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cbnaylor
05-12-2009, 12:26 PM
The information about Wall having it down to Kentucky and Miami is inaccurate. Just letting you know.

Kedsy
05-12-2009, 01:21 PM
The information about Wall having it down to Kentucky and Miami is inaccurate. Just letting you know.

Pretty much every report is inaccurate, isn't it? Based on Mr. Wall's history, I would surmise we're not getting any actual information unless and until the John Wall camp wants us to have it, and when that comes it will be in the form of some sort of formal announcement, either by John or by Clifton.

NYDukie
05-12-2009, 01:44 PM
Pretty much every report is inaccurate, isn't it? Based on Mr. Wall's history, I would surmise we're not getting any actual information unless and until the John Wall camp wants us to have it, and when that comes it will be in the form of some sort of formal announcement, either by John or by Clifton.

As much as I enjoy reading the constant Wall thread, I've finally become numb to daily rumors of "where he is leaning?", "what is list is now down to?" and "that 'X team' should receive a commitment in the next few days". And to that "numbness", I say thank god.

Wherever Wall goes, he goes. I want him to come to Duke just like many of us do (I've become comfortable with the notion that I don't think he woujld be a headache) because I think they would be a final four favorite next year and on paper, the team that would give Kansas a run based on all the early opinions. But I will not lose any sleep nor feel the "sky" is falling for Duke if he doesn't.

roywhite
05-12-2009, 01:46 PM
The information about Wall having it down to Kentucky and Miami is inaccurate. Just letting you know.

Glad to hear it. The reason I keep tuning in to this soap opera is that Duke seems (to me) to be a good, logical choice for Mr. Wall. Great coach, excellent complementary talent, close to home, no problem with scholarship numbers or roster spot, popular with Mom and Clifton, etc., etc.

G man
05-12-2009, 02:09 PM
I looked over the last five pages of this thread and did not see this posted. This pretty much sums up what we have all been thinking. Read below the article about Patterson. Seems like clifton is on our side


http://www.aseaofblue.com/2009/5/12/872847/the-big-blue-daily-mail-news-for

Oriole Way
05-12-2009, 02:19 PM
From my uninformed vantage point, Duke seems like such a no-brainer decision for Wall. He gets to be close to his mom, his closest advisor seems to want him at Duke, he has a chance for a national title, he gets the most exposure he could possibly get on national TV, he'll play against the best competition in the best basketball conference in the country, he'd go to one of the most prestigious academic schools in the country (which crushes UK in every way imaginable - except for coeds and Ashley Judd), and he gets to play with one of his AAU teammates who I imagine he would be comfortable with.

I'll be really scratching my head if he passes all that up.

Franzez
05-12-2009, 03:09 PM
From my uninformed vantage point, Duke seems like such a no-brainer decision for Wall. He gets to be close to his mom, his closest advisor seems to want him at Duke, he has a chance for a national title, he gets the most exposure he could possibly get on national TV, he'll play against the best competition in the best basketball conference in the country, he'd go to one of the most prestigious academic schools in the country (which crushes UK in every way imaginable - except for coeds and Ashley Judd), and he gets to play with one of his AAU teammates who I imagine he would be comfortable with.

I'll be really scratching my head if he passes all that up.
Coach K wasnt in it from the beginning like Caliparri has been with Wall.

Also the DDM system is more appealing to recruits

Skitzle
05-12-2009, 03:16 PM
Coach K wasnt in it from the beginning like Caliparri has been with Wall.

Also the DDM system is more appealing to recruits

DDM?

roywhite
05-12-2009, 03:20 PM
Coach K wasnt in it from the beginning like Caliparri has been with Wall.

Also the DDM system is more appealing to recruits


Your first point seems reasonable.

I'm not sure about the second point. By DDM, I assume you mean the Dribble Drive Motion offense that Calipari used at Memphis (adopted from some high school coach if I recall). I find it hard to believe that Calipari would surpass Coach K in "chalk talk". Coach K could probably discourse at length about the offensive patterns that the USA team used, and some of the things he has done at Duke (where having a great passing PG would certainly help).

Calipari is a very capable coach, but does he really have an edge in your opinion over Coach K in presenting his offensive schemes?

geraldsneighbor
05-12-2009, 03:21 PM
DDM?

Dribble Drive Motion offense.

Franzez
05-12-2009, 03:46 PM
Your first point seems reasonable.

I'm not sure about the second point. By DDM, I assume you mean the Dribble Drive Motion offense that Calipari used at Memphis (adopted from some high school coach if I recall). I find it hard to believe that Calipari would surpass Coach K in "chalk talk". Coach K could probably discourse at length about the offensive patterns that the USA team used, and some of the things he has done at Duke (where having a great passing PG would certainly help).

Calipari is a very capable coach, but does he really have an edge in your opinion over Coach K in presenting his offensive schemes?
He has an edge considering John Wall isn't a pass first PG, and the DDM allows him to attack the basket much more and run the court much more rather than setting up the offense from a half court set.

The DDM is a much more up tempo style of basketball that showcases the PG which is what interests PG prospects about the offense.

Coach K is a great x's and o's coach but we have to face reality that in this era there is a majority of recruits who want to play in an undisciplined up tempo offense rather than a highly disciplined half court offense.

Franzez
05-12-2009, 03:47 PM
DDM?
The Dribble Drive Motion

Its the offensive set Caliparri installed at Memphis about 5 years ago, and now is going to install at Kentucky.

Chicago 1995
05-12-2009, 03:59 PM
Coach K is a great x's and o's coach but we have to face reality that in this era there is a majority of recruits who want to play in an undisciplined up tempo offense rather than a highly disciplined half court offense.

Again, not one to defend, but I'd note that the last time we had a dynamic, scoring point guard who could run an uptempo attack, we were one of the leaders in scoring nationally.

Of course, John Wall was 13 when that happened.

We've got pieces of our offensive sets that are a lot like the AASAA and there's a similarity to what is featured by a lot of team in international play and the AASAA, as well. We tried to run something similar two years ago, but scrapped it because it didn't fit with our personnel. When our offense was really clicking the last two years, it was when Gerald was getting in the lane consistently and making the defense defend penetration. That's no different from the theory behind Cal's AASAA.

There certainly was a three or four year stretch where we were really slow and really rigid offensively, but it's not like that's all Coach K has ever done, and we've without question evolved away from those periods of setting 27 screens for a jumpshooter.

roywhite
05-12-2009, 04:08 PM
He has an edge considering John Wall isn't a pass first PG, and the DDM allows him to attack the basket much more and run the court much more rather than setting up the offense from a half court set.

The DDM is a much more up tempo style of basketball that showcases the PG which is what interests PG prospects about the offense.

Coach K is a great x's and o's coach but we have to face reality that in this era there is a majority of recruits who want to play in an undisciplined up tempo offense rather than a highly disciplined half court offense.

Not sure I'd agree with your analysis of Duke's offense, or that Coach K would not run an uptempo offense. He adapts to the talent he has; in our best offenses, we had Hurley as a pass-first PG, but also William Avery, Jason Williams, and Chris Duhon as PG's who pressed tempo and looked for the drive when it was available.

In a recruiting situation, perception is what matters, so perhaps Wall does prefer what he's heard from Coach Calipari. But I believe Coach K would utilize Wall's talents as well, or better, and could also present that concept well (which emphasizes the importance of face-to-face contact).

Kedsy
05-12-2009, 04:20 PM
Your first point seems reasonable.

I'm not sure about the second point. By DDM, I assume you mean the Dribble Drive Motion offense that Calipari used at Memphis (adopted from some high school coach if I recall). I find it hard to believe that Calipari would surpass Coach K in "chalk talk". Coach K could probably discourse at length about the offensive patterns that the USA team used, and some of the things he has done at Duke (where having a great passing PG would certainly help).

Calipari is a very capable coach, but does he really have an edge in your opinion over Coach K in presenting his offensive schemes?

I'm with Roy on this, but I don't really agree with the first point either. If how long a coach has been "in it" was the deciding factor, this circus would have shut down some time ago. I'm not saying I have any idea where Mr. Wall is headed, but IMO length of relationship doesn't sound like the critical issue.

Franzez
05-12-2009, 04:59 PM
I'm with Roy on this, but I don't really agree with the first point either. If how long a coach has been "in it" was the deciding factor, this circus would have shut down some time ago. I'm not saying I have any idea where Mr. Wall is headed, but IMO length of relationship doesn't sound like the critical issue.
This circus would have shut down about 3 months ago when he commited and signed with Memphis.

Caliparri leaving changed things, he really liked the school(Memphis) and the coach(Caliparri) and the offense along with his role(DDM).

All signs pointed to a commitment.

He was all set until Caliparri left Memphis and went to Kentucky, a school Wall had long ago eliminated and this process has seemed like Caliparri now selling Wall on Kentucky and Wall not yet ready to bite.

gotham devil
05-12-2009, 05:04 PM
2 things:
1) Zagoria stands behind his sources.
2) Vance Walberg invented the "dribble-drive" offense.

FireOgilvie
05-12-2009, 05:18 PM
2 things:
1) Zagoria stands behind his sources.
2) Vance Walberg invented the "dribble-drive" offense.

That doesn't mean his sources aren't lying/know what they are talking about.

Greg_Newton
05-12-2009, 05:33 PM
Interesting quotes from Clifton... he says it's down to Duke, UK and Miami, he flat out says he will not be Wall's agent, he says they are fully looking into the potential Bledsoe issue, and he states that Duke definitely has the best shot at a NC from Wall's 3 options.

If anything, this reinforces what some folks here have been saying about not listening to blogs that quote "anonymous sources". From the current and actual firsthand quotes from Clifton, Duke seems to be in as good of a position as it's ever been to land Wall.


Wall has confirmed that he's still considering the Wildcats after they accepted Bledsoe's commitment, but, Clifton said, "The knee-jerk reaction, and justifiably so, would be to take a minute of pause to look further into it. Because I can't imagine, to get a player like Eric Bledsoe, that [Kentucky] would tell him, we're going to recruit over you immediately and not play you very much as a freshman.

"There had to be some assurances made to him about being able to share the ball, that would inspire him to commit despite the possibility of John still coming there. ... So we have to revisit that situation and make sure it's going to be great to have two of the top four point guards on the roster at once."

By revisiting it, Clifton said hopes to talk to Calipari as well as Bledsoe's camp, to see what their expectations are for next season at Kentucky. (Bledsoe has been quoted as saying that he and Wall can coexist on the court, and that, "I'm going to play my position either if [Wall does go to UK] or he don't.") Said Clifton, "It's definitely not a deal-breaker, but I'd be remiss in my duty as a guy that's helping John and his family if we don't explore it fully."

It has been speculated that Duke is Clifton's preferred destination for Wall, in part because of rumors that Clifton hopes to become Wall's agent next season, and Duke would be the place where he'd be best insulated from outside suitors. Clifton denied this to SI.com last month -- "I'll be in John's life in some capacity, but it won't be as his agent," he said -- but Clifton does, definitely, like Duke.

He cited the fact that the Blue Devils had a clear opening at the point-guard spot as a benefit, and said that, of the teams Wall was considering, Duke had the best chance of competing for a national title next season, a fact that he felt should not be taken lightly.

But I have to agree with poster a few down, I've become a bit numb to the rollercoaster ride by this point...

Franzez
05-12-2009, 05:38 PM
Interesting quotes from Clifton... he says it's down to Duke, UK and Miami, he flat out says he will not be Wall's agent, he says they are fully looking into the potential Bledsoe issue, and he states that Duke definitely has the best shot at a NC from Wall's 3 options.

If anything, this reinforces what some folks here have been saying about not listening to blogs that quote "anonymous sources". From the current and actual firsthand quotes from Clifton, Duke seems to be in as good of a position as it's ever been to land Wall.



But I have to agree with poster a few down, I've become a bit numb to the rollercoaster ride by this point...
I'm sorry but why would he, Dwon Clifton, an Asst Coach at Baylor be contacting Kentucky inquiring about their plans for recruits and their current players?

That doesn't add up to me at all.

I dont think Keith Booth would call Coach K and inquire about what role Ryan Kelly or Mason Plumlee will have at Duke.

hedgehog
05-12-2009, 05:43 PM
I'm sorry but why would he, Dwon Clifton, an Asst Coach at Baylor be contacting Kentucky inquiring about their plans for recruits and their current players?

Brian Clifton! Arggh!

Franzez
05-12-2009, 05:46 PM
Brian Clifton! Arggh!
Now I'm annoyed.

I've been hyped thinking this was Dwon Clifton leaning him towards Duke.:(

chrisheery
05-12-2009, 06:34 PM
Now I'm annoyed.

I've been hyped thinking this was Dwon Clifton leaning him towards Duke.:(

Seriously can't tell, are you kidding?

tbyers11
05-12-2009, 07:28 PM
He has an edge considering John Wall isn't a pass first PG, and the DDM allows him to attack the basket much more and run the court much more rather than setting up the offense from a half court set.

The DDM is a much more up tempo style of basketball that showcases the PG which is what interests PG prospects about the offense.

Coach K is a great x's and o's coach but we have to face reality that in this era there is a majority of recruits who want to play in an undisciplined up tempo offense rather than a highly disciplined half court offense.

Do you remember just at the beginning of the 2007-08 season when Coach K decided to run a modified form of Mike D'Antoni's 7 seconds and a shot offense? Greg was supposed to push the ball every possession. The wings would run-to-the corners in the fast break or secondary break. That was about as up-tempo and "undisciplined" as it gets.

If John Wall comes to Duke, I think the best use of his abilities would be a much more fast-paced offensive style than we saw last year. I believe this style really suits the rest of our personnel (minus Zoubek) as well. Coach K seems to tailor his offensive schemes every season to what best fits his personnel and I have no reason to believe that he is committed to a slower half court scheme.

BlueintheFace
05-12-2009, 07:28 PM
Si.com has the scoop.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luke_winn/05/12/decisions/index.html

It's Duke, Kentucky, and Miami

Kentucky is on thin ice, but not out of the equation.


advisor and former AAU coach, Brian Clifton, told SI.com on Monday that it would be "accurate" to assume that the race was now between Duke, Kentucky and Miami

geraldsneighbor
05-12-2009, 07:51 PM
Si.com has the scoop.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luke_winn/05/12/decisions/index.html

It's Duke, Kentucky, and Miami

Kentucky is on thin ice, but not out of the equation.

God who knows now. UK thought they were getting a commitment, Miami thinks they are getting one...maybe Duke quietly going along is a good sign.

weezie
05-12-2009, 08:10 PM
Golly gee, look at these 114 pages. This excitement and suspense is killing me.
Thank goodness I have the Red Wings to keep me occupied.
Somebody do me a favor, what game did JWall attend during this past season?

NYDukie
05-12-2009, 08:20 PM
Si.com has the scoop.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luke_winn/05/12/decisions/index.html

It's Duke, Kentucky, and Miami

Kentucky is on thin ice, but not out of the equation.

Doesn't this seem similar to the PP recruitment? Everyone thought he was coming to Duke and that UK was second while there was a third school hanging around (I tend to remember Florida but please clarify this please?), then out of the blue he surprised many and chose UK. Could it be this time that UK is the assumed leader with Duke second by most accounts with a third team hanging around (Miami with another state of Florida slant included).

Only this time, Duke comes out on top from left field??? Trying to put a good spin on this for us...LOL

Cameron
05-12-2009, 08:42 PM
Somebody do me a favor, what game did JWall attend during this past season?


I am 95 percent positive that John Wall was at the Virginia Tech game in Cameron. My seats were down in 19D (behind the bench) and, if I remember correctly, Wall was down in that area.

I'm not sure if he attended any other games or not.

JasonEvans
05-12-2009, 08:44 PM
I will be stunned if it is Miami. If the kid is going to go away from home, then I would think he would go to Kentucky. Why play on a team that will not be a title contender (or even a top 20 team) and a team that will not be on TV all that much when Top 10 Duke and Top 15 Kentucky are calling and you can be the piece that propels them to the top or at least close to it?

--Jason "this is getting kinda old, but I am glad we are still very, very much in it at this point" Evans

geraldsneighbor
05-12-2009, 08:53 PM
I am 95 percent positive that John Wall was at the Virginia Tech game in Cameron. My seats were down in 19D (behind the bench) and, if I remember correctly, Wall was down in that area.

I'm not sure if he attended any other games or not.

I thought he attended the UMiami game. Which would be interesting since said opponent blew a 19 point lead.

Cameron
05-12-2009, 09:11 PM
Like I said, I could be wrong. I just remember my cousin pointing out that John Wall was in attendance that night, but I never did see him for myself. I kept searching for him near the end, but never saw him.

I'm sure someone here knows for sure. You might be right, geralds.

Newton_14
05-12-2009, 09:11 PM
Based on the latest comments from Clifton, I feel good about our chances. Even though Wall kept 8 or 9 teams on his list, I think in reality it has been Duke and Kentucky for some time now with Miami possibly having a slight glimmer of hope.

With the stay close to home factor combined with Bledsoe to Kentucky factor, I feel really good about Duke's chances now. Many have felt Duke had little chance but this could end up being the Duke haters worst nightmare and Wall to Duke becomes reality.

That would significantly alter next seasons outlook. Keeping my fingers crossed!!

weezie
05-12-2009, 09:22 PM
Thank you, gentlemen.
Come on 'Caines! I want to go to Raleigh and eat bbq during the finals, not bos.

KrazyKfan
05-12-2009, 10:18 PM
It seems to me that Wall really wants to play for Coach Cal. He was about to commit to Memphis, then Cal left, and Kentucky instantly became a player.

Clifton, however, is really pushing Duke. It seems like Wall has little interest in going there, but Clifton has always liked Coach K and the Duke program and hated Roy Williams and UNC.

Miami is a wildcard. Maybe he likes the beach? Can't really figure out why anyone would want to go play a year of basketball at a football school.

calltheobvious
05-12-2009, 10:27 PM
Thank you, gentlemen.
Come on 'Caines! I want to go to Raleigh and eat bbq during the finals, not bos.

Weezie, it's not nearly as good as 'cue, but I'd be happy to make you some pierogies during the Finals here in PITTSBURGH;)

Let's go Pens!

Atlanta Duke
05-12-2009, 10:29 PM
Miami is a wildcard. Maybe he likes the beach? Can't really figure out why anyone would want to go play a year of basketball at a football school.

I take it you have never been to South Beach? :)

Chicago 1995
05-12-2009, 10:57 PM
I will be stunned if it is Miami. If the kid is going to go away from home, then I would think he would go to Kentucky. Why play on a team that will not be a title contender (or even a top 20 team) and a team that will not be on TV all that much when Top 10 Duke and Top 15 Kentucky are calling and you can be the piece that propels them to the top or at least close to it?

--Jason "this is getting kinda old, but I am glad we are still very, very much in it at this point" Evans


Might Miami be the compromise pick? Allegedly, John wants UK. Clifton and Mom lead toward Duke.

Miami sneaks in as a compromise?

Welcome2DaSlopes
05-12-2009, 11:04 PM
Might Miami be the compromise pick? Allegedly, John wants UK. Clifton and Mom lead toward Duke.

Miami sneaks in as a compromise?


Yea it does seem like Wall doesn't want to go to Duke.

1. Bledsoe signed to KY starter but limited PT
2. Duke is close to home Starter with lots of PT
There are alot of other reason's but i don't want to post it right now (lazy) srry

All signs point to duke but Wall hasn't said anything

weezie
05-12-2009, 11:07 PM
Weezie, it's not nearly as good as 'cue, but I'd be happy to make you some pierogies during the Finals here in PITTSBURGH;)

Let's go Pens!

Ehhh, been there, done that. ;)

Kedsy
05-12-2009, 11:15 PM
It seems to me that Wall really wants to play for Coach Cal. He was about to commit to Memphis, then Cal left, and Kentucky instantly became a player.

Clifton, however, is really pushing Duke. It seems like Wall has little interest in going there, but Clifton has always liked Coach K and the Duke program and hated Roy Williams and UNC.

Miami is a wildcard. Maybe he likes the beach? Can't really figure out why anyone would want to go play a year of basketball at a football school.

Does anyone remember early in the thread when everyone was sure it was Clifton who was keeping John Wall from visiting Duke? That there was no way the "handler" would let his charge enter a structured program like ours?

On another topic, why would you say something like "It seems like Wall has little interest in going [to Duke]"? What mind meld have you performed where this inside information was imparted to you?

