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TwoDukeTattoos
10-14-2008, 01:20 PM
I called into the DG show last night on 850 The Buzz asking if he had any insight regarding UT and Cutcliffe. He did indicate, if I'm not mistaken, that Cutcliffe will be a top candidate, but, other than that he didn't have any insight to offer. DG did say, however, that Cutcliffe is scheduled to appear on his show today and he will ask Cut point blank if he would be interested in the UT job. I am not sure what time Cut is slotted to appear, so if anyone hears the interview, please let us know!

6th Man
10-14-2008, 01:38 PM
Here's my plea to Coach Cut......he has spoken a lot this year about how his dad taught him to always leave a place better off than he found it. That is also what he is stressing to his players, especially seniors this year. The seniors are doing that(thank you seniors), but as a whole if Coach Cut left, Duke would not be better off. When I envision Coach Cut leaving, he will leave behind a program that is going to bowl games. A program that another coach can come into and not have to try and build a program. One that has established itself for recruits, fans, and winning ball games. I think he can do just that. It's going to take some time and the improved facilities we keep hearing about.

So come on Coach. Stay and make sure when you do leave, it is indeed much better off than you found it!

Diddy
10-14-2008, 02:05 PM
Cutcliff has already proven one thing. He has proven that Duke is a legitimate team where a coach can win games.

I never thought he would be here for long. He is too good of an offensive coach to stick at Duke, especially so late in his career. The unlimited budgets and power at a SEC, Big 12, or even Pac-10 team are too enticing to turn your back on. Also, since I also follow UT football, I figured that Fat Boy wasn't long for that job without Cutcliff.

You know what, I don't think Duke will miss Cutcliff. He has shown what winning a few games at Duke can do. I think Duke will now be a serious destination for an up and comming, lower tier coach, or high quality assistant coach.

Unlike many of you, I have never harbored dreams of finding another K, ie someone who will stick arround forever. Until Duke seriously upgrades the facilities, keeping a rising star coach will be too dificult. But Cut is a special case. He has proven, long before Duke, that he is an offensive guru, and a solid to good head coach. Duke's next guy will be someone the football world has heard of, and he will be on his way up. He will have to stay longer to prove himself, and he will. The next guy could stay for 4-5 years, and when he leaves that coach will leave behind a legacy of winning for another HC, possibly even a Duke grad who is an assistant.

Let's face it. Prior to this year Duke Football was a complete joke. Cut has proven that Duke does not have to be a joke. He has enhanced us tremendously. Taking over, and being successfull at a Virginia, or Ole Miss, or Ball State is nice, and will get you a better job. But you have to win 8-10 games at those schools. Come coach at Duke, win 6-8 games and a crown jewel of college football will come calling. Duke is situated in a geographic region rich with talent, ie recruiting connections to take with you to better schools. And Duke will be going after coaches' favorites, the kids who aren't superstars but are smart, good kids. The coach at a Charlotte power doesn't care who takes the non-scholarly superstar, but he will always remember who offered for one of his favorite brainiacs.

Duke can be one of the Stepping Stone programs, until we can produce a homegrown, alumnus coach who will stick for a couple of decades. Cut has shown that it can be done, so good luck to him.

Plus, we can use his buyout money for the next guy's salary package.

Highlander
10-14-2008, 02:29 PM
You guys are talking about him as if he is already gone, which is far from the case. He hasn't even coached one half of one season yet. I, for one, would be very surprised and disappointed if Cutcliffe left Duke this year, especially considering how much Duke has invested in him and his vision. Doing so would be catastrophic to our program, in that it would reinforce the stereotype that our program is not worth the time of a top tier coach.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-14-2008, 03:34 PM
You know what, I don't think Duke will miss Cutcliff. He has shown what winning a few games at Duke can do. I think Duke will now be a serious destination for an up and comming, lower tier coach, or high quality assistant coach.

Unlike many of you, I have never harbored dreams of finding another K, ie someone who will stick arround forever. Until Duke seriously upgrades the facilities, keeping a rising star coach will be too dificult. But Cut is a special case. He has proven, long before Duke, that he is an offensive guru, and a solid to good head coach. Duke's next guy will be someone the football world has heard of, and he will be on his way up. He will have to stay longer to prove himself, and he will. The next guy could stay for 4-5 years, and when he leaves that coach will leave behind a legacy of winning for another HC, possibly even a Duke grad who is an assistant.

No one would disagree with the statement that we are better off with Cut. But if he left right away, that would be a horrible blow to the program. All those big recruits who have verballed to come play for Cut... probably gone. This program has several years to go before it even has a chance to stand on its own. Right now, Cut is the program. If he went right back to UT it might look suspiciously as if he had abandoned them in the hopes of a collapse and immediate return as the savior. That wouldn't look good to anyone except maybe UT fans.

jimsumner
10-14-2008, 04:34 PM
For a man with one foot out the door, Cutcliffe sure does spend a lot of time talking about next year and the year after that and the year after that.

DeepBlue70
10-14-2008, 07:57 PM
Some guys still value character built on loyalty. Not everyone takes the money and runs. Not everyone is lured by the glamour of a name. Half a season is way too early for a guy of Cut's character to leave and be able to live with himself. No way he goes

SilkyJ
10-14-2008, 08:45 PM
For a man with one foot out the door, Cutcliffe sure does spend a lot of time talking about next year and the year after that and the year after that.

