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allenmurray
09-13-2008, 07:48 PM
So can the concession stand improvements.
So can the luxury boxes.
So can lowering the field.
So can removing the track.
So can fixing the parking situation.

There is something else that must come first. Improve the EMS services.

Midway through the second quarter an elderly man two rows in front of me slumped over and passed out. Fans sprung into action, getting him laid out on a bleacher, getting his clothes loosened. Getting some water and ice. A doctor seated near by came to help. People called for the EMS service. Three minutes later two police officers arrived. Another two minutes later two more police officers arrived. After NINE minutes two EMS folks arrived, but they had neither a defibrillator nor oxygen. After another three minutes two more EMS workers arrived with a defib and oxygen.

Fortunately it was a case of heat stroke. Had it been a heart attack the man would have been dead. There is no excuse for the lack of decent EMS services at any event where 25,000 people are gathered. I wasn't seated in some far outpost, but at the fifty yard line 23 rows up from the field. We could have gotten a couple of strong guys and carried the guy to the hospital in the time it took EMS to get there (well, that might be an exageration, but we could have gotten him to the stadium gate and to an ambulance). Of course, there were four EMS workers on the field, not fifty yards in front of us, but they never came. Instead, two workers, apparantly summoned from a galaxy far, far away, were called instead. It was frightening, and could have ended a lot worse than it did.

doctorhook
09-13-2008, 07:55 PM
Allenmurray,

I certainly understand your point, however, I think the sheer number of incidents like you described overwhelmed the number of EMS units at the game. While walking to the bathroom I saw four separate teams working on four patients. I realize the heat was expected, but not the number of vasovagal/heat induced events.

killerleft
09-13-2008, 08:16 PM
The EMS vehicle lights were flashing from the 2nd quarter on, it looked like. I can't really speak to their efficiency, but they were busy.

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-13-2008, 08:17 PM
Allenmurray,

I certainly understand your point, however, I think the sheer number of incidents like you described overwhelmed the number of EMS units at the game. While walking to the bathroom I saw four separate teams working on four patients. I realize the heat was expected, but not the number of vasovagal/heat induced events.

The frequency and severity of the heat related incidents today went beyond any previous game in memory (30+ years). The aluminum benches throughout seem to reflect the hot sunlight and make the stadium seem even hotter than it was years ago with the original wooden ones. (The wooden ones hid their own peril. The splinters were exceptional.)

I vote for more night games..... at least until the end of daylight savings time!!

allenmurray
09-13-2008, 08:18 PM
Allenmurray,

I certainly understand your point, however, I think the sheer number of incidents like you described overwhelmed the number of EMS units at the game. While walking to the bathroom I saw four separate teams working on four patients. I realize the heat was expected, but not the number of vasovagal/heat induced events.

You make a very fair point, from what I have since heard folks were dropping left and right. OTOH, given the weather forecast, that fact that anyone who has ever been to WW knows there is NO shade at noon, and the fact that the place is a large concrete bowl, perhaps having a few more units on hand, (or even some Red Cross volunteers if no more paid EMS units were available) would have been wise.

Also, this is a great reason to stop having noon games in mid-September at WW. Mid-September in Durham rivals mid-July many palces in the US. ESPNU coverge is fun, but not at the expense of serious injury or death.

CathyCA
09-13-2008, 08:19 PM
I was two rows behind you, Allen, and I, too, was shocked at the lack of response on the part of EMS or Duke University. I could not believe the amount of time it took for the EMS to arrive. When I saw the uniformed police officers arriving (Durham PD), I thought that maybe help was on its way. But, no. Those people stood by and simply watched.

When the first wave of EMS arrived (and had the man suffered a heart attack, he would have already been dead by then), I thought that perhaps he would finally get the help he needed.

When the second wave of EMS arrived with their equipment, the gentleman sat up. Do you think that EMS or the Durham PD would have summoned a stretcher or some type of wheelchair to use to escort the ailing gentleman from the stadium? Reasonable people might think yes.

The second wave of EMS responders made the ailing gentleman climb the steps out of the stadium!!!

Was this a lawsuit waiting to happen? You'd better believe that it was. I couldn't believe the exposure that Duke University had to a claim of negligence today.

When the EMS hadn't arrived after 2 minutes, I began taking pictures to document the situation. I was frightened and concerned that this man wasn't getting the help that he needed. I decided to record the events on my camera to help him and his family prove their case. My camera was recording the minutes that passed and also the non-action of the Durham Police Department and the Duke University EMS.

My goodness, Duke University was just lucky today. I was astonished at the lack of response to a true emergency in the stands.

Thankfully, the fans in the stands were able to provide shade and water, simple first aid.

I believe that most people have a reasonable expectation that when they sit below the building emblazoned with "Duke Sports Medicine" on it that they might have access to emergency medical attention should they need it. Today I learned that this expectation is not reasonable at all.

throatybeard
09-13-2008, 08:24 PM
Also, this is a great reason to stop having noon games in mid-September at WW. Mid-September in Durham rivals mid-July many places in the US. ESPNU coverage is fun, but not at the expense of serious injury or death.

You're right, Allen. This is indicative of a disease that most of the American people have--the inability to understand the risks of heat exposure. Heat kills more people than any other natural disaster. Particularly in the South, we've got people who think the world is ending when it's 60 degrees, but will willingly go out into heat like that and risk death. It's insane.

allenmurray
09-13-2008, 08:34 PM
When I saw the uniformed police officers arriving (Durham PD), I thought that maybe help was on its way. But, no. Those people stood by and simply watched.

About fifteen years ago Durham didn't have separate Police and Fire services. Instead they had a Public Safety Department. Every officer was cross-trained as both an EMS worker, a Fire Fighter, and a Police Officer. Becuase Police Officers were usually the first to respond, the first responders were able to adminsiter first aid, up to and including any service usually provided by an EMS worker (they even carried those supplies in the trunks of thier cruisers). They went away from that at the insistence of a newly arrived police chief. It always seemed a good system to me.

doctorhook
09-13-2008, 08:35 PM
Cathy,

How do you know that all the EMS teams were not occupied at the time of this unfortunate gentleman's incident? If nine teams are taking caring of nine patients, do you expect them to leave their patient for this man? Of course not. I suggest you spend the day with one of these dedicated EMS teams in a situation like this, and you may not be so critical of their performance. As for the Durham PD, because of litigation fear, if they are not qualified/cerified EMS, they are instructed not to attend to these paients until EMS shows up.

CathyCA
09-13-2008, 08:44 PM
Cathy,

How do you know that all the EMS teams were not occupied at the time of this unfortunate gentleman's incident? If nine teams are taking caring of nine patients, do you expect them to leave their patient for this man? Of course not. I suggest you spend the day with one of these dedicated EMS teams in a situation like this, and you may not be so critical of their performance. As for the Durham PD, because of litigation fear, if they are not qualified/cerified EMS, they are instructed not to attend to these paients until EMS shows up.


I don't know whether the EMS teams were occupied or not when this gentleman needed them.

What I do know is that the weather forecasts predicted high temperatures for a noon start in Wally Wade. Duke University also knew how many people to expect, based on advance ticket sales. A little advance planning could have gotten more EMS teams in place at Wally Wade.

I do not doubt for one second the dedication of the EMS teams.

I do question their preparedness today, and I question the failure of the
university to adequately plan for such a situation.

And for a crowd of 25,000 people on a day as hot as today, I think that 9 teams of EMS workers is not enough.

Could they not call in EMS teams from other jurisdictions beforehand? Other colleges/universities call in law enforcement and EMS from other jurisdictions on their game days. It might not be a bad idea for Duke to consider this.

doctorhook
09-13-2008, 09:08 PM
Cathy,

I used 9 simply as a random number. Even if you have 15 teams, if there are 16 events, you will not be able to attend to everyone in a prompt manner. Planning for medical incidents is not an easy task, and there are times when the system just gets overwhelmed. You were not critical of the EMS, but you were critical of the PD without knowing policy and procedure. I do not claim that the system is/was good and certainly not perfect, but predicting medical events is not an easy task. I certainly did not see EMS crews sitting around eating pizza.

CathyCA
09-13-2008, 09:25 PM
Cathy,

I used 9 simply as a random number. Even if you have 15 teams, if there are 16 events, you will not be able to attend to everyone in a prompt manner. Planning for medical incidents is not an easy task, and there are times when the system just gets overwhelmed. You were not critical of the EMS, but you were critical of the PD without knowing policy and procedure. I do not claim that the system is/was good and certainly not perfect, but predicting medical events is not an easy task. I certainly did not see EMS crews sitting around eating pizza.

