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bucketsallday
10-21-2008, 04:31 PM
The blog Ballin is a Habit is doing their top 25 countdown, and they had Duke at 9. Pretty good preview too.

Team preview here (http://ballinisahabit.blogspot.com/2008/10/no-9-duke-2008-2009-team-preview.html)

Bob Green
10-21-2008, 05:04 PM
While the overall write-up wasn't bad, they completely missed the mark on Jon Scheyer:


Scheyer had a lot of hype coming out of high school, but has yet to really live up to the billing. He is a solid shooter and crafty offensively, but struggles defensively at this level.

When will people stop undervaluing Scheyer? He is a critical member of Duke's triumvirate and every bit as important to success as Singler and Henderson. These three players will be the core of this season's team.

bdh21
10-21-2008, 05:11 PM
When will people stop undervaluing Scheyer?

When people start knowing what to look for when they watch basketball.

dukebballcamper90-91
10-21-2008, 08:04 PM
I'm not as sold on Jon like most of you guys either. He does appear to have a great basketball IQ. I would like to see him be more aggressive on both ends of the floor, he pump fakes more than Kevin Mchale. I do think he needs to be on the floor a lot and I think he will do a lot of our decision making in crunch time.

mgtr
10-21-2008, 08:53 PM
For not being sold on Jon, you sure do see a lot of positives in him.

FireOgilvie
10-21-2008, 09:24 PM
No one ever mentions Pocius.

Bob Green
10-21-2008, 10:03 PM
I'm not as sold on Jon....I would like to see him be more aggressive on both ends of the floor...

On the offensive end of the floor, Scheyer had the best Assist/Turnover Ratio (2.24/1) on the team and the best PPS (1.53). He also made .889% of his Free Throw attempts and averaged double digit points per game.

On the defensive end of the floor, Scheyer was third on the team with 46 steals, behind Nelson (53) and Paulus (50). Jon was the team's fourth leading rebounder (134) with 99 of those boards being defensive boards.

I believe Jon Scheyer is already aggressive on both ends of the floor.

MChambers
10-22-2008, 10:38 AM
On the offensive end of the floor, Scheyer had the best Assist/Turnover Ratio (2.24/1) on the team and the best PPS (1.53). He also made .889% of his Free Throw attempts and averaged double digit points per game.

On the defensive end of the floor, Scheyer was third on the team with 46 steals, behind Nelson (53) and Paulus (50). Jon was the team's fourth leading rebounder (134) with 99 of those boards being defensive boards.

I believe Jon Scheyer is already aggressive on both ends of the floor.

I agree with all of your points, but feel compelled to point out that .889% was Chris Burgess's free throw percentage. Scheyer's is 88.9%.

2535Miles
10-22-2008, 11:16 AM
While the overall write-up wasn't bad, they completely missed the mark on Jon Scheyer:

When will people stop undervaluing Scheyer? He is a critical member of Duke's triumvirate and every bit as important to success as Singler and Henderson. These three players will be the core of this season's team.
The blog did list Scheyer as one of the three key returnees. Perhaps he/she/they just didn't do a good job echoing that sentiment in the article. I can't wait to see him play this year!

Bluedog
10-22-2008, 12:36 PM
Scheyer is possibly the smartest player I've ever seen. He has a knack for being at the right place at the right time and does all the little things well - hits free throws, plays good defense (particularly off the ball, I feel), can distribute the ball well, shoots well, etc. He does pump fake a heck of a late, but so does JJ. It's usually quite affective and Jon is quite good at getting fouled on three point shots and is money from the charity stripe which is KEY is late game situations as we've learned. It seems shocking to me that we never hear anybody (except Jumbo) even entertain the idea that Jon may play in the NBA. He's obviously not a lottery pick or anything (probably wouldn't be drafted at all), but if he improves a couple areas of his game, there is certainly a role he could play at the next level. At this level, right now, he shoots well, plays solid defense particularly in help situations, is an underrated dribbler and passer, and rebounds decently for a guard. I think Scheyer is phenomenal and has lived up to the "hype" - he's just not a particularly flashy player so some might not notice it as much, IMO.

MChambers
10-22-2008, 01:08 PM
It seems shocking to me that we never hear anybody (except Jumbo) even entertain the idea that Jon may play in the NBA.

I agree. I think he'll have a long NBA career. Probably be a second round pick.

davekay1971
10-22-2008, 01:42 PM
Scheyer is one of the smartest and most well rounded basketball players I've ever seen. He's got Grant Hill's mind and skill set without the awe-inspiring physical gifts (though Jon is, without a doubt, a great athlete). Jon does so many things well, but he does them so smoothly, and so much within the flow of the game, that he almost goes unnoticed. Then, at the end of the game, you realize that he had 14 points, 6 boards, and 4 assists in 25 minutes of play.

The kid is one of those ultimate glue guys, and will be crucial to Duke's success this year. A writer who states that he hasn't lived up to his potential doesn't know basketball, and clearly thinks that the only measure of success is the ppg statline.

bucketsallday
10-22-2008, 10:18 PM
I don't know about a long NBA career. Scheyer does a lot of things well, but you have to be great at something to make it in the NBA. He needs to prove that he can be a big time scorer, or a big time playmaker, or an absolute lock down defender a la Bruce Bowen. Just because he is a pretty good shooter and a pretty good passer and a pretty good defender in the ACC is not going to impress many NBA scouts.

He kind of strikes me as a Miles Simon type of player - someone that is perfectly cut out for the college game. There really is no arguing the kid is a good basketball player, but to say he is going to have a long NBA career based on what he has done in his first two years at Duke is pushing it.

Jumbo
10-22-2008, 11:05 PM
I don't know about a long NBA career. Scheyer does a lot of things well, but you have to be great at something to make it in the NBA. He needs to prove that he can be a big time scorer, or a big time playmaker, or an absolute lock down defender a la Bruce Bowen. Just because he is a pretty good shooter and a pretty good passer and a pretty good defender in the ACC is not going to impress many NBA scouts.

He kind of strikes me as a Miles Simon type of player - someone that is perfectly cut out for the college game. There really is no arguing the kid is a good basketball player, but to say he is going to have a long NBA career based on what he has done in his first two years at Duke is pushing it.

Thankfully, that opinion isn't shared by NBA scouts, who think Scheyer is a lock to be a pro. Also, this is not the place to pimp your little blog. If you want to be a member of this community, great. But you have contributed to two threads, and both have merely been attempts to drive traffic to your website. We'll consider it Spam if that happens again.

Edouble
10-23-2008, 12:38 AM
Thankfully, that opinion isn't shared by NBA scouts, who think Scheyer is a lock to be a pro. Also, this is not the place to pimp your little blog. If you want to be a member of this community, great. But you have contributed to two threads, and both have merely been attempts to drive traffic to your website. We'll consider it Spam if that happens again.

In his defense, his blog does need some pimping (copy editing).

RelativeWays
10-23-2008, 06:42 AM
I remember at the start of last year the same things were written about Jon. He could shoot but he tapered off at the end of his freshman year and he didn't deserve to be on the ACC all 07 freshmen team. There was more grumbling when we lost the game to Pitt when he shot the ball early (and in truth, he did misjudge the clock by a few seconds, it happens). But I would say that Scheyer was our most consistent performer all season. I remember ups and downs with Henderson (injury) Singler, Paulus, Nelson...Scheyer was pretty much ace through the duration. I expect even more from him this year. Have they revealed the startling line up this year? I wouldn't be surprised if he came off the bench this year too because he was so effective as a 6th man last year.

davekay1971
10-23-2008, 07:49 AM
I remember at the start of last year the same things were written about Jon. He could shoot but he tapered off at the end of his freshman year and he didn't deserve to be on the ACC all 07 freshmen team. There was more grumbling when we lost the game to Pitt when he shot the ball early (and in truth, he did misjudge the clock by a few seconds, it happens). But I would say that Scheyer was our most consistent performer all season. I remember ups and downs with Henderson (injury) Singler, Paulus, Nelson...Scheyer was pretty much ace through the duration. I expect even more from him this year. Have they revealed the startling line up this year? I wouldn't be surprised if he came off the bench this year too because he was so effective as a 6th man last year.

