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bludvlman
10-18-2008, 10:53 AM
Post all talk about the scrimmage here.

Anyone have a link to video outside of goduke.com?

balkan boy
10-18-2008, 11:43 AM
or an audio link? Would love to listen from the other side of the atlantic....

Truth
10-18-2008, 12:02 PM
Get the 9 buck membership for 1 month on GoDuke, it's worth it. You'll get the Blue-White game, plus the remainder of the non-televised exhibition games. It basically brings you right up until the televised schedule...

Now if they'd only start the Blue-White video feed on-time...

RainingThrees
10-18-2008, 12:52 PM
I wish I could be there!!!! i'm sure our guys are even better this year. Go Duke!!!!

trinity92
10-18-2008, 01:39 PM
I loved what I saw from this kid. I've thought he was a more important pickup than Williams or Czyz from the day he left Stanford, in terms of what we need this year. Count me more impressed now. Very fluid and comfortable.

My christmas wish-- Starting 5 of Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler and Plumlee.

This will be a VERY exciting year.

RainingThrees
10-18-2008, 01:42 PM
I loved what I saw from this kid. I've thought he was a more important pickup than Williams or Czyz from the day he left Stanford, in terms of what we need this year. Count me more impressed now. Very fluid and comfortable.

My christmas wish-- Starting 5 of Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler and Plumlee.

This will be a VERY exciting year.

I've heard the same from other boards. Nolan seems to be sraight outplaying Greg while Miles looks to be better than all the other post players. Any word on Elliot?

BlueintheFace
10-18-2008, 01:47 PM
Here are a few thoughts--

Plumlee looks GREAT!! incredibly mobile... shot blocking presence... diverse offensive package on the block. I am excited.

Henderson looks a lot more assertive and the reports about him improving his range appear to be true.

Nolan is going to be a DEFENSIVE FORCE, but he still makes some boneheaded turnovers and isn't yet seeing the angles and lanes on the court. He'll get there. It's going to be a great learning season for him.

Paulus is Paulus. Best Three point shooter on the team/very few turnovers... defensive liability/not great getting to the rim.

E-Will needs to learn how to take a charge, but his defense is great. Not sure what to make of his offensive package yet... to be determined

Pocius... He got to the rim but missed a few shots when he got there. On the other hand, he knocked down practically every three he took.

Singler looks bigger, but is the same great all-around force.

nicktonyg22
10-18-2008, 02:29 PM
Some interesting thoughts/notes from the game.

1) Scheyer, Henderson and Singler seem to be the only definite starters, and were paired up with Smith and Plumlee in the first half and then with Paulus and Thomas in the second half. The first half team won by 20+ and the second half team lost by 9. (Aka, they played much better with Smith and Plumlee than with Paulus and Thomas)

2)Henderson is going to be scary good this year. He looked smooth, his outside shot was on and he looked confident taking it. As usual he can get to the rim whenever he wants to. His lefty dribble looks better too.

3)Miles Plumlee is the best low post offensive weapon that we have. He should start if he is up to Coach K's defensive requirements. Zoubek did look better but seems to still have some issues with simply putting the ball in the basket. Thomas is the same as last year- maybe a bit quicker with his movement with the basketball. Also, Czyz just seems to not be ready. Although he can jump and run, he looked lost most of the time and wasn't a factor scoring, rebounding or on defense. After a year or two of being coached up he could be solid.

4)Paulus is a good three point shooter, but he forced it a little today and seemed to get frustrated when guarded by the longer, quicker Nolan. He also missed two free throws at the end of the second game which would have made the game much closer.

5)Scheyer and Singler shot the ball well from the outside. It's already pretty clear that when Singler doesn't have to guard the other team's 5, he's a lot less tired and able to be deadly from the outside and off the dribble.

6) Elliot looked solid on defense, is very athletic and smooth. He really didn't seem to get very many chances to score. He did a pretty solid job, but will probably take a little bit to develop. I would expect him to need some more time.

7) Nolan played with confidence, poise and strength. He locked down on Paulus and made him look bad all afternoon. He distributed well and hit a clutch three-ball to ice the second game (He stuck his tongue out MJ-fashion after he hit it). I wouldn't be surprised at all if he started over Paulus- mostly for his defense.

8)Pocius is a scoring machine...I still don't know about his defense (he had 3 fouls in his first 8-10 minutes in the game), but he shot the ball very well from three and was explosive to the basket.

summerwind03
10-18-2008, 02:33 PM
Thanks so much for the writeups, you guys. I'm hoping more folks will add on after the game.

Jumbo
10-18-2008, 03:02 PM
My christmas wish-- Starting 5 of Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler and Plumlee.

You just might get it.

Edouble
10-18-2008, 03:10 PM
You just might get it.

WOW! :eek:

wisteria
10-18-2008, 03:14 PM
Count me in as one who is excited about Miles. If he can play like this all the time, (that's a big IF, I know), he could very well be the best pickup in this class. Very nice surprise. He should probably start, considering the alternative options we have.

bludvlman
10-18-2008, 03:27 PM
I see the starting five being:

Paulus
Scheyer
Henderson
Singler
Plumlee

With Nolan being the 6th Man

BlueintheFace
10-18-2008, 04:21 PM
I see the starting five being:

Paulus
Scheyer
Henderson
Singler
Plumlee

With Nolan being the 6th Man

I actually think that Lance will start out at the five spot in the beginning, but I agree that this will eventually be the starting lineup. Certainly the chances of Plumlee starting over Thomas/Zoubek is greater than Nolan starting over Paulus.

phaedrus
10-18-2008, 04:36 PM
You just might get it.

And before Christmas, too. Actually, I think Paulus will continue to start indefinitely but he may not play any more minutes than Nolan. Of course, the real question is who will be in at the end.

McClure played really well today, especially in the second game. He's just a defensive force.

mgtr
10-18-2008, 04:37 PM
As I recall, back when the Plummer family was first being discussed, about the time that Miles suddenly commited to us, there was a comment that Stanford had expected him to come in and being ready to play. That would certainly be consistent with him getting minutes early in the season, though I don't imagine he would start the first game.

BlueintheFace
10-18-2008, 04:49 PM
Actually, I think Paulus will continue to start indefinitely but he may not play any more minutes than Nolan.

good point. Recall that Jason Kidd started throughout the olympics, including the gold medal game, despite CP3 and Deron Williams waiting in the wings. In this case you have the senior veteran, but no overwhelmingly better stars waiting in the wings, just a very talented kid with great potential and great athleticism. Paulus will continue to start for a long time...

Jumbo
10-18-2008, 04:51 PM
Paulus will continue to start for a long time...

If you say so ...

BlueintheFace
10-18-2008, 05:03 PM
If you say so ...

well perhaps "long time" is an over-exaggeration, but i do believe my parallel is applicable.

By the way- Jumbo once again has proved his brilliance by being the first to hype Plumlee as a potential starter. Let's not forget that he was the first one to say it...

Oriole Way
10-18-2008, 05:06 PM
Honestly, I hope Nolan starts at PG sooner rather than later. Not only do I think that Nolan's abilities are a better fit for this team (and that Duke can advance further in the tourney come March with a point that can penetrate and defend elite point guards), but it will mean that K is not hesitant to let his best players play. In other words, Paulus and his status as senior and captain won't keep him as a starter based on experience alone. I know that K has played younger players in favor of vets (Duhon replacing Nate James in 2001), but I'm not sure I've seen it with a player of Paulus' experience in quite some time.

Also, it looks like Jumbo was right about Miles possibly starting. I was surprised when he said that in another thread, but I'm excited for the possibility, just as much as Nolan manning the point. Miles starting will mean he's good enough to make an impact, and that the post position will be effectively deep this year.

Promising stuff... I will be extremely happy to see Nolan and Miles starting and being productive.

dukebballcamper90-91
10-18-2008, 05:33 PM
I have a lot of love for Paulus but I think he will be like a starting pitcher heading to the bullpen and there is not a thing wrong with that. I think he would accept it and play his role when he is in the game. I love him taking the big shots. I like Defense, I like Nolan's aggressive style on D. I don't think nobody has mentioned Gerald's D looks real good. EMail was not able to do really anything while Gerald was guarding him.

ACCBBallFan
10-18-2008, 06:08 PM
Only one part of this thread's inference I do not agree with. Brian Zoubek always played for the Underdog and never had the benefit that Miles Plumlee and Lance Thomas had to pair with the obvious starters Singler, Henderson and Scheyer.

I think K did this intentionally as a lineup with the dominantly huge Zoubek (albeit turnover prone) with these three and either Nolan or Greg would just embarass the post defender in front of the Cameron Crazies, whether that be Miles or Lance or Dave or Olek, two of whom would have been hopelessly overmatched trying to cover Zoubek and Singler. There is not so much a disparity acorss Paulus/Smith that switching them would have materially affected the balance of the two teams. So the imbalance of the two outcomes is somewhat difficult to rationalize.