Yes, I had an expectation that when the police arrived, they would provide help. Usually that's what happens.

My apologies for not knowing that Durham PD could not respond to a medical emergency.

devil84
09-13-2008, 09:55 PM
The same thing happened in my section, too, though this was a young lady (college age) that was having trouble with the heat. Sometime in the first half, the Durham PD came down and looked at her. A few minutes later, an EMS guy came down empty handed, and spent time looking mostly befuddled, looking up towards the concourse. They finally walked her up, with neither the DPD or EMS person helping her.

At the half, my mom was having a bit of trouble. We were going to find some shade, and when she stood up, she got dizzy. We sat her down, had her drink her water (waiting for the crowds to subside), then my son and I helped her up the stairs to a shady area. We had to stop to let a golf cart through -- it was one of those passenger carts that seats 8, filled with six elderly people with ice bags on the backs of their necks.

We got mom to the shade behind the concession stand, where that young lady was still sitting in the shade looking uncomfortable. Mom was really starting to have problems, and the nearby police officer got her a couple of handfuls of ice wrapped in paper towel and offered to get her a chair. We moved her to a nearby bench, and she was able to be moved into a nearby air conditioned building. She was the first one in the building, and within 10 minutes, there were about 20 others in there -- five of those people (including my mom) looked like they could use EMS help. None of the people in that building saw an EMS worker, though there were several DPD officers in there.

Fortunately, the ice and the bottle of water mom had helped cool and rehydrate her enough that we were able to take her home in the middle of the third quarter. She's doing fine now.

Just from the number of people that we had to pass while helping my mom -- I'm not sure that Duke could have anticipated the need.

From here on out, night games through September get my vote!

(And that, Cathy, is the reason why I didn't find you during halftime!)

throatybeard
09-13-2008, 10:03 PM
The only day games Duke or any Southern school should ever have are those after Nov 15.

That said, it's hard to turn down the TV money especially when you're us.

I've been to grotesquely hot games even the first weekend in November at Wade. And Carter-Finley. And Davis-Wade in Starkville.

doctorhook
09-13-2008, 10:03 PM
When the police arrived, what sort of help did you expect that " usually happens" ? Are you referring to medical attention? Do you want untrained police officers providing medical services?

gvtucker
09-13-2008, 10:12 PM
It was hot today, no question. But it was definitely warmer at a game or two last year. I'm not sure why so many more people were being affected by the heat today, but there's no question that people were going down all over the stadium.

I'm not sure that this large a number of people needing help could be anticipated by the university.

RelativeWays
09-13-2008, 10:16 PM
I've never figured how lawsuits help in issues like this. If the judge held the guilty party for only what they were responsible for (in this case, medical expenses maybe) then I would be fine with them. Now they are little more than cash grabs for unscrupulous attorneys.

throatybeard
09-13-2008, 10:19 PM
It was hot today, no question. But it was definitely warmer at a game or two last year. I'm not sure why so many more people were being affected by the heat today, but there's no question that people were going down all over the stadium.

I'm not sure that this large a number of people needing help could be anticipated by the university.

The gross dewpoint in the 70s. That's why.

watzone
09-13-2008, 10:34 PM
I covered the game from the stands today and made my way around to a lot of areas. At one point I saw and elderly couple at the very top of the close horsehoe section and they were unhealthy looking hot. The husband had an umbrella and the wife was trying to get under it, but it didn't seem to work. She then went out to get something and returned. At that point I took it upon myself to deliver them some water and she was greatly appreciative. I kept a close eye on them, but at halftime both ended up at the EMS station after walking out to cool off. In all honesty, I saw twenty more people I wanted to buy a water or two for. The bottom line is I saw firsthand and extreme overload on the EMS services and a bunch and I do mean bunch of people being helped in evey way possible. In the third quarter alone, one station had an ambulance come and go six times. I felt concerned and helpless. I am sure the unexpected overload made the EMS feel overwhelmed as well. Everywhere you looked up top, people were suffering from the heat. One last thing, I saw one EMS worker go from person to person to person in the tent and each one needed his attention. I will admit, fans and more space were needed today, but to blame the EMS guys is wrong.

jlear
09-13-2008, 10:36 PM
It was hot today, no question. But it was definitely warmer at a game or two last year. I'm not sure why so many more people were being affected by the heat today, but there's no question that people were going down all over the stadium.

I'm not sure that this large a number of people needing help could be anticipated by the university.

I was thinking the same thing, it was hotter or as hot at a number of games in the last few years.

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone that had a problem far from it, but people need to take some personal responsibility here to maintain hydration and to get out of the heat if necessary. If your health is not good then you don't goto a game with a heat index near 100 period. I was shocked at some of the parents, and stories of parents around the stadium that were not, in my opinion taking the right steps with their kids to keep them hydrated. A kid in front of us was not doing well and ended up losing his lunch.

I believe that our new found competitiveness on the field had some of us using bad judgment for how much heat we could take today. I pray that no one has any lasting issues from the heat today and I am proud of all of our fans and the Navy fans that did not hesitate to help others.

We could use some more shade in the stadium, maybe some huge tents over areas of the concourse. Do other schools have this many issues when the heat index is near 100 and how many EMS teams per 10,000 fans is the right number?

doctorhook
09-13-2008, 10:43 PM
jlear,

Unfortunately, there is no " right number " because the number is dependent on too many variables, temperature, humidity, age of the crowd, etc. Even if you could arrive at that number, it will not be exact, so if you have 15 crews and there are 16 medical events, someone is out of luck. In a situation like today's, I am not sure anyone could have anticipated and prepared properly.

CameronBornAndBred
09-13-2008, 10:46 PM
I can agree with everyone here, on both sides. I think the university should have been better prepared, but at the same time I'm not sure anyone could have predicted how bad it would be. I think they were ready for a lot of cases, just not the numbers they saw. Even the Navy QB left the game with heat exhaustion, and as a sports team, they would have been plenty prepared themselves. Duke can't do much about what happened today because it is past, but I sure hope they learn from it. If they schedule a noon game again, they will need to double up the medical services. What they should really do though, is not schedule any noon games until October. Leave all of September for either night or late afternoon. Several people have commented on crowd size being small today, it's not hard to figure out why. Even a couple of us DBR folks who were at the game did not actually go in. They were quite satisfied to listen to the radio and the crowd from outside the stadium in the comfort of a shaded tree.

CathyCA
09-13-2008, 10:46 PM
people need to take some personal responsibility here to maintain hydration and to get out of the heat if necessary.

The concessions ran out of water in the 4th quarter. I wish I could have continued to hydrate.

OZZIE4DUKE
09-13-2008, 10:48 PM
There is something else that must come first. Improve the EMS services.

Midway through the second quarter an elderly man two rows in front of me slumped over and passed out. Fans sprung into action, getting him laid out on a bleacher, getting his clothes loosened. Getting some water and ice. A doctor seated near by came to help. People called for the EMS service. Three minutes later two police officers arrived. Another two minutes later two more police officers arrived. After NINE minutes two EMS folks arrived, but they had neither a defibrillator nor oxygen. After another three minutes two more EMS workers arrived with a defib and oxygen.

Fortunately it was a case of heat stroke.

Allen, I wrote about this in another thread. I didn't realize you were two rows behind me. I was sitting next to Dr. Ed Mabry, the elderly fan.

Ed lost consciousness for a few seconds when he first went down, but after the fans got him water and ice (mostly dousing him to cool him off), Ed recovered fairly quickly, even though he was kept prone. When the EMT's finally did get there, they put a finger pulse monitor on him and also checked his blood sugar as he is diabetic - they asked the right medical questions for the situation. They asked him if he was able to sit up and he finally did, and then they asked if he could walk up the steps, offering him the option of waiting for a stretcher, but he declined. Ed got a nice hand from the fans as he departed.

The first 4 police that arrived on the scene were worthless as far as helping him. The 2 EMT's, even with limited equipment at their disposal, did a nice job and were professional. The young man's first name was Hari.

Doc, again if you are reading this, I hope you're feeling well tonight.

