Duke's Backcourt

[RainingThrees]

How would you rank Duke's backcourt of Paulus, Smith, Williams, Scheyer, Pocius, and Henderson compared to the rest of the country?

[Wander]

Off the top of my head, UNC and Villanova's are close... but Duke's backcourt is the best I can think of.

[jv001]

Our backcourt looks very good on offense, but not as good on defense. We do have Nolan, Gerald and E-Will that can play better than average on the ball defense, but Greg and Jon are not so good (average at best). However looking at all facets of the game I guess we are in the top 5 backcourts in the country. Lot's of fire power.

[RainingThrees]

I've been trying to think of teams with better backcourts than Duke but it seems many of the teams with excellent backcourts lost keyplayers. Texas lost DJ Augustine, Memphis lost CDR and Derrick Rose, Kansas lost several experienced players also. Unfortunately UNC lost nobody and will have an outstanding backcourt.

[BlueintheFace]

I'd put UCONNvicts as a strong competitor for the top spot... Austrie, Price, Dyson, and introducing Kemba Walker... that's a hell of a backcourt...

[shadowfax336]

Our backcourt looks very good on offense, but not as good on defense. We do have Nolan, Gerald and E-Will that can play better than average on the ball defense, but Greg and Jon are not so good (average at best). However looking at all facets of the game I guess we are in the top 5 backcourts in the country. Lot's of fire power.

Scheyer... defense...
why do people keep saying that he can't play defense???

What exactly is the issue with his d? How is his on the ball D any worse than Geralds? (I'm not saying he's equally valuable as a defender, because Gerald is capable of making some big plays on the inside with blocks, but simply out on the perimeter tell me how Gerald is any better)

[SMO]

Our backcourt looks very good on offense, but not as good on defense. We do have Nolan, Gerald and E-Will that can play better than average on the ball defense, but Greg and Jon are not so good (average at best). However looking at all facets of the game I guess we are in the top 5 backcourts in the country. Lot's of fire power.

Do you think any teams' backcourts are better on defense?

[Lord Ash]

Scheyer... defense...
why do people keep saying that he can't play defense???

What exactly is the issue with his d? How is his on the ball D any worse than Geralds? (I'm not saying he's equally valuable as a defender, because Gerald is capable of making some big plays on the inside with blocks, but simply out on the perimeter tell me how Gerald is any better)

Thank you. I've been saying the same thing for a while. I feel like Jon doesn't get credit for his D the same way he doesn't get credit for his athleticism.

[kramerbr]

Our backcourt looks very good on offense, but not as good on defense. We do have Nolan, Gerald and E-Will that can play better than average on the ball defense, but Greg and Jon are not so good (average at best). However looking at all facets of the game I guess we are in the top 5 backcourts in the country. Lot's of fire power.

Jon Scheyer is a very good defender. He is extremely smart on the court and has a nack for finding the ball (above average rebounder for a guard). If you noticed in many of the games when Nelson wasn't guarding the other teams best player, it was often Scheyer.

[jv001]

Scheyer... defense...
why do people keep saying that he can't play defense???

What exactly is the issue with his d? How is his on the ball D any worse than Geralds? (I'm not saying he's equally valuable as a defender, because Gerald is capable of making some big plays on the inside with blocks, but simply out on the perimeter tell me how Gerald is any better)

Well Gerald is quicker and can make up for getting beat with his incredible leaping ability. I did not say Jon was a bad defender, but average. I long for the Hurley, Amaker, King on the ball defense. By playing the other team's point guard, Jon and Greg get exposed more than the other guys and it is just more evident.

[RainingThrees]

A big question for me is who will step up in Demarcus's place and guard the other team's best perimeter player? I personally think it will be Gerald but if he guards someone like ellington then who will guard lawson? Paulus isn't a good enough defender and isn't big enough to guard the 3.

[BlueintheFace]

A big question for me is who will step up in Demarcus's place and guard the other team's best perimeter player? I personally think it will be Gerald but if he guards someone like ellington then who will guard lawson? Paulus isn't a good enough defender and isn't big enough to guard the 3.

You may forget, but Paulus spent a significant amount of time on Lawson in the Carolina game at Cameron. Lawson didn't go off all game until the last 4 minutes ...

[jv001]

A big question for me is who will step up in Demarcus's place and guard the other team's best perimeter player? I personally think it will be Gerald but if he guards someone like ellington then who will guard lawson? Paulus isn't a good enough defender and isn't big enough to guard the 3.

You have asked a great question. Who do we have that can contain lawson? The two that come to my mind are Nolan and E-Will. Does either start? I know Coach K believes playing time is earned. Would he start Nolan over Greg if Nolan earns it? I think he would and then bring Greg off the bench as the 6th man. I am not saying this will happen, but it could. We will be a deep team this year and I hope Coach K uses the bench more than he ever has.

[Ignatius07]

Scheyer is not a defensive liability at all, per se. He is an above-average defender in the ACC, in my opinion. The problem is that Paulus is a defensive liability, especially since he's 6'1" and could only theoretically match up against two players on most teams. Duke essentially concedes Paulus's 1-on-1 match-up on defense and attempts to make up for it with the usual scheme of getting in the passing lanes and denying the wings. This is fine, to an extent, though it makes it much easier to penetrate than it would have been on other Duke teams which had Duhon or Hurley spearheading the defense. Bringing it back to Scheyer, while a good defender, he is certainly not a "#1 defender" like DeMarcus was capable of. I view Scheyer as a very good 2nd-option defender in the backcourt, able to guard many a player but not good enough to carry a backcourt's defense. Part of this is because he's a better off-the-ball defender than on-the-ball.

Gerald showed very promising flashes of becoming a very good defender at the end of last year. He's always been a great shot blocker for his size, but he was getting in the passing lanes a lot more. It would be great if he could expand his game in on-the-ball defense, though it's really not too realistic to expect him to guard the opposing PG since it gives up a big advantage we have with him guarding bigger players.

In terms of overall backcourt, Duke is certainly top-5, but not the best. UNC definitely has the edge over us. Ginyard is nothing frightening (Henderson is clearly better), and Ellington-Scheyer is basically a wash, no matter what deluded UNC fans might think (watch just about any Duke-UNC game). The problem is Lawson, who is really good, obviously, but more of an issue is that his strength (speed) is Paulus' weakness. UConn, as mentioned above, should also be elite.

[Ignatius07]

You have asked a great question. Who do we have that can contain lawson? The two that come to my mind are Nolan and E-Will. Does either start? I know Coach K believes playing time is earned. Would he start Nolan over Greg if Nolan earns it? I think he would and then bring Greg off the bench as the 6th man. I am not saying this will happen, but it could. We will be a deep team this year and I hope Coach K uses the bench more than he ever has.

To me, your proposal, which I have also suggested in the past, makes the most sense. My feeling is that Coach K will not agree, though. By all accounts Nolan played great at the Pro-Am, but the issue with him starting is more of his decision-making than scoring, the former of which was not really showcased apparently, given the style of play. That is, even if Nolan is much improved, its very unlikely that he would have surpassed Scheyer or Henderson - he will probably need to prove he can and deserves to start at the PG spot, since K would rather have Scheyer at the wing.

[RainingThrees]

Although it probably won't happen I would love to have Gerald, Jon and Nolan starting. All three are excellent offensively and defensively. Then if we need instant offense we would bring in Greg off the bench for three point shooting. Now this would all work only if Greg could accept a sixth man roll as well as Jon did, which I know I would have trouble doing if I had been a starter for all previous years.

[jv001]

Although it probably won't happen I would love to have Gerald, Jon and Nolan starting. All three are excellent offensively and defensively. Then if we need instant offense we would bring in Greg off the bench for three point shooting. Now this would all work only if Greg could accept a sixth man roll as well as Jon did, which I know I would have trouble doing if I had been a starter for all previous years.

Maybe we're onto somethng. Like you I want Gerald, Jon and Nolan starting with Greg first off the bench. Jon and Gerald both rebound very well. Jon has shown he can hit the boards and defense is not over until the ball is rebounded. Like I said, let's use our depth this year and let the best players play the meaningful minutes.

[Ignatius07]

Coach K likes to say he plays his five best players and that there are no positions, but I think there most definitely IS a point guard almost all the time. So I don't think Nolan starts unless he has proven that he can run the offense better than Greg.

[BlueintheFace]

Although it probably won't happen I would love to have Gerald, Jon and Nolan starting. All three are excellent offensively and defensively. Then if we need instant offense we would bring in Greg off the bench for three point shooting. Now this would all work only if Greg could accept a sixth man roll as well as Jon did, which I know I would have trouble doing if I had been a starter for all previous years.

The problem here is that you lose a huge weapon in exchange for potential, and you lose a true point guard who won't turn the ball over. This proposition could potentially happen by the end of the year if Nolan has proven himself, but we are talking about one of the most consistent three point shooters (if not the best... I think his 3pt% was 42%) in the entire conference and a pg who had the least turnovers of any true point guard in the conference last year... not to mention the leadership/experience factor which cannot be underestimated. You don't just put a senior all-conference pg on the bench because you have another pg with great potential waiting in the wings. It just doesn't make sense.

In other words, if Nolan had just ONE MORE year under his belt and had shown us a bit more ability, then this suggestion might seem logical, but with the current situation as it is... it just doesn't.

[jv001]

The problem here is that you lose a huge weapon in exchange for potential, and you lose a true point guard who won't turn the ball over. This proposition could potentially happen by the end of the year if Nolan has proven himself, but we are talking about one of the most consistent three point shooters (if not the best... I think his 3pt% was 42%) in the entire conference and a pg who had the least turnovers of any true point guard in the conference last year... not to mention the leadership/experience factor which cannot be underestimated. You don't just put a senior all-conference pg on the bench because you have another pg with great potential waiting in the wings. It just doesn't make sense.

In other words, if Nolan had just ONE MORE year under his belt and had shown us a bit more ability, then this suggestion might seem logical, but with the current situation as it is... it just doesn't.
I just hate to see Greg get beat like a drum when the opponent's point guard goes by him like he is standing still. I guess if we could platoon Greg and Nolan when the ball changes hands that would be the answer. I believe Nolan has a better chance of cutting down his mistakes running the team than Greg does of guarding a good point guard. Hey maybe we could play ZONE when Greg is in the game. Naw, Coach K will not go that route.

[SilkyJ]

I just hate to see Greg get beat like a drum when the opponent's point guard goes by him like he is standing still. I guess if we could platoon Greg and Nolan when the ball changes hands that would be the answer. I believe Nolan has a better chance of cutting down his mistakes running the team than Greg does of guarding a good point guard.

If nolan can earn the starting spot at pg, we have FF potential next year, imo.

with regards to scheyer and his d, i think he gets ragged on too much for it, but his on the ball d could use some work. its solid, but i think the fact that he was playing against singletary and ben gordon this summer shows that he recognizes he could improve that aspect of his game. his off the ball d is pretty darn good.

[RainingThrees]

That news about Scheyer was very encouraging. Hopefully he also learned some offensive tricks from ben Gordon. Maybe we'll see Jon pull this move off. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvMwbiX-_dI

[BlueintheFace]

Beat like a drum is obviously an exaggeration. A more accurate assessment is that Paulus is a slight to moderate liability on defense. He WILL get beat when the opposing team's best player is the point guard, but guess what. So will a lot of point guards. He is not a liability against probably 75% of the teams Duke plays.

It is DEFINITELY preferable that Nolan be on the floor against players like Lawson, Vasquez, and Rice, but I don't feel that Paulus is much of a liability against most of the other pgs in the conference. It is also worth mentioning that Paulus is a far better defender off the ball then Nolan. Last year Nolan got lost his fair share of times on rotations and had troubles negotiating screens. However, to be fair that is a freshman thing and should be markedly better this year.

Also, Paulus' offensive game is superior to Smith's at this point in time to the point that the trade for defensive purposes really does hurt Duke overall.

Nolan will get better and better over the course of the year and I imagine that we will see Paulus and Nolan together on the court more and more as the season progresses. By the end of the year we should all be really excited and this argument will be much easier to make for Nolan fans. But, at that point nobody will care because both will be significant contributors and we will be winning.

[DeepBlue70]

Beat like a drum is obviously an exaggeration. A more accurate assessment is that Paulus is a slight to moderate liability on defense. He WILL get beat when the opposing team's best player is the point guard, but guess what. So will a lot of point guards. He is not a liability against probably 75% of the teams Duke plays.

Help me out here...do I remember that once again Paulus was not at 100% physically last year? Have we really yet to see what he can do defensively when he is healthy? I know he's never going to be an elite athlete if quickness is the measure, but K values team defense and Greg understands how to deliver that. I love the grit in the kid - that too goes a long way. Never any excuses and lots of fight. I believe that within the team concept he can hold his own and not be an unnecessary liability. The kid is smart and determined!

[Jim3k]

I just hate to see Greg get beat[en] like a drum when the opponent's point guard goes by him like he is standing still.

In some respects, this is by design. The backwards moving player is always at a disadvantage to the oncoming dribbler. It's just physics.

Duke plays a help defense where the on-ball defender, Greg when he's guarding the other team's point, usually doesn't have to worry too much because the point is more likely to pass than blow by. If that ball-handler is slashing toward the bucket, Greg's job is only to slow him down some. The bigs are then to rotate over and get in front for the charge or get in a position to block the shot. Zoubek has not yet shown his full potential in that role as the accomplished Shelden and Booz did. Thomas isn't too bad at it, but is a bit shorter than is optimal; Singler also knows what to do, too. Sometimes great leapers like Grant can fill that role.

Main point is that it's team defense, not individual defense, that matters. Everyone can get beaten [correct use of the word]. Greg generally does fine; better than he ever did when a freshman or when he was playing injured.

Greg's fine. Let's hope Zoubek has now learned to rotate well. He knows what to do; he just needs to do it. (Keep moving your feet Zoubs!] I suspect that it's a bit too early to count on Miles, but maybe it'll happen.

[BlueintheFace]

[QUOTE=BlueintheFace;188657]Beat like a drum is obviously an exaggeration. A more accurate assessment is that Paulus is a slight to moderate liability on defense. He WILL get beat when the opposing team's best player is the point guard, but guess what. So will a lot of point guards. He is not a liability against probably 75% of the teams Duke plays.

Help me out here...do I remember that once again Paulus was not at 100% physically last year? Have we really yet to see what he can do defensively when he is healthy? I know he's never going to be an elite athlete if quickness is the measure, but K values team defense and Greg understands how to deliver that. I love the grit in the kid - that too goes a long way. Never any excuses and lots of fight. I believe that within the team concept he can hold his own and not be an unnecessary liability. The kid is smart and determined!

I'm with you 95% of the time. I am certainly not one of the few who for some reason believes we would be better off with Nolan starting at the point. Paulus does suffer against elite guards, but so do most players.

[Jumbo]

Our backcourt looks very good on offense, but not as good on defense. We do have Nolan, Gerald and E-Will that can play better than average on the ball defense, but Greg and Jon are not so good (average at best). However looking at all facets of the game I guess we are in the top 5 backcourts in the country. Lot's of fire power.

You're absolutely nuts if you don't think Jon Scheyer is a good defender. Obviously, Paulus is not a good defender -- well below average. But Scheyer is the best wing defender on the team. His ball denial is superb. I've been fighting this argument for two-plus years, though, against people who see a white kid and assume he can't play D. Oh well.


Edit: I posted this (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6744) months ago, but apparently it's worth repeating.

[Wander]

I'd put UCONNvicts as a strong competitor for the top spot... Austrie, Price, Dyson, and introducing Kemba Walker... that's a hell of a backcourt...

Good call. I forgot about UConn.