Not sure about the starting lineup, but I can pretty well guarantee, whatever it is for Presbyterian, it'll be different come Jan 4th against Va Tech. My guess for Presby: Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler, and Zoubek...

dukebballcamper90-91
10-23-2008, 09:26 AM
All I heard about Jon coming out of high school was he was a big time scorer. He got a lot hype from scoring a lot of points in few seconds, I have yet to see this kind of behavior. If he can do this why in the heck do we go in those painful to watch scoring droughts?

Diddy
10-23-2008, 09:46 AM
No one is saying that Jon is not a good player. He is a very heady player with a BBall IQ that is off the chart. He is not a great athlete, but we all knew that going in.

In every game they talk about his hs scoring ability, and they throw out his ridiculous run in that one game back in IL. We have yet to see any of that at Duke. Prior to his arrival, many on the board were saying that he would be our "next JJ" from outside. No one projected him to be as good as JJ, but we all expected him to be the next deadeye from outside. That really hasn't happened yet. He is a good outside shooter, but he doesn't strike fear into the hearts of opponents either.

He has been much better in some areas than anyone thought prior to his arrival. He is a better passer, team defender, and overall facilitator than we expected. But his shooting/scoring, while good, is not what the recruiting world expected. In summation, he has exceeded expectations in some areas, while failing to live up to expectations in other areas.

I love his game, and he will continue to do great things. I would just like to see him strike fear into defenders hearts whenever he touches it outside, or to go on some scary scoring runs occaisionally.

davekay1971
10-23-2008, 09:50 AM
All I heard about Jon coming out of high school was he was a big time scorer. He got a lot hype from scoring a lot of points in few seconds, I have yet to see this kind of behavior. If he can do this why in the heck do we go in those painful to watch scoring droughts?

1) Lighting it up in HS is different than lighting it up in the ACC. Jon has lit it up at times...but it's hard to do that every game against top quality defenders.

2) Jon provides much more for Duke than just scoring - to limit him to being simply a "scorer" would be a waste of his talents as a ball-handler, set-up guy, etc.

3) Every team goes through "painful to watch scoring droughts." When Duke had Hurley, McCaffery, T Hill, and G Hill roaming the perimeter we had scoring droughts. You can't pin that on one guy and say "see, he's not living up to his rep as as scorer".

I'm not sure what some people want from Scheyer. The kid is a beautiful ball player, with a wide range of skills, and, yes, he is a very viable scoring option for Duke. He's probably one of the most consistent contributors in the game. No, the kid's probably not going to go for 25 ppg at any point in his college career. Neither did Grant Hill (even in his senior season, when he didn't have a ton of help), another guy with a rep as a "big time scorer" coming out of high school.

ncexnyc
10-23-2008, 09:54 AM
It appears scoring droughts have been a problem for Duke these past few years. With the talent that was present, last year's dry spells are especially perplexing.

The team had very balanced scoring and that quite possibly could have been part of the problem as there isn't a natural go to guy on the squad.

I'm not really sure which is best, a team with one megastar, who you live and die by, or a group of well rounded players who all contribute.

I have a feeling the majority of the board, believes the rounded group of players is best and I would have to agree with this opinion.

Edouble
10-23-2008, 10:56 AM
The team had very balanced scoring and that quite possibly could have been part of the problem as there isn't a natural go to guy on the squad.

I'm not really sure which is best, a team with one megastar, who you live and die by, or a group of well rounded players who all contribute.

I have a feeling the majority of the board, believes the rounded group of players is best and I would have to agree with this opinion.

In a perfect world, you would have a team with 2-3 megastars alongside a group of well rounded players that are the ideal support squad for those megastars. That's the make-up of a team that makes a deep March run, and oddly enough, this year, we seem to have the megastars, but are unsure of the support players.

G and Singler are poised to be the megastars, and Jon is poised to either join them or be a regular star. Who will take on the "dirty work" of rebounding and post defense that a great support squad would be proud to hang its hat on is still up in the air.

DukieInBrasil
10-23-2008, 07:47 PM
I mentioned a couple of times during last year that i thought Jonīs game could become similar to Kirk Hinrichīs, currently of the Bulls. Physically they are very similar; i donīt remember KHīs game at Kansas as a Fr. or So., but by the end of his collegiate career he was an excellent shooter, solid PG and good at creating O. Jon is already a solid shooter and good at creating O for himself and others. Although not really a PG, Jon is a good passer, as attested by his 2+ a/to last year. Jon is a better rebounder than KH was in college and might already be a better defender than KH was. Hinrich has been a starter for several years in the NBA now and looks like heīll stick around for a while. I canīt see why Jon could not also make the Show and be a good NBA player for several years. Heīll obviously have to improve some more to become a starter in the NBA, but i mos def think heīs got the skills to get there.

dukebballcamper90-91
10-24-2008, 07:52 AM
I forgot to mention his faces. He makes the best faces in all of college bball.

Jumbo
10-24-2008, 11:39 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if he came off the bench this year too because he was so effective as a 6th man last year.

There is zero chance that he'll come off the bench this year.

Jumbo
10-24-2008, 11:46 AM
All I heard about Jon coming out of high school was he was a big time scorer. He got a lot hype from scoring a lot of points in few seconds, I have yet to see this kind of behavior. If he can do this why in the heck do we go in those painful to watch scoring droughts?

Huh? What, you expect him to routinely score 21 points in 75 seconds? Actually, his rep coming out of high school was as a well-rounded player, and he has shown that. He has been a fine scorer, especially since last year, he didn't get the ball nearly enough. Do you realize that when everyone was was fading last year, he averaged 14.7 ppg in Duke's last 10 games? Do you realize that in the WVU game, where no one could hit anything, he scored 15 points, despite only five field goal attempts? He didn't get the ball enough, though. That won't be a problem this season.

Jumbo
10-24-2008, 11:50 AM
I mentioned a couple of times during last year that i thought Jonīs game could become similar to Kirk Hinrichīs, currently of the Bulls. Physically they are very similar; i donīt remember KHīs game at Kansas as a Fr. or So., but by the end of his collegiate career he was an excellent shooter, solid PG and good at creating O. Jon is already a solid shooter and good at creating O for himself and others. Although not really a PG, Jon is a good passer, as attested by his 2+ a/to last year. Jon is a better rebounder than KH was in college and might already be a better defender than KH was. Hinrich has been a starter for several years in the NBA now and looks like heīll stick around for a while. I canīt see why Jon could not also make the Show and be a good NBA player for several years. Heīll obviously have to improve some more to become a starter in the NBA, but i mos def think heīs got the skills to get there.

Other than the fact that they are both white combo guards, I don't see much of a comparison. Your read on Hinrich, in particular, is totally wrong. He's an outstanding defender, especially on the ball. He is really, really quick -- quicker than many NBA point guards. He's quicker than Scheyer. Oddly, the worst part of his game has been his shooting.

Scheyer will assuredly play in the league, and does have some point guard skills. His handle and quickness are not as good as Hinrich's, but they are better than average. Scheyer is a more natural scorer, though, particularly in the mid-range area. And he has at least two inches on Hinrich. He's also a better wing defender.

In short, I don't see much similarity. I just know that Scheyer is a darn good player, that we haven't seen close to the best of him just yet and at some point this year, people are going to wake up and be like, "Hey, that guy is really good!" Well, duh.

SupaDave
10-24-2008, 01:23 PM
No one ever mentions Pocius.

It's hard to evaluate what you haven't seen.

jv001
10-24-2008, 02:00 PM
Jon was probably our best player last year. I would rather have seen the ball in Jon's hads at the end of the game. I know some say that Demark was our best player but I disagree(years end). Jon's decision making was better and his ball handling was better. Demarks defense may have been alittle better, but not that much better. Jon starts with Nolan at the point. Just my take. Go Duke!

ncexnyc
10-24-2008, 08:38 PM
"He didn't get the ball enough, though. That won't be a problem this season."