-bdbd
05-12-2009, 11:22 PM
I will be stunned if it is Miami. If the kid is going to go away from home, then I would think he would go to Kentucky. Why play on a team that will not be a title contender (or even a top 20 team) and a team that will not be on TV all that much when Top 10 Duke and Top 15 Kentucky are calling and you can be the piece that propels them to the top or at least close to it?

--Jason "this is getting kinda old, but I am glad we are still very, very much in it at this point" Evans


Gotta agree with Jason again. No school is going to "win them all" in recruiting. But if you are in the final 3-4 of more top players than the other schools, generally, you're going to come out most years pretty well. If we've made a top-10 recruit's final-few list like this, I gotta believe that the coaches have done their job, and pretty well. Often the final decisions can come down to minor, uncontrollable things like gelling well (or not) with prospective teammates (Patterson) or falling head-over-heels for another school first (Monroe) or (lack of) proximity (Boynton).... But if you're frequently "up there" at the end, then you'll certainly win your share.

Just keep getting us into the group of leaders, coaches, and some will be coming our way soon enough.

BTW, Jason, don't know that I'd agree with KY being "top-15," given the turnover and relative youth. Maybe top-20. At any rate, I think we can agree he'll have his best shot at a National Championship, and probably max media exposure, playing in CIS just 30 minutes from home.

But I too can't wait for it to be over (once John picks Royal Blue and the Gothic Wonderland).... won't that be nice?!

-BDBD :D

FireOgilvie
05-12-2009, 11:40 PM
BTW, Jason, don't know that I'd agree with KY being "top-15," given the turnover and relative youth. Maybe top-20. At any rate, I think we can agree he'll have his best shot at a National Championship, and probably max media exposure, playing in CIS just 30 minutes from home.


I agree with everything else you say, but Kentucky is going to be more than a "top 20" team even if Wall doesn't go there. They're going to be loaded. If Wall ends up there, they're definitely a top 5 team. They'll also have more talent and depth than ANY team in the country. They'll have about 5 future NBA players on their roster. The question will be if they can come together as a team and beat the best veteran teams in the NCAA Tournament.

I think Wall would make Duke a top team as well (and I think it would be in his best interest to go there).

Greg_Newton
05-13-2009, 12:05 AM
I agree with everything else you say, but Kentucky is going to be more than a "top 20" team even if Wall doesn't go there. They're going to be loaded. If Wall ends up there, they're definitely a top 5 team. They'll also have more talent and depth than ANY team in the country. They'll have about 5 future NBA players on their roster. The question will be if they can come together as a team and beat the best veteran teams in the NCAA Tournament.

I think Wall would make Duke a top team as well (and I think it would be in his best interest to go there).

FWIW, Mr. Clifton clearly thinks Duke's team is superior to UK's independent of Wall (as per the SI article posted several times earlier).

Duke just seems like such a better choice on paper (in terms of pros and cons) than UK or Miami that it's borderline ridiculous. Makes you wonder what the most important factors in his decision are.

I suppose all of our priorities were a little different when we were 19...

Kedsy
05-13-2009, 12:21 AM
Duke just seems like such a better choice on paper (in terms of pros and cons) than UK or Miami that it's borderline ridiculous.

Borderline ridiculous? Only if you're wearing Duke Blue colored glasses (although it'd be really hard to tell those apart from Ky Blue colored glasses, if you were just looking at them, wouldn't it?). Without knowing the kid, I don't know how you could make such a sweeping statement.

FireOgilvie
05-13-2009, 12:54 AM
Borderline ridiculous? Only if you're wearing Duke Blue colored glasses (although it'd be really hard to tell those apart from Ky Blue colored glasses, if you were just looking at them, wouldn't it?). Without knowing the kid, I don't know how you could make such a sweeping statement.

I don't know if I can name a single pro for Miami outside of "beach/weather." There certainly aren't any pros when it comes to basketball (over Duke and UK), unless "minimal pressure to win" or "general apathy from fanbase" are important.


Duke pros:

1. Coach K - between the record, 3 national championships, and Olympic experience coaching NBA All-Stars to a gold medal, this is a pretty big one. Calipari is not Coach K. He has zero national championships. Haith is in the bottom half of ACC coaches, in my opinion. I think it would be nice for John Wall to be able to say, "I played for one of the greatest college coaches of all-time."
2. Minutes - Duke has zero true point guards and 3 guards on the team total. This is not even close to the case at UK, especially with top 5 PG Eric Bledsoe. Even Miami has more depth than Duke at guard.
3. ESPN/National TV every single game. UK is not on national TV as much as Duke. Miami is not even close. National exposure is huge.
4. Reputation - Duke has a reputation for putting out quality individuals that play great team basketball and don't get in trouble off the court.
5. Academics - This might not be important for John Wall (1 year and gone), but Duke is a top 10 school.
6. Style of play - Every Duke player except Zoubek is perfect for a fast-break running offense. Kentucky has multiple lumbering centers that will have to have to be constantly fed in the post.
7. Proximity to home - He has said this is important to him.
8. Chance at a national championship - Duke would have a very good shot at a national title. The same can be said for UK. Miami might have a shot at 3rd in the ACC.
9. Conference - Both Duke and Miami are in the ACC, the best basketball conference in the country (along with the Big East). Basketball is the 2nd most important sport in the SEC.


I'm sure there are multiple others that I am missing. UK has some pros as well, but I don't think the list is comparable to Duke's.

dukiedevil89
05-13-2009, 02:08 AM
Clearly, most articles are just speculating at this point because some say they think Duke is the lead, and some say they think Kentucky is.

I guess we, unfortunately, won't really know anything until John Wall makes his decision.

77devil
05-13-2009, 08:24 AM
I take it you have never been to South Beach? :)

And the locals refer to U of M as bikini U for a reason.

NYDukie
05-13-2009, 08:51 AM
Have to agree with some of the recent posters in that the more you read in between the lines, it appears Wall is looking for ways not to come to Duke. And this is contrary to the belief that it seemed initially that Clifton didn't want Wall to go to Duke but now seems to favor Duke while Wall seemed to like Duke.

As for the pros and cons of Duke verse UK, I will say that I personally believe that Duke offers more. However, if I am in Wall's shoes and not blinded by my Duke sunglasses, UK does offer many pros for a "one and done" prospect.

1. Wall gets to play for the coach he initially wanted to
2. If his initial preference was Memphis and at the time it seems Clifton was on board, why would distance and type of "university" be a factor? I'm from the NYC area but can someone tell me whether or not Memphis and Lexingston are both similar distances from Raleigh? To me, if they are both similar in distance from Raleigh, why would it matter? Miami on the other hand makes no sense to me.
3. Wall would still run the show at UK or Duke
4. Both "coaches" produce NBA players and have connections to the NBA
5. Either team would be players on the national scene in 2009-2010.
6. Both have NBA prospects as supporting cast members. One can argue that UK may have "potentially" more pro prospects than Duke next year.
7. And to me most importantly, why as a one and done player would he want to weigh himself down with academic responsibilities? At UK, I'm sure he could just coast and due the bare minimum, whereas at Duke, the bare minimum might be the equivalent of a solid course load at UK.

I would like Wall to come to Duke b/c I think he can make next year's team special at that Duke offers him many things but sometimes I wonder if the Duke angle by Wall is more out of respect for him mom and Clifton of late.

One last point, putting our disdain for UK aside, to think a lineup of Wall, Meeks (if he comes back or not), PP, Orton and Cousins with some good players off the bench won't be a national factor is being ignorant on our part. We criticize others for their dislike of Duke and not being objective in analyzing the Duke teams and if we wish not to be "stereotyped" as "we(fans) are better than everyone else" that many Duke fans are, we should be a bit more objective in our opinions of other teams. Now if you truly feel that way about UK's team next year, then fine, but my gut tells me that many just don't like UK and as result, feel they will not be good no matter who they have next year.

Indoor66
05-13-2009, 08:58 AM
2. If his initial preference was Memphis and at the time it seems Clifton was on board, why would distance and type of "university" be a factor? I'm from the NYC area but can someone tell me whether or not Memphis and Lexingston are both similar distances from Raleigh? To me, if they are both similar in distance from Raleigh, why would it matter? Miami on the other hand makes no sense to me.

Raleigh - Lexington = 475 miles

Raleigh - Memphis = 752 miles

Raleigh - Coral Gables = 806 miles

Raleigh - Duke = 25 miles

Ane that makes it 2,300 posts in this thread!

NYDukie
05-13-2009, 09:12 AM
Raleigh - Lexington = 475 miles

Raleigh - Memphis = 752 miles

Raleigh - Coral Gables = 806 miles

Raleigh - Duke = 25 miles

Ane that makes it 2,300 posts in this thread!

Thanks for the info. Just makes matters a bit more confusing as why if it seemed Memphis was the Wall lean w/ Calipari there, how come a UK lean has been dragged out. I know the quick answers will be that Duke came hard after him and has many things to offers, but it just makes this recruitment just that more confusing and a "must read" event...LOL

UrinalCake
05-13-2009, 09:22 AM
7. And to me most importantly, why as a one and done player would he want to weigh himself down with academic responsibilities?

I agree; at UK or Miami he could take just six credit hours in the fall to maintain eligibility, then not take any classes in the spring. At Duke he technically could still do this, but I doubt the program would allow him to. Not trying to discount his academic integrity or anything, but I think this has to be a strong factor in his decision.

Regarding UK's title chances, they will have a ton of talent but also will be adapting to a new coach, integrating several blue-chip freshmen, and probably learning an entirely new offensive system. Also they will be jettisoning between two and four current scholarship players. Duke will have a more stable, veteran lineup.

Kedsy
05-13-2009, 09:37 AM
I don't know if I can name a single pro for Miami outside of "beach/weather." There certainly aren't any pros when it comes to basketball (over Duke and UK), unless "minimal pressure to win" or "general apathy from fanbase" are important.

Duke pros:

1. Coach K - between the record, 3 national championships, and Olympic experience coaching NBA All-Stars to a gold medal, this is a pretty big one. Calipari is not Coach K. He has zero national championships. Haith is in the bottom half of ACC coaches, in my opinion. I think it would be nice for John Wall to be able to say, "I played for one of the greatest college coaches of all-time."
2. Minutes - Duke has zero true point guards and 3 guards on the team total. This is not even close to the case at UK, especially with top 5 PG Eric Bledsoe. Even Miami has more depth than Duke at guard.
3. ESPN/National TV every single game. UK is not on national TV as much as Duke. Miami is not even close. National exposure is huge.
4. Reputation - Duke has a reputation for putting out quality individuals that play great team basketball and don't get in trouble off the court.
5. Academics - This might not be important for John Wall (1 year and gone), but Duke is a top 10 school.
6. Style of play - Every Duke player except Zoubek is perfect for a fast-break running offense. Kentucky has multiple lumbering centers that will have to have to be constantly fed in the post.
7. Proximity to home - He has said this is important to him.
8. Chance at a national championship - Duke would have a very good shot at a national title. The same can be said for UK. Miami might have a shot at 3rd in the ACC.
9. Conference - Both Duke and Miami are in the ACC, the best basketball conference in the country (along with the Big East). Basketball is the 2nd most important sport in the SEC.


I'm sure there are multiple others that I am missing. UK has some pros as well, but I don't think the list is comparable to Duke's.


Look, I hope he comes to Duke, and unlike others I don't think anyone outside his inner circle has any feel for where he's leaning or what he's thinking.

That said, lists like the above are factors that you consider important and I can easily see a 19-year old kid thinking quite differently. Considering he was once publicly leaning toward Memphis, it seems clear that none of the above are critical factors, except maybe #2 (but don't kid yourself, he'll get all the minutes he wants wherever he goes -- he doesn't have to worry about Eric Bledsoe; Eric Bledsoe has to worry about him).

I'm not trying to argue that your points aren't valid. On the contrary, if I were a highly recruited point guard I would agree with most of them. But to say the list of pros and cons favors Duke so much it would be "borderline ridiculous" to pick anybody else is, frankly, borderline ridiculous (and I realize it wasn't FireOgilvie who originally said this). I think if you look at it objectively, you'd say that Duke and Kentucky are roughly equal in desirability, with Duke's biggest asset being proximity to his mother, and Kentucky's biggest asset the feeling of being the cool, hip, young guns with Wall and Cousins and the other newcomers.

gumbomoop
05-13-2009, 09:38 AM
One last point, putting our disdain for UK aside, to think a lineup of Wall, Meeks (if he comes back or not), PP, Orton and Cousins with some good players off the bench won't be a national factor is being ignorant on our part. We criticize others for their dislike of Duke and not being objective in analyzing the Duke teams and if we wish not to be "stereotyped" as "we(fans) are better than everyone else" that many Duke fans are, we should be a bit more objective in our opinions of other teams. Now if you truly feel that way about UK's team next year, then fine, but my gut tells me that many just don't like UK and as result, feel they will not be good no matter who they have next year.

I strongly agree with this, and would go even much further: with Wall and Meeks, UK will be preseason #2. With Wall, but w/o Meeks, they'll be top 5.

Kedsy
05-13-2009, 09:43 AM
I don't know if I can name a single pro for Miami outside of "beach/weather." There certainly aren't any pros when it comes to basketball (over Duke and UK), unless "minimal pressure to win" or "general apathy from fanbase" are important.


The allure of Miami (besides the weather and the women) might be the idea of being the program savior. The guy who puts the school on the map.

He'd get that at Baylor and probably NC State, too, but nobody's been talking about those schools lately.

I think we tend to minimize positives like the above or like the attraction of being part of the latest "best recruiting class of all time" (which he could get at Kentucky) because they don't apply to Duke. But they're still powerful to the neutral observer.

JasonEvans
05-13-2009, 09:47 AM
I agree; at UK or Miami he could take just six credit hours in the fall to maintain eligibility, then not take any classes in the spring. At Duke he technically could still do this, but I doubt the program would allow him to. Not trying to discount his academic integrity or anything, but I think this has to be a strong factor in his decision.


It is worth noting that if John Wall did this there could be repercussions down the line for Kentucky as the NCAA would deem that Wall was not making academic progress and it could cost Kentucky scholarships in the future -- similar to what happened to Ga Tech this year.

That said, if taking an easy academic load and just staying eligible is something Wall is interested in, then Kentucky will make that much easier for him than Duke or Miami (which I believe is actually a fairly decent school).

--Jason "I bet the Miami fans are gaga over the fact that they are in the final 3" Evans

Kedsy
05-13-2009, 09:54 AM
--Jason "I bet the Miami fans are gaga over the fact that they are in the final 3" Evans

Especially since Zagoria keeps telling them they're in the final 2...

Wander
05-13-2009, 10:45 AM
--Jason "I bet the Miami fans are gaga over the fact that they are in the final 3" Evans

Yup, I've talked to both of them, and they're pretty happy.

NYDukie
05-13-2009, 10:55 AM
I agree; at UK or Miami he could take just six credit hours in the fall to maintain eligibility, then not take any classes in the spring. At Duke he technically could still do this, but I doubt the program would allow him to. Not trying to discount his academic integrity or anything, but I think this has to be a strong factor in his decision.

Regarding UK's title chances, they will have a ton of talent but also will be adapting to a new coach, integrating several blue-chip freshmen, and probably learning an entirely new offensive system. Also they will be jettisoning between two and four current scholarship players. Duke will have a more stable, veteran lineup.

As one poster said a few down, Miami is underrated academically as does have one of the better universities. I think the South Beach idea dumbs them down a bit unfairly.

I understandthat Duke will have the more stable team but even given many of the variables UK faces, they have the potential to be real good. This was a team that went 22-14 and lets say that the addition of Cal, and potentiallyWall and Co. are worth a improvement of 5-7 games, which I believe is a fair assessment, that would put them in the range of 24-8 entering the tourney which gets thems a #3 or #4 seed. I think they will be better but I think the above is reasonable. Wall makes a huge impact wherever he lands.

JasonEvans
05-13-2009, 11:07 AM
Here is an article (http://www.kentucky.com/818/story/793674.html) quoting Rivals.com recruiting analyst Jerry Meyer saying Wall likely will wait until after the May 20th "deadline" to announce his decision.

Sweet!! At least another week of this stuff. Lets see if we can get to 3000 posts in this thread before Wall names a school!! We can do it!!

-Jason "this has the Patrick Patterson recruiting wait of 2007 beat by a mile!!" Evans

moonpie23
05-13-2009, 11:09 AM
i am now facing reality. I'm revising my over/under for this thread to

5000/50000 or 12 months whichever comes first..


arrrgghhh...

Devil07
05-13-2009, 11:17 AM
Here is an article (http://www.kentucky.com/818/story/793674.html) quoting Rivals.com recruiting analyst Jerry Meyer saying Wall likely will wait until after the May 20th "deadline" to announce his decision.


Not all that surprising, especially since he can't get his SAT scores until May 21st. If he really does need those scores to qualify then there's really no way he can make a decision without knowing what options he actually has available to him. Let's just hope he does well...

yancem
05-13-2009, 03:29 PM
Does anyone know what the deadline is for colleges making the decision to renew scholarships? It seems to me that is scholarships are considered 1 year renewable agreements, then there must be a time frame in which the schools have to decide to renew or not renew the scholarship. Otherwise a kid could show up for school in the fall only to find out that the college had taken away his scholarship.

I ask because I would think that the deadline would be coming up soon which could force Kentucky to make decisions with regard to their scholarship situation possibly before Wall chooses a school.

SilkyJ
05-13-2009, 03:43 PM
Yup, I've talked to both of them, and they're pretty happy.

HAHA. Can't believe no one else picked up on this. POTD! (maybe post of the thread?!)


Not all that surprising, especially since he can't get his SAT scores until May 21st. If he really does need those scores to qualify then there's really no way he can make a decision without knowing what options he actually has available to him. Let's just hope he does well...

A point I made to my father this morning when we were discussing this saga. What won't surprise me, is if A) his short list changes from UK/Duke/UM over the next 2 weeks and B) in the end he doesn't go to any of the 3 schools. There is much more to come mefears.

Greg_Newton
05-13-2009, 03:49 PM
Borderline ridiculous? Only if you're wearing Duke Blue colored glasses (although it'd be really hard to tell those apart from Ky Blue colored glasses, if you were just looking at them, wouldn't it?). Without knowing the kid, I don't know how you could make such a sweeping statement.


...But to say the list of pros and cons favors Duke so much it would be "borderline ridiculous" to pick anybody else is, frankly, borderline ridiculous (and I realize it wasn't FireOgilvie who originally said this). I think if you look at it objectively, you'd say that Duke and Kentucky are roughly equal in desirability, with Duke's biggest asset being proximity to his mother, and Kentucky's biggest asset the feeling of being the cool, hip, young guns with Wall and Cousins and the other newcomers.

I think you're reading too much into my "borderline ridiculous" statement... it was intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and I never meant to imply that Wall would be "ridiculous" were he to choose somewhere else. My point was that if you were to compare the tangible pros and cons of the situations Duke and at UK, as an objective outside observer, Duke would clearly come out better. See below for my reasoning.

However, Duke does not appear to be the clear leader to Wall, which led me to believe the certain factors must be much more important in the decision than what we are assuming... maybe it's very important to Wall to play with young, athletic players, maybe he's developed a very strong bond with Cal that he hasn't with K, maybe the "fun"/co-ed aspect of school is more important to him than most of us assume (i.e. South Beach), who knows. It was not my intention to imply that any of those were ridiculous factors, just making an observation.


As for the pros and cons of Duke verse UK, I will say that I personally believe that Duke offers more. However, if I am in Wall's shoes and not blinded by my Duke sunglasses, UK does offer many pros for a "one and done" prospect.

1...

Let me preface this by saying that I respect that everyone is trying to be as objective as possible (which is why I really like this board). However, I think we might be going a little too far in the other direction here. For example, the only actual pros for UK over Duke on that list were 1) Easier classes, 2) Possibly more NBA prospects, and 3) having the coach he originally wanted to play for, and I would argue that only that last point is very important.

My original point was that, on paper, the situation at Duke appears to be far superior. For the sake of arguement, let's assume that coaching/tradition is a wash, although Cal's pedigree is nowhere close to K's. So you've got School A and School B, very similar, with 3 major differences:

1. School A is 20 miles from his mother, school B is 500
2. School A returns a veteran, experienced team with a better chance at a NC than School B (that's a quote from Clifton on Monday, not my glasses talking...). School B is a program in transition, with Wall arriving amid a clusterpluck of freshman and stars looking to boost their NBA prospects with a few remaing role players that didn't transfer after the coaching change.
3. School A has 3 scholarship guards and 0 PGs on the roster. School B just offered and landed the other top-5 unsigned PG in your class, who was no doubt promised PT.