Really guys. I guess its always better to have low expectations and be pleasantly surprised (under-promise/over-deliver) but I'd be extremely surprised if Cut left after this year. But even more than that, I would be absolutely mystified if he was using Duke as a stepping stone. Duke is not a stepping stone for anyone. We were one of the worst teams in 1-A the last 4 years, and have been at least in the bottom tier the last 10+ years- And that's being generous!

There are plenty of people who would argue that Cutliffe's move from Offensive Coordinator at UT, to HC at Duke is a step down -- certainly there are lot's of people in his position who would not have accepted or been interested in the position. When you are a premier OC and ex-HC (not a "premier" one necessarily, but a very, very successful one) in the best conference in the country, you don't take a step down just to take a step up a year later because quite simply, you don't need to. Duke is way below the types of jobs he could have gotten last year.

That's only the objective/situational part. Add in what I've heard about his character and reputation it would surprise me even further if he came in with the intention of leaving after a year or two.

Now, I will say its possible he could go to UT, but I don't think he had any intention of leaving quickly back when he took the job. For him, UT is kind of like going home. Its not exactly the same, but we wouldn't be talking about "stepping stones" if Coach K suddenly retired and coach dawkins came back. Unexpected circumstances. Coach going home. It happens, but I can't imagine he had the intention of using Duke as a stepping stone.

Jaymf7
10-14-2008, 09:05 PM
I would think that, for a special kind of coach, the challenge of turning a struggling program like Duke into a sustainably successful program is particularly appealing. We all know how high the expectations at UT are. Indeed, I think Fulmer has done a lot for that school and where is he now? How many other high profile coaches have suffered similar fates (different sport, but how are the Yankees doing in the postseason this year?)? For Cutcliffe to go back to UT and save the program from one or two down years is not nearly the same opportunity that he now has to turn a very weak (but newly resource rich) program into a contending program. Here, he can truly leave a legacy. I hope that motivates him. Based on his decision to come in the first place, my guess is that it does.

Devilsfan
10-14-2008, 09:41 PM
I think that Coach Cut is the best football coach Duke has ever gotten and that includes the Ol'Ball Coach and Mr. Wade imo. I love what he has accomplished in such a short period of time. From moving the student section and the band to the home side, to enfocing the parking around Yoh, to getting two Super Bowl QBs on campus, to featuring so many players on his show and in our programs, to starting the clean up of the cess pool called Wallace Wade, to the new unis, to building one of the best damn staffs in the land, to the Devil's Walk (through Cameron on Blue White day I hear), to starting to fill our stadium, to nearly cutting out all stupid mistakes on the field, to returning PRIDE to Duke football, to the "I am DUKE!! cry", to well you get the point.
That's why I root so hard for the Vols and Phillip Fulmer each and every Saturday. Please Vols start winning some games!!!!! We want to keep our coach and his staff in Durham.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-14-2008, 10:08 PM
While I think this sort of discussion is a bit premature, if we're going to have the conversation, let's remember a turning point regarding the Duke job for Coach Cutrcliffe. He asked if he could reassemble his staff from Ole Miss as part of the deal. This is the same staff he refused to "throw under the bus" at Ole Miss. Is he likely to head back to Knoxville after a few months here? Probably not. I think he's got higher principles than that. In a few years? Who knows? We can hope that in a few years we all see him as central to Duke's identity as is Coach K

Diddy
10-14-2008, 10:34 PM
How closely have you people followed Div 1 Football low these many years?

Butch Davis resurrects Miami. Has them on the brink of a national championship. And promptly leaves for the NFL (more $, more prestige, etc)

Nick Saban resurrects MSU. They are close to toppeling mighty UM in the state. And then he promptly leaves for LSU. Which he resurrects into a national title machine. Until he leaves for the NFL, literally in dead of night. When he comes back to college FB, he comes back to the same conference, the same division, to one of LSU's most hated long term rivals, Alabama.

Rich Rodriquez goes to his ALMA freaking MATER, and resurrects the program from just slightlly better than Duke. He turns WVU into a perenial BCS contender. He signs a HUGE buyout clause, builds a nice house, and swears eternal fealty. Until Michigan comes calling.

Do you think Duke is so amazing that we are immune from the reality of college football? I mean, I can see why Cut would want to stay at a school whose academic requirements preclude most of the top players in the sport, a school where 70% attendance is a cause for celebration, and a school whose facilities are in worse shape than a lot of top high schools, and are certainly among the absolute worst in College football, a school in a conference where FB is the poor cousine of basketball.

Who in (insert your Diety here)'s name would want to go to a school in a football crazy conference, a school that is allergic to serious academic requirements, a school were a bad team gets 100,000 fans for a home game, a school with fantastic, state of the art facilities? Why would he want to go back to the city where all of his wife's and children's friends still live? Who really wants that kind of happiness?

What about Duke is so amazing that a coach wouldn't leave? How many of you on this board would not leave for a more prestigious job that paid significantly more money?