I'd really like to hear why you say this. Nelson is the only player who logged significant minutes that won't be around this year. What will be the difference this year?

quickgtp
10-24-2008, 09:43 PM
There is zero chance that he'll come off the bench this year.

Now that's crazy to say IMO. We are ONE WEEK into practice. Jon thrived in the 6th man role, and it is way too early to tell whether someone else steps up into Markie's role.

Will he probably start? Yes. Is there ZERO chance he won't start? No.

Jumbo
10-24-2008, 10:38 PM
Now that's crazy to say IMO. We are ONE WEEK into practice. Jon thrived in the 6th man role, and it is way too early to tell whether someone else steps up into Markie's role.

Will he probably start? Yes. Is there ZERO chance he won't start? No.

There is zero chance he won't start.

Jumbo
10-24-2008, 10:42 PM
"He didn't get the ball enough, though. That won't be a problem this season."

I'd really like to hear why you say this. Nelson is the only player who logged significant minutes that won't be around this year. What will be the difference this year?

Well, you nailed one of the differences right away. Nelson's gone. That frees up not only more perimeter minutes, but also opportunities. Remember, Duke ran a lot of dribble stuff through Nelson, forcing Scheyer to spread the floor on the wing or in the corner. In other words, a lot of times, his job was to be a threat without the ball, to occupy potential help defenders.

This year, by all accounts, Duke will put the ball in his hands more often. That includes when he and Paulus are in the game together -- I can see Paulus doing more work off the ball and Scheyer initiating the offense more. And that will definitely happen when Smith is in; remember, at the end of last year, Scheyer ran the point when Smith was in the game. Add the fact that Smith will play more and Paulus will play less, and you can see a clear scenario where the offense will run through Scheyer, Hendo and Singler. Plus, Scheyer's a year older, better, stronger, etc.

CameronCrazy'11
10-25-2008, 12:55 AM
Anyone who doesn't think Scheyer is a great player is advised to go back and watch our game at Miami last year, when Scheyer put the team on his back and almost singlehandedly pulled off an amazing comeback, scoring 27 points in the processs.

quickgtp
10-25-2008, 07:50 AM
There is zero chance he won't start.

Way to back up that off the wall thinking. Again, crazy talk. It really makes me question things that you type here sometimes.

I also suppose you speak with K regularly and that he has already determined his starting line-up for the year?

quickgtp
10-25-2008, 07:58 AM
Can you please post a link to show where most NBA scouts think Jon is a "lock for the NBA?" I like Scheyer, I really do, but a lock for the NBA? Come on. He's not fast enough and cannot drive one on one to make it as a PG, and he is too slow, does not have great length and not a good enough defender to play SG. At this point he needs to prove he can overcome his lack of physical tools to make it in the NBA. He can shoot and he has great IQ, but to say he is a lock at this point, is well, crazy again.

Jumbo
10-25-2008, 10:10 AM
Way to back up that off the wall thinking. Again, crazy talk. It really makes me question things that you type here sometimes.

I also suppose you speak with K regularly and that he has already determined his starting line-up for the year?

If you want to delude yourself into thinking that for some reason, he won't start today (did you even realize there's an exhibition game today?), go for it. Scheyer will be the opening-day starter. Three positions are locked in stone -- Scheyer's, Singler's and Henderson's (obviously, someone could get hurt). The coaching staff is building things around him.

If you've been paying attention, this has been confirmed by numerous sources. You could probably roll up today, ask Coach K himself, and he'd agree. But if you want to keep suggesting that, for some reason, he won't start, go for it. Your opinion is based on absolutely no information, but, hey that doesn't matter, right?

Jumbo
10-25-2008, 10:14 AM
Can you please post a link to show where most NBA scouts think Jon is a "lock for the NBA?" I like Scheyer, I really do, but a lock for the NBA? Come on. He's not fast enough and cannot drive one on one to make it as a PG, and he is too slow, does not have great length and not a good enough defender to play SG. At this point he needs to prove he can overcome his lack of physical tools to make it in the NBA. He can shoot and he has great IQ, but to say he is a lock at this point, is well, crazy again.

Yeah, scouts, GMs, etc. often post "links" when talking about college prospects. And I always link my private conversations with them. See, now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. In the process, you are displaying an limited understanding of the game. Your description of Scheyer, of course, displays absolutely no nuance, and sounds like your stereotypical white point guard. In fact, he's not a burner, but he's not slow. One of the things scouts like is his defense, particularly the way he denies on the wing. They like his dribble moves and love his one-dribble pullup (you don't have to get all the way to the rim to be effective off the dribble). They think he's a good all-around player. If he needs to improve anything, it's actually his shooting -- so far, he's been good, but he needs to knock down shots more regularly to separate himself. But, hey, if you want to call me crazy and make comments like those above, you're just revealing more about your own lack of information and comprehension than anything else.

RepoMan
10-25-2008, 10:48 AM
Yeah, scouts, GMs, etc. often post "links" when talking about college prospects. And I always link my private conversations with them. See, now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. In the process, you are displaying an limited understanding of the game. Your description of Scheyer, of course, displays absolutely no nuance, and sounds like your stereotypical white point guard. In fact, he's not a burner, but he's not slow. One of the things scouts like is his defense, particularly the way he denies on the wing. They like his dribble moves and love his one-dribble pullup (you don't have to get all the way to the rim to be effective off the dribble). They think he's a good all-around player. If he needs to improve anything, it's actually his shooting -- so far, he's been good, but he needs to knock down shots more regularly to separate himself. But, hey, if you want to call me crazy and make comments like those above, you're just revealing more about your own lack of information and comprehension than anything else.

Sometimes i miss the meaner, rougher blowhard. He'd have let loose with both barrels on this one.

quickgtp: You might want to consider the fact that, well, some people actually know what they are talking about.

SupaDave
10-25-2008, 11:25 AM
Sometimes i miss the meaner, rougher blowhard. He'd have let loose with both barrels on this one.

quickgtp: You might want to consider the fact that, well, some people actually know what they are talking about.

I have to agree! John's overall game is NBA worthy for sure. All he needs is some protein shakes.

Best comparison off the top of my head? Chris Mullins... Most would probably agree that Mullins was an effective NBA player...

"In Mullin's first three seasons with the Warriors, he was primarily a spot-up shooting guard playing in the backcourt alongside Eric "Sleepy" Floyd. Effort more than physicality marked Mullin's playing style. Somewhat lanky at 215 pounds and six-foot seven inches, Mullin managed to hold his own. He was a dead-eye outside shooter and could go to either his left or right and shoot with either hand, despite being naturally left-handed. This made him difficult for many NBA small forwards to guard. In fact, he was compared to NBA legend Larry Bird because both players lacked speed, had a great outside shot and had the innate ability to put their defender off guard."

Sounds about right to me - I especially like the comparison to Larry Legend.

Indoor66
10-25-2008, 11:37 AM
I have to agree! John's overall game is NBA worthy for sure. All he needs is some protein shakes.

Best comparison off the top of my head? Chris Mullins... Most would probably agree that Mullins was an effective NBA player...

"In Mullin's first three seasons with the Warriors, he was primarily a spot-up shooting guard playing in the backcourt alongside Eric "Sleepy" Floyd. Effort more than physicality marked Mullin's playing style. Somewhat lanky at 215 pounds and six-foot seven inches, Mullin managed to hold his own. He was a dead-eye outside shooter and could go to either his left or right and shoot with either hand, despite being naturally left-handed. This made him difficult for many NBA small forwards to guard. In fact, he was compared to NBA legend Larry Bird because both players lacked speed, had a great outside shot and had the innate ability to put their defender off guard."

Sounds about right to me - I especially like the comparison to Larry Legend.

Except that Jon has better speed and quickness.

SupaDave
10-25-2008, 11:52 AM
Except that Jon has better speed and quickness.

Well that's just a result of the steroids in Chik-Fil-a and McDonald's food products. :)

Naw, not only is he quicker but something me and the homies love to watch is his Dennis Rodman like knowledge of how the ball comes off the rim. Noone has mentioned that but we have marvelled at his ability to get rebounds.

