2008 Carolina Panthers thread

[throatybeard]

Rosario, the 2nd string TE, with the TD catch in the final play of the game. 25-24. At San Diego. Delhomme's pass was, if you will, Favrelicious.

[hc5duke]

Hmm I thought Favrelicious meant interception ;)

Dammit, I could have gone to the game, but decided not to... we thought they'd show the game on tv but the 49ers were playing so only got to watch the replays. That must have been a hell of a drive (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/boxscore?gid=20080907024&page=plays):


1st-10, CAR32 2:21 J. Delhomme passed to D. Hackett to the left for 7 yard gain
2nd-3, CAR39 2:15 J. Delhomme passed to M. Muhammad down the middle for 13 yard gain
1st-10, SD48 2:00 J. Delhomme incomplete pass down the middle
2nd-10, SD48 1:48 J. Delhomme passed to D. Hackett to the right for 3 yard gain
3rd-7, SD45 1:24 J. Delhomme passed to D. Rosario down the middle for 11 yard gain
1st-10, SD34 0:58 J. Delhomme incomplete pass to the left
2nd-10, SD34 0:53 J. Delhomme passed to D. Jarrett to the right for 11 yard gain
1st-10, SD23 0:31 J. Delhomme passed to N. Goings down the middle for 3 yard gain
2nd-7, SD20 0:11 J. Delhomme incomplete pass to the left
3rd-7, SD20 0:06 J. Delhomme passed to M. Muhammad to the right for 6 yard gain
4th-1, SD14 0:00 J. Delhomme passed to D. Rosario down the middle for 14 yard touchdown. J. Kasay made PAT

[CameronBornAndBred]

That was awesome, I totally thought we screwed the pooch when we didn't call TO with 20 seconds left. It turned out to be the a hell of a decision. Delhomme even faked out the cameraman on that last throw, I thought it must have been blocked for a second when I didn't see the ball flying to anyone. Great win!

[killerleft]

Yeah! He gave a full pump-fake, reloaded, and threw so quick with lots of velocity. Perfect throw, great catch. I, too, was hollering "Time out, time out.", at the 20 second mark.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I wasn't paying too much attention after the TD, but the recaps state that Kasay kicked the extra point after. I didn't even know they kicked it since it was a moot point, literally. Did the Chargers even line up to block it?

[hc5duke]

I wasn't paying too much attention after the TD, but the recaps state that Kasay kicked the extra point after. I didn't even know they kicked it since it was a moot point, literally. Did the Chargers even line up to block it?

Yeah that *is* odd... I was wondering the same thing, too. Was there maybe ~1 second left in the game clock, and that was used up in the extra point kick?

[throatybeard]

Yeah that *is* odd... I was wondering the same thing, too. Was there maybe ~1 second left in the game clock, and that was used up in the extra point kick?

No. The PAT is an untimed play. I was confused about this at first and then--I think--I figured it out.

Under normal circumstances, the winning team with no time left doesn't kick the PAT, like in OT when you win by 6. BUT, in this game, the TD put Carolina up just one point. So conceivably, San Diego could win by blocking the PAT and running it all the way back, for a 26-25 win. That's why Carolina had to kick the PAT. Conceivably, the safest play would be for them not to kick the PAT, but for the holder to fall on the ball.

[Blue KevIL]

While the NCAA awards 2 points to the defense for a blocked PAT attempt that is returned to the other endzone, the NFL does not.

"The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over. " --- from nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/try)

I could not find the reason a PAT attempt would be required. My only guess is that the PAT needs to be attempted for Points Scored / Points Allowed which is part of the NFL's Tie-Breaker Procedures at the end of the season.

[throatybeard]

While the NCAA awards 2 points to the defense for a blocked PAT attempt that is returned to the other endzone, the NFL does not.

"The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over. " --- from nfl.com (http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/try)

I could not find the reason a PAT attempt would be required. My only guess is that the PAT needs to be attempted for Points Scored / Points Allowed which is part of the NFL's Tie-Breaker Procedures at the end of the season.

OK, good call.

But with that being the case, why doesn't the NFL kick OT PATs? They'd be just as "necessary" for PF/PA calculations.

[BlueDevilJay]

Amazing game!!!! I felt like our boys DOMINATED the Chargers for most of the game, but as usual with the Panthers, the scoreboard didn't reflect it. I still feel like the Rivers' "past the LOS" call was bs, and should have been overturned, leading to a Chargers punt, instead of a TD on the very next play. Either way, the Chargers nearly snuck out with one yesterday, but I honestly feel like the better team won, at least the better team yesterday. I've got the game Tivoed and will be burning that to a DVD. Probably ranks just behind the St Louis double OT game (which I was at live in St Louis by chance) in terms of excitement for me. Wow what a finish, and Rosario is a star in the making. Jake actually has a solid TE to hit now, and we did all this without Steve! The running game is back too!! Man Im excited about this squad! We took down a serious contender for the AFC title in their house....wow, just wow.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Another come-from-behind victory today. What a penalty fest! Nice to see them pull it out, but watching them get a lead early and never surrender will be less stressful! Our rookies are looking good, and Peppers is looking like his old self again. I was worried it was just a pre-season thing, but he seems to the mobile and fast Julius of old.

[TNTDevil]

Another come-from-behind victory today. What a penalty fest!Agreed, my eyes were starting to bleed after watching that first half!
Nice to see them pull it out, but watching them get a lead early and never surrender will be less stressful! Our rookies are looking good, and Peppers is looking like his old self again. I was worried it was just a pre-season thing, but he seems to the mobile and fast Julius of old.Again I agree but, I don't know... Foxy just doesn't seem to like playing with a lead.

Interogative: If not for all of our penalties, would we have *dominated* "Da' Bears"?

[BlueDevilJay]

Agreed, my eyes were starting to bleed after watching that first half! Again I agree but, I don't know... Foxy just doesn't seem to like playing with a lead.

Interogative: If not for all of our penalties, would we have *dominated* "Da' Bears"?

I found myself asking the same question, about the domination part. And in all honesty the game should have been 3-0 at halftime, as Goings seemed to forget to block on that punt attempt. The funny thing is, I said to my dad when watching that stretch of the game, "Watch that false start by Otah come back to haunt us" (on 3rd and 2). That backed us up to 3rd and 7, failure to convert on the down, and then the botched punt as a result. Stupid false starts nearly killed us yesterday. I couldn't figure out for the life of me why we didn't hit them with more quick slants, given the way they crowded the line.

