then is he not a student-athlete?

BD80
03-03-2009, 09:14 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here, but if any player's plans are to only stay one year at Duke, I'd rather he not come. It just seems like it's a place to hang his hat until the NBA allows him to play.

And how many times do you need to say that on this board? You aren't going to change Coach K's mind if he is interested in the kid. And saying it over and over and over does not add to the board. All it does add is negativity toward a potential recruit.

If Coach K wants him, I'll cheer for him while he is in a Duke uniform. Depending on what he does and how he acts while he is at Duke, I'll have to see if I will root for him at the next level. I root for Luol, I don't root for Josh. I don't say negative things about any Blue Devil. Except Lefty. And Rick Waggoner. And Feinstein. And ...

It sounds like John Wall may be a really good kid, and is in the process of turning his life around. He may come and stay for 2 or 3 years. Nobody knows yet.

lifelongdevil
03-03-2009, 09:30 PM
your shot a rick wagoner is absolutely ridiculous and just slightly unrelated to john walls recruitment

BD80
03-03-2009, 10:22 PM
your shot a rick wagoner is absolutely ridiculous and just slightly unrelated to john walls recruitment

But shots at Feinstein and Lefty are fine?

It was a joke. Listing the three of them together should have made that clear. :confused:

map0924
03-03-2009, 10:59 PM
John Wall in Minges Coliseum tonight in Greenville with ECU point guard Brock Young. He was watchin the Eastern Regional tournament hosted by ECU. If he can drive 2 hours to Greenville to watch this, why can't he drive 20 minutes to Durham to talk to Coach K and take in the Florida State game? He's not coming to Duke.

dgoore97
03-03-2009, 11:07 PM
doesn't mean anything. don't get hysterical. do you think he's going to ECU now? i bet he didn't come precisely because someone would assume it meant he WAS coming to Duke. it's completely reasonable for him to stay away if as he has said, he doesn't want to talk about recruiting.

Duvall
03-03-2009, 11:28 PM
your shot a rick wagoner is absolutely ridiculous and just slightly unrelated to john walls recruitment

I think every American has a right to take shots at Rick Wagoner at this point, though it is off-topic.

BD80
03-05-2009, 05:15 PM
Jeff Goodman reports that Rivals (pay site) is reporting that John is visiting Baylor this weekend.

If that is to be his choice, maybe the drama will soon end. I still hope he comes to Duke.

yancem
03-05-2009, 08:48 PM
But this is where you read the entire statement and not cut off the sentence. Therefore, if Wall BUYS in then is he not a student-athlete?

In general, I'm not a big fan of recruiting the one and done type players. Part of my hesitancy is I think that kids should enjoy being kids and embrace the college experience. I know that the money is hard to pass up, especially for those who grew up without much, but once you enter the real world you can't go back. Another reason I'm not a fan of one and dones is that I like getting to know the players and watching them grow and learn. I know that this reason is selfish but its how I feel. The last reason is that I think that to a certain extent it tarnishes a program's image and makes the it look like winning is the only thing that matters. I see nothing wrong with placing a strong emphasis on education. I do however, feel that one of the main purposes of attending college is to prepare for your chosen career and for many of the kids Duke recruits, this means the nba. So when the nba comes calling, I can't hold a grudge if a player decides to enter the draft.

That being said, you are right about the buying in thing. I think the Deng totally bought into the Duke family (in fact I think it was only because of actual family that he left after his freshman year). If Wall is willing to totally buy in then I don't have a problem with Duke trying to sign him. The problem is, I'm not sure if it is possible to totally buy into any school if before you step foot on campus you have decided that you are going to declare for the draft after your freshman year.

This is the inherent problem with the 1 year rule. Simply put, college isn't for everyone and some of these kids are forced to go to college for 1 year even though they are talented to go pro right out of high school. To me this puts everyone in a tough spot.

SupaDave
03-05-2009, 09:09 PM
In general, I'm not a big fan of recruiting the one and done type players. Part of my hesitancy is I think that kids should enjoy being kids and embrace the college experience. I know that the money is hard to pass up, especially for those who grew up without much, but once you enter the real world you can't go back. Another reason I'm not a fan of one and dones is that I like getting to know the players and watching them grow and learn. I know that this reason is selfish but its how I feel. The last reason is that I think that to a certain extent it tarnishes a program's image and makes the it look like winning is the only thing that matters. I see nothing wrong with placing a strong emphasis on education. I do however, feel that one of the main purposes of attending college is to prepare for your chosen career and for many of the kids Duke recruits, this means the nba. So when the nba comes calling, I can't hold a grudge if a player decides to enter the draft.

That being said, you are right about the buying in thing. I think the Deng totally bought into the Duke family (in fact I think it was only because of actual family that he left after his freshman year). If Wall is willing to totally buy in then I don't have a problem with Duke trying to sign him. The problem is, I'm not sure if it is possible to totally buy into any school if before you step foot on campus you have decided that you are going to declare for the draft after your freshman year.

This is the inherent problem with the 1 year rule. Simply put, college isn't for everyone and some of these kids are forced to go to college for 1 year even though they are talented to go pro right out of high school. To me this puts everyone in a tough spot.