Extending the list a little bit: Duke, UNC, UConn, Villanova, Florida, South Carolina, Gonzaga, Marquette, UCLA.

[BlueintheFace]

Clarification: My above post was supposed to quote DeepBlue... sorry

[SilkyJ]

Also, Paulus' offensive game is superior to Smith's at this point in time to the point that the trade for defensive purposes really does hurt Duke overall.


I guess thats a fair statement, with the emphasis on the bolded part, but I expect at least somewhat of a breakout year for nolan and that statement may not be true by january.

Also, an argument could be made that nolan's "solid" multi-dimensional abilities to score could have a greater overall impact than greg's one "outstanding" ability, if you know what I mean. I guess the most direct impact would be nolan's superior slashing ability drawing defenses allowing for drive and kicks to the shooters and for drive and dishes to the bigs...



Greg when he's guarding the other team's point, usually doesn't have to worry too much because the point is more likely to pass than blow by.

Not sure what makes you say that. Why are they "more likely" to do that? We've seen lots of people effectively take greg off the dribble, so I would imagine they would continue to try to do that.



If that ball-handler is slashing toward the bucket, Greg's job is only to slow him down some. The bigs are then to rotate over and get in front for the charge or get in a position to block the shot. Zoubek has not yet shown his full potential in that role as the accomplished Shelden and Booz did. Thomas isn't too bad at it, but is a bit shorter than is optimal; Singler also knows what to do, too. Sometimes great leapers like Grant can fill that role.


But wouldn't it be better if greg stayed in front and the bigs didnt have to rotate (and thereby leave their man)? Obviously if you're going to get beat your job is to slow the guy down, but isnt it better if you don't get beat? thats clearly rhetorical, and you are obviously right about team defense, but the ability to stop penetration without having to rotate (meaning 1 on 1 containment) can make a huge, huge difference especially when you dont have a great shot blocking presence, which we do not. I think you know where I'm going with that...


Help me out here...do I remember that once again Paulus was not at 100% physically last year? Have we really yet to see what he can do defensively when he is healthy?

I think he was healthy last year. Towards the end of the year he may have been banged up a little like everyone, but i think he was largely ok last year. hopefully one more full, healthy off season will have provided him the time to work on his quickness just a little more. If he can get just a little quicker i think it would make all the difference...

[bleeddukeblue]

I would like for Greg Paulus to have a good year this year. But I think that this will be the year for Nolan Smith. He has worked really hard this summer. Elliot Williams is a stud I'm telling you. When he and Smith on the floor look out for a lot of highlight reels and don't forget about Henderson. At times we could see Nolan, Williams, Henderson, Singler and Olek or Thomas on the floor at the same time. Thats alot of defense and quickness. As close as Coach will get to the Olympic team this year. I can't wait!!!

[Jim3k]

Not sure what makes you say that. Why are they "more likely" to do that? We've seen lots of people effectively take greg off the dribble, so I would imagine they would continue to try to do that.

Of course it depends. Many point guards are under instructions to start the offense -- usually a two or three pass start in the half court. If Duke has gotten back, then Greg is not a risk here. He can stay with anyone in the half court. Those one on one confrontations where the ball handler tries to fake his way to the bucket do happen, but usually they spend so much time faking, the back line gets ready

In any event, the Duke defense tries to force the ball to the middle so rotations can be made. That's the plan. Does it always work? Of course not. No defense always works.

On a break, Greg (and anyone) is at the backpedaling disadvantage I spoke of. It's really a rare defender who can stay in front of an agile, quick ball-handling driver J-Will and Hurley come to mind. To say that it would be better if Greg didn't lose those people is to miss the point that there he will eventually get beaten, but there is still (hopefully) someone there to prevent the layin -- all as part of the plan.





But wouldn't it be better if greg stayed in front and the bigs didnt have to rotate (and thereby leave their man)? Obviously if you're going to get beat your job is to slow the guy down, but isnt it better if you don't get beat? thats clearly rhetorical, and you are obviously right about team defense, but the ability to stop penetration without having to rotate (meaning 1 on 1 containment) can make a huge, huge difference especially when you dont have a great shot blocking presence, which we do not. I think you know where I'm going with that...

Some on this board used to say similar things about Duhon. A bit silly then, too, since Duhon is obviously quicker than Greg. Yet, the speed of the elite drivers and their agility will burn anyone, even those with equal or better speed and agility.

There's no reason to dismiss Greg's defensive ability. He's got good hands and when he is in front of someone, they best be aware of them, since he can be disruptive. I recall plenty of steals and bats Greg's hands have started.

Hey if N. Smith or E. Williams can beat him out, more power to them. I don't think it's going to happen.

[SilkyJ]

He can stay with anyone in the half court.


We have a fundamental disagreement here. totally agreed that the elite ball handlers/penetrators are generally going to get by their man, thats just how it works. I think greg is just lacking a tad in the quickness department. As I said, I'm hopeful that one more healthy off season combined with his work ethic will have fixed that.



There's no reason to dismiss Greg's defensive ability. He's got good hands and when he is in front of someone, they best be aware of them, since he can be disruptive. I recall plenty of steals and bats Greg's hands have started.

Hey if N. Smith or E. Williams can beat him out, more power to them. I don't think it's going to happen.

I dont mean to dimish it at all. You are definitely right that he has good hands, gets steals and is disruptive. He's also very smart and clever, much like scheyer.

[bleeddukeblue]

I think Paulus will have a good year and he has had a good career at Duke. But its the changing of the guards this year. I think in order for us to go farther than the sweet 16 we have to have a hard nose finisher at the point! Someone that goes to the rack hard and hard to defend one on one. I would like to see us spread the floor and our point guard go to work. Not just hit wide open three pointer all the time.

[BlueintheFace]

But wouldn't it be better if greg stayed in front and the bigs didnt have to rotate (and thereby leave their man)? Obviously if you're going to get beat your job is to slow the guy down, but isnt it better if you don't get beat? thats clearly rhetorical, and you are obviously right about team defense, but the ability to stop penetration without having to rotate (meaning 1 on 1 containment) can make a huge, huge difference especially when you dont have a great shot blocking presence, which we do not. I think you know where I'm going with that...

Yah it would be better, but how many players in Duke's past have really had that ability... if you are honest with yourself, not that many. This reminds me of the old saying "Good offense beats good defense." Demarcus was that guy some of the time, but in terms of PG's.... maybe avery... wojo... I don't know. When you are a defender on the perimeter, the advantage is almost always with the man on offense.

[Jumbo]

Of course it depends. Many point guards are under instructions to start the offense -- usually a two or three pass start in the half court. If Duke has gotten back, then Greg is not a risk here. He can stay with anyone in the half court. Those one on one confrontations where the ball handler tries to fake his way to the bucket do happen, but usually they spend so much time faking, the back line gets ready

In any event, the Duke defense tries to force the ball to the middle so rotations can be made. That's the plan. Does it always work? Of course not. No defense always works.

On a break, Greg (and anyone) is at the backpedaling disadvantage I spoke of. It's really a rare defender who can stay in front of an agile, quick ball-handling driver J-Will and Hurley come to mind. To say that it would be better if Greg didn't lose those people is to miss the point that there he will eventually get beaten, but there is still (hopefully) someone there to prevent the layin -- all as part of the plan.



I'm sorry, Jim. Greg Paulus is many things, but even an average defender is not one of them. Yes, Duke leaves its point guard on an island a lot of the time and forces opponents to put the ball on the floor. But Paulus is just not adept at staying in front of his man long enough to allow proper help/rotations. I sincerely hope he improves across the board as a senior, but I don't go into the season with any expectation of that happening on D.

[jv001]

I'm sorry, Jim. Greg Paulus is many things, but even an average defender is not one of them. Yes, Duke leaves its point guard on an island a lot of the time and forces opponents to put the ball on the floor. But Paulus is just not adept at staying in front of his man long enough to allow proper help/rotations. I sincerely hope he improves across the board as a senior, but I don't go into the season with any expectation of that happening on D.

I like Greg Paulus just as much as the next person. However he's below average defensely. He does a lot of good things for the team. He is one of the best outside shooters in the ACC. He directs the team as a good point guard should. He has the most heart of anyone on our team. He can hit free throws when the game is on the line. Jon is one of our best players and will probably be one of the best in the ACC this year. His defense is not bad at all. He does extremely well on wing players because he is quicker than most people think. For Duke to be really good this year, I think we need really good point guard play(defense included) and good play from one of our big men. Just my opinion.

[Jumbo]

I like Greg Paulus just as much as the next person. However he's below average defensely. He does a lot of good things for the team. He is one of the best outside shooters in the ACC. He directs the team as a good point guard should. He has the most heart of anyone on our team. He can hit free throws when the game is on the line. Jon is one of our best players and will probably be one of the best in the ACC this year. His defense is not bad at all. He does extremely well on wing players because he is quicker than most people think. For Duke to be really good this year, I think we need really good point guard play(defense included) and good play from one of our big men. Just my opinion.

That's basically what I just said, no?

[jv001]

That's basically what I just said, no?

No, not exactly. But I don't disagee with what you did say.

[Jumbo]

No, not exactly. But I don't disagee with what you did say.

Well, you've already done a major flip-flip on Scheyer's defense in this thread, and I have no idea what you were reacting to in your last post, so you've completely lost me.

[jv001]

Well, you've already done a major flip-flip on Scheyer's defense in this thread, and I have no idea what you were reacting to in your last post, so you've completely lost me.
Maybe I wasn't real clear in my first post. Sorry about that. I think Jon defends very well unless he has to guard the opponent's point guard. He get's in the passing lanes and get's as many steals as anyone on the team. He rebounds well both on the defensive board and keeps the ball alive on the offensive boards.

[DukeBlood]

Duke may have one of the deeper backcourts, if not the deepest. Its not the best. I would say either U-Conn, UNC or UCLA. Josh Shipp and Darren Collison return for their senior years while they add the Top-Ranked players in Jrue Holiday, plus McDonalds AA Malcolm Lee.

[RainingThrees]

thank you for getting back on topic. We don't have the most athletic backcourt both definately a very diverse one skill wise. with Gerald and his mid-range, paulus with 3's, jon both, and we will see with elliot and nolan.

[Davidson09]

Duke's backcourt is pretty solid. I think Nolan will/should play around 15 mins as PG in the game. Scheyer should be a top guard in the ACC. I think UNC, as everyone said, will have a phenomenal backcourt as well. One question, though - on defense, who will be designated to guard the opponent's PG? Scheyer? Paulus? I thin it should be Gerald. You need your best defender to disrupt the opposing offense - Gerald has proved himself to be arguably the best defender on the team. Of course, by putting multiple guys on the PG, Duke can wear out the opponent. This is where having a deep backcourt can be helpful - many guys who can run with/defend the PG and keep attacking the ball.

Just my two cents.

[mcdukie]

I like our backcourt and I think we are top 5 or 6 in the country. I can't take us over UNC or UCLA. We will be very tough though, I personally hope Nolan's minutes go up.

[BlueintheFace]

We did it a bit last year, but I really really like it when we have the lineup of Paulus, Smith, Henderson, Singler, Large Body. We pushed the tempo better and had tons of flexibility in how we got our points. I hope to see it at least a few minutes/game all season.

[RainingThrees]

Carolina has Ellington, Lawson, Frasor, Green, Ginyard? Am I missing any?

[Ignatius07]

Carolina has Ellington, Lawson, Frasor, Green, Ginyard? Am I missing any?

William Graves, but he doesn't make a difference in the equation.

[SilkyJ]

One question, though - on defense, who will be designated to guard the opponent's PG? Scheyer? Paulus? I thin it should be Gerald. You need your best defender to disrupt the opposing offense - Gerald has proved himself to be arguably the best defender on the team.

For a variety of reasons, gerald will not be guarding the opponent's pg. First and foremost he isn't quick enough. Gerald's main weakness is in fact his quickness. I saw was looking at a scout's notes at a game last year and the FIRST thing he wrote about gerald was "goes right" and the second was "lateral quickness an issue"

another factor will be that we need his size/strength/jumping ability defending other wing players

Paulus will draw this assignment 90% of the time, with scheyer seeing spot duty perhaps. When nolan and greg are in the game, while nolan can clearly provide superior on ball pressure, I think it will depend on the situation, i.e. how big is the opponents SG and how quick is the PG. If the PG is super quick and the SG isnt that big then it would make sense to put nolan on the point and greg on the SG, but if the greg can contain the PG for the most part and if the SG is bigger and would give greg trouble, then it may make sense to leave greg on the PG and put nolan on the SG.

[Wander]

Duke may have one of the deeper backcourts, if not the deepest. Its not the best. I would say either U-Conn, UNC or UCLA. Josh Shipp and Darren Collison return for their senior years while they add the Top-Ranked players in Jrue Holiday, plus McDonalds AA Malcolm Lee.

I'm not sure why some of you think UCLA's is better. I don't usually like getting caught up in all these player vs player contests but here goes.

Shipp's not a bad player but Scheyer is significantly better. Malcolm Lee is ranked below Elliot Williams. Holiday is probably the best freshman in the country, but I would be fairly disappointed if he ended up having a better season than Henderson. UCLA gives Roll some minutes but he doesn't really belong in a conversation with guys like Scheyer, Henderson, Holiday, etc. Collison over Paulus overall, but by enough of a margin to make up for our advantage at the wings? I don't think so, and that's without even mentioning Nolan (or UCLA's other recruit).

I admit I wouldn't go out and bet the house on Duke's backcourt being better than UCLA's because they'll both be very good and the margin is probably pretty small. With that said, I think you have to give Duke the edge right now.

[Bob Green]

...I think it will depend on the situation, i.e. how big is the opponents SG and how quick is the PG. If the PG is super quick and the SG isnt that big...

At crunch time, I predict Nolan Smith guards the PG and Elliot Williams guards the SG regardless of their quickness/size, which leaves Henderson or Scheyer to guard the Wing/SF.

[bleeddukeblue]

I telling you guys one thing! I seen Elliot Williams go againist so top notch players and hold his on in the Pro Am Tournament in Durham, NC. He is the real deal and will command some playing time! He will not back down and will gaurd anyone!!! I love this kid he will play alot. Him and Nolan on the floor at the same time will be a site to see!!! BELEIVE ME!!!

[Ignatius07]

At crunch time, I predict Nolan Smith guards the PG and Elliot Williams guards the SG regardless of their quickness/size, which leaves Henderson or Scheyer to guard the Wing/SF.

Wow - so you think that in crunch time, both Paulus and either Scheyer or Henderson will be sitting? I am a big Nolan fan as well, but I would wager a lot of money that the above scenario doesn't happen this year for any meaningful period of time.

[BlueintheFace]

Wow - so you think that in crunch time, both Paulus and either Scheyer or Henderson will be sitting? I am a big Nolan fan as well, but I would wager a lot of money that the above scenario doesn't happen this year for any meaningful period of time.

hahaha, I'll wager any amount of money that if Paulus can be on the floor during crunch time... he will be. Duke did not have any one clutch player in the last 4 minutes of close games last year, but if you had to pick one you'd have to go with Paulus (see- Davidson, NC State, Florida State, etc..)

On a sidenote: I predict that this particular argument will be a common one on the board this year. Namely, "Who should have been on the floor at the end when it was close?" With so much depth people are going to start picking favorites and arguing for them...

[DukeBlood]

I'm not sure why some of you think UCLA's is better. I don't usually like getting caught up in all these player vs player contests but here goes.

