Gail Goestenkors employment thread [Archive]

Mike Corey

03-23-2007, 09:26 AM

The Duke Chronicle wrote about this very issue recently, reporting as follows:

Compared to the top tier of coaches in the women's game, however, Goestenkors' salary does not stack up. Tennessee's Pat Summitt is the highest-paid coach in women's college basketball at an average of $1.125 million guaranteed over six seasons, and Geno Auriemma's contract with Connecticut guarantees him $988,000 per year.

"They've both won a lot of national championships and are part of programs that make money for their institutions. They bring in profit for their athletic departments, and that's not the case for our women's program," Alleva said. "I'm sure some of these other institutions will offer significantly large packages to encourage her to go.

"I've received calls about Coach G for years. She's been our coach for the long term, and I hope to keep her as our coach for a long time.... Hopefully when all is said and done, she'll be our coach in the future."

Susan

03-23-2007, 11:30 AM

I can't blame Coach G for looking hard at a better contract. Let's find a way to keep her, PLEASE! Can I earmark my contributions to the Duke Annual fund to go to Coach G's salary? :)

BlueDevilBaby

03-23-2007, 12:04 PM

I just hope all this talk does not affect the team, particularly the underclassmen. I wish people could show some restraint on coaching movement issues when a team (and not just Duke) is still in the tournament, but the press gets paid for getting the skinny. Coach G - pleeeeaaase staaaaaay!

As an aside, Kay Yow was featured on GMA this morning by Robin Roberts.

DUKIECB

03-23-2007, 03:18 PM

phaedrus

03-23-2007, 03:28 PM

It's not fair to expect Duke to pay her what Summitt or Geno get. Those teams sell out every night and make money.

dukehick

03-23-2007, 03:33 PM

Wow, that would really be too bad if Coach G ended up leaving. Certainly understandable on her part if there is a significant money difference. I really enjoyed watching to women this year and hope that the program can continue at a high level.

I think this would really be too bad for Duke overall too... Given the bad PR the "Duke Brand" received over the past year with the LAX scandal (not to mention the fact that the majority of sports journalists use the Duke Men's team as their own personal punching bag), having the Women represent Duke seemed like a breath of fresh air. I think everyone agrees that the LAX program got a raw deal, but that aside, Duke athletics must face the realities of the fallout of that situation. I think having a first class women's program goes a long way in helping to put Duke back into positive media exposure.

I certainly hope the powers that be at Duke see this the same way and are willing to make the necessary investment in Coach G even if it means that funds would have to be reallocated. Seems like a wise strategic investment to me...

dukie8

03-23-2007, 07:16 PM

I understand the fact that the men take precedent over the women at Duke, however I am amazed at just how little support the women get. I wish the Duke athletic dept. would step up and reward the job tat Coach G has done for the women's program. I don't blame her one bit for leaving if she feels she isn't being compensated enough for her efforts. Why should she stay if her employer doesn't value her abilities enough to at least keep her salary in line with other coaches of the same ability? Here's hoping that the AD will step up and do what needs to be done to keep one of the finest coaches in the country.

what does your conclusion that the women get so "little support" mean? are their facilities subpar? are they not allowed to travel where they want to due to financial reasons? you don't blame her if she feels she "isn't being compensated enough for her efforts?" so if she thought that she was worth $5 million a year, you would agree with her? she's the head women's basketball coach at duke with no national championships. it is what it is. does the women's team even turn a profit? after she puts up a track record like summit and geno, come back to us about how she should be paid similar to them.

I think having a first class women's program goes a long way in helping to put Duke back into positive media exposure.

I certainly hope the powers that be at Duke see this the same way and are willing to make the necessary investment in Coach G even if it means that funds would have to be reallocated. Seems like a wise strategic investment to me...

so duke should just completely overpay for her (ie, pay her the same as k, summit or geno) because that somehow will look good to the media? do you mean how tubby, as the former highest paid male coach, was portrayed so well by the media? g has done a great job and i hope she stays but she coaches a team that can't even come close to selling out most home games in tiny cis even though the team was ranked #1 most of the season. in the grand scheme of things, it just is not that significant of a position.

Duvall

03-23-2007, 07:21 PM

....

Bring back codes.

arnie

03-23-2007, 07:59 PM

Coach G may be the classiest coach in women's bball and it would be a significant blow to Duke to lose her. However, given the travails of the past year and with no AD leadership, who could blame her. She may also see the writing on the wall with the outcry from the "Committee" and others at Duke that want to de-emphasize athletics.

I was at Duke in the early 70's when "de-emphasis" was threatened and I think that help contribute to the downfall of football. K is trying to stem the tide, but he needs help!!

thomas

03-23-2007, 08:02 PM

Perhaps i should have left this issue alone but I love our women's program and am so proud of what Coach G has done. I was only hoping those who read about it here or in BDW would speak up and support her. We should never take our assets for granted.

MChambers

03-23-2007, 08:22 PM

At the same time, however, I hope she makes the decision based on more than just salary. She makes a nice living already. There are things that are more important than $.

adam

03-23-2007, 11:42 PM

ESPN Radio reported earlier today that Coach G is the leading front-runner for the Texas job.

I understand that women's basketball [at Duke] isn't the money-maker that the men's team is. Yet, it still blows my mind that the women's games don't sell out. If commuting to Durham (from Boise, ID) was a little easier, I'd have season tickets for sure.

Count me in for the "Keep Coach G at Duke" fund.

Go Duke! :)

Law Talking Guy

03-24-2007, 12:03 AM

I agree with those above who stated concern for these rumors' effect on our girls. Perhaps it would serve us best to devote our efforts to supporting the team, which is driving for a title RIGHT NOW, and Coach G, who is our coach RIGHT NOW. The speculation can wait.

Susan

03-24-2007, 12:10 AM

I agree that I don't understand why the games don't sell out. I just don't buy the argument that because Duke games don't sell out (and so we don't make the kind of $$$ that Tennessee and UConn do) we shouldn't attempt to pay Coach G a comparable salary. To me that's a very short-sighted view. If she's the kind of coach who can get us to the point where we have fan support like Tennessee and UConn (and I truly believe she is) then isn't it worth it to make every possible attempt to keep her?

adam

03-24-2007, 12:18 AM

...isn't it worth it to make every possible attempt to keep her?

Agreed. Duke should offer her the same kind of lifetime contract that Coach K has. Coach G is as much a part of Duke basketball as Coach K.

dukie8

03-24-2007, 12:23 AM

Agreed. Duke should offer her the same kind of lifetime contract that Coach K has. Coach G is as much a part of Duke basketball as Coach K.

you guys are nuts. k has been at duke for 25 years, has won 3 ncs, generates millions of dollars for the school from his team every year, has been a critical part of duke's rise to national prominence as an academic school, is an international figure and is one of this generation's great leaders and you want to pay coach g the same as k??? what am i missing here?

Duvall

03-24-2007, 12:36 AM

you guys are nuts. k has been at duke for 25 years, has won 3 ncs, generates millions of dollars for the school from his team every year, has been a critical part of duke's rise to national prominence as an academic school, is an international figure and is one of this generation's great leaders

Please. I respect Krzyzewski as much as the next guy, but the guy still wears a whistle to work. Duke was an up-and-coming school when K was still trying to get Army into the NIT.

killerleft

03-24-2007, 12:46 AM

I say Gail is at least 10 times more of an asset to Duke that Brodhead. What does he make?

killerleft

03-24-2007, 12:47 AM

Whoops... than Brodhead!

throatybeard

03-24-2007, 12:49 AM

you guys are nuts. k has been at duke for 25 years, has won 3 ncs, generates millions of dollars for the school from his team every year, has been a critical part of duke's rise to national prominence as an academic school, is an international figure and is one of this generation's great leaders and you want to pay coach g the same as k??? what am i missing here?

I wasn't aware that Mike Krzyzewski hired all those professors away from more-established research schools, started the school of Public Policy, endowed the Nicholas School of the Environment, ran the Med center...

Heck, your post sounds like Brokaw talking about the guys at Omaha Beach.

dukie8

03-24-2007, 01:00 AM

I wasn't aware that Mike Krzyzewski hired all those professors away from more-established research schools, started the school of Public Policy, endowed the Nicholas School of the Environment, ran the Med center...

Heck, your post sounds like Brokaw talking about the guys at Omaha Beach.

i said critical part. no k and there is no way that duke sits right behind HYP today. it's laughable that people are posting on here that g should be paid the same as k (who, by the way, is probably the most undercompensated coach in sports).

Son of Jarhead

03-24-2007, 01:03 AM

I think we should offer her more to keep her here. She seems to have the program on the right track. Not Summit money yet, but more than she is getting now.

BTW, I ran into G at Food Lion last year... Food Lion? :eek: We should at least be paying her enough to shop at Harris-Teeter. :)

I say, in addition to more $, we rename the center jump circle "The G Spot". :D (...Um, can I say that?:confused:...sorry.)

Go G! Go Girls! Go Duke! GTHC!

throatybeard

03-24-2007, 01:03 AM

i said critical partno k and there is no way that duke sits right behind HYP today.

Please substantiate that with some sort of evidence.

gadzooks

03-24-2007, 06:27 AM

it's laughable that people are posting on here that g should be paid the same as k (who, by the way, is probably the most undercompensated coach in sports).Who said that? I looked back through the thread and didn't see anyone suggest she should be paid the same amount as K. There was a suggestion that she get a lifetime contract like K's, but that doesn't necessarily mean the same dollar amount. I don't even see anyone suggest she make the same as Pat or Geno, as you also said earlier. There's evidence that she's not making as much as Jody Conradt was at Texas, and I think that's the level of compensation most people are thinking of when they say Duke should be paying her more.

dukie8

03-24-2007, 09:25 AM

Who said that? I looked back through the thread and didn't see anyone suggest she should be paid the same amount as K. There was a suggestion that she get a lifetime contract like K's, but that doesn't necessarily mean the same dollar amount. I don't even see anyone suggest she make the same as Pat or Geno, as you also said earlier. There's evidence that she's not making as much as Jody Conradt was at Texas, and I think that's the level of compensation most people are thinking of when they say Duke should be paying her more.

what do you think these posts mean?

I just don't buy the argument that because Duke games don't sell out (and so we don't make the kind of $$$ that Tennessee and UConn do) we shouldn't attempt to pay Coach G a comparable salary. To me that's a very short-sighted view. If she's the kind of coach who can get us to the point where we have fan support like Tennessee and UConn (and I truly believe she is) then isn't it worth it to make every possible attempt to keep her?

Duke should offer her the same kind of lifetime contract that Coach K has. Coach G is as much a part of Duke basketball as Coach K.

the first one clearly implies that despite not selling out games like uconn and tenn, duke nonetheless SHOULD pay her the same as summit and geno. the second one says that duke should pay her the "same kind of lifetime contract that Coach K has" and then goes on to say that g is "as much a part of Duke basketball as Coach K," which is beyond ridiculous. i don't understand how you can misunderstand that statement as stating anything other than duke should pay her the same as k. every time i read statements like the above, which says that she is as much a part of duke basketball as k, i just roll my eyes. as i stated above, there is no doubt that she has done a great job and that many people respect her. however, the reality is that she coaches a sport that i believe doesn't even make a profit and that cannot even come close to selling out most home games (i looked at the box scores of a bunch of the home games and it looked like they get about 5000 a pop). moreover, on the national or international level, she has no presense. grab 10 people walking down the street and ask them if they know who she is and if they know who k is. in most places in the us, nobody will know who she is and most will know who k is. it makes absolutely no sense for duke to just open up the checkbook and pay her k, summit or geno money at this point in her career.

dukehick

03-24-2007, 09:46 AM

so duke should just completely overpay for her (ie, pay her the same as k, summit or geno) because that somehow will look good to the media? do you mean how tubby, as the former highest paid male coach, was portrayed so well by the media? g has done a great job and i hope she stays but she coaches a team that can't even come close to selling out most home games in tiny cis even though the team was ranked #1 most of the season. in the grand scheme of things, it just is not that significant of a position.

dukie8,

What on earth does Tubby have to do with this? And when did I ever imply that she should be paid as much as K? I simply stated (quite correctly IMHO) that if Duke is looking around thinking about a good strategic investment to make in the Duke brand... then look no further than the Women's basketball program. If that means matching an offer she may get at LSU or Texas, then yes, I think that makes sense. Whether the women's program makes a profit or not is irrelevant because my point is that the benefits will eventually be seen by the University more broadly. Don't kid yourself, a University is as much about PR and reputation as it is about buildings and faculty. And again, the point here is that it is an investment. I admit to being ignorant about all of their finances but given their record over the past few years I imagine that with proper management the women's program could be well on its way to turning a profit.

dukie8

03-24-2007, 10:01 AM

dukie8,

What on earth does Tubby have to do with this? And when did I ever imply that she should be paid as much as K? I simply stated (quite correctly IMHO) that if Duke is looking around thinking about a good strategic investment to make in the Duke brand... then look no further than the Women's basketball program. If that means matching an offer she may get at LSU or Texas, then yes, I think that makes sense. Whether the women's program makes a profit or not is irrelevant because my point is that the benefits will eventually be seen by the University more broadly. Don't kid yourself, a University is as much about PR and reputation as it is about buildings and faculty. And again, the point here is that it is an investment. I admit to being ignorant about all of their finances but given their record over the past few years I imagine that with proper management the women's program could be well on its way to turning a profit.

you do have to look further than duke women's basketball team because in the big picture it really isn't that big of a deal at duke. the team doesn't make money and 5000 people show up to home games. how many people each year go to duke because of women's basketball? how many people go to duke each year because of men's or women's golf? how many people each year go to duke because of men's basketball? if you don't see the difference, i don't know what to tell you. 99.99% of the public knows nothing about duke women's basketball and i don't see that changing anytime soon. duke, as a business, cannot just ridiculously overpay for someone's services no matter how good of a job that person has done just because a small minority of people think that it should.

throatybeard

03-24-2007, 10:28 AM

i said critical partno k and there is no way that duke sits right behind HYP today.