There's also the fact that most of School A's big men are fast, mobile big men (Plumlee 1 & 2, Thomas, Singler) rather than big, back-to-the-basket players (Orton, Patterson, Cousins), plus the fact that being at School A would improve Wall's slightly shady perceived image, give him more TV exposure, etc, but that gets into more debatable points.

My point with all of this is not at all that there is something wrong with Mr. Wall for not immediately choosing Duke, but that certain subjective factors must be much more important to John than we realize... otherwise "School A" clearly looks like the better option. Now hopefully he continues to warm to the subjective positives of Duke...

SupaDave
05-13-2009, 03:50 PM
Does anyone know what the deadline is for colleges making the decision to renew scholarships? It seems to me that is scholarships are considered 1 year renewable agreements, then there must be a time frame in which the schools have to decide to renew or not renew the scholarship. Otherwise a kid could show up for school in the fall only to find out that the college had taken away his scholarship.

I ask because I would think that the deadline would be coming up soon which could force Kentucky to make decisions with regard to their scholarship situation possibly before Wall chooses a school.

Good question. I would assume that financial aid doesn't kick in until the school year. However that # of scholarships is very important b/c it lets you know who may have to turn into a practice player...

grad_devil
05-13-2009, 04:00 PM
Does anyone know what the deadline is for colleges making the decision to renew scholarships?


Good question. I would assume that financial aid doesn't kick in until the school year. However that # of scholarships is very important b/c it lets you know who may have to turn into a practice player...

Well, since I'm in Atlanta at the NCAA Regional Rules Seminar, let me help you out :)

From Bylaw 15.3.5.1:

15.3.5.1 Institutional Obligation.The renewal of institutional financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability shall be made before July 1 prior to the academic year in which it is to be effective. ...

This would mean that if UK were to not renew scholarships to certain players, they'd have to notify them by July 1. Of course, if you look at bylaw 15.3.5.2:

15.5.3.2 Reconsideration of Nonrenewal.It is permissible for an institution that has notified a student-athlete that he or she will not be provided institutional financial aid for the next academic year subsequently to award financial aid to that student-athlete

They can turn around and re-award the scholarship, if Wall were to wait past July 1st and then choose a different school.

Surely this trainwreck won't proceed to that point!

--grad_devil

MulletMan
05-13-2009, 04:19 PM
They can turn around and re-award the scholarship, if Wall were to wait past July 1st and then choose a different school.

Surely this trainwreck won't proceed to that point!

--grad_devil

Won't it? I mean really, at this point who's to say that this gets resolved before July?

yancem
05-13-2009, 04:20 PM
Well, since I'm in Atlanta at the NCAA Regional Rules Seminar, let me help you out :)

From Bylaw 15.3.5.1:


This would mean that if UK were to not renew scholarships to certain players, they'd have to notify them by July 1. Of course, if you look at bylaw 15.3.5.2:


They can turn around and re-award the scholarship, if Wall were to wait past July 1st and then choose a different school.

Surely this trainwreck won't proceed to that point!

--grad_devil

Thanks for the information. I can't believe that the deadline is so late. Can you imagine finding out on June 30th that your scholarship won;t be renewed and trying to scramble to cover tuition costs or find another school that can offer you a scholarship with only 2 months notice before school starts? I really figured the deadline would be closer to the end of the school year.

I certainly hope that Wall makes a decision before July. I would think that it would be in his best interest to make a decision by June so that he can enroll in summer school to lesson his course load during basketball season and maximize his workout time with his new teammates.

BlueintheFace
05-13-2009, 04:26 PM
...at some point Wall has to just want it to be over right? Even the most self-absorbed, most famous of celebrities get sick of it eventually. I mean, he gets it ALL DAY....EVERYDAY. I believe we will know by May 20th.

roywhite
05-13-2009, 04:47 PM
Thanks for the information. I can't believe that the deadline is so late. Can you imagine finding out on June 30th that your scholarship won;t be renewed and trying to scramble to cover tuition costs or find another school that can offer you a scholarship with only 2 months notice before school starts? I really figured the deadline would be closer to the end of the school year.



About to be a real world situation for 2 to 4 players at Kentucky.

Franzez
05-13-2009, 04:53 PM
I don't know if I can name a single pro for Miami outside of "beach/weather." There certainly aren't any pros when it comes to basketball (over Duke and UK), unless "minimal pressure to win" or "general apathy from fanbase" are important.


Duke pros:

1. Coach K - between the record, 3 national championships, and Olympic experience coaching NBA All-Stars to a gold medal, this is a pretty big one. Calipari is not Coach K. He has zero national championships. Haith is in the bottom half of ACC coaches, in my opinion. I think it would be nice for John Wall to be able to say, "I played for one of the greatest college coaches of all-time."
2. Minutes - Duke has zero true point guards and 3 guards on the team total. This is not even close to the case at UK, especially with top 5 PG Eric Bledsoe. Even Miami has more depth than Duke at guard.
3. ESPN/National TV every single game. UK is not on national TV as much as Duke. Miami is not even close. National exposure is huge.
4. Reputation - Duke has a reputation for putting out quality individuals that play great team basketball and don't get in trouble off the court.
5. Academics - This might not be important for John Wall (1 year and gone), but Duke is a top 10 school.
6. Style of play - Every Duke player except Zoubek is perfect for a fast-break running offense. Kentucky has multiple lumbering centers that will have to have to be constantly fed in the post.
7. Proximity to home - He has said this is important to him.
8. Chance at a national championship - Duke would have a very good shot at a national title. The same can be said for UK. Miami might have a shot at 3rd in the ACC.
9. Conference - Both Duke and Miami are in the ACC, the best basketball conference in the country (along with the Big East). Basketball is the 2nd most important sport in the SEC.


I'm sure there are multiple others that I am missing. UK has some pros as well, but I don't think the list is comparable to Duke's.
Somebody has no clue what top recruits think anymore.:rolleyes:

What lumbering C's are at Kentucky?
Cousins is an athletic specimen.

roywhite
05-13-2009, 05:13 PM
Somebody has no clue what top recruits think anymore.:rolleyes:

What lumbering C's are at Kentucky?
Cousins is an athletic specimen.

Calipari will earn some of his big salary if he can get Cousins to:

get in great shape
play defense consistently
play hard consistently

I'd be surprised if Cousins has the type impact as a freshman that Patrick Patterson had...or that Mason Plumlee will have, just for the sake of discussion :)

TemporaryInsanity
05-13-2009, 05:43 PM
Below is the roster.

First person to talk about is Donald Williams. Donald was going to walk-on last year to Marquette. UK had an open scholarship and offered Donald the ride for 1 year only. He was told that he would have to walk on after this year. He will not be back on scholarship.

That leaves 3 over the limit if Meeks comes back ( which is likely ) , Wall commits (who knows) , AND Bledsoe qualifies ( another who knows). All 3 could happen or not happen. If UK stops recruiting John Wall because of scholarship limitations, and Meeks goes pro and Bledsoe does not qualify... who gets the blame? The man making 4 mill a year... so put yourself in his situation and tell me if you would recruit John Wall?

Also, with a coaching change you get roster turnover for one reason or another. The roster log jam will work itself out and not necessarily in the negative manner a few posters on this board are portraying. Whether it's style change, academics, or players facing reduced minutes... a few players will leave.

Seniors
Kevin Galloway
Perry Stevenson
Ramon Harris

Juniors
Patrick Patterson
AJ Stewart
Josh Harrellson
Matt Pilgrim

Soph
Deandre Liggins
Darius Miller
Donald Williams


New Guys
Eric Bledsoe
Demarcus Cousins
Darnell Dodson
Daniel Orton
Jon Hood

NBA?
Jodie Meeks- JR

another recruit?
John Wall?

Also, if you haven't guessed, I'm a Kentucky fan. One thing I ask is to NOT pay attention to Rupp Rafter's message board. Good message boards, like this one, only exist because of good moderators. Rupp Rafters is too big for the moderators to keep up with... therefore it's useless. The better UK posters have abandoned that site a long time ago.

roywhite
05-13-2009, 06:32 PM
That leaves 3 over the limit if Meeks comes back ( which is likely ) , Wall commits (who knows) , AND Bledsoe qualifies ( another who knows). All 3 could happen or not happen. If UK stops recruiting John Wall because of scholarship limitations, and Meeks goes pro and Bledsoe does not qualify... who gets the blame? The man making 4 mill a year... so put yourself in his situation and tell me if you would recruit John Wall? Also, with a coaching change you get roster turnover for one reason or another. The roster log jam will work itself out and not necessarily in the negative manner a few posters on this board are portraying. Whether it's style change, academics, or players facing reduced minutes... a few players will leave.


Also, if you haven't guessed, I'm a Kentucky fan. One thing I ask is to NOT pay attention to Rupp Rafter's message board. Good message boards, like this one, only exist because of good moderators. Rupp Rafters is too big for the moderators to keep up with... therefore it's useless. The better UK posters have abandoned that site a long time ago.

Welcome to the board, and look forward to hearing from you. It's true that Kentucky fans are often stereo-typed and that's not really fair.

However, in answer to your inquiry about squeezing under the scholarship limit by over-recruiting and then losing a few by attrition or by "persuasion"....no, I don't like that process. It is IMO unethical. Duke under Coach K does not do it.

You may indicate that Duke is not a good example...getting the cream of the student/athlete crop, but I'm hard pressed to think of any other basketball program in recent years which has approached the end of the school year with possibly 3 "extra" players on scholarship (and still looking for another recruit.)

FireOgilvie
05-13-2009, 06:56 PM
Somebody has no clue what top recruits think anymore.:rolleyes:

What lumbering C's are at Kentucky?
Cousins is an athletic specimen.

I hope you're being sarcastic... those are all valid issues. If you disagree, feel free to actually add something to the board and explain the issues that are important to recruits.

Also, DeMarcus Cousins is athletic, but he doesn't run the floor like the Plumlees, Ryan Kelly, Singler, or Lance Thomas. Orton certainly doesn't either. Also, like I said, Cousins and Orton constantly would need to the ball fed to them in the post. Duke's players don't have the same back-to-the-basket game.

Franzez
05-13-2009, 07:50 PM
I hope you're being sarcastic... those are all valid issues. If you disagree, feel free to actually add something to the board and explain the issues that are important to recruits.
I'm sorry but thats fine and dandy for recruits but the most important issues facing recruits like John Wall with an eye already towards the NBA is playing time,the system & exposure along with other little perks such as paid internships and/or money from boosters.Tradition,Conference,etc among other things rarely matter with a 1 & Done recruit.

Wall is a Worldwide Wes player and thats why hes been connected to Caliparri for so long, Wes has been basically delivering recruits to Caliparri and has done so for about 6 or 7 years now.




Also, DeMarcus Cousins is athletic, but he doesn't run the floor like the Plumlees, Ryan Kelly, Singler, or Lance Thomas. Orton certainly doesn't either. Also, like I said, Cousins and Orton constantly would need to the ball fed to them in the post. Duke's players don't have the same back-to-the-basket game.
In the DDM the PG rarely has to feed players in the post, the big men usually clear the lane for the PG to attack the basket and collapse in for putbacks and offensive rebounds.Cousins knows his role will be that of an Alley Oop recipient and to go up for putbacks or offensive rebounds, the offense isnt intended for big men to post up and score.

Franzez
05-13-2009, 07:53 PM
Calipari will earn some of his big salary if he can get Cousins to:

get in great shape
play defense consistently
play hard consistently

I'd be surprised if Cousins has the type impact as a freshman that Patrick Patterson had...or that Mason Plumlee will have, just for the sake of discussion :)
Cousins definetly needs to get in better shape but that issue relates to conditioning.

I think everything else will be fine due to his role on the team, if you are expecting or projecting him to score more than about 11 PPG this season you probably dont understand his intended role in the DDM.

FireOgilvie
05-13-2009, 08:14 PM
I'm sorry but thats fine and dandy for recruits but the most important issues facing recruits like John Wall with an eye already towards the NBA is playing time,the system & exposure along with other little perks such as paid internships and/or money from boosters.Tradition,Conference,etc among other things rarely matter with a 1 & Done recruit.

Wall is a Worldwide Wes player and thats why hes been connected to Caliparri for so long, Wes has been basically delivering recruits to Caliparri and has done so for about 6 or 7 years now.



In the DDM the PG rarely has to feed players in the post, the big men usually clear the lane for the PG to attack the basket and collapse in for putbacks and offensive rebounds.Cousins knows his role will be that of an Alley Oop recipient and to go up for putbacks or offensive rebounds, the offense isnt intended for big men to post up and score.

I mentioned playing time under "minutes." I mentioned exposure. Seriously, there's no program that gets more national exposure than Duke. Kentucky is not even close. It's also been discussed multiple times that both Duke's system and Kentucky's system would utilize Wall in an important way, so I didn't put it as a "pro." Also, I think you're out of line by assuming that "money from boosters" and paid internships (which has no effect on a 1 and done player) are important to John Wall. Oh, and Wall said when asked about Miami that one of the good things about it was "it's in the ACC." So clearly that's important.

NYDukie
05-13-2009, 08:25 PM
Let me preface this by saying that I respect that everyone is trying to be as objective as possible (which is why I really like this board). However, I think we might be going a little too far in the other direction here. For example, the only actual pros for UK over Duke on that list were 1) Easier classes, 2) Possibly more NBA prospects, and 3) having the coach he originally wanted to play for, and I would argue that only that last point is very important.

My original point was that, on paper, the situation at Duke appears to be far superior. For the sake of arguement, let's assume that coaching/tradition is a wash, although Cal's pedigree is nowhere close to K's. So you've got School A and School B, very similar, with 3 major differences:

1. School A is 20 miles from his mother, school B is 500
2. School A returns a veteran, experienced team with a better chance at a NC than School B (that's a quote from Clifton on Monday, not my glasses talking...). School B is a program in transition, with Wall arriving amid a clusterpluck of freshman and stars looking to boost their NBA prospects with a few remaing role players that didn't transfer after the coaching change.
3. School A has 3 scholarship guards and 0 PGs on the roster. School B just offered and landed the other top-5 unsigned PG in your class, who was no doubt promised PT.

There's also the fact that most of School A's big men are fast, mobile big men (Plumlee 1 & 2, Thomas, Singler) rather than big, back-to-the-basket players (Orton, Patterson, Cousins), plus the fact that being at School A would improve Wall's slightly shady perceived image, give him more TV exposure, etc, but that gets into more debatable points.

My point with all of this is not at all that there is something wrong with Mr. Wall for not immediately choosing Duke, but that certain subjective factors must be much more important to John than we realize... otherwise "School A" clearly looks like the better option. Now hopefully he continues to warm to the subjective positives of Duke...

It was never my intention to call anyone out. I would only call someone out if they replied to a thought of mine with disrespect or total disregard to the topic at hand. I've been a reader of the board for a couple of years now and have posted more consistently the past couple of months and appreciate the views of most. There are a few who look to shake things up just to start controversy or the like who I can see myself getting into it with if my NYC side comes out...LOL..but you are not one of them at all. I definately appreciate your opininion, whether I agree or not. In this case, there are points I agree with and a few I don't. What I think we both agree on in summary is the fact that both programs offer many pros to Wall, hence, the long decision making process here and the tension that this recruitment has brought to the fan base. When will it all end....LOLLLLL

mgtr
05-13-2009, 08:57 PM
I thought that John Wall was a guy who lived in a velly in Colorado and espoused free markets ....., or was that another John?

speedevil2001
05-13-2009, 09:10 PM
...at some point Wall has to just want it to be over right? Even the most self-absorbed, most famous of celebrities get sick of it eventually. I mean, he gets it ALL DAY....EVERYDAY. I believe we will know by May 20th.

he will announce after the may 20 deadline. He's John Wall, he can do that. As long as he picks duke, im going to root for him.

Duke #33
05-13-2009, 09:25 PM
he will announce after the may 20 deadline. He's John Wall, he can do that. As long as he picks duke, im going to root for him.

If he can choose after the deadline, what is the point of the deadline?

TemporaryInsanity
05-13-2009, 09:30 PM
Welcome to the board, and look forward to hearing from you. It's true that Kentucky fans are often stereo-typed and that's not really fair.

However, in answer to your inquiry about squeezing under the scholarship limit by over-recruiting and then losing a few by attrition or by "persuasion"....no, I don't like that process. It is IMO unethical. Duke under Coach K does not do it.

You may indicate that Duke is not a good example...getting the cream of the student/athlete crop, but I'm hard pressed to think of any other basketball program in recent years which has approached the end of the school year with possibly 3 "extra" players on scholarship (and still looking for another recruit.)

Those are valid points. I'm not a fan of it either, especially if you're running off kids.

I have a buddy that is close to the program (in a media way) There were a few kids that made up their mind to transfer if Gillespie stayed. 1 has let his grades slip, and the other exerted minimal effort in Calipari's practices (because he has already decided to transfer).

UK staff had the roster situation figured out a long time ago. Then.... Patterson decided to stay. That was not expected.

So, we are down to 1 now. That's if Meeks stays, Wall commits ( and qualifies ) ... and Bledsoe qualifies. Meeks staying is probably the strongest of the three.

One thing I want to bring up is over-recruiting... I'm not an advocate, but on the other side with early NBA defections and players testing the waters...it's putting programs in tough situations. Especially elite programs that have tons of pressure to win. The formala to win a National Championship is changing.... it used to be a Jr, Sr team.... then Syracuse won and everyone thought they needed a One and Done player.. then Florida gets an extra national championship because their players decided to stay... then UNC and Kansas win one apiece by having multiple late first to second round NBA talent. UNC and Kansas got lucky that their players were almost good enough to be first round locks.... but they weren't... so they stayed and dominated.

Now I'm ranting... but I don't think the age limit for the NBA draft is the answer. With the NBA draft getting watered down and basically becoming guesswork with terms like potential and upside, something needs to change. This year's draft is a perfect example, projected #4 pick Jordan Hill.... #6 Demar Derozan... if I was a GM and had to guarantee these players 10 mill over the next 3 years I would be UPSET. They didn't even dominate on the college level.

I know the players association would never go for this.. but the NBA rookie salary structure should change. I think the money should fall dramatically after the top 3 picks. Then, fall again after the 11th pick. Something needs to be done to improve the draft... and keep kids in school to work on their game and get an education. The only thing that motivates the kids is $$$... and it's tough to blame them.

That comes from the idea that more kids are leaving early since they instituted the rookie salary structure... it used to be like the NFL where the top picks got paid like all-stars.... so it really paid to stay in school and work your way to a top pick... now, it's not a huge difference between the #6 and #16... so why not go?

hedgehog
05-13-2009, 09:31 PM
If he can choose after the deadline, what is the point of the deadline?

A normal recruit may wish to sign a letter of intent to lock in his scholarship offer. While it has been pointed out that scholarship offers can be rescinded, any program is going to lose a lot of face by rescinding an offer to a recruit who has signed a LOI. There may be other rules surrounding LOIs of which I am not aware. I believe the thinking for John Wall is that school will still offer him a scholly even if he never signs a LOI.

CameronBornAndBred
05-13-2009, 09:58 PM
I know the players association would never go for this.. but the NBA rookie salary structure should change. I think the money should fall dramatically after the top 3 picks. Then, fall again after the 11th pick. Something needs to be done to improve the draft... and keep kids in school to work on their game and get an education. The only thing that motivates the kids is $$$... and it's tough to blame them.

That comes from the idea that more kids are leaving early since they instituted the rookie salary structure... it used to be like the NFL where the top picks got paid like all-stars.... so it really paid to stay in school and work your way to a top pick... now, it's not a huge difference between the #6 and #16... so why not go?
On the face, your idea for the salary structure looks good and makes sense, and in a year like this year it would be beneficial to both the NBA and NCAA. But in a strong year, there will be some players who are incredibly talented and will be starting for their teams that go in as 5 through 15, and will get shafted. It's a dilemma that I see no real solution for.
You've only posted twice, but I've enjoyed reading both. It's nice to see perspectives from the outside that are well thought out.

verga
05-13-2009, 11:22 PM
Miami has had one very good pro, even if it were 40 years ago, Rick Barry. It really has nothing to do with the current situation but he was a great pro and he played at Miami.

SupaDave
05-14-2009, 09:02 AM
Those are valid points. I'm not a fan of it either, especially if you're running off kids.