Two quick points:

Michelle Wie went to college after life in the "Real World" - it's probably a sanctuary for her as well as the many Dukies who have come back to finish their degrees.

Everyone is NOT in a tough spot. No college program is comprised solely of one and done players. Those one and done players get a taste of what's it's like to live outside of their responsible parties reigns. There's a lot to learn in that one year.

And while I'm at it, just ask Syracuse, Ohio State, and Texas if they're upset about their one and dones. The only program who could have a legitimate beef is Georgia Tech - and they've gone to the final four in the last ten years.

Just remember that a team is made of many parts. Everyone has their role and Wall will have his if he becomes a Duke student. I don't know how much faith you have in K but I've been a believer for a while now. In one of his finest seasons, it seems there's more to come...

SilkyJ
03-05-2009, 10:13 PM
If that is to be his choice, maybe the drama will soon end. I still hope he comes to Duke.

Me too, although while I'm interested b/c he's a big talent, im just now sure whats to follow b/c if we haven't offered him than that should say something about how we feel about him, and for those that want to make the argument that there's some "understood agreement" that one is waiting for him if he wants to come to duke but that it comes with some strings, i.e. be a student, team first attitude, play defense (possibly get rid of some of the handlers) and he HASN'T said that he is willing to do that - not that he's said no, but that he hasn't said YES, than that should say something about he feels about us.

(me personally, this is how I look at these situations: not formerly offering makes him another guy we're looking at. Part of it is that he's a top 3 player but even so we look at tons and tons of top players: kevin love, Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, brandan wright, derrick favors to pick a few household names (all top 3). heck Shaun Livingston, mcroberts, and luol, were all top TWO recruits, and the list goes on and on. We follow a lot of people (and get our fair share), most of them the creme de la creme, and following the ones we offer is hard enough. This is just another guy on the radar, and while he's a big blip so are all lots of our guys...)

yancem
03-06-2009, 12:15 AM
Two quick points:

Michelle Wie went to college after life in the "Real World" - it's probably a sanctuary for her as well as the many Dukies who have come back to finish their degrees.

Everyone is NOT in a tough spot. No college program is comprised solely of one and done players. Those one and done players get a taste of what's it's like to live outside of their responsible parties reigns. There's a lot to learn in that one year.

And while I'm at it, just ask Syracuse, Ohio State, and Texas if they're upset about their one and dones. The only program who could have a legitimate beef is Georgia Tech - and they've gone to the final four in the last ten years.

Just remember that a team is made of many parts. Everyone has their role and Wall will have his if he becomes a Duke student. I don't know how much faith you have in K but I've been a believer for a while now. In one of his finest seasons, it seems there's more to come...

Michelle Wie is/was in a very different situation. She turned pro while she was in junior high so when she entered college, she did so at the same age as she would have anyway. The young men we are talking about would be returning (if they chose to) when they were significantly older or just for summer school for several years. While this may provide the education aspect of college it is also a completely watered down version of the college experience as a whole. I happen to thing that there is an immense value in the overall experience of going to college beyond simply the academics.

My point about everyone being in a tough spot applies to the individuals that are good enough for the nba right out of high school and don't have much/any interest in going to college. Because of the nba's rules they can't enter the draft and I think that we are see from Brandon Jennings that the Europe for 1 year is so great so that leaves college or hang out at the local gym playing pick up. For coaches there is a risk recruiting guys that don't want to be in school and go to class. It can have a negative effect on team morale, they have to be constantly looking out for shady people providing benefits, etc.

Now all of this is not to say that Wall fits into this category. I have no idea. I do trust in K, but like I don't know anything about Wall outside of a few sports article and the ruminations of the DBR message boards, I also have no insight as to what K thinks or knows about him either. In fact, my guess is that no one on this board does. My guess is that he hasn't made up his mind yet and that is why a scholarship hasn't been offered but ultimately, we'll just have to wait and see. If K decides to offer Wall a scholarship he decides to come to Duke then I will cheer for him like any other player.

As for the other schools that have had one and dones, Ohio State got a final four out of Oden and Conley but I'm betting that the high number of one and dones they have had recently will become an issue, Memphis also got a final four out of Rose so I doubt that their complaining, Texas got nothing but good press from Durant (retiring his jersey was a joke). Syracuse got a NC from Anthony so I'm sure they're ecstatic but I put him in a different category. He could have gone pro out of high school but really wanted to go to college at least for a year. He BOUGHT in so I'm fine with that.

Ironically, for all of the bad mouthing that McRoberts gets on this board, I think he did buy in his freshman year. He could have gone pro out of high school but chose to come to Duke. The problem he faced was the transition to the college game may have been a little more difficult than he expected or his with JJ and Shelden on the team his role was smaller than expected. My guess is that he was hoping to be a one and done but realized he wasn't going to be a lottery pick and felt like he had to come back. Total speculation on part, I'll admit but it does seem to fit.

Ok that's enough rambling at midnight.

TigerEye
03-06-2009, 01:04 AM
I apologize for not posting earlier, but it took a whole day for my account to be verified...