Or, to put it another way:

Suppose, over the next 5 or so years, Johnny Dawkins turns Stanford into a serious contender on the national stage. If, over that same 5 or so years, Coach K were to decide to call it a career, how many here fully expect Dawkins to drop Stanford like its hot and hie on back to Durham? If you expect Dawkins to come back, then don't be surprised if someone else does it to us.

As for Duke not being a stepping stone: What is more impressive? Winning 8-10 games at a state school in a BCS conference, or even a mid major, or winning 4-7 games at Duke? A big time school would look at the 4-7 game winner at Duke and think "Gee, if he can do it at a joke program like Duke, what can he do here at Mammoth U with all our focus, money, facilities, and academic non chalance."

What is more impressive in your mind?

OZZIE4DUKE
10-14-2008, 10:49 PM
How closely have you people followed Div 1 Football low these many years?


There is no way on God's green Earth that a coach will turn down $8 millions a year to coach the LA Lakers. What kind of fool would the man have to be to turn down that kind of money - a $6 million a year raise? If he's that crazy why would we still want him at Duke? NO ONE turns down that kind of money.

Well, we all know that Coach K DID turn down the Lakers. We didn't run him out of town on a rail for doing it, either. Coach Cut is a man of the same integrity as Coach K. He's only in his first year here and not his 20+ (at the time of the Lakers thing), so he doesn't have the deep roots here, but they are firmly in the ground and getting deeper every day. He's getting the love from the team, the administration and the fans.

Diddy, I think your logic and arguments are valid for most people and most institutions, but not for Duke and not for Coach Cutcliffe. As the ads say "We are DUKE!"

JG Nothing
10-14-2008, 11:07 PM
I seriously doubt Tennessee wants a guy fired from Ole Miss. Also, Cutcliffe has a reputation (warranted or not) among some in the SEC for not being able to recruit at an elite level.
Judging by the VolNation bulletin board most of the fans sure don't want to see Cutcliffe hired as the Vols head coach.
http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols/55506-fire-fulmer-hire-cutcliffe.html
I think Cutcliffe will be courted in the future but not by Tennessee. If they fire Fulmer, they will want a fresh start and a more exciting name. Regardless, I am thrilled with what Cutcliffe has done at Duke and very glad he is our coach. :)

formerdukeathlete
10-15-2008, 05:51 AM
I seriously doubt Tennessee wants a guy fired from Ole Miss. Also, Cutcliffe has a reputation (warranted or not) among some in the SEC for not being able to recruit at an elite level.
Judging by the VolNation bulletin board most of the fans sure don't want to see Cutcliffe hired as the Vols head coach.
http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols/55506-fire-fulmer-hire-cutcliffe.html
I think Cutcliffe will be courted in the future but not by Tennessee. If they fire Fulmer, they will want a fresh start and a more exciting name. Regardless, I am thrilled with what Cutcliffe has done at Duke and very glad he is our coach. :)

Read somewhere that Cut's contract with Duke does not contain a buyout. Jim Sumner or someone closer to the pulse may know more about this.

On the recruiting front, yes, we landed Renfree, the highest rated qb recruit for Duke since who, Ben Bennett? And, Desmond Scott. However, Roof's couple first full recruiting classes were about as strong or stronger than Cut's first full class. The 2009 class has a number of kids who have had no other BCS offers. Jim Harbaugh at Stanford (paid about 500k a year less than Cut) is ripping it out of the frame recruiting wise - Stanford's 09 class currently is ranked about 15th.

Diddy makes a number of points which get out in front of this issue, kind of contrarian to the perhaps commonly held view that Cut will not leave early and or that he will retire at Duke. For the right offer, I think Cut would leave. He is paid pretty well at Duke and has his staff in place. I think it would have to be a pretty attractive situation, with an all-clear on his health. Another factor - our won - loss record this season. A couple more GA tech game like performances and that pretty attractive situation is less likely to be offered.

arnie
10-15-2008, 07:55 AM
When Butch Davis takes the UT job at the end of this year, that will take care of most of my football concerns!

budwom
10-15-2008, 08:00 AM
First of all, Coachspeak 101 indicates that the ONLY possible answer Cutcliffe could give regarding the possibility of taking the UT job is that Fullmer is the coach at Tennessee, period. He's not going to discuss hypotheticals.

I also think there are strong possibilities that 1) UT would not offer the job to Cutcliffe, and 2) he might not take the job, especially this early in his tenure at Duke. Sure, the man has to do what's best for him, but Duke did give him another crack at head coaching, and is paying him somewhere around $2 million per year. I'd bet he'll be around for at least a few more years, and possibly quite a bit longer. I hope so.

JasonEvans
10-15-2008, 11:04 AM
People I know who follow the Tennessee program say there is almost no chance at all that they would hire Cut if they got rid of Fulmer.

The consensus seems to be that -- barring a total collapse this season -- Fulmer will be given another year to turn it around. And, if they do let him go, they are going to look for a younger, hotter name than Cut. While it is true that Cut was OC at Tennessee and did a nice job in that role, it is not like things were fabulous under his stewardship of the Tennessee offense the past couple years. It is not like everyone looked at Tennessee and said, "their strategy is to outscore you because their defense sucks."