Zoubek is clearly one of Duke's top two post guys by default and Greg is one of Duke's top two PGs also by default.

So in a closed door practice, I would think coach K and his staff might want to keep the practice squad relatively fixed (Olek,Lance, Dave, Marty and Elliott) and maximize his top 7 (end of year minimum) who at this point appear to be (even if that results if starters creaming the subs which builds starters confidence):

Plumlee/Zoubek in either order if only top 7 play, then Dave or Olek during OOC, bringing Lance into the mix only if fouls mount.

Singler at 4 backed up by a 5 and a 3 Plumlee/Henderson if only 7 play at year end, but also by winner of Lance/Dave sweepstakes during regular season.

Henderson at 3 backed up by at 4 and a 2 Singler/Scheyer if only 7 play but also by winner of Pocius/Williams sweepstakes during regular season.

Scheyer at SG backed up by a PG Paulus/Smith if only top 7 play, then by Elliott or Marty during regular season

Smith/Paulus in either order, with Elliott/Marty having practiced the role for emergency duty or Scheyer.

Olek is lost and easiest position to learn may be post defender versus Zoubek or leverage his athleitc ability guarding Henderson, while Elliottt practices the PG slot.

McClure and Lance would be competing to earn Plumlee's slot in top 7 by showing their stuff guarding Plumlee, Singler and Zoubek and in McClure's case Henderson also.

Pocius and Williams would be competing to earn Nolan's or Greg's Backup PG slot and Scheyer's backup SG slot by showing their stuff taking turns running the B-team PG slot, with the other guarding Scheyer.

Neither Greg nor Nolan is big enough to play the WF. So winner of this competition earns backup to Gerald role.

Have not seen the second half stats yet but seems to be Marty did a better job slowing down Henderson than Elliott Williams did (G had 16 in first half). So some of the folklore about Marty being a weak link on defense may be past history.

arnie
10-18-2008, 06:44 PM
I actually think that Lance will start out at the five spot in the beginning, but I agree that this will eventually be the starting lineup. Certainly the chances of Plumlee starting over Thomas/Zoubek is greater than Nolan starting over Paulus.

I watched the scrimmage today and have to ask - Lance who? I think Plumlee gets most of the minutes in the post with Zoubek filling in. Lance just doesn't seem to have the tools to play at either power position.

I also agree that Nolan will likely play a lot at the point, but doubt K will not start Paulus this year.

chrisheery
10-18-2008, 07:01 PM
marty might be the backup 3 with the way things went today. i guess scheyer can play the 3 too if greg and nolan are on the floor at the same time.

BlueintheFace
10-18-2008, 07:03 PM
...easy boys. It was just an exhibition intra-squad practice. Let's not extrapolate too much or too far...

MChambers
10-18-2008, 07:17 PM
...easy boys. It was just an exhibition intra-squad practice. Let's not extrapolate too much or too far...

Time to start worrying about Miles jumping to the NBA! It's never too soon to worry!

1Devil
10-18-2008, 07:17 PM
I actually think that Lance will start out at the five spot in the beginning...

I can't think of any reason why this should be the case. Zoubek will start before Lance does. Anyway, Miles is the man.

quickgtp
10-18-2008, 07:22 PM
...easy boys. It was just an exhibition intra-squad practice. Let's not extrapolate too much or too far...

THANK YOU!!!!

I was there today as well and I think we are getting a bit carried away here guys. All the players seemed to show promise at some point or another. I do agree that OC looked lost, but he will get better as time goes on. Marty's shot was smooth, GH looks unstoppable, and Email was consistent, though he didn't get alot of chances with GH on him. I agree that Paulus will continue to start, and that doesn't matter to me as long as the best players are on the floor at the end of a close game. Brian still looks the same to me, and I am not sure if he will get much better DTR. I hope I am wrong on that one.

I hope you all are right on with Miles, but lets see him play polished players in the paint.....

dukelifer
10-18-2008, 07:23 PM
We should all remember it is very early but some very early impressions from the game.

Smith looks to be ready to make a big step up this year. Hopefully the injury that hampered him at the end of the year last year is better and he is able to play at a high level throughout the season. He brings a lot to the team. Paulus is likely not to be much better than last year-but last years Paulus was pretty good- and will again be Duke's best outside shooter

Henderson looks to have improved his handle and shot over the summer. He could be much more consistent this year. Maybe it is the bald head.

Singler and Scheyer showed they are as good as we thought they are and the only question, like last year, is how well they hold up over the season.

If Pocius can stay healthy, he can be a real weapon on O. He is clearly a more confident player. I expect him to play more than Williams early in the season.

Williams did not show much today but is long. He may be a work in progress. His jumper needs some work. If he can develop his D, he and Nolan could do some damage.

Czyz is raw. Like King of last year- he has a skillset (mostly jumping high and being active) but has much to learn about where to be on the court. He also struggled a bit with hanging on to the ball.

I expected more improvement in Thomas's game but did not see it yet. He may be more comfortable facing the basket- which seems to what he will be doing this year- we will see. Thomas's play could be a key this season.

Zoubek is somewhat smoother looking. McClure looked like the old veteran he is out there- nothing flashy but will do the dirty work.

Plumlee was by far the biggest surprise. He is clearly the second biggest guy on the team. He moves and runs very well for a big guy and has excellent court awareness. On one fast break play, he has his head up, located the open man and pointed and yelled so Scheyer could deliver the ball. He also showed a nice jump hook, little 10 foot jumper, a left handed shot and a nice layup off an assist. He got a bunch of fouls which could limit his paying time- but the kid has skills and his really much better suited to the offense than either Thomas or Zoubek. He has soft hands and is always around the ball but may be out muscled for rebounds- Still he is likely to play a lot this season. He will be an excellent college player in time. He has been well coached.

My biggest concern for this team is rebounding. Demarcus's scoring will be replaced but he could mix it up ad get bounds in traffic. Not sure who will be doing that this year. Plumlee may but needs to get stronger.

Wander
10-18-2008, 08:47 PM
My official prediction for our starting lineup is Asack-Pocius-Czyz-Czyz-Zoubek.

Kedsy
10-18-2008, 08:48 PM
I did not see the scrimmage today, but that won't stop me from commenting...



Scheyer and Singler shot the ball well from the outside. It's already pretty clear that when Singler doesn't have to guard the other team's 5, he's a lot less tired and able to be deadly from the outside and off the dribble.


Last year, Singler shot remarkably well and played at a very high level for three quarters of the season. He guarded the other team's 5 for much of the year, but he didn't seem to run out of steam until the last few weeks. It is inconceivable that anything regarding his conditioning and/or degree of tiredness can be "pretty clear" at this stage of the season.


So in a closed door practice, I would think coach K and his staff might want to keep the practice squad relatively fixed (Olek,Lance, Dave, Marty and Elliott) and maximize his top 7 (end of year minimum)...

I haven't the slightest idea how K structures his practices. Do you? It would surprise me if you did.

I understand K has gone down to a rotation of 7 (or even 6) in the past, but with all the quality depth he has this year I would be very unpleasantly surprised if the rotation contained fewer than 9 players.

And if for some reason K chooses to go with 7, it's hard to imagine Zoubek being the 7th guy ahead of either Thomas or Williams. Obviously you can't read too much into an intrasquad scrimmage, but using today's comments as an overlay on Z's past play, it sounds like he'll be the 9th man this year. (I haven't seen E-Mail play, so my opinion of him is based purely on what I read, and thus I could be wrong about thinking so highly of him but I don't think I am.)


McClure and Lance would be competing to earn Plumlee's slot in top 7...

Lance Thomas was a starter all year last year and most of the year in 2006-07, yet you are relegating him to competing for the right to backup the 7th guy in the rotation. Anything's possible, I suppose, but this would be a complete shock. Thomas will be somewhere in the regular rotation.

_Gary
10-18-2008, 09:03 PM
I understand K has gone down to a rotation of 7 (or even 6) in the past, but with all the quality depth he has this year I would be very unpleasantly surprised if the rotation contained fewer than 9 players.

Are we talking about December or March? LOL. Sorry about that, but it was just sitting there begging for me to do something with it.

In all seriousness, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sure seems like we should have a really solid 9 and I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed that no one gets injured (that would be a first for us in a long time) and that we really do have a solid, healthy, seasoned team going into March. As everyone knows, March & April are really the only months that count in my mind. Don't get me wrong, I watch from the opening tip all the way through, but if we aren't peaking and performing at a decent level in March, I can't get too excited about a season. I know that makes me a bad person and sets me up for much more disappointment than joy, but it just is what it is. Ask me how I felt about my favorite pro football team, the NE Patriots, last year after the Superbowl. Not too great. And half a year hasn't dulled the pain and I doubt it ever will. I'd rather have seen them go 9-7 in the regular season and win the big one than do what they did last year. The same most assuredly goes for Duke, but as with all fans - your mileage may vary.