Rodman spent hours studying people's shots for rebound clues - Scheyer is just innate with it...

Jumbo
10-25-2008, 11:55 AM
I have to agree! John's overall game is NBA worthy for sure. All he needs is some protein shakes.

Best comparison off the top of my head? Chris Mullins... Most would probably agree that Mullins was an effective NBA player...

"In Mullin's first three seasons with the Warriors, he was primarily a spot-up shooting guard playing in the backcourt alongside Eric "Sleepy" Floyd. Effort more than physicality marked Mullin's playing style. Somewhat lanky at 215 pounds and six-foot seven inches, Mullin managed to hold his own. He was a dead-eye outside shooter and could go to either his left or right and shoot with either hand, despite being naturally left-handed. This made him difficult for many NBA small forwards to guard. In fact, he was compared to NBA legend Larry Bird because both players lacked speed, had a great outside shot and had the innate ability to put their defender off guard."

Sounds about right to me - I especially like the comparison to Larry Legend.

It's "Jon." And "Mullin." And I don't see any comparison between the two. Mullin had two or three inches on Scheyer. Mullin was also incredibly slow, but one of the best shooters I've ever seen. Mullin was basically a true SF. Scheyer is a true guard. Once again, it's another comparison where the major similarity between two guys is their skin color. That stuff drives me nuts.

ncexnyc
10-25-2008, 12:02 PM
Anyone who doesn't think Scheyer is a great player is advised to go back and watch our game at Miami last year, when Scheyer put the team on his back and almost singlehandedly pulled off an amazing comeback, scoring 27 points in the processs.

Jon has indeed shown he is capable of having a very good game, but using the word, "great" to describe him at this point in time is stretching it.

I believe that putting up stats on a CONSISTENT basis, another words every game is what defines greatness. Does Jon have that potential? Most definitely, but until he does it game in and game out, let's refrain from calling him GREAT!

Kedsy
10-25-2008, 12:39 PM
Best comparison off the top of my head? Chris Mullins... Most would probably agree that Mullins was an effective NBA player...

I don't want to get into how good Jon Scheyer is or whether he's a lock for the NBA or not, but I do want to say that I saw Chris Mullin play at St. Johns and, at least so far, there's no comparison. Mullin was WAY better than anything Jon has showed so far. It's not even close. He was also the 7th pick of the NBA draft, which is significantly higher than any objective observer would predict for Scheyer.

Now, personally, I don't understand why people need to compare current players to past players at all. It seems counter-productive to me. The kid is the next Jon Scheyer, he doesn't have to be the next Chris Mullin, or the next Larry Bird, or even the next JJ Redick, as many billed him before he arrived at school. And [BEGIN RANT] this is neither here, nor there, but how come when people make these comparisons they almost always compare white players to white players and black players to black players? Why do you have to look like someone in order to play like them? Why don't people say Jon Scheyer the next Daniel Ewing? Not that Scheyer's game is all that similar to Ewing's, but it's as close to Ewing's as it is to Redick's or Mullin's or Bird's. That's all I'm saying. [END RANT]

Kedsy
10-25-2008, 12:42 PM
Once again, it's another comparison where the major similarity between two guys is their skin color. That stuff drives me nuts.

Me too, obviously. But I guess my rant was unnecessary. I hadn't seen this post before I posted mine. Sorry.

RepoMan
10-25-2008, 12:59 PM
We should note that SupaDave also compared him to Dennis Rodman, which I suspect is not only the first and only time that anyone has ever compared Jon Scheyer to Dennis Rodman, but also is a white/black comparison. (That said, I 100% agree with the observations of jumbo and Kedsy.)

SupaDave
10-25-2008, 02:08 PM
It's "Jon." And "Mullin." And I don't see any comparison between the two. Mullin had two or three inches on Scheyer. Mullin was also incredibly slow, but one of the best shooters I've ever seen. Mullin was basically a true SF. Scheyer is a true guard. Once again, it's another comparison where the major similarity between two guys is their skin color. That stuff drives me nuts.

Well forgive me for comparing him to an NBA player. Sheesh! We've already said he was quicker than Mullin so what's the gripe about? Get over it. I don't think you need to protect every players merits - ESPECIALLY when I'm agreeing with you. You're driving yourself nuts.

Quite frankly I can't think of ANY black player that he reminds me of. For starters it's just too doggone many. Glen Rice? No. B.J. Armstrong? No. Jordan? Ummm... NO.

AND I disagree - when I thought of a comparison for JON, I thought of one that included a shooter who didn't have great defense or drive to the basket much but was an EXCEPTIONAL player. Mullin was undersized - as IS Jon. Jon is simply not physically developed enough to be compared to MANY players.

IF I had to compare him to a black player (geez) - the closest I would come is Ray Allen and he's already better than Allen in some aspects and is NOT as good a shooter so that kills the Ray Allen comparisons.

Wait - I've got it - he reminds me of Craig Hodges!!!! Definitely Craig Hodges...

SupaDave
10-25-2008, 02:23 PM
We should note that SupaDave also compared him to Dennis Rodman, which I suspect is not only the first and only time that anyone has ever compared Jon Scheyer to Dennis Rodman, but also is a white/black comparison. (That said, I 100% agree with the observations of jumbo and Kedsy.)

Exactly - I compared him to a white AND a black player right after each other.

I'm looking at skill sets and body type. If he was dunking and hanging on to the rim then I would say he reminds me of Shaq. If he was dunking at all then I might say Bob Sura. If he was an incredible lefty that drove to the rim often then I just might say Bo Kimble.

People even compared Yao Ming to others and if you didn't know it - he's Asian. I'm pretty sure they used skills sets for Yao but now every Asian player after Yao is compared to Yao for the sake of their differences.

We do it all the time and most times without merit. I'm sure you realize how many "Baby Jordans" and "Baby Shaqs" there have been. Just ask Grant, Stackhouse, Vince, Harold Minor, and Kendrick Perkins. It's all part of the fun.

quickgtp
10-25-2008, 03:15 PM
If you want to delude yourself into thinking that for some reason, he won't start today (did you even realize there's an exhibition game today?), go for it. Scheyer will be the opening-day starter. Three positions are locked in stone -- Scheyer's, Singler's and Henderson's (obviously, someone could get hurt). The coaching staff is building things around him.

If you've been paying attention, this has been confirmed by numerous sources. You could probably roll up today, ask Coach K himself, and he'd agree. But if you want to keep suggesting that, for some reason, he won't start, go for it. Your opinion is based on absolutely no information, but, hey that doesn't matter, right?

Since when was this a discussion about him starting today?

I have been paying attention, but again, since you are not in the locker room, or in the coaches meetings, I say anything is possible. Did you not read where I stated he would probably start? I said a 0% chance was crazy talk. My information is based on "absolutely no information?" How is that?

quickgtp
10-25-2008, 03:20 PM
Yeah, scouts, GMs, etc. often post "links" when talking about college prospects. And I always link my private conversations with them. See, now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. In the process, you are displaying an limited understanding of the game. Your description of Scheyer, of course, displays absolutely no nuance, and sounds like your stereotypical white point guard. In fact, he's not a burner, but he's not slow. One of the things scouts like is his defense, particularly the way he denies on the wing. They like his dribble moves and love his one-dribble pullup (you don't have to get all the way to the rim to be effective off the dribble). They think he's a good all-around player. If he needs to improve anything, it's actually his shooting -- so far, he's been good, but he needs to knock down shots more regularly to separate himself. But, hey, if you want to call me crazy and make comments like those above, you're just revealing more about your own lack of information and comprehension than anything else.


Why does race have to do ANYTHING with his? Let that card go my friend.

When did I say Jon was slow? I said he wasn't fast enough. Hid defense on the wing? Yeah, it's pretty good, for college, but for the NBA? No, not strong enough to make him a "lock."

LOL, you keep referring to my lack of understanding yet you have NOTHING to back up your "lock." If you do, you need to prove it.