--Jason "Cut is here and this will be his home for a while, I strongly suspect" Evans

Devilsfan
10-15-2008, 01:13 PM
Did Joe Alliva hire Cut?

jafarr1
10-15-2008, 01:44 PM
On the recruiting front, yes, we landed Renfree, the highest rated qb recruit for Duke since who, Ben Bennett? And, Desmond Scott. However, Roof's couple first full recruiting classes were about as strong or stronger than Cut's first full class. The 2009 class has a number of kids who have had no other BCS offers. Jim Harbaugh at Stanford (paid about 500k a year less than Cut) is ripping it out of the frame recruiting wise - Stanford's 09 class currently is ranked about 15th.


Stanford beat USC last year. You'd better believe that has some impact on Harbaugh's ability to land some bigger names, at least in the current class.

I'd be interested to know how you concluded that Roof's classes were rated above Cutcliffe's. Comparing 2005 (the Oghobaase class) to 2009 using Rivals, Duke has one more 4-star players, three more 3-star players, and better-regarded players at the bottom of the class. ESPN, similarly, has Duke's 2009 class rated above its 2005 class - and there's still room for Duke to land a couple more highly regarded players. (I'll admit I didn't check Scout for comparison, but Scout tends to be fairly hit-and-miss with football.)

You also criticize Cutcliffe for taking players with no other BCS offers. Roof did that quite a bit as well, so I'm not sure what your point is.

One true positive that Cutcliffe has changed is he has re-opened lines of communication with NC (and surrounding states) high school coaches, something Roof let fall apart. That will pay longer term dividends, both in increasing the local fan base and giving us a better shot with local players whose families want them staying close to home - and who are easier to visit and evaluate.

Is recruiting light years ahead of Roof's best classes under Cutcliffe? According to the ratings, no. But his first full class, on paper, appears to be stronger than Roof's best class, he's building a local recruiting network, he's bringing in more speed than Roof ever did, and he's bringing in some impact players.

I'm no Cutcliffe apologist, but I've seen little to dislike about his recruiting to date. Right now, I'm far more worried about whether we'll put a couple more W's up this season, as that would really help to open up recruiting.

jafarr1
10-15-2008, 01:45 PM
Did Joe Alliva hire Cut?

Yes, but possibly with an asterisk. From what I've heard, he was heading a different direction, and others helped push him towards Cutcliffe.

Indoor66
10-15-2008, 02:39 PM
Yes, but possibly with an asterisk. From what I've heard, he was heading a different direction, and others helped push him towards Cutcliffe.

IMO, if he gets the bulk of the blame for the prior hires, he gets the bulk of the credit for the current hire.

arnie
10-15-2008, 02:54 PM
Stanford beat USC last year. You'd better believe that has some impact on Harbaugh's ability to land some bigger names, at least in the current class.

I'd be interested to know how you concluded that Roof's classes were rated above Cutcliffe's. Comparing 2005 (the Oghobaase class) to 2009 using Rivals, Duke has one more 4-star players, three more 3-star players, and better-regarded players at the bottom of the class. ESPN, similarly, has Duke's 2009 class rated above its 2005 class - and there's still room for Duke to land a couple more highly regarded players. (I'll admit I didn't check Scout for comparison, but Scout tends to be fairly hit-and-miss with football.)

You also criticize Cutcliffe for taking players with no other BCS offers. Roof did that quite a bit as well, so I'm not sure what your point is.

One true positive that Cutcliffe has changed is he has re-opened lines of communication with NC (and surrounding states) high school coaches, something Roof let fall apart. That will pay longer term dividends, both in increasing the local fan base and giving us a better shot with local players whose families want them staying close to home - and who are easier to visit and evaluate.

Is recruiting light years ahead of Roof's best classes under Cutcliffe? According to the ratings, no. But his first full class, on paper, appears to be stronger than Roof's best class, he's building a local recruiting network, he's bringing in more speed than Roof ever did, and he's bringing in some impact players.

I'm no Cutcliffe apologist, but I've seen little to dislike about his recruiting to date. Right now, I'm far more worried about whether we'll put a couple more W's up this season, as that would really help to open up recruiting.

We will probably drop in the final 2009 rankings since most of our recruits have been identified and schools behind us will be getting new commitments. So FDA is probably correct, but I do agree that its great to get NC high school recruits that other BCS schools were after. I think the days of primarily competing with Mars Hill, Richmond and MAC schools for recruits may be over.

footballfan2
10-15-2008, 03:40 PM
i think we need to be patient here. Will Cutcliffe look like a genius if Duke loses all of their games? It can happen. Duke recruiting class will likely end up being a top 45 class. Roof did better than that.

Overall, I think Cutcliffe will stay. If he even interviews I think that's a major slap at Duke.... given he's only been here one year. I find it odd that people keep implying Cutcliffe is old. He's 5-6 younger than Butch Davis.

formerdukeathlete
10-15-2008, 04:01 PM
Is recruiting light years ahead of Roof's best classes under Cutcliffe? According to the ratings, no. But his first full class, on paper, appears to be stronger than Roof's best class, he's building a local recruiting network, he's bringing in more speed than Roof ever did, and he's bringing in some impact players.

I'm no Cutcliffe apologist, but I've seen little to dislike about his recruiting to date. Right now, I'm far more worried about whether we'll put a couple more W's up this season, as that would really help to open up recruiting.

