college baseball news

[jimsumner]

"The Durham Bulls Athletic Park in Durham, N.C., will be the site of the 2009 Atlantic Coast Conference Baseball Championship, Commissioner John D. Swofford announced today.

The 10,000-seat downtown stadium is home to the city’s Triple-A team and will serve as the host venue for the 13-game tournament May 20-24.

Boston’s Fenway Park was originally scheduled to host this year’s ACC Baseball Championship, but the Fenway Sports Group was forced to defer until 2010 after discovering an in-house scheduling error in mid-August. That left the ACC to pursue a new site for 2009, and the Durham Bulls were able to accommodate the Championship despite the relatively short notice."

Now let's hope the home-town team can make the eight-team-tournament field.

[CameronBornAndBred]

That's cool. Hopefully Duke can make it. Maybe being in Durham it will give them a little extra incentive, I know they got close last year.

[dkbaseball]

Now let's hope the home-town team can make the eight-team-tournament field.

That would be a better accomplishment than people maybe are thinking. The league has gotten as good as any in the country. FSU, Miami, UNC, Ga Tech and Clemson are all top twenty-five type programs. UVA, NCSU and Wake have been quite strong recently. Maryland and VPI draw on a pretty solid talent pool in the Washington metro area, and Baltimore is especially good. This is the time you expect to see some real movement in McNally's program, but in that league it could happen and they still might not make the tournament.

[Inonehand]

McNally has done a fantastic job in the toughest, by far, conference in the country...all with the worst facilities, again by far. I can't think of a school in the state, or any reasonably bigtime program in the country with worse facilities. I believe they will make the tourney this year and that man and his staff will deserve a ton of credit. I am hoping that Duke will build a stadium sooner rather than later. What is there now is a joke. The positives: very good coaching and academics (with great career upside) should mean a lot to recruits and I believe this staff has sold that well. But the kids still visit and see that eyesore. Some just can't get past it.

[sagegrouse]

When it was announced a few weeks ago that Fenway Park was no longer available for the ACC baseball tourney (did they forget that the Red Sox play there?), someone on this Board wrote, "What about DBAP?" That was prescient.

Who was it?

sagegrouse

[jimsumner]

Duke is feeling pretty good about the '09 baseball season. Graduation losses were light--mainly DH Jonathan Nicolla--and Sean's real excited about his freshman class. Nobody bailed early. 1B Nate Freiman is a stud, the middle defense is superb (Duke led the nation in fielding %, IIRC) and depth and experience should be much better. Duke needs to find a DH, a RF and probably another weekend starter. You can never have too much pitching.

Speaking of starters, Chris Manno had a spectacular summer pitching in the Cape Cod League and could be ready for a break-out season.

As far as Coombs Field, I've had some conversations with White about the subject. He's keenly aware that Coombs needs an update every bit as much as Wade, maybe more. I get the impression he sees fund-raising as the first step, with refurbishing Coombs as the second step, so don't hold your breath.

I'm not sure if people know this, but Coombs doesn't even meet the minumum standards to host an NCAA Tournament game. Not enough seats, worse rest room conditions than Wade (seriously), poor media facilities, a sub-standard ground crew. If Duke gets good enough to merit that honor, they would have to pass. So lots of work needs to be done in this area.

But making the ACC Tourny next year is quite doable.

[throatybeard]

McNally has done a fantastic job in the toughest, by far, conference in the country...all with the worst facilities, again by far. I can't think of a school in the state, or any reasonably bigtime program in the country with worse facilities.

Hmm, sounds like our football situation.

[jimsumner]

There actually are a lot of parallels between the two sports. In case you don't know, Duke used to be a dominant team in baseball. Coombs is Wallace Wade, Ace Parker is Bill Murray, and Butters, Slaughter, D'Armi, et. al. are analagous to Harp, McGee, Sloan et. al. Steve Traylor is the closest thing to a Spurrier, Bill Hillier is Franks and Roof, only worse. So that makes McNally the diamond Cutcliffe.