Please substantiate that with some sort of evidence.

Son of Jarhead

03-24-2007, 12:31 PM

kexman

03-24-2007, 02:50 PM

I agree with the earlier post that coach K and the basketball team has a lot to do with Duke's rise in stature. I'll admit that I first looked at Duke since I was a fan of the team from elementary school and when I approached graduation i thought it was a great fit.

Now I do cheer for women's basketball, the golf team and basically any other team that Duke fields. However, I'm not really sure that having a successful women's basketball team or baseball team or some other non-revenue sport is all that important to the overall image of the university. Do I want the golf team to be good...sure, do I think we should spend millions....I'm not sure.

I guess this goes to the question of whether duke should spend money on sports or the educational mission/stature of the university. I think spending money on the football team/men's basketball team is a good investment. Free publicity/ name recognition. Not taking title 9 in to account, I'm not sure if non-revenue sports provide the free advertising and recognition that warrants the investment. I'm sure someone with a business background could monetize this somehow. With out a lot more money we can't be the best at everything (sports or particular educational departments). People smarter than me will have to decide where to put our large, but limited resources to best use.

Note: the women's basketball team may be losing money in dollar amounts, but they do bring some free publicity to the school by having games on TV, articles in the newspaper, etc. Not to the same extent as the men's team, but that should be added to the ledger as well.

gadzooks

03-24-2007, 03:13 PM

the first one clearly implies that despite not selling out games like uconn and tenn, duke nonetheless SHOULD pay her the same as summit and geno. the second one says that duke should pay her the "same kind of lifetime contract that Coach K has" and then goes on to say that g is "as much a part of Duke basketball as Coach K," which is beyond ridiculous. i don't understand how you can misunderstand that statement as stating anything other than duke should pay her the same as k. every time i read statements like the above, which says that she is as much a part of duke basketball as k, i just roll my eyes. as i stated above, there is no doubt that she has done a great job and that many people respect her. however, the reality is that she coaches a sport that i believe doesn't even make a profit and that cannot even come close to selling out most home games (i looked at the box scores of a bunch of the home games and it looked like they get about 5000 a pop). moreover, on the national or international level, she has no presense. grab 10 people walking down the street and ask them if they know who she is and if they know who k is. in most places in the us, nobody will know who she is and most will know who k is. it makes absolutely no sense for duke to just open up the checkbook and pay her k, summit or geno money at this point in her career.OK, on second reading, you have a point with that first one, and I hope that's simply because that poster doesn't know just how much Geno/Pat make. I do agree that she's not quite at that level just yet.

However, I still don't read "a lifetime contract like K's" as "a contract exactly the same in every respect." Perhaps that poster will come back and clarify, but I still simply see it as wanting Duke to recognize that G has put this program on the map when it was a bunch of nobodies before, and they want her to stick around for a long time, and are willing to pay her a sufficient amount to make that happen.

dukehick

03-24-2007, 03:30 PM

you do have to look further than duke women's basketball team because in the big picture it really isn't that big of a deal at duke. the team doesn't make money and 5000 people show up to home games. how many people each year go to duke because of women's basketball? how many people go to duke each year because of men's or women's golf? how many people each year go to duke because of men's basketball? if you don't see the difference, i don't know what to tell you. 99.99% of the public knows nothing about duke women's basketball and i don't see that changing anytime soon. duke, as a business, cannot just ridiculously overpay for someone's services no matter how good of a job that person has done just because a small minority of people think that it should.

As a marketer I beg to differ with your business analysis here. First of all, I think you underestimate the media exposure that the women already get. Plus, once the team starts winning NCs, general public awareness and will certainly increase. Implying that investments in Duke's image is money down the drain or "ridulously overpaying" is simply shortsighted. I think you completely missed my point in your comments above. My point is that yes, you need to look beyond women's basketball and think about what this means in the context of Duke University as a whole. That IS my point. And I submit that when you do that you realize that putting a few hundred thousand incremental over current costs is well worth it when you consider the PR payoff of a Duke women's team winning NCs. Making the point about the women's team not making money is myopic in this situation.

dukie8

03-24-2007, 03:49 PM

Ok, so Women's B'ball only attracts 5000 fans or so a game, and maybe they don't turn a profit. Ok. There are only two sports that turn a profit generally, Men's B'ball & Football, all across college sports, with few exceptions. Every other sport at Duke probably loses money. Should we not pay a competative wage to those coaches, too, just because there team loses money. No. You make a calculated judgement on the overall value of sport to the University, not limiting yourself to just whether they make a profit or not. Our Women's B'ball adds a lot to the University and is probably fairly close to turning a profit. Attendence is not the only way to generate income. All these trips deep into the post season bring in money, as does the many games we play on TV every year. Both of those pots have been growing in recent years, I sure. Coach G has been instrumental in increasing our share of those growing pots. As the popularity of the women's game continues to grow, Duke will be in a great position to profit from it, but only if we remain committed. We make far less money in Football now mainly, I feel, because we did not remain committed to keeping ourselves in the best position to profit from that sports popularity. Can we afford to make the same mistake in Women's B'ball when it is the next most likely to actually be profitable?

Pay G more, not Summit money, but equal to, or preferrably, more than any other Women's B'ball coach in the ACC. Stay committed to growing the sport and soon the investment will pay off. We can get the game to the same level as Tenn or UConn, but it will take a commitment & patience.

Go G! Go Girls! Go Duke! GTHC!

this article should end a lot of the speculation going on here:

http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2007/03/20/News/Would.Coach.G.Leave.Duke-2782112.shtml

the key points were:
*duke women's hoops LOST $2 million dollars in 2006 while uconn made $1 million and tennessee made $50K.
*summitt is guaranteed $1.125 million/yr for 6 years and gene is guaranteed just under $1 million/yr (it didn't for how many).
*duke is a private school so it only has to disclose its top 5 paid employees (of which she is not), the 5th of which came in at $533K.
*alleva rightfully would not disclose her comp but stated that tenn and uconn "both won a lot of national championships and are part of programs that make money for their institutions. They bring in profit for their athletic departments, and that's not the case for our women's program" and that coach g is "very well compensated in the world of women's basketball."

do i wish she stays? of course. is it good for duke to have women's hoops, along with any other sport, doing well? of course. does duke need to pay the coach of the women's team that lost $2 million last year $1 million/yr? no, that is ridiculous. it also would be ridiculous if the lax coach or the soccer coaches wanted $1 million per year. further, it should be noted that coach g has NOT stated in public that she wants more money or that she should be in line with uconn and tenn -- it's just some overzealous posters on here.

regarding throaty's request for substantiation of the belief that k has had a critical role in duke's ascent as a university the past 25 years, there isn't anything black and white on it. however, the hockey stick spike in applications in the late 80s and early 90s directly coincided with the success of the basketball? a merely coincidence? maybe, but based on some of the conversations that i have had with people in the know at duke, not likely. once you attribute a large part of the spike in applications to the success of the basketball team, it is easy to start extrapolating from there. more applicants means more highly qualified applicants and more highly qualified applicants who accept duke over other top schools. once they show up to duke, everyone benefits because the students are that much more well rounded, intelligent and successful. once they graduated, they go on to be more successful in whatever fields they choose (eg, law, medicine, finance, academia, etc). a lot of these successful graduates have more money than prior graduates because they are more successful and then give back more to duke. we already have seen this with record years of alumni giving over the past several years.

this whole process doesn't happen overnight and takes years to play out. there is a reason why duke isn't vanderbilt, johns hopkins, emory, tufts or wash u and i attribute a lot of it to k. i hardly am a k sychophant like a lot of the posters on here and question a lot of his basketball related decisions (eg, bench play, recruiting, scheduling, etc). however, what he has brought to duke off the court over the past 25 years truly is nonpareil in modern times and i will be forever grateful to him for that.

throatybeard

03-24-2007, 03:50 PM

Undergraduate admission percentages are a very small part of institutional profile.

dukie8

03-24-2007, 03:58 PM

As a marketer I beg to differ with your business analysis here. First of all, I think you underestimate the media exposure that the women already get. Plus, once the team starts winning NCs, general public awareness and will certainly increase. Implying that investments in Duke's image is money down the drain or "ridulously overpaying" is simply shortsighted. I think you completely missed my point in your comments above. My point is that yes, you need to look beyond women's basketball and think about what this means in the context of Duke University as a whole. That IS my point. And I submit that when you do that you realize that putting a few hundred thousand incremental over current costs is well worth it when you consider the PR payoff of a Duke women's team winning NCs. Making the point about the women's team not making money is myopic in this situation.

see my last post. i don't underestimate anything -- they lost $2 million last year and i never have heard of a single person who went to duke over other peer schools because of the women's basketball team. compare that to countless people in knew at duke who chose duke over similar schools expressly because of the basketball team. see the article i posted and you will see that this isn't "a few hundred thousand incremental over current costs" but more like closer to 2/3 to 3/4 of a million per year. again, the pr of duke winning a women's nc championship is hardly the bonanza that you think it is. it certainly is good but how much bang does duke get when a golf, soccer or tennis team wins a nc? other than a tiny segment of the population who follows those sports, not really anything. women's basketball is no different. heck, it isn't even a big deal in durham if you look at the light attendence figures.

again, it is unfortunate that so many people are making twisted arguments for her and putting words in her mouth because she has not said anything publicly in that regard and nobody on here has any idea what she is thinking.

dukie8

03-24-2007, 03:59 PM

Undergraduate admission percentages are a very small part of institutional profile.

the quality of the undergrad students is probably the most important aspect of a university. you can have the best facilities and faculty members in the world but if the students are a bunch of ninnies, it doesn't really matter.

throatybeard

03-24-2007, 04:02 PM

you can have the best facilities and faculty members in the world but if the students are a bunch of ninnies, it doesn't really matter.

That's a straw man. Name one such place.

dukie8

03-24-2007, 04:07 PM

That's a straw man. Name one such place.

now we get a dose of the completely overused "strawman" comeback. take your pick of the top state universities. they all have tremendous facilities and tremendous faculty but the quality of the undergrad students doesn't come close to that of duke undergrads. now it's time for you to answer a question, name a school that has a lower quality of undergrads than duke but is a better school? good luck.

throatybeard

03-24-2007, 04:22 PM

now we get a dose of the completely overused "strawman" comeback. take your pick of the top state universities. they all have tremendous facilities and tremendous faculty but the quality of the undergrad students doesn't come close to that of duke undergrads.

That's irrelevant, unless you've reduced institutional quality to ugrad rejection %age.

now it's time for you to answer a question, name a school that has a lower quality of undergrads than duke but is a better school? good luck.

I reject the underlying assumption that you can empirically measure, in fine gradations the quality of 3000 versus 6000 versus 40000 people. And I could name several places like Chicago, but you would reject them becuase of your underlying assumptions, so there's no point.

phaedrus

03-24-2007, 04:35 PM

fire ogilvie huh? if that means what i think it means, i'd like to hear where your interests lie in the matter.

tecumseh

03-24-2007, 04:38 PM

I have news for you out there not too many people really care about women's basketball. Particularly the casual fan which is how you make an impact with a program...get someone to notice Gonzaga who never would have noticed it otherwise. I think it is a crime to pour 2 million down a hole called women's basketball.

dukie8

03-24-2007, 04:45 PM

That's irrelevant, unless you've reduced institutional quality to ugrad rejection %age.

I reject the underlying assumption that you can empirically measure, in fine gradations the quality of 3000 versus 6000 versus 40000 people. And I could name several places like Chicago, but you would reject them becuase of your underlying assumptions, so there's no point.

i don't feel like hijacking this thread so i am done after this one. to your first point, nice use of a strawman. if you don't think that the quality of the undergrads matters, that's great but most people disagree with you. to your second point, you actually can measure empirical differences in student bodies and they aren't in fine gradations. high school gpas, sats, ap scores, etc of the undergrads are easy to measure. duke undergrads are significantly better than undergrads at any state school. it's not even close. once they graduate, it is a lot more murky, but you can look at a whole host of empirical numbers like compensation, % with graduate degrees, % that donate and how much is donated, etc. again, duke is significantly better than any state school. i'm not sure what you were trying to prove by throwing chicago out there. academically, it is a great school. it's faculty is tremendous. however, its facilities are deplorable and it has a very very difficult time attracting top high school students due to its location (a ghetto), its horrible facilities, it's lack of sports, its lack of a social life and its tremendously demanding academics. largely because of these reasons it has not been able to attract its share of top high school students and has fallen precipitously in recent years and now is muck easier to get into than other peer schools. the days of jay berwanger are ancient history. however, if they were to go d1 in basketball and have k take over, i have little doubt that you would see a monumental change in its stature.

throatybeard

03-24-2007, 04:48 PM

if you don't think that the quality of the undergrads matters, that's great but most people disagree with you. to your second point, you actually can measure empirical differences in student bodies and they aren't in fine gradations. high school gpas, sats, ap scores, etc of the undergrads are easy to measure.

1) I never said Ugrad quality doesn't matter. I said it's one small part of overall instituional profile.

2) Those differences ARE in fine gradations when you look at the top schools. I'm not talking about Duke versus Barton College.