Either way, I'll take a close win over a close loss any day, so 2-0 and sitting atop the NFC South for now. Hopefully we can take it to the Vikes on Sunday, since we play better on the road anyways.

[hc5duke]

Is the game on tv in NC? It's blacked out here because the game wasn't sold out, and I can't even get it on pay-per-view. The Comcast lady I talked to said it's not on tv *anywhere*, and I was curious if it's also blacked out in NC.

[dukegirlinsc]

Is the game on tv in NC? It's blacked out here because the game wasn't sold out, and I can't even get it on pay-per-view. The Comcast lady I talked to said it's not on tv *anywhere*, and I was curious if it's also blacked out in NC.

It's on fox here in Myrtle Beach. The 1:00 game was blacked out here. It's hard to watch though, you're not missing much. Thank goodness they're playing the Raiders, or it would be at least 40-something to 14 right now.

[hc5duke]

It's on fox here in Myrtle Beach. The 1:00 game was blacked out here. It's hard to watch though, you're not missing much. Thank goodness they're playing the Raiders, or it would be at least 40-something to 14 right now.

I'm listening to the game on KSFO and following it online; and you're right, it doesn't sound like I'm missing much. With 4 interceptions in 3 quarters, I would like to borrow Throaty's word and say Delhomme is having a hell of a Favrelicious game.

*edit*
Passer rating of 12.3! Yikes!

[dukegirlinsc]

I'm listening to the game on KSFO and following it online; and you're right, it doesn't sound like I'm missing much. With 4 interceptions in 3 quarters, I would like to borrow Throaty's word and say Delhomme is having a hell of a Favrelicious game.

*edit*
Passer rating of 12.3! Yikes!

Yeah it wasn't his best performance, that's for sure. One of the announcers said "Jake is a good, good, good quarterback. But he's never been great at completing passes." Haha, not sure how much sense that makes? The passes that were incomplete...most of them weren't even CLOSE to a receiver. Let's hope he straightens out and fixes whatever the issue is before next sunday.

But a win is a win, still sitting pretty in first place.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Yeah it wasn't his best performance, that's for sure. One of the announcers said "Jake is a good, good, good quarterback. But he's never been great at completing passes."
I heard that same quote, thought it was pretty asinine. I didn't watch all of the game, flipping back and forth between it and the Steelers, but to Jake's credit the one int. that I saw was a pass the reciever flubbed up into the air and wound up in the Raiders' hands. But a win is a win, especially a solid one against a team at their house. The Panther's have done much better than I expected, and alot of it is to Delhomme's credit.

[dukegirlinsc]

I heard that same quote, thought it was pretty asinine. I didn't watch all of the game, flipping back and forth between it and the Steelers, but to Jake's credit the one int. that I saw was a pass the reciever flubbed up into the air and wound up in the Raiders' hands. But a win is a win, especially a solid one against a team at their house. The Panther's have done much better than I expected, and alot of it is to Delhomme's credit.

Agreed. It's really his first "bad" game of the season, I'm glad to see he's recovered well from surgery, it's seemed to help him a ton. I wouldn't exactly call a win against the Raiders "solid" though. ;) But I'll take it, for sure! :cool:

[CameronBornAndBred]

The Panthers are playing some of the best football I've seen from any team in a long time. Their running game is absolutely insane, and what's even better is it's getting better. Steve Smith was the man before the season, but Deangelo Williams is an amazing WHO?! Next weekend's game got moved to the 8pm slot for the showdown that decides the shape of the playoffs. If they keep playing like they have (Offense AND Defense) the last few games, the home field advantage is their's for the taking.
P.S. I hate to blow smoke up a Hole's butt, but we wouldn't be the team we are this year without the renewed energy of Julius Peppers. He's not only returned to his old self but become a much needed leader to boot.

[Misunderestimated]

Just got home from the game. This Panthers team is absolutely getting better in nearly every aspect (and at the right time, too). I would have liked to seen them get a little more pressure on Cutler in the 1st half, but I can't really complain too much. The energy level of the crowd was really amped up as well. Smitty and Williams are on fire and Peppers is back on track.

[chattpanther]

Go Giants! And I say this as a Panthers fan. If the Giants beat the Cowboys tonight the Panthers are automatically in the Playoffs.

And then after tonight the Giants get run over by the Panthers.

[Highlander]

I was also at the game last night. It was a lot of fun.

What amazes me about the Panthers right now is that they are 11-3, tied for the best record in the NFC (and the best record in team history thru 14 games), leading the division by two games, and playing next week for home field advantage and a first round bye. Despite all that, they could still miss the playoffs entirely. That's amazing.

Granted, all the Panthers have to do is win one of their last two games, or get at least one loss from Dallas, Atlanta, or Tampa Bay to get the wildcard and the odds of at least one of those happening are pretty high. Still, if the Panthers drop 2 in a row and Dallas, Atlanta, and Tampa Bay all win out, this 11-5 team could watch the playoffs from home.

One advantage of the Cowboys win last night is that if the Panthers can beat the Giants next Sunday, they would clinch the #1 seed and the Saints game in week 17 would be meaningless for the Panthers seeding. The Panthers starters would essentially have two weeks off before their first home playoff game. Lose vs. NY, and the Panthers may have to win vs. the Saints just to make the playoffs at all. Similarly, if the Giants win their week 17 game vs. Minnesota would be meaningless, whereas if they lose to the Panthers, the Minnesota game would help determine the other first round bye.

Beating the Giants in NY is a tall order, even if the Giants are sliding and the Panthers are peaking. But given how well their offense is clicking right now, I like our chances. Plus the Panthers have already played Minnesota

One team I want no part of in the playoffs is Pittsburgh. Glad we play in the NFC.

[moonpie23]

i don't really want to play the falcons OR the cowboys.....

[CameronBornAndBred]

One team I want no part of in the playoffs is Pittsburgh. Glad we play in the NFC.
The way both teams are playing, it would not surprise me to see them face each other in the Super Bowl. I think Carolina is the better team, with a better shot of making it all the way, but the Steelers have been incredibly scrappy, finding some amazing ways to win games. I wouldn't know who to root for if they meet, since I was raised a Steelers fan and have adopted the Panthers.