Administrative indifference, aging infrastructure, arrogance, a failure to keep up with the competition, high academic standards are just some of the reasons why Duke hasn't won a bowl game since 1961 and hasn't been to the NCAA baseball tournament since 1961.

That's a long time folks, too long, and I hope that football isn't the only sport that will benefit from increased committment from a university that talks excellence in all endeavors but allowed a proud baseball program to almost fall apart.

End of speech.

[jv001]

There actually are a lot of parallels between the two sports. In case you don't know, Duke used to be a dominant team in baseball. Coombs is Wallace Wade, Ace Parker is Bill Murray, and Butters, Slaughter, D'Armi, et. al. are analagous to Harp, McGee, Sloan et. al. Steve Traylor is the closest thing to a Spurrier, Bill Hillier is Franks and Roof, only worse. So that makes McNally the diamond Cutcliffe.

Administrative indifference, aging infrastructure, arrogance, a failure to keep up with the competition, high academic standards are just some of the reasons why Duke hasn't won a bowl game since 1961 and hasn't been to the NCAA baseball tournament since 1961.

That's a long time folks, too long, and I hope that football isn't the only sport that will benefit from increased committment from a university that talks excellence in all endeavors but allowed a proud baseball program to almost fall apart.

End of speech.

WOW! Did not know Duke baseball had reached such a low point. Thanks Jim for that imformation.

[dkbaseball]

Butters, Slaughter, D'Armi, et. al. are analagous to Harp, McGee, Sloan et. al.

Sorry, Jim, I just can't allow the comparison of Tom Butters to Tom Harp to stand. While Harp was taking Duke football into entrenched mediocrity (ah, those were the days), Butters was making great strides with baseball. Given any sort of decent scholarship money to work with -- we had a total of maybe one and a half in those days, while Clemson had about 25-30 full rides to hand out -- TB would have done great things with Duke baseball.

Continued in next post -- I can't get long posts on here for some reason.

[dkbaseball]

continued from previous post...

Tom was wound a little too tight in game situations, but as a motivator (and recruiter, given what he had to offer) he had no peer. He probably coached pitchers as well as anybody in the country. I believe there are four of us who pitched for Tom in the top ten for best career ERA at Duke (the stats seem to go back to 1950), and two more who probably would have been in the top ten if they'd had enough innings to qualify.

I just thought it was a tragedy when Tom left coaching because he would have been a great one, but obviously it worked out pretty well for the athletic department as a whole.

edit -- The stats for Duke baseball are bungled, and it appears three pitchers from the '50s and early '60s were overlooked in compilation of career ERA, which might bump two of Tom's pitchers out of the top ten. But two of us remain, and if you take away the total innings requirement, there would probably be six in the top 15. Tom could get a pitcher ready to go to work.

[Inonehand]

continued from previous post...

Tom was wound a little too tight in game situations, but as a motivator (and recruiter, given what he had to offer) he had no peer. He probably coached pitchers as well as anybody in the country. I believe there are four of us who pitched for Tom in the top ten for best career ERA at Duke (the stats seem to go back to 1950), and two more who probably would have been in the top ten if they'd had enough innings to qualify.

I just thought it was a tragedy when Tom left coaching because he would have been a great one, but obviously it worked out pretty well for the athletic department as a whole.

edit -- The stats for Duke baseball are bungled, and it appears three pitchers from the '50s and early '60s were overlooked in compilation of career ERA, which might bump two of Tom's pitchers out of the top ten. But two of us remain, and if you take away the total innings requirement, there would probably be six in the top 15. Tom could get a pitcher ready to go to work.

I wish Tom had stayed in coaching too. He was a very respected baseball man that, quite possibly, could have been an all star in the bigs if not for his accident. He knew talent and definitely could talk the game. However, as an AD, he should take tons of the blame for Duke Baseball's continued decline. For a man that wanted, and could have used, more scholarships, he showed no interest at all in providing more funding for the sport he loved and played. While Joe Alleva did not do enough for the program, far from it, he at least increased scholarship levels and did a little bit for the stadium. All Butters did was add the most ill-conceived dugouts known to baseball.