Firstly, I suggested that Roof's first 2 full classes were about as good or better than the 2009 class. On scout, 2009 class, Duke is 30th currently with 25 commits and Ga Tech 36th with 11 commits. Duke has an almost full class (can go beyond 25 by a few if at least that number over 25 enroll early in the spring). While we are 30, we are likely to finish in the high 40s as other teams fill up their classes. In 2005 Duke finished 31 and in 2006 Duke finished at 36 on scout. Rivals is nicer to our current class, yes. It is fairly early in the commitment cycle for the better recruiting schools and Duke will not stay where it is in the rankings, whether scout, rivals or ESPN.

Without boring with all the specifics, I think you will also find our 2009 class is small physically compared to Roof's 2005 and 2006 classes, and that it may have more academic exception admits. By comparison, all of Stanford's commits in the 2009 class are above Duke's thresholds for academic qualification. I am not faulting Cut really in the recruiting. Just, as we discuss what might happen if, lets refer to Roof as an example. Other coaches will be able to recruit here for Football. Cut has been doing a good job. I just think other coaches would be able to do about as well. Roof did in his first 2 years.

RepoMan
10-15-2008, 05:42 PM
Of course, keep in mind that, after Roof's tenure, the recruiting challenges are even greater, given the even more protracted legacy of losing. Also worth noting is that Cut seems to be mining some different areas (e.g., NC) and perhaps is focusing more on speed that Roof, so, regardless of "ranking," recruting is much different. Will Cut's strategy will pay dividends? Time will tell. Last, keep in mind that perhaps the most succesful ACC football school over the last 4 years, Va Tech, regularly has recruiting classes ranked near 20, which just shows that there is a lot more to football recruiting success than "rankings."

FDA: What is the basis for your conclusion that Duke has more "academic exception admits" than Stanford?

CameronBornAndBred
10-15-2008, 06:40 PM
I don't get the show, so did
1. Cutcliffe appear?
2. Get asked the question?
3. If so, what was the answer?

jafarr1
10-15-2008, 10:15 PM
Firstly, I suggested that Roof's first 2 full classes were about as good or better than the 2009 class. On scout, 2009 class, Duke is 30th currently with 25 commits and Ga Tech 36th with 11 commits. Duke has an almost full class (can go beyond 25 by a few if at least that number over 25 enroll early in the spring). While we are 30, we are likely to finish in the high 40s as other teams fill up their classes. In 2005 Duke finished 31 and in 2006 Duke finished at 36 on scout. Rivals is nicer to our current class, yes. It is fairly early in the commitment cycle for the better recruiting schools and Duke will not stay where it is in the rankings, whether scout, rivals or ESPN.

Agreed that they will not stay where they are in class rankings - which is why I ignored them. My comparisons are done strictly on ratings of players. On Rivals, I use their 5.0-6.1 scale and compared player-by-player. Line up the classes side-by-side and 2009 wins out with better players. Same with ESPN.

Like I said, I tend to ignore Scout for football because (a) their strength is basketball, not football, and (b) direct comparisons are tougher because they just use flat star ratings rather than more granular player ratings.


Without boring with all the specifics, I think you will also find our 2009 class is small physically compared to Roof's 2005 and 2006 classes, and that it may have more academic exception admits. By comparison, all of Stanford's commits in the 2009 class are above Duke's thresholds for academic qualification. I am not faulting Cut really in the recruiting. Just, as we discuss what might happen if, lets refer to Roof as an example. Other coaches will be able to recruit here for Football. Cut has been doing a good job. I just think other coaches would be able to do about as well. Roof did in his first 2 years.

2005 may have had larger players, but 2009 has faster players.

You may be correct on the academic side; I don't pretend to know the various players' SAT/ACT scores or GPAs. Again, though, Stanford has the luxury of a marquee win under the current coach for the previous year. Duke has ... no wins the previous year under a different coach. That matters.

I agree that other coaches can recruit at Duke. I was just curious about the statement that Roof's classes were better - I can see "equal", maybe, but realistically they're probably close enough not to really matter.

devilirium
10-15-2008, 10:35 PM
FDA makes a good point about the recruiting classes being about equal. I'll offer a few mild defenses for Cut and his staff:

1) Vince Oghobaase didn't commit to another BCS school and then change his mind. Duke has had a number of kids: Lee Butler, John Drew, Sean Renfree, and yes Desmond Scott who've done that with Cutcliffe. All of these kids obviously have BCS offers. VO was arguably Roof's best recruit. Great kid, who has been hampered by injuries, yet is still productive, and can stay on the field longer due to better coaching and conditioning.

2) Ted (and Carl for that matter) didn't believe that we could recruit NC. Now, GA and TX are rich states for recruiting so I'm not faulting Ted here. Where the rubber meets the road is on player development. Look at the existing players: Tauliili was a pretty good player in the conference. He's arguably first team All-ACC now. Respress, Oglesby, Akinbiyi, etc--are performing well. The O line's performance has been spotty in some ways, and terrific in others (no false starts, offsides, etc). Let's see how the line develops in these next 7 games. Secondary has developed pretty well, and Cut has integrated the young bucks like Butler and Daniels pretty well. Thad has improved mostly--though the numbers don't show it--much more of a dual threat--still 2 to 1 TD/INT ratio. Completion percentage is above last year. Where he has suffered is connecting with the long ball.

