Singler, Henderson Preseason 4th Team All-Americans

[Skitzle]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1607593

CONGRATS to both. I hope they exceed expectation

How similar do pre-season AA picks and post season picks tend to be? (I guess Freshman don't really get notice for Preseason..)

P.S. As I am not averse to inciting riots I will not that Patrick Patterson is a 2nd team AA

[SilkyJ]

P.S. As I am not averse to inciting riots I will not that Patrick Patterson is a 2nd team AA

I don't think that's out of the ordinary at all. I think 2nd team for PP may be a bit high but he certainly had a very good year last year. Not a very good year for a freshman, just a very good year, period. And we all know the biggest jumps tend to be from freshman to sophomore year, so I don't see what's incendiary or controversial or whatever about that prediction, even when considering the duke/UK mojo

[brevity]

One of the ways to compile a preseason All-American list, other than seeing which stars came back (Blake Griffin, Stephen Curry, Tyler Hansbrough), is to speculate on which players will be most likely to win their conference's Player of the Year award. In the somewhat depleted SEC, you could safely predict that Patrick Patterson might be in the thick of that contest.

[wolfpackdevil]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1607593

CONGRATS to both. I hope they exceed expectation

How similar do pre-season AA picks and post season picks tend to be? (I guess Freshman don't really get notice for Preseason..)

P.S. As I am not averse to inciting riots I will not that Patrick Patterson is a 2nd team AA

I really do not think that Stephon Curry will have as good a year as last. Peoples entire gameplan will be focused around him, and he will not have the best PG in the country from the year before to help him.

He wont have as good a year playing the point

[Bob Green]

He wont have as good a year playing the point

People have been underestimating Curry for a long time starting with when he was in high school. I expect Curry will have another very good year. Will Davidson make it back to the Elite Eight? Doubtful. But Curry's individual performance will be impressive.

[Cameron]

and he will not have the best PG in the country from the year before to help him.

Richards? You've got to be kidding?

[BlueintheFace]

Richards? You've got to be kidding?

It's hard to hand out the title, "best pg in the country," but no educated college basketball fan would leave him out of their top 5. He was the country's assist leader by a significant margin (8 assists/game) on a mid-major elite eight team.

[shadowfax336]

Am I the only one who looks at the 2nd 3rd and 4th teams there and thinks the 3rd and 4th teams would beat the 2nd team if they played each other?

[MChambers]

Am I the only one who looks at the 2nd 3rd and 4th teams there and thinks the 3rd and 4th teams would beat the 2nd team if they played each other?

Seems to me the 4th team would beat any of them.

[Edouble]

How similar do pre-season AA picks and post season picks tend to be? (I guess Freshman don't really get notice for Preseason..)

In my experience, they tend to be very different. I can recall years when none of the five pre-season guys make the actual list.

[Cameron]

It's hard to hand out the title, "best pg in the country," but no educated college basketball fan would leave him out of their top 5. He was the country's assist leader by a significant margin (8 assists/game) on a mid-major elite eight team.

DJ Augustin, Darren Collison, Sean Singletary, Ty Lawson (when healthy), AJ Graves, Tyrese Rice, etc. all come to mind as more talented point guards. And, call me biased, but I'd put Paulus on the above list as well (he may have been outshined in the assists department when Duke and Davidson met last year, but Greg pulled his team out on top). This is all very subjective, however, as different people point toward different reasoning when arguing point guard greatness.

That said, a player who leads the nation in a statistical category relating to a specific position does not automatically make said player the best at what he does. Any educated basketball fan understands this. One explanation for his explosion of assists could just be that he played with perhaps the best shooter in all of the college game, benefiting statistically much like our own Greg Paulus did his freshman year in Durham with JJ Redick roaming the three-point arc. Just because Rahim Rahim from Providence (fictional athlete) leads the country in rebounds or shot blocks during a season when his team reaches the Elite Eight, he's not automatically the best center as a result.

Now, I know that Stephon Curry is not the only reason for Richards' numbers a season ago. First and foremost, he was a gamer, the type of player that would bring it each and every night. Very solid. And, as you pointed out, he was a part of an Elite Eight team. One has to be a special, special lead man to direct his club through three victories in the Dance, and just one shy of the Final Four.