[CLT Devil]

I for one would love to play the Cowboys in the playoffs....they own us in regular season but we've had their number at The Vault. Personally, I dont want to play the Falcons...I hate them and the prospect of losing to them and a rookie QB terrifies me.

[CLT Devil]

The Cardiac Cats never make it easy on us, do they. Just when I thought that I could relax and chill out Brees catches fire. That FG miss by Kasay could have been huge. I think if we go far in the playoffs D. Williams has to at least be in the conversation of MVP.

[-bdbd]

I lived in Charlotte when they got the franchise - am now in DC - and was crestfallen when they announced the team's name (and colors!). They are obviously appealing to the faded-shade-of-blue crowd, which is quite numerous in Charlotte.

Anybody see the Meineke Bowl yesterday? For a relatively minor bowl, the early sell-out and enthusiasm was impressive. I was certainly conflicted on who to root for (A-C-C! A-C-C!) , but must admit the final outcome wasn't all bad.... ;-)

Back to the Charlotte Panthers: I just don't think this team has it. Just can't see them going past the second round. But, alas, I need SOMEONE to root for now that my 'skins totally stunk up the joint this year. :-(

-BDBD

[CLT Devil]

I lived in Charlotte when they got the franchise - am now in DC - and was crestfallen when they announced the team's name (and colors!). They are obviously appealing to the faded-shade-of-blue crowd, which is quite numerous in Charlotte.

Anybody see the Meineke Bowl yesterday? For a relatively minor bowl, the early sell-out and enthusiasm was impressive. I was certainly conflicted on who to root for (A-C-C! A-C-C!) , but must admit the final outcome wasn't all bad.... ;-)

Back to the Charlotte Panthers: I just don't think this team has it. Just can't see them going past the second round. But, alas, I need SOMEONE to root for now that my 'skins totally stunk up the joint this year. :-(

-BDBD



I couldnt disagree with you more on the colors of the Panthers...their uniforms are black, silver and white...with just a small blue accent that is an electric blue, not Tarhole blue. They didnt even come out with the blue alternate unis until about 5 years ago. And it's the CAROLINA Panthers, not Charlotte, in an effort to appeal to folks in S.Carolina...the logo is designed after the image of the two states together on a map. Also, the owner has zero connection to UNC, and thinking a pro sports owner would use the colors of a team to appeal to a fanbase of a college, especially when the colors arent even that close, just seems silly.

Anyway, don't mean to shoot you down but you are incorrect about this one.

As far as their chances, I dont see why we can't make a run. We took the defending champs to OT at their place (after a Kasay missed FG would have won the game for us.) We play in the hardest division in FB (no team has a losing record.) We are a veteran group that has core players that have been to the SB and the NFC Title game...Say what you will about Jake but he's one of the best in the 4th quarter when you need a score. We can run the ball...best duo yardage-wise in the NFL, and we have a huge OL that has been getting Jake good protection. We're also undefeated at home and the number two seed...a trip back to NY wouldnt make us too nervous.

What else do you need to be a contender? We haven't played the pass too well lately (I'm talking to you Ken Lucas) and our run D has been hurt by having Kemo out...other than that I still think we're one of the 4 best teams in the league and have been playing good ball as of late.

Also, what do you have against the team name 'Panthers?' Might not have too many connections to the area, but I don't recall too many Indian Tribes around the DC area. I'm not trying to be mean spirited or anything, but it just seems like you don't follow the team too much...and Panther Nation would love to have you on board for the playoffs.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I think we'll make it to the Championship game at least. It will be nice having a week off to rest and recuperate, was a little scary to see Peppers coming up limping yesterday, although he shook it off and went back in. I love our offense, very balanced on passing and running, and with 2 top RB's that opens up our options even more. I missed most of the 4th yesterday, so I can't judge why the Saints were able to get back in the game. Our defense has been sound, but something wasn't working at the end there and other teams will work on that weakness.
As for the name, I'm pretty sure there are more panthers (albeit not black) running around the mountains of NC and SC than there are tigers in Cincinatti and lions in Detroit.

[killerleft]

The Panthers have a thing for losing big leads. When Kasay missed the field goal, I told my wife it could be important.

The only surprising thing is that anyone would be surprised. I love the Panthers, but John Fox's style of football is kinda like going into the four corners too soon when we have a big lead. We have to be the easiest team in all of football to rally against.

But Kasay hit the winner, just like he usually does.

[wolfpackdevil]

Im a huge Panthers fan, and this has been a great year to watch.

This is probaly the best team since 2003.

I think that they will make it to the super bowl, because of The offense. But the defense needs to do something differently in 2 weeks.

Should be a fun playoffs to watch

[CameronBornAndBred]

We have to be the easiest team in all of football to rally against.
Which means if we make it the Super Bowl, we sure as hell don't want to face the Steelers.

[Acymetric]

What's up with these Panthers tonight? Not looking good at all.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

What's up with these Panthers tonight? Not looking good at all.
After the first drive for a TD, the CHARLOTTE Panthers have been stinking up the joint now down 20-7.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

and now another turnover.

[Acymetric]

Ok, I've thought for years that we need to replace Jake. I decided I was wrong during this season, but if this is the playoff performance I'm gonna get from him I'm ready to draft a QB with our first pick, or trade for one. Really bad plays.

Of course, our defense isn't his fault. Thats another issue.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

27-7. A very deep hole.

[Acymetric]

Fans booing, I'd probably boo too. Those tickets probably weren't cheap.

I think they need to stick with the run for now though. Our backs have a tendency to break for long runs, and the passing game obviously isn't getting it done.

[DukeUsul]

Did these guys just spend the last week reading their press instead of getting ready for the Cardinals?

[pamtar]

Ok, I've thought for years that we need to replace Jake. I decided I was wrong during this season, but if this is the playoff performance I'm gonna get from him I'm ready to draft a QB with our first pick, or trade for one. Really bad plays.

Of course, our defense isn't his fault. Thats another issue.

I think Delhomme may have been holding the team back during the reg season as well. He hasn't been the sole reason for any of our wins yet he has been responsible for a few of our losses. When he's not a turnover machine, he's a above average QB. I hate to say because I really like the guy but he may need to go.

This loss is pathetic.

[Acymetric]

Did these guys just spend the last week reading their press instead of getting ready for the Cardinals?

Well today is Jake's birthday, I'm starting to suspect he started drinking as soon as he woke up today to celebrate. My guess is his gatorade bottle is being used like a flask as well.