I have a buddy that is close to the program (in a media way) There were a few kids that made up their mind to transfer if Gillespie stayed. 1 has let his grades slip, and the other exerted minimal effort in Calipari's practices (because he has already decided to transfer).

UK staff had the roster situation figured out a long time ago. Then.... Patterson decided to stay. That was not expected.

So, we are down to 1 now. That's if Meeks stays, Wall commits ( and qualifies ) ... and Bledsoe qualifies. Meeks staying is probably the strongest of the three.

One thing I want to bring up is over-recruiting... I'm not an advocate, but on the other side with early NBA defections and players testing the waters...it's putting programs in tough situations. Especially elite programs that have tons of pressure to win. The formala to win a National Championship is changing.... it used to be a Jr, Sr team.... then Syracuse won and everyone thought they needed a One and Done player.. then Florida gets an extra national championship because their players decided to stay... then UNC and Kansas win one apiece by having multiple late first to second round NBA talent. UNC and Kansas got lucky that their players were almost good enough to be first round locks.... but they weren't... so they stayed and dominated.

Now I'm ranting... but I don't think the age limit for the NBA draft is the answer. With the NBA draft getting watered down and basically becoming guesswork with terms like potential and upside, something needs to change. This year's draft is a perfect example, projected #4 pick Jordan Hill.... #6 Demar Derozan... if I was a GM and had to guarantee these players 10 mill over the next 3 years I would be UPSET. They didn't even dominate on the college level.

I know the players association would never go for this.. but the NBA rookie salary structure should change. I think the money should fall dramatically after the top 3 picks. Then, fall again after the 11th pick. Something needs to be done to improve the draft... and keep kids in school to work on their game and get an education. The only thing that motivates the kids is $$$... and it's tough to blame them.

That comes from the idea that more kids are leaving early since they instituted the rookie salary structure... it used to be like the NFL where the top picks got paid like all-stars.... so it really paid to stay in school and work your way to a top pick... now, it's not a huge difference between the #6 and #16... so why not go?

This is a great post. I remember well how important it was to be junior or senior with a polished game in the draft. That was before teams were willing to let you sit on the bench.

SupaDave
05-14-2009, 09:17 AM
...at some point Wall has to just want it to be over right? Even the most self-absorbed, most famous of celebrities get sick of it eventually. I mean, he gets it ALL DAY....EVERYDAY. I believe we will know by May 20th.

He is NOT selling us concert tickets. Quite frankly, I'm sure you give it more thought daily than he does. Give that stuff a rest PLEASE. The kid has a big decision. He's talking to coaches, assistants, reporters, school friends, and oh yeah, probably a doctor every so often so I'm sure he's not looking to milk the situation.

The kid doesn't have a documentary coming (ala Lance Stephenson). He still has the whole test scores thing going on. And Jodie Meeks hasn't figured out what he's gonna do. Besides, JW also has a citation to get rid of.

Knowing what I know now? I'd be at Miami trying my best to flunk out but I was no John Wall. BUT basketball IS business to John Wall - just as it is business to Duke (as evidenced by the suits in Boyton's home visit). I think the kid gets that.

But seriously, his decision right now is like having to pick who to marry between Halle Berry, Jessica Alba, and Scarlett Johansson. Wouldn't you want to spend just a little more time with all of them before you make a decison?

MonitorMom
05-14-2009, 09:37 AM
SAT score reporting begins May 21 online. I dont expect to see a decision before later in that week. Having worked to clear high school athletes with the NCAA Clearinghouse (not for Duke) I can share that the organization does not have the sense of urgency we all have-no matter who the recruit is- a very complex process administered by some minimum wage employees who may have no interest in basketball in particular... or athletes in general. Just an opinion.

BlueintheFace
05-14-2009, 11:21 AM
He is NOT selling us concert tickets. Quite frankly, I'm sure you give it more thought daily than he does. Give that stuff a rest PLEASE. The kid has a big decision. He's talking to coaches, assistants, reporters, school friends, and oh yeah, probably a doctor every so often so I'm sure he's not looking to milk the situation.

The kid doesn't have a documentary coming (ala Lance Stephenson). He still has the whole test scores thing going on. And Jodie Meeks hasn't figured out what he's gonna do. Besides, JW also has a citation to get rid of.

Knowing what I know now? I'd be at Miami trying my best to flunk out but I was no John Wall. BUT basketball IS business to John Wall - just as it is business to Duke (as evidenced by the suits in Boyton's home visit). I think the kid gets that.

But seriously, his decision right now is like having to pick who to marry between Halle Berry, Jessica Alba, and Scarlett Johansson. Wouldn't you want to spend just a little more time with all of them before you make a decison?

Give what stuff a rest? what are you talking about? You think he enjoys this? All I am saying is that he must be getting tired of all this. People who get this kind of attention and constant publicity get tired of it real quick. He probably gets a thousand calls everyday from news sources. He probably gets a million questions from people who know him, run in to him, or just want an inside story. Plus he is talking to all the people above you mentioned. Even if he is the most self absorbed kid ever, as some on the board are suggesting, even then he must be getting tired of all the pressure and attention. That is all I am saying.


He is NOT selling us concert tickets. Quite frankly, I'm sure you give it more thought daily than he does.

Supadave, this might be the most ridiculous and probably hypocritical statement I have seen from you on this thread. (1) As you said it is a very important business decision for him and is possibly the most important decision of his life. I am sure that he thinks about it more than ANYBODY who posts on this silly thread. (2) If there is anybody who might come close, I would guess that it is the poster who has the most posts on the John Wall Thread, and you my friend, are certainly in the running for this award. I was once a very interested observer in the situation, but now I am almost apathetic.

I just think the decision has to be weighing on him and that he will make a decision soon. It's a very simple and uncontroversial statement.

SilkyJ
05-14-2009, 11:42 AM
But seriously, his decision right now is like having to pick who to marry between Halle Berry, Jessica Alba, and Scarlett Johansson. Wouldn't you want to spend just a little more time with all of them before you make a decison?

Are you offering!?! :eek:



Supadave, this might be the most ridiculous and probably hypocritical statement I have seen from you on this thread. (1) As you said it is a very important business decision for him and is possibly the most important decision of his life. I am sure that he thinks about it more than ANYBODY who posts on this silly thread. (2) If there is anybody who might come close, I would guess that it is the poster who has the most posts on the John Wall Thread, and you my friend, are certainly in the running for this award. I was once a very interested observer in the situation, but now I am almost apathetic.

I just think the decision has to be weighing on him and that he will make a decision soon. It's a very simple and uncontroversial statement.

I think when you said "Even most self-absorbed, most famous of celebrities get sick of it eventually" that Supa thought you were suggesting that Wall has those attributes, which I don't think you were. Some things get lost in binary translation...

IMHO, I doubt we know by the 20th. Even in the hypothetical where he does commit to us by the 20th, we still have to wait for his SAT scores and there's no guarantee they are up to snuff...

SupaDave
05-14-2009, 02:29 PM
Give what stuff a rest? what are you talking about? You think he enjoys this? All I am saying is that he must be getting tired of all this. People who get this kind of attention and constant publicity get tired of it real quick. He probably gets a thousand calls everyday from news sources. He probably gets a million questions from people who know him, run in to him, or just want an inside story. Plus he is talking to all the people above you mentioned. Even if he is the most self absorbed kid ever, as some on the board are suggesting, even then he must be getting tired of all the pressure and attention. That is all I am saying.

Supadave, this might be the most ridiculous and probably hypocritical statement I have seen from you on this thread. (1) As you said it is a very important business decision for him and is possibly the most important decision of his life. I am sure that he thinks about it more than ANYBODY who posts on this silly thread. (2) If there is anybody who might come close, I would guess that it is the poster who has the most posts on the John Wall Thread, and you my friend, are certainly in the running for this award. I was once a very interested observer in the situation, but now I am almost apathetic.

I just think the decision has to be weighing on him and that he will make a decision soon. It's a very simple and uncontroversial statement.

I gu-ran-tee that if you look at the majority of my posts most will be trying to provide a sense of logic to it all - some call it moderation. It sounded very much like you were calling John Wall self-absorbed and if you weren't it could have definitely been inferred. It's like saying "Stop acting like a biatch" - oh so you calling me a biatch?

I'll happily delete anything foolish sounding on my part b/c I'm as anxious as you guys at times. I would love to see him play for Duke but at the same time he's the kind of kid I would love to see play anywhere and for his sake I hope that happens.

And I promise you - the hand wringing that some of us are doing is NOT being done by John Wall. He's probably still more freaked out by his citation. I'm sure he's gotten used to the attention and I'm also sure he's insulated from a good portion of it (i.e. finding the time to visit empty houses).

Judging from the numerous education convos that we indulge in around here I'm sure there were many with lots of scholarship offers on the table. BUT how many of you didn't get any offers until your last semester of high school? Just imagine you're set to go to New Mexico State and here comes Yale a calling. What do you do? You like NMSU - but dammit that's Yale!

moonpie23
05-14-2009, 03:01 PM
would there be any way the mods could put up a little "speedometer" of "posts/hour" ? kinda like an internet online speed test?

i think that would be important to know....that way, we could just click on the thread and see the "per/hour" average........so we could know if there's been much movement.


also, can we have the thread subscription play the CRAZY TOWEL GUY CHANT when it notifies us of an "important post" on this thread?


thanks guys........

moon "awaiting 24/7/365 up-to-the-minute-posts-on-john-wall" pie23

speedevil2001
05-14-2009, 05:29 PM
for president if wall chooses duke

TemporaryInsanity
05-14-2009, 05:30 PM
UK message boards have been buzzing today.... then this comes out

http://twitter.com/jdemling

johaad
05-14-2009, 05:50 PM
UK message boards have been buzzing today.... then this comes out

http://twitter.com/jdemling

Ok, I read what this guy said, but I am failing to understand what he means? Is he saying that UK is giving a (supposed) deadline to Wall? Or is he saying something else?

DU Band Prez 88
05-14-2009, 06:04 PM
Why do we care about whether John Wall comes to Duke? Honestly.

This post has over 100 pages - absolutely ridiculous. Has this board ever had a thread this long?

Most everyone admits he's a "1 and done" player. Why does Duke want someone like that...ever? Is the only important goal to us as Duke basketball fans to have a shot at the ACC and NCAA titles every single year, regardless of which players we recruit? Think about it. And in saying this...I really don't care who Carolina recruits.

Duke has three excellent guards for next season in Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Eliott Williams. It's been mentioned on this board by numerous posters that Duke is somehow "thin" in the backcourt for next year. Really? These three players are each going to have a considerable share of minutes in each game next year - where would there be a room for a fourth guard?

Enough about John Wall - let him do his 1-and-done thing at another school, I'll take the Duke team we have, which looks really good, and enjoy being a Duke fan next season. They can still win the ACCs and perhaps go farther than we think in the NCAAs.

DukeCO2009
05-14-2009, 06:09 PM
Why do we care about whether John Wall comes to Duke? Honestly.

This post has over 100 pages - absolutely ridiculous. Has this board ever had a thread this long?

Most everyone admits he's a "1 and done" player. Why does Duke want someone like that...ever? Is the only important goal to us as Duke basketball fans to have a shot at the ACC and NCAA titles every single year, regardless of which players we recruit? Think about it. And in saying this...I really don't care who Carolina recruits.

Duke has three excellent guards for next season in Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Eliott Williams. It's been mentioned on this board by numerous posters that Duke is somehow "thin" in the backcourt for next year. Really? These three players are each going to have a considerable share of minutes in each game next year - where would there be a room for a fourth guard?

Enough about John Wall - let him do his 1-and-done thing at another school, I'll take the Duke team we have, which looks really good, and enjoy being a Duke fan next season. They can still win the ACCs and perhaps go farther than we think in the NCAAs.

I'll answer your entire post simply by saying that John Wall is good. The general consensus is that because he is such a great basketball player, ceteris paribus, he would make Duke a better team regardless of how good it would be without him. Fair enough?

johaad
05-14-2009, 06:12 PM
Why do we care about whether John Wall comes to Duke? Honestly.

This post has over 100 pages - absolutely ridiculous. Has this board ever had a thread this long?

Most everyone admits he's a "1 and done" player. Why does Duke want someone like that...ever? Is the only important goal to us as Duke basketball fans to have a shot at the ACC and NCAA titles every single year, regardless of which players we recruit? Think about it. And in saying this...I really don't care who Carolina recruits.

Duke has three excellent guards for next season in Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Eliott Williams. It's been mentioned on this board by numerous posters that Duke is somehow "thin" in the backcourt for next year. Really? These three players are each going to have a considerable share of minutes in each game next year - where would there be a room for a fourth guard?

Enough about John Wall - let him do his 1-and-done thing at another school, I'll take the Duke team we have, which looks really good, and enjoy being a Duke fan next season. They can still win the ACCs and perhaps go farther than we think in the NCAAs.

We care about John Wall because he could really help us next season. While we have 3 good guards, the truth is, none of them are legitimate point guards. Scheyer did a great job filling in last year but we can't win big with that kind of point guard. Let me just say that I felt similar to you when we started recruiting him. I didn't like the idea of a probable one and done. But then I realized that there are a lot of guys that we would be missing out on if we don't accept this type of recruit. And as much as I hate it, there are less and less recruits wanting to stay four years at college. The recruiting game is changing. In all likelyhood Wall will leave whatever school he chooses next year. That said, I definitely think that the upside outweighs the downside significantly.

And if you need another reason, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4CbQGBbUOw

FireOgilvie
05-14-2009, 06:24 PM
Why do we care about whether John Wall comes to Duke? Honestly.

This post has over 100 pages - absolutely ridiculous. Has this board ever had a thread this long?

Most everyone admits he's a "1 and done" player. Why does Duke want someone like that...ever? Is the only important goal to us as Duke basketball fans to have a shot at the ACC and NCAA titles every single year, regardless of which players we recruit? Think about it. And in saying this...I really don't care who Carolina recruits.

Duke has three excellent guards for next season in Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Eliott Williams. It's been mentioned on this board by numerous posters that Duke is somehow "thin" in the backcourt for next year. Really? These three players are each going to have a considerable share of minutes in each game next year - where would there be a room for a fourth guard?

Enough about John Wall - let him do his 1-and-done thing at another school, I'll take the Duke team we have, which looks really good, and enjoy being a Duke fan next season. They can still win the ACCs and perhaps go farther than we think in the NCAAs.

Clearly a lot of people care. I doubt you've read the entire thread, but if you have, you have seen a lot of answers to why we need him. You note that we have three guards next seasons, but we have ONLY three guards. I don't think there's another team in the entire country that only has 3 guards. What happens if someone gets injured? Think about it.

I don't understand why people keep making posts like this. For one, the people on the message board aren't the ones recruiting him. Even if someone agrees with you, nothing will change. If you want to complain, call the athletic department. Every Duke Basketball fan I know trusts Coach K to make good decisions regarding the character of the kids he recruits. Honestly, I trust his character judgment more than his basketball judgment (and I think he's one of the greatest coaches of all-time).

johaad
05-14-2009, 06:26 PM
Clearly a lot of people care. I doubt you've read the entire thread, but if you have, you have seen a lot of answers to why we need him. You note that we have three guards next seasons, but we have ONLY three guards. I don't think there's another team in the entire country that only has 3 guards. What happens if someone gets injured? Think about it.

I don't understand why people keep making posts like this. For one, the people on the message board aren't the ones recruiting him. Even if someone agrees with you, nothing will change. If you want to complain, call the athletic department. Every Duke Basketball fan I know trusts Coach K to make good decisions regarding the character of the kids he recruits. Honestly, I trust his character judgment more than his basketball judgment (and I think he's one of the greatest coaches of all-time).

I agree with you 100%. Great post.

Bluedog
05-14-2009, 06:33 PM
UK message boards have been buzzing today.... then this comes out

http://twitter.com/jdemling

http://twitter.com/EvanDanielscout


J-Wall talk heating up. Think we may be a few days away from a decision!


http://twitter.com/DaveTelep


One SEC school with rich history wants the Wall to come down now but commit or else? Evening temp says unlikely to pop overnite

roywhite
05-14-2009, 06:33 PM
Ok, I read what this guy said, but I am failing to understand what he means? Is he saying that UK is giving a (supposed) deadline to Wall? Or is he saying something else?

FWIW, other posters on the UK board catspause.com claim to have spoken to Wall recently (this afternoon) and that:

He's not planning to make a decision within the next 24 hrs
There are 4 schools still in it---UK, FL, Miami, and Duke
None of those have given him a deadline

speedevil2001
05-14-2009, 06:33 PM
Why do we care about whether John Wall comes to Duke? Honestly.

This post has over 100 pages - absolutely ridiculous. Has this board ever had a thread this long?

Most everyone admits he's a "1 and done" player. Why does Duke want someone like that...ever? Is the only important goal to us as Duke basketball fans to have a shot at the ACC and NCAA titles every single year, regardless of which players we recruit? Think about it. And in saying this...I really don't care who Carolina recruits.

Duke has three excellent guards for next season in Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Eliott Williams. It's been mentioned on this board by numerous posters that Duke is somehow "thin" in the backcourt for next year. Really? These three players are each going to have a considerable share of minutes in each game next year - where would there be a room for a fourth guard?

Enough about John Wall - let him do his 1-and-done thing at another school, I'll take the Duke team we have, which looks really good, and enjoy being a Duke fan next season. They can still win the ACCs and perhaps go farther than we think in the NCAAs.

In my opinion:
John Wall is going to be the most important recruit since jason williams if he comes to duke.
John Wall is going to be the most important recruit that didnt come to duke if he goes else where.

He is the link that could bring a final four appearance, maybe even a national championship to duke.

He is that important.

johaad
05-14-2009, 07:02 PM
FWIW, other posters on the UK board catspause.com claim to have spoken to Wall recently (this afternoon) and that:

He's not planning to make a decision within the next 24 hrs
There are 4 schools still in it---UK, FL, Miami, and Duke
None of those have given him a deadline

Yeah, I saw that. It is from Kentucky Sports Radio Blog by Matt Jones. I don't know anything about that guy but I would think scout.com would have something about his narrowing schools if it were true.

Here is the link. http://blog.kentuckysportsradio.com/

gotham devil
05-14-2009, 07:05 PM
Yeah, I saw that. It is from Kentucky Sports Radio Blog by Matt Jones. I don't know anything about that guy but I would think scout.com would have something about his narrowing schools if it were true.

Here is the link. http://blog.kentuckysportsradio.com/

Jones went to Kentucky as an undergraduate and managed to get into the law school at Duke. In spite of telling his audience at every possible moment that he "attended Duke," he relishes telling them that he loathes Duke and plays up a non-existant rivalry. His accent is even kidded by his KY audience as being "country," so one can picture how well it went over during his interviews at white-shoe law firms after graduating from Duke law school. After his radio show got pulled off of the air (he attributed it to a Lousiville AD conspiracy), he began his own firm this January.

CameronBornAndBred
05-14-2009, 08:07 PM
I don't understand why people keep making posts like this.
Because there is nothing wrong with offering a differing opinion. I enjoy reading them more than the 2300+ other "We need Wall" posts.

wilson
05-14-2009, 08:13 PM
Because there is nothing wrong with offering a differing opinion. I enjoy reading them more than the 2300+ other "We need Wall" posts.

But omg he is so good he would take us to the final four please come to duke LGD Duke rocks!

FireOgilvie
05-14-2009, 08:27 PM
Because there is nothing wrong with offering a differing opinion. I enjoy reading them more than the 2300+ other "We need Wall" posts.

Differing opinions are fine. If someone is just completely opposed to Duke recruiting a player who might be one-and-done, then that's okay with me. I was reacting to the belittling of people for the extensive discussion of John Wall or for "caring" whether or not he comes to Duke. I'm sure there are legitimate reasons for the opinions, but expressing those reasons would be more useful than calling out posters on a message board for caring.

mo.st.dukie
05-14-2009, 08:33 PM
Most everyone admits he's a "1 and done" player. Why does Duke want someone like that...ever?

Do you remember the last two one-n-done players Duke had? Do you remember how far Duke got in the tourney with those two players? One-n-done players are very good for a program if two things occur:

1.) They maintain good academic standing throughout the entire year (I highly doubt Coach K and the rest of Duke bball staff would let any player blow off academics)

2.) They are surrounded by talented upperclassmen (which Duke will have next year).

John Wall is the type of player who would make everyone else better. Duke's inside game will already be a step up from last year but with Wall our bigs would look very good.