Shipp's not a bad player but Scheyer is significantly better. Malcolm Lee is ranked below Elliot Williams. Holiday is probably the best freshman in the country, but I would be fairly disappointed if he ended up having a better season than Henderson. UCLA gives Roll some minutes but he doesn't really belong in a conversation with guys like Scheyer, Henderson, Holiday, etc. Collison over Paulus overall, but by enough of a margin to make up for our advantage at the wings? I don't think so, and that's without even mentioning Nolan (or UCLA's other recruit).

I admit I wouldn't go out and bet the house on Duke's backcourt being better than UCLA's because they'll both be very good and the margin is probably pretty small. With that said, I think you have to give Duke the edge right now.

I agree with alot of what you say. I just give the edge to UCLA.

Darren Collison is one of the Top point guards in the country. IF Nolan progresses into what we believe he can, Then I wouldn't be so worried about Darren. Greg well... Honestly is no match for Darren.

Jrue Holiday im guessing will be the starting 2-guard or SG(whichever you prefer). I wouldn't trade Scheyer away to get Jrue, but I believe Holiday will bring instant offensive fire power. Plus I have read he is a decent defender. He will be an impact player right away.

Josh Shipp vs. Gerald Henderson. Without a doubt you take Henderson. But that doesnt mean Shipp is horrible. He is an above average player who will be in the NBA next year.

UCLA also got the #3 PG in Jerime Anderson(scout.com). He should serve as a valuable backup, But i would take Nolan over him any day. Elliot Williams is a Wild Card for Duke. He could be special or it could take him a year.

Duke is deeper no doubt, but as far as the 3-starters go. Its hard to say Duke is better. Mainly due to the PG spot.

[natedog4ever]

At crunch time, I predict Nolan Smith guards the PG and Elliot Williams guards the SG regardless of their quickness/size, which leaves Henderson or Scheyer to guard the Wing/SF.

crunch time = Smith, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler. Absolutely no doubt about it whether or not any of us agrees or disagrees.

[Carlos]

Carolina has Ellington, Lawson, Frasor, Green, Ginyard? Am I missing any?

You're missing freshmen Larry Drew and Justin Watts. Watts is unlikely to see much PT as he was an insurance policy in the event Lawson went pro. Drew OTOH was a McD's AA and won the three-point shooting contest which was a bit of a surprise since he's really not known as a shooter.

Drew and Frasor should be in a pretty good fight to be Lawson's primary backup. Frasor has the edge in experience but Drew is much faster with the ball which plays into Ol' Roy's preferred style of play.

[southgater]

Interesting discussion. Someone early on mentioned that a downside of Nolan at the point was his ability to run the offense. If I remember correctly, wasn't there a fair bit of the time last year with Nolan and Jon on the floor that Jon ran the offense? Nolan may have brought the ball into the frontcourt, but once there I remember Jon running the offense. Jon seems quite capable of doing this, in fact he played the true point a fair bit as a freshman I think as well. If this happened again this coming year, then one of the downsides of Nolan playing the point in place of Greg would be less important.

[shadowfax336]

On a sidenote: I predict that this particular argument will be a common one on the board this year. Namely, "Who should have been on the floor at the end when it was close?" With so much depth people are going to start picking favorites and arguing for them...


Agreed, unless a few players lift themselves above the crowd with a few clutch games early on. BTW, this UCLA-Duke backcourt thing is hopefully going to be settled in the first few weeks of the season

[shadowfax336]

Interesting discussion. Someone early on mentioned that a downside of Nolan at the point was his ability to run the offense. If I remember correctly, wasn't there a fair bit of the time last year with Nolan and Jon on the floor that Jon ran the offense? Nolan may have brought the ball into the frontcourt, but once there I remember Jon running the offense. Jon seems quite capable of doing this, in fact he played the true point a fair bit as a freshman I think as well. If this happened again this coming year, then one of the downsides of Nolan playing the point in place of Greg would be less important.

But Scheyer is still a significant downgrade from Greg at the point, and then we lose his production from the wing. (Although I'm all in favor of him having the ball in his hands earlier on in possessions this year, good things happen when he has the ball)

[RainingThrees]

crunch time = Smith, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler. Absolutely no doubt about it whether or not any of us agrees or disagrees.

With this lineup we only have one guy that is 6'8" or above. Who is going to rebound in the middle? Remember what happened vs West Virginia we were horribly out-rebounded.

[RainingThrees]

West Virginia rebounds 45. Duke rebounds 19 with the most by any individual being four. If I'm not mistaken defense and rebounding are very key in the crunch. You have got to limit your opponents second chance opportunities.

[SilkyJ]

At crunch time, I predict Nolan Smith guards the PG and Elliot Williams guards the SG regardless of their quickness/size, which leaves Henderson or Scheyer to guard the Wing/SF.

Wow! Bold-statement Bob! I have to say I would be almost shocked if this were the case, but if it is, then I am REALLY excited about our backcourt this year and in the future. If Ewill has the ability displace greg and/or scheyer/henderson then more power to him. You just got me REALLY excited about this year...



On a sidenote: I predict that this particular argument will be a common one on the board this year. Namely, "Who should have been on the floor at the end when it was close?" With so much depth people are going to start picking favorites and arguing for them...

OHH yes. I definitely agree. I think last year that debate occurred as well, b/c while it was clear that paulus, demarc, scheyer, henderson, Singler were the 5 best players on the team, we obviously were at a serious size disadvantage when K would use them all together, which he often did at the end of games. Let's hope one of our big men besides Singler has the ability to earn crunch time minutes this year...

[jv001]

Wow! Bold-statement Bob! I have to say I would be almost shocked if this were the case, but if it is, then I am REALLY excited about our backcourt this year and in the future. If Ewill has the ability displace greg and/or scheyer/henderson then more power to him. You just got me REALLY excited about this year...



OHH yes. I definitely agree. I think last year that debate occurred as well, b/c while it was clear that paulus, demarc, scheyer, henderson, Singler were the 5 best players on the team, we obviously were at a serious size disadvantage when K would use them all together, which he often did at the end of games. Let's hope one of our big men besides Singler has the ability to earn crunch time minutes this year...

Great point. We need one of our big men to earn minutes at crunch time so we will not be outrebounded so badly.

[natedog4ever]

With this lineup we only have one guy that is 6'8" or above. Who is going to rebound in the middle? Remember what happened vs West Virginia we were horribly out-rebounded.

I never said this is what I would recommend. This is definitely what will happen. We can revisit after the first game under five points in the last few minutes.

[greybeard]

With this lineup we only have one guy that is 6'8" or above. Who is going to rebound in the middle? Remember what happened vs West Virginia we were horribly out-rebounded.

Shot terribly and did not turn them over. First-round power forward had great game and strong guard had game of his life. That happens this team looses.

On the other hand, with added depth, maybe Singlar isn't exhausted, completely shot by the tournament. You also might see much more of an inside game from Lance and perhaps also Z. If so, bigs on competition might be otherwise occupied a little more.

[COYS]

West Virginia rebounds 45. Duke rebounds 19 with the most by any individual being four. If I'm not mistaken defense and rebounding are very key in the crunch. You have got to limit your opponents second chance opportunities.

Not to say that rebounding isn't important, but, IIRC, West Virginia out-rebounded us by that ridiculous margin by playing small-ball far better than we played that day. Early foul-trouble for Singler limited his effectiveness. Markie's tough luck illness contributed to his lackluster play. With those guys limited, WVU went small, often leaving Joe Alexander (who is similar in size to Singler) as the tallest man on the floor. In fact, the 6-8 Alexander and the 6-2 guard Mazulla each paced WVU with 11 rebounds apiece. Size didn't hurt us as much as the brick-fest from three and the fact that neither Markie nor Singler could get it going (remember, we only got three field goals from the two of them combined . . . that's a much worse sign than the rebounding margin). This is not to say that having some super-talented, ultra-rebounder isn't important, as i think everyone on this board would love to have a guy like that in the game. However, if that person is a liability in other areas, the advantage in rebounding becomes moot, especially when WVU goes small and quick. We'd need a strong rebounder, a good FT shooter, a good defender, and a solid offensive threat to justify benching one of Scheyer, Singler, Henderson, Paulus, or Smith. Zoubek has proven he can rebound, but he's inconsistent on defense (especially when he's caught out on the perimeter) and on offense (great potential, questionable footwork). He also is a mediocre FT shooter. LT is not much better from the line, is a solid defender even if he fouls, but hasn't shown much offensively. When we're ahead, we need the FT shooting. When we're behind, we need offense during crunch time. It would bode well for this team of one of the forwards (freshmen included) step up and begin to rival the aforementioned "crunch-time five" for playing time, but it would take major improvements in a number of these areas for either to rise to the task . . . and if our guards plus Singler continue to improve as well, it will certainly be difficult to bench them.

Here's the box score for reference.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=284000044

[SilkyJ]

Shot terribly and did not turn them over. First-round power forward had great game and strong guard had game of his life. That happens this team looses.

On the other hand, with added depth, maybe Singlar isn't exhausted, completely shot by the tournament. You also might see much more of an inside game from Lance and perhaps also Z. If so, bigs on competition might be otherwise occupied a little more.

Great points all around. Singler also added 10-15 lbs I believe, so that should help. Maybe dkbaseball's prediction will be correct and Olek "The" Czyz can surprise us all and grab some minutes as well...

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

crunch time = Smith, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler. Absolutely no doubt about it whether or not any of us agrees or disagrees.

I agree these are probably our best clutch players but the lineup is likely to vary based on the situation. Very likely we could end up with a true big in there (Zou or Plumlee) if sized is needed, especially to guard. And a guy like Plumlee could be effective in dragging an opponent's center out of the lane. Also, I would never under-estimate K's intuition in certain situations based on who has been playing well during a particular game or stretch of games.

[Bob Green]

Wow - so you think that in crunch time, both Paulus and either Scheyer or Henderson will be sitting? I am a big Nolan fan as well, but I would wager a lot of money that the above scenario doesn't happen this year for any meaningful period of time.


Wow! Bold-statement Bob! I have to say I would be almost shocked if this were the case, but if it is, then I am REALLY excited about our backcourt this year and in the future. If Ewill has the ability displace greg and/or scheyer/henderson then more power to him. You just got me REALLY excited about this year...

Obviously, my initial statement was a little simplistic as our line-up at crunch time will vary according to the strengths/weaknesses of the opponent. When our opponent is a team with excellent team speed including multiple speedy guards, I fully expect to see Nolan Smith and Elliot Williams playing at crunch time. Jon Scheyer is an excellent wing defender and he will be on the court to handle the ball due to his free throw shooting ability.

[VaDukie]

Great points all around. Singler also added 10-15 lbs I believe, so that should help. Maybe dkbaseball's prediction will be correct and Olek "The" Czyz can surprise us all and grab some minutes as well...

Singler has indeed added a good deal of muscle. He looked noticeably bigger in the pro-am games this summer.

[greybeard]

Singler has indeed added a good deal of muscle. He looked noticeably bigger in the pro-am games this summer.

I love watching the kid play, and am excited to hear that he has added muscle; should help him weather the "tactics" that some ACC teams like the "U" threw at him last year; might even make some of the coaches who employ such tactics think twice--if not them, then perhaps their henchmen ("Coach, you want me to do what?").

[RainingThrees]

I am very excited that Kyle put on muscle but some may forget that a 4 guard 1 foward in the crunch won't work as good as last year. You all know how good a rebounder Demarcus was. So even though Kyle will be a stronger force inside, I don't think it will surpass or make up for Demarcus.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Totally agree with you, Jumbo. I'm not sure why Jon gets put down like this... perhaps people are busy talking when Jon's man gets the ball. Scheyer impressed the heck out of me defensively last year!

Go Devils

[DevilDan]

Good Point: the 4 guard, 1 forward lineup just isn't going to get it done for us this year. We absolutely must have good minutes from Lance or Brian -- or we will merely come back a year smarter, and a year stronger. Maybe that translates into 30-4, up from 28-6, a two-game improvement (with a slightly less challenging non-conference and overall schedule helping?). But I think we are looking for more ... in MARCH.

I am hoping Lance comes back with the fire that Duke fans say they saw during the Summer League; I am praying that Brian comes back from his injury and period of inactivity with a burning desire to board, D-up, get some blocks and putbacks. If neither evolves, I hope Coach K will take a strong look at Miles & Olek. Whatever it takes, we GOTS to get some respect inside.

The game is one of adjustments -- other teams will find a way to beat the winning formula we used last Nov-Dec, and knock us out again ... unless we can get the size we DO have to produce and be an added weapon. GO DUKE !

[BlueintheFace]

When Superman goes to sleep at night he wears Greg Paulus pajamas... that should let you know how good our backcourt is.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I am very excited that Kyle put on muscle but some may forget that a 4 guard 1 foward in the crunch won't work as good as last year. You all know how good a rebounder Demarcus was. So even though Kyle will be a stronger force inside, I don't think it will surpass or make up for Demarcus.

If Zou is healthy, Lance plays tough like we hope, and we get good minutes from Miles, then Singler won't have to play inside nearly as much as last year and I think our rebounding will still be as good or better. I am really looking forward to seeing what Singler can do playing his more natural position this year. Plus it will help him stay fresher toward the end of the season. He was spent by the time March rolled around.

[RainingThrees]

I agree, I think our rebounding will get better this year... if we have more than one foward playing at most times. I was saying last season the only way we were able to pull off a 4 guard 1 foward lineup was because Demarcus was such a good rebounder as a guard.

[Jumbo]

Not to say that rebounding isn't important, but, IIRC, West Virginia out-rebounded us by that ridiculous margin by playing small-ball far better than we played that day. Early foul-trouble for Singler limited his effectiveness. Markie's tough luck illness contributed to his lackluster play. With those guys limited, WVU went small, often leaving Joe Alexander (who is similar in size to Singler) as the tallest man on the floor. In fact, the 6-8 Alexander and the 6-2 guard Mazulla each paced WVU with 11 rebounds apiece. Size didn't hurt us as much as the brick-fest from three ...

Exactly. When you shoot like Duke did against WVU, you're going to give up a ton of rebounds because, you know, you're missing shots. WVU went small all game and executed well.

[Jumbo]

Interesting discussion. Someone early on mentioned that a downside of Nolan at the point was his ability to run the offense. If I remember correctly, wasn't there a fair bit of the time last year with Nolan and Jon on the floor that Jon ran the offense? Nolan may have brought the ball into the frontcourt, but once there I remember Jon running the offense. Jon seems quite capable of doing this, in fact he played the true point a fair bit as a freshman I think as well. If this happened again this coming year, then one of the downsides of Nolan playing the point in place of Greg would be less important.

Yup, this happened at the end of last year. Late in the season, when Nolan came in for Greg, Jon ran the offense. And, depending on what scheme we're running this year, the need for a "true" point isn't huge. For instance, if we're running pure motion, anyone can initiate the offense. If we keep running last year's offense, the need for a pure point isn't great either, since we ran so many ball-screens along the wing.

You can argue, in fact, that Paulus is not a true point guard either, and that Scheyer is actually the most effective playmaker on the floor. I don't think it's wise to force him to bring the ball up the court (especially against pressure), as he needs to save his energy for so many other tasks. But he needs to the ball in his hands in the half-court set, and if Nolan's not up to the task of setting up his teammates just yet, Jon certainly is.

[Jumbo]

Obviously, my initial statement was a little simplistic as our line-up at crunch time will vary according to the strengths/weaknesses of the opponent. When our opponent is a team with excellent team speed including multiple speedy guards, I fully expect to see Nolan Smith and Elliot Williams playing at crunch time. Jon Scheyer is an excellent wing defender and he will be on the court to handle the ball due to his free throw shooting ability.

