Best PG in Duke history

[em0526]

I don't know of this has been submitted already, but check out this highlight video of the best PG in Duke history.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5ynom_bobby-hurley_sport

[davekay1971]

I don't know of this has been submitted already, but check out this highlight video of the best PG in Duke history.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5ynom_bobby-hurley_sport

This brings a question to mind - Duke has had many excellent point guards, but is Hurley unquestionably the best, or can arguments be made for others who have run the rock? Jay Will (though more often a SG once Duhon arrived)? Tommy Amaker? Will Avery (alas, we hardly knew ye)?

Before I get slaughtered, I want to clarify that IMHO Hurley is the best to run the point for the Best Blue, and one of the all time great college PGs nationwide.

[allenmurray]

Of all the point guards Duke has had only one has led the team to back-to-back national championships.

[hurleyfor3]

I will accept arguments in favor of Dick Groat... that's about it.

[gus]

This brings a question to mind - Duke has had many excellent point guards, but is Hurley unquestionably the best, or can arguments be made for others who have run the rock? Jay Will (though more often a SG once Duhon arrived)? Tommy Amaker? Will Avery (alas, we hardly knew ye)?

I've never seen Groat play, and Amaker only in highlights. But I don't see how anyone who's seen Hurley in his prime can argue that there is better point guard.

[jv001]

Bobby Hurley was not only the best PG at Duke. He may have been the best in college basketball. True point guard skills, shooting, passing and playing great defense. He's # 1 and Tommy Amaker probably a distant # 2. I thought that Dick Groat played shooting guard. Before my time. I bet Jim knows. He knows everything about Duke University.

[Black Mambo]

I'm as a big a Hurley fan as any (I remeber being in 7th grade and buying my "Hurley...thanks for the memories" t-shirt while on campus as a summer program). But was he really better than say Mark Price, or Chris Corchiani? If he swapped roles with either of those two, would they then be possibly the greatest college PG of all time?

[hurleyfor3]

I'm as a big a Hurley fan as any (I remeber being in 7th grade and buying my "Hurley...thanks for the memories" t-shirt while on campus as a summer program). But was he really better than say Mark Price, or Chris Corchiani? If he swapped roles with either of those two, would they then be possibly the greatest college PG of all time?

Better than Corch and about as good as Price. Price was a better shooter: Hurley largely hit shots because he was left open. I would put Hurley below one of his contemporaries: Kenny Anderson. Anderson would probably have the assist record (playing at Tech) had he stayed four years. But I think he is the only point guard about whom you can say this!

Hurley wasn't by any means perfect. But to buy into Hurley is to love him for his imperfections.

[brevity]

I would put Hurley below one of his contemporaries: Kenny Anderson. Anderson would probably have the assist record (playing at Tech) had he stayed four years.

Sure, if Brian Oliver and Dennis Scott had enough eligibility to stay with him those 4 years. Otherwise, no. Amazing numbers overall, but not the assist record.

[RelativeWays]

I came of age as a Duke fan with Hurley at the point, no question who my pick is.

[Son of Mojo]

Much as I liked Duhon, Williams, and Amaker (who I only got to see some of), Bobby was the best at Duke I've ever seen and I still say the best PURE point guard ever. People I know bring up Anderson, Price, Corchiani, and....ugh Ford just in ACC talk though all made names nationally. All were extremely good but in terms of running the offense, distributing the ball, creating the fast break, playing defense, and hitting the shots when called upon (not shooting first like you could say for Anderson and Price instead of passing second) who can you say is better based upon that criteria?

[dukemomLA]

Hurley, Hurley, Hurley. No question. I LOVE most of the other guys, but Bobby Hurley as a TRUE POINT GUARD matches up with most PGs of any era and of any conference.

If I made a list of the top 20 college point guards of all time, Hurley would be on that list.

[terrih]

Yeah, didn't take me anytime at all to come to the conclusion that it was Hurley. Oh the memories of watching him play!