Gary

6th Man
10-18-2008, 09:13 PM
Here is my take on the Blue-White...I couldn't help but wonder if K's starters for the season were the white team for the first 15 minute scrimmage. Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler, and Plumlee. They absolutely smoked the Blue Team. For the second 15 minute scrimmage Smith and Paulus exchanged teams as well as Plumlee and Williams I believe. Nolan and Marty went off and the Blue Team won. So Nolan was 2-0 and Paulus was 0-2.

Plumlee surprised me as well. For fans that have not seen him, do not expect an all-american, but expect a player that can finish down low when he should and seems to have decent athletic ability. I would expect him to log some major minutes. Very happy about him.

Paulus was Paulus to me. Henderson looked like he could be our go to guy if he chooses to be. Scheyer played very well. Such a smart player. Ditto for Kyle. Lance Thomas didn't show me much nor did Olek. Pocius played well, but he always does in these games. Nolan was great. Elliot didn't do as much as I had hoped, but keep in mind he probably had the toughest draw. He had to guard Henderson and be guarded by him in the first game. Then he had to contend with Nolan some in the second.

Overall Plumlee will be a difference maker this season. I am concerned about rebounds. There isn't a lot of serious beef on this team. They will just have to out quick everyone I guess. I am expecting a similar season to last year with a much stronger finish.

Ima Facultiwyfe
10-18-2008, 09:19 PM
Okay, so you've all covered the important stuff, now for the other jazz. The new scoreboard is awesome. The new Devil was really fiesty and fun....and can DANCE! We're gonna like him. The pre-game show on the jumbotron...."This is OUR HOUSE".....gave me shivvers. Hope they do it every game. The football team's Devil Walk through Cameron was just terrific. We brought the house down as the team walked through and as Coach K said, we showed that we're all in this together. The band sounded big and brassy. We came away feeling that this is, indeed, the dawn of a new day for all of us.

Bless everybody's hearts!
Love, Ima

heyman25
10-18-2008, 09:42 PM
Zoubek is 7'1 260 that is size and beef. However he still doesn't seem to perform well from what I have read. Maybe Nate James or Chris Carrawell can light a fire. Its early and this is only his 2nd day playing basketball since his foot surgery. Maybe the conditioning coach can make him work harder to get some coordination to go with his size.
Maybe Plumlee passing him by in skill level will motivate him. Thomas needs to focus on rebounding, having 2 or 3 per game will not help this team out. In any event if they all stay healthy we will have a much better season.

Cameron
10-18-2008, 10:02 PM
Zoubek will start before Lance does.

I watched the game today, and I hope we don't see Zoubek starting. I know he had the surgery and everything, but the improvement is obviously not there. He still looks like the project he was two years ago. Soft with the ball, crazy push, loop around shot toss taking, and so on. Sure he's tall, but so are buildings. I like him a lot, but I just don't see it. He still doesn't "get it" yet. Besides, we are so much more quick/fluent an offense when a more athletic forward plays in his spot.

Honestly, I hope it's either Lance or Miles starting with Kyle in the front court. I really like the intensity I saw out of both of them. Miles showcased himself a little better today, but I liked what I saw out of both for the most part. Lance just didn't assert himself as much as he could have offensively, which is why many here walked away unimpressed. He's a tough kid. He'll be fine.

On a different note, the extended three-point line talk is OVER. Not going to change a thing. Our boys were stroking it beautifully today. Sorry to all those anti-Duke folk who said our offense would die once the three ball was pushed back, but nope. As always, we feature a barrage of shooters that know not parameters.

And with a good, deep front court cast to accompany those shooters, we are going to be special.

Also, I agree with those who have discussed the Singler playing up situation already. With Plumlee looking to be a very versatile, strong, and athletic fit for us, Kyle won't be expected to match-up with opposing 5's so often, and therefore should be able to keep his legs/strength late in games. I would have loved to see what he could have done playing at his natural position all season in '07-'08.

Miles looks great! And can Marty stick any minutes this year? He fit in nicely today, but was it just the Nick Horvath effect?

Richard Berg
10-18-2008, 10:17 PM
I agree with everything DukeLifer wrote. Additional comments on a few things that stood out...



Paulus is Paulus. Best Three point shooter on the team/very few turnovers... defensive liability/not great getting to the rim.
Seemed to get discouraged in the last 5min of the first game (blowout). Very un-Paulus like. Ditto the missed free throws at the end of the 2nd.

He did beat Nolan off the dribble a few times. However, like you say he rarely made it to the rim -- usually was cut off by Singler, had to dribble behind the basket, and restart the O.

On defense he didn't really get torched by quick driving. Moreso that he had to sag off, allowing opponents more room to take outside shots and find entry pass angles.

The most concerning piece of his game to me (a longtime supporter of his on this board) was Blue's inability to beat the press. Much of this blame goes to clueless teammates like Czyz, but fact is he was the PG & senior leader on his squad and couldn't get the ball into the frontcourt reliably. When he did, the O often went nowhere, eventually settling for an overly rushed screen-n-pop 3pt, or worse, a Lance Thomas 15-footer. Contrast that with the White squad who shot 80%.


Zoubek did look better but seems to still have some issues with simply putting the ball in the basket. Thomas is the same as last year- maybe a bit quicker with his movement with the basketball.
Yup, this was the least fun thing to watch. Big Z missed at least 4 layups, including one where he was wide open on a broken play. While he ended up with a fair # of rebounds, he seemed to be outhustled or outmaneuvered for just as many.

Thomas is still rail thin, no shot from outside 8' (or the foul line), not a lot of creativity. He did have some great hustle plays, but when push came to shove could not score over either Singler (as Blue) nor McClure (White).


E-Will needs to learn how to take a charge, but his defense is great. Not sure what to make of his offensive package yet... to be determined

Not just charges. Many fundamentals are good but it's clear a wide range of behaviors are called / not called differently by D1 refs than what he's used to.

On offense I feel comfortable saying he has the quickest first step on the team, quickest overall dribbler I've seen at Duke in awhile. Problem is he got out of control almost every time he reached Mach speed. He'd get a half step in front of his man but fail to completely turn the corner, instead ending up in the air with a wild shot. Or in transition, he'd blaze past midcourt defenders only to turn it over 1-on-1. It's not a matter of being undisciplined; he stayed out of the way much of the time (probably to the first Blue team's detriment, who really needed some quickness & ballhandling). Just needs more reminders that it's not good enough to simply blow by / elevate over people in the college game.


Pocius is a scoring machine...
Err, he was streaky. Throughout the first game he was handed the ball with license to make something happen, yet couldn't get it done. Once he dunked early in the second game he loosened up considerably, but still rushed a few shots and had some ugly turnovers trying to feed Zoubek with a bounce pass.


Paulus will continue to start for a long time...
Based on evidence from a variety of folks today* I would wager he is handed the keys sooner than later.

*some students who are in Nolan's dorm; a team manager (not mbball); K's choice of B-W lines and subsequent rotations


My official prediction for our starting lineup is Asack-Pocius-Czyz-Czyz-Zoubek.
POTD!

Richard Berg
10-18-2008, 10:21 PM
On a different note, the extended three-point line talk is OVER. Not going to change a thing. Our boys were stroking it beautifully today. Sorry to all those anti-Duke folk who said our offense would die once the three ball was pushed back, but nope. As always, we feature a barrage of shooters that know not parameters.
We also featured very little defense today. The new 3pt line is not enough to alter game/season results, IMO, but rest assured it will take its statistical toll.

ACCBBallFan
10-18-2008, 10:28 PM
I was not projecting that coach K would only play 7 in the exhibitions, OOC or even most ACC games, just closer to 7 or 8 rather than 9 or 10 once Duke gets into ACC Tourney and NCAA Tourney, as every coach does. Need to practice with that end state in mind.

People down on Zoubek are not recognizing the difference of being paired with Singler, Henderson and Scheyer versus playing both games against them.

Even with that disadvantage, only Singler (20) outscored Zoubek (10) among the Talls with Plumlee (8 White, 0 Blue), Thomas (3 White, 3 Blue) and McClure (0 White, 4 Blue), and difference would have been even greater had Zoubs 6 Blue, 4 Blue) been on the White team one of the halves.

Brian is never going to gain any style points but he is so huge at 7' 1" 280, he is easily one of Duke's best two centers when healthy.

I just think it is a bad sign for Duke if undersized Lance @ 6' 8" 220 is one of its best two post players. Better to have Zoubek and Plumlee 6'10" 240 and apparently playing better so far, share that duty if they can stay out of foul trouble and have Lance back up Kyle.

When fouls mount, I would choose the veteran McClure over Lance as post defender because he plays smarter, rebounds better, knows the Duke system in 5th year etc., but pick Lance over Dave for Kyle's backup based somewhat on gut feeling and also because Lance started over Dave last year, so his job to lose.