This is an area where a coach like Jim Grobe has excelled. Look at his recruiting rankings--until this year where there was a noticeable spike. Grobe's classes were ranked behind Roof's nearly every year--I think that provides an interesting counterargument to Scout and Rivals. Clearly, Grobe has had success recruiting to a system that doesn't translate well with recruiting rankings. And Grobe is a good comparison, because Wake, like BC, are the schools that recruit in a most similar fashion to Duke.

formerdukeathlete
10-16-2008, 06:58 AM
my point - dispair not. Were Cut to leave chances are his replacement will do relatively well in recruiting provided we make some progress on facilities improvements. Stanford is more hampered in recruiting than Duke, which makes Harbaugh's current class even the more impressive. In the 800-900 math verbal range, Duke requires some seriousness of purpose, an interview. Its about 1000 - 1050 at Stanford. The average math verbal SAT on the Stanford team is around 1226. Very, very difficult to get a kid through admissions there with under a 1000.

footballfan2
10-16-2008, 07:45 AM
FDA makes a good point about the recruiting classes being about equal. I'll offer a few mild defenses for Cut and his staff:

1) Vince Oghobaase didn't commit to another BCS school and then change his mind. Duke has had a number of kids: Lee Butler, John Drew, Sean Renfree, and yes Desmond Scott who've done that with Cutcliffe. All of these kids obviously have BCS offers. VO was arguably Roof's best recruit. Great kid, who has been hampered by injuries, yet is still productive, and can stay on the field longer due to better coaching and conditioning.

This is an area where a coach like Jim Grobe has excelled. Look at his recruiting rankings--until this year where there was a noticeable spike. Grobe's classes were ranked behind Roof's nearly every year--I think that provides an interesting counterargument to Scout and Rivals. Clearly, Grobe has had success recruiting to a system that doesn't translate well with recruiting rankings. And Grobe is a good comparison, because Wake, like BC, are the schools that recruit in a most similar fashion to Duke.

I would argue that Thad Lewis has been the most important recruit for Roof. But I agree, getting VO was a huge get. And while I also agree that Wake has "defied" the recruiting rankings, I have to make two points that I think are very valid: 1) Wake's success is not the norm. There is a clear correlation between recruiting classes and BCS success and 2) I honestly believe Wake's "success" is due to the overall power vacuum in the ACC. If FSU, Virginia Tech, Miami, and Clemson where playing at their "expected" level Wake Forest would be an upper mid tier ACC team at best.

CameronBornAndBred
10-16-2008, 07:56 AM
This is from an article in the N&O about Cutcliffe's job at Duke (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/is-cutcliffe-crazy-for-taking-the-duke-job), and other opportunities.

"I've already had some coaching friends call me crazy," Cutcliffe said Wednesday during the ACC coaches' teleconference. "I've already had some people call me about [NFL] coordinator jobs. But I say, 'Listen, I am right where I need to be and I'm thrilled to be here."

Sounds good to me.

footballfan2
10-16-2008, 08:08 AM
This is from an article in the N&O about Cutcliffe's job at Duke (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/is-cutcliffe-crazy-for-taking-the-duke-job), and other opportunities.

"I've already had some coaching friends call me crazy," Cutcliffe said Wednesday during the ACC coaches' teleconference. "I've already had some people call me about [NFL] coordinator jobs. But I say, 'Listen, I am right where I need to be and I'm thrilled to be here."

Sounds good to me.

Yes I agree. I think Cutcliffe knew exactly the type of job he was getting at Duke. Sorry, but you don't accept the head-coaching job at Duke if you "inspire" to be a headcoach of TN one day. Duke has been a head coaching grave-yard for the past two decades.

For whatever reason, i think Cutcliffe likes the Duke environment... and he specifically chose Duke because of it. Why would he then leave?

formerdukeathlete
10-16-2008, 08:28 AM
I would argue that Thad Lewis has been the most important recruit for Roof. But I agree, getting VO was a huge get. And while I also agree that Wake has "defied" the recruiting rankings, I have to make two points that I think are very valid: 1) Wake's success is not the norm. There is a clear correlation between recruiting classes and BCS success and 2) I honestly believe Wake's "success" is due to the overall power vacuum in the ACC. If FSU, Virginia Tech, Miami, and Clemson where playing at their "expected" level Wake Forest would be an upper mid tier ACC team at best.

VO was ranked 7th at his position by scout - 5 star. VO had offers from every school for which he answered the phone - all expected him to start very early on at his position. When VO committed to Duke, the foundation of Yoh and the rafters of Cameron shook.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-16-2008, 08:35 AM
VO was ranked 7th at his position by scout - 5 star. VO had offers from every school for which he answered the phone - all expected him to start very early on at his position. When VO committed to Duke, the foundation of Yoh and the rafters of Cameron shook.
Amen! I remember what a boost it was for Vince to choose Duke.

Inonehand
10-16-2008, 09:48 AM
Amen! I remember what a boost it was for Vince to choose Duke.

Michael Brown, now Tauilili is a Blue Devil as well. Earlier there was speculation of no buyout clause in the Cutcliffe contract. That is the sad fact, so I'm told. Regardless, I can't see Cutcliffe leaving after one year...wins or no wins. However, the administration needs to come through on facility promises.