3rd Dukie

03-24-2007, 04:54 PM

Joe Alleva has gone off his meds again?
Regardless of his intentions regarding Coach G, it would have been nice if he had contracted a severe, temporary case of lockjaw until the tournament was done (at least Duke's participation. I thought his comments about NCs were very inappropriate. Talk about damning by faint praise!

mapei

03-24-2007, 05:00 PM

God this is depressing. If G leaves, can she at least leave her utterly gorgeous assistants behind?

VAGentleman05

03-24-2007, 05:03 PM

now we get a dose of the completely overused "strawman" comeback. take your pick of the top state universities. they all have tremendous facilities and tremendous faculty but the quality of the undergrad students doesn't come close to that of duke undergrads. now it's time for you to answer a question, name a school that has a lower quality of undergrads than duke but is a better school? good luck.

Completely off topic, I realize, and I won't belabor it with anymore posts, but as a current grad student at Duke and graduate of an elite state university, I think this is as much a source of the nationwide "hatred" for Duke as is the success that K and the men's program have had.

throatybeard

03-24-2007, 05:12 PM

I agree, VAGent.

BlueDevilBaby

03-24-2007, 05:21 PM

Completely off topic, I realize, and I won't belabor it with anymore posts, but as a current grad student at Duke and graduate of an elite state university, I think this is as much a source of the nationwide "hatred" for Duke as is the success that K and the men's program have had.

So a Duke grad should not be proud to be a Duke grad?

PROUD graduate of Lafayette College:D

adam

03-24-2007, 06:12 PM

Agreed. Duke should offer her the same kind of lifetime contract that Coach K has. Coach G is as much a part of Duke basketball as Coach K.

I didn't say Duke should pay Coach G the same amount of money as Coach K. I was merely stating that Coach G has built one of the best women's basketball programs in the country in the 15 years that she's been at Duke, and like Coach K, deserves a lifetime contract.

Coach G has lead Duke to an NCAA record 7 straight 30+ win seasons and 6 straight Sweet 16 appearances... I could go on and on about what she's accomplished. True, she hasn't won a national championship yet, but nonetheless, she is absolutely deserving of a long-term contract.

Coach K type money? Not yet. One of the top 5 highest paid women's coaches? Absolutely.

Go Duke!!

Lord Ash

03-24-2007, 06:27 PM

A real shame about the game.

But about quality of students, I think you need to be realistic.

When I was an undergrad at Duke, there were 11 students on my floor. 9 of them were their high school valedictorians.

I agree that people might get annoyed that Duke students think they are so capable, but guess what; they are. I am always annoyed when a person at some average university (and there is nothing wrong with average!) says "Oh, I am sure the students are Harvard aren't THAT much smarter than we are!"

Yes, they are. I know a lot of Harvard grads, and every one of them is, quite frankly, brilliant. My fiancee is getting her grad degree at a local state college, and the level of intelligence and study there among the students makes her CRY.

Anyway, I don't want to get off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

bluedevil

03-27-2007, 01:47 AM

Trey Wingo of ESPN reported that Goestenkors is only the 5th highest paid coach at Duke. John Watson of thedevilsden revealed that an assistant coach at Duke, presumably Dawkins who refuses to even recruit, makes more than twice as much money as coach G. The announcers in the Duke - Temple game said Coach G is in the 2nd year of a 4 year contract. Even the terrible football coaches Franks and Roof each signed 5 year contracts before even starting at Duke. Then Franks had 2 winless seasons in a row and Alleva gave him a raise and 5 year contract extension. Roof hasn't won a div.IA game in 2 years and Alleva has guaranteed him at least 2 more seasons, so he'll make more money than G each year with more years on his contract, for 4 winless seasons in a row. What can we conclude from all this? It's clear that Coach G isn't wanted at Duke by the powers that be who have been pushing her to leave for years in a not even remotely subtle manner.

We all know Alleva has made nothing but bad decisions. He fired a two time national football coach of the year to hire Franks, then Roof, both inexperienced and pathetic losers who got raises, contract extensions, and guarantees after 2 straight winless seasons. He fired Duke's winningest baseball coach ever to hire Hillier who was 97-171 at UNC Wilmington and 20-39 the season before Alleva hired him. After Hillier's horrendous records and last place ACC finishes and steroid scandal, he was replaced by completely inexperienced McNally who is 6-30 in the ACC and getting worse. Alleva hires the cheapest and worst coaches in all major sports except mens basketball, where even all the assistant coaches seem to make more money than coach G for some bizarre reason.

This obviously loses much more money than it saves, especially in football, and now he wants to do the same for womens hoops. Duke loses millions in ticket sales and donations because of its pathetic football program, and would lose millions more if G left. Alleva hiring and supporting the worst winless coaches in history while publicly trying to push out the best coach in the nation makes zero sense, right? But why is it happening, to appease Coach K and ensure the primacy of mens hoops? Is Coach K in charge or Alleva, is coach K upset that G took over a terrible program and already has a better win percentage than any ACC mens or womens coach along with a program that's #1 every year and getting better? Will coach K make a statement supporting coach G or will she be gone in a few days?

Duke has billions and gets hundreds of millions in donations each year largely because of satisfaction at championship caliber hoops, watching basketball is the only way most alums stay connected to Duke. Womens basketball is on the rise, fans camped out in Goestenkorsville for the first time this season, and coaching salaries are rapidly increasing around the nation. So how does it make sense to let the best coach in the nation go if any competent replacement would also command the same salary G would need to stay in order to have any kind of halfway decent program? G deserves a longterm contract like K not an insulting 4 years, and a raise to whatever it takes to keep her. All they have to do is switch her salary with Dawkins, that should have happened years ago.

Joe Alleva needs to go and every single Duke fan and fansite needs to make that happen by concentrating on that until it happens. Wake AD Ron Wellman or even Duke's associate AD for women sports Jacki Silar who hired Bozman in field hockey could be good replacements. Duke needs leadership and needs to stop making ridiculously irrational decisions every chance it gets for a change. Nobody in their right mind can claim that losing G over half a million or whatever it takes per year makes any sense financial or otherwise when she brings in millions in donations per year not to mention the most attendance by far in the ACC. Beyond those millions each year, the value of her pristine #1 program in prestige, positive press, and the joy it brings to alumni and fans, is priceless.

Bob Green

03-27-2007, 03:42 AM

bluedevil

03-27-2007, 05:43 AM

http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish/article_0474.shtml

"BA-What are your duties and responsibilities?

JD-Well not that much recruiting.Really coaching and player development."

Dawkins is a longtime family friend of Gerald Henderson and Nolan Smith since ha played in the NBA with their fathers. That's not really recruiting. Recruiting is going to some stranger's home halfway across the country and convincing their son to play for Duke, something he'll have to do a lot of if he ever gets the Duke head coaching position as many think he will despite his lack of qualifications and the failures of Gaudet, Snyder, Amaker, etc. Duke insiders have mentioned many times that Dawkins leaves the recruiting to Wojo and Collins along with K because he has a family and doesn't like to travel.

The real question is why the heck is Dawkins making more than twice as much money as G, and why is G only the 5th highest paid coach at Duke with an insulting 4 year contract?? Why wasn't Alleva at the womens NCAA games instead of hanging out at the mens tournament long after Duke's elimination? Does Alleva or K ever go to womens games? Are K and Alleva trying to push national coach of the year G to leave while trying to keep last place losers like Roof and McNally around forever, why? Isn't it a good thing if G's program is #1 and improving especially when K's program finished in the bottom half of the ACC, since it gives Duke fans something to be optimistic about? K publicly supported the incompetent Alleva when he was hired and kept him around when Duke fans wanted him out every year, so why no statement of support for the best coach in the ACC and nation, G? Time's running out, enough with the stalling, either say you want her at Duke or you don't.

Bob Green

03-27-2007, 06:02 AM

I'll have to disagree with you in regard to Coach Dawkins and recruiting. IMO, his involvement with Gerald Henderson, Jr. and Nolan Smith is definitely recruiting. Coach Dawkins is an invaluable member of the Duke staff and worth every penny he is paid.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

bluedevil

03-27-2007, 06:41 AM

Dawkins was a longtime family friend of Henderson and Smith, I don't think much recruiting was involved, he himself said he doesn't really recruit and Duke insiders have known this for years. If Dawkins or any other of K's assistants left tomorrow that would be a great thing because Duke could hire a big man coach who is a great recruiter and we wouldn't be in the mess we're in for the past season and next season. Duke has had a reputation for not developing players which is largely Dawkins' responsibility, McRoberts went from a top 8 pick out of high school to lottery after his freshman year to barely first round this year. Also, Duke's FT shooting has been very suspect outside of Redick and Scheyer, a lot of allamericans like Shav and Burgess strangely end up shooting 40% FT for their Duke career. And in-game adjustments and strategy has been almost nonexistent. Duke doesn't exactly have a stellar record with their assistants like Gaudet, Snyder, and Amaker.

Why hasn't anybody been interested in hiring Dawkins, Wojo, or Collins, since they each make more money from Duke than hot commodity coach G who is likely to be offered around $1 million? Is Duke overpaying the mens basketball assistants and underpaying G, according to their market value? How is it that Duke can easily afford to overpay huge salaries for Dawkins, Wojo, or Collins, when the mens program was better before any of them were sitting on the bench, and then claim it can't afford to pay even close to market value for a national coach of the year like G?

Dawkins certainly doesn't deserve more than twice what national coach of the year G is paid, since G built the program from nothing to #1 in the nation leading the ACC in attendance by a wide margin. G leaving would be a disaster since she's a great recruiter and teacher improving players year by year and teaching great offense, FT shooting and team defense, usually holding opponents to under 35% shooting each season. That's real coaching down to the smallest details, any other coach would bring the womens program down in a big way. Which is why G is often national coach of the year, and ACC coach of the year every other season. It's not like giving G a raise means taking the money from Dawkins. G should be thrilled that Dawkins makes more than twice what she makes because that means Duke obviously has plenty of money to throw around and more than enough to pay her what she's worth.

mgtr

03-27-2007, 08:15 AM

Title 9 or not, women's basketball is not men's basketball. How much does the volleyball coach get paid? How about water polo? Field hockey?
Now does Coach G deserve a raise/better contract? Sure, she has been fabulously successful, but don't try to put that on a par with men's basketball.
I wonder if Duke football makes money or not (of course, at most big time football schools, it is extraordinarily profitable). If not, maybe the answer is to kill football, particularly if we cannot be competitive.

BCGroup

03-27-2007, 08:22 AM

weezie

03-27-2007, 08:34 AM

Yeah, BC. Dawkins is just as valuable in his role as a teacher. JD also runs the summer basketball programs at Duke and those programs make money for the department, too. Maybe he should work 24/7 but I think he deserves some credit for what he brings to the team.
I thought K's decision about turning down the Lakers also included increased salaries for his assistants. K has to look out for his own, not to say that he begrudges the women, either.

devildownunder

03-27-2007, 09:00 AM

I don't understand the negativity/hostility about Johnny Dawkins. And, despite your comments, there is a difference in terms of the money generated by different sports, and the profile level. Is Coach G worth more? Yes. Do I have some issues with Joe Alleva? I certainly don't agree with all his choices. However, I'm not the one who makes those decisions. More importantly, to say we should pay JD less because of this and because he doesn't recruit is simply wrong. You clearly want to set value based on recruiting only, and I also read that you want to get rid of some of our other coaches. This season wasn't what many expected, but I'm on the side that they know what they are doing for the long-term, and I'm not going to turn into a Kentucky fan and run them off (or at this point, some of the UNC fans who want Roy gone because of their loss). Back to your original point: make a case for paying her more if you want, but do it on her merits, not on what others have. And before you make this an issue of sexism, I'm a female.

It seems to me that it's a question of paying what the market demands. If G can command $1 million on the open market, then Duke will have to offer comparable dollars to keep her. What Dawkins makes is not relevant, unless it has become a sore spot for G and has contributed to a deterioration of relations between her and the school. I have not heard that this is the case. In fact, despite the screed that started this thread, I have always heard that K and Alleva were quite supportive of the women's program, based on comments they, themselves, have made.

Perhaps, in the latest contract negotions, this has all changed. I don't know. I sure hope not. Coach G was the architect. She is the energy force that created this powerhouse from nothing. Every coach in the athletic department should be alarmed if Duke fails to retain her.

dukeimac

03-27-2007, 09:23 AM

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but did Coach K start out at Duke with winning seasons? I think the first 2 seasons were losing seasons, so if you hold to the idea that someone who has a loosing season or two to start their career should go then Coach K wouldn't be at Duke. Whatever lipmist test you use needs to hold true to everyone and not the ones you select.

Next, I wouldn't pay someone an enormous amount of money unless they proved themselves. Thus Coach G has finally gotten there and we'll see if Duke comes up with the bucks but to believe she was owed big dollars 2 years ago I think one would have needed a crystal ball to see that she would have continued her success to today, 2 years later. If she was worth the big bucks two years ago why did she sign the contract that paid so little? The question now is to see if Duke will give her a new contract.

About Dawkins and him not recruiting, I don't think every assistant coach recruits. I don't hear about how all UNC's assistants go recruiting, just the guys who might have it in with someone who is around the player. For example: Coach K was the one who went to see Singler play, with an assistant or two. But it wasn't just an assistant, no real connections in that part of the states. Wojo had been reported to go see some guys play but that was to make sure it was reported someone from Duke was there or that the player had a liken for Wojo's style of play. Ex-players might be the best recruiters, i.e. Grant Hill or Brand, etc.

Sounds like someone making a bunch of assumptions they know little about but they are mad Duke might lose a coach because someone made a bad decision. Sounds like the guy who doesn't think management will ever do a good job until they are the manager.