Lance did start at center quite a bit last year but it was more out of default with Zoubek injured and no one else Miles Plumlee's size on the team.

As the other poster indicated, I too have no idea how coach K runs his practices, just offering an opinion that if I had to split Duke into a top 7 and a bottom 7 at this point (may change as season progresses)

In alpha order top 7 and maintain a decent amount of balance in size, though IMO Henderson, Scheyer and Singler in any order are top 3:

Henderson - WF
Paulus - PG/SG
Plumlee - C/PF
Scheyer - SG/WF
Singler - PF
Smith - PG/SG
Zoubek - C

Players aspiring to be in top 7 in both alpha order and seniority order by coincidence

McClure - PF/C
Pocius - G
Thomas - SF/PF
Williams - G

Reserves may also aspire but not realistic this year

Czyz - Big
Davidson - G
Johnson - F

My poiint was if you want to maximize improvement of Zoubek/Miles and Paulus/Smith better to pair them with top 3 of Singler, Henderson and Scheyer who they will team with in a game than to switch back and forth from Blue to White.

Need to do that sometimes for example after Zoubek improves his footwork so he practices against Plumlee and Singler better competition than Olek, Lance and Dave some, but get him in sync with the guys he will be paired with in a game first.

He will obviously play better with the White team against the Blue than on the Blue team against the White. So build his confidence first, then refine his skills because Singler, Henderson and Scheyer are too smart and will double him, something opponents could not do when he is paired with Kyle, Gerald and Jon.

In this way, Plumlee and Zoubek are measured vs. the same competition as are Greg/Nolan and decisions can be made game to game according to who earns it in practice.

Over course of season perhaps Lance or Dave supplants Miles or Brian but size working against them; or Elliott or Marty supplants Nolan or Greg, but not an easy task for either of them to be one of Duke's top 2 PGs and Duke is deep on perimeter with its top 3 players at the same perimter position these aspiring 4 (McClure, Pocius, Thomas and Williams) are best suited for.

So it is as much a case of Zoubek and Plumlee being the biggest and Paulus/Smith being the most experienced PGs than any of them necessarily being significantly better players overall than the next 4.

More often these bottom 7 would be paired as a group in mop up situations than with the top 7 but need to sometimes give them to opportunity to team with top 7 for when they sometimes enter a game teamed with them.

DU82
10-18-2008, 10:32 PM
Okay, so you've all covered the important stuff, now for the other jazz. The new scoreboard is awesome. The new Devil was really fiesty and fun....and can DANCE! We're gonna like him. The pre-game show on the jumbotron...."This is OUR HOUSE".....gave me shivvers. Hope they do it every game. The football team's Devil Walk through Cameron was just terrific. We brought the house down as the team walked through and as Coach K said, we showed that we're all in this together. The band sounded big and brassy. We came away feeling that this is, indeed, the dawn of a new day for all of us.

Bless everybody's hearts!
Love, Ima

I would have to disagree a bit. Where were the total team fouls on the new scoreboard. I don't need individual rebounds, I need to have more important game stats, such as the fouls and timeouts. (Yes, the aux. scoreboards in the corners, which are also new, have the total team fouls, but not everybody can see one of those boards.) I do hope the video stuff is reserved for pre-game intros only.

The resolution for the ads on top and bottom is pretty hard on the eyes, although the main board is great (we can all now tell the difference between a 5 and a 6 and an 8!) I'd dump the curved logo on the top of the individual stats to give more space for the other things. As an alternative, Coke and Verizon could give up two of the four sides each, and have the additional information on the bottom LED panel (Put team fouls on each edge, with the ad in the middle.)

Different scoreboard (and game), but what was up with that "Duke Football Song" at the end of the third quarter? Our team was down (but not quite out) we need some cheering, and they play that song to completely kill the crowd and cheering? That, and when we just scored to go up ten early in the second half, we don't need Christopher Walken.

The new Devil is certainly worth the money (both the new costume, and the person in it.)

DevilCastDownfromDurham
10-18-2008, 10:58 PM
Thanks to everyone for the reports on the Blue-White game. I've really enjoyed reading those and, especially, the back-and-forth analysis. It's great to hear that Plumlee is as far along as it sounds like he is (maybe Jumbo knows what he's talking about after all...:p). I'm sure a lot of folks are out enjoying the Saturday night festivities/drowning their football-related sorrows, so I'm looking forward to hearing even more reports/analysis in the light of day tomorrow. Again, thanks to all for the informative and thoughtful posts, us basketball-starved folks that couldn't be there really appreciate it and are hungrily waiting for anything else you saw. Can't wait to see these guys in real games! :)

Bob Green
10-18-2008, 11:49 PM
Yup, this was the least fun thing to watch. Big Z missed at least 4 layups...

Here is the official Box Score (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1606669). Zoubek was 3-6 from the Field and 4-4 from the Free Throw line. The facts do not support your statement.


People down on Zoubek are not recognizing the difference of being paired with Singler, Henderson and Scheyer versus playing both games against them.

Thank you! Before we get ahead of ourselves, let's see what Zoubek does in the exhibition games when he is on the court with Singler, Henderson, and Scheyer.


I watched the game today, and I hope we don't see Zoubek starting. I know he had the surgery and everything, but the improvement is obviously not there. He still looks like the project he was two years ago.

Two years ago Brian Zoubek scored 27 points and grabbed 10 rebounds (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=660295) in the Blue/White game. Right now he is still coming back from his latest foot surgery so I think it is a little early to throw him under the bus.

We need solid post play this year and I'm optimistic the pieces are in place for this to happen. Zoubek and Plumlee combined for 18 points, 8 rebounds, and zero turnovers in 39 minutes. Hopefully, they both stay healthy, improve over the course of the season, and combine for similar statistics during games in March/April.

weezie
10-18-2008, 11:49 PM
Who was K talking to/recruiting behind and to his right? In the USA-NBA warm-up jacket? The guy looked HUGE.

Cameron
10-19-2008, 12:58 AM
Right now he is still coming back from his latest foot surgery so I think it is a little early to throw him under the bus.

I'm not trying to throw Brian under the bus, but, from what I saw, it all just looks the same. He just doesn't seem able to match true basketball skill with his height, and, as is the case with a lot of guys resembling Zoubek's awkward frame, that's something he might not break.


Two years ago Brian Zoubek scored 27 points and grabbed 10 rebounds in the Blue/White game.

And, if I remember correctly, Taylor King (or King Taylor, rather) had 19 or 20 points and a ton of triples a year ago on Blue-White night, and we all know what he went on to accomplish come ACC time. So.. Brian has gotten worse is your point, I guess?

I understand your point (one game is only one game, especially in October, and is certainly not a true precursor of what is to come), but I'm a glass half empty person, unfortunately.

Look, I hope Brian jumps my cynical barriers and leads this team in rebounding and shot blocking and we go dancing in April. I would enjoy that. I was merely reporting what I saw from the contest today.

On a brighter note, Nolan looks to being taking over Markie's departed spot as Duke's primetime defender. Boy was he playing Greg nicely today in the open court, one-on-one, in the time they were matched up. Nolan vs. Ty should be worth the price of admission come February.

Bob Green
10-19-2008, 01:41 AM
So.. Brian has gotten worse is your point, I guess?

I understand your point (one game is only one game, especially in October, and is certainly not a true precursor of what is to come), but I'm a glass half empty person, unfortunately.



My point is twofold. First, Zoubek scored 10 points and grabbed 3 rebounds in 17 minutes on the Blue Team. He didn't have an opportunity to run with the starters. Let's see what he does when he is on the court alongside Singler, Henderson, and Scheyer. He might have put up numbers similar to 2006 if he had played on the White Team. Second, we are going to need solid play from multiple post players. IMO, Zoubek and Plumlee are the two most likely to get the job done over the long haul. We need both to stay healthy and improve over the course of the season.

I'm ecstatic that Plumlee is impressing the staff and competing for a starting job because it makes the team stronger. The purpose of my participation in this thread is to encourage people to give Zoubek and Plumlee their due. We need them both. The objective is to still be playing in April.

I'm a glass half full person.

El_Diablo
10-19-2008, 06:38 AM
As the other poster indicated, I too have no idea how coach K runs his practices, just offering an opinion that if I had to split Duke into a top 7 and a bottom 7 at this point (may change as season progresses)

In alpha order top 7 and maintain a decent amount of balance in size, though IMO Henderson, Scheyer and Singler in any order are top 3:

Henderson - WF
Paulus - PG/SG
Plumlee - C/PF
Scheyer - SG/WF
Singler - PF
Smith - PG/SG
Zoubek - C

Players aspiring to be in top 7 in both alpha order and seniority order by coincidence

McClure - PF/C
Pocius - G
Thomas - SF/PF
Williams - G

Reserves may also aspire but not realistic this year

Czyz - Big
Davidson - G
Johnson - F


This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...at least for the 5-on-5 portions of practice. Yeah, it might contribute to chemistry among the top seven to play in this type of rotation every once in a while, but I imagine it would be much more beneficial to have numbers 6 and 7 on the opposing practice team to get more playing time. This way Paulus plays against Smith every night (instead of Marty and Davidson), and Zoubek plays against Plumlee (instead of McClure and Czyz).