Bob, I just don't see it. Well, I see half of it -- I think Nolan will really push Greg for playing time this year and absolutely could finish games if he makes strides. But there's no way Williams plays key minutes ahead of Scheyer, regardless of the needs. He's going to have to be pretty darn good to be a better defender than Scheyer, who has shut down guys from Ellington to Thaddeus Young in his two years at Duke. Again, his quickness, length and defensive instincts are vastly underrated. He's best off the ball, denying on the wing, but he's absolutely fine guarding quick guys off the dribble. In fact, I think Scheyer might be a better on-ball defender than Henderson.

[ACCBBallFan]

If Zou is healthy, Lance plays tough like we hope, and we get good minutes from Miles, then Singler won't have to play inside nearly as much as last year and I think our rebounding will still be as good or better. I am really looking forward to seeing what Singler can do playing his more natural position this year. Plus it will help him stay fresher toward the end of the season. He was spent by the time March rolled around.

Not fond of a lineup of one big and 4 guards except in unusual circumstances. I agree with this poster that the key is Zoubek and Lance.

If you extend the premise of the thread Duke is as strong as anyone at the 1-4 and just needs decent production particularly at post defender and rebounder to be very competitive.

[bleeddukeblue]

Bob, I just don't see it. Well, I see half of it -- I think Nolan will really push Greg for playing time this year and absolutely could finish games if he makes strides. But there's no way Williams plays key minutes ahead of Scheyer, regardless of the needs. He's going to have to be pretty darn good to be a better defender than Scheyer, who has shut down guys from Ellington to Thaddeus Young in his two years at Duke. Again, his quickness, length and defensive instincts are vastly underrated. He's best off the ball, denying on the wing, but he's absolutely fine guarding quick guys off the dribble. In fact, I think Scheyer might be a better on-ball defender than Henderson.

You must of have never seen this kid play defense. I saw him go against Danny Green in the pro am tournament! He made him turn the ball over 3 or 4 times up in Danny Green's face. This kid is a better defender than Sheyer now. He might be the best defender on the team now! He is not scared of anyone!!! He was the MVP of that tournament and it had alot of good players. He goes after you. His jump shot needs work but his defense is superior!!!

[Carlos]

bleeddukeblue - I was at that game also and Williams certainly locked down on Danny Green. It was beautiful to watch and it bodes well for Elliot's potential at Duke.

But it's a long way from locking down on a guy trying to create off the dribble (not exactly one of Danny Green's strengths, BTW) in a summer pro am league to being a disciplined defender against a team running an actual offense.

I'd also add that Williams was not the MVP of that league - it went to Bo Ingram, an incoming freshman at ECU. The Tournament MVP went to Derrick Wiley, a guy who averaged 14 ppg at ECU. There's a message in there about trying to translate pro am league success into ACC success.

[Jumbo]

You must of have never seen this kid play defense.
I've seen him play defense on just a couple of occasions in all-star settings. But none of us has seen him play Duke defense.


I saw him go against Danny Green in the pro am tournament!
Why are you yelling?


He made him turn the ball over 3 or 4 times up in Danny Green's face.
Great. It was a summer tournament. Insert your own line about Nick Horvath here.


This kid is a better defender than Sheyer now.
I should hope he's a better defender than this "Sheyer" person, since I've never heard of that guy. If you mean Jon Scheyer, that remains to be seen.


He might be the best defender on the team now!
Based on what? Again, he hasn't even played a minute of defense in Duke's system. And please, stop yelling.


He is not scared of anyone!!!
Um, okay. Now you're yelling even louder. And are the other players scared of someone? What does this even mean?


He was the MVP of that tournament and it had alot of good players. He goes after you.
I really don't put much stock in the glorified pick-up gams that are summer tournaments. Sorry.


His jump shot needs work but his defense is superior!!!
Defense isn't just about being able to stay in front of your man. It's about helping, recovering, forcing players to the right spot on the floor, etc. And Duke does some things differently on D than most programs. Williams might indeed be a superior defender. We'll see. But for now, I have every right to be skeptical, because there has been a learning curve for nearly every freshman I've seen at Duke. Plus, as I've stated, Scheyer's defense is vastly underrated.

[COYS]

Plus, as I've stated, Scheyer's defense is vastly underrated.

Jumbo, this is a point that can't be stated enough. Whenever people compare Duke's backcourt to UNC's, I feel like they often forget to add defense into the mix. Lawson is a terrible defender. He's got quick hands and is low to the ground so he comes up with steals by picking people's pockets from time to time, but his lack of height and length make him anything but a lockdown defender on the perimeter. Ellington's lateral quickness has long been overrated by most people who cover college ball (but not the scouts who looked at him as a second-round NBA prospect). He's a great shooter and free throw shooter, but he doesn't get to the rim particularly easily (I believe that Scheyer had significantly more FT attempts last year in fewer minutes than Ellington) and his on the ball defense and help defense are underwhelming. Scheyer is a superb defender who is almost never out of position and who's lateral quickness is vastly underrated. Plus, he knows opposing players' habits. He doesn't rely on instinct alone. He knows if the guy he's guarding favors his right or left, likes to cross over or reverse pivot, etc . . . and he forces that player out of his comfort zone. When you combine Scheyer's superb defense with his offensive efficiency, you have one of the best college guards in the nation, even if his role is generally as a supporting member rather than as a statistical (or media) star. Then again, he certainly can take over a game if needed (see: Duke at FSU this past season).

[DevilDan]

Geez, I just hope our TEAM gets after it as much in November as WE are doing on DBR...HA! I posted yesterday the point that we need an inside game to add to our weapons (DUH!). I have absolutely no worries about our 6-to-8 guards & small forwards. Match our group up against almost any other team's G/SF's, and we rule.

But we GOTTA have some inside presence ... Lance / Brian / Miles / Olek -- one or two of these guys has got to emerge. Even if by committee, 8-10 points, 10 boards, and some key stops during each game is HUGE, if we are to be among the elite teams come Feb-March.

Just keep Kyle out of the post -- then we'll see just how great this kid is ! Because we have such a team concept, it's doubtful he will get the AA notice he deserves, but if we can keep him at forward, he'll give us numbers all season !

[BlueintheFace]

Just keep Kyle out of the post -- then we'll see just how great this kid is ! Because we have such a team concept, it's doubtful he will get the AA notice he deserves, but if we can keep him at forward, he'll give us numbers all season !

Here's an interesting question -- Will Kyle Singler's rebounding numbers go up, down, or stay the same with all the depth at post? He averaged 5.8 r/gm last season.

[bleeddukeblue]

I've seen him play defense on just a couple of occasions in all-star settings. But none of us has seen him play Duke defense.


Why are you yelling?


Great. It was a summer tournament. Insert your own line about Nick Horvath here.


I should hope he's a better defender than this "Sheyer" person, since I've never heard of that guy. If you mean Jon Scheyer, that remains to be seen.


Based on what? Again, he hasn't even played a minute of defense in Duke's system. And please, stop yelling.


Um, okay. Now you're yelling even louder. And are the other players scared of someone? What does this even mean?


I really don't put much stock in the glorified pick-up gams that are summer tournaments. Sorry.


Defense isn't just about being able to stay in front of your man. It's about helping, recovering, forcing players to the right spot on the floor, etc. And Duke does some things differently on D than most programs. Williams might indeed be a superior defender. We'll see. But for now, I have every right to be skeptical, because there has been a learning curve for nearly every freshman I've seen at Duke. Plus, as I've stated, Scheyer's defense is vastly underrated.

I not yelling. I just really high on the kid I got to play a couple of pick games with him. You should come play sometime if you are any good. I graduate from college and played basketball for four-years so I have played against some good talent. I have stuck it to Jon Scheyers plenty of times so I know what I'm talking about. So don't get so defended. Sorry I mispelled his name but you know what I meant. We will see how good he is very soon.

[natedog4ever]

The post that hijacked this thread into another line-ups thread was regarding "crunch time".

<Echoes> crunch time = Smith, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler <Echoes>

Again, love it or hate it, that is what will happen. We can revisit during the season or if you want to bet money, I'm good with that also.

We would need to define "crunch time", but off the cuff I would say the game is under 10 pts with less than 4 minutes left.

[Jumbo]

The post that hijacked this thread into another line-ups thread was regarding "crunch time".

<Echoes> crunch time = Smith, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler <Echoes>

Again, love it or hate it, that is what will happen. We can revisit during the season or if you want to bet money, I'm good with that also.

We would need to define "crunch time", but off the cuff I would say the game is under 10 pts with less than 4 minutes left.

Last year I was leading the charge of Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler before the season as our crunch-time lineup. And we went that way in virtually every tight spot. But I just don't see it this year with Smith replacing Nelson. There are three reasons:
1) With Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson, we had three tall/long wings who could all rebound. Nelson, in particular, could hold his own against much bigger players in the post. You can't say that with Smith.
2) The talent gap between those five guys and the next group was significant. I expect that to have closed some this year, at least in terms of Paulus/Smith vs. The Bigs.
3) The team seems determined to avoid having to play Singler at the 5. Plus, we have more options there. I have to think that on a given night, one of Zoubek, Thomas, Plumlee, Czyz or McClure will be playing well enough to be on the floor in clutch situations.

[Jumbo]

I not yelling. I just really high on the kid I got to play a couple of pick games with him. You should come play sometime if you are any good. I graduate from college and played basketball for four-years so I have played against some good talent. I have stuck it to Jon Scheyers plenty of times so I know what I'm talking about. So don't get so defended. Sorry I mispelled his name but you know what I meant. We will see how good he is very soon.

I'm sorry, but it's very hard to take someone seriously when he says, "I not yelling." Or "I just really high on the kid ..." The verb store called ...
"I graduate from college?" Did you mean "graduated?" What on earth does "don't get so defended" mean? Do you mean "defensive?" If so, I'm not. I'm just have no reason to believe or trust anything you've said.

I'm sure you've "stuck it to Jon Scheyer plenty of times." But PlayStation games don't count.

[BD80]

I'm sorry, but it's very hard to take someone seriously when he says, "I not yelling." Or "I just really high on the kid ..." The verb store called ...
"I graduate from college?" Did you mean "graduated?" What on earth does "don't get so defended" mean? Do you mean "defensive?" If so, I'm not. I'm just have no reason to believe or trust anything you've said.

I'm sure you've "stuck it to Jon Scheyer plenty of times." But PlayStation games don't count.

So much for the "kinder, gentler blowhard" :D

[Jumbo]

So much for the "kinder, gentler blowhard" :D

Ha! Sorry, between the yelling, the constant spelling/grammar errors and the ridiculous proclamations about playing college basketball and schooling Jon Scheyer, there's only so much I can handle. Then again, maybe bleeddukeblue is really Ty Lawson.

[BD80]

Here's an interesting question -- Will Kyle Singler's rebounding numbers go up, down, or stay the same with all the depth at post? He averaged 5.8 r/gm last season.

If Zoub can earn more minutes, Kyle's rebounds will go up. BZ will occupy the other teams best rebounder and the TEAM rebounding average will go up more than BZ's personal increase. If BZ can learn to hold his position, he will get more rebounds and will create many more rebounds for the other Duke players on the floor. IF BZ can generate some offense from the low post and draw some doubling, that will open up many rebounding opportunities for Kyle on the off side.

OC might have the strength to box out to give Kyle some more rebounds, but I don't see him playing enough to make much of a difference in Kyle's stats.

Lance and Plumlee can boost Kyle's stats a bit just by getting minutes against the opponent's "5", thus freeing Kyle to a less physical match up.

I don't see any of our "depth" reducing Kyle's minutes much. He is still our best player. He and Gerald are going to make this a fun year.

[MChambers]

Last year I was leading the charge of Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler before the season as our crunch-time lineup. And we went that way in virtually every tight spot. But I just don't see it this year with Smith replacing Nelson. There are three reasons:
1) With Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson, we had three tall/long wings who could all rebound. Nelson, in particular, could hold his own against much bigger players in the post. You can't say that with Smith.
2) The talent gap between those five guys and the next group was significant. I expect that to have closed some this year, at least in terms of Paulus/Smith vs. The Bigs.
3) The team seems determined to avoid having to play Singler at the 5. Plus, we have more options there. I have to think that on a given night, one of Zoubek, Thomas, Plumlee, Czyz or McClure will be playing well enough to be on the floor in clutch situations.

Didn't Coach K say after the last loss last season that the team needed to get bigger? I took this to mean playing a bigger lineup more, although I suppose it could have meant that our players needed to lift more weights. I think it means we'll see Kyle almost exclusively at the 4 (if Duke played positions -- ;)) and some mix of Thomas, Zoubek, MP1, and OC in the other big spot.

[natedog4ever]

Last year I was leading the charge of Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler before the season as our crunch-time lineup. And we went that way in virtually every tight spot. But I just don't see it this year with Smith replacing Nelson. There are three reasons:
1) With Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson, we had three tall/long wings who could all rebound. Nelson, in particular, could hold his own against much bigger players in the post. You can't say that with Smith.
2) The talent gap between those five guys and the next group was significant. I expect that to have closed some this year, at least in terms of Paulus/Smith vs. The Bigs.
3) The team seems determined to avoid having to play Singler at the 5. Plus, we have more options there. I have to think that on a given night, one of Zoubek, Thomas, Plumlee, Czyz or McClure will be playing well enough to be on the floor in clutch situations.

Trust me, I want to believe you, but I'll believe it when I see it. Again, anybody that wants to bet, I'm open. That leaves me a winner either way.

[Jumbo]

Trust me, I want to believe you, but I'll believe it when I see it. Again, anybody that wants to bet, I'm open. That leaves me a winner either way.

I hear you, and I've been there. As I said, a lot of people didn't agree with me last summer that we'd finish games with Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler. But from what I'm hearing and based on the differences between Nelson and Smith, I expect that to change. I'm not saying that there won't be a couple of situations where matchups enable us to finish games with that group. But I think it will be a much more fluid situation, and I do know that the staff is committed to playing bigger, keeping Singler at the 4 as much as possible and really developing Zoubek. Take it for what you will ...

[Wander]

But PlayStation games don't count.

Please don't ruin my experience of beating Carolina 120-60 led by Sean Dockery's quadruple-double.

[BD80]

When have you ever known for a Duke guard to come in and not contribute immediately.

Martinus Pocius.

That isn't saying he won't contribute this year. I think Marty could be instant offense for us.

[JasonEvans]

When have you ever known for a Duke guard to come in and not contribute immediately.

Ummm, do you really want me to answer this? This is a joke right? You aren't really implying that every backcourt freshman at Duke was an immediate contributor, are you? How long have you been following basketball?

Plus, no one is saying Email won't be a significant player. They are just saying that Jon Scheyer will not easily be pushed aside. The kid was perhaps the top 6th man in all of America last year and you think that he will have a diminished role this season? I would imagine that you will find precious few people who know basketball who would agree with that assessment.

Also, the fact that your grammar was horrid is an indicator of either 1) that you don't think very much before you post or 2) that you are simply not a very mature and intelligent writer. Whichever the answer is, it would do you well to proof your posts before they go live and clean them up. It will allow you to make your points more clearly and give your post more credibility.

--Jason "watch, I probably mad a horrid typos or grammmmattical erroror in my posted" Evans

[mgtr]

--Jason "watch, I probably mad a horrid typos or grammmmattical erroror in my posted" Evans

Oh, snap! This is undoubtedly the signature line of the week.

[greybeard]

You guys are being more than a tad hard on bleedukeblue (BDB). I am not a fan of criticizing folks for poor grammar or spelling (now there's a surprise). I think the guy's exhuberance about the new kid, having seen him play and having run with him some, is informative.

BTW, could someone name some of the top guard recruits who fell by the wayside here. I know that there are any number of bigs who did not work out, but was unaware of any blue-chip guards who flopped.