Edit: Have Steve Smith return punts.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ballgame.

[RelativeWays]

I think its safe to say Jake DelHomme is playing his last game as the starting QB for the Panthers.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I think its safe to say Jake DelHomme is playing his last game as the starting QB for the Panthers.
I sincerely doubt that.

[DukeUsul]

Wow. Just wow. That's 5 for Jake.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I think it is time to put in Zack Asack.

[DukeUsul]

Look how empty the stadium is. With 10 mins left.

[Acymetric]

I think its safe to say Jake DelHomme is playing his last game as the starting QB for the Panthers.


I sincerely doubt that.

I'm sure a lot of fans will feel that way, but Jake will almost certainly start next season. On the other hand, I've been saying for years that they need to get another QB in behind him as a backup plan, either if he is playing terrible or if he's injured. Both cases have happened, and suitable backups haven't been available.

I would like to see the Panthers draft a good QB next year. Delhomme isn't going to play forever anyway, we need to have someone to take his place in the future. How far in the future will depend on how well he and the team puts this game behind them next season.

Has a QB had a worse playoff performance?

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I've been a die-hard Panther fanatic since they came to NC in '95. I've cheered great teams and hoped against hope for miserable ones to break through. But I'm done. Jake Delhomme has killed great team after great team and we've stuck with him and made no effort to find any sort of backup. As long as that piece of garbage is wearing a Panther's uniform I'm done with the team. I hope we lose every game and never sell a ticket.

Once he's gone I'll be delighted to cheer for the team again and even if we lose every game I'll be screaming my head off for "my" team. Until then, we're just enablers and I'm through. It's not fair to the D, to our great receivers and running backs, and most of all to the fans. :mad:

[Acymetric]

I've been a die-hard Panther fanatic since they came to NC in '95. I've cheered great teams and hoped against hope for miserable ones to break through. But I'm done. Jake Delhomme has killed great team after great team and we've stuck with him and made no effort to find any sort of backup. As long as that piece of garbage is wearing a Panther's uniform I'm done with the team. I hope we lose every game and never sell a ticket.

Once he's gone I'll be delighted to cheer for the team again and even if we lose every game I'll be screaming my head off for "my" team. Until then, we're just enablers and I'm through. It's not fair to the D, to our great receivers and running backs, and most of all to the fans. :mad:

To be fair, is the D playing well at all today? Is anyone playing well today? The receivers might be (Smith and Muhammad usually are) but nobody can tell because nobody can get them the ball. I think they should have put Smith in for punt returns long ago. They've done it before in the playoffs with good results.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

To be fair, is the D playing well at all today?
In a word, no. Granted several "drives" have been short yardage,but not all.

[Acymetric]

The issue with Jake is that he is a decent QB who occasionally has a really great game, but when he has a bad game, he does it in spectacular fashion. He isn't a guy you can legitimately build a franchise around, yet we haven't even bothered getting a mediocre guy to back him up. Do we even have a second string QB?

I also blame Fox for some of this. Why did we give up running so early? We completely abandoned the running game while it was still 1st half, and still manageable. Not happy with any of this. And while mentioning other parts of the team not playing well...O-line. And if the O-Line doesn't get it done, everyone looks worse, and they already looked bad to begin with...

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

To be fair, is the D playing well at all today? Is anyone playing well today? The receivers might be (Smith and Muhammad usually are) but nobody can tell because nobody can get them the ball. I think they should have put Smith in for punt returns long ago. They've done it before in the playoffs with good results.

The D has definitely been mediocre, but given the time they have spent on the field and the field position they've had, I find it pretty hard to fault them. This isn't the soul-wrenching Asack game, but it has a similar feel. That first fumble killed a lot of momentum and watching your QB throw it away over and over (and over and over and over and counting) just kills a defense.

And I can't even begin to imagine what is going through Steve Smith's head. It's like having the best center in the NCAA but a PG who just can't get him the ball. Ever. If Jake was having a bad game that would be one thing. But this has been him MO for YEARS. He's a gambler who kills you half the time and is only a bit above average even when his big gambles pay off. The fact that he's still here makes me seriously question the Panthers as an organization and, although I love most things about the guy, have serious doubts about Foxy as well.

[Acymetric]

So, what big moves would people like to see the Panthers make this off season? Specific players to sign/trade for/draft, positions that need work in general, etc.

I hesitate to quit on Jake because I honestly like the guy, but we need to at least look at other QB options. The Panthers have a great pair of running backs and a great set of receivers, and a mediocre QB to match. If we had one of the top 16 QBs in the league think how good that offense would be.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

So, what big moves would people like to see the Panthers make this off season? Specific players to sign/trade for/draft, positions that need work in general, etc.

I hesitate to quit on Jake because I honestly like the guy, but we need to at least look at other QB options. The Panthers have a great pair of running backs and a great set of receivers, and a mediocre QB to match. If we had one of the top 16 QBs in the league think how good that offense would be.

You can probably guess where I'd start :D But I don't think we need a great QB, just one who won't hurt us. The term "game manager" is a cliche and often used for mediocre guys, but I think that's all we really need. Hand off to the RB's, pass the ball to Moose and Smith (and how many teams have better receivers than that?) and don't make risky or wild throws. We don't need Tom Brady and we REALLY don't need a Brett Favre-like "gunslinger", just a solid and safe QB.

Otherwise, I'm a bit baffled by the inconsistency of our lines, especially our O-line and I think we could stand to upgrade a bit there. The fact that we're so good some weeks and not on others might to point to coaching issues as well.

[Highlander]

Ok, I've thought for years that we need to replace Jake. I decided I was wrong during this season, but if this is the playoff performance I'm gonna get from him I'm ready to draft a QB with our first pick, or trade for one. Really bad plays.

Of course, our defense isn't his fault. Thats another issue.

Well, we don't have a first round pick this year. We traded it to get Jeff Otah in this year's draft. So much for that idea.

Jake was really, really, really, really, really, really bad tonight. I've never seen him play worse.

[Highlander]

I've been a die-hard Panther fanatic since they came to NC in '95. I've cheered great teams and hoped against hope for miserable ones to break through. But I'm done. Jake Delhomme has killed great team after great team and we've stuck with him and made no effort to find any sort of backup. As long as that piece of garbage is wearing a Panther's uniform I'm done with the team. I hope we lose every game and never sell a ticket.