It my opinion, however, that he was far from the nation's best. If you want a prime example of this, watch his performance against Kansas in the regional finals. Even though he recorded his usual assist numbers to the Wildcats' perimeter gunners, his overall floor game was nothing but average and his decision making, in regards to shooting, overly erratic. This was noted by many pundits, too.

Simply put, his all-around polish was not the best the country had to offer. It's about more than just assists or advancing to the Elite Eight. If we're basing it off team success, for example, then Russell Robinson is number one.

I'd be confident in placing Richards' as top ten point in 2007-08, however. There is no doubt about that. Just not number one.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I really do not think that Stephon Curry will have as good a year as last. Peoples entire gameplan will be focused around him, and he will not have the best PG in the country from the year before to help him.

He wont have as good a year playing the point

Their game plans were pretty well focused on Curry in the tourney last year and they still could not stop him. It's not like he was getting lots of wide open shots. I suspect we will see more of the same this year.

[davekay1971]

Their game plans were pretty well focused on Curry in the tourney last year and they still could not stop him. It's not like he was getting lots of wide open shots. I suspect we will see more of the same this year.

In talking to people in and around Davidson, there is a big collective breath hold going on as they wait to see how much the loss of his backcourt running mate will affect him. On the one hand - Curry played the point in HS and it's not something completely new to him. On the other, he definitely benefitted from a VERY good point guard last year. I have no doubt that Curry will have a phenomenal year. He's in a great system with a great coach, and the kid is a straight up talent.

As for our guys - by season's end both Henderson and Singler will be much better than 4th team AA...and Jon will be getting AA honors as well. Czyz, of course, will be first team AA, Naismith POY, a recurring fixture in Hansbrough's nightmares, and will have dated and dumped Giselle, Kim Kardashian, and Jessica Simpson.

[wolfpackdevil]

DJ Augustin, Darren Collison, Sean Singletary, Ty Lawson (when healthy), AJ Graves, Tyrese Rice, etc. all come to mind as more talented point guards. And, call me biased, but I'd put Paulus on the above list as well (he may have been outshined in the assists department when Duke and Davidson met last year, but Greg pulled his team out on top). This is all very subjective, however, as different people point toward different reasoning when arguing point guard greatness.

That said, a player who leads the nation in a statistical category relating to a specific position does not automatically make said player the best at what he does. Any educated basketball fan understands this. One explanation for his explosion of assists could just be that he played with perhaps the best shooter in all of the college game, benefiting statistically much like our own Greg Paulus did his freshman year in Durham with JJ Redick roaming the three-point arc. Just because Rahim Rahim from Providence (fictional athlete) leads the country in rebounds or shot blocks during a season when his team reaches the Elite Eight, he's not automatically the best center as a result.

Now, I know that Stephon Curry is not the only reason for Richards' numbers a season ago. First and foremost, he was a gamer, the type of player that would bring it each and every night. Very solid. And, as you pointed out, he was a part of an Elite Eight team. One has to be a special, special lead man to direct his club through three victories in the Dance, and just one shy of the Final Four.

It my opinion, however, that he was far from the nation's best. If you want a prime example of this, watch his performance against Kansas in the regional finals. Even though he recorded his usual assist numbers to the Wildcats' perimeter gunners, his overall floor game was nothing but average and his decision making, in regards to shooting, overly erratic. This was noted by many pundits, too.

Simply put, his all-around polish was not the best the country had to offer. It's about more than just assists or advancing to the Elite Eight. If we're basing it off team success, for example, then Russell Robinson is number one.

I'd be confident in placing Richards' as top ten point in 2007-08, however. There is no doubt about that. Just not number one.


Yea, Richards was amazing. He might have not been number one talent wise, But a PG is supposed to be the team leader. And he lead Davidson to one shot away from the final four.

He was amazing with that Davidson team, and I think deserves as much credit as Curry for their run to the Elite 8

[BlueintheFace]

DJ Augustin, Darren Collison, Sean Singletary, Ty Lawson (when healthy), AJ Graves, Tyrese Rice, etc. all come to mind as more talented point guards. And, call me biased, but I'd put Paulus on the above list as well (he may have been outshined in the assists department when Duke and Davidson met last year, but Greg pulled his team out on top). This is all very subjective, however, as different people point toward different reasoning when arguing point guard greatness.