We broke the story about Wall visiting Baylor yesterday.

http://memphisroar.com/2009/03/breaking-news-john-wall-to-take-an-official-visit-to-baylor/

I recieved word that he arrived safely today.

If anything news happens, i'll let you know.
We'll try to be quick with getting new info out regarding Wall, and we do it for free.

thanks, and best of luck. (beat those heels sunday!)

yancem
03-06-2009, 08:20 AM
I apologize for not posting earlier, but it took a whole day for my account to be verified...

We broke the story about Wall visiting Baylor yesterday.

http://memphisroar.com/2009/03/breaking-news-john-wall-to-take-an-official-visit-to-baylor/

I recieved word that he arrived safely today.

If anything news happens, i'll let you know.
We'll try to be quick with getting new info out regarding Wall, and we do it for free.

thanks, and best of luck. (beat those heels sunday!)

Thanks for keeping us posted. It is nice to read actual news regarding Wall instead of debating recruiting philosophies and the merits of one and dones.

DU Band Prez 88
03-06-2009, 12:42 PM
Thanks for keeping us posted. It is nice to read actual news regarding Wall instead of debating recruiting philosophies and the merits of one and dones.

Does everyone realize that there have been 22 pages of postings on whether or not Duke can recruit John Wall? This is really ridiculous.

Duke has a game to play against UNC on March 8, which the team can win. Duke has an ACC tournament and an NCAA tournament to compete in, and I for one am excited about the next few weeks of college basketball and, current injuries aside, am optimistic about Duke's chances in both tournaments. Why are we even thinking about John Wall?

Duke basketball is going to be just fine for the future, regardless of whether or not John Wall matriculates at Duke and, if he does, whether or not he is a "one and one" player.

SupaDave
03-06-2009, 01:27 PM
Does everyone realize that there have been 22 pages of postings on whether or not Duke can recruit John Wall? This is really ridiculous.

Duke has a game to play against UNC on March 8, which the team can win. Duke has an ACC tournament and an NCAA tournament to compete in, and I for one am excited about the next few weeks of college basketball and, current injuries aside, am optimistic about Duke's chances in both tournaments. Why are we even thinking about John Wall?

Duke basketball is going to be just fine for the future, regardless of whether or not John Wall matriculates at Duke and, if he does, whether or not he is a "one and one" player.


There's a thread for all of the topics you mentioned above. No reason why we can't discuss Wall (or Patterson & Monroe for that matter) on these boards - ad nauseum if need be...

There's a soccer thread with over 33 pages - would you like to go and tell them that isn't relevant as well?

quickgtp
03-06-2009, 02:19 PM
There's a thread for all of the topics you mentioned above. No reason why we can't discuss Wall (or Patterson & Monroe for that matter) on these boards - ad nauseum if need be...

There's a soccer thread with over 33 pages - would you like to go and tell them that isn't relevant as well?

Good call, but I will say that I believe there is no chance that we get Wall. If we truly wanted him that bad we would have made a big push. Personally I think I would rather get a guy like Bledsoe anyway!

CDu
03-06-2009, 02:26 PM
Does everyone realize that there have been 22 pages of postings on whether or not Duke can recruit John Wall? This is really ridiculous.

Duke has a game to play against UNC on March 8, which the team can win. Duke has an ACC tournament and an NCAA tournament to compete in, and I for one am excited about the next few weeks of college basketball and, current injuries aside, am optimistic about Duke's chances in both tournaments. Why are we even thinking about John Wall?

Duke basketball is going to be just fine for the future, regardless of whether or not John Wall matriculates at Duke and, if he does, whether or not he is a "one and one" player.


As has been pointed out, there has been much discussion of the Duke/UNC game and the upcoming ACC tournament. Probably much moreso in the last few weeks than the John Wall recruitment.

The reason that there are 22 pages of John Wall discussion is because John Wall is the #1 recruit in the country, is on Duke's radar, and has been for MONTHS! Note that this thread began back in October. Would it have made sense to talk about the UNC game back in October? Obviously not - there were other games to be played. Thus, there isn't a UNC game thread dating back to November, and thus there isn't a 22-page UNC game thread.

Wall's recruitment has significant implications on next year's team. I see nothing wrong with discussing it. I would have a problem with discussing it if it meant nobody was discussing current events. But that is not the case. One can quite easily discuss both the big games this weekend and next week AND the Wall recruiting situation.

3rd Dukie
03-06-2009, 02:32 PM
And how many times do you need to say that on this board? You aren't going to change Coach K's mind if he is interested in the kid. And saying it over and over and over does not add to the board. All it does add is negativity toward a potential recruit.

If Coach K wants him, I'll cheer for him while he is in a Duke uniform. Depending on what he does and how he acts while he is at Duke, I'll have to see if I will root for him at the next level. I root for Luol, I don't root for Josh. I don't say negative things about any Blue Devil. Except Lefty. And Rick Waggoner. And Feinstein. And ...

It sounds like John Wall may be a really good kid, and is in the process of turning his life around. He may come and stay for 2 or 3 years. Nobody knows yet.