Tag you're it, Jason.

grey "if I had to chose it would have been that I could have had hops rather than a facility for spelling and grammar" beard

[Ignatius07]

BTW, could someone name some of the top guard recruits who fell by the wayside here. I know that there are any number of bigs who did not work out, but was unaware of any blue-chip guards who flopped.

Although I wouldn't say he flopped, Sean Dockery performed considerably lower than expectations.

[greybeard]

Although I wouldn't say he flopped, Sean Dockery performed considerably lower than expectations.

If the kid flops that bad it will be good. grey "yogi berra" beard

[jimsumner]

"crunch time = Smith, Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler <Echoes>
Again, love it or hate it, that is what will happen. We can revisit during the season or if you want to bet money, I'm good with that also.
We would need to define "crunch time", but off the cuff I would say the game is under 10 pts with less than 4 minutes left"

I'm sorry but I don't see this as any great revelation. Every team on the planet goes small at crunch time. When you're ahead, you put in your best ball handlers and foul shooters. That usually means an extra guard. When you're behind, you put in quickness to chase and force turnovers. That usually means an extra guard. If it's too close to call, you make situation substitutions on dead balls so that you don't actually have one lineup in for very long anyway.

[Devils Rock]

If the kid flops that bad it will be good. grey "yogi berra" beard

Not so sure I would agree with you there. Dockery was never much of the pure point he was expected to be coming out of high school. As a matter of fact, I don't think he had more than maybe 2-3 games in his career with 7 or more assists and those would have come in his senior year. In his senior year, he finally was playing more minutes, but they were largely off the ball since we had Paulus by then. Even in that regard, Dockery was limited offensively. He had to be encouraged to shoot more and his drive was pretty limited as well. I will however give him credit as a tough defender for much of his Duke career.

Back to the original comment from bleeddukeblue: it did not posit that top tier guards generally contribute right away, instead he said "When have you ever known for a Duke guard to not come in and contribute immediately".

I'm with Jason Evans: That is an extensive list for sure.

[JasonEvans]

Dock averaged 10 minutes per game and 3.3 ppg while shooting pretty darn poorly from the field and the FT line as a freshman. I don't think for a minute that bleedingdukeblue would be satisfied with that kind of output from EW. It should be remembered that Dock was a consensus top 20 recruit when he committed to Duke-- not very different from EW's ranking.

--Jason "was Andrew Sweet highly regarded? I think he was top 50ish" Evans

[RainingThrees]

Elliot will have a much better output. He will be in a lot for defensive purposes which will also alow him to showcase his offensive ability.

[greybeard]

Not so sure I would agree with you there. Dockery was never much of the pure point he was expected to be coming out of high school. As a matter of fact, I don't think he had more than maybe 2-3 games in his career with 7 or more assists and those would have come in his senior year. In his senior year, he finally was playing more minutes, but they were largely off the ball since we had Paulus by then. Even in that regard, Dockery was limited offensively. He had to be encouraged to shoot more and his drive was pretty limited as well. I will however give him credit as a tough defender for much of his Duke career.

Back to the original comment from bleeddukeblue: it did not posit that top tier guards generally contribute right away, instead he said "When have you ever known for a Duke guard to not come in and contribute immediately".

I'm with Jason Evans: That is an extensive list for sure.

And they would include?

The only thing I recall about Dockery is that, in JJ's last year, he had the green light on run outs in close games to pull up and shoot the 3. He did it often and made them. You call that a disappointment, we have different standards.

You guys are picking nits. The guy said he is very impressed by whatever his name is, Williams, that right? He says that he played ball himself, has gone against Jon and did well against him. I don't care if it was a half court game that meant nothing, that BDB knows enough and can play well enough to be on the court with Jon makes his perspectives worth hearing.

Or, do you think that there are many people on the board here who can say the same of themselves; that they can take the court with Jon, any court, and hold their own. You can do that you deserve a listen, in my book, anyway.

[Edouble]

And they would include?

There is a list.

I was gonna mention Dock earlier, but I didn't want to be the one to get ragged on.

Here's my list: Wojo, Capel, Duhon, Paulus, James, Dockery, Nelson, Price.

Before you go postal on me, my list is based on careers made up of individual seasons. Many of these guys we remember fondly, and most of them gave Duke 4 hard played years, but none of them really turned out to be what we thought they would be when they stepped foot on campus. Most had at least one really outstanding season, and most of us remember them for that outstanding season, if only because we rooted and rooted so hard for them to finally perform at that level. But please don't go around saying that every blue chip guard that has committed to Duke has lived up to the hype. This program has it's share of Max Owens and Quentin Thomas' too!

Capel had a great freshman year, then faded. Duhon had a nice freshman year (nice, not spectacular) and then fell asleep until he had one of the best senior years ever for a Blue Devil. Wojo underperformed until his senior year, and at that point it was still a matter of contention whether or not he was the right guy for Duke. Yes, he played his heart out, but he was still from the years when Coach K mad some recruiting mistakes. Which takes me to Ricky Price. Price's career stats, PPG: 5.6, RPG: 2.1, APG: 0.8, Potential: 300%. There's no way that Price wouldn't have been a first round pick if he had attended the school that was right for him. Paulus, James, and Nelson, whether it was due to injuries or other problems, did not perform as well as expected until their senior years (still waiting to see with Paulus, although there is a strong contingent on this board that would like to see Nolan Smith get the start this upcoming season). Dockery has already been addressed.

[greybeard]

There is a list.

I was gonna mention Dock earlier, but I didn't want to be the one to get ragged on.

Here's my list: Wojo, Capel, Duhon, Paulus, James, Dockery, Nelson, Price.

Before you go postal on me, my list is based on careers made up of individual seasons. Many of these guys we remember fondly, and most of them gave Duke 4 hard played years, but none of them really turned out to be what we thought they would be when they stepped foot on campus. Most had at least one really outstanding season, and most of us remember them for that outstanding season, if only because we rooted and rooted so hard for them to finally perform at that level. But please don't go around saying that every blue chip guard that has committed to Duke has lived up to the hype. This program has it's share of Max Owens and Quentin Thomas' too!

Capel had a great freshman year, then faded. Duhon had a nice freshman year (nice, not spectacular) and then fell asleep until he had one of the best senior years ever for a Blue Devil. Wojo underperformed until his senior year, and at that point it was still a matter of contention whether or not he was the right guy for Duke. Yes, he played his heart out, but he was still from the years when Coach K mad some recruiting mistakes. Which takes me to Ricky Price. Price's career stats, PPG: 5.6, RPG: 2.1, APG: 0.8, Potential: 300%. There's no way that Price wouldn't have been a first round pick if he had attended the school that was right for him. Paulus, James, and Nelson, whether it was due to injuries or other problems, did not perform as well as expected until their senior years (still waiting to see with Paulus, although there is a strong contingent on this board that would like to see Nolan Smith get the start this upcoming season). Dockery has already been addressed.

well done. BDB should have parsed his words more carefully. Playing in the ACC under K and performing as these guys did is a success in my book. You want to do a list of guards, most particularly at point, who really, really disappointed, you need only look at Big John'ws reign at Georgetown. Now we're talking disappointment. The guys you mentioned were all performers in comparison, and in my book. I forget how spoiled you guys are. :)

[jimsumner]

Dockery made 34-86 (39.5%) of his threes in 2006 en route to an average of 7.1 points per game. He also averaged 3 rebounds and 2.7 assists per game. One of those threes was one of more memorable in Duke history and Dock was a very good defender. But it's hard to make much of a case that he lived up to his prep reputation.

Far from fading, Jeff Capel had his best season as a junior, when he averaged 16.6 points and 3.6 assists per game and made third-team All-ACC. Capel averaged 8.6 ppg as a freshman. The Purdue game made us think he might be the next A-A but he did not have a great freshman season. After a poor start to his senior year, Capel regrouped and was Duke's best player down the stretch in '97.

Wojo was second-team All-ACC as a junior, third-team as a senior. He had marginally better stats as a junior than as a senior.

Ricky Price averaged 14.2 ppg as a junior and made third-team All-ACC. His failure to build on that are, imo, his failures not his coach's or his school's. How his academic suspension for plagiarism supports your view is something you'll have to explain but it did functionally end his career at Duke.

Despite his McDonald's A-A status, most recruiting gurus regarded James as top 50ish or so recruit. He was injured early, backed up Carrawell, Langdon, and Maggette in '99 and averaged 11.0 and 12.3 ppg his final two seasons, providing healthy doses of toughness and maturity that don't show up on stat sheets but sure win ballgames. About what was expected.

Agree on Duhon. Disagree on Nelson.

Note that we're discussing careers not freshmen contributions, which I believe was the original point.

Guards who didn't contribute much right off the bat would include Kevin Strickland, Quin Snyder, Phil Henderson, Thomas Hill (3.4 ppg), Kenny Blakeney, Wojo, maybe Chris Collins (5.8 ppg), maybe Daniel Ewing (6.5 ppg). Most of these guys were prep A-A and most became significant contributors down the line. Non-guards who didn't do much as freshmen but became players of consequence would include John Smith, Alaa Abdelnaby, Robert Brickey, Brian Davis, Cherokee Parks, Eric Meek, James, maybe Casey Sanders.

In other words, lots of guys under K have come in to talented teams, waited their turns, and lived to tell about it.

[Jumbo]

And they would include?

The only thing I recall about Dockery is that, in JJ's last year, he had the green light on run outs in close games to pull up and shoot the 3. He did it often and made them. You call that a disappointment, we have different standards.

You guys are picking nits. The guy said he is very impressed by whatever his name is, Williams, that right? He says that he played ball himself, has gone against Jon and did well against him. I don't care if it was a half court game that meant nothing, that BDB knows enough and can play well enough to be on the court with Jon makes his perspectives worth hearing.

Or, do you think that there are many people on the board here who can say the same of themselves; that they can take the court with Jon, any court, and hold their own. You can do that you deserve a listen, in my book, anyway.

You're assuming he's telling the truth.

[jimsumner]

Make that 14.2 ppg for Price as a soph.

[Jumbo]

There is a list.

I was gonna mention Dock earlier, but I didn't want to be the one to get ragged on.

Here's my list: Wojo, Capel, Duhon, Paulus, James, Dockery, Nelson, Price.

Before you go postal on me, my list is based on careers made up of individual seasons. Many of these guys we remember fondly, and most of them gave Duke 4 hard played years, but none of them really turned out to be what we thought they would be when they stepped foot on campus. Most had at least one really outstanding season, and most of us remember them for that outstanding season, if only because we rooted and rooted so hard for them to finally perform at that level. But please don't go around saying that every blue chip guard that has committed to Duke has lived up to the hype. This program has it's share of Max Owens and Quentin Thomas' too!

Capel had a great freshman year, then faded. Duhon had a nice freshman year (nice, not spectacular) and then fell asleep until he had one of the best senior years ever for a Blue Devil. Wojo underperformed until his senior year, and at that point it was still a matter of contention whether or not he was the right guy for Duke. Yes, he played his heart out, but he was still from the years when Coach K mad some recruiting mistakes. Which takes me to Ricky Price. Price's career stats, PPG: 5.6, RPG: 2.1, APG: 0.8, Potential: 300%. There's no way that Price wouldn't have been a first round pick if he had attended the school that was right for him. Paulus, James, and Nelson, whether it was due to injuries or other problems, did not perform as well as expected until their senior years (still waiting to see with Paulus, although there is a strong contingent on this board that would like to see Nolan Smith get the start this upcoming season). Dockery has already been addressed.

Edouble,
The comment in question was about guards contributing right away, not over the length of a career. The original poster basically claimed that Duke guards always come in and contribute a lot right away. We both know that's not the case.
BTW, Ricky Price averaged 9.2 ppg (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=295) over the course of his career. I was a huge Ricky fan, but a lot of his problems were of his own doing. It's hard to say he picked the school basketball-wise, given how well he played as a sophomore. But given his academic problems, sure, he might have been better off elsewhere. That said, talent has a way of surfacing one way or another, and if Ricky really were a superior player, he would have excelled in Europe and punched his ticket to the NBA at some point.

[Jumbo]

Despite his McDonald's A-A status, most recruiting gurus regarded James as top 50ish or so recruit. He was injured early, backed up Carrawell, Langdon, and Maggette in '99 and averaged 11.0 and 12.3 ppg his final two seasons, providing healthy doses of toughness and maturity that don't show up on stat sheets but sure win ballgames. About what was expected.

It doesn't seem like the RSCI info goes back far enough, but I remember Nate James being ranked in the top 15 of his class. I'm pretty sure of this, because we already had Carrawell and Chappell signed, who were top-25 recruits, and I wondered why we were still chasing James. Then I heard that he was a 6'6" power player who could actually play some four at Duke, if needed. We got him, and if you remember, he had earned a starting job early in fall practice as a freshman, then got hurt. We know the story from there -- battled through injuries, remade his body to become a true wing, finished strong. But I'm pretty sure he was the highest-rated recruit out of that James-Carrawell-Chappell trio.

[Bob Green]

But I'm pretty sure he was the highest-rated recruit out of that James-Carrawell-Chappell trio.

I don't remember Nate James' ranking, but I do remember reading in the ACC Basketball Handbook that James was considered the freshman most likely to earn a spot in the starting line-up. If I recall correctly, Nates' first injury was to his thumb.

[Edouble]

Edouble,
The comment in question was about guards contributing right away, not over the length of a career. The original poster basically claimed that Duke guards always come in and contribute a lot right away. We both know that's not the case.
BTW, Ricky Price averaged 9.2 ppg (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=295) over the course of his career. I was a huge Ricky fan, but a lot of his problems were of his own doing. It's hard to say he picked the school basketball-wise, given how well he played as a sophomore. But given his academic problems, sure, he might have been better off elsewhere. That said, talent has a way of surfacing one way or another, and if Ricky really were a superior player, he would have excelled in Europe and punched his ticket to the NBA at some point.

True, that was the original question, then a few posts later, Greybeard asked this:




BTW, could someone name some of the top guard recruits who fell by the wayside here. I know that there are any number of bigs who did not work out, but was unaware of any blue-chip guards who flopped.

That's what I was addressing.

[jimsumner]

Nate was one of those strange cases who made the 20-man McDonald's A-A team but not the 40-man Parade A-A team. My recollection is that Chappell was the gem of the class. SI annointed him as Duke's next star. Talk about guys who didn't live up to expectations.

Speaking of Price, he wasn't even a guard. But he thought he was and that was one of his problems. When he put the ball on the floor and attacked the hoop, he was darn near unstoppable. But early in his junior year, recovering from a broken finger, he made a bunch of threes against some second-tier opponent, Western Carolina or some such, and decided he was Trajan and it was a lot easier hanging around the perimeter than getting knocked down by big goons inside. His reluctance to go inside hurt his game dramatically.

It should be noted that K constantly extolled Price's defensive abilities.

[dkbaseball]

. My recollection is that Chappell was the gem of the class. SI annointed him as Duke's next star. Talk about guys who didn't live up to expectations.

A friend of mine watched some practices and pick-up games early in Chappell's freshman year and raved about him, said he would be Duke's next great star. Guess physical toughness is pretty important in the Duke program, and it sure as heck was in the Michigan State program to which Chappell (perhaps unwisely) transferred. Don't think he ever started there.

[natedog4ever]

You guys are picking nits. The guy said he is very impressed by whatever his name is, Williams, that right? He says that he played ball himself, has gone against Jon and did well against him. I don't care if it was a half court game that meant nothing, that BDB knows enough and can play well enough to be on the court with Jon makes his perspectives worth hearing.