Once he's gone I'll be delighted to cheer for the team again and even if we lose every game I'll be screaming my head off for "my" team. Until then, we're just enablers and I'm through. It's not fair to the D, to our great receivers and running backs, and most of all to the fans. :mad:

C'mon. Jake was putrid tonight, no getting around it. Go ahead and hang the loss solely on him if you like (I won't argue with you on that). But keep in mind that this "piece of garbage" was 5-2 in the playoffs prior to today, took you to an NFC championship game and a Super Bowl, and led the team to a 12-4 record this year. Without him in the lineup, we would have been dead last in the league. Look back one season if you don't believe me.

I agree the Panthers need a backup because Jake isn't getting any younger. I'd rather they pick up a backup from another team (a la Matt Cassell) than draft a QB, because it's rare to find a Matt Ryan.

When Jake is on, he's really good. But when he gets rattled early (like tonight) he never recovers and it just snowballs. Same thing happened against Minnesota earlier this year with the 2q fumble.

[Highlander]

The D has definitely been mediocre, but given the time they have spent on the field and the field position they've had, I find it pretty hard to fault them. This isn't the soul-wrenching Asack game, but it has a similar feel. That first fumble killed a lot of momentum and watching your QB throw it away over and over (and over and over and over and counting) just kills a defense.

And I can't even begin to imagine what is going through Steve Smith's head. It's like having the best center in the NCAA but a PG who just can't get him the ball. Ever. If Jake was having a bad game that would be one thing. But this has been him MO for YEARS. He's a gambler who kills you half the time and is only a bit above average even when his big gambles pay off. The fact that he's still here makes me seriously question the Panthers as an organization and, although I love most things about the guy, have serious doubts about Foxy as well.

You're aware that Smitty was in the top 5 in the league in receptions this year (after spotting everyone two games), and had 100+ in 5 of our last 6 games. He made the freakin' pro bowl for crying out loud. It's not like he's been throwing the ball to himself. Jake certainly didn't have a problem getting him the ball against Green Bay. Or Tampa Bay. Or New Orleans.

I agree, our defense, especially our secondary, hasn't been playing well in weeks. This is the third team in a row to put up 30+ on us. They gave up 21 points in the fourth quarter 2 weeks ago and almost cost us the division. Larry Fitzgerald had over 150 yards receiving before halftime, and that was on like 5 catches. Lately, the Offense has been bailing them out. Tonight, they played just as bad.

Do you honestly think Carolina would have won tonight with a Joe Flacco type game manager as QB?

[Acymetric]

C'mon. Jake was putrid tonight, no getting around it. Go ahead and hang the loss solely on him if you like (I won't argue with you on that). But keep in mind that this "piece of garbage" was 5-2 in the playoffs prior to today, took you to an NFC championship game and a Super Bowl, and led the team to a 12-4 record this year. Without him in the lineup, we would have been dead last in the league. Look back one season if you don't believe me.

I have to disagree with you there. Certainly if you take Jake out and replace him with a worse QB the team would do worse. But there are clearly better QB's out there. They basically gave up last season because they didn't want to acquire a good QB to replace him, so they just grabbed Vinnie T. and waited for Jake to come back. The thing is, Jake is no Tom Brady, Payton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Cassel, Matt Ryan, Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, Philip Rivers...I could go on. The point is, the team can probably do better. Like I said, I like Jake, and I'm not ready to give away his starting job, but this was a bad time to have such a spectacularly bad game. I'm not sure if he, the team, or the fanbase will be able to completely get over that performance.

Jake obviously has the skills to get the ball to his receivers, but he has some pretty good recievers to make his job a little easier. I think there are QBs that could do better than Jake at getting the ball out there. I do not believe that Jake is in the top half of starting QBs in the NFL right now. Does anyone disagree? If we had a better QB, would that somehow hurt the team? I think its an option worth at least considering.

[rockymtn devil]

Not being a Panthers fan--and having read only a couple of the recent posts in this thread--I'll add some thoughts on the loss. Blame Delhomme if you like, but, IMO, he didn't lose this game. Instead, he was unable to win it. The Panthers are a running football team. Running teams are not strong at coming back from behind because, generally, they are about ball control as opposed to quick strike. So, when the defense allowed the Cardinals to get ahead early 17-7 (aided by turnovers) that was the game. The defenses' inability to keep Arizona out of the end zone early doomed the Panthers because the game had to be won by a QB who is not capable of winning a game with his arm. Blame the defense for this loss.

The notion that a care-taker QB would've won tonight is ridiculous. Care-takers don't come from behind. Can you win a Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme? Of course. Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl after all.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I could echo most of the thoughts on Delhomme in this thread, I blame the loss on him. The turnovers were all his responsibility, so he gets to be the goat. As some have stated, when he is working well he's hard to stop, he has led the team plenty of times to comeback wins and held leads in close games. For whatever reason it didn't happen tonight in the Panthers biggest game in years.

Ozzie's Asack comment still has me laughing.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

We wouldn't have been behind if Delhomme hadn't coughed up a fumble and a horrible INT on back to back drives in the first quarter. Our D wasn't good, but the majority of their points came from the amazing field position they had based on, you guessed it, turnovers. With the advantages we had (don't forget our running game looked amazing on that first drive before Delhomme put us behind the eight ball and the coaches once again trusted him to make plays) we would have killed Arizona with a game "manager" like Flacco. With a lead and all the momentum he'd just hand off to our amazing RB's and make smart passes to Smith and Moose. Delhomme created the problem and then spent the rest of the night exacerbating it.

Look, by all accounts Jake is a great person and when he's on he can look pretty good (although I think most of the credit has to go to Smith, Moose, and our other receivers who cover for Delhomme's mistakes with amazing catches). But he has been pretty bad for the last half of the season. And more than that, he's been making really bad decisions for YEARS. He's been the QB for some playoff success, but I don't think it's fair to say that he "took" us anywhere. Our D, a number of amazing RB's, and Steve Smith did that.

If a guy has a bad game, that's tough but acceptable. But he's just never learned what is and is not a good throw. That "gunslinger" mentality may be ok for Brett Favre (although I think he's wildly overrated) but with the team we have and that Foxy wants to build we don't need a gunslinger. In fact, that's the only way to take an amazing team and have them out in the first round to the Arizona Cardinals.