If Dawkins is one of the highest paid coaches at Duke why do you think that would be? Ah... because about 80%+ of their games are played on TV (i.e. TV revenue is huge, ask the Yankees) and if Coach K thinks he need Dawkins to be as good as they have been to be on TV 80%+ of the time, then you better pay he. How many Duke women's games have been on TV?

What is being passed on here is all emotions and little fact. Don't act on emotion, act on facts, you'll make less mistakes that way.

Hey did you see that UFO?

killerleft

03-27-2007, 09:29 AM

This thread has way too much negativity. Dawkins salary is important only as a reference, not whether he and our other assistants deserve them or not.

It is only my opinion, but Coach G deserves a much larger salary than she is now receiving. If Summitt and Geno are at a million or higher, I just can't justify paying her less than $650,000 - $750,000 a year.

Use your own formula to downgrade or upgrade her if you will, but she runs a great college basketball program that has been a very positive asset for Duke University. The attendance figures have improved a lot, and will continue to do so IF Gail Goestenkors remains at Duke.

I, for one, have really enjoyed seeing the rise of basketball at Duke under Coach G. I try to see several games a year, and haven't missed the ACC tourney since it has been in Greensboro.

Can we keep her? There has to be a financial point where we have to draw the line.

She is undoubtedly one of the top coaches in women's college basketball, maybe the best. Joe Alleva should make sure the line we draw is at least high enough to make her think twice. Letting her go without a fight is kinda like the Bambino getting away from Boston. We don't need the curse.

UncleBill

03-27-2007, 09:31 AM

There is a small, deluded, yet vocal minority who feel the university would be better off focusing its efforts on non-athletic endeavors, and leave the mouth-breathing, class-skipping, stipper-raping, beer-swilling jocks to other schools. Broadhead doesn't strike me as a huge athletic supporter (pun not intended), and I'm not completely sold on Alleva. They may be reacting to this minority a bit.

I miss Uncle Terry and Tom Butters.

bluedevil

03-27-2007, 10:24 AM

So are you going to blame some shadowy unnamed minority of egghead pennypinching professors if G leaves? Since when does Alleva listen to this supposed phantom organized antiathletic group or even know who they are? It's hilarious what some Duke fans can be led to believe, that Coach K of all people and Alleva are powerless in the face of unknown secret forces that somehow control Duke athletics.

Duke can afford $25 million for a FOOTBALL ONLY recruiting lounge/massage parlor for all those great bluechip gridiron recruits flocking to Wade, however many millions for some practice facility and various towers and handprint scanners for K, but can't afford to hire a decent football coach, or pay the best coach in the nation to stay at her #1 program?

And to think most Duke fans assume Alleva does nothing that K doesn't tell him to do. If that's the case, why has Alleva made such negative public statements about not being able to afford G, when Duke sure seems to be able to afford a million a year for Dawkins who does... what exactly?

Why hasn't K made a statement supporting G, since he made a public statement supporting Alleva for AD when Duke was about to hire an actual good AD from Iowa when Butters retired? And why does Alleva fire winners and two time national coaches of the year to hire the likes of Frank, Roof, Hillier, and McNally, then reward 2 winless seasons in a row with raises, contract extensions, and guarantees of more winless seasons? Getting rid of winners and multiple national coach of the year recipients, to bring in the cheapest and worst coaches in the ACC in all the major sports except mens basketball?

Does this benefit anyone except coach K and his standing and respect at Duke? It sure as hell doesn't benefit Alleva, who's already on incredibly thin ice and might as well resign the second that G leaves. Brodhead's already unpopular because of the lacrosse scandal and has developed an antiathletic reputation that he should be desperate to change at sports obsessed Duke, especially with a female coach that feminists and liberals probably love. So why does Duke seem so determined to force her to leave by not even coming close to matching any other offers or paying G market value or even giving her a contract that isn't a slap in the face when it can easily afford her with its billions? Who's really calling the shots here?

In addition to sending emails and calls to Brodhead and Alleva, I'd suggest doing the same for Coach K urging him to publicly support G before it's too late. G could be gone in a few days, now isn't the time for stallball or running out the clock.

BCGroup

03-27-2007, 10:32 AM

OK, I was going to simply ignore this, but the negativity is too much. First, not all professors hate athletics or want them to go away (yes, I'm also a professor at a university where our men's basketball coach is paid ten times what our professors are). I don't yell about that either. I think you probably have some good points to make, but the negative way you are approaching this makes me sense you have a hidden agenda. This is likely a complicated issue, driven by factors such as market value, overall funding for athletics, competition, and the emphasis (driven in part by alumni and fans) to improve football. I've probably missed something from your posts, but those were all in the mix. I don't believe anyone on this board is saying she shouldn't be paid more. But the approach here is making it worse. And, not to beat a dead horse, but this is why old timers liked the delayed posting codes.

kexman

03-27-2007, 10:37 AM

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but by NCAA rules only 2 assistant coaches are allowed to recruit on the road. Not sure of the exact rules, but there is some kind of stipulation on the number of assistants and recruiting.

I think market forces are a decent barometer about coaching salaries, but the men's team is irrelevant to the conversation. I believe at UConn the salary must be matched by state law (not sure about the shoe endorsements, etc).

I think this is the first year that Wimbledon is paying the same prizes for men and for women...not being a huge fan of tennis it seems like this makes sense since I think women's tennis is about as popular as men's (my guess).

Not that there is prize money, but I would think female figure skaters could command higher prizes than male figure skaters since the women's program generally commands higher viewers

The last two examples might be skewed depending on whether we are talking american audiences versus international audiences (US attention ebbs based on whether there is a top US athelete in the sport), but I think the US TV contracts are very lucrative.

Anyway, that was several random points

bluedevil

03-27-2007, 10:48 AM

I didn't say professors hate athletics, the previous poster said that and I was saying that wasn't true. In fact, one of the huge perks of teaching at Duke isn't living in Durham, it's enjoying the best big time sports of any school in the world.

Bottom line is, K controls Duke athletics and Alleva has no power and is completely dominated by K who hired him and kept him from being fired many times because he knows lil Joe will do whatever he says. K was able to get Duke to pay ASSISTANT coach Dawkins about $1 million a year. Does anyone remember a big uproar from the fans about Dawkins not making enough or needing to keep him from other schools with better offers?? Most Duke fans WANT Dawkins or Collins or Wojo to leave so they can gain needed experience as a head coach before maybe taking over from K, and so Duke can hire a big man coach and recruiter.

So does anyone with an IQ over 30 think K can't get $1 million a year for national coach of the year G, when she's as good as gone along with womens basketball success and the league leading attendance and 15 TV games per year if Duke doesn't pay her market value? Especially with thousands of Duke fans in an uproar that she might leave, threatening to stop donations, etc.? Either K will keep her or he won't, but keep sending those emails and waiting for that statement of support.

wiscodevil

03-27-2007, 11:11 AM

Dopeshop

03-27-2007, 11:29 AM

I hope some one knows how to send this to our AD...
Dear Joe: You need too re-take the course on public comments about your coaches . Your comments about Coach G , The Texas job , lack of a profit in WBB ,etc. were a disgrace . Try this :
" Coach G is one of the nation's top coaches in Women's Basketball . She has really put our program at the top and she has done it with class. She's finally getting the recognition she deserves nationally and internationally.We are proud to have her as part of the Duke program and I intend to do everything I can to make sure she's happy at Duke and with us for years to come. "

Were I Coach G, your comments would not constitute a "ringing endorsement " of support.

killerleft

03-27-2007, 11:57 AM

Leave men's basketball out of this fight. Leave Coach K out, leave Dawkins out.

Alleva is responsible. He is the AD. I didn't take his statements about Coach G as some sort of proof that she will not be offered more money. I didn't think he gave her a ringing endorsement, either.

But Duke cannot afford to more or less force her out without making a strong effort to keep her.

Most of the rest of the sports year has been an absolute downer. To crown everything else that has happened with the absolutely huge mistake of letting Coach G go is not comprehensible.

She hasn't won a national title? How many tries did it take the men's program to finally get one? How many for Coach K? Duke will have to be even luckier than when we got Coach K to even hope to continue as a power of women's college basketball if we lose Gail Goestenkors.

Alleva should err on the high side of the salary scale if he errs at all. Duke has the money. Duke has evidently paid Coach G at a bargain basement rate for long enough.

Only my opinion, of course, and some counter-arguments can certainly be intelligently made. But I believe that most allumni and fans of Duke will rue the day that Coach G got away because we didn't make a good-faith offer in hopes that she will stay.

UncleBill

03-27-2007, 12:00 PM

I didn't say professors hate athletics, the previous poster said that and I was saying that wasn't true. In fact, one of the huge perks of teaching at Duke isn't living in Durham, it's enjoying the best big time sports of any school in the world.
I do not think that word means what you think it means. If you paraphrase me, please have the courtesy to be accurate.

Do you deny there are people, a vocal minority, who espouse the concept that Duke downgrades athletics and props up academics? I wrote no word on what their jobs are. Duke is building wonderful structures to support athletics, but the administration has not been all that supportive of the student atheletes or proactive in hiring and keeping coaches that win (aside from Coach K). Their actions, and inactions, lead to inferior teams. If there were a huge Alabama-style demand for winning teams, Alleva would be gone already, replaced by someone willing to buy and keep great coaches, but we do not have that alumni and fan demand screaming for someone's head if the football team loses three games, much less three year's worth of games.

bluedevil

03-27-2007, 12:50 PM

Are you talking about the same Duke administration that pays Dawkins about a million a year and 4 coaches more than coach G? Alleva said before hiring Roof that money wasn't an issue and Duke was willing to spend a million or more to hire the right coach, which makes sense since programs need to spend money to make money. And now we find out that instead of hiring a million dollar football coach that can compete in the ACC or paying G a decent wage, all the money for coaches is going to K and his assistants. K doesn't care and isn't even aware of any vocal minority, the president of the university and the board of trustees bow down to him and do his bidding.

Someone said Alleva is responsible and to leave mens basketball out. The athletic director might as well not even exist since he can't even tie his shoes unless K says it's okay. Does anyone think Alleva really WANTS pathetic football coaches that can't win a single game in 2-4 years coaching Duke forever, or wants to get rid of a beloved coach of a #1 program like G, when fans already wanted him fired years ago?? Think about it, does hiring losers like Franks and Roof then giving them raises, contract extensions, and guarantees after 2 straight winless seasons each, help or hurt Alleva's job security at Duke? Why does he keep doing things like this over and over and over again then, because he's in charge or following orders?

It's not like this is just a recent phenomenon or unique to Duke, why do basketball schools like Kentucky or Kansas or football schools like Nebraska or Virginia Tech suck at every other sport and never spend money to hire decent coaches in any other sports? K knows he can get a million a year for an assistant coach, so he can easily get a million a year for a national head coach of the year like G. Question is, will he or does he want to? Signs point to no.

It's the same pattern as football and baseball where a 2 time national coach of the year and Duke's winningest coach who built the program were fired for proven losers, why should womens basketball be any different? If anything, the womens basketball program should be even worse than football or baseball, that would certainly make K look a lot better by comparison. Plus that would free up money to offer K a $10 million raise the next time the NBA comes calling. Duke's turning into Kentucky.

g4orce

03-27-2007, 12:57 PM

I know that we are all unsure about what will happen with Coach G, but let’s step back a second…

Do I think that she is a great coach? Most definitely! Do I think that she will run a great program somewhere else (if she were to leave)? Again, yes. Do I think that she could have had such an amazing start at a different school as she has had here? I could say yes, but I wouldn’t be so sure. Why? Well, I think that being associated with Duke and Men’s bball had a lot to do with initial recruiting and the “fame” that could come for playing at Duke. I am NOT saying that she wouldn’t still be a winner. But I do think that it links the two programs, whether people like it or not.

To use Dawkins’ salary in this discussion, imho, is just to show the disparity between a head coach of a very successful program and the asst coach of a very successful program. If this were different schools, I don’t think the topic would come up. But it is not and therefore the comparison. To me, it really is apples and oranges but I can see why someone would bring it up.

To look at wbball as a barometer of monetary success, there are only a few programs that generate the kind of funds that pay $1M salaries – UCONN and Tenn of the top of my head. Both programs have had an amazing level of success but, unless I am wrong, it took many years to develop the fan base that they have now. Duke women, no matter how much money they may have lost in trying to develop, are at the same level as those two (and a few more) programs and DESERVE our support BOTH in FAN BASE and SALARY.

Fball probably breaks even, not b/c of fan base (which is a joke right now and I am a multiple season tix holder), but through the league dispensing of funds from the success of other fball programs – much like what Duke MBball does for other programs at Duke and throughout the league. I don’t remember the exact amount, but there was an article recently about why fans from other ACC schools shouldn’t be so happy that Duke lost in the first round b/c the resulting lack of dispensed funding from our success will hurt a lot of other programs (like volleyball at GT or horseshoes at NCSU). Why did Alleva extend Roof’s contract and give him a raise? I would bet that he acted on the belief expressed here and at other programs that consistency at a coaching position is crucial to the success of the program, and that revenues from other fball programs would help offset the raise. Just a hunch, no inside knowledge.

Now, back to Gail: Unfortunately, most of the women’s games at Cameron are virtually empty and the seats that are filled are either through student free seating or cheap tickets to the public. Heck, even the biggie games this year that sold out were to cheap tix prices. I doubt that those same people would’ve bought the tix if they were priced the same as if it were a men’s game. Sad, but true. So how do you counter that? By doing the same kind of promoting that they do for fball and mens bball pre-K. Promote the heck out of it and do your best to KEEP THE COACH.