[concrete]

Jason Williams is the best "pg" I've seen at Duke. Perfect pick n roll execution. The only down side was his FT's...he could have easily been a back-to-back-to-back champion. Remember he left his junior year and if it wasn't for bad ft's against Indiana we might have won that year.

[BlueintheFace]

It depends on what "best" means. If best means most talented, I will argue until the day I die that Jason Williams is the most talented player Duke has ever had. BUT, if "best" is a broader concept that incorporates fire, heart, leadership, a knack for winning etc... then Hurley is your man.

Watching hurley makes me wonder, Who was the first Duke player to slap the floor (or Duke team)? Does anyone know?

FUN FACT: That video was created by Mickie Krzyzewski for Hurley's Senior Dinner after his last season.

[dukestheheat]

I felt totally comfortable with Hurley at the PG spot; it's just one of those things you kind of 'feel' when it comes to watching the team. His game relaxed everyone except his opponent. He made the team play with swagger and confidence.

I can't imagine having to dribble the ball against him.

And this is a great time to give a SHOUT OUT to the best Duke player NOLAN SMITH!

dth.

[em0526]

Is there a place to view all of the senior videos that Mrs. K has put together for the Senior Dinners?

[dukemomLA]

I agree, GO NOLAN SMITH. And on another note, wasn't Wojo the slap - the - floor champ of all time? Ah....not too much longer 'til BB season, but....isn't it grand to have a football team of which to be proud? Cool.

[BlueintheFace]

BETTER QUESTION: who is the best pg of all time in ncaa basketball? who are the contenders?

[jimsumner]

"Of all the point guards Duke has had only one has led the team to back-to-back national championships."

So, Thomas Hill is the best shooting guard in Duke history? :)

Comparing Hurley and Williams is apples and oranges. Hurley is the best "pure" PG in Duke history, IMO, but you can make a case for the more hybrid skills of JWill.

Comparing Hurley to Groat is comparing apples and pomegrantes. Groat averaged 25/26 ppg his last two years but he had beaucoups of assists, also. I'm not sure the concept of point guard and wing guard really existed in the early 1950s. Even Cousy shot a lot and he may be the best playmaker who ever lived.

If forced to choose the best ACC PG, I would probably opt for Phil Ford. If you're old enough to remember him, you know what I'm talking about. If you're not, then hold those cards and letters.

[Indoor66]

"Of all the point guards Duke has had only one has led the team to back-to-back national championships."

So, Thomas Hill is the best shooting guard in Duke history? :)

Comparing Hurley and Williams is apples and oranges. Hurley is the best "pure" PG in Duke history, IMO, but you can make a case for the more hybrid skills of JWill.

Comparing Hurley to Groat is comparing apples and pomegrantes. Groat averaged 25/26 ppg his last two years but he had beaucoups of assists, also. I'm not sure the concept of point guard and wing guard really existed in the early 1950s. Even Cousy shot a lot and he may be the best playmaker who ever lived.

If forced to choose the best ACC PG, I would probably opt for Phil Ford. If you're old enough to remember him, you know what I'm talking about. If you're not, then hold those cards and letters.

I will not argue with you about Ford, but I will interject that he benefitted greatly from one of the great travesties foisted on college basketball, to wit: the four corners of Dean. I wonder how great Ford would have been without that gimmick that was used for his entire career.

[jimsumner]

Without the four corners, Phil Ford would still have been the best PG in ACC history. I have no doubt about that. Look at what he did in the NBA before his subtance abuse problems got the upper hand.

UNC averaged 78.0, 85.1, 83.6, and 81.1 ppg during Ford's four seasons. Without a shot clock, without a three-point shot. Some slowdown, eh?