Or, do you think that there are many people on the board here who can say the same of themselves; that they can take the court with Jon, any court, and hold their own. You can do that you deserve a listen, in my book, anyway.

This makes me chuckle. I've played against, or with, Hurley (guarding him), Marty Clark, Greg Newton, and Chris Collins, all while "doing well" in pickup games. I was not injured so badly or so embarrassed that I retired from pick-up basketball. Although Marty gave me a scar on my chin that still remains.

None of this makes me qualified to make definitive statements on those players abilities in actual d-1 basketball games. But since some think it might, I will say definitevely that Elliiot will not be on the court at "crunch time".

[greybeard]

You're assuming he's telling the truth.

Why not? Any number of college stars can be had by players who could not compete on the big stage, and I can easily imagine that Jon, as much as I agree with your insights about him, would be one of them.

One of Jon's strongest assets seems to be his ability to evaluate, and, if a guy might be able to hurt him in a particular way, come up with a means of taking that way away (sorry Jumbo, I know that that was horrific writing). If he fails at that, K gives him a breather and Jon can figure out something else on the sideline.

He takes the court against a stranger in a nothing contest, maybe he doesn't want to work that hard mentally. Maybe his ability to compute is less valuable because he does not know what he can depend upon from his teammates.

Anyway, I don't assume the guy is making stuff up. Maybe his words got away from him a bit. From experience, you hold your own with a star on the court, at least don't get eaten up, and it feels like you killed him. Sounds like BDB can play. His exhuberance, overstatement, at least when it is not in the course of snipping at our guys, and I don't think he was doing that about Jon (although, now that I think about it, I can see how it might be seen differently), should be given some leeway.

On the other hand, BDB, if you intended to be snipping at Jon, you're on your own, son. ;)

[jimsumner]

RE: Chappell. I don't think physical toughness was the issue.

Chappell started ahead of Carrawell for the first part of their sophomore
(1997-98) seasons. Many recall the game at Chapel Hill that year when Duke went in ranked number one and had their heads handed to them. Chappell had a distinct deer-in-headlights-game, while Carrawell came off the bench and had a great performance.

K changed the lineup. By all accounts Chappell declined to fight to regain his starting spot and went into a funk.

Except for strength, Chappell outpaced Carrawell in almost every measureable variable. He was taller, quicker, could jump higher, shoot better, pass better, dribble better. But some things can't be measured. Carrawell simply wanted it more.

[dkbaseball]

RE: Chappell. I don't think physical toughness was the issue.

Chappell started ahead of Carrawell for the first part of their sophomore
(1997-98) seasons. Many recall the game at Chapel Hill that year when Duke went in ranked number one and had their heads handed to them. Chappell had a distinct deer-in-headlights-game, while Carrawell came off the bench and had a great performance.

K changed the lineup. By all accounts Chappell declined to fight to regain his starting spot and went into a funk.

Except for strength, Chappell outpaced Carrawell in almost every measureable variable. He was taller, quicker, could jump higher, shoot better, pass better, dribble better. But some things can't be measured. Carrawell simply wanted it more.

Part and parcel, I'd argue. Physical strength and toughness go hand-in-hand with mental toughness. Guys who don't mind mixing it up tend not to go into funks.

[greybeard]

This makes me chuckle. I've played against, or with, Hurley (guarding him), Marty Clark, Greg Newton, and Chris Collins, all while "doing well" in pickup games. I was not injured so badly or so embarrassed that I retired from pick-up basketball. Although Marty gave me a scar on my chin that still remains.

None of this makes me qualified to make definitive statements on those players abilities in actual d-1 basketball games. But since some think it might, I will say definitevely that Elliiot will not be on the court at "crunch time".

Maybe you just are a good basketball player but not a good observer. Or maybe you relied on your physical skills and were short on basketball smarts. At any rate, I sure hope that you are wrong about Eliot. I like the other kid's take much better than yours.

By the way, if you could play with those guys and did, my guess is that your opinion as to the likelihood of their success in actual d-1 games would be worth at least as much as most talking heads who talk way, way too much and end of saying stuff they never would if people weren't paying them to talk too much.

So, you played with Hurley and you thought he'd fail?

[jimsumner]

Let me cite Tony Lang as a counter-example. Lang was never as skinny as Chappell but he wasn't exactly Charles Atlas. And he probably was a natural 3, at least in body type. And he didn't play much as a freshman. But he bulked up enough, competed every second and became a pretty-good ACC power forward. And Chappell was never asked to play inside at Duke. He was always a 3. Phil Henderson is another skinny guy who was a pretty good competitor. I'm not sure Tommy Amaker could have bench-pressed his way out of a paper bag but nobody ever for a second doubted his mental or physical toughness. Ditto for Bobby Hurley.

[natedog4ever]

Maybe you just are a good basketball player but not a good observer. Or maybe you relied on your physical skills and were short on basketball smarts. At any rate, I sure hope that you are wrong about Eliot. I like the other kid's take much better than yours.

By the way, if you could play with those guys and did, my guess is that your opinion as to the likelihood of their success in actual d-1 games would be worth at least as much as most talking heads who talk way, way too much and end of saying stuff they never would if people weren't paying them to talk too much.

So, you played with Hurley and you thought he'd fail?

I hope I'm wrong too, but . . .

I tend to think I'm a better observer than basketabll player. My point was that playing pickup with those guys doesn't really give you any insight into their performance in d-1 situations. For example, I also played pick-up with Thomas Hill.

Any ball that came off the rim or back-board, he dunked back in. Every time. Honestly, every ball that came off, he followed up with a follow dunk. Obviously, this is not what happend during real d-1 games. He played his role.

And regarding your Hurley comment, he was already a star when we played. I did okay and, at the same time, knew he could be successful playing ACC ball and I never could.

[dkbaseball]

Let me cite Tony Lang as a counter-example. Lang was never as skinny as Chappell but he wasn't exactly Charles Atlas. And he probably was a natural 3, at least in body type. And he didn't play much as a freshman. But he bulked up enough, competed every second and became a pretty-good ACC power forward. And Chappell was never asked to play inside at Duke. He was always a 3. Phil Henderson is another skinny guy who was a pretty good competitor. I'm not sure Tommy Amaker could have bench-pressed his way out of a paper bag but nobody ever for a second doubted his mental or physical toughness. Ditto for Bobby Hurley.

Oh yeah, I'm not necessarily talking about weight room bulk. Some of the most aggressive athletes I've ever seen have been skinny but wiry strong, and some weren't even particularly strong. Chappell's problem, it was clear to me, was that he just didn't want to get physical, and both the Duke and MSU programs require a willingness to really get after it.

I'll add, though, that one of the benefits of the weight room is that players who were reluctant to get physical sometimes change completely after bulking up. In our day Alan Shaw comes to mind. Spent some serious time circa 1971-72 in the weight room, and if memory serves it made a big difference in his approach to the game.

[BD80]

... My point was that playing pickup with those guys doesn't really give you any insight into their performance in d-1 situations. ...

God spare us from opinions based upon pick up game performances. I would think we have all learned our lesson by now!

This should be doubly true of opinions from a participant. One, it is nearly impossible to objectively evaluate one's own performance in such situations (typically resulting in a "I kinda held my own" conclusion). Two, varsity players play pick-up only for fun and to stay in shape. They are not there to embarrass other Duke students or to risk injury. Only if they are matched up against another varsity player would you see any semblance of real competition. Imagine playing ping pong against an inferior opponent, one tends to play down to the opponents level, hitting easier shots to allow for extended volleys so it is more fun.

Opinions as to a player's leaping ability or quickness may be well taken, but whether a player will be in at "crunch time?" Please.

EMail's conundrum is a good thing for Duke. We will have at least three wings on the floor at crunch time. I think everyone will agree that Gerald will be one of those wings, and that Kyle will be one of the two post players.

We return three other wings with extensive experience: Greg, Jon, and Nolan. Greg gets too much crap on this board for his defense, and not nearly enough credit for being a true captain, a leader of the team. I don't think there are many players Coach K would rather have the ball than Greg in crunch time. He is unlikely to make a stupid mistake or fail to communicate or to miss a critical free throw. Greg is a senior leader of the team and a captain. Take a stroll at West Point and see if that means anything.

Jon is another leader, and unlikely to make stupid mistakes, and not given nearly enough credit for being a good team defender. I think Jon is the most clutch player on the team and an absolute cinch to be on the floor in crunch time. He is my choice of this team to be a future assistant to Coach K. Jon truly understands the game and what Coach K wants.

Nolan is a great defender and a very good ballhandler. He has unique speed on the team. I think he is the choice for the third wing at crunch time.

EMail could well earn his way into the rotation and have spot time in crunch time, particularly in the offense/defense substitutions. There could also be additional "Crunch time" minutes available against smaller teams where we can play Kyle and 4 wings. Otherwise, the last crunch time spot will go to the post player who can avoid touch fouls, rotate quickly on defense, and hold good rebounding position. Right now, that is McClure.

[ArnieMc]

God spare us from opinions based upon pick up game performances. I would think we have all learned our lesson by now!

This should be doubly true of opinions from a participant. One, it is nearly impossible to objectively evaluate one's own performance in such situations (typically resulting in a "I kinda held my own" conclusion). Two, varsity players play pick-up only for fun and to stay in shape. They are not there to embarrass other Duke students or to risk injury. Only if they are matched up against another varsity player would you see any semblance of real competition. Imagine playing ping pong against an inferior opponent, one tends to play down to the opponents level, hitting easier shots to allow for extended volleys so it is more fun.

Opinions as to a player's leaping ability or quickness may be well taken, but whether a player will be in at "crunch time?" Please.

EMail's conundrum is a good thing for Duke. We will have at least three wings on the floor at crunch time. I think everyone will agree that Gerald will be one of those wings, and that Kyle will be one of the two post players.

We return three other wings with extensive experience: Greg, Jon, and Nolan. Greg gets too much crap on this board for his defense, and not nearly enough credit for being a true captain, a leader of the team. I don't think there are many players Coach K would rather have the ball than Greg in crunch time. He is unlikely to make a stupid mistake or fail to communicate or to miss a critical free throw. Greg is a senior leader of the team and a captain. Take a stroll at West Point and see if that means anything.

Jon is another leader, and unlikely to make stupid mistakes, and not given nearly enough credit for being a good team defender. I think Jon is the most clutch player on the team and an absolute cinch to be on the floor in crunch time. He is my choice of this team to be a future assistant to Coach K. Jon truly understands the game and what Coach K wants.

Nolan is a great defender and a very good ballhandler. He has unique speed on the team. I think he is the choice for the third wing at crunch time.

EMail could well earn his way into the rotation and have spot time in crunch time, particularly in the offense/defense substitutions. There could also be additional "Crunch time" minutes available against smaller teams where we can play Kyle and 4 wings. Otherwise, the last crunch time spot will go to the post player who can avoid touch fouls, rotate quickly on defense, and hold good rebounding position. Right now, that is McClure. So we have Gerald, Kyle, Greg, Jon, Nolan and one more post player. Wow! Please provide Coach K with this idea. He probably never thought of playing 6.

[BD80]

So we have Gerald, Kyle, Greg, Jon, Nolan and one more post player. Wow! Please provide Coach K with this idea. He probably never thought of playing 6.

Actually, we play with the sixth every time we are at home. :D

I meant to say Nolan was the fourth, or extra, wing.

I did say it was a conundrum, did I not?

[jimsumner]

dkb, I think we're pretty much saying the same thing re: Mike Chappell.

[greybeard]

I hope I'm wrong too, but . . .

I tend to think I'm a better observer than basketabll player. My point was that playing pickup with those guys doesn't really give you any insight into their performance in d-1 situations. For example, I also played pick-up with Thomas Hill.

Any ball that came off the rim or back-board, he dunked back in. Every time. Honestly, every ball that came off, he followed up with a follow dunk. Obviously, this is not what happend during real d-1 games. He played his role.

And regarding your Hurley comment, he was already a star when we played. I did okay and, at the same time, knew he could be successful playing ACC ball and I never could.

Thomas Hill's best asset was how quick he was off his feet and his ability to sky. Exceptional. Only reason that he got to play. He developed, showed a tight mid range jump shot game ,but that would have gotten him squadoosh, not even a look, but for that extraordinary ability to get off the floor and to do it again and again and again, and then some more. You missed that?

My experience is that you can get a terrific measure of a player by playing with or against him. In my time, I had a number of opportunities to play with or against guys who turned out to be special before they were or before I knew who they were; I knew exactly what I was dealing with. By the same token, played with any number of guys who came with big reps that I knew were undeserved before they proved it on the big stage, whatever that big stage was at the time.

At any rate, getting to play with the bigs and not embarassing yourself is great stuff. Glad you got the chance. Really, really, really glad I did as well.

[Devils Rock]

Speaking of Price, he wasn't even a guard. But he thought he was and that was one of his problems. When he put the ball on the floor and attacked the hoop, he was darn near unstoppable.

Well, sort of. Price himself was darn near unstoppable, but I seem to remember the ball rarely making the journey to the hoop with him. That guy's ballhandling was less than stellar and it was particularly frustrating because everytime he drove to the hoop I would think to myself "sweet - this is the time he is finally going to throw down a monster slam" and lo and behold it never came to fruition. I kept the hope alive until his senior year when it became clear that we was a headcase and I would never get to see the epic dunks I had envisioned when he first commited as a highly regarded (#6 in his class?!) and super athletic wing.

[ice-9]

Why do we say Scheyer is clutch? I keep thinking about the end of the Pittsburgh game where he panicked and took a half-court shot despite plenty of time left on the clock and two open teammates running towards the basket. (Was that the Pittsburgh game? My memory...argh.) That resulted in a loss and made me think of Scheyer as not particularly clutch...but maybe you guys have numerous counter examples.

[Jumbo]

Why do we say Scheyer is clutch? I keep thinking about the end of the Pittsburgh game where he panicked and took a half-court shot despite plenty of time left on the clock and two open teammates running towards the basket. (Was that the Pittsburgh game? My memory...argh.) That resulted in a loss and made me think of Scheyer as not particularly clutch...but maybe you guys have numerous counter examples.

That's awesome -- you've presented exactly one example of his making a late-game mistake. That would be like my doing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BfScg9cNCs)to prove that he's clutch.

At least my answer was more fun ...

[ice-9]

I'm not calling Scheyer a choker, I'm just questioning the clutch label. Big difference.

[greybeard]

God spare us from opinions based upon pick up game performances. I would think we have all learned our lesson by now!

Two, varsity players play pick-up only for fun and to stay in shape. They are not there to embarrass other Duke students or to risk injury. Only if they are matched up against another varsity player would you see any semblance of real competition. Imagine playing ping pong against an inferior opponent, one tends to play down to the opponents level, hitting easier shots to allow for extended volleys so it is more fun.

Opinions as to a player's leaping ability or quickness may be well taken, but whether a player will be in at "crunch time?" Please.


As for the first statement,, who told you this, the tooth fairy. You have players waiting to get on the court, which means that you lose you sit, and others are watching, and players hold back in a way that what they do does not indicate who they are as players? really, you been around the game and can say this? Really. What planet you live on.

You play with certain guys and they present in a way that well, you just know. Never had the pleasure, but I'm guessing that you play with Hill, Grant or Thomas, and you know. Whether they are going hard or easy, they are like cats, and are always there first and highest, again, and again, and again. You don't notice, and there's something wrong. You play with a pudgy young Adrian Dantley and you know, first that he knows how to give up the ball easy no question, not to make a terrific assist, just that its part of the game. He "knows" when he has caught and is ready to go, and when he has, watch out. If it is not that time, he knows that fooling with the ball is not "ball." He doesn't not play the game, honor the game, ever.