Kedsy
05-14-2009, 09:17 PM
Duke has three excellent guards for next season in Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Eliott Williams. It's been mentioned on this board by numerous posters that Duke is somehow "thin" in the backcourt for next year. Really? These three players are each going to have a considerable share of minutes in each game next year - where would there be a room for a fourth guard?


Well, putting aside the possibility of injury or foul trouble, the fact is that for the past several years Duke has been playing a three guard offense. Unless something changes, in order to do that next year all three guards would have to play 40 minutes. True, we don't have to play a three guard offense; we have several players, starting with Kyle who are capable of playing wing. We can cope. But to say "where would there be room for a fourth guard," you're kidding, right?

wilson
05-14-2009, 09:19 PM
Well, putting aside the possibility of injury or foul trouble, the fact is that for the past several years Duke has been playing a three guard offense. Unless something changes, in order to do that next year all three guards would have to play 40 minutes. True, we don't have to play a three guard offense; we have several players, starting with Kyle who are capable of playing wing. We can cope. But to say "where would there be room for a fourth guard," you're kidding, right?

Good point, but to be fair, the three-guard offense of recent years has been due not to preference, but rather to the lack of sufficient post personnel.

NYDukie
05-14-2009, 09:30 PM
he appears to be the type of player who can elevate a team regardless of whether he is a primary scorer or not. He can be the prototypical PG similar to a Kidd on the collegiate level, not needing to score but affect tempo, make teammates better and attack on D. When necessary, he can be like a Paul and score by getting to hole or in the lane whenever he wants. He also seems like a PG that other players would want to play with. I know this is all speculation and who knows how ultimately he will turn out but the prospects that such a possible commitment would bring would be tremendous for the Duke team, whether you are for him coming to Duke or not.

wilko
05-14-2009, 10:17 PM
Good point, but to be fair, the three-guard offense of recent years has been due not to preference, but rather to the lack of sufficient post personnel.

I hear ya and agree to a point.
But... If we had the right setup man with a quick 1st step that can break down a D... I'd be inclined to think that Brian and Lance might be a tad more productive. Its not quite fair to ask Brian and Lance to create off the dribble, I thin it a combination of not not being able to give them the ball in the right places to maximize their opportunities.

The guards we have had recently, havent been that kind of setup guy. I think we need to fill that need.

Duke3517
05-14-2009, 10:59 PM
Why do we care about whether John Wall comes to Duke? Honestly.

This post has over 100 pages - absolutely ridiculous. Has this board ever had a thread this long?

Most everyone admits he's a "1 and done" player. Why does Duke want someone like that...ever? Is the only important goal to us as Duke basketball fans to have a shot at the ACC and NCAA titles every single year, regardless of which players we recruit? Think about it. And in saying this...I really don't care who Carolina recruits.

Duke has three excellent guards for next season in Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Eliott Williams. It's been mentioned on this board by numerous posters that Duke is somehow "thin" in the backcourt for next year. Really? These three players are each going to have a considerable share of minutes in each game next year - where would there be a room for a fourth guard?

Enough about John Wall - let him do his 1-and-done thing at another school, I'll take the Duke team we have, which looks really good, and enjoy being a Duke fan next season. They can still win the ACCs and perhaps go farther than we think in the NCAAs.

Completely agree! I am absolutely sold on the team coming out next year, I just don't think Duke will get Wall (nothing against him, he is only a kid). I think the board needs to focus more on the team they have currently rather then dwell on something that will most likely not happen.

Kedsy
05-14-2009, 11:46 PM
Good point, but to be fair, the three-guard offense of recent years has been due not to preference, but rather to the lack of sufficient post personnel.

Possibly, but I'm not entirely convinced that's correct. It seems these days the best big men are going pro earlier and earlier. Lots of teams are playing the three guard set (like Villanova, for example) and it seems sometimes you have no choice but to go that route. For example, Wake Forest, who was a huge team this year, went to the three guard approach a lot when they played Duke, because otherwise they couldn't guard us. I can't say for sure whether K has played the three guard offense because we didn't have enough frontcourt depth or because that's the kind of lineup that's most effective.

TheBrianZoubekExperience
05-15-2009, 01:09 AM
Differing opinions are fine. If someone is just completely opposed to Duke recruiting a player who might be one-and-done, then that's okay with me. I was reacting to the belittling of people for the extensive discussion of John Wall or for "caring" whether or not he comes to Duke. I'm sure there are legitimate reasons for the opinions, but expressing those reasons would be more useful than calling out posters on a message board for caring.

Agree. I've seen several posts of this tone criticizing people for having an opinion. Thats the whole point of a message board. For fans to come and discuss things relevant to their teams. I don't see the point of coming to a message board and criticizing people for posting their opinion on a message board.

Houston
05-15-2009, 02:05 AM
Why do we care about whether John Wall comes to Duke? Honestly.

This post has over 100 pages - absolutely ridiculous. Has this board ever had a thread this long?

Most everyone admits he's a "1 and done" player. Why does Duke want someone like that...ever? Is the only important goal to us as Duke basketball fans to have a shot at the ACC and NCAA titles every single year, regardless of which players we recruit? Think about it. And in saying this...I really don't care who Carolina recruits.

Duke has three excellent guards for next season in Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Eliott Williams. It's been mentioned on this board by numerous posters that Duke is somehow "thin" in the backcourt for next year. Really? These three players are each going to have a considerable share of minutes in each game next year - where would there be a room for a fourth guard?

Enough about John Wall - let him do his 1-and-done thing at another school, I'll take the Duke team we have, which looks really good, and enjoy being a Duke fan next season. They can still win the ACCs and perhaps go farther than we think in the NCAAs.

People care if Wall comes to Duke because people care about Duke basketball. College basketball has changed. One-and-done players are a fact of life. One can accept the new reality and learn how to excel in this environment or fall victim to the other programs that adapt.

If the player can do the work and Coach believes he is a good fit for the program, he should be recruited. Loul Deng worked out well. If Duke knows in advance the player is leaving early and can adequately plan, I don't see the problem.

If Wall does not come to Duke, they will be thin in the backcourt for the scheme coach likes to employ (I'm not assuming they all play 40 minutes/game) and we will still lack to true pg. The team will do well in the ACC and will have problems in the tournament. Reaching the sweet 16 will be difficult.

People care if Wall comes to Duke because take great pride in having the best program in college basketball.

Truth
05-15-2009, 08:27 AM
http://www.truthbegins.com/blog/2009/05/14/john-wall-more-popular-than-sliced-bread/

According to Google, that is...;)

NYDukie
05-15-2009, 08:49 AM
We care because as fans we want our team to be good. Regardless of what most say, whether your for or against something, in this case John Wall, we want our teams to win for selfish reasons first and foremost.

Going beyond our selfish reasons as fans, we also care because we sincerely care about the team we root for. Usually of the teams we root for, we become more connected to one than the others. In my case I'm a fan of Duke, the Yankees, the Knicks, the Islanders (god help me with the Knicks and Islanders) and the Iggles in the NFL (first NFL I watched at 6 years old was the Cowboy-Eagles NFC championship game in 81). Of all these teams, I am oddly most connected to the Duke teams because of the players and coaches. I also feel that college athletes put more of their heart into it than pros, just my opinion, as they are still chasing the dream to be in the league, whether for pure purposes or the almighty $$$ and that I find more alluring. I have even sucked my wife into being an avide fan as she is a big sports fan. During the season we make sure we are home from work in time to watch the games and on weekends we check our schedule to see when the game is on. We even have our lil girl Camryn (purely coincidental with the name, i think, maybe my subconscious led me to it...LOL) bouncing in her jumperoo during the games while we playfully cheer "Let's go Duke" to her which makes her laugh and giggle. As fans, we are connected to the teams and care!

How does relate to Wall??? For me, and I've been a critic of the Wall recruitment at times too, I see a team that currently exists, which I love. I see a Duke team of very good players and individuals. I wish G was part of it because I feel he is still one of them and wish he could continue the experience with them. I would love to see this team, particularly the Scheyers, Zoubeks, Thomas', Singlers and Smiths of the world get to the Final 4 for a shot at the title. I think they deserve it for persevering through much criticism, myself included at times also. I also believe they have the talent but are missing one piece to get over the top. That's where I feel Wall fits. Putting aside the long recruitment I personally feel as a PG he would fit perfectly at Duke. He would help elevate everyone's game, whether he scores or not but can also be the guy at the end of a game to get a shot if necessary. He is the prototypical PG, a team player, similar to a Kidd or more recently a Rose that would raise the level of this team. As a fan of the team, I wish Wall would come to Duke.

Now is that to say I don't have reservations? No, it doesn't. It's not because of a one and done scenario. To me, Wall's game does not translate to a disruptive force on a team because his game is team oriented, whereas a Lance Stephenson's is not. I'm more concerned though of his maturity as a person. I believe he is a good kid but one that tends to make a few more immature decisions that the average kid. Could he be somewhat of a problem? Possibly, I could see a Avery like scenario where the grades are not up to snuff but I think that would be worst case scenario. On the other hand, I can see a Dockery like impact made upon him by the staff and team that impact's Wall beyond his time at Duke, be it a year or two.

In any case, as a fan of the team that I have a great connection to, I feel ultimately why most "care" that Wall comes to Duke is that they "care" greatly for this team and for it to have the opportunity to be great and remembered with the some of the other great teams of Duke past.

Kedsy
05-15-2009, 09:28 AM
We care because as fans we want our team to be good. Regardless of what most say, whether your for or against something, in this case John Wall, we want our teams to win for selfish reasons first and foremost.

Going beyond our selfish reasons as fans, we also care because we sincerely care about the team we root for. Usually of the teams we root for, we become more connected to one than the others. In my case I'm a fan of Duke, the Yankees, the Knicks, the Islanders (god help me with the Knicks and Islanders) and the Iggles in the NFL (first NFL I watched at 6 years old was the Cowboy-Eagles NFC championship game in 81). Of all these teams, I am oddly most connected to the Duke teams because of the players and coaches. I also feel that college athletes put more of their heart into it than pros, just my opinion, as they are still chasing the dream to be in the league, whether for pure purposes or the almighty $$$ and that I find more alluring. I have even sucked my wife into being an avide fan as she is a big sports fan. During the season we make sure we are home from work in time to watch the games and on weekends we check our schedule to see when the game is on. We even have our lil girl Camryn (purely coincidental with the name, i think, maybe my subconscious led me to it...LOL) bouncing in her jumperoo during the games while we playfully cheer "Let's go Duke" to her which makes her laugh and giggle. As fans, we are connected to the teams and care!

How does relate to Wall??? For me, and I've been a critic of the Wall recruitment at times too, I see a team that currently exists, which I love. I see a Duke team of very good players and individuals. I wish G was part of it because I feel he is still one of them and wish he could continue the experience with them. I would love to see this team, particularly the Scheyers, Zoubeks, Thomas', Singlers and Smiths of the world get to the Final 4 for a shot at the title. I think they deserve it for persevering through much criticism, myself included at times also. I also believe they have the talent but are missing one piece to get over the top. That's where I feel Wall fits. Putting aside the long recruitment I personally feel as a PG he would fit perfectly at Duke. He would help elevate everyone's game, whether he scores or not but can also be the guy at the end of a game to get a shot if necessary. He is the prototypical PG, a team player, similar to a Kidd or more recently a Rose that would raise the level of this team. As a fan of the team, I wish Wall would come to Duke.

Now is that to say I don't have reservations? No, it doesn't. It's not because of a one and done scenario. To me, Wall's game does not translate to a disruptive force on a team because his game is team oriented, whereas a Lance Stephenson's is not. I'm more concerned though of his maturity as a person. I believe he is a good kid but one that tends to make a few more immature decisions that the average kid. Could he be somewhat of a problem? Possibly, I could see a Avery like scenario where the grades are not up to snuff but I think that would be worst case scenario. On the other hand, I can see a Dockery like impact made upon him by the staff and team that impact's Wall beyond his time at Duke, be it a year or two.

In any case, as a fan of the team that I have a great connection to, I feel ultimately why most "care" that Wall comes to Duke is that they "care" greatly for this team and for it to have the opportunity to be great and remembered with the some of the other great teams of Duke past.

Good post. I also think it's important to note that just because many of us want John Wall to come to Duke, we'll still root passionately for the team if he doesn't. Caring about him coming does not preclude caring about the rest of the team.

NYDukie
05-15-2009, 09:42 AM
Good post. I also think it's important to note that just because many of us want John Wall to come to Duke, we'll still root passionately for the team if he doesn't. Caring about him coming does not preclude caring about the rest of the team.

Agreed. I just feel that I care greatly for the team in that him coming would mean a lot to them and him but for the team as a whole more so.

MIKESJ73
05-15-2009, 01:59 PM
Who needs Wall? We should go after these guys. JK

http://tasithoughts.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/red-necks-amazing-trick-shots/

Scorp4me
05-15-2009, 02:22 PM
People care if Wall comes to Duke because people care about Duke basketball. College basketball has changed. One-and-done players are a fact of life. One can accept the new reality and learn how to excel in this environment or fall victim to the other programs that adapt.

I completely disagree. You give me a John Scheyer over a John Wall anyday. Duke doesn't need one and done players to succeed. They simply need enough players at each position. Lately we've been lacking in the post, we've definately fixed that (at least quantity). Now we're thin at the point. Don't get me wrong it's frustrating, but you don't need one and done players to fix it.

weezie
05-15-2009, 02:28 PM
Who needs Wall? We should go after these guys. JK

http://tasithoughts.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/red-necks-amazing-trick-shots/


What a great country we live in! LOL

Matches
05-15-2009, 02:34 PM
I completely disagree. You give me a John Scheyer over a John Wall anyday.

It's not an either-or proposition. No reason we can't recruit a Jon Scheyer AND a John Wall.

We need a PG for next year. Wall is available and is (supposedly) really really good. Assuming K is satisfied that he's a good kid and a good fit for the team, why exactly shouldn't we go after him?

superdave
05-15-2009, 04:10 PM
Havent all these arguments been covered over and over and over in this thread? Has anyone added something new to the conversation in a while? Take a breather folks!

Here's some alternative ideas to discuss on other, active threads:

The NBA playoffs - really good this year.
Harrison Barnes - oh wait, nothing new there either!
Gerald Henderson's eventual NBA team - I really hope he doesnt go to Charlotte and get stuck with Jordan, May and Felton.


Super "this thread jumped the shark long ago!!!! Good things I wont have internet access on vacation next week" Dave

gotham devil
05-15-2009, 05:07 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4170004&name=katz_andy

• A John Wall decision could come as early as this weekend with Miami and Kentucky being the two likeliest destinations for the top point guard in the Class of 2009 to land...If Miami gets Wall, then you can chalk this down as one of the top recruiting coups of the last 10 years. Hurricanes coach Frank Haith will have pulled off quite a feat if he gets Wall to replace Jack McClinton, making the Canes an NCAA team and ensuring Miami is a must-see destination for hoops for the next 10 months.

FireOgilvie
05-15-2009, 05:22 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4170004&name=katz_andy

• A John Wall decision could come as early as this weekend with Miami and Kentucky being the two likeliest destinations for the top point guard in the Class of 2009 to land...If Miami gets Wall, then you can chalk this down as one of the top recruiting coups of the last 10 years. Hurricanes coach Frank Haith will have pulled off quite a feat if he gets Wall to replace Jack McClinton, making the Canes an NCAA team and ensuring Miami is a must-see destination for hoops for the next 10 months.

We'll see. I have a feeling Katz doesn't know much more than anyone else and that this is basically a guess. He doesn't even mention if there was a source or not. It's been shown over and over again that even when there are "sources," they've been wrong. In the past, Wall or Clifton have made their intentions known (when asked). Clifton, in particular, doesn't hold back when he actually has something to say.

CameronBornAndBred
05-15-2009, 05:54 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4170004&name=katz_andy

• A John Wall decision could come as early as this weekend with Miami and Kentucky being the two likeliest destinations for the top point guard in the Class of 2009 to land...If Miami gets Wall, then you can chalk this down as one of the top recruiting coups of the last 10 years. Hurricanes coach Frank Haith will have pulled off quite a feat if he gets Wall to replace Jack McClinton, making the Canes an NCAA team and ensuring Miami is a must-see destination for hoops for the next 10 months.
No sources listed, or even "insiders close to the situation say". Pointless to write about it without backing it up a little bit. The most important word in his whole article is "could". Katz knows as much as anybody else right now.

Wander
05-15-2009, 06:05 PM
I don't usually throw around the "This announcer/writer is biased/hates team X" crap.... but Katz clearly loves Miami and has for a few years now. I have no idea why.

gotham devil
05-15-2009, 06:26 PM
I don't usually throw around the "This announcer/writer is biased/hates team X" crap.... but Katz clearly loves Miami and has for a few years now. I have no idea why.
I love to travel and have seen the 48 connected states, but many seem to prefer spending time in international cities over isolated college towns. Perhaps, in general, Katz would prefer covering a game in Miami in December over Stillwater, Oklahoma or East Lansing, Michigan.

As for John Wall, he's an immense talent and any school would be fortunate to get him. I realize a small fraction of people like to dismiss the importance of any elite recruit (perhaps as a slight defense mechanism against the potential feeling of rejection), but Coach Krzyzewski wouldn't have chased John Wall around since missing out on Kenny Boynton, if he didn't feel there was a serious depth issue in the 2009-2010 backcourt.

Indoor66
05-15-2009, 09:56 PM
As for John Wall, he's an immense talent and any school would be fortunate to get him. I realize a small fraction of people like to dismiss the importance of any elite recruit (perhaps as a slight defense mechanism against the potential feeling of rejection), but Coach Krzyzewski wouldn't have chased John Wall around since missing out on Kenny Boynton, if he didn't feel there was a serious depth issue in the 2009-2010 backcourt.

Do any of us really know how much "chasing" of John Wall Coach K has done?

_Gary
05-16-2009, 12:20 AM
Do any of us really know how much "chasing" of John Wall Coach K has done?

Well, all I can add to this is what Coach K said when he was interviewed by Jim Rome (whom I despise and never listen to unless I happen to hear he's interviewing someone special). In that radio interview he made a few things abundantly clear:

1) Neither he, his staff, nor the players were anywhere close to satisfied with the ending they had to this past season. There were no "moral" victories or any type of satisfaction with the year in his words or his voice. He loves his players and his team. He said that. But he also made it very clear he wasn't at all satisfied with their exit in the Sweet 16.

2) When asked about the "early exits" the last couple of years, Coach K clearly pointed to the fact that they thought they had Patterson and Monroe and lost them at what seemed to be the 11th hour. To me it sounded very much like those misses still stung to Coach.

3) Without going into detail because of NCAA rules, Coach K made it clear that he was going strong after Wall. There's no doubt at all that he wants the kid bad, unless something has happened recently to turn him off.

Hearing all that straight from Coach K's lips made me all the more want to see us get Wall. Because I think Coach K thinks its a pretty significant deal. And it really did sound to me like he wanted to land this kid badly. But I guess your mileage may vary on the tone of the interview. I thought is was clear Coach wants Wall big time.

Gary

Houston
05-16-2009, 07:34 AM
I completely disagree. You give me a John Scheyer over a John Wall anyday. Duke doesn't need one and done players to succeed. They simply need enough players at each position. Lately we've been lacking in the post, we've definately fixed that (at least quantity). Now we're thin at the point. Don't get me wrong it's frustrating, but you don't need one and done players to fix it.

I want both players. I want Jon to go too the final four. As the roster is currently constructed that will be difficult. Wall will not guarnatee a FF appearance, but he will help.

As I said before college basketball is changing. One-and -dones are a fact of life. Duke needs to adapt to continue to excel. Duke successfully developed a program to allow 3 year players to graduate. Coach will develop a program for one-and-dones w/o sacrificing academics.

KrazyKfan
05-16-2009, 06:49 PM
I want both players. I want Jon to go too the final four. As the roster is currently constructed that will be difficult. Wall will not guarnatee a FF appearance, but he will help.

As I said before college basketball is changing. One-and -dones are a fact of life. Duke needs to adapt to continue to excel. Duke successfully developed a program to allow 3 year players to graduate. Coach will develop a program for one-and-dones w/o sacrificing academics.

You still have to get good players. I'm sorry, you have to get the BEST players if you want to win a national championship. Sure, having Jon Scheyer is a part of that, but you need a tremendous athlete that can get it done down the stretch, i.e. Grant Hill or Shane Battier. John Wall is the most althletic kid I have ever seen play the game, and with the loss of G, our national championship hopes are slim.

sagegrouse
05-16-2009, 07:02 PM
As for John Wall, he's an immense talent and any school would be fortunate to get him. I realize a small fraction of people like to dismiss the importance of any elite recruit (perhaps as a slight defense mechanism against the potential feeling of rejection), but Coach Krzyzewski wouldn't have chased John Wall .....