The four corners wasn't fundamentally different from the late-game strategies of any college basketball coach in the country, Bill Foster and Mike Krzyzewski included. UNC was just better at it, in part because of Ford's skill and intelligence. Want to stop the four corners? Easy. Force some turnovers. But nobody could force turnovers with Ford in control. Because he was that good.

[hurleyfor3]

The topic is "best point guard in DUKE history".

Why why why why WHY do you people insist on changing the subject in order to talk about how great a unc player is?

[jv001]

"Of all the point guards Duke has had only one has led the team to back-to-back national championships."

So, Thomas Hill is the best shooting guard in Duke history? :)

Comparing Hurley and Williams is apples and oranges. Hurley is the best "pure" PG in Duke history, IMO, but you can make a case for the more hybrid skills of JWill.

Comparing Hurley to Groat is comparing apples and pomegrantes. Groat averaged 25/26 ppg his last two years but he had beaucoups of assists, also. I'm not sure the concept of point guard and wing guard really existed in the early 1950s. Even Cousy shot a lot and he may be the best playmaker who ever lived.

If forced to choose the best ACC PG, I would probably opt for Phil Ford. If you're old enough to remember him, you know what I'm talking about. If you're not, then hold those cards and letters.

Jim you're probably correct in that Phil Ford may have been the best PG in the ACC. But even with his obvious talent, he may not have been that much better than Bob Hurley. Man that was hard to say. I also forgot about Bob Cousy. Now that man had point guard and shooting guard skills.

[devildownunder]

This brings a question to mind - Duke has had many excellent point guards, but is Hurley unquestionably the best, or can arguments be made for others who have run the rock? Jay Will (though more often a SG once Duhon arrived)? Tommy Amaker? Will Avery (alas, we hardly knew ye)?

Before I get slaughtered, I want to clarify that IMHO Hurley is the best to run the point for the Best Blue, and one of the all time great college PGs nationwide.


It's Hurley. No doubt. Jason Williams would at least be in the conversation had he not spent so many big minutes playing the 2. Duhon would be able to sit at the table for a little while, at least, had he played his entire career at the level he displayed late in his freshman year and throughout his senior season.

However, those things didn't happen.

[davekay1971]

The topic is "best point guard in DUKE history".

Why why why why WHY do you people insist on changing the subject in order to talk about how great a unc player is?

Amen, Halleluja. I respect the attitude around here that we should recognize greatness even when it comes from the Dump on the Hump. But if I want to read or hear (ad nauseum) about how incredible and wonderful the 'Holes are, I can read the Charlotte papers, or submit to Charlotte sports talk radio.

[jimsumner]

How can we discuss the greatness of Duke without discussing the greatness or lack thereof of the other 350 teams that play college basketball? Or, to put it another way, a discussion of Duke greatness without context is simply empty self-congratulation. So why would a discussion of Hurley's merits versus those of Williams or Amaker or Duhon be appropriate but a discussion of Hurley's merits versus those of Phil Ford, Mark Price, John Lucas, or Kenny Anderson not be appropriate?

This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.

And, if you're not comfortable with the concept of message-board-threads veering in new directions, then you might want to find less frustrating ways of spending your discretionary time. 'cause it's probably not going to stop happening anytime soon.

[BlueintheFace]

How can we discuss the greatness of Duke without discussing the greatness or lack thereof of the other 350 teams that play college basketball? Or, to put it another way, a discussion of Duke greatness without context is simply empty self-congratulation. So why would a discussion of Hurley's merits versus those of Williams or Amaker or Duhon be appropriate but a discussion of Hurley's merits versus those of Phil Ford, Mark Price, John Lucas, or Kenny Anderson not be appropriate?

This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.

And, if you're not comfortable with the concept of message-board-threads veering in new directions, then you might want to find less frustrating ways of spending your discretionary time. 'cause it's probably not going to stop happening anytime soon.

completely agreed! once we all make our incredibly bold announcements (presumably Dawkins, Hurley or Williams) then we should ask ourselves, "Now what makes them the best in Duke History?" and "where do they fit in the rankings of NCAA history as the best pg ever at one of the best programs in the NCAA?" These are relevant conversations.