Gail deserves all the credit and plaudits anyone can throw at her, as well as the $$$. Corporations pay top-$$$ for a CEO who can turn things around when they have no knowledge that the CEO they just hired can do so. It is a hunch based on prior success. We have a bona fide leader and continued success in Coach G and should pay to keep her. PERIOD.

Finally, ALLEVA: Get your head out of your butt and do the right thing! Stop drinking and boating and realize that you have a consistent Top 5 program and treat her/them that way. Giving her a vote of “no confidence” is simply a way of saying that you are an idiot.

vick

03-27-2007, 01:07 PM

It's not like this is just a recent phenomenon or unique to Duke, why do basketball schools like Kentucky or Kansas or football schools like Nebraska or Virginia Tech suck at every other sport and never spend money to hire decent coaches in any other sports?

Duke was eighth overall in the Directors' Cup standings (and this is without any contribution from men's lacrosse--very likely Duke would have been seventh had they completed the season). To say that we "suck" in "every other sport" is just flat-out wrong.

Look, I love the women's team--went to lots of games when I was there--but we have some real quality non-basketball women's teams with great coaches (field hockey, lacrosse, golf), so it make no sense to me to say that we're unwilling to even hire "decent" coaches in "any other sports."

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/0506D1FinalStand.pdf

bluedevil

03-27-2007, 01:17 PM

Duke is on the road to BECOMING Kentucky, it isn't there yet but well on its way. Just look at what's happening with the big 4 sports of football, baseball, and womens basketball. Current AD Alleva has done nothing but hire losing coaches then look for every excuse in the book to keep them around as long as possible before hiring even worse losers to replace them. All the winning coaches at Duke were hired by the previous AD Butters who hired K, G, womens golf and lacrosse coaches, etc. Associate AD Jacki Silar is in charge of womens sports and used to coach field hockey among other sports, and got a good field hockey coach Bozman to come to Duke, she could be a good interim AD because Alleva needs to be fired today or yesterday. Wake Forest AD Ron Wellman would be a fine replacement or the AD from Florida or Louisville or AD Geiger from Ohio State who built Stanford's athletic juggernaut.

sagegrouse

03-27-2007, 01:45 PM

Coach K had a winning season his frist year (lets give thanks once more to Dennard and Banks)

The second year the cupboard was bare, due to just missing on some fabulous players in 1981. Howsomever, K signed Dawkins (DC), Alarie (AZ), Bilas (LA, CA), and Henderson (NC) -- each the best player in his particular reason.

The third year the foundation was there, but the lads were freshmen and lost a lot of games. coach K received a new contract in December, even though a faction of the alumni grumbled.

Starting in 1983-1984, the team was off and running, finishing fourth in the ACC standings, IIRC, and defeating UNC and MJ on the way to the ACC finals and the NCAA tournament.

Sage Grouse

bluedevil

03-27-2007, 02:20 PM

What did I tell you? Many of these Duke fans aren't even aware any sports exist outside mens basketball. Just like Kentucky.

wilko

03-27-2007, 02:22 PM

Coach G has proved her mettle.
Shes doing her job QUITE well pay the lady! I think right now we need any positive we can take for stubborn Duke pride. Letting her go would be a mistake.

I dont get the Coach K runs the athletic dept. angle. Why would he want to? Some conspiracy to keep BBall front a center? pls... How do you make the center of the universe MORE centered? What Alleva DOES and how good he is at it; might be the subject of some debate.

I think its a matter of whats hes ALLOWED to do. Put it this way.... If Alleva made a 35 million dollar deal (or whatever it was) to bring in Butch Davis to Duke.... How long do you think Alleva would keep his Job? My guess is not very long.

Its not that Duke doesnt have the dollars to go get Jimmie Johnson (not the driver) if they wanted him. They got enuff to get whoever WANTS to coach.

I think somebody named Duke is telling him what he can and cant do.
Alleva is just a fall guy.

My uninformed opinion as a fan.

Clipsfan

03-27-2007, 02:39 PM

What is strangely missing from this entire debate is actual facts, other than the fact that Coach G is the 5th highest paid coach at Duke. Let me first state that I am incredibly happy that we have Coach G, and am delighted that she has lived up to (in my mind) the promise that she offered when she came from Purdue. She has built a powerhouse program which is filled with excellent student-athletes for whom I am proud to root.

Now, on to the facts. Does anyone actually know her salary? Including endorsements etc? How many women's basketball coaches actually make more than her? I've only heard two mentioned, and they both pack the arena throughout the season, something which Duke doesn't do. I'm not saying that the lack of attendance is Coach G's fault, but it does mean that there isn't as much revenue. What are the actual attendance figures? How many of those tickets cost more than $10 (or aren't free, even)?

I am a proponent of the free market system, and Coach G knew that she was building/had built a strong program two years ago when she signed her current contract. I would assume that she would not have signed it if she felt it was unfair. Forget the men's team, as they are not part of the equation (not anywhere near apples to apples). The market for her is as a coach of women's basketball, not men's.

killerleft

03-27-2007, 03:10 PM

All good points, Clipsfan.

We really don't know for sure if she is even considering leaving.

But I'm not sure that her worth to Duke is tied to the number of tickets sold. I'm certainly not a public relations expert, but it would at least seem that Duke receives a hefty return from all the positives that Coach G and her program bring.

Unrelated to your post, I certainly don't buy the "Coach K wants other programs to suck" line. From all I've ever heard and read, Coach K loves Duke and would be very happy if everything Duke hoped to accomplish campus-wide were successful.

mapei

03-27-2007, 03:13 PM

jjasper0729

03-27-2007, 03:17 PM

I wouldn't be so much concerned with nationally at first as opposed to how she compares to the rest of the ACC. Is she in the same league as Hatchell and Frese? What about with Yow? Those are three state schools that have to report their coaches' salaries. can someone list those and then maybe hopefully we could find out where G stack up with them.

I agree with everyone that G must stay... we need her to stay. I was there her first year and know she's done a helluva job. I don't want her to leave.

bill brill

03-27-2007, 03:22 PM

I don't know where trey wingo got his information from. my info is that it is way off base. I don't know what Coach G makes, but I'm told she's No. 2 at duke behind only K. and the salaries mentioned by some on this thread for the assistant coaches simply don't make sense. I'm sure they are, deservedly so, well compensated, but not to the extent some of you believe. when I saw the fifth highest, I couldn't imagine who they were. the suggestions here they are all basketball coaches. I simply don't believe it. I have been told gail makes more than brenda frese at maryland and bonnie hendrikson at kansas (hired at 750,000 two years ago. I certainly want her to stay.

jjasper0729

03-27-2007, 03:40 PM

Here's Frese:

In 2004, Yow signed Frese to a contract extension through 2010 that paid a base salary of $184,540
- Maryland Newsline

Here's Hatchell:

Hatchell's new contract is retroactive to July 1, 2005, and runs through June 30, 2011. Her base salary is $240,000 ($250,000 beginning on July 1, 2006, and $260,000 beginning on July 1, 2007). The contract also calls for an expense allowance of $30,000 per year and bonus clauses of 1/12 her annual salary should the team's student-athletes graduate equal to the rate of the general student body and for making the NCAA Tournament first round and regional final.
- tarholeblue.com

Here's Yow:
Yow's salary is $200,000
- N&O

Those figures do not include other income, such as basketball camps.

Both Yow and Hatchell are signed through 2010 and 2011, respectively. G should get an extension that puts her at least on par with Hatchell till at least 2012 imho.

bluedevil

03-27-2007, 03:52 PM

According to this article, Hendrickson makes $530,000, and some no name Fennelly at Iowa State just signed a lifetime 12 year contract worth $7-10.6 million.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070324/SPORTS020605/703240359/1003/RSS02

"Fennelly signs deal through 2018-19
By DAN JOHNSON
REGISTER STAFF WRITER

March 24, 2007
7 Comments

Iowa State has given what is essentially a lifetime contract to women's basketball coach Bill Fennelly.

The 12-year agreement signs Fennelly as coach through 2019, when he will be 62 years old.

"I've never heard of a 12-year commitment before," Fennelly said Friday. "I about fell out of my chair. I was honored and flattered and stunned by what they did. It says a lot about what our administration feels our players and staff have done."

The pact will be worth a guaranteed $7 million, an average of $583,000 per year, with another $3.6 million available in incentives.

Nationally, the richest contract is paid to Tennessee's Pat Summitt, who is in the first season of a six-year pact that pays $1.125 million this season and goes up to $1.5 million in 2011-12.

In the Big 12 Conference, Oklahoma's Sherri Coale has a $550,000 annual base contract while Kansas' Bonnie Hendrickson earns $530,000, according to reports."

Hey bill brill, who's feeding you your information? I guess a confidential source can tell you any lie they want to calm down the fans furious at Alleva and Duke. Did you hear that G makes more than Hendrickson's $530,000, or that G makes more than $750,000 per year? An insider on thedevilsden posted that G only makes $400,000 per year. Did you also hear the she has 2 years left on her insulting 4 year contract, any explanations for that? If G makes more than $530,000 or especially $750,000 then there should be no problem for Duke to pay up to keep G at Duke, actually there should be no problem for Duke to pay her no matter what G makes. Just make sure it's a lifetime contract.

Is K planning on making a statement of support for G, or is he trying to get her out so Duke so he can be the best basketball coach at Duke? Does K and Alleva want Duke to be just as successful in womens basketball as in football or baseball? Why is Alleva still at Duke after the drunk boating accident, lacrosse scandal, baseball steroid scandal, football and baseball coaching disasters, etc.?

gadzooks

03-27-2007, 04:07 PM

I can't find the article at the moment, but it's been reported that G is not on the list of the five highest-paid employees at Duke, the lowest of whom makes something like $530K. Jody Conradt was making $540K at Texas, so G's paycheck would definitely go up, possibly significantly, if she took the job there.

SoCalDukeFan

03-27-2007, 04:22 PM

non-revenue sports at Duke?

I want Duke to try to excel at everything it does. However if it takes more than $400,000 for a coach of a sport that loses $2,000,000 a year, then I wonder if its worth it.

SoCal

ChrisP

03-27-2007, 04:57 PM

We all know Alleva has made nothing but bad decisions. He fired a two time national football coach of the year to hire Franks, then Roof, both inexperienced and pathetic losers who got raises, contract extensions, and guarantees after 2 straight winless seasons.

As a season ticket holder for Football games, I too have been frustrated at the lack of on-field progress, but bluedevil, your comments are WAY out of line! I was no fan of Carl Franks as a coach, but let's not forget, he's a Duke guy and it's not HIS fault that he was given a job he probably wasn't ready for. If someone came along and offered you the CEO position at GE at X million per year, you'd turn it down, right? I agree that the fault lies with Alleva and I'm becoming increasingly frustrated by his job performance, but to call Franks and Roof "pathetic losers" is just totally uncalled for and rude. I've met Ted Roof and he's a good guy who really wants to win. Whether or not he can get it done at Duke remains to be seen. I expect to see progress this year in terms of the W-L record and if it doesn't happen, sadly, I think it'll be time to make a change. But, let's not forget, big name coaches weren't exactly beating a path to Duke's door the last time the job was open. I realize that this thread was started with the intent to discuss Coach G's situation, but let's keep the discussion civil, ok?

g4orce

03-27-2007, 04:58 PM

I started thinking about how much we lost last year for wbball and how other schools compare. WOW.

I inadvertantly closed my browser so I can't post the link right now; however, according to what I read, only two schools in the Women's sweet 16 made a profit last year.

UCONN (just under 1M)
Tenn ($45K)

Arguably the two most successful women's programs in the nation only brought in that much, and that includes ticket sales, concessions and marketing tie-ins. WOW. Are you kidding me???

Here is one link: can't find the other
http://www.heraldsun.com/sports/18-832580.cfm

So, we lost 2M last year for the sport. How much does Fball lose before the league dispenses ad and bowl revenues? If UCONN and TENN can "barely" make a profit with all of their success, how can we not support G regardless of how much "they" bring in?

Let's be honest: Duke has enough money to cover the tab. It is all in how the admin decides to distribute it. ;) If Alleve doesn't see the value in keeping her, then he is absolutely nuts.

imagepro

03-27-2007, 04:59 PM

Who is he? Dukes Swim coach. He came here 2 seasons ago from Tennessee. Vols have a strong swim program in the SEC with high NCAA title expectations.

Dan has a great reputation, is a super guy and works MANY MANY hours. YEAR round. Watch our swim team move up. He's making progress already. I brought him up because this thread is about coaches salaries. I know Dan. A HARD WORKING, committed guy and a class act. I bet you'd be stunned at what he makes. NOT ENOUGH, I can tell ya that. I know, it's a non-rev sport, but I'm just saying...

Anyway, watch Duke swimming over the next 5 years or so. We may not get to the b-ball, lax, soccer and golf team levels, but we're already making BIG strides and bringing in HIGH quality student-athletes. GO DUKE Swimming!

g4orce

03-27-2007, 05:06 PM

ChrisP

I agree with you about keeping it civil, and the argument about accepting a CEO job is spot-on. I think that they (Goldsmith, Franks, Roof) are good guys who, very unfortunately, experienced the reality that was Duke fball. Academic exceptions, facilities, etc... helped contribute to the situation and I think that they felt the results of that.

I personally think Roof has an opportunity to do something special, and the admin seems to have made some adjustments, but the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I hate chalking up $$$, time and beautiful Sat afternoons watching us lose. I keep going thinking that "this just might be the day. This just might be the day."

Back to wbball: if we can support Roof, then we should support G. Period!

throatybeard

03-27-2007, 05:07 PM

This thread has way too much negativity.

Agreed. Please could everyone tone down the contentiousness a little bit. Thanks.