You play with Walter Szerbiach, Wally's father, when he is an unknown sophomore at GWU, there are named players, Bob Talent, transfer from the fabled Kentucky, Ronnie Nunn (head of NBA refs and star recruit from NY, Charlie Davis' running mate from high school), and the guy that impresses the hell out of you is the one with the ridiculously long arms, who dispite being 6'6", moves smoothly near the basket, always seems to find a way, with either hand, to get a clean look and make it, and you say to yourself wow, this kid can play. Talent and Nunn, you can keep them; Mr. Walter, wow.

People do not have to show all they have to show who they are, what their best qualities are. When you've been around real ballplayers, you can tell certain things. Are you right about everything from a few runs; course not. But, if you can stay on the court and fit in, compete, maybe even beat on occasion, when real players are playing, you have opinions that are worth listening to, in my experience. On the other hand, a novice can watch a game and think that he is seeing stuff that is not there, whether the game is at Cameron or on a blacktop somewhere.

As to the second, stop picking nits.

[jv001]

God spare us from opinions based upon pick up game performances. I would think we have all learned our lesson by now!


Opinions as to a player's leaping ability or quickness may be well taken, but whether a player will be in at "crunch time?" Please.

We return three other wings with extensive experience: Greg, Jon, and Nolan. Greg gets too much crap on this board for his defense, and not nearly enough credit for being a true captain, a leader of the team. I don't think there are many players Coach K would rather have the ball than Greg in crunch time. He is unlikely to make a stupid mistake or fail to communicate or to miss a critical free throw. Greg is a senior leader of the team and a captain. Take a stroll at West Point and see if that means anything.

Otherwise, the last crunch time spot will go to the post player who can avoid touch fouls, rotate quickly on defense, and hold good rebounding position. Right now, that is McClure.
I hope you are not comparing Greg's role as one of our Captains to that of a Captain at West Point. Two different roles, being captain of a sports team does not compare with being Captain at West Point. A military officer during a war or conflict will be responsible for young people's lives. That's far from being Captain of a sports team. And I hope we don't have to rely on David McClure being on the court at crunch time. If so, we are in trouble.

[Jumbo]

As for the first statement,, who told you this, the tooth fairy. You have players waiting to get on the court, which means that you lose you sit, and others are watching, and players hold back in a way that what they do does not indicate who they are as players? really, you been around the game and can say this? Really. What planet you live on.

You play with certain guys and they present in a way that well, you just know. Never had the pleasure, but I'm guessing that you play with Hill, Grant or Thomas, and you know. Whether they are going hard or easy, they are like cats, and are always there first and highest, again, and again, and again. You don't notice, and there's something wrong. You play with a pudgy young Adrian Dantley and you know, first that he knows how to give up the ball easy no question, not to make a terrific assist, just that its part of the game. He "knows" when he has caught and is ready to go, and when he has, watch out. If it is not that time, he knows that fooling with the ball is not "ball." He doesn't not play the game, honor the game, ever.

You play with Walter Szerbiach, Wally's father, when he is an unknown sophomore at GWU, there are named players, Bob Talent, transfer from the fabled Kentucky, Ronnie Nunn (head of NBA refs and star recruit from NY, Charlie Davis' running mate from high school), and the guy that impresses the hell out of you is the one with the ridiculously long arms, who dispite being 6'6", moves smoothly near the basket, always seems to find a way, with either hand, to get a clean look and make it, and you say to yourself wow, this kid can play. Talent and Nunn, you can keep them; Mr. Walter, wow.

People do not have to show all they have to show who they are, what their best qualities are. When you've been around real ballplayers, you can tell certain things. Are you right about everything from a few runs; course not. But, if you can stay on the court and fit in, compete, maybe even beat on occasion, when real players are playing, you have opinions that are worth listening to, in my experience. On the other hand, a novice can watch a game and think that he is seeing stuff that is not there, whether the game is at Cameron or on a blacktop somewhere.

As to the second, stop picking nits.

Again, Greybeard, you're too trusting. I have a hard time someone happened to playfour years of college basketball, somehow happens to have also played against Jon Scheyer, somehow also happens to have seen a lot of Elliot Williams, somehow happens to be posting on DBR and also seems to have real problems with basic grammar and spelling. Call me overly skeptical, but it just doesn't pass the smell test.

[Jumbo]

I'm not calling Scheyer a choker, I'm just questioning the clutch label. Big difference.

Good to know that you don't think he's a "choker." That's fantastic. I'm not sure that there's such a thing as "clutch." But I do know that Scheyer has these qualities going for him:
-He's a fantastic FT shooter, particularly in late-game situations.
-He's an outstanding wing defender. Not average. Excellent.
-He can actually create off the dribble with a low turnover rate. This enables him to get the ball to the right guy in the right spot late in games.

So, he basically has all the qualities you want in a tight game. He creates plays without making mistakes, keeps wings from getting good looks and knocks down his free throws.

[Jumbo]

Thomas Hill's best asset was how quick he was off his feet and his ability to sky. Exceptional. Only reason that he got to play. He developed, showed a tight mid range jump shot game ,but that would have gotten him squadoosh, not even a look, but for that extraordinary ability to get off the floor and to do it again and again and again, and then some more. You missed that?

Thomas actually rounded out his game quite a bit as his career went on. You mention his mid-range jumper, but he was also one of the best post-up guards Duke has ever seen. His perimeter shooting was really underrated (he wasn't a high-volume three-point shooter, but hit 38.6% of his career attempts), became a better ball-handler each year and was an outstanding defender. Thomas Hill, in my mind, is one of the most underrated and overlooked players of the K era.

[natedog4ever]

Thomas Hill's best asset was how quick he was off his feet and his ability to sky. Exceptional. Only reason that he got to play. He developed, showed a tight mid range jump shot game ,but that would have gotten him squadoosh, not even a look, but for that extraordinary ability to get off the floor and to do it again and again and again, and then some more. You missed that?



I did miss him dominating the offensive glass in NCAA games. If you have some video, send it to me.

I will throw you a bone though - Joey Beard was not good in our pick-up games and he was not good on the big stage (or not as good as expected). I still don't know if there is any correlation.

[Jumbo]

EMail's conundrum is a good thing for Duke. We will have at least three wings on the floor at crunch time. I think everyone will agree that Gerald will be one of those wings, and that Kyle will be one of the two post players.

I think you can take this a step further. It's pretty much clear to everyone (in the program, outside the program, watching on TV, whatever) that there are three players who have established themselves on a different level from their teammates: Singler, Scheyer and Henderson. The team will be built around those three guys, and they'll be on the floor in every key situation.


Greg gets too much crap on this board for his defense, and not nearly enough credit for being a true captain, a leader of the team.
I agree that Greg gets too much crap. But I also believe that some criticism is warranted. Greg's defense is not good. Not matter how you slice it, no matter how you explain the heavy burden placed on guys defending the point guard in Duke's system, Greg struggles on that end. It's something we have to live with, but it's a real concern.

Also, I'm not sure what makes him a "true capatain." He's a senior, sure. But there are three captains this year. This team has many leaders.


I don't think there are many players Coach K would rather have the ball than Greg in crunch time. He is unlikely to make a stupid mistake or fail to communicate or to miss a critical free throw.

I don't agree with this. Paulus has major guts, I'll give you that. But he has made numerous mistakes late in close games. Because of those guts, it's almost as if he feels responsibility to take big shots. But that has often led to ill-advised attempts. Given the fact that he's not a great ball-handler, he's a little shaky late in games. I feel much more comfortable with Scheyer making plays late, and certainly K has a lot of confidence in Gerald, going to him late in games (including Belmont, obviously).


Jon is another leader, and unlikely to make stupid mistakes, and not given nearly enough credit for being a good team defender. I think Jon is the most clutch player on the team and an absolute cinch to be on the floor in crunch time. He is my choice of this team to be a future assistant to Coach K. Jon truly understands the game and what Coach K wants.

Maybe Jon will be an assistant some day, but that day will only come when his NBA career is over. Again, so underrated -- except by the people who will be drafting him.


Nolan is a great defender and a very good ballhandler. He has unique speed on the team. I think he is the choice for the third wing at crunch time.

There is going to be a legit battle for playing time at the point. I really believe that. Greg might be a senior, but if Nolan has improved, he offers the team assets Greg just can't provide. K stands by his seniors, no question. But he also plays his best players.

[jimsumner]

I just thought I'd jump in here to break Jumbo's streak.

Back to you, big guy. :)

[BD80]

... At any rate, getting to play with the bigs and not embarassing yourself is great stuff. Glad you got the chance. Really, really, really glad I did as well.


You have players waiting to get on the court, which means that you lose you sit, and others are watching, and players hold back in a way that what they do does not indicate who they are as players? ...

You play with certain guys and they present in a way that well, you just know. Never had the pleasure, but I'm guessing that you play with Hill, Grant or Thomas, and you know. ... You play with a pudgy young Adrian Dantley ...

You play with Walter Szerbiach, ... Bob Talent, ... Ronnie Nunn ...

... When you've been around real ballplayers, you can tell certain things. ... But, if you can stay on the court and fit in, compete, maybe even beat on occasion, when real players are playing, you have opinions that are worth listening to, in my experience. On the other hand, a novice can watch a game and think that he is seeing stuff that is not there, whether the game is at Cameron or on a blacktop somewhere.

I see I touched a nerve, an I apologize. I did not mean to diminish your memories of "fitting in" with some college players. I feel like I am responding to Gregg Doyel, who calls himself a "great athlete" because he was all state in high school. I am confident that you were a superior basketball player compared to me (5'10" power forwards were not a hot commodity), and I concede that playing in some pick-up games may give you a better feel for a player's physical gifts. But for a pick-up player to state that a freshman should be on the court in "crunch time" over Jon Scheyer, based upon his supposed pick up game experiences is quite ludicrous.

Your anecdotal (and hyperbolic) references do not really inform on the subject. I was not questioning anyone's ability to state whether Email was a talented player. I was particularly questioning BDB's ability to compare EMail's effectiveness in "crunch time" to Jon Scheyer's, and also to predict success at the next level for either player.

It does sound like you have some interesting stories to tell. If BDB had confined himself to describing his experiences in playing against Scheyer and EMail, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[BlueintheFace]

I don't agree with this. Paulus has major guts, I'll give you that. But he has made numerous mistakes late in close games. Because of those guts, it's almost as if he feels responsibility to take big shots. But that has often led to ill-advised attempts. Given the fact that he's not a great ball-handler, he's a little shaky late in games. I feel much more comfortable with Scheyer making plays late, and certainly K has a lot of confidence in Gerald, going to him late in games (including Belmont, obviously).

Jumbo, when push came to shove, Greg Paulus was our clutch player in most close games last year. An argument could be made for Gerald too (see Belmont, Pitt) but Paulus hit big, like REALLY BIG, shots in plenty of close games. He basically put away Davidson by himself (three pointer, baseline fadeaway, and steal). Then there was Florida State where he had three game-clinching plays in the last minutes or so of play (including the rebound in traffic that led to the tech). Finally, against NC State Paulus pretty much carried us for most of the last 4 minutes of the game until Demarcus sealed it with free throws (two huge Three pointers and a steal). He may not be the best player to have the ball in his hands with 20 seconds on the clock and the game tied because he has trouble making his own shot, but he UNDOUBTEDLY proved himself a truly clutch player last year.

Regarding Scheyer. He tended to disappear last year at the end of games. Also, it is hard for me to forget how he had the ball in his hands at the end of the Pitt game with enough time on the clock to take a good shot inside the arc, but he panicked and launched it from 10 feet behind the three point line and found the ball back in his hands for a rare second last second shot... it was not very poised at all. I would trust him on the floor for sure, but Paulus has more of a track record in close game. I think your memory fails you or your analysis is inaccurate.

[greybeard]

I see I touched a nerve, an I apologize. I did not mean to diminish your memories of "fitting in" with some college players. I feel like I am responding to Gregg Doyel, who calls himself a "great athlete" because he was all state in high school. I am confident that you were a superior basketball player compared to me (5'10" power forwards were not a hot commodity), and I concede that playing in some pick-up games may give you a better feel for a player's physical gifts. But for a pick-up player to state that a freshman should be on the court in "crunch time" over Jon Scheyer, based upon his supposed pick up game experiences is quite ludicrous.

Your anecdotal (and hyperbolic) references do not really inform on the subject. I was not questioning anyone's ability to state whether Email was a talented player. I was particularly questioning BDB's ability to compare EMail's effectiveness in "crunch time" to Jon Scheyer's, and also to predict success at the next level for either player.

It does sound like you have some interesting stories to tell. If BDB had confined himself to describing his experiences in playing against Scheyer and EMail, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm not sure I was ever better suited to the game then you.

Your points are well presented and taken, except for the "ludicrous" part. Honor the intuitive/feeling types as much as you do the thinking/analytic types. They each have their insights that come from different information.

The quality of writing I have encountered here sometimes astounds. Really quite impressive. Those of us with lesser skills sometimes often overstate. It ain't intentional, usually. See my previous post about BDB.

Sounds like you appreciate and understand the game and are an informed Dukie. Nice combination.

[BD80]

I hope you are not comparing Greg's role as one of our Captains to that of a Captain at West Point. Two different roles, being captain of a sports team does not compare with being Captain at West Point. A military officer during a war or conflict will be responsible for young people's lives. That's far from being Captain of a sports team. ...


... I agree that Greg gets too much crap. But I also believe that some criticism is warranted. Greg's defense is not good. ...

Also, I'm not sure what makes him a "true captain." He's a senior, sure. But there are three captains this year. This team has many leaders.

Paulus ...has made numerous mistakes late in close games. Because of those guts, it's almost as if he feels responsibility to take big shots. But that has often led to ill-advised attempts. Given the fact that he's not a great ball-handler, he's a little shaky late in games. ...

There is going to be a legit battle for playing time at the point. I really believe that. Greg might be a senior, but if Nolan has improved, he offers the team assets Greg just can't provide. K stands by his seniors, no question. But he also plays his best players.

Yes, I am comparing being a captain of Duke's basketball team to being a military captain, just as Coach K makes the comparison when he acknowledges he draws his principles of leadership from his experiences at West Point and in the Army. This is a very important issue for Coach K, and is at the heart of what he teaches. I believe that Greg will be given the first opportunity to be in the game a "crunch time", and only if he does not perform well will there be a "changing of the guard". Sorry.:rolleyes:

I do expect Greg will make better decisions and make better use of his teammates, of which Kyle, Gerald or Jon should be taking the clutch shot.

[BD80]

Your points are well ...taken, except for the "ludicrous" part. Honor the intuitive/feeling types as much as you do the thinking/analytic types. They each have their insights that come from different information.

My apologies on the use of "ludicrous." It was unwarranted. I think I flashed back to the reports of Nick Horvath being an All-ACC candidate based upon pick up games. ;)

[Jumbo]

Jumbo, when push came to shove, Greg Paulus was our clutch player in most close games last year. An argument could be made for Gerald too (see Belmont, Pitt) but Paulus hit big, like REALLY BIG, shots in plenty of close games. He basically put away Davidson by himself (three pointer, baseline fadeaway, and steal). Then there was Florida State where he had three game-clinching plays in the last minutes or so of play (including the rebound in traffic that led to the tech). Finally, against NC State Paulus pretty much carried us for most of the last 4 minutes of the game until Demarcus sealed it with free throws (two huge Three pointers and a steal). He may not be the best player to have the ball in his hands with 20 seconds on the clock and the game tied because he has trouble making his own shot, but he UNDOUBTEDLY proved himself a truly clutch player last year.