My "defense mechanism" is not slight; it is in full roar. If Wall comes to Duke, he will be the greatest recruit since Jason Williams. If he goes elsewhere, he will be a spoiled opportunist that will make little contribution in the few months he spends actually going to class.

sagegrouse

CameronBornAndBred
05-16-2009, 07:33 PM
My "defense mechanism" is not slight; it is in full roar. If Wall comes to Duke, he will be the greatest recruit since Jason Williams.
HUH?!!!! Let's see him play in a Duke uniform before making that call.


If he goes elsewhere, he will be a spoiled opportunist that will make little contribution in the few months he spends actually going to class.

I just wanted to reprint that. I have no comment on it other than I find it very disturbing. Ok, I do have a comment. Why would coming to Duke change his academic attitude over going anywhere else? Sigh. If and when he goes to another school, this board is going to show it's ugly side.

El_Diablo
05-16-2009, 08:05 PM
Um, I think sagegrouse was just being facetious there. :)

CameronBornAndBred
05-16-2009, 08:19 PM
Um, I think sagegrouse was just being facetious there. :)
I'm hoping so, I just didn't see the signs in the post. He's never been less than Sage-ey before. Sarcasm flows like clay when written sometimes.

Truth
05-16-2009, 10:27 PM
You still have to get good players. I'm sorry, you have to get the BEST players if you want to win a national championship. Sure, having Jon Scheyer is a part of that, but you need a tremendous athlete that can get it done down the stretch, i.e. Grant Hill or Shane Battier. John Wall is the most althletic kid I have ever seen play the game, and with the loss of G, our national championship hopes are slim.

Grant Hill = tremendous athlete. No argument here.

Shane Battier = tremendous athlete. Hmmm... getting shaky here.

John Wall = the most athletic kid to ever play the game. WHOA!

I think you went off the deep end with that last one. Nearly all of us would like to see John Wall suit up for Duke, but he's hardly the "most athletic kid" to ever play this game. I'd easily take one Grant Hill over a team full of John Walls...

sobe
05-16-2009, 10:28 PM
Grant Hill = tremendous athlete. No argument here.

Shane Battier = tremendous athlete. Hmmm... getting shaky here.

John Wall = the most athletic kid to ever play the game. WHOA!

I think you went off the deep end with that last one. Nearly all of us would like to see John Wall suit up for Duke, but he's hardly the "most athletic kid" to ever play this game. I'd easily take one Grant Hill over a team full of John Walls...

And a LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, etc., etc. over 10,000 Grant Hills.

Truth
05-16-2009, 10:34 PM
And a LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, etc., etc. over 10,000 Grant Hills.

Sounds like you did not watch Grant Hill play in college... obviously, we cannot compare the college careers of 3/4's of your examples, but Grant Hill was considerably more advanced than Dwayne Wade.

And I know you're going for hyperbole, but I don't think you could trade two injury-free Grant Hills, much less 10,000, for any single player in the world.

sobe
05-16-2009, 10:37 PM
Sounds like you did not watch Grant Hill play in college... obviously, we cannot compare the college careers of 3/4's of your examples, but Grant Hill was considerably more advanced than Dwayne Wade.

And I know you're going for hyperbole, but I don't think you could trade two injury-free Grant Hills, much less 10,000, for any single player in the world.

Grant Hill was an outstanding college player, but no where near the talent of your eventual NBA MVP type players.

Truth
05-16-2009, 10:47 PM
Grant Hill was an outstanding college player, but no where near the talent of your eventual NBA MVP type players.

Did you actually watch Grant Hill during his four years at Duke?

If so, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Before his well-publicized string of injuries, Grant was NBA co-ROY, a fixture in the NBA All-Star game, and many, many folks were looking to him as Air Apparent. He was most definitely an "NBA MVP"-caliber talent.

roywhite
05-16-2009, 10:47 PM
Grant Hill was an outstanding college player, but no where near the talent of your eventual NBA MVP type players.

Oh?

Grant Hill was NBA Rookie-of-the-Year. From 1996 to 2000, he was either 1st Team (in 1997) or 2nd team All-NBA. So for a five year period he was considered no worse than one of the 10 best players in the league.

Since you're fairly new here, I think you'll find that putting down Duke players, esp. someone like Grant Hill, without being factual or reasonable, is not a good way to gain credibility.

Newton_14
05-16-2009, 11:23 PM
Now back to John Wall. I am a fan, a big fan at that. My opinion of the kid has drastically changed over the last several months and I really hope he signs with Duke.

He is a tremendous talent and no doubt is one of those "immediate impact" players. That said, I too, would hold off on declaring him "most athletic player ever".. a wee bit overboard me thinks..

But the guy is an immense talent. Like Shackelford he is "amphibious" and can do things with his off hand that most kids his age can't do with their strong hand..

It does look like his recruitment will drag on a little longer, but hopefully within a couple of weeks he will end the process and select a school. It will be a great start to the summer if Duke is his selection..

verga
05-17-2009, 12:07 AM
Grant Hill was 6'8", John Wall is 6'4", i saw Grant Hill in HS, college and the pros. He is a better basketball player than John Wall, however he is not or was not the athlete John Wall is. The difference in the two, to me, is Grant could control a game and win, John Wall has not shown me he has a winners mentality like Grant. If i were picking a team Grant Hill would be my first selection (i'm talking about Duke players) but i have seen John Wall do amazing things on the court but he has yet to show me he is a consistent winner. For that reason, if we don't get Wall, i'll live with it.

BlueintheFace
05-17-2009, 01:13 AM
Grant Hill was 6'8", John Wall is 6'4", i saw Grant Hill in HS, college and the pros. He is a better basketball player than John Wall, however he is not or was not the athlete John Wall is. The difference in the two, to me, is Grant could control a game and win, John Wall has not shown me he has a winners mentality like Grant. If i were picking a team Grant Hill would be my first selection (i'm talking about Duke players) but i have seen John Wall do amazing things on the court but he has yet to show me he is a consistent winner. For that reason, if we don't get Wall, i'll live with it.

How many times have you seen John Wall play?

Do you believe you have seen him enough to evaluate whether or not he has a "winners mentality?"

Do you believe that you can even tell whether or not a kid will have a winner's mentality on the collegiate level when he is just in High School?

What do you make of the occasions in which he has led his team to a championship of some form?

SEE- http://blogs.newsobserver.com/prepsnow/john-wall-scores-41-in-tournament-championship-game

Do you think it is appropriate to compare a Duke player that has won a national championship and has been to an All-Star game or two in the NBA to a high school player win it comes to "winners mentality?"

jma4life
05-17-2009, 03:44 AM
Grant Hill is probably one of if not the best, athletes to don a Duke uniform. I'm as big a Wall fan as anyone but I'm not going to say that Hill, a guy widely considered one of the best athletes in the NBA when healthy, is not the same type of athlete as Wall.


Agree that without having seen Wall play, you can't comment on whether he's a "winner," whatever that means.

FireOgilvie
05-17-2009, 03:58 AM
Going away from the whole Grant Hill thing, you still have to admit that Wall is an athletic freak for a point guard. He, along with Derrick Rose, are the two most athletic point guards I've personally ever seen.

Wall has a penchant for the spectacular; he likes to make the highlight reel play. I think that adds a lot to the (mostly deserved) hype.

ChicagoCrazy84
05-17-2009, 01:31 PM
I really would not understand the decision of John Wall if he ends up at Kentucky. What would baffle me even more (if he does go there) is why Calipari would still actively go after him with Eric Bledsoe giving him a commitment. That would be something completely unprecedented with two top 5 PG's in the same class going to the same school. It just seems to me that he (Calipari) is just bullying the system and showing everyone up on what he can do when it comes to recruiting. Most coaches when they are going after a couple recruits of the same position will tell the other, "thanks for considering, but no thanks. What does he tell Bledsoe at this point with Wall weighing his options? "You're are man right now, but..." I think Bledsoe has a great thing going for him right now at UK and that would really be shattered if Wall commits. He has Patterson and Cousins, and possibly Meeks as well whom he could lean on for help throughout the season and that could really help him develop. If Wall goes there, what happens? They are incredible for a year, Bledsoe gets his 10-15 min. then lose Wall, Patterson, maybe Meeks, maybe Cousins, and who does Bledsoe turn to when he is handed the reigns? This is a very confusing situation and it doesn't make sense that Calipari is doing this. I don't care for the guy whatsoever.

miramar
05-17-2009, 06:03 PM
This is a very confusing situation and it doesn't make sense that Calipari is doing this. I don't care for the guy whatsoever.

Can't disagree on your opinion of Coach Cal, but he may be doing it simply because he can. The guy wants to come in with a bang and create a recruiting powerhouse, which is absolutely necessary for a coach that recruits players who won't be around long. Wall might only play for a year, but he would help to create a recruiting pipeline.

houstondukie
05-17-2009, 06:16 PM
I really would not understand the decision of John Wall if he ends up at Kentucky. What would baffle me even more (if he does go there) is why Calipari would still actively go after him with Eric Bledsoe giving him a commitment. That would be something completely unprecedented with two top 5 PG's in the same class going to the same school. It just seems to me that he (Calipari) is just bullying the system and showing everyone up on what he can do when it comes to recruiting. Most coaches when they are going after a couple recruits of the same position will tell the other, "thanks for considering, but no thanks. What does he tell Bledsoe at this point with Wall weighing his options? "You're are man right now, but..." I think Bledsoe has a great thing going for him right now at UK and that would really be shattered if Wall commits. He has Patterson and Cousins, and possibly Meeks as well whom he could lean on for help throughout the season and that could really help him develop. If Wall goes there, what happens? They are incredible for a year, Bledsoe gets his 10-15 min. then lose Wall, Patterson, maybe Meeks, maybe Cousins, and who does Bledsoe turn to when he is handed the reigns? This is a very confusing situation and it doesn't make sense that Calipari is doing this. I don't care for the guy whatsoever.

Kentucky and Calipari will reload every year with the best talent. Bledsoe will never have to carry the team at Kentucky - he will always be surrounded with great talent, including some of the nation's best one-and-done players.

What should be concerning for Bledsoe is the continued recruitment of point guards in the 2010 and 2011 classes, among them Brandon Knight and Kyrie Irving.

ncexnyc
05-17-2009, 10:17 PM
Kentucky and Calipari will reload every year with the best talent. Bledsoe will never have to carry the team at Kentucky - he will always be surrounded with great talent, including some of the nation's best one-and-done players.

What should be concerning for Bledsoe is the continued recruitment of point guards in the 2010 and 2011 classes, among them Brandon Knight and Kyrie Irving.

Mr. Bledsoe made his bed, now he has to sleep in it. I realize that comes across rather harsh, but those are the facts and unless he has some type of out worked into his agreement, he'll have to play second fiddle to Mr. Wall, should Kentucky land John.

BlueinBlo
05-17-2009, 10:22 PM
Mr. Bledsoe made his bed, now he has to sleep in it. I realize that comes across rather harsh, but those are the facts and unless he has some type of out worked into his agreement, he'll have to play second fiddle to Mr. Wall, should Kentucky land John.

I honestly can not see when he signed that LOI. It just made no sense to me. There was no point for him to sign it. There was other schools recruiting him and would have loved to give him a scholarship if he decided to change after Wall made his decision. Cal brainwashed another recruit.

Duke #33
05-18-2009, 12:58 AM
Does not make sense why Bledsoe would sign with U.K. knowing that Calipari is recruiting Wall, and will probably continue recruiting the top pg in each class. With a team like Memphis, he would have know that he was their pg.

Franzez
05-18-2009, 02:13 PM
Does not make sense why Bledsoe would sign with U.K. knowing that Calipari is recruiting Wall, and will probably continue recruiting the top pg in each class. With a team like Memphis, he would have know that he was their pg.
Memphis is recruiting Joe Jackson in 2010, and Bledsoe would be going up against a hometown fan favorite for the job.

Bledsoe doesn't realize Caliparri recruits the top players for the PG position and Josh Selby will probably end up there at Kentucky.

Azdukefan
05-18-2009, 02:35 PM
Among these 2,400 posts, I am sure someone has answered this question but I will ask again. John has yet to qualify so; what score does he need to get past the clearinghouse and what score does he need to get into Duke (or are they one in the same-I would guess they would be different but am not sure)? I guess the reason I ask is because maybe John is simply hanging onto the last two schools (Kentucky and Miami) in case his scores do not meet Duke's requirements. Am I way off base?

roywhite
05-18-2009, 02:41 PM
Among these 2,400 posts, I am sure someone has answered this question but I will ask again. John has yet to qualify so; what score does he need to get past the clearinghouse and what score does he need to get into Duke (or are they one in the same-I would guess they would be different but am not sure)? I guess the reason I ask is because maybe John is simply hanging onto the last two schools (Kentucky and Miami) in case his scores do not meet Duke's requirements. Am I way off base?

I don't know the exact answer to that, and it's a privacy issue to some degree (though the poor guy's life is anything but private these days..), but my understanding was:

His academic record was better than Bledsoe's, so the SAT score he needed to go along with his GPA was a moderate hurdle (compared to Bledsoe).

Bluedog
05-18-2009, 02:42 PM
Among these 2,400 posts, I am sure someone has answered this question but I will ask again. John has yet to qualify so; what score does he need to get past the clearinghouse and what score does he need to get into Duke (or are they one in the same-I would guess they would be different but am not sure)? I guess the reason I ask is because maybe John is simply hanging onto the last two schools (Kentucky and Miami) in case his scores do not meet Duke's requirements. Am I way off base?

John needs something like a 760-780ish (math + verbal sections only) depending on what his GPA now is (previously reported, but I don't feel the need to repeat it). He should easily be able to do this and everybody expects he did. A 670 is 4th percentile, while an 810 is 15th percentile (can't find the percentiles in between). And, yes, I'd think that for him the clearinghouse score and the one to get into Duke for him is the same at this juncture, but everybody expects he'll do much better than the minimum required of him based on his GPA.

JasonEvans
05-18-2009, 02:48 PM
Among these 2,400 posts, I am sure someone has answered this question but I will ask again. John has yet to qualify so; what score does he need to get past the clearinghouse and what score does he need to get into Duke (or are they one in the same-I would guess they would be different but am not sure)? I guess the reason I ask is because maybe John is simply hanging onto the last two schools (Kentucky and Miami) in case his scores do not meet Duke's requirements. Am I way off base?

You would have to know his high school grades to know what score he needs on the SAT. The NCAA employs a sliding scale that allows high test scores to offset poor grades and high grade to offset poor test scores.

As for what he needs from a Duke standpoint, I am guessing that K and the basketball office have spoken extensively to the admissions office about John Wall and K has communicated to Wall what Duke expects from him in terms of academic achievement.

But, these are things that are private matters and I suspect we will never know any details about all this.

--Jason "academics and SAT scores could easily be the reason John has not picked a school" Evans

yancem
05-18-2009, 03:22 PM
Memphis is recruiting Joe Jackson in 2010, and Bledsoe would be going up against a hometown fan favorite for the job.

Bledsoe doesn't realize Caliparri recruits the top players for the PG position and Josh Selby will probably end up there at Kentucky.

According to Scout, Selby has committed to Tennessee and Joe Jackson isn't significantly more highly rated than Bledsoe. Add that Bledsoe will have a year of college experience, I don't think he should be overly concerned by Caliparri recruiting Jackson.

Now Kentucky is also listed as recruiting both Brandon Knight and Kyrie Irving. If either one of them signs with Kentucky, then Bledsoe would probably have something to worry about.

BD80
05-18-2009, 03:29 PM
... these are things that are private matters and I suspect we will never know any details about all this.

--Jason "academics and SAT scores could easily be the reason John has not picked a school" Evans

So you are saying the hundreds of posts criticizing the kid for prolonging this experience may be wrong? Inconceivable.

vango
05-18-2009, 04:03 PM
I've yet to post in this thread - was feeling left out so....

Came across this article which was mildly interesting - more interesting was the last post to the article (scroll to the bottom). Not sure if it is the one in the same but.....

http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2009/05/16/dukes-position-in-wall-sweepstakes-up-for-debate/

El_Diablo
05-18-2009, 04:15 PM
I've yet to post in this thread - was feeling left out so....

Came across this article which was mildly interesting - more interesting was the last post to the article (scroll to the bottom). Not sure if it is the one in the same but.....

http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2009/05/16/dukes-position-in-wall-sweepstakes-up-for-debate/

Just in case anyone posts a comment on that story (and subsequently becomes the new "last post"), I'll clarify it here. The last comment is by someone with a username of Brian Clifton which says:


Reports of John Wall possessing a predilection for Kentucky are erroneous. The preconceived notion that John can, and will only make a decision when he’s down to two choices is a fallacious assumption, as well.



The username also links to a twitter, apparently Clifton's: http://twitter.com/officiald1sprts

vango
05-18-2009, 04:27 PM
Good clarification and good idea. Firgured it had died out since last post was yesterday but were others to add it would have been confusing.

NYDukie
05-18-2009, 04:36 PM
As much has I have loved the constant posting, thank god though the long weekend is coming up and I can get away from all this chatter on the Wall front. That has to be the sentiment of many!!!

Greg_Newton
05-18-2009, 04:46 PM
Reports of John Wall possessing a predilection for Kentucky are erroneous. The preconceived notion that John can, and will only make a decision when he’s down to two choices is a fallacious assumption, as well.

Gotta live the diction and alliteration there. Perhaps this is a coded message to Duke fans that he knows UK fans have no hope of understanding? Safe way to keep everyone happy...:D

mr. synellinden
05-18-2009, 05:30 PM
Just in case anyone posts a comment on that story (and subsequently becomes the new "last post"), I'll clarify it here. The last comment is by someone with a username of Brian Clifton which says:



The username also links to a twitter, apparently Clifton's: http://twitter.com/officiald1sprts

Now this is on the Chronicle's Web version of the story:

UPDATE: After a spirited discussion in the comments section of this post, a message from a user named “Brian Clifton,” alluding to Wall’s advisor who was cited in the post, was posted with a link to Clifton’s official Twitter page. However, after speaking with Clifton on the phone moments ago, it is clear that the post in fact was not written by Clifton himself. The Chronicle Sports Blog apologizes for any confusion this might have caused.

Coming to ABC this fall, from the creators of Grey's Anatomy, a new primetime drama called Pursuing John Wall ...

El_Diablo
05-18-2009, 05:49 PM
Now this is on the Chronicle's Web version of the story:

UPDATE: After a spirited discussion in the comments section of this post, a message from a user named “Brian Clifton,” alluding to Wall’s advisor who was cited in the post, was posted with a link to Clifton’s official Twitter page. However, after speaking with Clifton on the phone moments ago, it is clear that the post in fact was not written by Clifton himself. The Chronicle Sports Blog apologizes for any confusion this might have caused.

Coming to ABC this fall, from the creators of Grey's Anatomy, a new primetime drama called Pursuing John Wall ...

Wow. Ridiculous.

miramar
05-18-2009, 08:38 PM
Coming to ABC this fall, from the creators of Grey's Anatomy, a new primetime drama called Pursuing John Wall ...

Actually, when this is all over I think that we will need a basketball version of Willis Morris's "The Courting of Marcus Dupree."

That's a really good book, BTW, even for people who don't like sports. Unfortunately, it seems that recruiting has become even worse since the book was written.

JasonEvans
05-18-2009, 10:05 PM
Actually, when this is all over I think that we will need a basketball version of Willis Morris's "The Courting of Marcus Dupree."

That's a really good book, BTW, even for people who don't like sports. Unfortunately, it seems that recruiting has become even worse since the book was written.

Former Georgia Tech head football coach Pepper Rodgers wrote a book (fiction) on recruiting that was pretty good. I read it when I was in college. It was called 4th and Long Gone and the center of the book was a recruiting battle between two state schools over a superstar running back. It was obvious to me that the book was about the recruiting of Herschel Walker, who had been at Georgia only a couple years earlier.

It has been 20+ years since I read 4th and Long Gone, but I recall it being a pretty good page-turner.

For a bit of a look at college basketball recruiting-- I seem to recall a fair amount of recruiting stuff Feinstein's "A Season on the Brink."