Jarhead
09-13-2008, 10:48 PM
The amazing thing to me is that people do not know of the dangers of dehydration. It's so easy to prevent -- drink plenty of water, and don't wait until you are hot and thirsty to do it. The players hydrate themselves starting several days before a game. If you are planning to be sitting out in the sun at a football game in hot weather, hydrate before time, too. If you are hot, and you stop sweating, get help immediately.

Acymetric
09-13-2008, 10:48 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason ESPNU couldn't schedule a night game? Right now it seems like they're just showing classic games. I guess because its tougher to compete for viewers with the late night games like the USC-OSU game, but why not schedule for an 8:00 tv time?

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-13-2008, 10:53 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason ESPNU couldn't schedule a night game? Right now it seems like they're just showing classic games. I guess because its tougher to compete for viewers with the late night games like the USC-OSU game, but why not schedule for an 8:00 tv time?
A good question for Dr. White to raise.

doctorhook
09-13-2008, 10:58 PM
I do not have any specific numbers, but I would guess that more than 100 people, many of them elderly, were in need of medical attention. Evaluation of an older person who passes out is not a simple task, and ideally, each incident requires an EMS crew equipped with O2, defribrillator and more. There just are not enough of those crews around. I just do not think this degree of crisis could have been properly prepared for, but hopefully, it will be better next time.

CathyCA
09-13-2008, 10:58 PM
The same thing happened in my section, too, though this was a young lady (college age) that was having trouble with the heat. Sometime in the first half, the Durham PD came down and looked at her. A few minutes later, an EMS guy came down empty handed, and spent time looking mostly befuddled, looking up towards the concourse. They finally walked her up, with neither the DPD or EMS person helping her.

At the half, my mom was having a bit of trouble. We were going to find some shade, and when she stood up, she got dizzy. We sat her down, had her drink her water (waiting for the crowds to subside), then my son and I helped her up the stairs to a shady area. We had to stop to let a golf cart through -- it was one of those passenger carts that seats 8, filled with six elderly people with ice bags on the backs of their necks.

We got mom to the shade behind the concession stand, where that young lady was still sitting in the shade looking uncomfortable. Mom was really starting to have problems, and the nearby police officer got her a couple of handfuls of ice wrapped in paper towel and offered to get her a chair. We moved her to a nearby bench, and she was able to be moved into a nearby air conditioned building. She was the first one in the building, and within 10 minutes, there were about 20 others in there -- five of those people (including my mom) looked like they could use EMS help. None of the people in that building saw an EMS worker, though there were several DPD officers in there.

Fortunately, the ice and the bottle of water mom had helped cool and rehydrate her enough that we were able to take her home in the middle of the third quarter. She's doing fine now.

Just from the number of people that we had to pass while helping my mom -- I'm not sure that Duke could have anticipated the need.

From here on out, night games through September get my vote!

(And that, Cathy, is the reason why I didn't find you during halftime!)


d, I'm sorry to hear that your Mom had a bad experience at the game. I'm relieved to know that she's doing well now.

(((Hugs)))

devildeac
09-13-2008, 11:04 PM
The amazing thing to me is that people do not know of the dangers of dehydration. It's so easy to prevent -- drink plenty of water, and don't wait until you are hot and thirsty to do it. The players hydrate themselves starting several days before a game. If you are planning to be sitting out in the sun at a football game in hot weather, hydrate before time, too. If you are hot, and you stop sweating, get help immediately.

Avoiding alcohol and caffeine containing beverages is also important (both of which are, ahh, tough to do before/during sporting events). A bunch of DBR folks had a brunchgate prior to the event and I made sure I had very little alcohol and lots of OJ and milk and tasty breakfast foods during the gathering and probably 2 bottles of water during the game. It was tough walking up/down the stairs and around the concourse today and I am in fairly good shape and I even felt a bit light-headed with a headache at times during the game today.

OZZIE4DUKE
09-13-2008, 11:07 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason ESPNU couldn't schedule a night game? Right now it seems like they're just showing classic games. I guess because its tougher to compete for viewers with the late night games like the USC-OSU game, but why not schedule for an 8:00 tv time?

Let's face it: the only fans watching the Duke - Navy game on ESPNU were Duke and Navy fans, who probably would watch that over USC-Ohio State anyway, at least record one of them on their two channel DVR. Yes, this game should have been scheduled at night.

arnie
09-13-2008, 11:08 PM
So can the concession stand improvements.
So can the luxury boxes.
So can lowering the field.
So can removing the track.
So can fixing the parking situation.

There is something else that must come first. Improve the EMS services.

Midway through the second quarter an elderly man two rows in front of me slumped over and passed out. Fans sprung into action, getting him laid out on a bleacher, getting his clothes loosened. Getting some water and ice. A doctor seated near by came to help. People called for the EMS service. Three minutes later two police officers arrived. Another two minutes later two more police officers arrived. After NINE minutes two EMS folks arrived, but they had neither a defibrillator nor oxygen. After another three minutes two more EMS workers arrived with a defib and oxygen.

Fortunately it was a case of heat stroke. Had it been a heart attack the man would have been dead. There is no excuse for the lack of decent EMS services at any event where 25,000 people are gathered. I wasn't seated in some far outpost, but at the fifty yard line 23 rows up from the field. We could have gotten a couple of strong guys and carried the guy to the hospital in the time it took EMS to get there (well, that might be an exageration, but we could have gotten him to the stadium gate and to an ambulance). Of course, there were four EMS workers on the field, not fifty yards in front of us, but they never came. Instead, two workers, apparantly summoned from a galaxy far, far away, were called instead. It was frightening, and could have ended a lot worse than it did.

Allen Murray, I was also several rows behing the gentleman and can verify your statements and timing. It was absolutely pitiful and a disgrace. Navy fans were yelling about the lack of medical attention and the policeman (at least 4) were astounded that no medical personnel showed up to help. Fortunately, one of the fans was a doctor and the older gentleman was OK. I hope I don't have a serious problem some day at WW, because if I do, I'm probably done.

jlear
09-13-2008, 11:13 PM
The concessions ran out of water in the 4th quarter. I wish I could have continued to hydrate.

Well there is no excuse for that, and I think some of the stands ran out in the first two games too!

Too bad we cannot bring sealed bottles of water into the stadium.

Acymetric
09-13-2008, 11:16 PM
The concessions ran out of water in the 4th quarter. I wish I could have continued to hydrate.


Well there is no excuse for that, and I think some of the stands ran out in the first two games too!

Too bad we cannot bring sealed bottles of water into the stadium.

I don't really see how this can happen. Order enough for 5 games. If you don't sell it, sell it at other places in school during the week, or save it for next week. I'm pretty sure water doesn't go bad, certainly not in a week's time.

Edit: Is that the right way to say that? Is it "week's time" or "weeks time" in that case? Any members of our well staffed grammar police feel free to chime in.

watzone
09-13-2008, 11:19 PM
The amazing thing to me is that people do not know of the dangers of dehydration. It's so easy to prevent -- drink plenty of water, and don't wait until you are hot and thirsty to do it. The players hydrate themselves starting several days before a game. If you are planning to be sitting out in the sun at a football game in hot weather, hydrate before time, too. If you are hot, and you stop sweating, get help immediately.

Bingo! I'm a beach bum from days gone by so I am okay at these events, provided I hydrate. Knowing how hot it would be I had three bottles of water and a large lemonade at the game. That's fifteen dollars;) I saw a lot of people that should have known better than to battle the heat, yet they did. Also made a point not to drink but one caff drink in the morning and no brews!

No excuse running our of H2O though. As much as we've talked about this, the trend continues. Very slow lines with the digitals as well.

OZZIE4DUKE
09-13-2008, 11:20 PM
Edit: Is that the right way to say that? Is it "week's time" or "weeks time" in that case? Any members of our well staffed grammar police feel free to chime in.

One week's time, two weeks' time. And I'm an engineer.

Acymetric
09-13-2008, 11:22 PM
One week's time, two weeks' time. And I'm an engineer.

Thanks. If I'd bothered to think of it like that I probably wouldn't have had to ask. I remember engineering, my former major/career choice. Good times.

arnie
09-13-2008, 11:25 PM
Well there is no excuse for that, and I think some of the stands ran out in the first two games too!

Too bad we cannot bring sealed bottles of water into the stadium.

Anytime the temperatures are warm, the concession stands run out of water. This has been going on for years. Despite the team playing really well today, the afternoon was disturbing. A number of people tried to go into the lobby of Cameron in the second half for the A/C and the security people advised that it was not open to the public.