Regarding Scheyer. He tended to disappear last year at the end of games. Also, it is hard for me to forget how he had the ball in his hands at the end of the Pitt game with enough time on the clock to take a good shot inside the arc, but he panicked and launched it from 10 feet behind the three point line and found the ball back in his hands for a rare second last second shot... it was not very poised at all. I would trust him on the floor for sure, but Paulus has more of a track record in close game. I think your memory fails you or your analysis is inaccurate.

I disagree strongly with both contentions -- that Paulus was definitively "clutch" last year and that Scheyer "disappeared" at the end of games. My hypothesis is that Paulus took on so much responsibility late in games that some people remember the good moments and excuse all the poor shot selection and/or decisions. Meanwhile, because Scheyer's role in the offense was confined to standing in the corner for much of the season, it seems like he disappeared. I guess the only way we can begin to settle this without the benefit of film is to check out the game logs from close games. So, away we go.

-Marquette (77-73 win) -- Late in the game, the big plays came from Singler, Gerald and Nelson. Paulus missed a 3 with 3:35 left and committed Duke's 10th team foul (if I remember, it wasn't even a shooting foul), putting Marquette on the line for two shots with 1:13 left and Duke up 3. Scheyer grabbed a couple of rebounds, committed a turnover, and then played some offense/defense with Lance late in the game.

-Davidson (79-73 win) -- Duke was up 12 with 4:51 to go when Paulus fouled Meno for an and-one. With the lead down to five, Paulus grabbed a rebound of a missed three by Curry. Duke ran the clock and Nelson hit Paulus for a three, putting Duke up eight with 1:23 left. Paulus hit another jumper (that crazy fadeaway, I think) on the next possession, then came up with a steal. Scheyer hit a couple of FTs to ice it.

-Pitt (65-64 loss) -- Scheyer grabbed two big defensive rebounds late in overtime (he had 12 boards in that game, if you remember). Paulus fouled Fields with 2:24 left to give him 2 FTs, putting Pitt up 3. In OT, Paulus and Smith played some offense-defense and actually did nothing that got recorded in the game log. Scheyer had that turnover where someone inbounded to him on the sideline and he threw it away, and obviously the play you described at the end.

-Florida State (70-57 win) -- Duke blows its lead, falls behind 55-54. Scheyer drives and kicks to Singler for a go-ahead three (I remember this play well). Duke's up three with 2:33 left when Paulus gets a steal and a layup. He hits another layup in the final minute, and then that whole situation with Ryan Reid takes place.

-Maryland (93-84 win) -- Neither guy does much of note in the last five minutes, except for a Paulus turnover when Maryland was cutting into the lead.

-UNC (89-78 win) -- Scheyer misses a jumper, gets his own rebound, gets fouled and hits both FTs to put Duke back up 10 with 3:36 left. He turns it over with 2:26 left, then hits all four of his FTs down the stretch. Paulus doesn't show up until he throws the ball away in the backcourt with 57 seconds left, leading to Danny Green's three that cuts it to five. He then fouls Quentin Thomas with 34 seconds left. Thankfully, he's Quentin Thomas, and misses both. Paulus then misses a pair of FTs with 24 seconds left.

-Boston College (90-80 win) -- Gonna break my five-minute rule only because I remember this sequence well as the game-changer. Duke's up three with about eight minutes left when Paulus gets a steal and a layup. B.C. scores. Scheyer hits a jumper. Duke forces a turnover. Scheyer hits two FTs. Rice misses a jumper, Scheyer gets the rebound, then dishes to Nelson for a three that puts Duke up by 10 and ends everything.

-Miami (96-95 loss) -- Duke's down 15 with 5:07 to go, following a Paulus missed 3. Scheyer gets a steal, feeds Paulus who misses a layup. Scheyer grabs the rebound and hits 2 FTs. With 4:15 left, Paulus hits one of two FTs. With 3:42 left, Scheyer feeds Henderson for a three. With 3:21 left, Scheyer hits a three, cutting the lead to 7. Miami scores, Paulus hits a three to cut it to 6 with 3:04 left. A couple of possessions go by, Scheyer hits 2 FTs to cut it to 6 again with 2:13 left. Scheyer hits two more FTs with 1:29 left to cut the lead to four. Duke gets a stop, Paulus gets the rebound and the forces up a ridiculous three (I remember this one well, too) with 43 seconds left. After that point, it's all fouling and such. Keep in mind that Scheyer had 22 points in the second half and Miami couldn't stop him when Paulus shot that three. That's what I'm talking about re: decision-making. We were all ranting about that on here.

-NC State (87-86 win) -- Down eight with 3:56 left, Scheyer gets a steal. Paulus hits a three four seconds later. Duke's down five with 2:06 left when Scheyer feeds Nelson for 3. Duke fouls, gets the ball back, and Paulus hits that memorable, game-tying three with 1:33 left. Neither guy does anything in the last minute.

-UNC (76-68 loss) -- Scheyer misses a jumper, grabs his own rebound and scores with 5:42 left, putting Duke up 68-66. As we all remember, those would be Duke's last points. Paulus misses a jumper with 4:56 left that could put Duke up 4. After a Scheyer rebound on D, Paulus misses a 3 that could put Duke up 5. Scheyer misses a jumper on the next possession, then UNC finally ties it. Paulus and Scheyer miss five more shots combined in Duke's parade of bricks down the stretch.

-Clemson (78-74 loss) -- Clemson goes up 3 with 4:54 left. Paulus commits a foul a little whle later, Clemson goes up 6. Scheyer misses a jumper with 4:19 left. Paulus misses a three down 7 with 2:59 left. Scheyer hits a pair of FTs with 2:42 left to get it back to 5. After a McClure steal, Scheyer misses a 3. Nelson dunks in the rebound. Duke's down 5 with 53 seconds left when Scheyer misses another jumper. Duke gets the rebound, Paulus hits a 3 to cut it to 2. Neither guy is a factor again until Scheyer hits a three with eight seconds left to cut it to 4.

-Belmont (71-70 win) -- No one does anything besides Gerald Henderson. Paulus commits a turnover, misses a three and misses a jumper in the last four minutes. Nothing from Scheyer.

-West Virginia (69-63 loss) -- Game was basically over with five minutes left. The game log is so ugly I can't even look at it.

So, what's all this worth in the end? Not a lot. Paulus had more memorable late-game shots. Scheyer was the better FT shooter down the stretch and made more non-scoring plays. He only had one real scoring binge (Miami). Scheyer had one lousy play (Pitt) and Paulus had a couple (the Miami one being the most frustrating).

In the end, it's hard to go through this without film. I would argue that Paulus shot more because he had the ball in his hands as the point guard, and didn't do the best job of setting up teammates for better shots late in games. Again, though, without film it's hard to back that up.

Perhaps I've been a bit hard on Paulus, but his shot selection late in games still worries me. And I still feel good with the ball in Scheyer's hands, and expect him to have it much more with Markie gone.

Lucky today is slow at work ...

[duketaylor]

"Sounds like you appreciate and understand the game and are an informed Dukie. Nice combination."

What a hilarious thing to say, as if the quoter hasn't been around these boards much the past several years; it made me smile.

I, also, am one to think Duke has a very crowded backcourt this year and playing time will be earned in practice and during early games. Could see nobody in the backcourt average more than 25-27 minutes a game, especially if the personnel allow for full-court pressure and lots of subbing. Just a thought, I'll have to consider making the trek down for K's camp and find out.

[balkan boy]

Thomas actually rounded out his game quite a bit as his career went on. You mention his mid-range jumper, but he was also one of the best post-up guards Duke has ever seen. His perimeter shooting was really underrated (he wasn't a high-volume three-point shooter, but hit 38.6% of his career attempts), became a better ball-handler each year and was an outstanding defender. Thomas Hill, in my mind, is one of the most underrated and overlooked players of the K era.

I'm with Jumbo on this one -- especially about the post-up game and the defense. Ohhhh, man, how those 91 and 92 teams were put together, on defense with the length and quickness of T Hill, G Hill, and B Davis on the wings creating havoc, causing turnovers, then getting the rock back from Hurley on the break (not to mention that other guy on those teams).....

[BlueintheFace]

Jumbo, I am with you about trusting Scheyer with the ball in his hands with the clock winding down because of his ability to create, and I agree that this is hard to analyze without film. However, just looking at your own breakdown provided makes me wonder-- What is it from last season that makes you think Scheyer makes less mistakes or more big shots than Paulus down the stretch? Their performances look to be pretty balanced against each other except that Paulus hit two or three more really big shots at the end of close games. It seems to me that your assertion about Paulus being shaky and Scheyer being better equipped for the situations in question is based more on feel than evidence. This of course is understandable, but I just don't se any evidence supporting your position.

Ultimately this point is not too important since I'm guessing we would agree that both will be on the court in crunch time this year...

[bleeddukeblue]

Hello guys I'm back. The only thing I'm saying is that I have play with and againist both players in pickup games and in the Pro-Am tournament in Durham. Both of these players are very good. Elliot Williams has a in between game. Yes Scheyer can shoot the three and he does well if he gets to the rack to make a lay up. But he is not going to take you off the dribble and stop on the dime and shoot a 8 to 15 foot jumper over you. Thats a part of the game that alot of college players don't have. Elliot Williams might not play in cruch time because he still has alot to learn. But he is tough to guard and when he get to the basket he can really finish. I love Elliot Williams game if Coach K wants to run more he will be on the floor alot(he is quick as a cat). I think when it is all said and done that EMail will be compared to T. Hill. To me Scheyer is a halfcourt player. In crunch time when we must run a half court offense Scheyer will be on the floor. I don't think any of the players are clutch players yet. The closest player we have to that right now is Henderson.

As for defense Elliot Williams is a very athletic. With his quick feet he is able to cut off defenders first step.
Sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes I'm usually typing from my black berry. If I offended I am also sorry(jumbo). Just giving my opinion like everyone else. I did graduate from college and I played basketball! I have nothing to prove to anyone. ;)

[Jumbo]

Yes Scheyer can shoot the three and he does well if he gets to the rack to make a lay up. But he is not going to take you off the dribble and stop on the dime and shoot a 8 to 15 foot jumper over you. Thats a part of the game that alot of college players don't have.

Thank you for a more measured post. That said, it's hard to tak some of your analysis seriously after the above statement. If anything, I think Scheyer's one dribble pull-up is the best part of his game -- his mid-range game is outstanding. If anything, he needs to become a better three-point shooter, particularly off the catch. I think his shot looks much better off the dribble; he doesn't look as natural as a catch-and-shoot player.

[Jumbo]

Jumbo, I am with you about trusting Scheyer with the ball in his hands with the clock winding down because of his ability to create, and I agree that this is hard to analyze without film. However, just looking at your own breakdown provided makes me wonder-- What is it from last season that makes you think Scheyer makes less mistakes or more big shots than Paulus down the stretch? Their performances look to be pretty balanced against each other except that Paulus hit two or three more really big shots at the end of close games. It seems to me that your assertion about Paulus being shaky and Scheyer being better equipped for the situations in question is based more on feel than evidence. This of course is understandable, but I just don't se any evidence supporting your position.

Ultimately this point is not too important since I'm guessing we would agree that both will be on the court in crunch time this year...

Well, even from that crude analysis, it was clear that Paulus took many more shots. That's why I say he's more likely to force a shot. A few times, they went in. But that doesn't necessarily make a couple of those "good shots." For instance, I wouldn't necessarily call this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjSX9O1KmEw)a "good shot" -- he's fading away on the baseline, and it went it. To be fair, it was at the end of the shot clock.

I agree that both will be on the floor to finish games, although I think Smith has a chance to unseat Paulus, and that in close games, you might see some offense/defense with the two of them, at the very least.

[davekay1971]

Well, even from that crude analysis, it was clear that Paulus took many more shots. That's why I say he's more likely to force a shot. A few times, they went in. But that doesn't necessarily make a couple of those "good shots." For instance, I wouldn't necessarily call this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjSX9O1KmEw)a "good shot" -- he's fading away on the baseline, and it went it. To be fair, it was at the end of the shot clock.

I agree that both will be on the floor to finish games, although I think Smith has a chance to unseat Paulus, and that in close games, you might see some offense/defense with the two of them, at the very least.

Wow, this is a pretty silly debate, when you take a step back. Who should be on the floor in crunch time? I'd be damn happy to see any combination of Paulus, Smith, and Scheyer on the floor in crunch time. It'll probably depend more on who's playing well, who's hot, what kind of defenders and defensive scheme they're facing, etc. Bottom line, Duke is going to be loaded with talented, experienced perimeter players this year, and I hope (and expect) we'll see some good basketball in crunch time no matter which 1-2-3 combination is in the game.

[BlueintheFace]

Well, even from that crude analysis, it was clear that Paulus took many more shots. That's why I say he's more likely to force a shot. A few times, they went in. But that doesn't necessarily make a couple of those "good shots." For instance, I wouldn't necessarily call this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjSX9O1KmEw)a "good shot" -- he's fading away on the baseline, and it went it. To be fair, it was at the end of the shot clock.

I agree that both will be on the floor to finish games, although I think Smith has a chance to unseat Paulus, and that in close games, you might see some offense/defense with the two of them, at the very least.

Taking more shots does not necessarily translate to forcing more shots. In fact, I would argue that with a few exceptions, Greg's shots are very rarely ever forced. Even at the end of games his shots are normally threes taken on kick outs, fast breaks, or when the defender goes under a screen. He usually sets his feet in these situations (although he likes to fade to the right when shooting over screens at the top of the key... but he does this all the time).

I think what you are trying to say is that Paulus attempts more shots at the end of the game than he should... not that they are forced shots. That is to say, he should get the ball into the hands of other players with ability to create more often and shoot the ball less. I believe an argument to this effect has far more merit than the one your wording implies.

[greybeard]

"Sounds like you appreciate and understand the game and are an informed Dukie. Nice combination."

What a hilarious thing to say, as if the quoter hasn't been around these boards much the past several years; it made me smile.

I, also, am one to think Duke has a very crowded backcourt this year and playing time will be earned in practice and during early games. Could see nobody in the backcourt average more than 25-27 minutes a game, especially if the personnel allow for full-court pressure and lots of subbing. Just a thought, I'll have to consider making the trek down for K's camp and find out.

I'm afraid I missed the funny part. I took BD80 to task for being what I thought was overly harsh about another poster. He explained himself, and I saw in him what I've come to appreciate is a literalist perspective shared by many readers/posters here, that I have also come to realize stems from a dedication to good writing and their being thinking/analytic types. None of that, I have come to understand, is all bad, just different. Me, I'm an intuitive, feeling type, who sees themes not facts, flow not statistics, as being most important. I've learned to appreciate the other side. Maybe you should try it. :rolleyes:

[Jumbo]

Taking more shots does not necessarily translate to forcing more shots. In fact, I would argue that with a few exceptions, Greg's shots are very rarely ever forced. Even at the end of games his shots are normally threes taken on kick outs, fast breaks, or when the defender goes under a screen. He usually sets his feet in these situations (although he likes to fade to the right when shooting over screens at the top of the key... but he does this all the time).

I think what you are trying to say is that Paulus attempts more shots at the end of the game than he should... not that they are forced shots. That is to say, he should get the ball into the hands of other players with ability to create more often and shoot the ball less. I believe an argument to this effect has far more merit than the one your wording implies.

No, I'm literally saying he takes bad shots -- off-balance (he fades more to his left off the dribble than his right), too early, etc. Now, you're right in saying that an extention of that habit is that the ball doesn't go to teammates who might be better scorers. But I had a problem with Paulus taking a number of shots off the dribble in key situations last year. He is an excellent spot-up shooter, and I love to see him popping threes when he's open off kickouts. If he does that, and doesn't try to force tougher shots, I'll be very happy.