Of course, I don't know any more than you do, and you might be entirely right. :D

In the end, it doesn't really matter--so long as they keep improving in practice and win when it counts.

MChambers
10-19-2008, 06:49 AM
I'm not trying to throw Brian under the bus, but, from what I saw, it all just looks the same. He just doesn't seem able to match true basketball skill with his height, and, as is the case with a lot of guys resembling Zoubek's awkward frame, that's something he might not break.

He's 7'2". If he matches his skill to his height, it would be scary.

Come on, folks, he starting working out again in mid-August, according to reports. He's spent a lot of time on crutches the last two years. I'd expect to see steady improvement over the course of the season. By February, he'll be much better.

1Devil
10-19-2008, 07:09 AM
IMO, Zoubek and Plumlee are the two most likely to get the job done over the long haul. We need both to stay healthy and improve over the course of the season.

I'm ecstatic that Plumlee is impressing the staff and competing for a starting job because it makes the team stronger. The purpose of my participation in this thread is to encourage people to give Zoubek and Plumlee their due. We need them both.

I agree. Plumlee and Zoubek (either order) are the only guys we should see playing center this year, barring fouls or the need to go small. They should be a good tandem for us.

Cameron
10-19-2008, 07:57 AM
I certainly respect where you are coming from Bob.

Don't get me wrong, I hope you are all right about Brian and his wonderful progression, and I will be rooting for it to happen.

If it does, then yes, we will be much tougher to beat. A skilled Zoubek would be scary, there is no doubt about that. MChambers has it right.

Wander
10-19-2008, 08:25 AM
Thank you! Before we get ahead of ourselves, let's see what Zoubek does in the exhibition games when he is on the court with Singler, Henderson, and Scheyer.


If Zoubek gets owned by UNC, are we going to come out and say "well, it's not really fair, he would have done better if he had Hansbrough on his team?"

I don't put too much stock into these games, and I'm not throwing Z under the bus, but this line of reasoning seems ridiculous to the nth degree.

Wander
10-19-2008, 08:38 AM
Also, I want to get a word in on the whole scrimmages are worthless vs. scrimmages are awesome argument.

You can learn things from practices/summer games, but you have to be intelligent in what you're looking for. I seem to remember some people here with comments along the lines of "Czyz's dunks were fun to watch, but I think in ACC play a lot of his efforts would turn into turnovers or offensive fouls." Things like "Singler added a lot of muscle" or "G seems to have more range on open threes" are observations that will very likely be relevant during actual games. These practices certainly have a very limited use but as long as you don't go crazy over who had the most points and keep a level head they're not 100% meaningless.

Kedsy
10-19-2008, 10:56 AM
Zoubek and Plumlee combined for 18 points, 8 rebounds, and zero turnovers in 39 minutes. Hopefully, they both stay healthy, improve over the course of the season, and combine for similar statistics during games in March/April.

I like the zero turnovers (and also Zoubek's 4 for 4 from the line) but, come March, I'll gladly trade some of those 18 points for a few more rebounds. Especially in a game where the third tallest player on either team was 6'8" (and not particularly wide), I would have hoped the two big guys would have dominated the boards. Alas, it was not to be.

COYS
10-19-2008, 11:50 AM
I like the zero turnovers (and also Zoubek's 4 for 4 from the line) but, come March, I'll gladly trade some of those 18 points for a few more rebounds. Especially in a game where the third tallest player on either team was 6'8" (and not particularly wide), I would have hoped the two big guys would have dominated the boards. Alas, it was not to be.

Well, it sounds like there weren't very many missed shots for Zoubs to rebound in the first game.

zingit
10-19-2008, 02:43 PM
Seemed to get discouraged in the last 5min of the first game (blowout). Very un-Paulus like. Ditto the missed free throws at the end of the 2nd.

He did beat Nolan off the dribble a few times. However, like you say he rarely made it to the rim -- usually was cut off by Singler, had to dribble behind the basket, and restart the O.

On defense he didn't really get torched by quick driving. Moreso that he had to sag off, allowing opponents more room to take outside shots and find entry pass angles.

The most concerning piece of his game to me (a longtime supporter of his on this board) was Blue's inability to beat the press. Much of this blame goes to clueless teammates like Czyz, but fact is he was the PG & senior leader on his squad and couldn't get the ball into the frontcourt reliably. When he did, the O often went nowhere, eventually settling for an overly rushed screen-n-pop 3pt, or worse, a Lance Thomas 15-footer. Contrast that with the White squad who shot 80%.

Thank you! This was the best analysis of Paulus's play yesterday that I've seen yet. I agree that his biggest problem yesterday was not the one-on-one match-up with Nolan Smith (like you said, a lot of the credit for stopping Paulus and his team goes to other players as well, like Singler), or that he's "slow" and "unathletic," but the fact that he had trouble directing the offense. Way too much standing around and trying to get something started--and failing. Just seemed to be a generally bad game for him.

I like Paulus a lot, and I'm hoping that yesterday's game was not a sign of the year to come for him. Of course I like to see him--and ALL our players--do well. I don't want to extrapolate too much from one game--especially the Blue-White game, which has been a notoriously bad predictor of future performance. In any case, I like our team, and the fact that the blue team won one just shows how much depth this team has. The competition between Greg and Nolan should be good for both of them and for the team. Whoever ends up starting, or getting more minutes, or whatever, I'm glad they're all playing on the same team from now on!

Bluedog
10-19-2008, 02:57 PM
I found this quote strange:

Assuming for argument’s sake that Paulus, Henderson, Singler, Zoubek and Thomas start, Duke will have a tremendous reserve core in Scheyer, Smith, Plumlee, Williams, Pocius, McClure, and Czyz.

I realize it's "for argument's sake," but the chances of us seeing that starting lineup is close to 0%, I'd expect. Scheyer not starting and Singler starting at the 3? Not gonna happen. Scheyer will not be part of the "reserve core" - he will be starting. As Coach K said, Scheyer, G, and Singler will be relied upon the most. I expect to see the three of them take over games. I'm glad that people have positive things to say about Plumlee. I think a Plumlee/Zoubek tandem at the 5 could work - we don't need them to be magical; just defend, get rebounds, not turn it over excessively, and get a couple garbage baskets. If that happens, this will be a fun team to watch.

Cameron
10-19-2008, 02:59 PM
If Zoubek gets owned by UNC, are we going to come out and say "well, it's not really fair, he would have done better if he had Hansbrough on his team?"

Not to mention, wouldn't it actually be more telling if Brian could play well against our best bigs? He did have either Plumlee or Thomas on his side in both periods, so it's not like he was playing solo in the front-court alongside four guards. He also had either Greg or Nolan as his setup men in each game.

Like I said, however, I would gladly accept being wrong come January.

Bob Green
10-19-2008, 03:10 PM
Not to mention, wouldn't it actually be more telling if Brian could play well against our best bigs?

Zoubek scored 10 points in 17 minutes. That's not shabby so I counter that Zoubek did play well against our best bigs. He was also 4 - 4 from the free throw line, which is a skill set he needs to improve on from last season's performance.

ACCBBallFan
10-19-2008, 03:16 PM
Here is the official Box Score (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1606669). Zoubek was 3-6 from the Field and 4-4 from the Free Throw line.

Bob Green, thanks for the Box score. Unfortunately it combines the two halves. Perhaps I can do some legwork to subtract the composite minus the first half on Gametracker to infer the second half.



Thank you! Before we get ahead of ourselves, let's see what Zoubek does in the exhibition games when he is on the court with Singler, Henderson, and Scheyer.

I agree it is important to distinguish results on the White team with the top 3 Duke guys Singler, Henderson and Scheyer from results against them. As the thread indicates, guys like Singler are smart enough to rotate, something harder for the compoetition to do when instead Greg or Marty or Zoubek is teamed with Singler, Henderson and Scheyer in a real game, making it a tougher choice when the opponent rotates and when they literally stay with their wing man.


This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...at least for the 5-on-5 portions of practice. Yeah, it might contribute to chemistry among the top seven to play in this type of rotation every once in a while, but I imagine it would be much more beneficial to have numbers 6 and 7 on the opposing practice team to get more playing time. This way Paulus plays against Smith every night (instead of Marty and Davidson), and Zoubek plays against Plumlee (instead of McClure and Czyz).

Of course, I don't know any more than you do, and you might be entirely right. :D

In the end, it doesn't really matter--so long as they keep improving in practice and win when it counts.

I agree with you as far as your suggestion went, but still think both approaches are needed.