That said, a player who leads the nation in a statistical category relating to a specific position does not automatically make said player the best at what he does. Any educated basketball fan understands this. One explanation for his explosion of assists could just be that he played with perhaps the best shooter in all of the college game, benefiting statistically much like our own Greg Paulus did his freshman year in Durham with JJ Redick roaming the three-point arc. Just because Rahim Rahim from Providence (fictional athlete) leads the country in rebounds or shot blocks during a season when his team reaches the Elite Eight, he's not automatically the best center as a result.

Now, I know that Stephon Curry is not the only reason for Richards' numbers a season ago. First and foremost, he was a gamer, the type of player that would bring it each and every night. Very solid. And, as you pointed out, he was a part of an Elite Eight team. One has to be a special, special lead man to direct his club through three victories in the Dance, and just one shy of the Final Four.

It my opinion, however, that he was far from the nation's best. If you want a prime example of this, watch his performance against Kansas in the regional finals. Even though he recorded his usual assist numbers to the Wildcats' perimeter gunners, his overall floor game was nothing but average and his decision making, in regards to shooting, overly erratic. This was noted by many pundits, too.

Simply put, his all-around polish was not the best the country had to offer. It's about more than just assists or advancing to the Elite Eight. If we're basing it off team success, for example, then Russell Robinson is number one.

I'd be confident in placing Richards' as top ten point in 2007-08, however. There is no doubt about that. Just not number one.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to average 8 assists/game in college basketball? Do you know how hard it is for a mid-major team to make it to the elite eight?

I guess the question is; what are your criteria for a good pg? You seem to name great scorers... not great point guards.

... to me tyrese rice and sean singletary are not even close to being good point guards. I think they are exceptional scorers who happen to bring the ball up the court.

[Johnboy]

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to average 8 assists/game in college basketball? Do you know how hard it is for a mid-major team to make it to the elite eight?

I guess the question is; what are your criteria for a good pg? You seem to name great scorers... not great point guards.

... to me tyrese rice and sean singletary are not even close to being good point guards. I think they are exceptional scorers who happen to bring the ball up the court.

Yep - for me Hurley (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player914.txt)> JWill (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player2038.txt)as a point guard even though JWill > Hurley as a scorer (and arguably as an overall player). JWill's PAR (Points+Assists+Rebounds) was 29/game and Hurley's was "only" 22.3/game, but Hurley had more assists (7.7 to 6.0) and a higher A/TO (2.01 to 1.52). I gotta admit, though, that I probably penalize JWill too much for his relatively poor free-throw shooting (Hurley - .776, JWill - .663).

[Cameron]

Do you know how hard it is for a mid-major team to make it to the elite eight?

This question, in its current context, is irrelevant. Sure Richards' play had to be great at the point in order for Davidson to advance as far as it did, but Stephon Curry did most of the producing, and often times in one-on-one situations where he was essentially playing the point, with the opposing team's best defender in his grill. Again, the fact that Richards' team went to the Elite Eight does not make him the nation's top point guard. Had Gonzaga knocked the Wildcats off in Round One--and the Zags', at one point, were very close to doing so--would you still be throwing that label around? Doubtful.

When Matt Santangelo led Gonzaga to the West Regional Finals in '99 and Trevor Huffman the Kent State Golden Flashes to the South Regional Finals in '02, the two mid-major point guards weren't branded best in the nation from what I remember. And both of those guys were absolute studs, especially Santangelo, who pretty much put the entire Bulldog club on his back during that Cinderella run. He may have had Richie Frahm beside him, but was certainly lacking a Stephon Curry.

Tulsa, St. Joes, and George Mason, who even made it as far as the Final Four in '06, have all made Elite Eight appearances this decade. That's a pretty good amount of mid-majors, IMO; at least in comparison with the impossible picture you were painting earlier about small schools' chances of going deep into March.


Do you have any idea how difficult it is to average 8 assists/game in college basketball?

I do know that Greg Paulus was very close to averaging 6 assists/game in the latter stages of 2005-06, as a freshman in the ACC. Why? Number one, he's a heady point guard who knows the game inside and out. Number two, JJ Redick. Had Richards been without Curry this season, would he really have averaged 8 assists/game? Again, doubtful. Probably more like 5 or 6, the same number Paulus averaged as a rookie in the ACC.