While I don't seem to have a strong conviction on this subject, I think this post best reflects my own thinking. Perhaps I am an incurable optimist, although I have never been called that, but who knows what a 19 year old kid might do after being exposed to a classy program for only one year? Stranger things have happened. There have been some very compelling arguments on both sides of this topic on this forum.

throatybeard
03-06-2009, 03:23 PM
I've seen some form of this comment about 143 times: "if Wall is a one-year type of guy, then I just don't want him at Duke at all."

I'll tell you when I learned my lesson about taking that position. I said it about Carlos Boozer. We all know how that turned out. Since then I've managed to keep my mouth shut, at least in this one way.

I trust Mike Krzyzewski and his people to get player personnel. They're working on infinitely more information than anyone on this board.

Greg_Newton
03-06-2009, 03:32 PM
Wall's recruitment has significant implications on next year's team. I see nothing wrong with discussing it. I would have a problem with discussing it if it meant nobody was discussing current events. But that is not the case. One can quite easily discuss both the big games this weekend and next week AND the Wall recruiting situation.

Good point... if you don't want to talk about recruiting, you can always just not click on the thread!:D IMHO, the more I hear of Wall's prospects and the more I see of Bledsoe, I'd almost just rather get Bledsoe. The way he plays reminds of Wall a little bit, albeit without QUITE the same level of freak athleticism and length. However, he looks like he plays within himself and has great pure PG instincts, perhaps more so than Wall, and from what I hear he has a great attitude and is almost reverent of Duke. Don't get me wrong - I would love to have an undeniable NBA-caliber athlete on the roster (Wall) and I don't think his being a one-and-done would be an issue given that we have a highly touted PG coming in the year after, but it's starting to sound less and less feasible.

I will be extremely happy if we land either guy though, for reasons already stated by others regarding our guard depth and lack of a true PG... and also because I think it's important for Nolan Smith's development. I realllly hope that in the long run, we let Nolan get back to the wing and just turn him loose. He was an electrifying, explosive scorer in HS, and I think he could really strive as a slasher here. He's been great sport filling in at PG, but if you watch how he moves when he's trying to be the quarterback, he's much less effective than when he's an energy guy on the wing. He's very deliberate with the ball, almost hunched over, he doesn't really look to attack the lane, and he isn't great at delivering passes right when they need to be delivered (i.e. just as a player pops open off a screen, rather than several seconds later). I only point this out because I believe if he eventually gets back on the wing with his old attack-the-rim mentality, he can regain some of his confidence and swagger and become an elite player on this level.

Plus, just think about how much fun to watch a team would be with Scheyer and Bledsoe/Wall splitting time at the point, Henderson (hopefully!), Elliott and Nolan slashing from the wings, Singler/LT/Ryan Kelly filling the lanes and creating mismatches at forward, and the MPs running trailer at the 5... sounds like a recipe for the type of run-and-gun, blow people out Duke team we haven't seen for a few years! Fingers crossed. Oh, and GTHC.

-jk
03-06-2009, 04:32 PM
I've seen some form of this comment about 143 times: "if Wall is a one-year type of guy, then I just don't want him at Duke at all."

I'll tell you when I learned my lesson about taking that position. I said it about Carlos Boozer. We all know how that turned out. Since then I've managed to keep my mouth shut, at least in this one way.

I trust Mike Krzyzewski and his people to get player personnel. They're working on infinitely more information than anyone on this board.

There you go again. Injecting a rational opinion into a recruiting thread. ;)

-jk

dgoore97
03-08-2009, 11:48 PM
Anybody heard anything after the weekend?

dgoore97
03-09-2009, 11:37 AM
just adding this from the rivals front page, wonder if it means K is not optimistic:

"The Duke coaching staff has been very active on the recruiting front for the class of 2009 as of late. With John Wall still serving as the primary target, Mike Krzyzewski and his staff realize landing the nation's No. 1 rated prospect will be a difficult task. Consequently, they have kept their eyes on the other top two uncommitted point guards in the class - Eric Bledsoe and Darius Smith."

quickgtp
03-09-2009, 10:08 PM
Scout.com has a premium article stating which school John Wall has as number 1, and that an announcement date will be coming soon. A friend of mine is saying that it is Baylor, but he didn't send me the information. Can anyone verify this on the scout site?

IMO, we are wasting our time with this kid. I have a strong feeling he will end up at Baylor and something certainly doesn't sound right there. We need to offer Bledsoe ASAP. He is a legit PG and can really help the Duke team next year!

BD80
03-09-2009, 10:52 PM
... IMO, we are wasting our time with this kid. ... We need to offer Bledsoe ASAP. ...

Who we? What time has the coaching staff invested? Perhaps you have wasted time posting about "this kid." You could stop.

What information do you have that the staff is in any way altering its pursuit of Bledsoe due to Wall?

I enjoy the prospect of John coming to Duke. I also enjoy the prospect of Eric coming.

I recommend you sit back and enjoy. Unless you want to be one that gets to say: "I told you we shouldn't have wasted our time." I think posters like that are often ignored.

yancem
03-09-2009, 11:21 PM
Scout.com has a premium article stating which school John Wall has as number 1, and that an announcement date will be coming soon. A friend of mine is saying that it is Baylor, but he didn't send me the information. Can anyone verify this on the scout site?