[dkbaseball]

I wish Tom had stayed in coaching too. He was a very respected baseball man that, quite possibly, could have been an all star in the bigs if not for his accident. He knew talent and definitely could talk the game. However, as an AD, he should take tons of the blame for Duke Baseball's continued decline. For a man that wanted, and could have used, more scholarships, he showed no interest at all in providing more funding for the sport he loved and played. While Joe Alleva did not do enough for the program, far from it, he at least increased scholarship levels and did a little bit for the stadium. All Butters did was add the most ill-conceived dugouts known to baseball.

Can't deny it, and I've never understood it.

[roywhite]

Can't deny it, and I've never understood it.

dk---was that any different than the decline of Men's Track during that time? Duke men's track and field had a very competitive team that was actually rising into national prominence in the early 1970's and was able to do it with good student-athletes. But as funding for women's sports increased, the program lost nearly all scholarship money and declined pretty badly.

My assumption has been that Butters' hands were tied as related to the funding of men's "minor" sports during that era, so he worked on fund raising and doing what he could for football and basketball.

Must say...have many good memories of following Duke Baseball and Track during those days (early 1970's).

[jimsumner]

C'mon dk, you know that I wasn't comparing Butters and Harp line item for line item. There simply was a group of coaches in both sports between the glory years and the complete collapse of the two programs who worked hard to keep their programs above water. Butters and Harp are in that group, along with the other coaches I mentioned.

And yes, I know Tom personally and consider him a friend. In fact, he was my freshman PE instructor. He advised me to stick with the academic side of things. Good call. :)

[dkbaseball]

dk---was that any different than the decline of Men's Track during that time? Duke men's track and field had a very competitive team that was actually rising into national prominence in the early 1970's and was able to do it with good student-athletes. But as funding for women's sports increased, the program lost nearly all scholarship money and declined pretty badly.

My assumption has been that Butters' hands were tied as related to the funding of men's "minor" sports during that era, so he worked on fund raising and doing what he could for football and basketball.

Must say...have many good memories of following Duke Baseball and Track during those days (early 1970's).

Yes, nothing like a kegger on the hill on the first base side on a sunny spring day. Made me envious.

I'm not certain about how much Butters' hands were tied WRT men's minor sports. Probably Title IX made it very difficult early in his tenure. But I know that by '89 baseball was doing much better scholarship-wise than it was in the '70s. That year I talked to Butters and he told me that four full rides had been handed out to players who couldn't play a lick, in TB's estimation, without the coach ever having seen them. So he fired the coach. Four full rides would have been considered quite the extravagance in the '70s.

[jimsumner]

Sorry to respond to my own post but I probably should have added some words on Tom Harp. Duke's decision to hire Harp to replace Bill Murray was bizarre to say the least and may have been the first nail in the coffin. But give the man some credit. With the considerable help of Hal McElhaney, he managed to bring such notables as Leo Hart, Wes Chesson, Ernie Jackson, Ed Newman, and Steve Jones to Duke, opened up the offense to an extreme never before seen in ACC football, and went 6-5 in his final season. That 6-5 equals the best mark Duke football had for a quarter century.

He also beat Bobby Bowden.

[dkbaseball]

Before Jim does it, I need to undermine my own point about the strength of the Butters pitching staff by noting that we played in the wooden bat era. After 1973, the pitcher's job got much tougher. If someone like inonehand had pitched in wood bat days, he would have been up near the top of Duke career stats. Chris Capuano, who has thrown a lot of great games in the National League, had a career ERA of about 5.00 at Duke in aluminum bat days.

But I stand on my basic point -- TB put together about as good a staff as could be assembled from walk-ons, partial scholarships and football players (Leo Hart and Bill Hannenberg). The man could coach.