--Jason "wow, I have not read A Season on the Brink in decades... need to pick that up again soon" Evans

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NG6-wFUfL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

mo.st.dukie
05-18-2009, 11:27 PM
Now this is on the Chronicle's Web version of the story:

UPDATE: After a spirited discussion in the comments section of this post, a message from a user named “Brian Clifton,” alluding to Wall’s advisor who was cited in the post, was posted with a link to Clifton’s official Twitter page. However, after speaking with Clifton on the phone moments ago, it is clear that the post in fact was not written by Clifton himself. The Chronicle Sports Blog apologizes for any confusion this might have caused.

Coming to ABC this fall, from the creators of Grey's Anatomy, a new primetime drama called Pursuing John Wall ...

Which is exactly why you can't get too excited or depressed about something you read on the internet because many times the information will be false.

stickdog
05-19-2009, 01:48 AM
SLAM's "Sources" Say Wall Committed to UK Tonight (http://slamonline.com/online/college-hs/college/2009/05/breaking-news-john-wall-to-kentucky/)

Please no "I'm glad" posts, at least not yet. This is, after all, SLAM ONLINE.

FireOgilvie
05-19-2009, 02:04 AM
I had heard a lot of talk lately that he was going to commit to UK soon, so I'm not surprised by this. Too bad. It would have been a huge "upset" if Duke had actually landed him, especially since he was leaning towards Memphis initially. At least we were in it until the end. Wall and Clifton had a lot of good things to say about Duke and Coach K, which also only helps the recruiting perception. The one thing that bothers me is that we still have only 3 guards next year. Not ideal.

I wouldn't be surprised if Clifton comes out and denies the commitment, but I don't think he's going anywhere else.

micah75
05-19-2009, 05:46 AM
Five minutes since this scoop broke and the board hasn't melted down yet?

Well snap. Are there any other PGs out there we can get before the season starts? Is it too late? Jeepers. I'm bummed.

JasonEvans
05-19-2009, 07:31 AM
Whew-- thank goodness he is not going to Miami!!

--Jason " ;) " Evans

arnie
05-19-2009, 08:12 AM
The Wall commitment to KY is being broadcast by Raleigh radio this morning.

MIKESJ73
05-19-2009, 08:17 AM
http://kentucky.rivals.com/content.asp?cid=947244

Rivals now reporting it. Oh well, I guess Bledsoe will need to start praying that Meeks doesn't return.

NYDukie
05-19-2009, 08:24 AM
If this is actually the case that Wall is UK bound, can any of us really be that surprised? I understand there are about 2500 posts on this but I can't really say that I'm totally disappointed, assuming this is this real deal! If not, as I live in the NYC area and don't get any Carolina news, I do hope he miraculously winds up at Duke still.

As I mentioned above, I'm not surprised because he has always been a Calipari lean and as most recruits do, they commit the majority of the time to the COACH and not the school. And lastly, I don't feel totally used like that guy who takes out a girl to a real nice dinner and club, only that she went out with you only to have that really good dinner and get into that club, similar to how I felt when Patterson and Monroe seemed to be all over Duke at the party only to leave with UK and GU, respectively.

Ahhh, on to the 2010 PG recruits, come on down BRANDON KNIGHT and KYRIE IRVING (spellcheck) and be the ones who direct the best talent in place to a championship!!!

ice-9
05-19-2009, 08:50 AM
"Duke is a great program and is in a great situation next year, but desperately needs a point guard," said Clifton. "Miami has good players and desperately needs a point guard. Kentucky not only has a point guard in Liggins, who was recruited to be a point guard, but they have Bledsoe coming in who some people say is a comparable player to John.

"It's not like John is a guy who wants to take two or three years to figure it out and get things together. He needs to hit the ground running in short order. But John said to me, 'When I came to your program, I wasn't the guy. I had to listen to you and turned it around. It doesn't matter to me who is there.'

"I believe in John Wall as a person, forget basketball. If he believes in the situation, then I trust him and respect him. If he believes he can do it, that's all I need to hear."


Sounds like Clifton pushed hard for us, but it also sounds like Wall really wants to go to Kentucky. Good luck to the young man, I hope him success there!

JasonEvans
05-19-2009, 09:09 AM
Folks-- it is my fault for starting it but I would urge everyone to refrain from extensive discussions of the makeup of next year's team in this thread.

Lets leave this thread to discussions about John Wall only.

I, for one, will not be at all sad to see this thread slowly work its way to the bottom of this page and then fade into cyber-nothingness.

--Jason "I know there are some mods who are all in favor of just locking this puppy at this point-- but we will wait for the time being" Evans

Crisker
05-19-2009, 09:28 AM
Link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/basketball/ncaa/05/19/wall.kentucky/index.html

miramar
05-19-2009, 09:47 AM
I wish Wall the best. He has probably found the best fit for a quick jump to the NBA.

Dukefan4Life
05-19-2009, 09:54 AM
Well I woke up this morning turned on the tv and there on ESPN it said John wall commits to UK! well i can only say i knew it all along but im glad all of the hype and waiting is over!

DevilCastDownfromDurham
05-19-2009, 10:00 AM
Good luck, John. I know you'll be successful at UK next season and with whatever team is lucky enough to draft you. Throw a triple-double up against UNC next season for us. :D

KyDevilinIL
05-19-2009, 10:06 AM
Good. It's over.

Back to reality.

We can be pretty decent next season without him, although UK might have the potential to be scary good by the end of the year.

CameronBornAndBred
05-19-2009, 10:09 AM
I'm not unhappy about this at all. I said a few times in the Wall thread that I wasn't thrilled about us recruiting him do to his stated one and done position. Now we won't have to justify landing him. Several will say that K wanted him, and fought hard for him, so I should agree with K. I didn't on that choice, I don't on plenty of issues.
As far as Wall himself goes, and Ky, it will be interesting to see how he and they do next year. How will Bledsoe handle it? Best of luck to him.

One other thing, I am dreading the backlash of K losing this recruit. While I am happy that we didn't get him, I am not looking forward to all the posts about how K "has lost his touch". I don't buy that either. We have an honorable program with tough academics. It's a hard sell, I am grateful that he does the amazing job that he does year after year given the inherent restrictions. It also makes me prouder of the teams that we put on the floor. If we had landed Wall, I'm not sure I could have felt that way.

moonpie23
05-19-2009, 10:15 AM
good luck john....thank you for NOT going to UNC... :)


could bledsoe DE-commit?

ice-9
05-19-2009, 10:35 AM
One silver lining to the Wall cloud is that...for whatever reason, if Wall doesn't live up to the hype, it'll be on Calipari's resume not on Coach K's. Wall has an inordinate amount of hype and it is possible that he doesn't actually become a Derrick Rose.

Wasn't Kwame Brown a top draft pick once? :)

slower
05-19-2009, 10:38 AM
You can thank Worldwide Wes for this.....makes me wonder WHAT WAS BLEDSOE THINKING?

Amen, brother! This is part of the "new reality" of recruiting. It's one thing for a group (the DBR) composed of a large percentage of upper middle-class white people to say where they think guys like Wall SHOULD go, but that doesn't mean that's where they WANT to go or WILL go.

Worldwide Wes should not be underestimated.

And please don't bash me for "bringing race" into this. I'm just sying that people like Worldwide Wes are important in this process and they are a fact of recruiting. To deny it is to stick your head in the sand.

Break into small groups and discuss :)

flyingdutchdevil
05-19-2009, 11:03 AM
One silver lining to the Wall cloud is that...for whatever reason, if Wall doesn't live up to the hype, it'll be on Calipari's resume not on Coach K's. Wall has an inordinate amount of hype and it is possible that he doesn't actually become a Derrick Rose.

Wasn't Kwame Brown a top draft pick once? :)

True, but I'd still like to have Wall on my team...

Good luck to him, and here's to getting an awesome point guard for 2010!

SushiChef
05-19-2009, 11:06 AM
For some reason, I don't feel nearly as let down by the Wall situation as I did for the Patterson and Monroe commitments. Best of luck to John.

BlueintheFace
05-19-2009, 11:12 AM
For some reason, I don't feel nearly as let down by the Wall situation as I did for the Patterson and Monroe commitments. Best of luck to John.

Probably because the kid is a mercenary and not your average recruit looking for the same "good fit" most recruits are looking for.

Franzez
05-19-2009, 11:17 AM
Well at least we tried to get him but we got in way too late in his recruitment.

gw67
05-19-2009, 11:18 AM
Who is worldwide wes? Apologize if this is common knowledge but I refuse to read more than the final page of this amazing thread.

gw67

roywhite
05-19-2009, 11:22 AM
Who is worldwide wes? Apologize if this is common knowledge but I refuse to read more than the final page of this amazing thread.

gw67

http://www.kentucky.com/232/story/747413.html

An influential middle-man who has extensive ties to the NBA and Nike.

JasonEvans
05-19-2009, 12:06 PM
Lets move the discussions that are more about Kentucky than John Wall to this thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=294502#post294502), please.

Thanks.

-Jason

Devilsfan
05-19-2009, 12:11 PM
Better to have tried and failed than never tried at all.

Scorp4me
05-19-2009, 12:14 PM
Anyone reading this thread (is that even possible anymore) knows that I didn't want us recruiting Wall in the first place. Doesn't matter why or how or right or wrong, it's only an opinion. So I'm not upset that we missed out.

But what is going on over at Kentucky? Bledsoe and Wall? What are the kids thinking? Something just doesn't make sense. I think we all see that, but nobody can see what it is. I mean I know money has been thrown around, but this case was too high profile, he wouldn't be that stupid would he?

As for the actual disappointments. I hate we're so thin at the Guard position. I remember when Jason Williams was here we only had one til Duhon arrived. Then we only had one inside player when Shelden Williams arrived. As of late some would argue we had even less inside. Now that gets fixed and we're back to being thin at the guard. Not discussing team make up here, just as the recruitment of a point guard affects the team.

Last I hate what Cal is doing in the recruiting. I blame the NCAA. First coaches should know who will be and who won't be on their team at a much earlier date. That way they know if they need to recruit someone. Second, knowing that coaches should not be able to recruit more than their limit. Make a bad decision, sorry that's your fault not the kids. In this case two elite PG's committing to the same school, well that's just stupid on their fault. But it's the other kids who will suffer and it's not their fault. If you can't count on coaches to be ethical then the NCAA needs to step up and enforce it. Perhaps in the end it will with penalties for kids not graduating, etc. But if so I hope it's pointed out clearly and loudly.

Bluedog
05-19-2009, 12:21 PM
I'm normally NEVER upset about recruiting misses, but how the hell does Cal get BOTH Bledsoe and Wall. I'm not upset about losing one or the other. I'm actually not upset about losing both. I am, however, pretty upset that one Coach beat out K for... not one, but TWO top tier recruits... at the same position.

I certainly am not going to say that Coach K has lost his touch as some tend to do when overreacting to a recruiting miss. I will, however, say this...

1) K made it clear that we had no true PG
2) K made it clear that he was really going to try to remedy this
3) K recruited, not one, but two PG's
4) Both of those PG's joined a team that didn't make the NCAA tournament last year, doesn't have enough scholarships for all of the players already on the team, and has a new coach.... while Duke is sitting here with ZERO PG's, guaranteed playing time, and a lot of pieces in place.

I mean come on, that stinks.

K must be getting really really tired of losing these recruits that come down to one or two top tier schools late. I hope he wins the next battle, because that win column is looking pretty static of late. You can do it K! Do what you do best... reevaluate, make adjustments, approach the problem in a new way. Go Get 'em.

Uh, K never even offered Bledsoe so there's no way you could say we "lost" him since we never wanted him. Seems like we didn't offer him due to concerns in the academic realm. Yeah, we went hard after Wall, but that's only one recruit, not two.

I'm really really surprised Wall didn't announce a press conference to air on ESPNU, espn360, etc. and then take hats out of a bag and eliminate them one-by-one over a 20 minute period. I guess John doesn't want as much attention as I had thought. I am glad he chose not to hold a long press conference, though, as I personally think that they are over-the-top and unnecessary. Good luck to him, I have no hard feelings really...but I hope UK loses badly in every game as I'm not a Cal fan at all.

flyingdutchdevil
05-19-2009, 12:25 PM
Uh, K never even offered Bledsoe so there's no way you could say we "lost" him since we never wanted him. Seems like we didn't offer him due to concerns in the academic realm. Yeah, we went hard after Wall, but that's only one recruit, not two.

I realize that Wall is the second coming of "every great point guard to play NCAA basketball", but didn't he also have terrible grades like Bledsoe? Doesn't he still need to retake the ACTs or SATs?

I find it hard to believe that, with Duke's dire point guard needs and our clear involvement in Wall's recruitment, Bledsoe was not recruited due to academics. I'm sorry - I can't believe that.

Bluedog
05-19-2009, 12:33 PM
I realize that Wall is the second coming of "every great point guard to play NCAA basketball", but didn't he also have terrible grades like Bledsoe? Doesn't he still need to retake the ACTs or SATs?

I find it hard to believe that, with Duke's dire point guard needs and our clear involvement in Wall's recruitment, Bledsoe was not recruited due to academics. I'm sorry - I can't believe that.

According to sources that cited their GPA, Wall's GPA was at least 0.2 higher than Bledsoe. Maybe that's not terribly significant, or maybe it is. I don't know, but I don't think it's implausible to think that K thought Wall would be able to handle the academic side while Bledsoe could not based on conversations with them and a look through their transcripts. I'm not saying I have first-hand knowledge that that definitely was the case, but it's certainly possible it was. And yeah, let's be honest, the academic rules are bent more for players that the Coach really really wants - and K wanted Wall.

Bluedog
05-19-2009, 12:35 PM
Uh, K never even offered Bledsoe so there's no way you could say we "lost" him since we never wanted him. Seems like we didn't offer him due to concerns in the academic realm. Yeah, we went hard after Wall, but that's only one recruit, not two.

I'm really really surprised Wall didn't announce a press conference to air on ESPNU, espn360, etc. and then take hats out of a bag and eliminate them one-by-one over a 20 minute period. I guess John doesn't want as much attention as I had thought. I am glad he chose not to hold a long press conference, though, as I personally think that they are over-the-top and unnecessary. Good luck to him, I have no hard feelings really...but I hope UK loses badly in every game as I'm not a Cal fan at all.



Hi,

I don't really care what Kentucky does. For that matter I don't really care what UNC does. I care much, much, much more what Duke does. I am a bit angry that many posters on here have essentially thrown the kids we do have on board under the bus. It takes more than just athletic ability to win basketball games. We are going to have a gritty, battle tested bunch out there. Nobody is happy that we missed out on some players coming to Duke. In the end I think they will be the ones who will lose out. Nobody is happy with "just" a sweet sixteen showing. However, Jon will have a year at the helm under his belt. The NCAA tournament is more of a half-court game, something I think Duke will play more of if Jon is in fact the point guard. We saw glimpses of speed, agility, and greatness in our other guards. Why aren't people looking at this at the opportunity for those young men who are already Blue Devils to step up? All I kept reading about was how thin the Devils were at the post, how we can't win without post presence. Isn't there going to be some awesome post presence next year? I can't wait for the season to get going!!

GO DUKE!

I definitely agree, but this is the john wall recruitment thread and not the 2009-10 team thread. But obviously we all care far more about OUR team than UK's. I'm definitely optimistic for next season and look forward to seeing our guys playing great ball.

Kewlswim
05-19-2009, 12:38 PM
According to sources that cited their GPA, Wall's GPA was at least 0.2 higher than Bledsoe. Maybe that's not terribly significant, or maybe it is. I don't know, but I don't think it's implausible to think that K thought Wall would be able to handle the academic side while Bledsoe could not based on conversations with them and a look through their transcripts. I'm not saying I have first-hand knowledge that that definitely was the case, but it's certainly possible it was. And yeah, let's be honest, the academic rules are bent more for players that the Coach really really wants - and K wanted Wall.

Hi,

And John Wall really wanted to play for Coach Cal more than Duke. So be it. We unfortunately don't get every player we want. Gee those guys are misguided or what? :D

GO DUKE!

RelativeWays
05-19-2009, 01:09 PM
I'm just glad its over. Yay.

JBDuke
05-19-2009, 01:14 PM
Folks, per Jason Evans's posts and some discussions on the mod board, we're trying to steer posts that are about Kentucky into the Kentucky thread, and posts about Duke's team next year into the MBB 2009-2010 thread. I've gone through the last couple of pages in this thread and moved about 25 posts into those other two threads, so if you're looking for one of your posts, it's probably there.

Please only post in this thread if you have something further to say about the John Wall recruitment by Duke. Thanks!

Ian
05-19-2009, 01:37 PM
Really not surprised, and I held my tongue until the situation played itself out, but I was really dubious of him and all his baggage all along.

There is no reason for a player that is obvious one and done to come to Duke. Most of the advantages that Duke offers presupposes someone for whom the college experience is important, not something one has to reluctantly put up with for a year in order to get to the NBA.

For the latter, Duke and another program are interchangeable, and perhaps even at a disadvantage if the other program is more willing to push the ethical boundaries.

SupaDave
05-19-2009, 01:46 PM
Really not surprised, and I held my tongue until the situation played itself out, but I was really dubious of him and all his baggage all along.

There is no reason for a player that is obvious one and done to come to Duke. Most of the advantages that Duke offers presupposes someone for whom the college experience is important, not something one has to reluctantly put up with for a year in order to get to the NBA.

For the latter, Duke and another program are interchangeable, and perhaps even at a disadvantage if the other program is more willing to push the ethical boundaries.

Baggage? What baggage? What's your point? He just committed to one of the most 'prestigous' programs in the country - I think he'll be fine. The rest is on him as it would be anywhere else.

Patrick Patterson was supposed to be one and done - you see where he's at...

Vincetaylor
05-19-2009, 01:53 PM
Really not surprised, and I held my tongue until the situation played itself out, but I was really dubious of him and all his baggage all along.

There is no reason for a player that is obvious one and done to come to Duke. Most of the advantages that Duke offers presupposes someone for whom the college experience is important, not something one has to reluctantly put up with for a year in order to get to the NBA.

For the latter, Duke and another program are interchangeable, and perhaps even at a disadvantage if the other program is more willing to push the ethical boundaries.

Agree with you 100%. The 1 year rule puts schools like Duke at a significant disadvantage. One of the main reasons you go to Duke is for the academics. If you are just planning on going to school for one year, it's pretty obvious that the academics aren't high on your list of priorities. I have nothing against guys who feel that way. Dwight Howard, Kobe, and Lebron are doing just fine without college degrees. If I were a sure fire lottery pick like Wall coming out of high school, I would go to a college where I could best showcase my skills and the school that would be the most fun. Wall could have showcased his skills at Duke, but he definitely would have more fun at a long list of other places.

mgtr
05-19-2009, 03:45 PM
OK, we had 100+ pages of the manic phase. Will we now get 100+ pages of the depression phase? I hope not. The mods will surely lock this thread if it goes on more than a few days.
It will be very interesting to watch UK this year.

BlueintheFace
05-19-2009, 04:00 PM
Uh, K never even offered Bledsoe so there's no way you could say we "lost" him since we never wanted him. Seems like we didn't offer him due to concerns in the academic realm. Yeah, we went hard after Wall, but that's only one recruit, not two.

I'm really really surprised Wall didn't announce a press conference to air on ESPNU, espn360, etc. and then take hats out of a bag and eliminate them one-by-one over a 20 minute period. I guess John doesn't want as much attention as I had thought. I am glad he chose not to hold a long press conference, though, as I personally think that they are over-the-top and unnecessary. Good luck to him, I have no hard feelings really...but I hope UK loses badly in every game as I'm not a Cal fan at all.

hahaha. Yah, we only lose recruits that we offer. Sure. If you would prefer, you could say that we just lost the opportunity. I am not interested in semantics.

Additionally, I have refrained from extensively discussing Bledsoe's academics because frankly I don't know anything about them. I am becoming frustrated with those who are citing Bledsoe's academic issues as a reason why we didn't get/ go after him. Does ANYBODY have ANY information on his scores or academic standing? If so, I would be interested to know what they were. If it is premium information, I understand. If you do not know about Bledsoe's score, PLEASE DO NOT pretend to. As far as I am concerned, we recruited Bledsoe, Kentucky then recruited Bledsoe, Kentucky offered Bledsoe, and shortly thereafter got a commitment. He was one of only TWO recruits we were still looking at.

geraldsneighbor
05-19-2009, 04:28 PM
hahaha. Yah, we only lose recruits that we offer. Sure. If you would prefer, you could say that we just lost the opportunity. I am not interested in semantics.