Also agree neither or us or anybody posting on a message board for that matter will offer any insights coach K and his staff do not already know.

I see it more a matter of timing, and practicing up to the level of your competition. To prep for exhibitions and most OOC except finals of tournaments, the best 7 versus the worst 7 primarily with some of the mixing and matching of 6-7 onto the Blue team may be the way to go.

To prep for top half the ACC competition games and beyond, then more Zoubek vs. Plumlee rather than Olek/Dave and more Nolan vs. Greg rather than Elliott/Marty/Jordan everyday is the primary way to go, with less of the top 7 vs. bottom 7 approach, as confidence has already been built by then which is the time to refine slkill sets against best competition.

AtlDuke72
10-19-2008, 03:51 PM
Come on, folks, he starting working out again in mid-August, according to reports. He's spent a lot of time on crutches the last two years. I'd expect to see steady improvement over the course of the season. By February, he'll be much better.

I completely agree. Give the kid a break - he has been injured both of the last two summers. I was there when he outplayed McRoberts so badly in the Blue-white game two years ago that Coach K put them on the same team in the second half. I thought it was to keep McRoberts from getting embarased.
I think he will be a major factor this year and is much better than all the nay sayers on this Board give him credit for. Look at his points and rebounds per minute and you will see that he is a major problem for the other team when he is in the game. I hope I get to tell a lot of you I told you so at the end of this season!

ACCBBallFan
10-19-2008, 04:02 PM
Not to mention, wouldn't it actually be more telling if Brian could play well against our best bigs? He did have either Plumlee or Thomas on his side in both periods, so it's not like he was playing solo in the front-court alongside four guards. He also had either Greg or Nolan as his setup men in each game.


Zoubek scored 10 points in 17 minutes. That's not shabby so I counter that Zoubek did play well against our best bigs. He was also 4 - 4 from the free throw line, which is a skill set he needs to improve on from last season's performance.

Just to piggy back on what Green-san was saying, Zoubek's performance was a worst case scenario as Cameron was saying always paired with Plumlee or Lance. In most game situations he will have a better PF pairing with Kyle Singler rather than Lance or Miles but would still have one of them when Kyle was not in the game; and his wing man will be Gerald Henderson Duke's best wing and his SG will be Scheyer, also Duke's best. So his metrics would likely improve in a true game setting where his opponents will be inferior to Kyle-G-Jon and his teammates will be better than yesterday's Blue team.

On the Blue team, Zoubs did have one of Duke's best two PGs but also never had Duke's best 2 or best 3 or best 4. So it can only get better.

wolfpackdevil
10-19-2008, 04:53 PM
Just to piggy back on what Green-san was saying, Zoubek's performance was a worst case scenario as Cameron was saying always paired with Plumlee or Lance. In most game situations he will have a better PF pairing with Kyle Singler rather than Lance or Miles but would still have one of them when Kyle was not in the game; and his wing man will be Gerald Henderson Duke's best wing and his SG will be Scheyer, also Duke's best. So his metrics would likely improve in a true game setting where his opponents will be inferior to Kyle-G-Jon and his teammates will be better than yesterday's Blue team.

On the Blue team, Zoubs did have one of Duke's best two PGs but also never had Duke's best 2 or best 3 or best 4. So it can only get better.

I have to admit, I was not impressed at all by seeing our supposivly "best 6 guys": Paulus, Schyer, Henderson, Singler, Thomas and Williams, lose in the 2nd half game.

phaedrus
10-19-2008, 05:21 PM
I have to admit, I was not impressed at all by seeing our supposivly "best 6 guys": Paulus, Schyer, Henderson, Singler, Thomas and Williams, lose in the 2nd half game.

Then if that's who you had supposed were our 6 best guys, maybe it's time to re-examine that supposition.

To me, the main difference in the second game was defense: Nolan Smith switched teams, and McClure played like a beast in the second game. Those two are a defensive juggernaut that even our best three players had difficulty overcoming.

BlueintheFace
10-19-2008, 05:26 PM
Seemed to me that the difference was tired legs... it got a little ragged and there were faaaar more open court opportunities. I wouldn't read too much into the different results with the different lineups.

devildeac
10-19-2008, 05:41 PM
Some of the best/worst things about the BW game was the foul situation. We had 31 PF called against us (lousy ACC refs-who says we get all the calls:rolleyes:), 3 guys fouled out, but we still won because of our outstanding depth;).

RainingThrees
10-19-2008, 05:42 PM
So does anyone think Lance would play better backing up Singler and being a faceup player than than a low post player? He doesn't look comfortable in the low post, and he doesn't seem to have the handles or the shot to play at the high post or perimeter. I'm wondering, where is his natural position?

Diddy
10-19-2008, 05:47 PM
I didn't see the game, so I am basing my opinions on what various, TRUSTED posters have said.

First, Zoubek's injuries have been devasting to his development. I am not saying that to try and garner sympathy or to argue for patience. I am simply saying that the injuries were devastating. It has been obvious for years that he needs enhanced lower body strength. The only exercises for that are squats, lunges, cleans, and deadlifts. These exercises cannot be done with one foot (muscle imbalances). Calf raises, leg extensions, and leg curls have virtually no place in athletic training, and most top programs only use them to rehab serious knee injuries.

Z's foot injury completely prevented him from doing the weight work that he desperately needed. It also prevented him from working on his footwork and game this summer.

A lot of people hold out hopes for Z based on his first Blue White performance. Why? In retrospect, we now know that McRoberts was a complete cream puff in the middle who was terrified of physical contact. He retreated at the first sign of contact. Z should have gone off. There were no capable defenders to prevent the PG from making easy entrance passes (as Demarcus was not guarding the PG), and McBob was a hopeless low post defender. Against a quality defender, like Shel, Z might not have gotten off a shot or gotten a single rebound. Heck against even capable defenders like Boozer he might have had a diseheartening line of under 5 points and a handful of boards. What Z did against McBob means nothing.

I hope I am wrong, but I am beginning to fear that Z's foot trouble have completely derailed his career. He may never be more than a role player here at Duke. Especially with Miles looking good, and Mason being close next year. I just don't see minutes barring massive improvement.

As for Lance, he may not be a gamer. When I was at Duke, UNC had this kid, Max Something, who played with McGrady at that shady prep school in Durham. Supposedly, Max completely tore up UNC practices with shooting, driving, and dunking. He was never able to replicate it in games. He was so familiar with what his teammates did that he could dominate practice, but new opponenents gave him fits. Lance may be like that. K said he is doing well in practice. Sometimes, that never translates to game production. With the players we have this year, and certainly with what we could have next year, Lance may be the odd man out.

We may be in the last year of the Lance and Brian experiments. Should everyone (ie Henderson and Singler) return, then they might have rolls next year. Should one or both go pro early, next year would be a rebuilding year. K would almost have to go with younger player to prepare for the 10-11 NC run that we would be geared up for.

As for Paulus, do not be encouraged by him getting past Nolan. Greg is such a good shooter, and such a poor driver, that getting arround the first guy will be easy. Opponents guarding Paulus are scared of GP killing them from deep, not from penetrating. His defender will be within a couple inches, face guarding GP, to prevent him from getting off a shot. If Paulus gets arround his defender, what can he really do? Another defender can easily slide over (stupidly, as this leaves another shooter open), or simply let him get to the post where he cannot finish a drive at the rim. If GP's outside shooting gets shut down, or even severly restricted, he has almost no value on the court. It is harsh, but that's the way it is. He is a fantastic shooter, and that will merit him many quality minutes. But that is all he brings to the table.

We all love grit, guttiness, and effort. But unless those attributes translate to quantifiable contributions, the really don't mean much.

phaedrus
10-19-2008, 06:14 PM
In retrospect, we now know that McRoberts was a complete cream puff in the middle who was terrified of physical contact. He retreated at the first sign of contact.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, but this assertion is plain wrong. Josh was third in the ACC in rebounding as a soph behind Hansbrough and Jared Dudley (in fact, he was ahead of both in defensive rebounding), and second in blocked shots. He was on the ACC All-Defensive team. Josh's Shelden Williams impersonation was the primary reason we were a better-than-decent defensive and rebounding team for most of that season.

What you are recalling is that Josh was a poor low-post offensive threat. His footwork was weak and he was reluctant to take it hard to the basket. He certainly met all expectations on the other side of the floor, though.

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2006-2007/confldrs.html

CameronBornAndBred
10-19-2008, 06:19 PM
Well, it sounds like there weren't very many missed shots for Zoubs to rebound in the first game.

There were plenty of missed shots. I even remember mentioning out loud that it was scary that Zoubek was one of 2 people on the floor (at the time) with 0 rebounds.

One other observation..our free throw shooting has GOT to improve. It was dreadful in the scrimmage, and it hurt us so much last year.

DukeBlood
10-19-2008, 06:38 PM
One other observation..our free throw shooting has GOT to improve. It was dreadful in the scrimmage, and it hurt us so much last year.