[jimsumner]

Ah, wooden bats. At some level, I'll never get used to the ping of the aluminum bats.

The correlation between pitching success at the college and pro levels can be inexact. Mike Trombley was something like 1-10 one year at Duke and had a very solid major-league career. Go figure.

[chrishoke]

Great thread. I hope Sean has the standing and clout to effectuate neede changes.

[jimsumner]

I'm just pleased that there are other people on this board besides me who give a rodent's derriere about Duke baseball.

[dkbaseball]

I'm just pleased that there are other people on this board besides me who give a rodent's derriere about Duke baseball.

Hey, I was absolutely stunned to see that someone had taken the trouble to compile career stats a few years ago, and even more surprised to find myself prominently positioned in some categories. Guess that says something about where the program has been in recent decades, and where it needs to go in the future.

College baseball has gotten much bigger across the sunbelt in the last 20 years. Some schools, like Rice and Tulane, have made it the flagship program in the athletic department, and put a lot of money into new stadiums. It's only going to get tougher for Duke to keep up.

[ugadevil]

College baseball has gotten much bigger across the sunbelt in the last 20 years. Some schools, like Rice and Tulane, have made it the flagship program in the athletic department, and put a lot of money into new stadiums. It's only going to get tougher for Duke to keep up.

As a sports fan who just finished college, I must say that college baseball was my favorite sport to attend while I was a student. Granted, I was fortunate to go to a school with a great program and great facilities, but I never thought I'd have so much fun at baseball games. The atmosphere when the weather is nice on a spring night is tough to beat. I love going to big football & basketball games, but there's some aspect that made college baseball really stick out to me.

[gotham devil]

I'm just pleased that there are other people on this board besides me who give a rodent's derriere about Duke baseball.

Thanks for talking about it.
I am frankly excited about, as you mentioned, the incoming class (particularly after the MLB deadline passed) and the returning core.

1) Other people have mentioned the scholarship issue in the distant past, do you happen to know how many scholarships that Coach McNally has to work with? Is it six now?

2) Since you've dealt with him personally, do you view McNally as a potential "lifer?"

[Inonehand]

Yes, nothing like a kegger on the hill on the first base side on a sunny spring day. Made me envious.

I'm not certain about how much Butters' hands were tied WRT men's minor sports. Probably Title IX made it very difficult early in his tenure. But I know that by '89 baseball was doing much better scholarship-wise than it was in the '70s. That year I talked to Butters and he told me that four full rides had been handed out to players who couldn't play a lick, in TB's estimation, without the coach ever having seen them. So he fired the coach. Four full rides would have been considered quite the extravagance in the '70s.

Actually, Title IX hamstrung Alleva's tenure more than Butters. Under Alleva I think they added somewhere close to 50 women's scholarships over about a 4 year period. Just like facilities, Duke's women's scholarship totals were way behind. Joe had a lot of making up to do. It was Larry Smith that Butters fired and hired Steve Traylor...oddly enough, I don't think Tom ever saw either of them coach very much.

[jimsumner]

Duke gives the NCAA-maximum 11.7 scholarships for baseball.

I'm sure the plan is for McNally to bring Duke back to national prominence, get his gold watch at 65 and play golf for the rest of his days. He is a Duke alum and seems to have a genuine appreciation for the opportunities of the Gothic Wonderland.

So I suspect he'd be amenable to sticking around for awhile. I've always maintained that I'd rather lose a coach because he/she was so successful that other schools couldn't stay away rather than lose a coach because they go 6-45. Of course, I'd rather have a hall-of-fame coach stick around for 40 years or so. Could happen. :)

Lots of variables here. But if we assume Duke gives McNally the resources necessary to compete in the ACC, then why not assume that Duke would have the resources to retain him? Lots of hypotheticals here, of course.

FWIW, I know some baseball folks at rival schools and they unanimously agree that Duke has made tremendous on-field strides in baseball since McNally took over and they expect that improvement to continue. Now it's time for the folks in the suits and ties to come up with the infrastructure improvements the program needs and deserves.