Jumbo
10-26-2008, 10:20 AM
Since when was this a discussion about him starting today?
Uh, the whole time? What did you think we were talking about? The starting lineup for some random game in January? We've been discussing Duke's starting lineup for the opener.


I have been paying attention, but again, since you are not in the locker room, or in the coaches meetings, I say anything is possible.
You know, I'm not in the kitchen at McDonald's, so I say it's possible that employees there are using alien technology to feed us human/cat hybrid burgers. And just because I'm not in the locker room or in the coaches meetings doesn't mean people who are in the locker room or coaches meetings don't pass info along.


Did you not read where I stated he would probably start? I said a 0% chance was crazy talk. My information is based on "absolutely no information?" How is that?

Thisi s very simple. Everything people are saying (publicly and privately) directly says that three spots are locked down (Singler's, Scheyer's and Henderson's) and that the team is being built around those three players. So, yeah, I'm going to take Coach K's public words, plus other private words as "information." If he's going to start, it mean's there's no chance he won't start (at the beginning of the season, save for injury, since that's the topic). So, one what are you basing the idea that there's better than a zero percent chance that he won't start? That basis would be known as "information."


Why does race have to do ANYTHING with his? Let that card go my friend.

Gee, I dunno. Seems like it bugs a lot of people. For three years, he's been compared constantly to white players. This is nothing new. Dunleavy went through the same thing. So did Laettner, Hurley, whomever. As others have said, it would be refreshing if people didn't solely make comparisons between players of the same race.


When did I say Jon was slow? I said he wasn't fast enough.
That's incredible parsing. "Not fast enough" = "too slow," my friend.


Hid defense on the wing? Yeah, it's pretty good, for college, but for the NBA? No, not strong enough to make him a "lock."
No, it's exceptional for college, and more than good enough for the NBA. I'd be a bit more concerned about his on-ball D at the pro level, and not because of quickness, but strength. But I've seen fewer players in all my time watching basketball who are more adept at chasing players through screens after screen and denying them the ball on the wing as Scheyer. If you don't believe me, ask Mr. Ellington down the road. Or just look at his numbers vs. Scheyer.


LOL, you keep referring to my lack of understanding yet you have NOTHING to back up your "lock." If you do, you need to prove it.

I've told you what NBA personnel people have told me. You can choose to ignore that information, but most people understand that I have no motive to invent anything here. You can be contrary all you want, but it's just making you look silly. He'll play at the next level. Your comments about his not being able to guard NBA wings are misguided -- heck, look what he did to Thaddeus Young when both were frosh, and Young is about to start at the THREE for Philly this season. But I'm not going to throw a bunch of names around and burn people who tell me things, just to satisfy your desire for "proof." So do what you want, doubt all you want, mock all you want. Just don't choke on your own saliva when he gets drafted in June of 2010.

quickgtp
10-26-2008, 04:10 PM
Uh, the whole time? What did you think we were talking about? The starting lineup for some random game in January? We've been discussing Duke's starting lineup for the opener.

I am talking about the starting lineup at the beginning of the season. I guess these exhibition games will count against the NCAA records just because you feel they should, right?


You know, I'm not in the kitchen at McDonald's, so I say it's possible that employees there are using alien technology to feed us human/cat hybrid burgers. And just because I'm not in the locker room or in the coaches meetings doesn't mean people who are in the locker room or coaches meetings don't pass info along.

This is just something else that you can't prove. You are not the one in the locker room so your word means nothing.



Thisi s very simple. Everything people are saying (publicly and privately) directly says that three spots are locked down (Singler's, Scheyer's and Henderson's) and that the team is being built around those three players. So, yeah, I'm going to take Coach K's public words, plus other private words as "information." If he's going to start, it mean's there's no chance he won't start (at the beginning of the season, save for injury, since that's the topic). So, one what are you basing the idea that there's better than a zero percent chance that he won't start? That basis would be known as "information."

I never said Scheyer wouldn't start, I stated that a 0% chance would be crazy. That just assumes Scheyer will never go cold, go very inconsistent, or get injured for that matter. Are those things probable? No, not IMO, but they COULD happen. So 0%, again, is crazy talk. BTW, for someone that remarks on the spelling of others, remember that "this is" is not "thisi s."



Gee, I dunno. Seems like it bugs a lot of people. For three years, he's been compared constantly to white players. This is nothing new. Dunleavy went through the same thing. So did Laettner, Hurley, whomever. As others have said, it would be refreshing if people didn't solely make comparisons between players of the same race.

Bugs A LOT of people? Well, it doesn't bug me because I do not read too far into it. Let the race card go. If one white player happens to resemble another white player so be it.


That's incredible parsing. "Not fast enough" = "too slow," my friend.

So "not fast enough" = "slow" or "too slow" now? OK, I get it, you now have the authority to put words in my mouth.


No, it's exceptional for college, and more than good enough for the NBA. I'd be a bit more concerned about his on-ball D at the pro level, and not because of quickness, but strength. But I've seen fewer players in all my time watching basketball who are more adept at chasing players through screens after screen and denying them the ball on the wing as Scheyer. If you don't believe me, ask Mr. Ellington down the road. Or just look at his numbers vs. Scheyer.

Mr. Ellington? That's your NBA reference? Wayne will be lucky to get selected in the early 2nd round, and just because Jon did "well" against him he is now an exceptional defender? WOW, it's amazing that numerous NBA draft sources aren't even talking about Jon in the draft in 2 years, let alone next year. Somehow though, he's a lock. LMAO, this is funny!



I've told you what NBA personnel people have told me. You can choose to ignore that information, but most people understand that I have no motive to invent anything here. You can be contrary all you want, but it's just making you look silly. He'll play at the next level. Your comments about his not being able to guard NBA wings are misguided -- heck, look what he did to Thaddeus Young when both were frosh, and Young is about to start at the THREE for Philly this season. But I'm not going to throw a bunch of names around and burn people who tell me things, just to satisfy your desire for "proof." So do what you want, doubt all you want, mock all you want. Just don't choke on your own saliva when he gets drafted in June of 2010.

Which NBA people? If they indeed told you this, a name drop won't be a bad thing. I am not sure what your motives are here, but this is ridiculous. I like Jon a lot, but an NBA lock at this point? No.

Making ME look silly? Do you actually believe I care what you think? You are a moderator on a Duke message board. Does this mean you will suspend or ban me for disagreeing with you?

He may get drafted in 2010, but at this point, he wouldn't get drafted. He still has some work to do.

quickgtp
10-26-2008, 04:24 PM
I have no personal affiliation with any of the following sites so there should not be any need to erase due to SPAM/Marketing. This just shows that Jon isn't ready, and you need to reevaluate your thoughts on this matter:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon-Scheyer-1043/

http://www.nbadraft.net/mocks/2010_nba_mock_draft.html

http://dimemag.com/2008/02/is-jon-scheyer-an-nba-player/

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba/nba-draft/2010-nba-mock-draft-ar49217.html

In your defense I did find one site that had Scheyer @ 28. I am not here to bash Jon, or to say he could never make the NBA. That would be foolish to say. But to say he is a lock at this point is just as foolish IMO.

MChambers
10-26-2008, 05:54 PM
I have no personal affiliation with any of the following sites so there should not be any need to erase due to SPAM/Marketing. This just shows that Jon isn't ready, and you need to reevaluate your thoughts on this matter:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon-Scheyer-1043/

http://www.nbadraft.net/mocks/2010_nba_mock_draft.html

http://dimemag.com/2008/02/is-jon-scheyer-an-nba-player/

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba/nba-draft/2010-nba-mock-draft-ar49217.html

In your defense I did find one site that had Scheyer @ 28. I am not here to bash Jon, or to say he could never make the NBA. That would be foolish to say. But to say he is a lock at this point is just as foolish IMO.

How many of those urls are for sites run by NBA scouts? I'm pretty sure the answer is zero. They are fun sites to read, but don't expect all of us to concede that they are right.