MulletMan
10-16-2008, 10:00 AM
Stanford is more hampered in recruiting than Duke, which makes Harbaugh's current class even the more impressive. In the 800-900 math verbal range, Duke requires some seriousness of purpose, an interview. Its about 1000 - 1050 at Stanford. The average math verbal SAT on the Stanford team is around 1226. Very, very difficult to get a kid through admissions there with under a 1000.

I would LOVE for you to provide a source for these "data". PLEASE. Just once... a link... a PDF of a chart that someone made... heck, a scan of some notes scrawled on a cocktail napkin... ANYTHING!

Look at me... I can randomly type numbers too:

1200

817

9

23,475

I realize that you have a long standing love-affair with Stanford, but really, the assertions you make are often baseless, and frankly, appear to be made up.

footballfan2
10-16-2008, 11:25 AM
VO was ranked 7th at his position by scout - 5 star. VO had offers from every school for which he answered the phone - all expected him to start very early on at his position. When VO committed to Duke, the foundation of Yoh and the rafters of Cameron shook.

So? How does this make him more valuable to the team than Thad Lewis???

SilkyJ
10-16-2008, 11:38 AM
I would LOVE for you to provide a source for these "data". PLEASE. Just once... a link... a PDF of a chart that someone made... heck, a scan of some notes scrawled on a cocktail napkin... ANYTHING!

Look at me... I can randomly type numbers too:

1200

817

9

23,475

I realize that you have a long standing love-affair with Stanford, but really, the assertions you make are often baseless, and frankly, appear to be made up.

It is considered common knowledge that Stanford's admission standards for sports are higher than Duke's, higher than anyone's outside of the Ivy League. Not a lot higher, but certainly a bit higher. I am suprised someone as knowledgeable about college sports as you does not know this.

Here's an article discussing how difficult their standards are, though its doesn't necessarily compare them to Duke's or give specific SAT #'s:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/06/03/SPGRQQ6G8V1.DTL

Wait, Found one with some direct comps:

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2008/04/25/the-stanford-coaching-search-will-it-be-dawkins-oliver-or-reveno-or-is-there-someone-else/

MulletMan
10-16-2008, 11:50 AM
It is considered common knowledge that Stanford's admission standards for sports are higher than Duke's, higher than anyone's outside of the Ivy League. Not a lot higher, but certainly a bit higher. I am suprised someone as knowledgeable about college sports as you does not know this.

Here's an article discussing how difficult their standards are, though its doesn't necessarily compare them to Duke's or give specific SAT #'s:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/06/03/SPGRQQ6G8V1.DTL

Wait, Found one with some direct comps:

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2008/04/25/the-stanford-coaching-search-will-it-be-dawkins-oliver-or-reveno-or-is-there-someone-else/

Silky, I appreciate you taking the time to find those articles*. Sincerely. However, neither of those pieces, nor anything else that I could find gave a specific score for Duke or Stanford's football team. FDA is free to make a point, but I'm sorry, randomly spouting off statistics, without ever, and I do mean EVER, giving a source is kind of silly and certainley undermines the credibility of the arguement.

*The scores listed in the blog are for Men's basketball and the Stanford avg. of 1123 is 100 points lower than what FDA says the avg for the Football team is.

Scorp4me
10-16-2008, 12:00 PM
I wasn't going to respond, but that was a page ago and we have our usual suspects tearing at the program, so... I'd be shocked if Cut left and that seems to be the general concensus. He came here with a purpose. And it wasn't just to get Duke back on track it was to validate the staff he has reassembled.

Now Roof did ok and he got a few great gets. But I'd discount anyone who is trying to argue that Roof is a better recruiter than Cut. Based on past evidence that just doesn't seem to be the case. Cut seems to be doing two things specifically. Recruiting from NC which is a wonderful idea and bringing in faster athletes (thank the Gods!).

But I suppose if you have an axe to grind and want to grind it now is the time to do it before such arguments seem irrelevant.

formerdukeathlete
10-16-2008, 12:09 PM
I would LOVE for you to provide a source for these "data". PLEASE. Just once... a link... a PDF of a chart that someone made... heck, a scan of some notes scrawled on a cocktail napkin... ANYTHING!

Look at me... I can randomly type numbers too:

1200

817

9

23,475

I realize that you have a long standing love-affair with Stanford, but really, the assertions you make are often baseless, and frankly, appear to be made up.

There is a guy who occassionally posts here, The Train, who knows guys in the Stanford Football office. Maybe he will chime in.

The 1226 average has been posted here, on this forum, by another poster. The Train is very knowledgable about Stanford's requirements, and he can rattle off names of recruits who tried for Stanford, Duke also went after, made it there, or did not clear admissions. Another poster whose son was recruited by Stanford, Cal, Harvard and who is now a freshman on the Cal Football team also discussed these targets / averages.

UH over on TDD posted the spectrum of SAT scores for the Duke Football team. 800 appeared to be an absolute cut off, but a fair number of players - 5 - I recall, were between 800 and 900. Anyone under 900 gets interviewed to be evaluated for seriousness of purpose. UH confirmed that we did this for TL, but the admissions office declined or decided against making the effort for Armando Allen the next year.