I wouldn't say dreadful. 31/41 or 75% Is slightly above average I believe.

Last year only UNC(78%) and Miami(77%) were over that mark. Duke shot a 9th worst 69% last year from the charity stripe. Two years ago only Florida State(75%) hit that mark.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I would be happy with 75% for the year.

RelativeWays
10-19-2008, 06:46 PM
FT shooting has been a Duke hallmark for years and I'd love to see the team return to excellence in that position. Some people may not realize that we've won a ton of games because our players knew how to get to the line AND make most of their shots.

jimsumner
10-19-2008, 06:52 PM
"As for Lance, he may not be a gamer. When I was at Duke, UNC had this kid, Max Something, who played with McGrady at that shady prep school in Durham. Supposedly, Max completely tore up UNC practices with shooting, driving, and dunking"

Max was Max Owens. But Owens was a decent player. Your description better describes Orlando Melendez.

And everything I have seen and heard indicates that Zoubek and Thomas will both be in the rotation.

Kedsy
10-19-2008, 07:30 PM
As for Lance, he may not be a gamer. When I was at Duke, UNC had this kid, Max Something, who played with McGrady at that shady prep school in Durham. Supposedly, Max completely tore up UNC practices with shooting, driving, and dunking. He was never able to replicate it in games. He was so familiar with what his teammates did that he could dominate practice, but new opponenents gave him fits. Lance may be like that. K said he is doing well in practice. Sometimes, that never translates to game production. With the players we have this year, and certainly with what we could have next year, Lance may be the odd man out.


But the Blue/White game was a game against the very players with whom Lance is so familiar, so I don't see your point. He's been tearing it up in practice and shot 1 for 8 in the Blue/White game. Just asking, but wouldn't the simplest explanation be that he just had a bad game, rather than saying he can't play in game situations?

yancem
10-19-2008, 07:51 PM
Two years ago Brian Zoubek scored 27 points and grabbed 10 rebounds (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=660295) in the Blue/White game. Right now he is still coming back from his latest foot surgery so I think it is a little early to throw him under the bus.

We need solid post play this year and I'm optimistic the pieces are in place for this to happen. Zoubek and Plumlee combined for 18 points, 8 rebounds, and zero turnovers in 39 minutes. Hopefully, they both stay healthy, improve over the course of the season, and combine for similar statistics during games in March/April.

Thank you for posting the stats on Zoubek' first blue/white game. As I was reading through all of the posts and seeing all the hype about Plumlee all I could think about is how dominant Zoubek was in that scrimmage. One intra squad game is not a whole lot on which to base a player's game. I am optimistic that Plumlee will be able to compete and contribute this year (more so based on posts by Jumbo than the blue/white game) but I fully expect that Zoubek and Thomas will get their minutes and will be improved over last year. Let's let them play a few more games before setting expectations too high or too low.

yancem
10-19-2008, 07:59 PM
If Zoubek gets owned by UNC, are we going to come out and say "well, it's not really fair, he would have done better if he had Hansbrough on his team?"

I don't put too much stock into these games, and I'm not throwing Z under the bus, but this line of reasoning seems ridiculous to the nth degree.

Your reasoning is faulty. The problem for Zobek wasn't the competition he was playing against. It was the players he was playing with. A center has to be given the ball when he has position in the lane. If the pg can't doesn't get him the ball, he'll never be able to score. Also, if there aren't quality outside shooters or an decent second post, then opposing teams can jam the lane making getting the ball to the center much more difficult. By playing with Singler, Henderson and Scheyer, Zoubek would be given a better opportunity to get involved in the offense.

ACCBBallFan
10-19-2008, 09:35 PM
I won'lt go into all the details that I posted on Wayne's site, but thanks to the link Bob Green provided to stats on GoDuke.com, and the Gametracker stats for first half on same site, I calculated the results for Game 2 and ranked each players' performance twice.

One could argue whether it makes sense to weight each category equally (FG%, 3 Pt %,, FT%, and each of these on a per 40 minute basis: Rebounds, Points, A:T, Blocks and Steals) and could also argue intangibles, but the results were:

01 Gerald White1 48
02 Nolan Blue2 47
03 Kyle White1 46
04 Jon White1 36
05 Gerald White2 33
06 Marty Blue2 29
07 Miles White1 23
08 Brian Blue1 21
09 Greg Blue1 20
10 Nolan White1 17
10 Dave Blue2 17
12 Kyle White2 16
12 Dave White1 16
14 Lance Blue1 15
14 Jordan White2 15
16 Brian Blue2 12
17 Jon White2 11
18 Greg White2 10
19 Elliott Blue1 9
20 Elliott White2 5
21 Marty Blue1 3
21 Miles Blue2 3
23 Steve Blue1 0
23 Jordan Blue1 0
23 Olek White2 0
23 Steve Blue2 0
23 Lance White2 0
23 Olek Blue1 0

The resultant lineups and subs would be:

PG: Nolan(2) /Greg(9 )/Nolan(10) /Greg(18)
SG: Jon(4) /Marty(6) /Jon(17) /Elliott(20)
WF: Gerald (1) /Gerald(5) /Elliott(19) /Marty (21)
PF: Kyle(3) /Dave(10) /Kyle(12) /Lance(14)
C: Brian(8) /Miles(7) /Dave(12) /Brian(16) /Miles(21)

Anomaly Jordan (14) but encouraging if an emergency arises

again confirming that starting lineup since these 5 show up twice each (close call on Brian/Miles), other than possibly switching Nolan/Greg who each show up twice if Jordan Davidson anomaly is excluded.

Lance did nothing well in the second game paired with Singler vs. Zoubek, Plumlee and McClure perhaps Duke's 3 best post defenders which validates that these two post players Zoubek and Plumlee are key to Duke's success.

The team with Singler, Henderson and Scheyer should never lose to the Blue team, and is reminiscent of early NCAA small ball exits with Lance in post and Greg at PG.

Duke is more than OK with one or the other paired with Kyle-G-Jon but not both Greg-Lance concurrently.

I excluded the personal fouls per minute category in this analysis since 15 min is too small a sample and category may not even make sense anyway.

If one were to sum the two placement scores (low is good) for each Duke player, the results are pretty close to the composites I had analyzed earleir in that thread on Wayne's site, which were limited to the stats on GoDuke.com Bob Gren provided earleir in this thread, not the by game analysis I did:

Rating FG% 3% FT% TR PF TP A:T Blk Stl Min

Gerald 71 10 7 10 10 10 09 04 0 01 10
Nolan- 56 06 5 06 06 01 07 10 1 07 07
Kyle-- 51 09 3 03 09 02 08 05 0 04 08
Brian- 42 05 0 09 05 06 06 07 4 00 00
Dave- 38 04 0 00 07 09 00 06 2 06 04
Jon--- 37 01 2 00 04 05 05 08 0 03 09
Marty- 36 07 6 07 03 00 10 00 0 00 03
Greg-- 34 00 2 03 02 08 04 03 0 06 06
Miles-- 25 08 0 00 08 00 03 01 3 00 02
Lance- 23 00 0 05 02 04 02 03 0 02 05
Jordan 20 00 0 04 00 07 00 09 0 00 00
Elliott- 18 03 4 08 00 00 01 01 0 00 01
Olek-- 06 03 0 00 00 03
Steve- 00

Sum of the placements earlier in this thread

Gerald - 6
Nolan - 12
Kyle - 15
Jon - 21
Dave - 22
Brian - 24
Greg - 27
Marty - 27
Miles - 28
Lance - 37
Elliott - 39
Olek - 46

and the same depth chart results, with Lance vying with Dave for fourth Tall to be backup PF/ third string C and Elliott needing to compete with Marty for 5th guard in 3 guard set.

As pointed out in this thread, Lance will not often go only 1-8 and I would add that Kyle/Greg will rarely only shoot 50% on FTs with a larger sample over the course of the season.

Edouble
10-19-2008, 10:30 PM
So does anyone think Lance would play better backing up Singler and being a faceup player than than a low post player? He doesn't look comfortable in the low post, and he doesn't seem to have the handles or the shot to play at the high post or perimeter. I'm wondering, where is his natural position?

Power Forward.

RainingThrees
10-19-2008, 10:54 PM
Hasn't that been where he has been playing/struggling? What did he play in high school where he earned that high rating?

ACCBBallFan
10-20-2008, 12:44 AM
So does anyone think Lance would play better backing up Singler and being a faceup player than than a low post player? He doesn't look comfortable in the low post, and he doesn't seem to have the handles or the shot to play at the high post or perimeter. I'm wondering, where is his natural position?

That's exactly what I am thinking if Lance can beat Dave out for that backup to Kyle.

Now if Zoubs and Milkes are in foul trouble, then I see McClure as the better at positioning and rebounding as post defender which would free up the backup PF for Lance.