Even better, NBAdraft.net has Ellington at 17 next year. Seems to me that supports Jumbo's argument and undercuts yours.

quickgtp
10-26-2008, 06:22 PM
How many of those urls are for sites run by NBA scouts? I'm pretty sure the answer is zero. They are fun sites to read, but don't expect all of us to concede that they are right.

Even better, NBAdraft.net has Ellington at 17 next year. Seems to me that supports Jumbo's argument and undercuts yours.


That I am not sure of, but a couple of those have been VERY accurate the past 3+ years. My argument can't be undercut until Jumbo validates his "sources."

Mchambers, I take it you agree Scheyer is ready for the NBA today? He is a good college player, yes, but a lock for the NBA? No, not at this point.

Jumbo
10-26-2008, 06:33 PM
Which NBA people? If they indeed told you this, a name drop won't be a bad thing. I am not sure what your motives are here, but this is ridiculous. I like Jon a lot, but an NBA lock at this point? No.

Making ME look silly? Do you actually believe I care what you think? You are a moderator on a Duke message board. Does this mean you will suspend or ban me for disagreeing with you?

He may get drafted in 2010, but at this point, he wouldn't get drafted. He still has some work to do.

Ban you? Suspend you? Hardly. I don't moderate threads in which I post, and I certainly don't think people should be moderated for disagreeing with me. But I'm also not going to sit here and allow you to make erroneous or misleading comments when I'm trying to share decent info with the rest of the board.

I also happen to know some people who write for the sites you linked in your subsequent, and in most cases, their access to information is roughly equivalent to that of the average Internet poster. They're not talking to scouts that often, especially about the 2010 draft. It's guess-work. And when they do get to talk to scouts, they're not asking about Jon Scheyer, because he's not on their radar yet. He's been a solid player for two years on a team that hasn't progressed past the first weekend of the tourney. They're focusing on bigger names. That's how it works. But, I'm absolutely not going to "name drop" people in NBA front offices because some anonymous Internet poster thinks I'm lying (for some strange reason), especially when they aren't publicly allowed to discuss college players and talk to me with the understanding that I'll protect their identity. Give me a break.

I've been here a dozen years, and am prone to many things. (I wish I wouldn't get sucked into arguments like these, for instance.) But hyperbole isn't one of them. In fact, I've spent far more time warning against outsized expectations than building hype. I never expected DeMarcus Nelson to make the NBA. You've read my opinions about Olek Czyz's role this year. From Chris Burgess to Michael Thompson to Nick Horvath, I've generally tried to balance expectations. I have absolutely no reason to hype up Scheyer -- it's not like his NBA future will have any impact on my life. I'm purely passing along what I've been told by people I trust. I think I know the game very well, and I'm trying to pass along some observations about more subtle skills that tend to get overlooked. Most people appreciate that.

You, on the other hand, have been here since April, and seem determined argue and attack. Like here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=204698&postcount=18). Or maybe you're just upset because you were saying stuff like this (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=204698&postcount=18)all summer. Beats me. But I'm done with this argument. You may have as many last words as you'd like.

Jumbo
10-26-2008, 06:35 PM
That I am not sure of, but a couple of those have been VERY accurate the past 3+ years. My argument can't be undercut until Jumbo validates his "sources."

Mchambers, I take it you agree Scheyer is ready for the NBA today? He is a good college player, yes, but a lock for the NBA? No, not at this point.

Sorry, one last thing. I never said Scheyer is "ready for the NBA today." Maybe you're just not comprehending what I'm saying. I said he's a lock to play in the NBA. Not today. Not next season. But with two more years of strength, experience, etc. Big difference. Anyway, carry on ...

kinghoops
10-26-2008, 06:58 PM
no inside information here, just my honest opinion, jon is just starting his junior year, im pretty sure with two more years of growth and experience, it is very resonable that he will be drafted in 2010. he is a decent ball handler, very good defender and has i a very hi basketball IQ. he can create his own shot , and is pretty strong going to the basket as a guard, if he develops his shot more, i wouldnt be suprised if wasnt a first round pick....

i think he compares favorably to ellington, who if im not mistaken, is projected as a mid first rounder for next year

quickgtp
10-26-2008, 09:15 PM
Ban you? Suspend you? Hardly. I don't moderate threads in which I post, and I certainly don't think people should be moderated for disagreeing with me. But I'm also not going to sit here and allow you to make erroneous or misleading comments when I'm trying to share decent info with the rest of the board.

I also happen to know some people who write for the sites you linked in your subsequent, and in most cases, their access to information is roughly equivalent to that of the average Internet poster. They're not talking to scouts that often, especially about the 2010 draft. It's guess-work. And when they do get to talk to scouts, they're not asking about Jon Scheyer, because he's not on their radar yet. He's been a solid player for two years on a team that hasn't progressed past the first weekend of the tourney. They're focusing on bigger names. That's how it works. But, I'm absolutely not going to "name drop" people in NBA front offices because some anonymous Internet poster thinks I'm lying (for some strange reason), especially when they aren't publicly allowed to discuss college players and talk to me with the understanding that I'll protect their identity. Give me a break.

I've been here a dozen years, and am prone to many things. (I wish I wouldn't get sucked into arguments like these, for instance.) But hyperbole isn't one of them. In fact, I've spent far more time warning against outsized expectations than building hype. I never expected DeMarcus Nelson to make the NBA. You've read my opinions about Olek Czyz's role this year. From Chris Burgess to Michael Thompson to Nick Horvath, I've generally tried to balance expectations. I have absolutely no reason to hype up Scheyer -- it's not like his NBA future will have any impact on my life. I'm purely passing along what I've been told by people I trust. I think I know the game very well, and I'm trying to pass along some observations about more subtle skills that tend to get overlooked. Most people appreciate that.

You, on the other hand, have been here since April, and seem determined argue and attack. Like here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=204698&postcount=18). Or maybe you're just upset because you were saying stuff like this (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=204698&postcount=18)all summer. Beats me. But I'm done with this argument. You may have as many last words as you'd like.


Ah so now he's not a lock TODAY, rather down the road. LOL, good gear switching there my friend! I am not here to argue, but it is rather difficult to watch you go after and "correct" alot of people that have differing opinions than yours.

Yes, I said Miles wouldn't start as a freshman. It is still pre-season, and we haven't played anyone that resemble a D1 team as of yet. Things could very well change. Heck, I hope I'm wrong, because then we have the missing piece in the post.

I am not sure that is as crazy as saying Jon is a lock for the NBA though....

That excuse to "protect" names is absurd. You act as if you are holding/relaying information for a top secret government grouping.

I don't need the last word here. My last words will come when Jon doesn't get drafted.

MulletMan
10-26-2008, 09:56 PM
Ah so now he's not a lock TODAY, rather down the road. LOL, good gear switching there my friend! I am not here to argue, but it is rather difficult to watch you go after and "correct" alot of people that have differing opinions than yours.

Yes, I said Miles wouldn't start as a freshman. It is still pre-season, and we haven't played anyone that resemble a D1 team as of yet. Things could very well change. Heck, I hope I'm wrong, because then we have the missing piece in the post.

I am not sure that is as crazy as saying Jon is a lock for the NBA though....

That excuse to "protect" names is absurd. You act as if you are holding/relaying information for a top secret government grouping.

I don't need the last word here. My last words will come when Jon doesn't get drafted.

Ummm yeah... while I'm really enjoying the pissing match between the two o you, I'm going to jump in here and throw in my two cents so that we can maybe end this garbage and continue this thread while actually discussin basketball.

1. You two are free to disagree on Jon's playing future.
2. While I find Jumbo to be completely intolerable in our actual real life discussions, there are a couple of things that I trust him on. One of those things are his connection to NBA scouts and opinions.
3. When people connected to various programs / teams / organizations speak to friends, etc. they often speak on the condition of anonymity or, at the very least, "don't tell anyone I told you this". You may remember a while back that Jumbo mentioned that he thought / knew that Smith would start over Paulus. Well I realize that it was a meaning less preseason game, but Smith DID start, and you know what? I knew he was starting too. And you know what... I would never post on an internet BB how I knew, because then I might not find out other things that I wanted to know. People "protect" thier sources and friends all the time.