The EMT's and police are not to blame, it continues to be a problem caused by the administration, as they are arrogant and don't bother with proper planning for an event. I think we deserve better!!

Devil in the Blue Dress
09-13-2008, 11:41 PM
Anytime the temperatures are warm, the concession stands run out of water. This has been going on for years. Despite the team playing really well today, the afternoon was disturbing. A number of people tried to go into the lobby of Cameron in the second half for the A/C and the security people advised that it was not open to the public.

The EMT's and police are not to blame, it continues to be a problem caused by the administration, as they are arrogant and don't bother with proper planning for an event. I think we deserve better!!
We've got a new AD. Now is a good time to share your thoughts and suggestions with him.

godukecom
09-13-2008, 11:49 PM
You know what I dont understand? doesnt Duke leagally HAVE TO have a water fountain available? Isnt there a law that says any person who wants water at such an event must have access to free water? Especially at duke football games, where we cant bring in our own water and they stands often run out of bottled water on the days when it is needed most...

devil84
09-14-2008, 01:12 AM
I think today was a confluence of a lot of factors. It was extremely humid and hot today, far more humid and substantially hotter than it has been for the past several weeks, so people might have felt that it wouldn't be so hot (I didn't think it'd be that bad!). The high humidity makes it difficult for a body to cool itself through sweating, which is a huge problem for heat exhaustion, even if properly hydrated.

People were hydrating, but at $3 minimum per beverage, some may have wanted to save the money for the well over $4/gallon gas gouging prices thanks to Ike on the ride home.

Concessions ran out of water in the fourth quarter (according to other messages), but many people were going down in the second quarter. As far as ordering extra water: I routinely work the concession stands at the Durham Bulls for one of my non-profit groups as a fundraiser. I can tell you that there is generally limited cubic feet of storage to stock up for more than one or two games (and the Bulls tops out at 5K fans or so; storage for 30K fans has got to be enormous). Even if the concessions could store everything they desired, sometimes the supplier doesn't deliver nearly the quantity that was ordered. As far as this year at Wallace Wade is concerned, I've been thrilled that I can still get a barbeque sandwich in the second quarter -- I wasn't able to do that last year, so they have done better on being prepared for large crowds.

So many people were wearing blue (which I LOVE), but the dark color absorbs heat whereas a light colored shirt reflects more/absorbs less. A white-out might have helped a little. (Only a little.)

So many people succumbed to the heat that EMS was overwhelmed. Even if every fan with Red Cross First Aid training sprang into action, we still probably wouldn't have had enough trained personnel (I have the training but I was busy helping my mom).

I sat right next to my mom, and watched her drink a nearly a quart of lemonade, then she had a bottle of water that she started on. I was monitoring her fluid intake (I also ran a band camp this summer for high school kids and monitor their after school rehearsals, so I'm quite familiar with pushing hydration in the heat). She had no alcohol and has no major health conditions that present a higher risk for heat exhaustion. She was even wearing a light colored shirt (I almost fussed at her when I saw her to change into a blue shirt and I'm glad I didn't). She's a "good weather" football fan, too -- meaning that the weather must be not too hot, not too cold, and not rainy for her to attend. To my knowledge, she's never suffered an episode like this.

If Duke doesn't call their EMS contractor asking questions and contracting for more help, I'm certain that the EMS workers will note to their bosses that they would not like to do a game like this again, and the EMS contractors will note the situation to Duke and request that Duke hire more workers. I'm sure that Duke Concessions will hear from the volunteer organizations that staff the stands that they lost income for their non-profit because they ran out of water and other concessions, if Duke hasn't already figured out that they've lost revenue (in addition to the public safety issue of running out of water).

And now that we've complained about the heat, we'll anger the Weather Gods (cousins of the Weaux Gods), and we've ensured ourselves that we'll be suffering from frostbite for the last few games -- but plenty of cold water will be available just to spite us. :D

Back to being serious...I just don't know that anyone, either Duke or the individual fans that succumbed to the head, could really have planned that we'd have a larger crowd than we've had in years on an abnormally hot and humid September day... Well, I just think it's pointless to point fingers with definitive reasons as to who was negligent because there were just too many factors to consider. Some fans even did everything right and still succumbed to the heat.

BigDuke6
09-14-2008, 07:31 AM
My brother and I are off duty firemen and paramedics. We missed the game from the second quarter on. There were four times as many EMS service people than normally scheduled and they called in two crews of firemen from local stations to assist as well. That's a lot of help but it wasn't enough because of the number of people needing assistance. I'm sorry we couldn't get to everybody in a timely manner or it seemed like we were not prepared. I did my best and helped out as many as I could. It was a rough day on everybody.

Uncle Drew
09-14-2008, 07:44 AM
I wasn't there, but I was outside and know how miserable it was all over the area. That being said I can understand onlooker frustration when they saw fans dropping like flies. Having been married to a nurse I can say when there are epidemic or emergency situations, health care individuals and systems get overloaded. Everyone who is sick / hurt wants their discomfort to go away as fast as possible. Things can actually get pretty nasty for the caregivers when people get frustrated about having to wait to get the attention they think they deserve. We as human beings are sometimes so blinded by our own suffering or the suffering of a loved one we neglect to see the suffering of many around us. I honestly hope anyone and everyone in need of medical attention got it and is feeling better today. But I also know the ones who were there were probably doing the best they could and are probably worn out from it today. I must agree with other posters night games in September make a lot more sense.

doctorhook
09-14-2008, 09:37 AM
BigDuke6,

Thank you for your help yesterday. I was not part of the medical teams, but based on what I observed, I assumed your experience was unfortunately the norm for the day. It just bothers me that when a situation like this occurs, people immediately find fault even when those finding fault have no knowledge of the facts. The immediate response by some is " lawsuit " even to the point of camera documentation to support the claim of the "victim". Again, thank you for doing your best in a bad environment.

Ima Facultiwyfe
09-14-2008, 10:11 AM
My brother and I are off duty firemen and paramedics. We missed the game from the second quarter on. There were four times as many EMS service people than normally scheduled and they called in two crews of firemen from local stations to assist as well. That's a lot of help but it wasn't enough because of the number of people needing assistance. I'm sorry we couldn't get to everybody in a timely manner or it seemed like we were not prepared. I did my best and helped out as many as I could. It was a rough day on everybody.

Thanks for all you did and thanks for your input here, BigDuke. Bless your heart.
Love, Ima

Carlos
09-14-2008, 10:14 AM
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason ESPNU couldn't schedule a night game? Right now it seems like they're just showing classic games. I guess because its tougher to compete for viewers with the late night games like the USC-OSU game, but why not schedule for an 8:00 tv time?

Yes indeed ESPNU could schedule a night game. In this case it was called Virginia at Connecticut which, even with Virginia having a down year, is still likely more of a draw than Duke-Navy. You don't get the prime time games (or the 3:30 games) until you're a stronger program.

Given the information that BigDuke6 shared I don't think you can fault Duke for not having enough personnel on hand. However, Duke certainly could have -


Anticipated the need for more water when the forecast called for 95 degrees and a dew point of 70. Running out of water at any point in the game was poor planning.
Had the PA announcer make frequent reminders to the fans to hydrate and to announce the locations of any public water fountains.
Put up a few of those misting tents around the concourse.

Uncle Drew
09-14-2008, 11:03 AM
Yes indeed ESPNU could schedule a night game. In this case it was called Virginia at Connecticut which, even with Virginia having a down year, is still likely more of a draw than Duke-Navy. You don't get the prime time games (or the 3:30 games) until you're a stronger program.

Given the information that BigDuke6 shared I don't think you can fault Duke for not having enough personnel on hand. However, Duke certainly could have -


Anticipated the need for more water when the forecast called for 95 degrees and a dew point of 70. Running out of water at any point in the game was poor planning.
Had the PA announcer make frequent reminders to the fans to hydrate and to announce the locations of any public water fountains.
Put up a few of those misting tents around the concourse.



Okay someone has already stated the concessions only has X amount of storage area for bottled water. Perhaps in the future they need to look into getting more storage BUT you just pointed out something huge......PUBLIC WATER FOUNTAINS. I'm sorry, but at what point did the water we drink have to come out of a bottle? The tap stuff with flouride is even better for your teeth for that matter. If I was forced to buy a bottle of water (I refuse to because the next thing they will charge us for is air) I would refill it with tap anyway.