IMO, we are wasting our time with this kid. I have a strong feeling he will end up at Baylor and something certainly doesn't sound right there. We need to offer Bledsoe ASAP. He is a legit PG and can really help the Duke team next year!

Umm, Bledsoe hasn't qualified academically yet, so chances of him playing for Duke at this point aren't any better than Wall. Why not let the coaches corry about how they manage their recruiting schedule!

Greg_Newton
03-09-2009, 11:50 PM
What information do you have that the staff is in any way altering its pursuit of Bledsoe due to Wall?

I would love to see John Wall at Duke, but I also think that was a fair point to raise. I doubt that Bledsoe is completely naive to the connection between his lack of an offer from Duke and our continued pursuit of Wall (unless his academic issues really are the ONLY obstacle, which I would be somewhat skeptical of), and it is entirely possible that the situation could negatively affect our prospects with Bledsoe if it drags on too long. My view is that it would be very, very good to get Wall, very good to get Bledsoe, and very bad to get neither.

That said, who knows what is really going on with either of them. For all we know, Wall is about to commit to Duke and Bledsoe is about to fail his last semester and it's a moot point.

shoutingncu
03-10-2009, 12:02 AM
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/13972710

dukeballer2294
03-10-2009, 12:17 AM
haha ^^^ well i guess were on to... Erik Bledsoe!

gotham devil
03-10-2009, 12:18 AM
That said, who knows what is really going on with either of them. For all we know, Wall is about to commit to Duke and Bledsoe is about to fail his last semester and it's a moot point.

Newton,

When did Beckwith and Clifton allow Wall to meet with Coach Krzyzewski and formally receive an offer?

Greg_Newton
03-10-2009, 12:25 AM
Gotham - you're right, I suppose that would be way too much to ask of them. My point was mainly that we really have no idea what goes on behind the scenes... as evidenced by that link.

I swear, Memphis shouldn't be eligible for the NCAA tournament next year, as they really in no way resemble a true college basketball program. It reminds me of one of those shady little HS "prep academies" whose roster changes throughout the year and happens to have an AAU coach for a principal - just somewhere to coast through for a year and promote yourself until you move to the next level. I suppose it's a smart career move for some kids within the current system, but man...

BlueintheFace
03-10-2009, 12:37 AM
Hit the books Erik

SupaDave
03-10-2009, 09:36 AM
Gotham - you're right, I suppose that would be way too much to ask of them. My point was mainly that we really have no idea what goes on behind the scenes... as evidenced by that link.

I swear, Memphis shouldn't be eligible for the NCAA tournament next year, as they really in no way resemble a true college basketball program. It reminds me of one of those shady little HS "prep academies" whose roster changes throughout the year and happens to have an AAU coach for a principal - just somewhere to coast through for a year and promote yourself until you move to the next level. I suppose it's a smart career move for some kids within the current system, but man...

Don't be mad at the kids - be mad at the system.

quickgtp
03-10-2009, 09:41 AM
Who we? What time has the coaching staff invested? Perhaps you have wasted time posting about "this kid." You could stop.

What information do you have that the staff is in any way altering its pursuit of Bledsoe due to Wall?

I enjoy the prospect of John coming to Duke. I also enjoy the prospect of Eric coming.

I recommend you sit back and enjoy. Unless you want to be one that gets to say: "I told you we shouldn't have wasted our time." I think posters like that are often ignored.

Any time that the coaching staff has invested on Wall is time that they could be using on another prospect such as Bledsoe. Perhaps you have wasted time reading AND responding to my post.

If you didn't notice I was asking a question, yet you come back to me with one. Nice.

I don't know how you are enjoying the "prospect" of John Wall coming to Duke because there hasn't been much of anything hinting that he is even considering it.

I recommend you sit back and stop being so critical of other people's posts. If I was so ignored why did you respond then?

-jk
03-10-2009, 10:01 AM
Folks, let's lay off the personal stuff and stick to the topic at hand.

Please.

-jk

SupaDave
03-10-2009, 10:20 AM
Annnnnnd back to Wall.

I have to admit - Memphis is VERY attractive. One of my best friends is a chiropractor in Memphis and when he says that Memphis is the biggest show in town - he means it. Why? He's a Univ. of Tenn. grad.

Don't forget that while Duke has a history of excellence, Memphis has a different kind of history and offers a recruit something totally different.

You can play in the house that Penny built in the city where he himself was not only shot and robbed but also at the school where academic setbacks didn't keep Hardaway away from the league - or endorsements (It's me Lil' Penny!).

BUT if Tyreke Evans and his LACK of a jump shot decide to stay at Memphis for one more year - everything changes. Evans has reason to stay as well - they'll be loaded next year and I'm not so sure that Evans is ready for the next level. It's something to watch.

Supa 'I just thought of making Lil' Penny my avatar' Dave

DevilCastDownfromDurham
03-10-2009, 10:48 AM
Memphis does indeed offer "$omething" different.