[Jarhead]

I will accept arguments in favor of Dick Groat... that's about it.
Thanks for mentioning Dick Groat. I was there. I watched him from those same seats that the crazies stand on today. He was phenomenal in every respect on the court. He was a true point guard who could shoot, and control tempo, and defend, and lead. His game changed the way we play basketball. He was the first, that I saw, to take a jump shot. Until he came along all outside shots were set shots, impossible to do off the dribble. IIRC, the next person to use the jump shot was a year or more after Groat. Maybe Bill Brill can shed some light on this.

The fact remains that Groat was Duke's greatest PG, but I'd have to agree that Bobby Hurley was just as good. Hurley's advantage would be the 2 national championships that his team won. There is a reason that Groat was the first to have his number in the rafters. He set the standard.

[Edouble]

Jason Williams would at least be in the conversation had he not spent so many big minutes playing the 2.

He played the point during the big minutes. Although Duhon was "officially" moved the the PG spot to get his confidence up a little during Jason's third and final year in Durham, Chris would inevidably regress back to a subordinate role during crunch time. Jason brought the ball up and did most of the playmaking when it counted during his junior year.

[roywhite]

A little late to this discussion of Hurley vs Ford, but my ACC viewing goes back 40+ years, so at least I pass the age test. :)

Ford was the better scorer by a fair margin (career avg. of 18+ ppg, while Hurley had 12+ ppg), but Hurley has an edge in assists (approx. 6.1 apg for Ford, and 7.6 apg for Hurley). Both were exceptional ball handlers; Ford ran the 4 corners to perfection, but Hurley was virtually impossible to press. Defensive ability?---don't have stats handy, but Hurley was such a good on-the-ball defender, probably a slight edge to Hurley.

Definite edge in team achievement and NCAA tournament play to Hurley. Point Guard is a position where team wins are the most important stat. Obviously Hurley had other great players that helped win championships, but Ford had great talent around him also (4 UNC players on the 1976 Olympic team). Two NCAA championships and one runner-up for Hurley; one runner-up position for Ford.

Pro stats are irrelevant in this discussion IMO. As a college player, I'd give a slight edge to Bobby Hurley.

[Classof06]

Jason Williams is the best "pg" I've seen at Duke. Perfect pick n roll execution. The only down side was his FT's...he could have easily been a back-to-back-to-back champion. Remember he left his junior year and if it wasn't for bad ft's against Indiana we might have won that year.

I'll co-sign this. The only relevant question to me is whether or not, for the purposes of this discussion, we're going to classify JWill as a PG. If so, then that's my final answer.

[Edouble]

I'll co-sign this. The only relevant question to me is whether or not, for the purposes of this discussion, we're going to classify JWill as a PG. If so, then that's my final answer.

Yes, because he played point guard, he will be classified as a point guard for this and all future discussions.

[Inonehand]

Bobby Hurley. Hands down. On the floor.

[hq2]

Seen 'em all for more than the past forty years; totally agree with previous post.

[elvis14]

Sign me into the Hurley camp as well. He ran the offense, pressured the ball on D, and he had that knack for hitting a shot when it really mattered. He was guy that killed a teams spirit with a big 3 just when they started have hope. Loved the way he grew up his 4 years at Duke.

J-Will was a great combo guard. I have high hopes for Nolan.

[g_olaf]

He's # 1 and Tommy Amaker probably a distant # 2.

I give Amaker #1. Reason? Turnovers. Bobby used to drive me crazy with his turnovers, (averaged 3.8 turnovers a game throughout his career). As a freshman it was ~4.4 a game). Amaker, especially his sophomore and junior season did such a great job of protecting the ball (sophomore season 2.1 TO/game, in 86' he had 2.4 TO/game). Not as many assists as Bobby, but had a higher assist/TO ratio.