It's not like I don't have sympathy for those suffering from dehydration / heat stroke. That stuff hits fast and makes a human feel miserable. But having the announcer tell everyone to drink fluids? Someone has to tell you on an extremely hot and humid day to rehydrate as much as you can? I guess it can't hurt, and if nothing else would spare Duke of lawsuits some people want to file. Hey, we announced several times it was hot and you need to drink water, but you didn't listen. (Sue first ask questions later society.)

Me thinks shade would be a huge help. Then again when you pay cash to see a game you want to see it. Taking a break to walk back to the top to sit under a tent for a few minutes and missing out on the game would irk quite a few people. (But it sure beats having heat stroke!) Then again the climb alone to the tents is apt to overheat a person even worse. I guess it just kind of bugs me someone would imply Duke is somehow at fault for people not taking care of themselves. Sure I guess if Duke had known people were going to be falling out all over the stadium they could have gotten more medical help. But like the people who did suffer heat stroke they didn't plan on overheating and I'm pretty sure Duke didn't plan on it either. Yesterday was a one in a decade (or more) kind of day for football. If you had the amount of medical help needed for yesterday at every game for the next ten years odds are very good they wouldn't be needed to that same degree.

As for prime time games, well it wasn't on my TV and had the game been in the evening I could have gone. I mean if it's going to actually be on Raycom, ABC or REGULAR ESPN etc. I could see the justification. But then my opinion doesn't matter any more than the next person. Personally IMO night gaves have more of an electricity to them, the turnout seems better and nobody has to worry about sunscreen or shade.

Carlos
09-14-2008, 12:33 PM
Latta - I'm not implying that Duke is somehow at fault for people not taking care of themselves. I'm merely offering up some thoughts that may have prevented people from suffering from heat stroke in the first place.

I would disagree with you when you state that Duke didn't anticipate people suffering from heat stroke since they clearly staffed up on EMS people as indicated by a previous poster. So if you know that the conditions are there then why not take extra steps to prevent some of medical problems rather than just staff up to treat the problems after the occur?

The concessions may only have X amount of space for storage, but certainly you could find room somewhere near the stadium to store some extra water. How many bottles of water could you store on the concourse in Cameron? Load up a few of those golf carts and have them shuttle water back to the concessions in Wade.

As for the choice between a night game and a TV game - it's a no-brainer, regardless of the heat. Say Duke did decline to move the game time to noon. How likely will it be that TV networks will look to work with Duke on future football games? How interested will out of conference opponents be to schedule games with Duke knowing that they stand an even lesser chance of being on TV than they would by scheduling a game against a team of similar quality? How interested will recruits be to come to a school that may not ever be on TV?

Until Duke football reaches the level of Duke basketball - where the quality of the program dictates the better time slots - they're going to have to accept less than ideal game times if they want to be on TV.

CathyCA
09-14-2008, 12:53 PM
BigDuke6,

Thank you for your help yesterday. I was not part of the medical teams, but based on what I observed, I assumed your experience was unfortunately the norm for the day. It just bothers me that when a situation like this occurs, people immediately find fault even when those finding fault have no knowledge of the facts. The immediate response by some is " lawsuit " even to the point of camera documentation to support the claim of the "victim". Again, thank you for doing your best in a bad environment.

Is this a personal attack on me? It feels that way.

Are you saying that I shouldn't have taken pictures? Are you saying that I shouldn't have pointed out the obvious?

No, I didn't have knowledge of the global situation in WW. All I had knowledge of was the situation that was unfolding in front of me. I didn't know if this man had suffered a heart attack or not. The slow response concerned me. If you or your parent had been the victim, wouldn't you have wanted a quicker response?

I think that the obvious remedy is to hold September games at night.

Raleighfan
09-14-2008, 04:02 PM
It was hot today, no question. But it was definitely warmer at a game or two last year. I'm not sure why so many more people were being affected by the heat today, but there's no question that people were going down all over the stadium.

I'm not sure that this large a number of people needing help could be anticipated by the university.

I've been to practically all Duke home FB games for the last 26 years and I truly cannot recall that the temp at game time was ever in the 90's as it was yesterday. I think perception and memory can play tricks on us, but I cannot recall the heat being so brutal in the past. Ha, even 80 degrees with the sun beating on you can seem pretty hot and sticky in WW. Altho I don't have a history of fainting, I knew I wasn't in a good place when I started feeling light-headed and had no energy to applaud/cheer for the team. FWIW, I was wearing a wide-brimmed hat and had my little portable fan with me. Maybe I should thank the toddler who kept kicking my seatback for keeping me conscious. At any rate, I myself got to a shady place during the second quarter; I didn't want to push my luck by continuing to stay in my seat. There were already lots of people in that shady place...sr. citizens and young kids. I'm sorry to hear that there were so many more who apparently were worse off than we were. I salute the players and band members in full dress uniform...guess they're in better shape to tolerate the heat.

Stupid question: games are delayed because of lightning; are they ever delayed because of heat? I doubt it, even though both are dangerous.

throatybeard
09-14-2008, 04:09 PM
I've been to practically all Duke home FB games for the last 26 years and I truly cannot recall that the temp at game time was ever in the 90's as it was yesterday.

It's happened as recently as the VMI game a couple years ago. There was a Virginia game in the late 90s. There are probably several others I'm forgetting.

doctorhook
09-14-2008, 04:40 PM
Cathy,

I do not know you personally therefore I would not call my comments a personal attack. I am simply saying that I find it discouraging that in many situations, people focus on the legal implications of the situation. Rather than taking photographs, I would have run to the nearest aid station/EMS person. I do not think it would occur to me to take pictures to document the event in case of legal action. I also find it discouraging when people jump to conclusions and criticize without knowing the facts. In this scenario, what was so obvious, aside from the fact that the man needed help and that the EMS was not there as quickly as was optimal? I certainly agree with your remedy and obviously you are free to take as many pictures as you choose.

allenmurray
09-14-2008, 04:52 PM
Rather than taking photographs, I would have run to the nearest aid station/EMS person. .

Probably a dozen people had already done so - I doubt number 13 would have made a difference.

doctorhook
09-14-2008, 05:02 PM
Allen,

If 12 people had already attempted to find the EMS and they did not arrive quickly, one would assume that they were busy and caring for another patient. It is certainly possible that they were not responding properly, but based on the comments of BigDuke6 that does not appear to be the case.

phaedrus
09-14-2008, 05:19 PM
I've never figured how lawsuits help in issues like this. If the judge held the guilty party for only what they were responsible for (in this case, medical expenses maybe) then I would be fine with them. Now they are little more than cash grabs for unscrupulous attorneys.

Considering cash can only be awarded by a jury of YOUR peers, it's hard to justify calling it a "cash grab". As unscrupulous as attorneys may come, they're not the ones handing out punitive awards.

365Duke
09-14-2008, 05:35 PM
cathy, deac, ozzie, myself, and maybe a couple of others were all sitting within 10 feet of each other and did not know it. Lets figure out a system that we can recognize each other for the Va. game.

Hope all is well with the gentleman who passed out. Although it was strange to me that a Durham PD officer asked me to make a path for the stretcher when it comes down. I said I would gladly get out of the way, and then she asked if I would go down 2 rows and ask them to move. In which I replied , "uh, you are wearing the uniform, can't you ask them". I'm sorry, I would have done it, but don't you think that a uniformed officer would be better for the job, than a soaking wet fan to walk down and say "hey, get out of the way"?

Weird

CameronBornAndBred
09-14-2008, 05:45 PM
I think given the circumstances people would recognize what was happening and gladly move regardless of if you had a uniform.
I will say one thing about the police, I noticed several of them walking in the stands, something I had not seen before in the previous games. In hind sight, I can only assume they were actually looking for signs of people in distress as opposed to people breaking the law. If that was the case, they should be commended, looking for problems before they became worse.

CathyCA
09-14-2008, 07:18 PM
cathy, deac, ozzie, myself, and maybe a couple of others were all sitting within 10 feet of each other and did not know it. Lets figure out a system that we can recognize each other for the Va. game.



Yup. CathyCA, Ozzie, and Allenmurray were all sitting in section 27 when the gentleman suffered the episode. After the second half, Devildeac came down and sat with Ozzie for a while.