Look, I'm not trying to discredit Richards or anything, because he was/is a great point guard. There is no denying that. One has to be a very good point guard to accomplish the things he did. That said, however, Richards was put in a very, very nice situation, alongside a tremendous talent in Stephon Curry who was not only America's purest outside shooter a season ago (a point guard's dream), but who was also responsible for grabbing opposing teams' best on-ball defender. For example, against Kansas in the Elite Eight, Jayhawk point guard and best on-ball defender Russell Robinson, who usually defended the opposition's play-making point guards, was, as one might guess, not stacked up with Richards most of the night. He was on The Show, Stephon Curry. Even then, Richards' shooting game was erratic and forced, leaving brick after brick. (I certainly don't buy this, but many after the game were stating that Richards' out of control play would actually be no trouble to Davidson in the long run because it was leaving.)

Could any point guard, even one taken from the list I previously mentioned above, have stepped in alongside Curry and dished out 8 assists per game? No. It still takes a great talent. Not a "best in the nation" talent, but a great player nonetheless.

All in all, there truly is no point in arguing over this, as we both have opinions that are unlikely to change. But, I would like to raise one last question. Would you truly, honestly have placed Ricahards above DJ Augustin a year ago as the "better, more talented" point?

DJ Augustin, if you have forgotten, averaged 19.2 PPG and 5.8 APG as a sophomore point guard in the Big XII conference (he averaged 6.7 in leading the Big XII in APG as a freshman), and was given the Bob Cousy Award as the country's top PG last season.

[BD80]

It's hard to hand out the title, "best pg in the country," but no educated college basketball fan would leave him out of their top 5. He was the country's assist leader by a significant margin (8 assists/game) on a mid-major elite eight team.


DJ Augustin, Darren Collison, Sean Singletary, Ty Lawson (when healthy), AJ Graves, Tyrese Rice, etc. all come to mind as more talented point guards. ...

I'd be confident in placing Richards' as top ten point in 2007-08, however. There is no doubt about that. Just not number one.

How about the players in college last year who will be starting in the NBA at PG this year?

#1 pick Rose?

or some kid named Nelson?

[BlueintheFace]

Cameron, averaging 8 assists/game and making the elite eight are not the only criteria here for Richards. They just happen to be two very impressive factors. How about this... you give me the top 5 in the country from last season and list the criteria for choosing them.

[SilkyJ]

... to me tyrese rice and sean singletary are not even close to being good point guards. I think they are exceptional scorers who happen to bring the ball up the court.

I would take exception to the singletary comment. He was a very, very good PG, but A) had no one to pass to and B) was ASKED to score instead of pass.

I'm still trying to figure out who this Nelson kid is who's suddenly a starter for my (now) hometown team...

[Cameron]

Actually, I've done enough writing on this subject, I think:).

Like I said, what further could result from this? You think he was wonderful and the best in the country. I think he was, despite being very good, a major product of his environment statistically, which led to the overblown praise.

Besides, you never answered my questions, either.

We will agree to disagree.

[BlueintheFace]

Actually, I've done enough writing on this subject, I think:).

Like I said, what further could result from this? You think he was wonderful and the best in the country. I think he was, despite being very good, a major product of his environment statistically, which led to the overblown praise.

Besides, you never answered my questions, either.

We will agree to disagree.

1) To answer your question, No. I would not have placed anybody ahead of Augustin.

2) I never said Richards was the "best in the country". I simply said that he was top five and that "best pg" is hard to quantify.

3) I dispute that his environment had that much to do with his stats. Point guards have better assist numbers with dominant big men and on teams with multiple significant scoring threats. Davidson had ONE significant scoring threat in Curry.

4) Agree to disagree sounds about right.

[Cameron]

How about the players in college last year who will be starting in the NBA at PG this year?

#1 pick Rose?

Very good point. My mistake for missing him originally.

(DeMarcus, though I love him, wouldn't get put on the list since he played minimal point guard for us:) Good luck to him as an NBA one, however! Love Markie. He deserves every last minute of the praise and success he is recieving.)