Additionally, I have refrained from extensively discussing Bledsoe's academics because frankly I don't know anything about them. I am becoming frustrated with those who are citing Bledsoe's academic issues as a reason why we didn't get/ go after him. Does ANYBODY have ANY information on his scores or academic standing? If so, I would be interested to know what they were. If it is premium information, I understand. If you do not know about Bledsoe's score, PLEASE DO NOT pretend to. As far as I am concerned, we recruited Bledsoe, Kentucky then recruited Bledsoe, Kentucky offered Bledsoe, and shortly thereafter got a commitment. He was one of only TWO recruits we were still looking at.


I wonder if he is still happy he chose UK? I am concerned how thin we will be in times in the back court. Really we only have one SF to boot with a host of unproven 4 and 5 men. I think it'll help Kyle not having to be on the interior as much but at the same time his minutes even in non-conference games will be much higher than even this year.

Ian
05-19-2009, 06:08 PM
Baggage? What baggage? What's your point? He just committed to one of the most 'prestigous' programs in the country - I think he'll be fine. The rest is on him as it would be anywhere else.

Patrick Patterson was supposed to be one and done - you see where he's at...

Seriously? You think he has no baggage? I mean, of all the issues that has been hashed over in this thread, you think he has no baggage at all?

Bluedog
05-19-2009, 06:16 PM
I am becoming frustrated with those who are citing Bledsoe's academic issues as a reason why we didn't get/ go after him. Does ANYBODY have ANY information on his scores or academic standing? If so, I would be interested to know what they were. If it is premium information, I understand. If you do not know about Bledsoe's score, PLEASE DO NOT pretend to. As far as I am concerned, we recruited Bledsoe, Kentucky then recruited Bledsoe, Kentucky offered Bledsoe, and shortly thereafter got a commitment. He was one of only TWO recruits we were still looking at.

Yes, I cited and provided an article concerning Bledsoe's academic situation today. A 17 is 25th percentile of everybody who take the ACT, not just college-bound students.


Bledsoe has qualified academically for Kentucky:

http://blog.al.com/birmingham-news-sports/2009/05/parker_point_guard_eric_bledso.html
Kentucky basketball signee Eric Bledsoe has made the grades he needs in his final high school courses to be eligible to play as a college freshman next season, Parker High School coach Maurice Ford said this morning. [...] Bledsoe [...] scored a 17 on his ACT test earlier.

DDB4208
05-19-2009, 06:16 PM
Wish we could have had him. Didn't think we would. Glad it is over. End of discussion IMO. The guy that we should be focusing on getting is not in NC. He's in Iowa.

Duke #33
05-19-2009, 06:28 PM
He's in Iowa.

I'm 99 percent sure you are talking about HB.

El_Diablo
05-19-2009, 06:54 PM
I'm 99 percent sure you are talking about HB.

I'm 99 percent sure that HB = Harrison Barnes.

Although Knight might be a more pressing need next year...

DevilCastDownfromDurham
05-19-2009, 06:55 PM
Wish we could have had him. Didn't think we would. Glad it is over. End of discussion IMO. The guy that we should be focusing on getting is not in NC. He's in Iowa.

There's a kid in Florida (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3209418) I'm just as interested in. I wanted Wall in the worst way, but two genuine scholar-athletes like Knight and Barnes to build around would put Duke back on top on and off the court.

DDB4208
05-19-2009, 08:18 PM
I'm 99 percent sure you are talking about HB.

You are 100 percent correct.

Welcome2DaSlopes
05-19-2009, 08:42 PM
No one said this yet but do you think Coach K missing or delaying his visit had a bad effect?? i think John being a UNC fan really couldn't see himself as a Dukie he had all good reason to come to duke( to lazy to list) and he still chose UK thats make me kind of mad haha in a funny way

rotogod00
05-19-2009, 09:54 PM
There's a kid in Florida (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3209418) I'm just as interested in. I wanted Wall in the worst way, but two genuine scholar-athletes like Knight and Barnes to build around would put Duke back on top on and off the court.

let's just cross our fingers that we snag one. and if it's only one, i'd prefer knight. just see PG as such a pressing need.

78Devil
05-19-2009, 10:11 PM
This John Wall thread has been so LONG that I have not read each item.

But I have to confess that when I heard it came down to Kentucky, Duke and Miami, I thought we had him. Kentucky had competition at the position, he was supposed to want to stay close to home, and Miami was not enough of a showcase.

I can't help but believe that picking Kentucky over us is a major slap to our program.

I can't explain it, but I'm not so sad about losing Wall as I am about the fact that we couldn't get him. Does that resonate with any of the rest of you long timers? Its just hard to accept that when our program has a clear need at point guard, and a competing program does not, they nonetheless get the recruit. Its just not a good sign.

I'm sorry I'm so negative, but its just the way I'm feeling right now.

dukelifer
05-19-2009, 10:22 PM
This John Wall thread has been so LONG that I have not read each item.

But I have to confess that when I heard it came down to Kentucky, Duke and Miami, I thought we had him. Kentucky had competition at the position, he was supposed to want to stay close to home, and Miami was not enough of a showcase.

I can't help but believe that picking Kentucky over us is a major slap to our program.

I can't explain it, but I'm not so sad about losing Wall as I am about the fact that we couldn't get him. Does that resonate with any of the rest of you long timers? Its just hard to accept that when our program has a clear need at point guard, and a competing program does not, they nonetheless get the recruit. Its just not a good sign.

I'm sorry I'm so negative, but its just the way I'm feeling right now.

No - it does not resonate. Wall was going to Memphis and then Cal left and he decided to look around. Duke had a shot but a long shot. From what I can tell, KY desperately needs a point guard as well- at least an NBA quality point guard. I just do not see why this is so surprising.

Atlanta Duke
05-19-2009, 11:07 PM
This John Wall thread has been so LONG that I have not read each item.

But I have to confess that when I heard it came down to Kentucky, Duke and Miami, I thought we had him. Kentucky had competition at the position, he was supposed to want to stay close to home, and Miami was not enough of a showcase.

I can't help but believe that picking Kentucky over us is a major slap to our program.

I can't explain it, but I'm not so sad about losing Wall as I am about the fact that we couldn't get him. Does that resonate with any of the rest of you long timers? Its just hard to accept that when our program has a clear need at point guard, and a competing program does not, they nonetheless get the recruit. Its just not a good sign.

I'm sorry I'm so negative, but its just the way I'm feeling right now.

What is not a good sign to me is that to maintain the level of performance to which the program aspires the decision apparently has been made to recruit one & done players.

I long ago rationalized a first class academic institution bending traditional admission standards in recruiting on the ground there are more talents to consider than SAT & ACT scores in building a multi-talented class of students, but if recruiting rent a players who have no apparent intent of getting a degree from the school for which they play for a year is what it takes to succeed then maybe that cost outweighs the benefits of getting back to at least the second weekend of the tournament.

Bob Green
05-19-2009, 11:14 PM
....but if recruiting rent a players who have no intent of getting a degree is what it takes to succeed then maybe that cost outweighs the benefits of getting back to at least the second weekend of the tournament.

I'm one of the minority who is happy John Wall didn't decide to play basketball at Duke. Your post sums up my thoughts accurately. However, I firmly believe Coach K and Staff can build a team that will compete for the National Championship with all the players being student-athletes. Perhaps I am wrong, but I do not think so.

I really hope the NBA changes their rules and recommences allowing players to go straight from high school to the league. I view that path as a win-win situation for the NCAA and NBA.

FireOgilvie
05-19-2009, 11:19 PM
What is not a good sign to me is that to maintain the level of performance to which the program aspires the decision apparently has been made to recruit one & done players.

I long ago rationalized a first class academic institution bending traditional admission standards in recruiting on the ground there are more talents to consider than SAT & ACT scores in building a multi-talented class of students, but if recruiting rent a players who have no intent of getting a degree is what it takes to succeed then maybe that cost outweighs the benefits of getting back to at least the second weekend of the tournament.

Recruiting a single "one and done" does not make a trend. I wouldn't worry about it. Remember, this is Coach K we're talking about. He's not going to turn into Calipari or even Thad Matta.

Duke has looked at several guys with one and done potential (Patterson, Monroe, Boynton), but the first two went to school for at least two years, and we'll see what happens with Boynton. The fact is that due to the NBA's collective bargaining ruling, there are several guys every year that leave after their first year for the draft. If you go after the best talent, it's almost impossible to completely stay away from one year players.

Right now we're looking at Brandon Knight and Harrison Barnes. Both are excellent students. Are you opposed to recruiting them because they have enough talent to possibly go to the NBA after one year?

Edit: Bob Green, are you opposed to recruiting Barnes and Knight? I guarantee you neither one gets a degree - unless they come back from the NBA in the summers. I wonder what people think about these two.

Atlanta Duke
05-19-2009, 11:35 PM
Right now we're looking at Brandon Knight and Harrison Barnes. Both are excellent students. Are you opposed to recruiting them because they have enough talent to possibly go to the NBA after one year?



It is not a matter of "having enough talent" to go to the NBA - it is a matter of having no apparent intent of hanging around for more than one year. I know playing in the NBA is the profession to which players aspire but the mandatory one year of NCAA servitude before you can turn pro is a joke.

Bob Green
05-19-2009, 11:44 PM
Edit: Bob Green, are you opposed to recruiting Barnes and Knight? I guarantee you neither one gets a degree - unless they come back from the NBA in the summers. I wonder what people think about these two.

No! I am not against recruiting Harrison Barnes and Brandon Knight. In fact, those are the type of players we should be pursuing. Brandon Knight is an exceptional student at an elite private high school and Harrison Barnes comes from a family that stresses academics first. They are both Top 5 recruits who will most likely leave college early and earn millions in the NBA. My point is that while they are in college they will be student-athletes serious about their course load. I expect both will eventually earn a degree either during summer sessions or after their NBA careers are over.

Kedsy
05-19-2009, 11:47 PM
Wall could have showcased his skills at Duke, but he definitely would have more fun at a long list of other places.

Well, I don't know. I went to Duke and I had a great deal of fun.

rotogod00
05-19-2009, 11:53 PM
Recruiting a single "one and done" does not make a trend. I wouldn't worry about it. Remember, this is Coach K we're talking about. He's not going to turn into Calipari or even Thad Matta.

Duke has looked at several guys with one and done potential (Patterson, Monroe, Boynton), but the first two went to school for at least two years, and we'll see what happens with Boynton. The fact is that due to the NBA's collective bargaining ruling, there are several guys every year that leave after their first year for the draft. If you go after the best talent, it's almost impossible to completely stay away from one year players.

Right now we're looking at Brandon Knight and Harrison Barnes. Both are excellent students. Are you opposed to recruiting them because they have enough talent to possibly go to the NBA after one year?

Edit: Bob Green, are you opposed to recruiting Barnes and Knight? I guarantee you neither one gets a degree - unless they come back from the NBA in the summers. I wonder what people think about these two.

You HAVE to recruit the Knights and Barneses of the world

DUKIE V(A)
05-19-2009, 11:57 PM
Count me among those who are disappointed that we didn't land Wall and/or Bledsoe. I wish them no ill will but do not want to see Kentucky do well. At this point, I'm ready to move on and focus on the guys we got.

I see this as (potentially) our best team since the JJ/Sheldon team (despite the loss of Henderson).

I like what the two incoming freshman bring to the table (especially Plumlee who I think adds a lot of athleticism on both ends of the floor).

I think Singler is a first team All-American.

I see Scheyer as an improved and even more confident player (and he has always been a quality player).

E-mail is a dynamic player and a potential difference maker on both ends of the court.

Smith has tremendous potential. He was playing really high quality basketball down the stretch. I see a much improved player after another summer of work.

We have a lot of depth at the big man position for the first time in a long time.

We have a hungry team, coaching staff, and fan base.

Let's not sell this team short.

FireOgilvie
05-20-2009, 12:44 AM
It is not a matter of "having enough talent" to go to the NBA - it is a matter of having no apparent intent of hanging around for more than one year. I know playing in the NBA is the profession to which players aspire but the mandatory one year of NCAA servitude before you can turn pro is a joke.

I agree that the NBA high school entry rule needs to be changed.


No! I am not against recruiting Harrison Barnes and Brandon Knight. In fact, those are the type of players we should be pursuing. Brandon Knight is an exceptional student at an elite private high school and Harrison Barnes comes from a family that stresses academics first. They are both Top 5 recruits who will most likely leave college early and earn millions in the NBA. My point is that while they are in college they will be student-athletes serious about their course load. I expect both will eventually earn a degree either during summer sessions or after their NBA careers are over.

I agree with this. The problem I have is that it's completely a matter of perception when it comes to approval of recruiting players like this. Some one and dones are okay, while some are not. Brandon Knight is a one and done, but no one has any problem going after him because he gets good grades at a good school. He's at one extreme. John Wall's grades might have been a red flag, but if he had a 3.2 GPA, would that have changed people's minds? 3.6? Where is the cut-off? If he has a nice smile and friendly, outgoing attitude, will the cut-off be lower? It's possible that one player with a 2.8 GPA would participate in class at Duke and add to the academic experience, while another with a 4.0 in high school would sleep in the back, but because he was naturally more intelligent, pass all his classes. It's actually impossible for an outsider that has never spoken with a recruit to know what kind of student-athlete he will be. Luckily, we pay coaches and administrators to do this and make those decisions for us. So far, I have no reason to doubt their ability to make good decisions.

Edit: The most ironic thing about the John Wall recruitment, to me, was the fact that Clifton, his "handler" (!!!) actually pushed for him to attend Duke.

Devilsfan
05-20-2009, 06:11 AM
Good luck to Mr. Wall The article on the front page is very insightful. Duke basketball will be fine. Who's to say our Nolan Smith doesn't step up big time! I sure hope so. I like him a heck of alot better than some unknown highly touted recruit. That's it. Anything further about our recruitment for 09 would probably be pointless, imo.

weezie
05-20-2009, 07:46 AM
Aren't we done beating this dead horse yet?

formerdukeathlete
05-20-2009, 09:02 AM
No! I am not against recruiting Harrison Barnes and Brandon Knight. In fact, those are the type of players we should be pursuing. Brandon Knight is an exceptional student at an elite private high school and Harrison Barnes comes from a family that stresses academics first. They are both Top 5 recruits who will most likely leave college early and earn millions in the NBA. My point is that while they are in college they will be student-athletes serious about their course load. I expect both will eventually earn a degree either during summer sessions or after their NBA careers are over.

can a recruit fill a roster spot K needs and contribute to the team, help it win, within the time frame the kid is likely to be around? if yes, then

Is the recruit a very solid student?

If the answer to both is yes, then we have a pretty good chance, and the kid would have a good chance of flourishing in his time at Duke, and going on and having a successful life, including, possibly, coming back and graduating from Duke. Think Luol Deng.

Brandon Knight, the answer to both questions is yes. He is probably good enough to play a lot as a freshman, so even if he stays one year, he has helped the program and Duke win. He is a very solid student.

John Wall, with all due respect, is not the same caliber of student, and, therefore, the answer to the second part of the question is no.

CameronBornAndBred
05-20-2009, 09:36 AM
The N&O's Caulton Tudor has an article addressing the possible impact of Wall going elsewhere on all of the triangle schools, not just Duke. Not sure why he's written it in the Charlotte Observer, but it's his take on the situation. Nothing new, just another opinion.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/college_hoops/story/734254.html

miramar
05-20-2009, 10:15 AM
The N&O's Caulton Tudor has an article addressing the possible impact of Wall going elsewhere on all of the triangle schools, not just Duke. Not sure why he's written it in the Charlotte Observer, but it's his take on the situation. Nothing new, just another opinion.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/college_hoops/story/734254.html

That's an interesting article about Wall, but I wouldn't make too much about the fact that Kentucky was able to get a big recruit out of the triangle. Because of Wall's particular situation, he got very little interest from UNC and only late interest from Duke, so that won't repeat itself very often.

formerdukeathlete
05-20-2009, 11:20 AM
............The problem I have is that it's completely a matter of perception when it comes to approval of recruiting players like this. Some one and dones are okay, while some are not. Brandon Knight is a one and done, but no one has any problem going after him because he gets good grades at a good school. He's at one extreme. John Wall's grades might have been a red flag, but if he had a 3.2 GPA, would that have changed people's minds? 3.6? Where is the cut-off? If he has a nice smile and friendly, outgoing attitude, will the cut-off be lower? It's possible that one player with a 2.8 GPA would participate in class at Duke and add to the academic experience, while another with a 4.0 in high school would sleep in the back, but because he was naturally more intelligent, pass all his classes. It's actually impossible for an outsider that has never spoken with a recruit to know what kind of student-athlete he will be. Luckily, we pay coaches and administrators to do this and make those decisions for us. So far, I have no reason to doubt their ability to make good decisions.

......

At this point in time, the Duke admin. seems to be very lenient, hands-on, yes, but very lenient with respect to Football and Basketball admissions. It is to the point that recruiting a player who sweeps up the bottom of the permissible range can often be an exercise in frustration. Marginal students typically do not enjoy the Duke experience (talk with Chris Kennedy), and generally are not as interested in attending Duke in the first place. Yes, you can get a marginal student through Duke or keep them eligible, with a lot of hand-holding, tutoring, monitoring. Recruiting within the allowable range (really broad at this point) without prioritizing the smarter kids who meet the basketball roster needs criteria actually lower yields. Football learned that lesson in the 09 class, where they lost several top recruits (top 30 ranked in their positions) supposedly interested in Duke, had Duke on the final list up to signing day, but who chose other less academically rigorous schools. They had 950 SATs the admissions office was willing to accept. This year, in Football, Cut is looking more at who is the best academic-football fit, rather than just who he can get in and then the best position fit. And, he is getting top recruits as a result. Olaniyan, Snead are excellent students. The results, yield, of higher ranked players looks promising.

One and dones which fit the roster needs and who are good students - think also Corey Maggette - high SATs.

SupaDave
05-20-2009, 11:37 AM
That's an interesting article about Wall, but I wouldn't make too much about the fact that Kentucky was able to get a big recruit out of the triangle. Because of Wall's particular situation, he got very little interest from UNC and only late interest from Duke, so that won't repeat itself very often.

Technically BOTH of our recruits this year are kids from NC. Kelly is all the way legit and Plumlee by way of Indiana... Before it's all said and done Marshall will be a true NC kid.

allenmurray
05-20-2009, 11:42 AM
The N&O's Caulton Tudor has an article addressing the possible impact of Wall going elsewhere on all of the triangle schools, not just Duke. Not sure why he's written it in the Charlotte Observer, but it's his take on the situation. Nothing new, just another opinion.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/college_hoops/story/734254.html

Caulton Tudor? Didn't he retire 10 years ago? Or was that just when he should have retired?

Greg_Newton
05-21-2009, 07:06 PM
Doesn't seem very likely Wall would actually stay three years, but still...

http://www.kentucky.com/818/story/802751.html

Bledsoe... whyyyy.....

BlueinBlo
06-01-2009, 08:58 PM
The Latest UK Rumor: John Wall to Greece?

http://www.allkyhoops.com/2009/06/latest-uk-rumor-john-wall-to-greece.html

JasonEvans
06-02-2009, 09:32 AM
The Latest UK Rumor: John Wall to Greece?

http://www.allkyhoops.com/2009/06/latest-uk-rumor-john-wall-to-greece.html

Wall will get qualified.

The comments on that site though, are quite amusing. The UK fan base is pretty darn divided on the win-at-all-costs attitude of Mr. Calipari.

--Jason "Wall to Greece... I wonder if Brandon Jennings draft position this year will affect that" Evans

pfrduke
06-02-2009, 10:01 PM
Jason "Wall to Greece... I wonder if Brandon Jennings draft position this year will affect that" Evans

In which way? CW is that Jennings doesn't make it past 10, and it's hard to say whether he'd be materially higher or lower if he spent the past year in college.

roywhite
06-02-2009, 10:59 PM
I'm reading that it's also not clear whether Eric Bledsoe has qualified academically yet to play as a freshman at UK. Imagine neither Wall nor Bledsoe playing for UK next year.

Wheat/"/"/"
07-01-2009, 12:20 PM
Wall will get qualified.

--Jason "Wall to Greece... I wonder if Brandon Jennings draft position this year will affect that" Evans

OK, Jason.

It's now July, has Wall qualified?

SupaDave
07-01-2009, 12:22 PM
OK, Jason.

It's now July, has Wall qualified?

Do we care? And all indications appear to be yes...