365Duke, here's the system for recognizing us: Go to the OTB. Click on the thread entitled "Brunchgate." I posted a picture of the DBR group taken at our tailgate prior to Saturday's game. ;)

Seriously, I would love to say hi to you at the VA game. Maybe you would like to join us for our next tailgate? We have a congenial group of DBR regulars who meet up prior to the games. I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know each of them in person, turning our online friendships into real-life friendships.

OZZIE4DUKE
09-14-2008, 07:22 PM
cathy, deac, ozzie, myself, and maybe a couple of others were all sitting within 10 feet of each other and did not know it. Lets figure out a system that we can recognize each other for the Va. game.


I met Cathy 2 weeks ago and the JMU game, DevilDeac is a long time friend and classmate (1976), and actually had come to talk with me from his seat elsewhere, and I met Allen earlier Saturday when he joined our morning tailgate. Next tailgate is in 2 weeks before the Virginia game - details to be worked out.

Uncle Drew
09-14-2008, 07:25 PM
Latta - I'm not implying that Duke is somehow at fault for people not taking care of themselves. I'm merely offering up some thoughts that may have prevented people from suffering from heat stroke in the first place.

I would disagree with you when you state that Duke didn't anticipate people suffering from heat stroke since they clearly staffed up on EMS people as indicated by a previous poster. So if you know that the conditions are there then why not take extra steps to prevent some of medical problems rather than just staff up to treat the problems after the occur?

The concessions may only have X amount of space for storage, but certainly you could find room somewhere near the stadium to store some extra water. How many bottles of water could you store on the concourse in Cameron? Load up a few of those golf carts and have them shuttle water back to the concessions in Wade.

As for the choice between a night game and a TV game - it's a no-brainer, regardless of the heat. Say Duke did decline to move the game time to noon. How likely will it be that TV networks will look to work with Duke on future football games? How interested will out of conference opponents be to schedule games with Duke knowing that they stand an even lesser chance of being on TV than they would by scheduling a game against a team of similar quality? How interested will recruits be to come to a school that may not ever be on TV?

Until Duke football reaches the level of Duke basketball - where the quality of the program dictates the better time slots - they're going to have to accept less than ideal game times if they want to be on TV.


First I appologize for coming off negative Carlos. If nothing else you were offering up possible solutions instead of just complaining and pointing out negatives. Pointing out soultions, even ones that seem obvious to those of us with common sense is progressive. I think the thing that irritated me was the idea Duke could be held accountable in a court of law for this or that. The forecast for yesterdays game was for HOT and humid, and I don't think anyone realized (perhaps since the calender read September) it was going to be THAT hot and THAT humid. But the implication of legal grounds to me seemed about as fair as a guy getting frostbite for showing up to a game in Buffalo in January, then trying to sue the Bills.

throatybeard
09-14-2008, 08:21 PM
I have no opinions about litigiousness or first responders.

What I don't understand is why we never have enough water on hand. Games with this kind of punishing, hellish, 9th circle heat and humidity are par for the course in the SEC, especially in Gainesville and Baton Rouge, but also Starkville, Tuscaloosa, Auburn, Athens, Columbia. I've been to games down there and they seem to be able to provide water for 3 times as many people as you have at a well-attended Duke game.

allenmurray
09-14-2008, 09:27 PM
Allen,

If 12 people had already attempted to find the EMS and they did not arrive quickly, one would assume that they were busy and caring for another patient. It is certainly possible that they were not responding properly, but based on the comments of BigDuke6 that does not appear to be the case.

I have no doubt they were working incredibly hard. I have no problems with the ones who were there. My concern is whether there were enough - the ones who were there were working their butts off - that is obvious.

That is not what I meant by my response. It was directed to your assumption that CathyCa could/should have done more. Since she was there, she knew that enough people had already sought help, and that her doing so was not necessary. You didn't need to tell her what she could/should have done instead of taking pictures. Again, since she was right there, she was aware of how she could or could not be helpful.

jimsumner
09-14-2008, 09:31 PM
It seems to me that there are two things Duke can do to mitigate the water problem, one short-term, one long-term. The first is to relax regulations on bringing in water. I can see no logical reason why fans shouldn't be able to bring in coolers with unopened bottles of water. If music ampitheaters allow it, so can Duke.

Long-term, when the much ballyhooed Wade revamp comes about, Duke needs to put water fountains in place, lots of them, cooled if possible, if not that, at least in the shade.

No one should have to wait in line to pay three dollars for a bottle of water in order to keep from having heat stroke.

While we're on the subject, some water fountains in Cameron wouldn't hurt either. Place is a sauna.

devildeac
09-14-2008, 09:42 PM
It seems to me that there are two things Duke can do to mitigate the water problem, one short-term, one long-term. The first is to relax regulations on bringing in water. I can see no logical reason why fans shouldn't be able to bring in coolers with unopened bottles of water. If music ampitheaters allow it, so can Duke.

Long-term, when the much ballyhooed Wade revamp comes about, Duke needs to put water fountains in place, lots of them, cooled if possible, if not that, at least in the shade.

No one should have to wait in line to pay three dollars for a bottle of water in order to keep from having heat stroke.

While we're on the subject, some water fountains in Cameron wouldn't hurt either. Place is a sauna.


Have you spoken with Dr. White about your ideas? A serious question/suggestion, not meant to be smart-alecky at all.

Methodistman
09-14-2008, 11:50 PM
As the husband of a personal injury attorney, I truly hope and pray that none of you ever get screwed by the insurance companies. Additionally, I truly hope that a doctor never seriously screws up in your treatment. On top of all of that, I truly hope that non one ever produces a product that ultimately produces harmful physical results for you. Because if they do, without a lawyer, you're just screwed.

The point of all of this is if you were at the game, you knew how freaking hot it was. And you knew how few and far between help was. My son, who just turned 9 at the game, could only talk about the people he saw pass out from the heat, instead of a victory against a pretty decent team. Even when we went to buy more water, and had to buy it for $3.50 out of the tap in a Duke cup because "bottled" water was gone, we simply did it because it was what we had to do. When we went up, people were crowded in the shade (seriously - I saw a shoving match break out over the shade), and kids were sticking their heads under the water in the bathrooms (no - not swirlies).

Long story short - back off of the attorney criticisms, unless you promise to never use one. Quit the hypocrisy.

CLT Devil
09-14-2008, 11:59 PM
Most miserable game (weather wise) I've ever been to. It was on the brink of being a disaster, with so many people having a very hard time with the weather. Not only did the water run out, but it ran out in the 1st quarter. At least they had ice and tap water, but I agree with the sentiment here it shouldn't have cost $3.50 for a cup. The day could have easily turned out differently, and not in a good way.

OZZIE4DUKE
09-15-2008, 12:25 AM
Most miserable game (weather wise) I've ever been to.

You obviously haven't been to enough games then. :eek:

Someone commented that Saturday was a once in a decade hot. That is ridiculous. This is North Carolina folks, it is hot in September. Often. Most Septembers we have had games with similar hot conditions. Look back on threads last September (and the year before last) complaining that we should be playing night games. The last time I was in WW under such conditions (or hotter) was in August for the open scrimmage. OK, that's August, but only 5 weeks ago. I sat with A J Carr and Al Fetherston, and yeah, it was very hot (mid 90's), very humid and very sunny, but if I hadn't have been in WW I would have been on the golf course, walking pulling a pull cart, just like I did today, and hey, it was just as hot today as yesterday, although there was a consistent light breeze, which was very nice.

Personally, I would rather be sitting in Saturday's heat than in cold, wet conditions in late November. But I'll be there either way, and prepare for it the best I can. I did notice one nearby fan who went out to his car at halftime and returned with an umbrella to shade himself from the sun. It was the same umbrella he used 2 weeks ago (and he let me share) during the rain and lightning delay.

doctorhook
09-15-2008, 07:57 AM
Allen,

Did you read BigDuke6's post? He states that there were four times the usual number of EMS/first aid people at the game. I am saying that even with planning, it is sometimes impossible to prepare adequately when a confluence of factors occur resulting in an unexpected, unpredictable number of medical events. As for Cathy's original post, I responded because I felt she made an assertion based on conclusions she made which may well be inaccurate. I also did not tell Cathy what she could or could not do ( I stated she is free to take whatever pictures she wanted ), I said that is not what would have occured to me.

RelativeWays
09-15-2008, 08:34 AM
Considering cash can only be awarded by a jury of YOUR peers, it's hard to justify calling it a "cash grab". As unscrupulous as attorneys may come, they're not the ones handing out punitive awards.