I've been extremely enthusiastic about Wall coming to Duke, because I assumed that decision would indicate a desire to be part of a team and to spend at least a year working to become a grown man, rather than a gifted adolescent. A decision to go to Memphis would say something very different about his character.

Duke (and UNC, and many other programs) are like vitamins, while Memphis is candy. I haven't given up on Wall making a grown-up decision to surround himself with coaches, teachers, and an environment that will help him grow. But if he decides on the empty calories so be it.

SupaDave
03-10-2009, 11:05 AM
Memphis does indeed offer "$omething" different.

I've been extremely enthusiastic about Wall coming to Duke, because I assumed that decision would indicate a desire to be part of a team and to spend at least a year working to become a grown man, rather than a gifted adolescent. A decision to go to Memphis would say something very different about his character.

Duke (and UNC, and many other programs) are like vitamins, while Memphis is candy. I haven't given up on Wall making a grown-up decision to surround himself with coaches, teachers, and an environment that will help him grow. But if he decides on the empty calories so be it.

Derrick Rose pretty much negates this whole comment.

Rose chose Memphis because the fact that the school's director of student-athlete development Rod Strickland had 17 years of experience in the NBA and could mentor him. Rose switched to #23, unable to wear his customary #25 because that number was retired in honor of Penny Hardaway.

Kedsy
03-10-2009, 11:17 AM
Memphis does indeed offer "$omething" different.

I've been extremely enthusiastic about Wall coming to Duke, because I assumed that decision would indicate a desire to be part of a team and to spend at least a year working to become a grown man, rather than a gifted adolescent. A decision to go to Memphis would say something very different about his character.

Duke (and UNC, and many other programs) are like vitamins, while Memphis is candy. I haven't given up on Wall making a grown-up decision to surround himself with coaches, teachers, and an environment that will help him grow. But if he decides on the empty calories so be it.

Oh, come on. Putting aside your suggestion of a payoff, a decision to go to Memphis says almost nothing about his character. He's not planning to stay at school for more than a year, so the decision would presumably be based solely on basketball and getting along with the coaches and players.

If he chooses to go to Memphis it means: (a) he likes Coach Calipari and believes Calipari can help his game get ready for the League (and don't say this means he has poor character or judgment; Coach K is amazing, but he's not the only coach in America that can help a player's game improve -- personally I don't think Calipari's a particularly good coach, but he has players in the NBA who seem to be doing reasonably well); (b) he thinks he'll be comfortable playing with other athletic freshmen and sophomores like himself; and (c) he thinks that Memphis with Henry and Cousins and maybe Evans has the best chance among the teams he is considering to win the national title.

I love Duke, but the suggestion that a kid is a bad person just because he decides to go somewhere else makes me a little bit ill.

SupaDave
03-10-2009, 11:24 AM
Oh, come on. Putting aside your suggestion of a payoff, a decision to go to Memphis says almost nothing about his character. He's not planning to stay at school for more than a year, so the decision would presumably be based solely on basketball and getting along with the coaches and players.

If he chooses to go to Memphis it means: (a) he likes Coach Calipari and believes Calipari can help his game get ready for the League (and don't say this means he has poor character or judgment; Coach K is amazing, but he's not the only coach in America that can help a player's game improve -- personally I don't think Calipari's a particularly good coach, but he has players in the NBA who seem to be doing reasonably well); (b) he thinks he'll be comfortable playing with other athletic freshmen and sophomores like himself; and (c) he thinks that Memphis with Henry and Cousins and maybe Evans has the best chance among the teams he is considering to win the national title.

I love Duke, but the suggestion that a kid is a bad person just because he decides to go somewhere else makes me a little bit ill.

Well said...

DevilCastDownfromDurham
03-10-2009, 12:11 PM
Not saying he's a bad person at all, I've never met him and wouldn't presume to judge. Just saying that choosing to go to a basketball factory indicates that he's only interested in basketball, not buying in to any type of long-term "family" of the type that K, Roy, etc. work to develop.

There's no shame in saying "I don't care about school, just CTC" (as 'Sheed was fond of saying). Some kids just want to go to the NBA ASAP because they need the money and/or being part of something larger than themselves just isn't that important to them. That doesn't make them bad people, just bad fits for Duke. Choosing a factory like Memphis would be a clear indicator that what Duke has to offer isn't what he's looking for. Bad fit, not bad person.

Reddevil
03-10-2009, 12:12 PM
Don't be mad at the kids - be mad at the system.

Like it or not, Coach Cal is taking advantage of the current system brilliantly. Memphis is in a conference that they will dominate every year. He has created a program tailored to the one and done kids. This will attract many top 10 prospects each year. As long as the rules stay as they are, Memphis will be a powerful fixture in the polls, and NCAA tournament. Young men who decide to go this route are not flawed at all. It is seen as a reasonable means to a desired end with national exposure to boot.

Unfortunately, success breeds imitation, so this strategy will crop up in other programs. As stated many times before, the NCAA, NBA, and the Union really need to get together and make a new plan. It is in everyone’s best interest to let kids go pro out of high school, but if they commit to a University, it should be for at least two years. Rules can be adapted for those who declare for the NBA, but don’t get drafted, or 18 year olds can be treated like the adults that they are legally supposed to be and just deal with the consequences.