A-Tex Devil

03-27-2007, 06:13 PM

I've attempted to read most of this thread, but I'm not certain bluedevil isn't a parody poster. I apologize profusely if you aren't, but man are you dropping some hooks with some big juicy worms for people to bite on.

It's simple really. UT will likely offer Coach G more money than Duke is willing to pay simply because their athletic department has more money and their women's team actually has a great tradition and a pretty big fan base. I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that Duke will come back with a competitive offer that puts Coach G up there with the top 5 coaches not named Summit and Auriemma. She deserves that much.

At that point, Coach G will have to make a tough decision. And barring Duke stepping up and actually matching Texas, I can understand her going in either direction.

TwoDukeTattoos

03-27-2007, 06:47 PM

According to the AP, Alleva has approved Texas's request to speak with Coach G.

throatybeard

03-27-2007, 07:23 PM

Thanks for the update, 2DukeTats.

I've retitled this thread "Coach G Employment Thread." Let's use this thread for updates as long as everything's up in the air.

dukie8

03-27-2007, 07:40 PM

bluedevil, your posts are inflammatory, factually incorrect, lacking most key facts and borderline libelous. first off, why are you dragging dawkins into this? what he makes as the #1 asst to k on a team that makes millions of dollars every year for the school is completely irrelevant with respect to what coach g should make -- particularly when she coaches a team that LOST over $2 million last year. irrespective of that, this $1 million comp that you so insouciantly toss around for dawkins is 100% wrong. i posted this article last week:

http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2007/03/20/News/Would.Coach.G.Leave.Duke-2782112.shtml

from it, you can determine that coach g makes less $533K. how much less? nobody knows. it could be $532K or it could be $100K. moreover, i am assuming that since dawkins's name never has been listed as one of the other 4 (k's name is all over the internet as one of the top 5), he also is less than $533K. unless you can provide a source that says he is at $1MM (and the IRS 990 will have the information), i consider your comments about dawkins to be completely out of line.

with that being said, i think that it is ridiculous that people are on here arguing that duke should just open up the checkbook for her and match whatever any other school will offer no matter how offmarket it is. very few people on here want to admit it on here but the fact of that matter is that very very few people actually care about women's college basketball. so much so that duke, undefeated and #1 for months this year, couldn't even attract 5,000 people to show up to cis to watch them (and most of them either didn't pay or got cheap seats). it doesn't get any better than this year and a measly few thousand people showed up for the games. what's going to happen when the team isn't number 1 and undefeated? my guess is that they are going to lose even more than $2 million. it also has come out that the ncaat for women is financially such a disaster that the ncaa doesn't pay a cent to the schools that make it or even to the winner. women's basketball is no different than soccer, golf, tennis or any other non-revenue sport -- it just tries to ride the coat-tails of the money machine aka men's basketball. i don't see anyone jumping up and down calling for the swimming or track coaches to be paid out at $1 million a year and the women's track team has been every bit as successful as the women's basketball team the last several years.

so what should coach g be paid? by all accounts, she is a great coach and represents the school very well. this article lays out a lot of comps:

http://www.heraldsun.com/sports/18-832580.cfm

UNC's Hatchell -- $250K
N.C. State's Yow -- $200K
Maryland's Brenda Frese -- $300K

that sounds about right. coach g isn't in the same stratosphere as summitt and geno, who each have multiple ncs and run their programs for a profit. the fact that some state school wants to completely overpay for her doesn't mean that duke should be that stupid in the same way that the mariners rightly didn't match the rangers' silly contract offered to arod several years ago.

i also think that this article is particularly telling in what some men's coaches DON'T make (as in anywhere near $1 million):

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/cpid/568.htm

should boeheim go on strike until his $377K gets raised? should skinner leave because $592K is too little for a coach who get to the tournament and wins at least a game what seems like every season? i will say that those 2 are worth much much more than what coach g is worth to duke and i don't see their fans up in arms.

bluedevil, if you have an axe to grind with alleva, there is plenty of other fodder to work with than besmirking all of duke's athletics and blatantly making up figures to argue for duke to pay coach g a king's ransom.

throatybeard

03-27-2007, 07:42 PM

Dukie8-- remember that most people are talking about K's total compensation, not his base. Most of these big-time college coaches have compensation packages much higher than their salary.

dukie8

03-27-2007, 07:52 PM

Dukie8-- remember that most people are talking about K's total compensation, not his base. Most of these big-time college coaches have compensation packages much higher than their salary.

yes, but the fact that k makes a lot from nike, the camps and from speaking doesn't cost duke anything. if she can burn up the speaking circuit, sign a big shoe deal and make money off camps, then that is fantastic and duke isn't paying it.

heyman25

03-27-2007, 08:09 PM

:rolleyes: If we can keep Coach G I am for it. She has a great program.But sometimes new blood can be good. After losing to Rutgers, you wonder if any G coached teams will break the curse of March in the NCAA's. Rutgers is going to the Final 4. UCONN is gone. Everything was falling into place for Duke. They couldn't hold a lead just like they did with Maryland a year ago. Duke may be in the mix a year from now. But the psyche job they do on themselves every year is bizarre. They lose 2 great players, but everyone else is coming back will have improved and they have a top 5 recruiting class and they are in contention for Elena della Donne the next Candace Parker in skill level.Its too bad Duke can't get a fanbase like Tennesee or UCONN,because they are just as good.However both Pat and Geno have won championships and Gail has been denied again.

siestadogz

03-27-2007, 08:28 PM

I hope Coach G remains at Duke. She is a good fit and has take a once weak program to lofty heights. The only complaint is that she has not one a national championship. It took the men's program a few tries to break through as well. Attendance while not great is increasing.
I am concerned with the ad's initial announcement. Contrast that with the president of the u of Fla. announcing that the school was going to keep Donovan. Particulars can be worked out later, and if not, fans know the school did their best.

beachdevil

03-27-2007, 08:51 PM

wxyz

03-27-2007, 09:43 PM

I would be much more interested in knowing how G's salary compares to the coaches of the top 10 women's basketball coaches in the country than how it compares to the men's program. These are different markets and can't be compared directly.

Obviously, Geno and Summitt must be at the top, and they have certainly earned it. But how does G compare to the rest? To the other ACC coaches? I would think she should be paid fairly well with reference to *that* market.

The pertinent issue is how her salary and support at Duke compared to whatever she is being offered at Texas.

Other coaches at Duke and other ACC schools are mostly immaterial. G is not a person who came from or is commited to the ACC.

throatybeard

03-27-2007, 09:51 PM

You're worth what somebody else is willing to pay you. Period.

bird

03-27-2007, 10:16 PM

Spoke to somebody who knows. Coach G flew to Austin this morning (March 27) and has plans to remain for 3 days. Most likely flying from Austin to NCAA convention at Final Four. Sounds like she's gone.

Announcers in Carolina/Purdue game say G's move to Texas is all but a done deal. My household is divided, and wondering who Duke can get as a replacement. My vote: Boyles at Cal.

JStuart

03-27-2007, 11:47 PM

If Duke allows her to take the Texas job, then we absolutely need to fire Alleva and get a competent AD. Coach G has no negatives, the program she has built is a wonderful one, and she has brought nothing but good PR and fine quality players. Compare her to Hatchell at UNC, Geno at UConn, or Summitt at Tennessee: which would you rather have? Why on earth would anyone not try to keep her? What downside is there?
This would be the most foolish, absolutely dumbest move Duke has made in its entire sports history. If she does go, as implied by the ESPN announcers, any explanation by the Duke AD would be an attempt to justify utter incompetence. I see nothing good coming out of this whole sequence of events.

bluedevil

03-28-2007, 12:05 AM

It appears the info in my original post was correct. A Tennessee fan posted on thedevilsden that a female reporter on ESPN just confirmed what Trey Wingo reported and went even further, that G is paid less than 5 other coaches at Duke, which would make her the 6th highest paid coach at Duke. Also, according to coreyo34 who has over 8000 posts on thedevilsden and I believe is a womens board moderator, and camerncrz74 who is the ultimate womens program insider and I think is also a moderator, they've known for a fact long before Trey Wingo reported it on ESPN that G makes less than K, Dawkins, and Roof, which would make her 4th, 5th, or 6th highest paid at Duke depending on what Wojo and Collins make.

Also, Coach G has said herself in newspapers that she only has 2 years left on a paltry 4 year contract, while the likes of Franks and Roof each started with 5 year contracts then got raises, contract extensions and guarantees after they each had 2 straight winless seasons. Bill Brill said a source told him that G makes more than Hendrickson at Kansas who reportedly makes $530,000 although Brill claimed it was $750,000, but numerous newspapers have reported that G makes substantially less than the $540,000 that Conradt made at Texas, and a longtime thedevilsden insider said she made $400,000 which seems more reasonable based on what we know. It could even be less than $400,000 because I think Roof makes less than that, and multiple insiders say they know for a fact that G makes less than Roof.

John Watson, owner of thedevilsden, obviously has tons of contacts and insider information, so when he says a Duke assistant makes more than twice what G makes, there's no reason to doubt him, especially given the confirmations about Dawkins and others from so many others. Plus many on this thread seem to acknowledge that Dawkins makes a ton of money, partly from running Duke's basketball camp, and that K made sure his assistants got big raises when the Lakers came calling a few years ago. K himself may only make a few million a year from Duke but the NY Times wrote that K makes several million a year outside of Duke giving speeches to corporations, making endorsements and commercials, Nike contract, writing books, his XM radio and TV coaching shows, etc. Does K only make money from Nike for the basketball program or is K the only one at Duke that gets paid from Nike, how much does the university get from Nike for the rest of its sports programs?

ESPN seems to think it's a done deal that G is going to Texas. Could that have anything to do with the fact that she's only the 5th or 6th highest paid coach at Duke and has only 2 years left on a pathetic 4 year contract? Or that an assistant coach supposedly makes more than twice as much, and the football coach who hasn't won a div.IA game in 2 years makes more and has more years on his contract and has been guaranteed at least 2 more years of losing millions for Duke even if he has 4 straight winless seasons? Could anybody in their right mind blame G for leaving for a million a year and respect?

Question, is Duke disrespecting coach G with just 2 years left on a 4 year contract when even the incredibly inept football coaches get 5 year deals and K gets a lifetime contract and even the likes of the Iowa State womens coach gets 12 years at up to $1 million a year? Because being 5th or 6th highest paid at Duke, making less than half what an assistant makes, being given such a strangely short term contract, and having public statements made by AD Alleva that Duke can't afford to pay to keep a coach of a program that loses money, all that doesn't seem to add up to a lost of respect does it? For the national coach of the year? With the paltry 4 year contract and tiny salary, have they been pushing her to leave for a long time? Why? She seems like a nice well liked person. Does anyone at Duke want her gone?

G is interviewing with Texas already and could be gone within hours, does anybody here care or have any power to change that? Is Duke just going to lose all its top coaches and just pay for mens basketball and that's it? How can Duke afford Dawkins and its top 4 paid coaches but not G?

Kewlswim

03-28-2007, 12:11 AM

Hi,

I don't want Coach G to leave. I hope she remembers that both it is not all about money and the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fense. However, if she is gone and it sounds like (from what I read on here) ESPN thinks she is gone then let's think of the positives. The truth is she couldn't get a championship here. It does not mean she wouldn't, but she didn't get one. A new coach might be able to with the players coming into the program. Maybe we will endup with a better coach--hard to believe, but we might! Coach Boyle has turned around the Cal program from one that was dead in the water. She is a Dukie. Perhaps she is the missing piece to an NCAA championship. Maybe Coach G wins one, or not, elsewhere and Coach Boyle comes back home and wins some over here?

GO DUKE!

gep

03-28-2007, 12:24 AM

I hope she remembers that both it is not all about money and the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fense. GO DUKE!

First off, I'm not the best Duke WBB fan and don't really know much about WBB at Duke, but I am a Duke fan and do care that Duke WBB does well. I've tried to read everything in this thread... and I don't think I found a real sense that anyone really knows what Coach G has gone through with the AD, athletic dept, and Duke admin. Maybe, behind the scenes, this has been brewing since the last couple of years, or more, and that Coach G was going to start looking around anyway. My only "fact" is the apparently short contract that everyone mentions. If so, maybe the grass is not really green on this side to begin with. Just a thought...

ricks68

03-28-2007, 12:58 AM

Am I out of line, here, or did someone a few days ago mention that coach G had split from her husband? If that is true, maybe her leaving has something to do with that, mostly, and may not necessarily involve only the money? I would think that the split may not be true, or it would have been mentioned again. Yes or no?

ricks

SoCalDukeFan

03-28-2007, 01:36 AM

I really do not know what Duke should be paying a women's basketball coach. If she is getting $400k and the program is losing $2.0 Million then I assume paying her $900K means the program will lose $2.5 Million. Neither sits well with me.

However Coach G has done a great job. I would think that after reaching the NC game last year a competent AD would have redone her contract.

If you feel disrespected and a school like Texas offers you a lot more money, then I think you go. I hope she stays. I also have no confidence in Alleva to make a great hire.

Grey Devil

03-28-2007, 01:55 AM

I hope Alleva (and anybody else who's involved in making the decision about keeping Coach G) reads this column by Graham Hayes on the ESPN women's basketball page:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/ncaatourney07/news/story?id=2810904

I particularly liked this line about G: "She wins with class and loses with dignity. And that affects far more people than those in Duke jerseys." To me, that's more important than her spectacular winning percentage, whether she's won any NCs, or how many Coach of the Year awards she's won. She is a classy individual and deserves the best. I just hope she thinks the best for her is at Duke. (And it would be nice if Alleva and the Duke administration can find a way to convince her of that!)