Perhaps its an unfair indictment of certain attorneys (and I don't hate attorneys so lets not go down that road) but I do hate how the civil court system is being exploited to profit from irresponsibility. I'm also not attacking the right to litigate because thats often the only option someone has to redress grievous errors and mishaps caused by corporations and other institutions that are loathe to admit any wrongdoing.

However, I think there are opportunistic clients looking to profit from being a "victim" (and we as Duke fans know this better than anyone) so if I read someone's response to a problem is to film or photograph it in case those involved want to sue, well I'm a bit wary of their intent (and I'm not trying to insinuate that CathyCA was looking to profit from heat stroke or dehydration). Its probably a result of the media's representation of class action lawsuits and that people want to take less and less responsibility for their actions lately that has created this bias, but there it is nonetheless.

allenmurray
09-15-2008, 09:24 AM
Allen,

Did you read BigDuke6's post? He states that there were four times the usual number of EMS/first aid people at the game. I am saying that even with planning, it is sometimes impossible to prepare adequately when a confluence of factors occur resulting in an unexpected, unpredictable number of medical events. As for Cathy's original post, I responded because I felt she made an assertion based on conclusions she made which may well be inaccurate. I also did not tell Cathy what she could or could not do ( I stated she is free to take whatever pictures she wanted ), I said that is not what would have occured to me.

I thought that given that she was there, and you were not, your tone toward CathyCC was negative, without need. It might not have occurred to you to take pictures - but you suggested that she should have sought help, when in fact multiple people had already done so, making no need for her to do so as well. She was concerned about a fellow Duke fan, and you chose to criticize her actions, even though you had no knowledge of the particular situation.

CathyCA
09-15-2008, 09:43 AM
Perhaps its an unfair indictment of certain attorneys (and I don't hate attorneys so lets not go down that road) but I do hate how the civil court system is being exploited to profit from irresponsibility. I'm also not attacking the right to litigate because thats often the only option someone has to redress grievous errors and mishaps caused by corporations and other institutions that are loathe to admit any wrongdoing.

However, I think there are opportunistic clients looking to profit from being a "victim" (and we as Duke fans know this better than anyone) so if I read someone's response to a problem is to film or photograph it in case those involved want to sue, well I'm a bit wary of their intent (and I'm not trying to insinuate that CathyCA was looking to profit from heat stroke or dehydration). Its probably a result of the media's representation of class action lawsuits and that people want to take less and less responsibility for their actions lately that has created this bias, but there it is nonetheless.

FWIW, I was not taking pictures to use for my own profit. It was simply to provide some help to the man in the form of documentation, should he ever need it.

Now, I'm going to get back to my work this morning, representing a physician.

doctorhook
09-15-2008, 09:53 AM
Allen,

I think we are getting away from the point of your thread. I am not saying Cathy is a bad person for doing what she chose to do, and I have said, again, that she is free to photograph whatever she chooses. Everyone responds to situations differently, and I am saying her repsonse would not be mine. She did make statmentsthat were wrong/probably wrong and I was reacting to those comments.

You did not reply to my comment about BigDuke6 and the number of EMS people at the game.

CLT Devil
09-15-2008, 10:38 AM
Ozzie,
I've been to many games, college and pro and this was the most miserable. Contrast Sat to the Duke v ND game in South Bend last year and I'll take the cold anyday. At ND it was near freezing, rainy, we were losing badly and I still felt like I could get warm enough to enjoy. Saturday there was no escape from the heat.

RelativeWays
09-15-2008, 10:59 AM
FWIW, I was not taking pictures to use for my own profit. It was simply to provide some help to the man in the form of documentation, should he ever need it.

Now, I'm going to get back to my work this morning, representing a physician.

That why I said I'm not trying to insinuate that you were looking to profit from the situation. I was more explaining the reasoning behind my reaction, and I admit its a bias.

allenmurray
09-15-2008, 12:01 PM
Allen,

I think we are getting away from the point of your thread. I am not saying Cathy is a bad person for doing what she chose to do, and I have said, again, that she is free to photograph whatever she chooses. Everyone responds to situations differently, and I am saying her repsonse would not be mine. She did make statmentsthat were wrong/probably wrong and I was reacting to those comments.

You did not reply to my comment about BigDuke6 and the number of EMS people at the game.

I have seen very little criticism of the crews that were there, but a lot of criticism of the lack of planning on the part of the university (Running out of water? Charging $3.50 for tap water when there had been, 20+ counts of heat exhaustion?) There is a big difference between being critical of the planning process and being critical of the personnel who were there and working hard, but you seem to be intent on taking one as equivilant to the other.

You did in fact criticze another poster, saying that if you been there you would have not taken pictures but instead would have gone and gotten help. But you were not there, so you have no way of knowing that the reason she did not go and get help was because multiple people had already done so.

If there were not enough EMS folks there to cover the need, then there were not enough folks there to cover the need. That is pretty obvious. However, pointing that out is not criticism of the ones that were there. I understand that in planning for events folks can get things wrong. But I can tell you that had the combination of the number of calls and the fact theat there were not enough crews resulted in a death the criticism of the event planners (not the crews that were working) would be a lot more intense than it is now.

And I can understand that there might be a policy that says a crew must remain on the field. Serious injuries can take place on a football field that require immediate attention. But in fact there was a crew unoccupied on the field during the time that the event I witnessed took place. Had the gentleman in front of me been having a heart attack, instead of sufferring from heat exhaustion, would that have been a good enough reason for the crew to leave the field, even if it meant the game being halted for an official time out? I hope so.

Folks started and contributed to this thread becasue they were worried about their fellow fans, not because they wanted to criticize the EMS crews who were there and working hard. No poster should have to apologize for being concerned about fans who they were seeing pass out right in front of them. Please understand why folks are concerned, and that is was/is their concern that drives their posting. Your insistance on reading this as a criticism of the EMS crews is wrong. We know they were working hard and were overwhelmed, we simply think the universwity was caught in a case of poor planning.

doctorhook
09-15-2008, 12:22 PM
Allen,

I think you should reread Cathy's original post. It contains statements that are incorrect/likely incorrect, and it contains criticism of the EMS, Durham PD, and Duke.

As for what I would have done, I have been in that situation many times, personally and professionally, and I know what I have done, and it never involved photographic documentation. If someone takes that to be criticism, I am sorry.

You repeat the criticism that there was poor planning without knowing what plans were in place. How do you know that the planning was poor? There may have been poor planning, but neither you nor I know that without knowing the facts. One man's unfortunate experience is not evidence of poor preparadeness.

jhenrymus
09-15-2008, 12:37 PM
I completely agree but something even more annoying is the obnoxious blaring and over use of the PA system. Hopefully enough fans will complain to limit its use during the game or at least cutting down the volume.

SharkD
09-15-2008, 01:21 PM
It was absolutely pitiful and a disgrace. Navy fans were yelling about the lack of medical attention and the policeman (at least 4) were astounded that no medical personnel showed up to help.

My wife (a Duke hemotology-oncology nurse, and 5 months pregnant, to boot) hurdled 3-4 rows and was at Dr. Mabry's side, checking his pulse and respiration within about 10 seconds of his collapse. (We were in Row Y.) Once she determined that he was breathing and had a steady pulse, she stepped back, as he needed circulating air, shade and water, not twenty people huddled over him, raising the ambient temp even more.

She and I both believe that the camera platform location, which bottlenecked (north) and blocked (south) foot traffic between the stands and Finch-Yeager contributed to the delay in EMS response. They were forced to cut through the Finch-Yeager tunnel, which was full of people trying to find shade.

BTW, the home side concession shacks were out of bottled water at the beginning of halftime. Furthermore, they wouldn't even sell cups of ice without charging the $3.50 they normally charge for a soda.


Yup. CathyCA, Ozzie, and Allenmurray were all sitting in section 27 when the gentleman suffered the episode. After the second half, Devildeac came down and sat with Ozzie for a while.

365Duke, here's the system for recognizing us: Go to the OTB. Click on the thread entitled "Brunchgate." I posted a picture of the DBR group taken at our tailgate prior to Saturday's game. ;)

Not only were we sitting near you in Sec 27, we were tailgating with friends (and friends of friends) directly adjactent to you in the B-3 lot. LOL. (And we found out, that you can, in fact, fit six adults in a fully-loaded 4Runner.)

Whodathunkit?