Realistically only Zoubek and Plumlee have the size needed to play center leaving a battle between Dave and Lance for both their backup and Kyle's backup.

You saw what happened in second B/W with Lance and Paulus teaming with Duke's best three Kyle-G-Jon and getting beaten rather handily by quick guards Nolan and Marty and better post defenders Zoubek, Plumlee and McClure.

Some call it tired legs if they want. Sounds like what Duke calls it every time this undersized and slow guard lineup gets beaten in NCAAs. Time to deploy Nolan, Zoubek and Miles more to change the mix.

zingit
10-20-2008, 01:52 AM
As for Paulus, do not be encouraged by him getting past Nolan. Greg is such a good shooter, and such a poor driver, that getting arround the first guy will be easy. Opponents guarding Paulus are scared of GP killing them from deep, not from penetrating. His defender will be within a couple inches, face guarding GP, to prevent him from getting off a shot. If Paulus gets arround his defender, what can he really do?

Um, he could pass? That's what point guards tend to do, and Greg does a decent job of it. Like I said before, he did not have a good game Saturday as far as directing the offense goes, but he normally does a pretty good job of finding the open man.


If GP's outside shooting gets shut down, or even severly restricted, he has almost no value on the court. It is harsh, but that's the way it is. He is a fantastic shooter, and that will merit him many quality minutes. But that is all he brings to the table.

Shooting is ALL Paulus brings to the table? Now that's clearly an exaggeration. How about leading the team in assists the past two seasons, and having a 2:1 assist/turnover ratio last year? (The only other player who matched--exceeded, actually--his A/TO last year was Scheyer. No one else came close.) Also, according to GoDuke (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22727&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=186183&Q_SEASON=2008), his 94 career steals, including 50 last year, are tops among Duke returnees. And how about his clutch plays in games against Davidson and NC State and probably a few others that I'm forgetting?


We all love grit, guttiness, and effort. But unless those attributes translate to quantifiable contributions, the really don't mean much.

That's the thing, though--they are hard to quantify. Steals and clutch plays are quantifiable, but there are a number of hustle plays that a player can make that might not show up in the stats. A player's leadership is also something that fans can't really see because we're not in their huddles and locker rooms, but it definitely matters. Otherwise, why would they even bother having captains? Why would any coach in the league even talk about these traits, or leadership, or experience?

If you don't think Paulus is very good, fine--you're certainly not alone. If you don't think he should be starting, or have a starter's minutes, fine--Coach K might even end up agreeing with you. Either way is fine with me as long as it's what's best for the team, although as you can see, I like Greg and would like to see him do well. But let's not exaggerate Paulus's weaknesses and totally dismiss his strengths.

whereinthehellami
10-20-2008, 08:36 AM
That's the thing, though--they are hard to quantify. Steals and clutch plays are quantifiable, but there are a number of hustle plays that a player can make that might not show up in the stats. A player's leadership is also something that fans can't really see because we're not in their huddles and locker rooms, but it definitely matters. Otherwise, why would they even bother having captains? Why would any coach in the league even talk about these traits, or leadership, or experience?

If you don't think Paulus is very good, fine--you're certainly not alone. If you don't think he should be starting, or have a starter's minutes, fine--Coach K might even end up agreeing with you. Either way is fine with me as long as it's what's best for the team, although as you can see, I like Greg and would like to see him do well. But let's not exaggerate Paulus's weaknesses and totally dismiss his strengths.

Excellent point. Greg is a warrior and a senior. He is an excellent communicator and an extension of the coach on the floor. While Henderson, Singler, Scheyer, and Smith are more talented they seem to be more of the quiet leader type. Greg is the kind of guy that leads by hustle, energy, and scrappiness. I'de be very suprised if he doesn't start.

MChambers
10-20-2008, 09:51 AM
Excellent point. Greg is a warrior and a senior. He is an excellent communicator and an extension of the coach on the floor. While Henderson, Singler, Scheyer, and Smith are more talented they seem to be more of the quiet leader type. Greg is the kind of guy that leads by hustle, energy, and scrappiness. I'de be very suprised if he doesn't start.

While I agree that Paulus probably is a very good leader and has the respect of his teammates, I'd like to suggest another reason for Smith to start and Paulus come off the bench. With Paulus, Scheyer, and Henderson starting, our two quickest perimeter players would be on the bench. Although I think that Henderson and Scheyer are very good defenders, I don't think they match up well with very quick players. (Last year, Demarcus could cover the other team's quickest perimeter player at the beginning of the game.)

When Paulus is in the game, I'd like to see Smith or Williams also be in the game, and let them apply ball pressure to the opposition point guard.

The Gordog
10-20-2008, 11:15 AM
Then if that's who you had supposed were our 6 best guys, maybe it's time to re-examine that supposition.

To me, the main difference in the second game was defense: Nolan Smith switched teams, and McClure played like a beast in the second game. Those two are a defensive juggernaut that even our best three players had difficulty overcoming.

I've been wading through this thread today (finally) and was wondering if anyone was going to mention Dave's D. G could not get in the lan against Dave nor could he find good passing angles. Along with Nolan they produced a lot of turnovers.

SMO
10-20-2008, 11:35 AM
So does anyone think Lance would play better backing up Singler and being a faceup player than than a low post player? He doesn't look comfortable in the low post, and he doesn't seem to have the handles or the shot to play at the high post or perimeter. I'm wondering, where is his natural position?

There used to be a video somewhere out on "the internets" of Lance in high school knocking down jumpers from mid to long range. I can't find the video but I do think he is more of a face-up player with outside game.

dukeENG2003
10-20-2008, 03:18 PM
Who was K talking to/recruiting behind and to his right? In the USA-NBA warm-up jacket? The guy looked HUGE.

Not sure if I saw this question answered. . .

I believe it was Josh Hairston, at least one grad student asked him for an autograph, and All I could read was "Josh H. . .". Looked like him to me also.

ACCBBallFan
10-20-2008, 04:00 PM
I've been wading through this thread today (finally) and was wondering if anyone was going to mention Dave's D. G could not get in the lan against Dave nor could he find good passing angles. Along with Nolan they produced a lot of turnovers.
You are right Gordog. Big difference between the 16 Gerald scored primarily on Elliott and the 7 vis a vis Dave McClure. Some of that tme Marty may have neen guarding G, not sure.

McClure and Scheyer are also two of Duke's best defensive rebounders, but unfortunately Dave offers near zero on Offense. So good guy to have in the game when trying to hold onto a lead but playing Dave is more akin to trying no to lose than trying to win.

I think Dave would be Duke's third best post defender behind Zoubek and Miles but ahead of Lance given that the goal is to not have to play Kyle there if it can be avoided. Dave jsut plays his position smarter.

May be plenty of PT there too since Miles racked up 5 fouls in 22 min combined halves of play and Zoubek will need frequent R&R. Combined they may play less mnutes than Singler's 30 or more on average.

So better for Dave to back them up and do double duty as an on the ball defender specialist when needed and for Lance to play his natural position back up Kyle, since he is better sized to be a 4.

Richard Berg
10-20-2008, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by COYS View Post
Well, it sounds like there weren't very many missed shots for Zoubs to rebound in the first game.

There were plenty of missed shots. I even remember mentioning out loud that it was scary that Zoubek was one of 2 people on the floor (at the time) with 0 rebounds.
No there weren't. White shot 20-25 in the first game.

CameronBornAndBred
10-20-2008, 04:35 PM
Not sure if I saw this question answered. . .

I believe it was Josh Hairston, at least one grad student asked him for an autograph, and All I could read was "Josh H. . .". Looked like him to me also.

Thanks..been bugging me ever since the game. I didn't know of any official visits that day.

Kedsy
10-20-2008, 05:14 PM
No there weren't. White shot 20-25 in the first game.

Perhaps the discrepancy in viewpoints can be reconciled by considering the possibility that offensive rebounding opportunities may have been available for the Blue center?

COYS
10-20-2008, 06:59 PM
Perhaps the discrepancy in viewpoints can be reconciled by considering the possibility that offensive rebounding opportunities may have been available for the Blue center?

Yes, that's definitely true. I didn't intend my original post to mean anything except that the significance of the rebound stats is diminished at least a little bit when the opposition shoots 80%. Anyone who sits out as long as Zoubs has is bound to be a little rusty. Hopefully fewer of those offensive boards will get away from him further down the line. His rebound rate has been consistently good during his first two years, and I would imagine that once he gets his legs back under him, he'll at least be as good as he has been in the past.

Edouble
10-20-2008, 10:45 PM
McClure and Scheyer are also two of Duke's best defensive rebounders, but unfortunately Dave offers near zero on Offense.

He's been known to hit a game winner now and then. ;)

BlueintheFace
10-20-2008, 11:13 PM
He's been known to hit a game winner now and then. ;)

well... mostly "then", but if I could get a "now" that would be REALLY awesome!!