Until/unless this happens, the spirit of collegiate athletics will be tarnished. A major factor in being a fan of a place like Duke, and many other fine programs, is the underlying belief that there is yet some “purity” left in competition. I am not naďve. I am just saying that collegiate sports may be the last bastion capable of taking the high road. Cooperation is needed from the Association though, and didn’t Stern and most of the player reps get degrees? Come on guys – make it happen! Meanwhile, check out Duke Mr. Wall, you just may fall in love with the place.;)

SupaDave
03-10-2009, 12:38 PM
Not saying he's a bad person at all, I've never met him and wouldn't presume to judge. Just saying that choosing to go to a basketball factory indicates that he's only interested in basketball, not buying in to any type of long-term "family" of the type that K, Roy, etc. work to develop.

There's no shame in saying "I don't care about school, just CTC" (as 'Sheed was fond of saying). Some kids just want to go to the NBA ASAP because they need the money and/or being part of something larger than themselves just isn't that important to them. That doesn't make them bad people, just bad fits for Duke. Choosing a factory like Memphis would be a clear indicator that what Duke has to offer isn't what he's looking for. Bad fit, not bad person.

I'm just saying...

Today, the University of Memphis is one of Tennessee's three comprehensive doctoral-extensive institutions of higher learning. Situated in a park-like setting in east Memphis, it is the flagship university of the Tennessee Board of Regents system. The university awards more than 3,000 degrees annually.

With an enrollment of approximately 21,000 students, the University of Memphis has 25 Chairs of Excellence and five state-approved Centers of Excellence.

The university maintains the Journalism and Public Relations department, Center for Earthquake Research and Information (CERI), Cecil C. Humphreys School of Law, Loewenberg School of Nursing, FedEx Institute of Technology and the Institute of Egyptian Art and Archaeology. Its mathematics department has more Erdos number 1 mathematicians than any other research institution in the world.

SupaDave
03-10-2009, 12:41 PM
Like it or not, Coach Cal is taking advantage of the current system brilliantly. Memphis is in a conference that they will dominate every year. He has created a program tailored to the one and done kids. This will attract many top 10 prospects each year. As long as the rules stay as they are, Memphis will be a powerful fixture in the polls, and NCAA tournament. Young men who decide to go this route are not flawed at all. It is seen as a reasonable means to a desired end with national exposure to boot.

Unfortunately, success breeds imitation, so this strategy will crop up in other programs. As stated many times before, the NCAA, NBA, and the Union really need to get together and make a new plan. It is in everyone’s best interest to let kids go pro out of high school, but if they commit to a University, it should be for at least two years. Rules can be adapted for those who declare for the NBA, but don’t get drafted, or 18 year olds can be treated like the adults that they are legally supposed to be and just deal with the consequences.

Until/unless this happens, the spirit of collegiate athletics will be tarnished. A major factor in being a fan of a place like Duke, and many other fine programs, is the underlying belief that there is yet some “purity” left in competition. I am not naďve. I am just saying that collegiate sports may be the last bastion capable of taking the high road. Cooperation is needed from the Association though, and didn’t Stern and most of the player reps get degrees? Come on guys – make it happen! Meanwhile, check out Duke Mr. Wall, you just may fall in love with the place.;)

Don't know how long you've been around college basketball but things have been pretty sleezy for a VERY long time. Go do some research on UNLV, Michigan, and the words "Point shaving"...

DevilCastDownfromDurham
03-10-2009, 01:32 PM
I'm just saying...

Today, the University of Memphis is one of Tennessee's three comprehensive doctoral-extensive institutions of higher learning. Situated in a park-like setting in east Memphis, it is the flagship university of the Tennessee Board of Regents system. The university awards more than 3,000 degrees annually.

With an enrollment of approximately 21,000 students, the University of Memphis has 25 Chairs of Excellence and five state-approved Centers of Excellence.

The university maintains the Journalism and Public Relations department, Center for Earthquake Research and Information (CERI), Cecil C. Humphreys School of Law, Loewenberg School of Nursing, FedEx Institute of Technology and the Institute of Egyptian Art and Archaeology. Its mathematics department has more Erdos number 1 mathematicians than any other research institution in the world.

Memphis is a fine school. The basketball program has, IMO, an extremely tenuous relationship with that fine school. Cal has basically declared his program as the place to go if you don't want to engage with a university and you don't want to stay for a nanosecond longer than necessary.

Think about Michigan in the Fab 5 era. Michigan is a "Public Ivy" and a really, really good school, but CWebb (although he was and is very smart and from an upper-class background) didn't go there for pre-med. It doesn't make Michigan a bad school or CWebb a bad guy. But some folks want to join a program with long-term relationships (JWill, Elton, Luol) even if they jump to the NBA they buy in for the time that they are there. Other folks are in college because of the 1-year rule and have no desire to do anything but put their head down and get to the NBA.