Jarhead
09-15-2008, 01:35 PM
BTW, the home side concession shacks were out of bottled water at the beginning of halftime. Furthermore, they wouldn't even sell cups of ice without charging the $3.50 they normally charge for a soda.


If that is the case then the people operating the concession stand were violating their instructions. My son-in-law runs one of the stands, and he told me that they were instructed to provide courtesy cups of ice and access to tap water without charge. As for bottled water, they ran out right after half time, but received an additional delivery of several cases shortly after. They returned about 20 bottles when they closed the stand.

mpj96
09-15-2008, 02:22 PM
BigDuke6, Again, thank you for doing your best in a bad environment.

Agreed.



The immediate response by some is " lawsuit " even to the point of camera documentation to support the claim of the "victim".

Doctorhook,

Your response seems to be a pretty strong overreaction. All Cathy was doing was trying to help. She couldn't supply medical care and did the only thing she could do to help. She documented the situation.

From the posts of others who saw the incident as it occurred she was not the only one surprised and disappointed by what was going on.

Poor medical attention is a fact of life. Sometimes it is caused by a legitimate reason such as lack of resources. Other times that is unfortunately not the cause.

Cathy has clarified that she did not know what was to blame for the lack of official medical attention being provided by the University and was, like others, shocked and appalled by what she observed. She was being a good samaritan in the best way she could by recording the situation.

Cathy didn't know the guy who passed out. Cathy likes Duke -- she was sitting in the Iron Duke section for goodness sake. She had nothing to gain from the situation except the possibility of being drawn into some protracted lawsuit as a witness to the truth.

I don't know Cathy but for my nickel she was being a good citizen and doesn't deserve the derision you have aimed in her direction. I certainly wouldn't want sentiments like yours to discourage her or others like her from doing what they can in a bad situation to be of help.

Raleighfan
09-15-2008, 02:45 PM
If that is the case then the people operating the concession stand were violating their instructions. My son-in-law runs one of the stands, and he told me that they were instructed to provide courtesy cups of ice and access to tap water without charge. As for bottled water, they ran out right after half time, but received an additional delivery of several cases shortly after. They returned about 20 bottles when they closed the stand.

The bit about ice was interesting. Before the game started, I went to a concession stand and asked to BUY a cup of ice....no drink, just ice. The lady at the counter gave me a spiel about how they weren't supposed to give out cups of ice without a drink. I again repeated that I'd like to BUY the cup of ice. She finally caved, gave me a small cup with ice, and at that time another person came along requesting to buy a cup of ice for her water, again the same spiel....

What's the deal with running out of water/ice at an athletic event on a hot day? Same thing happened last spring at the spring football scrimmage....a warm day at noon, not many people there but apparently more than had shown up in previous years. We weren't allowed to bring food/drink into the stadium yet they ran out of food/ice at a time when most people are eating lunch (I'm referring to last spring). If you're going to have a "party", you buy more than you need...at least that's what I was always taught. Seems like someone in charge of provisions needs to wake up/get with the program.

DU82
09-15-2008, 06:51 PM
I completely agree but something even more annoying is the obnoxious blaring and over use of the PA system. Hopefully enough fans will complain to limit its use during the game or at least cutting down the volume.

I'm guessing (especially from your choice of login names and your profile) that you'd prefer that the band play more?

(Can we call you Coach?)

arnie
09-15-2008, 07:06 PM
My wife (a Duke hemotology-oncology nurse, and 5 months pregnant, to boot) hurdled 3-4 rows and was at Dr. Mabry's side, checking his pulse and respiration within about 10 seconds of his collapse. (We were in Row Y.) Once she determined that he was breathing and had a steady pulse, she stepped back, as he needed circulating air, shade and water, not twenty people huddled over him, raising the ambient temp even more.

She and I both believe that the camera platform location, which bottlenecked (north) and blocked (south) foot traffic between the stands and Finch-Yeager contributed to the delay in EMS response. They were forced to cut through the Finch-Yeager tunnel, which was full of people trying to find shade.

BTW, the home side concession shacks were out of bottled water at the beginning of halftime. Furthermore, they wouldn't even sell cups of ice without charging the $3.50 they normally charge for a soda.



Not only were we sitting near you in Sec 27, we were tailgating with friends (and friends of friends) directly adjactent to you in the B-3 lot. LOL. (And we found out, that you can, in fact, fit six adults in a fully-loaded 4Runner.)

Whodathunkit?

To Shark D -

I should have said no Duke provided medical personnel were present in a reasonable amount of time - I recall that a female doctor was helping as well as male military medical tech assisting. It's great that both individuals could help and knew what they were doing.

The police/security personnel showed up quickly and they were upset that no medics were available.

I am also bothered by the repeated lack of water at these games - not only is it unfair to fans in the heat, its really stupid economically.

merry
09-16-2008, 09:52 PM
It seems to me that there are two things Duke can do to mitigate the water problem, one short-term, one long-term. The first is to relax regulations on bringing in water. I can see no logical reason why fans shouldn't be able to bring in coolers with unopened bottles of water. If music ampitheaters allow it, so can Duke.

A data point, the Nationals new baseball stadium in Washington explicitly allows each person to bring in one unopened plastic bottle of water. They also allow single servings of food brought in, just no hard sided coolers or glass. What's the deal with many venues including at Duke acting like a bottle of water a sandwich or a baggie of goldfish crackers for your toddler is a threat to national security?

sue71, esq
09-16-2008, 10:06 PM
A data point, the Nationals new baseball stadium in Washington explicitly allows each person to bring in one unopened plastic bottle of water. They also allow single servings of food brought in, just no hard sided coolers or glass. What's the deal with many venues including at Duke acting like a bottle of water a sandwich or a baggie of goldfish crackers for your toddler is a threat to national security?

It's not a threat to national security. It's a threat to their revenue stream.

allenmurray
09-16-2008, 10:15 PM
You can still bring in a corned beef sandwich from Attman's Deli to Camden Yards. Along with a soda (as long as it is a plastic bottle).

jimsumner
09-16-2008, 11:29 PM
Another reference point.

Walnut Creek Ampitheater in Raleigh

"ITEMS THAT ARE ALLOWED

Blankets
Food in a clear plastic bag
Lawn Chairs (Must be 9 inches or lower to the ground)
Sealed Bottled Water
Snacks & Baby Food
Small cameras (always check day of show info)

ITEMS THAT ARE NOT ALLOWED
Glass bottles/cans
Coolers/Picnic Baskets
Alcohol/Illegal Drugs
Fireworks
Video Recording Equipment
Sharp or dangerous items
Stickers
Professional cameras"

You also can bring sealed bottled water to the Ampitheater at the North Carolina Museum of Art in Raleigh.

DukieInKansas
09-17-2008, 12:04 AM
You can bring in an unopened bottle of water to Arrowhead (KC Chiefs) - can't remember if it is tied to the temperature or not. Interestingly, if you bring in the bottle, you have a cap. If you purchase a bottled water inside the stadium, they do not let you have the cap. Apparently, people will only throw bottles that they purchase in the stadium, not ones they carry in. (You can also carry in anything else you want that they don't find in the pat down entering the stadium.)

Question: Are the concessions run by the University or do they contract them out? (KU contracts the concessions to a third party.) This may be a determining factor in deciding if bottles can be carried in or not.

Jim3k
09-17-2008, 03:43 AM
You can bring in an unopened bottle of water to Arrowhead (KC Chiefs) - can't remember if it is tied to the temperature or not. Interestingly, if you bring in the bottle, you have a cap. If you purchase a bottled water inside the stadium, they do not let you have the cap. Apparently, people will only throw bottles that they purchase in the stadium, not ones they carry in. (You can also carry in anything else you want that they don't find in the pat down entering the stadium.)

Question: Are the concessions run by the University or do they contract them out? (KU contracts the concessions to a third party.) This may be a determining factor in deciding if bottles can be carried in or not.

The Oakland A's allow soft drinks and water (presumably sealed) in plastic bottles. They allow soft-side lunch-size plastic coolers (with ice) and they allow whatever food you can bring in without making a mess. (Fruit and peanuts don't count.) They do not allow liquor, wine or beer or anything in a glass. They don't worry about their revenue stream -- they sell enough because most people won't take the trouble to pre-make food items.

Beer, nachos, hot dogs of various flavors and garlic fries seem to be the concession stands' specialties and there is a type of food court (not always open). They also have a restaurant in the West Side Club. The A's are not losing out by letting people bring in stuff to eat.