[dkbaseball]

Now it's time for the folks in the suits and ties to come up with the infrastructure improvements the program needs and deserves.

Too bad one prominent suit is perhaps less liquid after the Bear-Stearns debacle. Or more liquid maybe, but less inclined to identify discretionary funds. I do agree that a fan-friendly stadium would do wonders for the program.

Ugadevil: Georgia is a good example of how the sport has grown. We played them on an unusually nice spring day in '71, and maybe a couple hundred people were there -- typical college baseball crowd of the time. But sometime in the '80s the SEC turned into a great baseball conference, and most venues in the league now routinely put thousands in the stands.

[jimsumner]

A good local example comes from our friends in Charlottesville. The Cavs were awful in baseball, year after year after year. They got fed up with it, got a sugar daddy or two, spent some money, and went for it. Now they are a consistent top-25 and NCAAT team.

This ain't rocket science folks. Takes some vision, some committment of resources, some hard work.

[roywhite]

A good local example comes from our friends in Charlottesville. The Cavs were awful in baseball, year after year after year. They got fed up with it, got a sugar daddy or two, spent some money, and went for it. Now they are a consistent top-25 and NCAAT team.

This ain't rocket science folks. Takes some vision, some committment of resources, some hard work.

Rice and Stanford also prove that good academic schools can compete very well in baseball.

[jimsumner]

People often ask about Rice but there's one significant difference between Rice and Duke. Rice has fished heavily in the juco pond and Duke is adamant that they will not go there.

[dkbaseball]

People often ask about Rice but there's one significant difference between Rice and Duke. Rice has fished heavily in the juco pond and Duke is adamant that they will not go there.

Not so heavily, really. There are two on the roster for this season. That's about how many I remember on the team last year. Given that their coach spent many seasons as coach of San Jacinto JC, he's been pretty restrained in how often he fishes in that pond. And I'm not sure why Duke would want to draw a line in the sand over this. Some juco players can probably handle the academic load. If I recall, K was recruiting a juco guy several years ago -- can't remember his name, from California, son of an NFL receiver, I believe. Brandon Jessie maybe?

[sagegrouse]

As a grad of both schools, my impressions are as follows:

Rice was a very good baseball school, but not great, until it lured Wayne Graham to be the coach. He has had amazing results on the field, in recruiting, and in producing players like Lance Berkman.

Most of the Rice players are from Houston and the Texas Gulf Coast, which is a huge population and baseball area, and only U of Houston having a major college program. Moreover, the number of games and lack of TV coverage encourages players to stay home to play before friends and family.

Rice is in a totally different situation from Duke in terms of momentum, having one NC and seven World Series appearances since 1997.

Sagegrouse

[Inonehand]

A good local example comes from our friends in Charlottesville. The Cavs were awful in baseball, year after year after year. They got fed up with it, got a sugar daddy or two, spent some money, and went for it. Now they are a consistent top-25 and NCAAT team.

This ain't rocket science folks. Takes some vision, some committment of resources, some hard work.

UVa is a very good example but even they had more success than we have enjoyed over the years going to regionals in the 80s and 90s (they won the ACC in 96) before building their new stadium. That stadium and NEW COACH has made a huge difference. We already have the new coach...we need the stadium. I don't think most Duke fans realize how woefully poor our baseball facility is, not even comparing it to others. But, as many of our sports can brag about, we have many positives in place beyond a very good young coaching staff. Academics, medical facilities and training, pretty good weather, great conference. When I say facilities are behind, this includes the stadium in total, coaches offices, weight training.

[Jeffrey]

This ain't rocket science folks.

Hi,

Obviously not.... the Cavs did it!

Best regards,
Jeffrey

[ugadevil]

Hi,

Obviously not.... the Cavs did it!

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Wow. That might be the first time I've ever seen a joke about the intelligence level at UVA. And I live in Virginia Tech territory!