Anyway, whatever your feeling is about Jake, I think everyone agrees that we need to get a new QB, at least as a backup and building for the future ASAP. The fact that we had nobody behind him, especially after last season, is mind-boggling to me. Maybe if he could have taken a series off he could have gotten him head right. But either way we have a major hole at QB and, sadly, no first round draft pick. This has been a glaring issue for years and the fact that we haven't even seriously tried to address it drives me crazy.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ozzie's Asack comment still has me laughing.
I'm glad somebody liked it! I was sort of hoping that FDA was reading this thread :rolleyes:

As to the QB future in Charlotte, barring a major trade, Jake is it for next season. Yes, they do need a backup to groom to take his place. There are five top quarterbacks in this year's draft (as shown on ESPN early on Saturday), and Tim Tebow is listed as the fifth one because most folks think he should change positions int he NFL. Five is not quite seven (Dan Marino was the 7th QB taken in the early 80's draft that gave us so many all-pro QBs). Maybe, just maybe, the Panthers can trade up to a low first round pick and find a future gem.

[captmojo]

This game was won by the lack of championship caliber talent in the Panther's defensive secondary. Couldn't anyone be assigned to shadow Fitzgerald? :cool: The last game, against Drew Brees, showed their vulnerable ineptitude and the Card's were smart enough to take advantage.

Turnovers never help, but this wasn't all Jake's fault. Worst time to play your worst game, pal. Best time for AZ to show their best. Where has it been hiding all season? Keep this level of play up and they'll be holding the Lombardi.



By the way, I'm bummed out by this and only a Wake win over the holes can salvage the next 12 hours.

[Misunderestimated]

What a crushing way to end the season. Feels a little like the Duke-LSU game a couple years back in the NCAA tourney. The first drive of the game was beautiful - after that, the team comes unglued. There was not one aspect of the Panthers showing to hang your hat on. From kickoffs going out of bounds, interceptions, allowing Fitzgerald to be wide effin open! Now its back to the drawing board. I fully expect Jake to be at the helm next season. I'll be happy to help Peppers load up his moving van.

If Wake beats UNC tonight, Charlotte will be in full-scale crisis mode. Grief counselors will be needed on Monday.

[ironduke2009]

I was very disappointed in our Panthers last night. Jake picked the most important game of the season to have a terrible night. I like many of the folks who have posted on here think we can get a better QB, but it it seems like the Panthers will keep him forever. I do like Jake as a person, he is a great guy, just not a premier QB...

[Highlander]

Look, by all accounts Jake is a great person and when he's on he can look pretty good (although I think most of the credit has to go to Smith, Moose, and our other receivers who cover for Delhomme's mistakes with amazing catches). But he has been pretty bad for the last half of the season. And more than that, he's been making really bad decisions for YEARS. He's been the QB for some playoff success, but I don't think it's fair to say that he "took" us anywhere. Our D, a number of amazing RB's, and Steve Smith did that.



Your memory is a little selective. Jake's threw for 5 TDs, ran for 2 more and had only 3 INT's over the last 7 games of the season. The 8th game was against Oakland and he had 4 INTs, but the Panthers won anyway. During that time his bad decision to throw deep to Smith won the Green Bay and New Orleans games after the defense had given up the lead late in the 4Q. The Panthers offense has played it's best football in years over the second half of the season, and Jake has to get some of the credit for that IMO. Throw in the Chargers game at the beginning of the year, and that's THREE times this season alone that Jake engineered a game winning, come from behind win for us, two of which were in the "last half of the season" when he was playing so poorly. No way a QB like Flacco makes those throws, so in all likelihood the Panthers lose those three games, the division, and possibly the playoffs altogether.

Also, you forget that the Panthers DID go out and get a solid backup for Jake last year (it was the guy who used to start for the Texans. Harrington? Was that his name? Let's just call him "gloves"), and everyone thought he would challenge Jake for the starting job. When Jake got hurt, he had the job outright. Problem was, he ended up sucking royally, and the Panthers had to find a serviceable backup midseason. All they could find was an aging veteran (Testaverde) and a third stringer (Moore) both of which outplayed the guy they got to replace Jake.

Jake is definitely a risk taker/gambler/etc. When it works, which is most of the time, no one complains. When it doesn't, like last night, everyone throws him under the bus. That's part of what you get with a mantra like that. I am constantly amazed how much of a free pass the Defense at Carolina gets. They haven't played well in weeks, yet all anyone talks about is how Jake couldn't keep the offense on the field longer, or how their hurt, or whatever kind of excuse they can think of.

I know that no matter how good (or bad) Jake is, some people are done with Jake. However, I need to look no farther than the Panthers 7-9 season last year without him, or at NC State's who went from top half of the conference to bottom half in a matter of years because they were "done" with Herb Sendek to see what rolling the dice on a new QB could mean.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I need to look no farther than at NC State's who went from top half of the conference to bottom half in a matter of years because they were "done" with Herb Sendek to see what rolling the dice on a new QB could mean.
Now that's a mixed metaphor if I've ever heard one. :rolleyes:

[Acymetric]

Highlander:

I'll ask you again. Is Jake one of the 16 best starters in the league right now? Who is below him? Do you really think they couldn't find a better QB? I'm not saying they should toss him, but I've been saying for years they need to get another starting caliber QB on the team to challenge him. You mentioned some of his late game heroics to Steve Smith, but I recall 2 of those. One was a mistake by a defender who could have easily knocked it down, the other was a spectacular job by Steve Smith. Jake certainly gets credit for getting the ball there, but I give about 80-90% of the credit to Smith for being one of the best receivers in the league. I would prefer to have a QB that could get the ball to Smith and the other receivers like that without having 4 interception games.

I did say that I didn't think the defense (or any other part of the team) played well, including the coaches. But the defense didn't give the ball to the Cardinals with incredible field position over and over again. The defense didn't throw interceptions close to the endzone where an incompletion would have yielded at least a field goal. There need to be a lot of changes made to this team, and change at QB needs to at least be considered.

[Highlander]

Highlander:

I'll ask you again. Is Jake one of the 16 best starters in the league right now? Who is below him? Do you really think they couldn't find a better QB? I'm not saying they should toss him, but I've been saying for years they need to get another starting caliber QB on the team to challenge him. You mentioned some of his late game heroics to Steve Smith, but I recall 2 of those. One was a mistake by a defender who could have easily knocked it down, the other was a spectacular job by Steve Smith. Jake certainly gets credit for getting the ball there, but I give about 80-90% of the credit to Smith for being one of the best receivers in the league. I would prefer to have a QB that could get the ball to Smith and the other receivers like that without having 4 interception games.