Grey Devil

adam

03-28-2007, 02:22 AM

Remember the "There's no K in LA" shirts? We need to have new ones made... "There's no G in Texas".

Sadly, I'm guessing Texas is willing to pay her a lot more "G's" than Duke. And because of that, Duke might just lose the best coach in all of women's basketball.

Uncle Drew

03-28-2007, 02:35 AM

Am I out of line, here, or did someone a few days ago mention that coach G had split from her husband?

Yes that rumor is true, Coach G and her hubby split a while back. He was a coach at nearby Elon and father of former NCSU player (and transfer) Adam Simmons. Frankly I don't see what a divorce has to do with anything. If Coach G has some problem and needs space from her ex that's what restraining orders are for.

You're worth what somebody else is willing to pay you. Period.

Does anyone here truly believe that is all they themselves are worth? We are only worth what some employer is willing to pay us? I agree that womens basketball does not and probably never will pull in money anywhere near the level the mens sports (particularly mens basketball) does. I've often wondered why they don't make adjustments (such as lowering the goal to 9 feet) to make the game more exciting. They don't even have to get the ball past half court until the shot clock is running down as it is so what's a few more adjustments. She needs to be paid as much if not a little more than any ACC womens coach, but I can see without a national championship (yet) how her pay could be at a level slightly below that of UNC & MD's women coaches.

All of these posts have been rather on the negative side, but let me state for the record I hope coach G stays and I think she is just a national championship waiting to happen. It will be ironic if Kay Yows words, "what is delayed is not denied" said to Coach G turns out to be a championship (or multiple championships) for Texas. She exudes class and is a strong female role model for women at Duke and through out the state. And lets face it, compared to Hatchel she looks like a freakin' super model. Geno Auriemma looks like he needs to make a guest appearance on the Soprannos and Pat Summit reminds me an aged former soviet bloc athlete suffering the consequences of years of steroid abuse. With Coach G there are no negatives. Okay I can't spell her last name either, but I've been dealing with that since Coach K arrived.

As far as Dawkins pay, I can defend that for the mere fact he is the only assistant on the bench with NBA experience. Not only does that factor in when many recruits are loking at a coaching staff, but he has connections in the NBA he can contact when a player is deciding whether or not to go pro. (Whether McRoberts et. al decide to listen is another question.) Coach Roof hasn't won a Division I game in two years, true. But the constant turn over since Spurrier left is one of the main reasons the football team is in the state it is in. The state school down the road with money flowing in from boosters and alums can afford to pay Butch Davis a huge salary that despite what a lot of people think Duke couldn't afford to match if they wanted to. Well they probably could if they raised tuition for all students to 80K per year, and I'm sure the parents sending their kids to Duke would love that. And I have no idea what the new lacrosse coach is making, but to be under the scrutiny he'll be under this year they'd have to pay me an obscene amount of cash.

The thing that has irritated me reading all these posts (though some valid points they do make) is how the posters have turned on other members of the Duke family to justify their claims. Throw Aleva under the bus, fine with me. If nothing else he could use some sensitivity training and work on his oratory skills. His comments concerning Coach G were idiotic and at the very least unsensitive. But Duke does have a budget. And as an institution of MUCH higher learning I can't fault any of the powers that be for trying to pay and get the best professors they can as opposed to winning championships in any sport. God only knows what the university spent on legal council durring the LAX affair. Again I hope Coach G stays, but it may not be responsible to try and match any sallary she is offered.

TwoDukeTattoos

03-28-2007, 06:42 AM

Just seconds before one of the commercial breaks during the NC/Perdue game last night, one of the commentators said that G had permission to speak to Texas and that "it looks like a done deal". She never elaborated on her comments and never mentioned it again. So, maybe she simply meant that the offer itself was a done deal. But she may have been implying that G's acceptance is a done deal as well, which is seeming likely. Quite sad, if this comes to pass.

NYC Duke Fan

03-28-2007, 07:18 AM

How in God's name could Duke allow a coach who single handily built a program into one of the most elite programs in women'a college basketball be allowed to leave.Unless Pat Summit has already committed to come to Duke, this would rank as one of the most idiotic athletic decsions ever at Duke.

While this is pure wild speculation try it on for size. Everybody knows that Coach K is a great supporter of Alleva and I'm sure that if he said to Alleva," what are you you nuts, pay her what she's worth and make sure she stays", Alleva would find the neccessary funds to do it. However, in recent years, the women's basketball program has been as successful or even more successful than the men's. Women's basketball will never supplant the men's at Duke, that is obvious, but maybe Coach K is not putting his two cents in because of the above. I know that it might be a crazy supposition, but crazier things have been posted here before.

I don't know if Coach K attended the games in Greensboro, but it would seem to me that after Duke was eliminated, both he and Alleva should show their support to the women, especially since the games were played in a nearby venue.

Anyway..KEEP COACH G..PAY HER WHAT SHE IS WORTH !!!!

ItalianDevil

03-28-2007, 07:43 AM

+1. Coach G built alone the women's program. Mr. Alleva open your purse !!!

jjasper0729

03-28-2007, 08:47 AM

I can understand if Duke can't come up with $800K+ to keep Coach G. Simple financial logisitcs say it may not be possible. Duke has an athletics budget about 60% to that of Texas (I believe DU is ~$50Mil compared to UT at ~$84Mil). However, there is no reason to think that G shouldn't be the best compensated coach in this league, and if not that, at least one of the top two.

In 1992, the women's team was not very good at all. She took her lumps for three years and then the breakthrough came with the Alabama NCAA game (4 OTs). Duke needs to do all that is possible to show gratitude and respect for someone that has established this program the same way Geno did at UConn. Granted, UConn has 5 titles, but G is right on the cusp.

It took Coach K 5 trips to the Final Four before he got his first. G has 4.

jjasper0729

03-28-2007, 09:01 AM

In 1997, I had a former women's team coach of Duke (then at another university) tell me that the athletic department brass (Butters at the time, as well as Alleva) didn't hold any of the women's teams in very high regard. This is why this particular coach moved on.

I KNOW that Duke would suffer greatly if Coach G were to depart for Texas. The fact that the program doesn't make money for Duke is irrelevant at this point (per the ESPN piece by Hayes). Duke needs to show some love for the women's programs (all of them) and it should start with its highest profile team.

Coach G came in and got the program turned around in three short years. After that, it's been like a steamroller. They should give her an extension to at least 2012 to show her they want her to stay and they should open up the wallet to get her into the mid-six-figures at least.

That being said, then the marketing department needs to get on the ball and get the revenue turned around. The big obstacle as I see it is the glut of teams in the area. Tennessee and UConn turn profits, but they are well established without very much competition for fans, if any at all, as well as state schools.

The status quo in the athletic department needs to be tossed out the window and all programs need to get the respect they deserve.

Coach G should be at Duke a-la Summit at UT and Geno at UConn. It would be HER program. She has built it and she wouldn't have to be following someone else that has a hall of fame record/career at the school.

A-Tex Devil

03-28-2007, 12:06 PM

And I can't blame Coach G for leaving, or Duke for not matching Texas. I am sure that Coach G deserves a raise and I am confident that Duke would be willing to bump her salary, but possibly not to the level of Texas.

While G has done a masterful job recruiting at Duke, the potential at Texas is even greater. Except for the gym, Texas has much much much better facilities and an established women's basketball program and fanbase going back to the '70s.

Plus, while football rules the day in Austin, money is poured into every D1 sport at a rate that probably outpaces any school but maybe Stanford.

Texas was toe to toe with Tennessee on the WCB map until some nasty recruiting really hurt them in the early '90s. Conradt got them back to a final four recently, but honestly, she's been past her prime for a while. It truly is a sleeping giant where Coach G would never have to worry about funds or getting paid competitively.

All this being said, I hope she stays at Duke. She's the "mother" of this program. K can't even say that about the men's program -- as we had some pretty good years before he got to Duke. But if she goes, I'll certainly understand.

feldspar

03-28-2007, 12:17 PM

Sometimes, you're just not the higher bidder.

jjasper0729

03-28-2007, 12:19 PM

Sometimes, you're just not the higher bidder.

I can agree with that. However, the athletic department needs to fight the fight worth fighting regardless. I just don't see any public statements other than by fans/alumni who are doing it. Maybe they can't, but I haven't seen anything other than Alleva saying it's up to Gail. Not exactly fighting the fight worth fighting.

throatybeard

03-28-2007, 01:13 PM

ESPN WBB front page has a poll on whether Coach Goestenkors will go to Texas. Yes is leading No 64-36, but there are only 750 votes so far.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/womenbb/index

ikiru36

03-28-2007, 02:19 PM

There are a number of contended facts that really need to be verified before a meaningful discussion can be had re: whether Duke is offering Coach G reasonable compensation. From what I've read in the various posts, it sounds as if Coach G does have the highest Women's BB salary in the ACC at around $400,000 per year. Quite simply, if the other ACC women's coaches (two of whom have won NCAA championships since 2000) all get paid less than $400,000, what is Coach G worth?

I love Coach G and believe her value to Duke goes far beyond simple wins and losses (at which, I believe, she has been the most successful in the nation since 2000), and it goes beyond ticket sales as well. But if Hatchell and Frese make less than $400,000, it seems as if Coach G can hardly claim "disrespect" at all as regards salary. (Now, Alleva commenting in the manner which he did, about the Coach of a #1 team entering the NCAA tournament, did strike me as unnecessary, stupidly worded and potentially disrespectful.)

Just saying that under the circumstances of what seems to be valid figures re: other coaches contracts, and taking regional support for W B-Ball into account, one could argue for Duke offering Coach G a serious contract extension beginning at, say, $600,000/year. If Duke offers Coach G something in the neighborhood of that then they will have unquestionably made a "respectful" good faith effort, whatever Texas may offer and whereever Coach G chooses to be.

[On another point, I really couldn't care less what ESPN has "confirmed" unless you are quoting me a specific list of salaries with which I can do my own comparisons of relative value. I have seen variously claimed in this thread that Coach G is the 5th highest paid employee at Duke and separately, that she is the 5th highest paid coach at Duke (with an assistant men's coach paid more in base salary than her). Until we know which of these is true, there can't begin to be an honest evaluation.]

Basically, we'll see and it certainly seems possible Coach G might leave. But to be bashing Duke before we even know what they were willing to offer definitely seems baiting to me. In general, I hope that Duke is making every reasonable effort to convince Coach G of her value to the institution, including a willingness to re-negotiate her contract. But, if so, that seems to me all they can reasonably do.

Please stay, Coach G (and I hope we compensate you appropriately)!

wxyz

03-28-2007, 02:19 PM

wxyz

03-28-2007, 02:35 PM

bluey

03-28-2007, 04:46 PM

AUSTIN, Texas -- Duke women's basketball coach Gail Goestenkors visited the Texas campus Wednesday to interview for the Longhorns' opening, but said she did not expect to make a quick decision on whether to leave the Blue Devils.

"It's going to take some time," Goestenkors told The Associated Press as she walked from the Texas athletic department offices toward the football complex.

"I have to go back and talk to my people [at Duke]," she said, without offering whether she was leaning toward taking over the Longhorns or staying at Duke, where she built a national power and has a 396-99 record in 15 seasons.

the rest...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/news/story?id=2816181

Kewlswim

03-28-2007, 05:07 PM

Hi,

Do the Iron Dukes have the ability to add money to the Coach's salary or is that against NCAA regulations?

GO DUKE!

Kewlswim

03-28-2007, 05:11 PM

Hi,

If she is going to leave, Duke is going to need to put together a search team, etc. to find a new coach. I don't want us to lose recruits. Thus, I would like this to be a somewhat quick decision so that the Duke brass can get together and find a replacement.

GO DUKE!

throatybeard

03-28-2007, 06:33 PM

"I have to go back and talk to my people [at Duke]," she said, without offering whether she was leaning toward taking over the Longhorns or staying at Duke, where she built a national power and has a 396-99 record in 15 seasons.

Well, at least that's less discouraging than what's issuing from Alleva.

Maybe he's cleverer than we think. Make public statements that make it sound like you don't care if she leaves, sandbagging essentially. UT offers her less than they might otherwise would have. We match and everybody feels good. Alleva can use her offer at Texas to justify paying her more.

Of course, we know that you know that we know that...

arnie

03-28-2007, 10:05 PM

Throatybeard,

I certainly hope Alleva is"cleverer" that we think he is. I have to assume "G" is gone - if so, has anyone at Duke put together a short list of coaches to interview? Someone needs to help Alleva with this, just don't know if the administration wants to get that involved.

bluedevil

03-29-2007, 04:46 AM

Duke football loses $2 million per year, and coaches like Franks and Roof can't win a single game in 2 years, but they make more money than national coach of the year Goestenkors and have more years on their contract even before they're hired, then get raises, contract extensions, and guarantees immediately following those 2 straight winless seasons. Why does Alleva wants losers like Franks, Roof, Hillier, and McNally to stick around forever but is so eager to get rid of a #1 coach with the best win percentage of any mens or womens ACC coach?