Since this is a basketball site, you may recall or have heard that after Eugene Banks committed to Duke who was in this range, but a top 25% class standing guy, Albert King wanted to come to Duke. He came down for a visit. I remember Mike G. letting me know that the admission office declined to offer Albert King admission. Think what that team would have been like.

In 1997, the last year the NCAA released Football team SAT averages, Stanford's was top at a bit over 1100. Duke's was third or fourth. Since then, Duke dropped average team targets, and, therefore, how many kids we could take with x SAT score. Since then Stanford has increased their team academic requirements, and there is stuff on line about this. In the Brodie, early Nan days, if Duke took a kid with 950, we then might grab a kid with high 1100s. Now, meeting whatever the miniumum with some provisions for stretch admits is all that is required.

The Ivy League has an interesting formula for Football. Each school is allowed 30 preferred admits for Football. Only one or 2 may be at the Ivy League min., a few more between 2.5 and 2 standard deviations of the student body, some more between 2 and 1.5, even more between 1.5 and 1 and no limit within 1 standard deviation. While not that onerous, this is something like what Spurrier contended with while at Duke.

SilkyJ
10-16-2008, 12:55 PM
Silky, I appreciate you taking the time to find those articles*. Sincerely. However, neither of those pieces, nor anything else that I could find gave a specific score for Duke or Stanford's football team. FDA is free to make a point, but I'm sorry, randomly spouting off statistics, without ever, and I do mean EVER, giving a source is kind of silly and certainley undermines the credibility of the arguement.

*The scores listed in the blog are for Men's basketball and the Stanford avg. of 1123 is 100 points lower than what FDA says the avg for the Football team is.

I too am a stickler for links/articles/facts etc, hence my post. And yes, those are for the basketball team, but certainly those articles still provide evidence that generally speaking stanford's admission standards are higher than Duke's, which are by no means shabby.

(and for the record, I am not criticizing your condemning of FDA's spouting off numbers. that is valid, and irresponsible on his part.)

formerdukeathlete
10-16-2008, 02:36 PM
I too am a stickler for links/articles/facts etc, hence my post. And yes, those are for the basketball team, but certainly those articles still provide evidence that generally speaking stanford's admission standards are higher than Duke's, which are by no means shabby.

(and for the record, I am not criticizing your condemning of FDA's spouting off numbers. that is valid, and irresponsible on his part.)

The Albert King story was told to me by Mike Gminski a Duke basketball player, sorry, no link for that. I believed the story at the time. Poster UH on the TDD is connected with the U in an official capacity. He might shoot you the SAT break down for the Duke football team. The Train may or may not feel at liberty to share Stanford specific data. An informed DAAAC member could confirm the cutoffs and "stretch" ranges for the Duke Football team. 1226 average for the Stanford Football team was asserted by another poster, said told to him by a Football coach at Stanford, on this board without incident or recourse. A word about SATs, along the way the math verbal 1600 based SAT (folks dont pay too much attention to the writing section - another possible 800 points) was recurved so what was about 1100 before became around 1220 after - still around 80th percentile. In my day at Duke, Stanford Football had 1100 SAT averages based on data published by the NCAA. Sorry no link to back when. Since 1226 is about the same thing today math verbal as was 1100 back then, Stanford Football is still hanging around 80th percentile. I find this believable. 1200 back when I took the exam was about 90th percentile. Today its about 1420 math and verbal. Wiki has a percentile table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT

Of course, you can challenge the validity of the wiki data.:)

RelativeWays
10-16-2008, 08:38 PM
I heard this crazy rumor that recruiting doesn't make a good football program. There's all this crazy superfluous stuff like practice, conditioning and coaching too! But thats not all. I heard they even have to play the games and stuff! How insane is that?!?!?!?!?!

So anyway, Cut went on the show and said.....what? I'm having to wade through all this recruiting hullabaloo and I can't find an answer.

Scorp4me
10-17-2008, 12:19 PM
Unfortunately RelativeWays I did wade through all of it and there is not answer in the thread.

TwoDukeTattoos
10-22-2008, 11:05 AM
I learned via the Carolina message boards that a UT plane was logged at RDU within the past couple of days. The questions is, why was the plan here? Cut or Butcher?

PDDuke85
10-22-2008, 12:34 PM
If there's an orange plane at RDU, it must be for Butch. Cutt's MO is to drive through the night.
:D

Highlander
10-22-2008, 12:56 PM
I learned via the Carolina message boards that a UT plane was logged at RDU within the past couple of days. The questions is, why was the plan here? Cut or Butcher?

http://www.newsobserver.com/734/story/1263840.html


Cutcliffe said: "It wasn't here for me."
A Tennessee spokeswoman, Elizabeth Davis, said Tuesday the stop in Raleigh was to drop off school president John Petersen for a Southeast U.S.-Japan conference. Asked if the coach and the president would meet, she said, "I suspect Coach Cutcliffe is busy preparing for the Vanderbilt game."

concrete
10-26-2008, 10:50 AM
has V.O. been the player everyone was expecting when we first recruited him? Just curious? I think that will answer the "most" important recruit.

I mean I was ecstatic when we got Surgan too.