Finally, you're beating a dead horse at this point. Why not move on and see who is right in a couple of years?

Jim3k
10-26-2008, 10:28 PM
That excuse to "protect" names is absurd. You act as if you are holding/relaying information for a top secret government grouping.

I don't need the last word here. My last words will come when Jon doesn't get drafted.

For someone who joined the Board in April, after the close of last season, you certainly seem to want to exalt yourself over someone who has been on the Board for at least 6 years (I'm guesstimating; feel free to fill in the right year, Jumbo) and who has a track record of damn decent accuracy concerning the factual information he provides. And that doesn't cover the analytical capabilities he has also shown.

Frankly dude, your contrariness is getting a bit old. Jumbo has long explained his need to keep his sources to himself. Indeed, he felt so strongly about it he turned down a debate with a Chron sportswriter who forcefully (and somewhat immaturely) disagreed with him. (Would that be you?)

Anyway, constantly picking fights with someone you disagree with does not contribute to the general atmosphere of good will here and is, frankly, boring. There are a lot of people on this board who are full of vinegar; after a while they realize that acid doesn't taste good to most readers.

Disagree with posters if you want, but to me it seems wise to back off with the disputatious approach in which you seem to delight. It is simply unpleasant.

Edit: Mulletman interceded while I was drafting this (slowly since I was watching the WS).

BlueintheFace
10-26-2008, 10:42 PM
For someone who joined the Board in April, after the close of last season, you certainly seem to want to exalt yourself over someone who has been on the Board for at least 6 years (I'm guesstimating; feel free to fill in the right year, Jumbo) and who has a track record of damn decent accuracy concerning the factual information he provides. And that doesn't cover the analytical capabilities he has also shown.

Frankly dude, your contrariness is getting a bit old. Jumbo has long explained his need to keep his sources to himself. Indeed, he felt so strongly about it he turned down a debate with a Chron sportswriter who forcefully (and somewhat immaturely) disagreed with him. (Would that be you?)

Anyway, constantly picking fights with someone you disagree with does not contribute to the general atmosphere of good will here and is, frankly, boring. There are a lot of people on this board who are full of vinegar; after a while they realize that acid doesn't taste good to most readers.

Disagree with posters if you want, but to me it seems wise to back off with the disputatious approach in which you seem to delight. It is simply unpleasant.

Edit: Mulletman interceded while I was drafting this (slowly since I was watching the WS).

Second (except for the whole chronicle debacle cause I thought Beaton was justified in his conditions... but thats all old news). Seriously quickgtp, I find Jumbo's posts rude and intolerable sometimes, but his information is almost always solid. Just leave it.

jimsumner
10-26-2008, 10:48 PM
I confess that I find myself somewhat perplexed that the concept of keeping confidential sources confidential surprises anyone.

Jumbo
10-26-2008, 11:07 PM
someone who has been on the Board for at least 6 years (I'm guesstimating; feel free to fill in the right year, Jumbo)

I think it's over 13 now -- back to the awful second half of the 1994-95 when the "DBR" was a little write-up on the Prodigy message boards. But who's counting? ;)

Jim3k
10-26-2008, 11:19 PM
I think it's over 13 now -- back to the awful second half of the 1994-95 when the "DBR" was a little write-up on the Prodigy message boards. But who's counting? ;)

I knew I was shortchanging you, but I'm embarrassed that it was by that much. I go back to 1996 with juliovision, just before the board was blown up by the MD attackers. Only 12 years. :rolleyes:

Jumbo
10-26-2008, 11:31 PM
I knew I was shortchanging you, but I'm embarrassed that it was by that much. I go back to 1996 with juliovision, just before the board was blown up by the MD attackers. Only 12 years. :rolleyes:

Ha. They were actually Kentucky fans -- it was on the DBR quiz last spring!

BlueintheFace
10-26-2008, 11:37 PM
I confess that I find myself somewhat perplexed that the concept of keeping confidential sources confidential surprises anyone.

Well Jim, not that I am disagreeing with you, but you are one of the few who get to sit down on that front row in Cameron so I wouldn't imagine that you would have a problem with the idea of keeping confidential sources confidential. ;)

Jim3k
10-27-2008, 12:03 AM
Ha. They were actually Kentucky fans -- it was on the DBR quiz last spring!

I must have missed it. At one point I was told it was CHUNC (rhymes with junk) fans, but at that point I was new to the community and really didn't know anyone, so I was out of the loop. In fact, I couldn't find DBR for a while until James came on to the scene and set up the early Sagarmatha board. Even that board took fire under a DoS attack.

Later someone I trusted told me the first attack was MD and I never learned any different. When you're out here, those kinds of things often never get into the atmosphere.

Kentucky. Kentucky. Oh...they're the ones who lost to Texas Western (and we didn't), the ones that Laettner beat twice -- yeah... I vaguely remember them. (And 1978 and Jack Givens didn't happen.) I'll remember next time. :D

quickgtp
10-27-2008, 06:47 AM
Yes, you are correct, we need to let the next 2 years unfold and see whether Jon makes it as an NBA "lock." I wish Jon nothing but the best, and I hope he makes it for his sake. I just don't feel he will.

I don't care how long I have been here. You act as if I have been following Duke BBall for only 3 months as well. My whole point is that nothing is proven until it is actually validated. He can't/won't validate the sources so I will continue to disagree.

AGAIN, you act as if the validation of these sources will compromise some sort of issue of national security. :D

MChambers
10-27-2008, 07:16 AM
That I am not sure of, but a couple of those have been VERY accurate the past 3+ years. My argument can't be undercut until Jumbo validates his "sources."

Mchambers, I take it you agree Scheyer is ready for the NBA today? He is a good college player, yes, but a lock for the NBA? No, not at this point.

Neither Jumbo or I said he was ready today. We both think that in two years Scheyer will have a long NBA career.

Interesting that "a couple" of those sites have very accurate. Why then did you refer to four of them?

bdh21
10-27-2008, 08:20 AM
AGAIN, you act as if the validation of these sources will compromise some sort of issue of national security. :D

You act like the validation of these sources will not compromise the flow of information from the sources. Seems pretty naive to me. Or maybe you just enjoy goading Jumbo. Who knows?

Carlos
10-27-2008, 08:23 AM
I have no personal affiliation with any of the following sites so there should not be any need to erase due to SPAM/Marketing. This just shows that Jon isn't ready, and you need to reevaluate your thoughts on this matter:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon-Scheyer-1043/

http://www.nbadraft.net/mocks/2010_nba_mock_draft.html

http://dimemag.com/2008/02/is-jon-scheyer-an-nba-player/

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba/nba-draft/2010-nba-mock-draft-ar49217.html

In your defense I did find one site that had Scheyer @ 28. I am not here to bash Jon, or to say he could never make the NBA. That would be foolish to say. But to say he is a lock at this point is just as foolish IMO.

The problem I have with a lot of those reviews, particularly the one from Dime Magazine, is that they make the assumption that because someone doesn't do something they can't do something. They look at the what and determine the why. In this case what I'm talking about is how they assume that Jon Scheyer is simply a spot up shooter because he took a given percentage of his shots in that capacity last season.

So did Jon Scheyer take a number of spot up jumpers last season because he isn't able to attack the basket or did he do it because it fit better within Duke's offensive scheme? If you're predicating an offense on the Suns spacing, driving, and kicking model what's the best approach? Do you want Scheyer to drive the ball to the basket and kick it out to Demarcus Nelson for a 3-point attempt or do you want Nelson driving and Scheyer spotting up? Their career percentages would be about the same but I know which stroke I would trust more from distance.

quickgtp
10-27-2008, 08:27 AM
Neither Jumbo or I said he was ready today. We both think that in two years Scheyer will have a long NBA career.

Interesting that "a couple" of those sites have very accurate. Why then did you refer to four of them?

I could have added even more sites but what is the point? Thank you for clarifying that you do not feel he is ready today. That is all that I was asking of you.