Both approaches are fine, but they are very different. Cal is building his program around one school of thought and K is building around the other. Since both have been very public about what they expect, choosing one or the other makes a statement about what experience is desired. A guy that wants one probably wouldn't be happy in the other and probably wouldn't be a good fit for the program either.

ice-9
03-10-2009, 01:50 PM
Isn't Michigan a private school?

Indoor66
03-10-2009, 01:52 PM
Isn't Michigan a private school?

No. It is a public university (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Michigan) as opposed to the University of Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Of_Pennsylvania).

brsett
03-10-2009, 02:18 PM
I have no love for Coach Calipari, but he has only done good for Memphis graduation rates. He actually makes the players go to class, which is more than many coaches require -- particularly at the much loved mid-majors. Again, I'm no fan of Calipari, but there is this . . .

From http://gotigersgo.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/calipari_john00.html:
But, the rise of Tiger basketball is more than wins and losses in the Calipari era. The program's bounce back is also evident in the graduation of its student-athletes, the improvement of facilities and the flocking of fans to support their Tigers.

Much like he did at UMass when his players graduated at nearly 80 percent, Calipari is doing the same at Memphis. Fifteen of the last 18 seniors that have come through the Tiger program have earned their bachelor's degrees. All three 2008-09 seniors -- Antonio Anderson, Robert Dozier and Chance McGrady -- are on schedule to graduate, and junior Shawn Taggart could graduate following the 2009 spring semester. Those graduates under Calipari have their cap-and-gown photographs hanging in the men's basketball office.

Furthermore, Calipari -- with the help of the university administration -- is reaching out to former Tigers to come back to campus and finish their degrees. Andre Turner, affectionately known to Tiger Nation as "The Little General," went through graduation ceremonies in August 2008. Chris Garner and Cedric Henderson also took advantage of Calipari's offer to return and received their degrees in 2008.


Memphis is a fine school. The basketball program has, IMO, an extremely tenuous relationship with that fine school. Cal has basically declared his program as the place to go if you don't want to engage with a university and you don't want to stay for a nanosecond longer than necessary.

Think about Michigan in the Fab 5 era. Michigan is a "Public Ivy" and a really, really good school, but CWebb (although he was and is very smart and from an upper-class background) didn't go there for pre-med. It doesn't make Michigan a bad school or CWebb a bad guy. But some folks want to join a program with long-term relationships (JWill, Elton, Luol) even if they jump to the NBA they buy in for the time that they are there. Other folks are in college because of the 1-year rule and have no desire to do anything but put their head down and get to the NBA.

Both approaches are fine, but they are very different. Cal is building his program around one school of thought and K is building around the other. Since both have been very public about what they expect, choosing one or the other makes a statement about what experience is desired. A guy that wants one probably wouldn't be happy in the other and probably wouldn't be a good fit for the program either.

SupaDave
03-10-2009, 03:15 PM
Memphis is a fine school. The basketball program has, IMO, an extremely tenuous relationship with that fine school. Cal has basically declared his program as the place to go if you don't want to engage with a university and you don't want to stay for a nanosecond longer than necessary.

Think about Michigan in the Fab 5 era. Michigan is a "Public Ivy" and a really, really good school, but CWebb (although he was and is very smart and from an upper-class background) didn't go there for pre-med. It doesn't make Michigan a bad school or CWebb a bad guy. But some folks want to join a program with long-term relationships (JWill, Elton, Luol) even if they jump to the NBA they buy in for the time that they are there. Other folks are in college because of the 1-year rule and have no desire to do anything but put their head down and get to the NBA.

Both approaches are fine, but they are very different. Cal is building his program around one school of thought and K is building around the other. Since both have been very public about what they expect, choosing one or the other makes a statement about what experience is desired. A guy that wants one probably wouldn't be happy in the other and probably wouldn't be a good fit for the program either.


What's funny about this is that Memphis has only had TWO players under Coach Cal be "one and done" - Shawne Williams (who had some issues) and Derrick Rose. And only THREE All-Americans (Carney, Rose, Roberts) - two of them 3 year+ players. Sounds like a regular factory to me!

JDev
03-10-2009, 03:23 PM
What's funny about this is that Memphis has only had TWO players under Coach Cal be "one and done" - Shawne Williams (who had some issues) and Derrick Rose. And only THREE All-Americans (Carney, Rose, Roberts) - two of them 3 year+ players. Sounds like a regular factory to me!

Dajuan Wagner was a one-and-done there as I recall, not that that changes your point.

FireOgilvie
03-10-2009, 03:43 PM
What's funny about this is that Memphis has only had TWO players under Coach Cal be "one and done" - Shawne Williams (who had some issues) and Derrick Rose. And only THREE All-Americans (Carney, Rose, Roberts) - two of them 3 year+ players. Sounds like a regular factory to me!

True, but he's about to have 4 more (if Wall goes there and Evans leaves as expected). Keep in mind that the rule about not being drafted from HS is only 4 years old.

SupaDave
03-10-2009, 04:01 PM
True, but he's about to have 4 more (if Wall goes there and Evans leaves as expected). Keep in mind that the rule about not being drafted from HS is only 4 years old.

Well you keep in mind that Duke ALREADY has THAT number of one and dones. So your point is?