I did say that I didn't think the defense (or any other part of the team) played well, including the coaches. But the defense didn't give the ball to the Cardinals with incredible field position over and over again. The defense didn't throw interceptions close to the endzone where an incompletion would have yielded at least a field goal. There need to be a lot of changes made to this team, and change at QB needs to at least be considered.

So Jake shouldn't make throws where the defender makes a mistake or when Smith can make a great play? You're point is essentially anything good that happens in the passing game is in spite of Jake, where anything bad is because of him. You can't have it both ways. If Jake doesn't make those throws, the Panthers lose those games plain and simple. If you'd rather have a conservative QB who would have handed off on a run up the middle rather than taking a chance that his all pro receiver could make a play, that's your call. Personally, I'm glad Jake gave Smitty the chance to win the game rather than make a conservative throw underneath and go home with an L.

What I said is that the Panthers DID get a starting QB last year to challenge Jake, and that he couldn't deliver even when Jake was hurt. Based on the numbers, Jake is pretty much in the middle of the pack in the league, just above the midway point. So yes, I think he's in the top half of the league.

Regular Season Games this season with 3 or more INTs:
Drew Brees - 4
Aaron Rodgers - 2
Rivers - 0
Warner - 2
P. Manning - 0 (although he had a ton with 2)
E. Manning - 3
Delhomme - 2

Delhomme's ranks among starting QBs:
Yards - 15
TD's - 19
INT's T-11 w/ P. Manning

The Panthers need a reliable backup. What I'm saying is that they could do a lot worse than 12-4 Jake Delhomme, and if you roll the dice on a new QB, it's a lot more likely you end up with a washout than the next Eli Manning (who was also considered a washout/average QB until last season's miracle run).

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Your memory is a little selective.

This season Jake had 15 TD's and 12 INT's in the regular season (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nfcwest/0-7-98/No-denying-Cardinals--makeover.html) and 0TD's/5INT's in the post season. That's a total of 15 TD's and 17 INT's for the season. Since he came here in 2003 (and ignoring last season when he was out) he averaging about 14 INT's per season (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=1693).

Look, we all agree he's a gambler and he certainly goes on some hot streaks that look good, especially since he has Smith and Moose to make some great catches to cover for bad/risky passes. Nonetheless, his numbers have been fairly consistent throughout his career and he just hasn't gotten better about taking care of the ball. That would be a problem for any team, but it's especially painful for a team that wants to focus on ball-control.


Also, you forget that the Panthers DID go out and get a solid backup for Jake last year.

I guess I'd argue that the results (and his past history of being a complete bust) makes it clear that we DIDN'T get a solid backup. We got a high draft pick who had already proved to be unsuitable and confirmed what was known about him.

I completely agree that our D has been overrated since we stopped using steroids after the Super Bowl season, and I think Pep may be the most over-hyped player in the NFL right now. Jake didn't lose the game by himself, although he has to get the lion's share (should we reconsider this phrase now that a "Lion's share" is 0-16?) of the blame. But the fact is he's ALWAYS a threat to lose a game for us. He takes major risks when we don't need them and he's never been able to correct that in his decade in the league.

We have one of the 4-5 best receiving corps in the NFL and Smitty particularly makes some huge plays. We also have a ground game that was GREAT this season. What this team needs is a QB who won't kill us and can use the amazing weapons he has around him. What we have is a riverboat gambler who goes for the home run even when it clearly isn't there. That's who he is and there's no sign he will ever be anything else. If you think we can't find a better QB that's really sad, but you may be correct. But gambler's don't make good QB's, especially for teams based on D and the ground game. He the wrong guy on the wrong team and I lost faith in him a long time ago. The fact that we've never made any serious effort to rectify that has led me to lose faith in the organization as well.

[Highlander]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=pass&season=2&year=2008

Jake's regular season QB Passer Rating of 84.7 was #18th in the league. Considering that Carolina emerged as primarily a running team, it's not altogether surprising his rating is where it is. Jake's rated higher than other playoff QB's like Ben Rothlesberger, Joe Flacco, and Kerry Collins. Also, there are a derth of QB's in the league with rankings between 84 and 88, which makes them all about the same in my mind. Among them are three other "better" playoff QBs like Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, and Donovan McNabb.

Also of note, of the QBs ranked #4-10 on this list, only one made the playoffs.

[Highlander]

We have one of the 4-5 best receiving corps in the NFL and Smitty particularly makes some huge plays. We also have a ground game that was GREAT this season. What this team needs is a QB who won't kill us and can use the amazing weapons he has around him. What we have is a riverboat gambler who goes for the home run even when it clearly isn't there. That's who he is and there's no sign he will ever be anything else. If you think we can't find a better QB that's really sad, but you may be correct. But gambler's don't make good QB's, especially for teams based on D and the ground game. He the wrong guy on the wrong team and I lost faith in him a long time ago. The fact that we've never made any serious effort to rectify that has led me to lose faith in the organization as well.

He did rush for 2 TD's as well, and threw for one late in the game last night so that puts him at 17 to 12 for the regular season, and 1/5 for the postseason. I listed stats for other QBs in the league. Ryan was 16/11 for the regular season and had a rating of 87.7, a statistical average with Delhomme. Instead they're erecting statues to Ryan in Atlanta and people are ready to run Jake out of town on a rail.

Second, I'd argue that we don't have one of the top 4-5 receiving corps in the league. We have one of the top 4-5 RECEIVERS in the league, and a pretty good situational guy who is a great blocker (Moose). Our 3rd receivers and tight ends are below average pass catchers. Arizona, New Orleans, New York, Indianapolis, Green Bay, Dallas, and New England I would argue all are better than us, top to bottom. And that's off the top of my head.

Carolina has only had one season where they had a losing record with Jake, and they finished 7-9. In his six years they've made the playoffs three times, the NFC Championship game twice, and the Super Bowl once. In the Super Bowl, the guy was sensational, and set a number of QB records in the game, including one for QB rating IIRC. The guy may take risks, but his career record is 49-31, so his gambles pay off more often than not. Look no further than the games I mentioned, one of which (San Diego) he won on the road this year without Smith on a game winning TD that didn't go to Moose either.