Bottom line, when you have fantastic scorers like Dawkins in 86, or Laettner and Hill, you don't need to get fancy with the rock. Just get them the ball and get out of the way.

[BobbyFan]

I give Amaker #1. Reason? Turnovers. Bobby used to drive me crazy with his turnovers, (averaged 3.8 turnovers a game throughout his career). As a freshman it was ~4.4 a game). Amaker, especially his sophomore and junior season did such a great job of protecting the ball (sophomore season 2.1 TO/game, in 86' he had 2.4 TO/game). Not as many assists as Bobby, but had a higher assist/TO ratio.

Bottom line, when you have fantastic scorers like Dawkins in 86, or Laettner and Hill, you don't need to get fancy with the rock. Just get them the ball and get out of the way.

If you feel that Hurley didn't need to get fancy and just had to get "fantastic scorers" like Laettner and Hill the ball and get out of the way, then I have no idea what you were watching.

[Edouble]

I give Amaker #1.

So is your all-time Duke team Amaker, Ewing, Price, Horvath, and Bilas?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

It depends on what "best" means. If best means most talented, I will argue until the day I die that Jason Williams is the most talented player Duke has ever had. BUT, if "best" is a broader concept that incorporates fire, heart, leadership, a knack for winning etc... then Hurley is your man.

Watching hurley makes me wonder, Who was the first Duke player to slap the floor (or Duke team)? Does anyone know?

FUN FACT: That video was created by Mickie Krzyzewski for Hurley's Senior Dinner after his last season.

Slapping the floor began while Vic Bubas was the head coach.

[g_olaf]

If you feel that Hurley didn't need to get fancy and just had to get "fantastic scorers" like Laettner and Hill the ball and get out of the way, then I have no idea what you were watching.

Look, I'm not dumping on Hurley at all. He hit clutch shots, he could thread a needle with the basketball, and he played fantastic defense. I'm just saying that because of his high turnover rate, he made me feel anxious... especially when he would fly down into the lane and whip a pass over his shoulder to someone.

[BobbyFan]

Look, I'm not dumping on Hurley at all. He hit clutch shots, he could thread a needle with the basketball, and he played fantastic defense. I'm just saying that because of his high turnover rate, he made me feel anxious... especially when he would fly down into the lane and whip a pass over his shoulder to someone.

And because of that anxiousness, you would take Amaker over him? Sorry, I still don't understand this.

[TriGuy]

I would tend to agree with Hurley as the best PG.

But to throw out another name for "Who's Number Two", I haven't seen Steve Vacendak's name mentioned. One of the smoothest ball handlers I remember seeing and (as far as I know) the only player ever to make ACC POY while NOT making 1st team All-ACC (not sure how that happened, obviously the voting rules were different in 1966).

Just my $0.02 worth.

[devildownunder]

He played the point during the big minutes. Although Duhon was "officially" moved the the PG spot to get his confidence up a little during Jason's third and final year in Durham, Chris would inevidably regress back to a subordinate role during crunch time. Jason brought the ball up and did most of the playmaking when it counted during his junior year.


I was actually talking much more about his sophomore year but, really, Williams was always a combo guard. He was the 1 but the game had evolved to where the 1 could be played in a different way. And because of that, probably, it was easy for him to slide over to the 2 from time to time, not handle the ball as much, and contribute in a different way. For that reason, it's sort of difficult to compare him with Hurley. I do agree with the point others have made that Williams had the most raw athletic talent of the two but there are some things Hurley did better, nonetheless.

Can we start them both?

[davekay1971]

I was actually talking much more about his sophomore year but, really, Williams was always a combo guard. He was the 1 but the game had evolved to where the 1 could be played in a different way. And because of that, probably, it was easy for him to slide over to the 2 from time to time, not handle the ball as much, and contribute in a different way. For that reason, it's sort of difficult to compare him with Hurley. I do agree with the point others have made that Williams had the most raw athletic talent of the two but there are some things Hurley did better, nonetheless.