Revenues

Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Basketball $12,199,195 $646,937 $12,846,132
Football $8,381,452 $8,381,452
Total Revenues of all Sports, except football and basketball, combined $331,527 $197,897 $529,424
Total Revenues $20,912,174 $844,834 $21,757,008
Not allocated by gender/sport $28,749,477
Grand Total $50,506,485

Expenses

Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Basketball $8,133,188 $2,817,662 $10,950,850
Football $10,052,697 $10,052,697
Total Expenses of all Sports, except football and basketball, combined $4,187,035 $6,893,247 $11,080,282
Total Expenses $22,372,920 $9,710,909 $32,083,829
Not allocated by gender $17,718,217
Grand Total Expenses $49,802,046

adam

03-29-2007, 01:35 PM

Here's an article from The Chronicle yesterday about Coach G...
http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/m...-2809260.shtml

And here's one from today (also in The Chronicle) that talks about the rally tonight...
http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/m...puarstoriestab

Go Duke!!!

b&l

03-29-2007, 03:56 PM

I attended Duke basketball games as a student in the 1960's, and after a long absense from the area we both began going to Duke games again in the early 1990's.
Reflected against the Duke hoops of the past, both the men's and women's programs have gone flat. On the men's side, the element of passion has departed. Teams of recent years have come across as increasingly robotic. It's become something like an iron man competition, rather than a sport played for the joy of it. Even the games we used to watch on tv we usually turn off, because there is simply no fun in it. It's become even painful to watch a bunch of talented but totally tensed up kids making mistake after mistake. Vaguely reminding of kids desperately trying to get affirmation from a parent. The life that makes for great games has been sucked out of the program.
Unfortunately, something of this seems to have spilled over into the women's program. Even after the team had won more than twenty straight games there was Coach G on tv and in the newspapers saying over and over again there was a lot of room for improvement. What is wrong with celebrating a team that was the only undefeated one in the country, and saying daily they were an incredible bunch of kids? Where this failing joy in the sport hit us particularly was in the NCAA finals last year. There was the Maryland coach, even with her team down, laughing, yipping it up with them, and guess what, they pulled off the victory. Win or lose, in that last five minutes and overtime, that Maryland team was more fun to watch.
We agree with those who observe that Duke hoops gets more talent than almost any teams in the country, but don't derive the best from these kids. If it's winning fans want, winners never doubt for a moment they can win, and coaches make sure that is what is in their heads. Winners have a joy in bringing what it takes to win, and that joy spills over to the spectators. Where did the joy go that was once in the floor slapping, "we're going to get you" Duke teams?
With Coach G considering a move to Texas, it has us wondering whether she even has the positive belief within her to produce champions? She's never, despite loads of talent, molded a team that just knew it couldn't be denied an NCAA championship. And by all respect for the long tenure and successes of Coach K, his teams have become so one-dimensional and predictable, with the aforementioned lack of positive belief in themselves. Given the same talent levels of recents years, it makes one wonder what a Donovan, Huggins or numerous other passionate coaches could have done, and at the same time made that passion a joy to behold for the fans?
Finally, in general there's been too much doom and gloom surrounding Duke. One knows this isn't the essence of Duke, that it stands for a lot of pretty fantastic and wonderful things, academically and otherwise. Hoops has always been, and could remain, a wonderfully PR opportunity to show the world how vital and full of life and joy a college program can be. Will it take an infusion of new blood to get it there? Good question.
B&L

RPS

03-29-2007, 04:30 PM

1. Talk about revenue generation and WBB is relevant but far from the whole story. From the university's POV, sports is all about branding, marketing and recruiting (though not the type of recruiting we usually talk about here). It's no coincidence that Duke's rise up the various college rankings largely took place as the MBB program became more consistently successful. Athletic success increases the number and quality of applicants. Accordingly, WBB success (and the exposure and publicity it brings) has a significant value beyond revenues. It's much more important than other non-revenue sports simply because it's on ESPN so much.

2. I hope that my perception is dead-wrong, but it appears as though our current AD is making no significant effort to keep G. Indeed, it isn't much of a stretch to read his statements as a less-than-ringing endorsement of G's program and accomplishments. I see no PR reason whatsoever for saying anything other than G is fabulous and we will do everything we can to keep her, no matter what Alleva thinks he can or should do as it relates to G's job status and contract.

3. I'd pay what the market requires to keep G. In my view, having the college basketball franchise for both men and women should be our goal.

wxyz

03-29-2007, 08:18 PM

...
Finally, in general there's been too much doom and gloom surrounding Duke. One knows this isn't the essence of Duke, that it stands for a lot of pretty fantastic and wonderful things, academically and otherwise. Hoops has always been, and could remain, a wonderfully PR opportunity to show the world how vital and full of life and joy a college program can be. Will it take an infusion of new blood to get it there? Good question.
B&L

You have sized things up about right -- the old optimism is pretty much gone. In part that is because it is depressing when your students are improperly indicted, the case is always in the news, the conflicts are never resolved, but numerous "cultural" conflicts emerge out of it. Then there have been a lot of individual disappointments such as no one wanting to be the graduation speaker. Right now there is a tremendous amount of internal acrimony flowing in all directions among students, faculty, and administration. Life has downs as well as ups, so right now people are doing the best they can just hunkering down and hanging on. Maybe things will get better.

JStuart

03-29-2007, 08:47 PM

2. I hope that my perception is dead-wrong, but it appears as though our current AD is making no significant effort to keep G. Indeed, it isn't much of a stretch to read his statements as a less-than-ringing endorsement of G's program and accomplishments. I see no PR reason whatsoever for saying anything other than G is fabulous and we will do everything we can to keep her, no matter what Alleva thinks he can or should do as it relates to G's job status and contract.

3. I'd pay what the market requires to keep G. In my view, having the college basketball franchise for both men and women should be our goal.

I couldn't have said it much better. How embarassing is it for Duke University to be represented by Alleva, who can't say even the standard boilerplate comments an AD is supposed to do? He's talking about the number one ranked Women's basketball coach in the country, for crying out loud. This isn't Steve Spurrier leaving for the 'big leagues'; we ARE the big leagues in basketball.

Also, when it seems that everything Duke is a target for the haters out there, have you heard any of them rip Coach G or the women? I sure haven't. That says a great deal to me.
Send Alleva to Texas; Keep Gail

killerleft

03-30-2007, 10:47 AM

It would be so disappointing to find out that Duke didn't put up a great fight to keep Gail Goestenkors. Maybe they're fighting pretty hard, who knows?

gadzooks

03-30-2007, 06:54 PM

Great Mechelle Voepel column (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/columns/story?columnist=voepel_mechelle&id=2818754) about Coach G and how hard her decision probably is.

wxyz

03-30-2007, 10:03 PM

An ad in the Chronicle for 3/30 congratulated G for many wonderful accomplishments at Duke, and it included a list of names. It did not say "please stay" or anything like that. There is no doubt that the ad was placed by people closely connected to G. A question is whether it was an encouragement to stay at Duke, or some kind of valedictory.

jtelander

03-31-2007, 06:19 AM

JStuart

03-31-2007, 08:21 AM

Maybe she has to think a bit about whether to keep Alleva!

After all, AD's are a dime a dozen, but a championship coach; those are much harder to find.

william e king

03-31-2007, 09:51 AM

To those of us old timers the current wait concerning Coach Goestenkors decision is very reminiscent of the similar "dead period" when Bill Foster left the men's program. There were alternate moods of optimism and pessimism and a growing awareness that the sports writers we turned to really did not know anything either. This is a personal and institutional decision and we as fans have to wait.
By happenstance I walked through the basketball office area and Cameron the day Foster packed up. It was one of the more depressing feelings I had on Duke campus but look at how things turned out with that change. I don't want a change in the women's program but realize that patience is required now and however decisions work out.

BCGroup

03-31-2007, 12:23 PM

http://www.newsobserver.com/736/story/559491.html

gadzooks

03-31-2007, 12:55 PM

According to this story in the Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com/sports/18-834749.cfm) Gail met with Alleva yesterday before leaving for Cleveland.

I fear that that yesterday would have been the day to announce she is staying. An announcement after receiving the Coach Of The Year Award seems likely to favor Texas.I don't know, I could see her saying she'll stay at Duke right after being honored for her work there. And of course she'd talk to Alleva before making her decision, so I don't see that as indicating anything one way or the other. I still have my fingers crossed.

duke2x

03-31-2007, 02:55 PM

To those of us old timers the current wait concerning Coach Goestenkors decision is very reminiscent of the similar "dead period" when Bill Foster left the men's program. There were alternate moods of optimism and pessimism and a growing awareness that the sports writers we turned to really did not know anything either. This is a personal and institutional decision and we as fans have to wait. Excellent analysis. I don't think you can read anything into G's actions one way or another. The meeting with Alleva and delay is a negotiating ploy with both schools.

johnb

03-31-2007, 04:14 PM

I would like G to stay. I would like Alleva to retire.

I don't think G handled the final week of the season very well and wonder whether the Texas talk distracted her players.

G's a great coach, but she hasn't earned the salaries that are earned by the coaches who have made Tennessee and Connecticut the pinnacle of the sport.

Last I checked, Texas has almost almost 50,000 students, a big interest in nonrevenue sports, and roughly a gazillion local alumni who could potentially show up for games. On the other hand, there's a reason that they call them nonrevenue sports.

It's silly to compare her salary to that of K, Dawkins or to that of the men's football coach. They live in different worlds.

We'd do just as well to compare her salary to that of a professor in the comp lit department, where G would be seen as being paid like a queen.

wxyz

03-31-2007, 06:22 PM

Excellent analysis. I don't think you can read anything into G's actions one way or another. The meeting with Alleva and delay is a negotiating ploy with both schools.

G is going to events that in some cases will feature people on this year's Duke team, and people close to them. She would not want to announce a departure before those events, most likely, as she would rather attend as "their" coach. If she is going to leave, she might want to tell them privately first. So the delay is a negative sign, but then again maybe she is just taking some time to think things over, or still negotiating.

If she leaves, it will be a big change for her, too.

Kewlswim

04-01-2007, 12:59 AM

Hi,

The Blue Devils have three very good recruits coming next year. From all I have heard they still intend on matriculating at Duke, Coach G or no Coach G. The team should be very good. How will Coach G feel if that team went all the way, under another Head Coach, and won the National Championship next season? I think she would be happy for the team knowing she helped build it. However, the celebration would most likely not include Coach G. In fact, Coach G would be an outsider looking in--something that would be very painful. If Coach G leaves, she will need to emotionally break the bonds with Duke because if the Devils get, for example, Coach Boyle from Cal or another really good coach they might be able to consummate a championship run they couldn't with Coach G at the helm. Remember, Coach Foster left and the men's team did OK. :p (I am not insinuating the next Coach will be as successful as Coach K, I am just saying that sometimes the next coach isn't as bad as people think. S/he sometimes is. The football team still hasn't recovered from the loss of Coach Spurrier. So, it is possible the women's basketball team, if Coach G leaves, won't recover for many years to come too.)

Furthermore, and I think this is really regretful, if Duke goes on to win two or three NCAA Championships with another coach, people will begin to ask, "Why couldn't she have left sooner?" The truth is Coach G built Duke women's basketball. I guess that is the way sports are though.

GO DUKE!

dukestheheat

04-01-2007, 09:04 AM

everybody,

based on the fact she has NOT taken the job yet, I believe that she's going to stay. my prediction. you know what they say about opinions and predictions.....

dth.

ricks68

04-01-2007, 10:27 AM

I live in Texas. Football, now and forever, will always be King. When I went to NO a few years ago for the men's FF when Texas was in it, the Texas section was the only section with MANY empty seats. G will not have the same fan support she gets at Duke, no matter how good her record is, or how many students are there.

ricks

throatybeard

04-01-2007, 11:00 AM

That may be the case, but their resources for non and semi-revenue sports excel ours in every way. I was floored when I found out they've got a whole nother AD for women's sports.

3rdgenDukie

04-01-2007, 11:14 AM

With Coach G considering a move to Texas, it has us wondering whether she even has the positive belief within her to produce champions? She's never, despite loads of talent, molded a team that just knew it couldn't be denied an NCAA championship. And by all respect for the long tenure and successes of Coach K, his teams have become so one-dimensional and predictable, with the aforementioned lack of positive belief in themselves. Given the same talent levels of recents years, it makes one wonder what a Donovan, Huggins or numerous other passionate coaches could have done, and at the same time made that passion a joy to behold for the fans?B&L

Sorry, I just don't get this. I don't believe there is such thing as a team that knew it couldn't be denied a NC. Remember the UT team with a senior Holdsclaw that had already won 3 straight titles? Did they 'know they couldn't be denied' before Gail beat them? Or UNLV is '01? The only time any team should ever 'know it can't be denied and NC' is when they are receiving the trophy on the podium. Gail's teams have come excrutiatingly close to this several times, and I believe if she stays they will get it done.

As for K and what Donovan would do with his teams - people have very short memories. Prior to the past two years, when he lucked into this particularly cohesive, unheralded group, several of whom would have gone elsewhere if offered, Donovan was considered the biggest choker is the sport. He had lost in the first or second round for 4-5 straight years despite VERY talented rosters, had a fair number of transfers, had teammates who didn't like each other, and many were wondering if he really was the level of coach the hype suggested. He is now the flavor of the month.

Kewlswim

04-01-2007, 01:59 PM

Hi,

Off of the linked article on the main page, the last paragraph states:

"It's been pretty stressful," [Coach G] said. "They're both unbelievable institutions -- great academics, great athletics as well. And people -- it's about the people."

If it is about the people, I don't know if the Duke AD treated her with respect until his back was against the wall. I like Jacki Silar though and hopefully she has smoothed any rough edges. Golly, it is times like these, even though he annoyed me at times too, that I wish Mr. Butters was in charge of athletics.

When Mr. Butters spoke to a team, he made it sound like that team and its members were incredibly important to the success of Duke. His back didn't need to be against the wall for him to do so. I do wish he wouldn't have always mentioned about his playing baseball, though that is just a nit. Mr. Butters said nice things about me too, so I will always be grateful for that and probably a good deal biased because those comments made me feel good. I don't know Mr. Alleva all that well, he seemed like a nice guy though.

GO DUKE!