The Panthers needed a lot of help after last season. Fox knew he had to produce this year so he traded draft picks to get both Stewart and Otah in this year's draft. They rolled the dice that Jake would be fully healthy. All three of those gambles worked out superbly, and are part of the main reason we went from 7-9 to 12-4. Their first round draft pick from this year is now late first round due to their record. Would you have traded either Stewart or Otah for a backup QB in last year's draft instead? I wouldn't have.

As for next year, signing a high profile QB like McNabb or Cassell will likely cost Carolina some coin and any chance they have of resigning Peppers. Even if losing Pep is OK to you, you've got to fill his spot as well as getting another QB.

Yesterday's loss stings for me, it really does. Jake had his worst game as a pro, no doubt about it. Still, it was an important game, but it's still just one game. Without Jake, I doubt the Panthers even make the playoffs this year, much less get the #2 seed, so I am just trying to keep things in perspective. I'm fine with the Panthers starting to look at a backup QB next season, but I think we've got bigger problems at DE and in the secondary than we do at the backup QB position. Deciding whether to resign Peppers and whether to keep Ken Lucas are #1 and #2 on my list.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I think you're giving Jake too much credit for our success and our superlative receivers (Smitty obviously, but Moose is really underrated, IMO) and RB's (and our D which is overrated but still very good) too little, but that's obviously subjective. There are, IMO, 20-25 QB's who would have taken this team to the playoffs. With a more conservative QB we may have 1-2 fewer wins since Jake's gambles paid off, but we'd also still be playing next weekend.

I don't think the Ryan comparison is good simply because he's a rookie exceeding expectations. Folks are excited based on what they expect him to become. Jake has become what he is. He ain't getting better. In fact his numbers have been getting worse as his TD's have declined every season since 2004.

But the real issue is not whether he's a "good" QB. It's that he's an unreliable one. His high-risk approach (which still led to more INT's than TD's this season and if we're adding rushing then we have to add his 3 fumbles as well) just doesn't work with what Foxy is trying to build. If we were built to air it out a lot and try to outgun teams his TO's might not be such a big deal. But we're built to run and then use the pass for big plays. But when your QB is as (or this season more) likely to make a big play for the other team, it kills everything you're trying to do. There are systems that maximize what Jake brings to the table. But whether you call him a "game manager" a "caretaker" or whatever, our system needs a smart and safe QB. Right now it's like we have Taylor King as our PG in a Herb Sendek system.

[Highlander]

I think you're giving Jake too much credit for our success and our superlative receivers (Smitty obviously, but Moose is really underrated, IMO) and RB's (and our D which is overrated but still very good) too little, but that's obviously subjective. There are, IMO, 20-25 QB's who would have taken this team to the playoffs. With a more conservative QB we may have 1-2 fewer wins since Jake's gambles paid off, but we'd also still be playing next weekend.

I don't think the Ryan comparison is good simply because he's a rookie exceeding expectations. Folks are excited based on what they expect him to become. Jake has become what he is. He ain't getting better. In fact his numbers have been getting worse as his TD's have declined every season since 2004.

But the real issue is not whether he's a "good" QB. It's that he's an unreliable one. His high-risk approach (which still led to more INT's than TD's this season and if we're adding rushing then we have to add his 3 fumbles as well) just doesn't work with what Foxy is trying to build. If we were built to air it out a lot and try to outgun teams his TO's might not be such a big deal. But we're built to run and then use the pass for big plays. But when your QB is as (or this season more) likely to make a big play for the other team, it kills everything you're trying to do. There are systems that maximize what Jake brings to the table. But whether you call him a "game manager" a "caretaker" or whatever, our system needs a smart and safe QB. Right now it's like we have Taylor King as our PG in a Herb Sendek system.

You didn't answer my question about draft picks, but whatever.

I think you're not giving Jake any credit whatsoever for what has been the six best years this franchise has ever seen. Our D is not very good. It's not even good. It's average at best, and getting older ever year. It's been living off of reputation since the Super Bowl, and had to be carried by Jake and the offense for the entire second half of the season. Until we get a true, shut down, top 5 defense, a game manager QB would cripple our high powered offense and expose our defense for what it is. Average.

Without a gunslinger QB this year, Carolina finishes at best 9-7 and has to play at Arizona or Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs. Personally, I think 12-4, playing at home, and taking my chances with a gunslinger is a better situation, but if you'd rather have the former, so be it. I won't argue with you.

At this point, I think the best thing that could happen to Carolina was to have Jake leave and have this team muddle around at 6-10 or 4-12 for a few seasons so people could get some perspective. Just look at our opponents. The Cardinals have a legitimate shot to win the NFC and the Super Bowl for the first time in forerver, surprising as that may seem. They haven't won a division in over 30 years. Carolina's done it three times since 1995, two of which with Jake in the last six years.

Believe me, we could do a lot worse than Jake, last night notwithstanding.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I think this thread has run its course. Probably time to take it off line and PM each other to your heart's content!

[captmojo]

I think this thread has run its course. Probably time to take it off line and PM each other to your heart's content!

Before it leaves in the dust, I'd like to mention that there were many QBs in the NFL that were better in talent than Bart Starr, yet he won championships.

[CameronBornAndBred]

By the way, I'm bummed out by this and only a Wake win over the holes can salvage the next 12 hours.
Salvaged.

[captmojo]

Before it leaves in the dust, I'd like to mention that there were many QBs in the NFL that were better in talent than Bart Starr, yet he won championships.


Salvaged.

Glory hallelujah! :):):)

[Highlander]

Not trying to re-open the debate, but I thought this article pretty much covers the points (and counter points) that we hashed through here, with some additional stats:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/story/470999.html

One interesting point - at the end it covers what options for QB the Panthers realistically have. They are summarized as:
Roster:
Matt Moore, Brett Basanez, Josh McCown (broke his leg in preseason)
Free Agents:
Warner, Collins, Garcia, all of which are old or older than Delhomme
Matt Cassell, althought the Patriots may Franchise him.
Others are Rex Grossman, Jon Kitna, Kyle Boller, Charlie Batch, J.P. Losman, Patrick Ramsey, J.T. O'Sullivan and Byron Leftwich.
Draft:
Josh Freeman of Kansas State or Ball State's Nate Davis potentially.