It is hard for me to take something seriously when it cannot be validated. Just my two cents.....

RepoMan
10-27-2008, 08:47 AM
Ah so now he's not a lock TODAY, rather down the road. LOL, good gear switching there my friend!

. . .

That excuse to "protect" names is absurd. You act as if you are holding/relaying information for a top secret government grouping.

I don't need the last word here. My last words will come when Jon doesn't get drafted.

Dude, you really are embarassing yourself.

By the way, when Jumbo has discussed Jon's NBA prospects over the last two years, he always has discussed them with the expressed assumption that Jon would have a full college career before entering the draft.

CDu
10-27-2008, 09:05 AM
Yes, you are correct, we need to let the next 2 years unfold and see whether Jon makes it as an NBA "lock." I wish Jon nothing but the best, and I hope he makes it for his sake. I just don't feel he will.

I don't care how long I have been here. You act as if I have been following Duke BBall for only 3 months as well. My whole point is that nothing is proven until it is actually validated. He can't/won't validate the sources so I will continue to disagree.

I actually agree with you on this. I think Jumbo is overstating things a bit to say that Scheyer will be a lock by his senior year. I reserve the term "lock" for guys who are ready to play right now. If I understand correctly, Jumbo's point is that, with expected development, Scheyer will definitely be drafted in 2010. But in my opinion there is no guarantee that such development will occur, and to assume it will happen is really stepping out on a limb. Thus, I'd say he's not a lock.

It would seem that this whole thing is a semantics argument (or a case of poorly chosen words). The amount of arguing on the margins of text is really annoying on both of your parts, and I say that as someone who has been guilty of arguing on the margins before.


AGAIN, you act as if the validation of these sources will compromise some sort of issue of national security. :D

It's obviously not a matter of national security. But at the same time, it is information that was given to Jumbo on the premise of anonymity. While the world wouldn't be in danger if Jumbo violated that anonymity, the access to those sources just might. That's something he's not willing to risk for the sake of trying to shut you up (and frankly, I wouldn't either if I were in his shoes). You don't have to believe in the existence or credibility his sources (though I see no reason not to do so based on past information), but I wouldn't poo-poo the idea of protecting the anonymity of sources, no matter how insignificant the information may be to you. It comes across as insulting and/or naive. There's a reason that those sources want to be kept anonymous, and violating that trust would probably cut access to future information.

quickgtp
10-27-2008, 10:34 AM
I actually agree with you on this. I think Jumbo is overstating things a bit to say that Scheyer will be a lock by his senior year. I reserve the term "lock" for guys who are ready to play right now. If I understand correctly, Jumbo's point is that, with expected development, Scheyer will definitely be drafted in 2010. But in my opinion there is no guarantee that such development will occur, and to assume it will happen is really stepping out on a limb. Thus, I'd say he's not a lock.

It would seem that this whole thing is a semantics argument (or a case of poorly chosen words). The amount of arguing on the margins of text is really annoying on both of your parts, and I say that as someone who has been guilty of arguing on the margins before.



It's obviously not a matter of national security. But at the same time, it is information that was given to Jumbo on the premise of anonymity. While the world wouldn't be in danger if Jumbo violated that anonymity, the access to those sources just might. That's something he's not willing to risk for the sake of trying to shut you up (and frankly, I wouldn't either if I were in his shoes). You don't have to believe in the existence or credibility his sources (though I see no reason not to do so based on past information), but I wouldn't poo-poo the idea of protecting the anonymity of sources, no matter how insignificant the information may be to you. It comes across as insulting and/or naive. There's a reason that those sources want to be kept anonymous, and violating that trust would probably cut access to future information.


CDu, thank you for your insight. I cannot agree more that the term "lock" should be saved for those who are ready today. For example, Kobe Bryant was a "lock" as a senior in HS. It is relieving to know that someone else on this board actually feels the same way about Scheyer!

I guess if I disagree with certain people here I am "embarassing myself." LOL

gvtucker
10-27-2008, 01:46 PM
CDu, thank you for your insight. I cannot agree more that the term "lock" should be saved for those who are ready today. For example, Kobe Bryant was a "lock" as a senior in HS.
Actually, no, he wasn't. In fact, Jerry West at the time was hit with quite a bit of criticism for what amounted to his using a 1st round pick for a kid who wasn't even a center. (For all practical purposes, he told the Hornets who to pick for the trade.) Conventional wisdom at the time was that you should only draft centers out of high school, it was way too big of a risk to draft high school aged swing men. Kobe Bryant wasn't considered a lock for the draft until very close to the draft, and even then, the thought that he was ready at the time was really outrageous.

quickgtp
10-27-2008, 01:56 PM
I guess it all depends on who you talk to then. How about LeBron? Does that work? ;)

CDu
10-27-2008, 02:18 PM
CDu, thank you for your insight. I cannot agree more that the term "lock" should be saved for those who are ready today. For example, Kobe Bryant was a "lock" as a senior in HS. It is relieving to know that someone else on this board actually feels the same way about Scheyer!

I guess if I disagree with certain people here I am "embarassing myself." LOL

I agree with you on the semantics aspect of your debate, though I can see where Jumbo is coming from as well. It would appear that Jumbo is taking the sources' assumptions that Scheyer will continue to develop and thus be surely drafted in 2010. I wouldn't personally make such an assumption. I certainly hope it turns out that way, and I can definitely see it happening (if Scheyer puts on strength and continues to develop his shooting touch and ballhandling/playmaking skills. But I also wouldn't use the term lock at this point. We don't know what players are going to emerge between now and then, and we don't know if Scheyer will actually make the jump.

That said, it's not the fact that you disagreed with Jumbo that constituted "embarassing yourself." I do agree with others who felt that your tone and approach to the discussion/debate made you look bad - especially goading Jumbo about his sources.

davekay1971
10-27-2008, 02:27 PM
I actually thought quickgtp's biggest moment of self-embarrassment came with his line: "My last words will come when Jon doesn't get drafted."

Problem 1: He spends tremendous energy arguing that Jumbo's in error for calling Scheyer a lock at this point in his career, then boldly states that Jon is a lock not to make it. No semantics debate here: quickgtp stated "when" Jon doesn't get drafted, not if.

Problem 2: He's posting on a Duke board regarding a Duke player who seems like a genuinely good guy and certainly is an asset to the team, and implying pretty strongly he'll gloat about being right if Jon doesn't get in the NBA. Poor form.

Classof06
10-27-2008, 03:00 PM
As someone who's just joining this conversation, I think Scheyer has a ways to go before he's considered a lock for the draft.

With all due respect, I don't really care what Jumbo was told by his source, whoever that may be. NBA personnel/scouts have been wrong on players before and they'll be wrong again.

I'm not saying Scheyer will never be drafted but I think a lot of things have to happen between now and then. I don't think there's any doubt that Scheyer is a very good college player. But there are a lot of very good college players that never get drafted to the NBA.

Whatever the case is, at the end of the day I obviously wish Scheyer nothing but the best.

quickgtp
10-27-2008, 07:01 PM
I actually thought quickgtp's biggest moment of self-embarrassment came with his line: "My last words will come when Jon doesn't get drafted."

Problem 1: He spends tremendous energy arguing that Jumbo's in error for calling Scheyer a lock at this point in his career, then boldly states that Jon is a lock not to make it. No semantics debate here: quickgtp stated "when" Jon doesn't get drafted, not if.

Problem 2: He's posting on a Duke board regarding a Duke player who seems like a genuinely good guy and certainly is an asset to the team, and implying pretty strongly he'll gloat about being right if Jon doesn't get in the NBA. Poor form.

That is self-embarrassment? WOW.

I spent "tremendous" energy arguing? It wasn't near an argument IMO.

You seemed to have missed where I stated that I like Jon and that I would hope he would make it to the NBA. I just don't think he has, or will have, the tools to make it. Besides, my biggest issue is with Jumbo and his "sources" and the verification of them. I have every right to disagree with him and, again, I was asking for a simple verification.