Can we start them both?

"Hurley drives the lane, draws the defense, and dishes out to Williams on the perimeter...THREE!"

It would be too unfair.

[jv001]

Slapping the floor began while Vic Bubas was the head coach.

I did not know that or just don't remember that slapping the floor began with Vic Bubas' teams. If that happened it probably was Vacendek or Billerman that started it.

[jimsumner]

Billerman did not play for Bubas.

I do not recall floor-slapping during the Bubas era. Can't say for sure that it never happened but it sure wasn't common.

I think of this as a K-era phenomena.

[jv001]

Billerman did not play for Bubas.

I do not recall floor-slapping during the Bubas era. Can't say for sure that it never happened but it sure wasn't common.

I think of this as a K-era phenomena.

Like I said my memory is not as clear as it once was "Billerman did not play for Bubas". Who was the coach during Billerman's playing days?

[Indoor66]

Like I said my memory is not as clear as it once was "Billerman did not play for Bubas". Who was the coach during Billerman's playing days?

That was the Waters-McGeachy-Foster era.

[jv001]

That was the Waters-McGeachy-Foster era.

Thanks for that info. Go Duke!

[jimsumner]

Billerman was a classmate of Bob Fleischer, Pete Kramer, and Bill Suk. They played for the last freshman team, played one varsity season for Waters, the one with McGeachy, and Foster's first.

In other words, they ended freshman ball, ended Waters' Duke-coaching career, started and ended McGeachy's Duke head-coaching career, and started Foster's Duke career. Not bad for four years.

FWIW, Fleischer is a urologist, Kramer and Suk are lawyers, and Billerman is coaching at Ravenscroft. Kramer has a daughter who plays soccer at Duke.

[jv001]

Billerman was a classmate of Bob Fleischer, Pete Kramer, and Bill Suk. They played for the last freshman team, played one varsity season for Waters, the one with McGeachy, and Foster's first.

In other words, they ended freshman ball, ended Waters' Duke-coaching career, started and ended McGeachy's Duke head-coaching career, and started Foster's Duke career. Not bad for four years.

FWIW, Fleischer is a urologist, Kramer and Suk are lawyers, and Billerman is coaching at Ravenscroft. Kramer has a daughter who plays soccer at Duke.

Jim isn't Billerman the Duke player that crashed the unc huddle during a timeout? Caused quite a stir if I remember correctly. And thanks for the information.

[mgtr]

Based on all the info I have, I say Hurley, Hurley, Hurley. Then again, I started watching Duke BB during the Hurley era, which probably colors my view. JWill was great, we were lucky to have him, but not a true point guard, as others have pointed out. I probably enjoyed JWill ball more than Hurley ball, but both were a joy to behold. It is a dirty shame that both of these guys had their careers effectively ended by tragic accidents. However, we, along with many others, will remember the greatness.

[jimsumner]

I think Jason Williams was a different kind of point guard than Hurley but I'm not convinced he wasn't a true point guard. The man averaged 6.0 assists per game for his career.

Let me throw out a name that no one has mentioned. Injuries and illnesses preclude this player from being considered among the career greats but for a season and half Tate Armstrong played at an exceptionally high level. He was a PG in the Groat, JWill category. In 1976 he averaged 24.2 ppg but he also led the team with 4.4 apg. The following year he averaged 22.7 ppg and a team-leading 4 apg before breaking his wrist in mid-season.

Foster would have loved to have moved him off the ball but he just didn't have that luxury. After Billerman graduated in 1975 and Kenny Young didn't develop, Foster just didn't have any other options. Tate carried an incredible burden in '76 and '77 and carried it well but because the team struggled, his contributions have largely been forgotten.

And Steve Vacendak was pretty good. I would take him over Amaker or Duhon.