Sabathia No-Hitter?

[pfrduke]

The only hit recorded against the Brewers was a dribbler to the right of the mound that Sabathia tried to barehand and bobbled. Here's the play (http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3562854&categoryId=2378529&n8pe6c=2). What's your call - should it be a hit, or should it be an error?

[hc5duke]

From the replay, it seems the runner wasn't even half-way to the first base when Sabathia fumbled the ball. IMO there is little doubt that, had he fielded the ball cleanly, the throw would have been in time to record an out.

E1

[Papa John]

I would have preferred a third option here--something along the lines of, "does it really matter?" But lacking such an option, I go for 'it's a hit,' as that is how it was ruled... If Sabathia fields the ball cleanly and throws the guy out, we have no debate and a no hitter is in the books... The fact that Milwaukee is petitioning for a hit to be ruled an error in retrospect is ridiculous... He got the W, and a shutout to boot... Live with it, for chrissakes!

[Ben63]

Another option is needed. It was most certainly an error but the appeal better not go through. CC pitched 3 or 4 innings with absolutley no pressure of a possible no hitter, which is undoubtetly the hardest part of picting a no-no.

So while I beleive it was an error, it would be unfair to give him the retroactive no hitter because of the lack of pressure in the late innings.

[pfrduke]

Another option is needed. It was most certainly an error but the appeal better not go through. CC pitched 3 or 4 innings with absolutley no pressure of a possible no hitter, which is undoubtetly the hardest part of picting a no-no.

So while I beleive it was an error, it would be unfair to give him the retroactive no hitter because of the lack of pressure in the late innings.

First, there is precisely zero evidence whatsoever that it is any more difficult to throw 3-4 no hit innings after giving up a hit as opposed to after not having done so (although, to be fair, there's no evidence to the contrary either).

Second, how do you know CC wasn't treating it like a no-hitter. The team was obviously upset about the ruling from the time it went up on the scoreboard. He may have walked into the dugout saying "I want to protest that, and I'm going to keep pitching like I have a no-hitter." Similarly, Yost may have said the same thing to him (or at least said, we'll protest it, so as not to mention the no-hitter for fear of jinxing same).

Third, there's some unsettling inconsistency in your deterministic view here. Presumably, if he threw a 2-hitter and protested this play, you would be on board with switching the result. But because this was the only play called a hit during the game, even though you think it was wrong, you want the wrong result to stand because he ended up not giving up a hit the rest of the game. There should not be "special" rules for how to treat an appeal when it may/may not give a pitcher a no-hitter as opposed to any other time.

[phaedrus]

I would have preferred a third option here--something along the lines of, "does it really matter?"

I'm not a big baseball fan, but it seems like throwing a no-hitter is quite a rare feat and thus having recorded one is something that matters. Clearly, it matters to the pitcher.

That said, are there any rules that actually dictate whether this was an error or not? Seems like it should be pretty clear-cut.

[hc5duke]

That said, are there any rules that actually dictate whether this was an error or not? Seems like it should be pretty clear-cut.

Official Rules :: Official Scorer (http://www.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp):



10.12 Errors

(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:

(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;


From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_(baseball)), more readable:

An error is the act, in the judgment of the official scorer, of a fielder misplaying a ball in a manner that allows a batter or baserunner to reach one or more additional bases, when such an advance should have been prevented given ordinary effort by the fielder.

Like I said in an earlier post, it seems pretty clear cut to me that it should be E1, and therefore no hitter.

[johnb]

How often has the league changed a hit into an error?

[pfrduke]

How often has the league changed a hit into an error?

No idea. But there was mention that Milwaukee had appealed a scorers' decision earlier this year and won the appeal. Don't know what the exact decision was, though.

[Matches]

Clearly should have been an error.

Getting it changed would be history's most anticlimatic no-hitter, though.

[Turk]

How often has the league changed a hit into an error?

IIRC, a scoring reversal will happen every once in a while during the course of the game itself but never after the game is over. They won't change it, or it will be a huge precedent if they do. That's all they need is to have Sabathia represented by someone like Scott Boras....

What I found interesting is that everyone seemed to forget that the typical pressure on the official scorers is to call a debatable play as a hit whenever there is any doubt. This helps both the hitter and the fielder statistically.

Suppose the roles were reversed, and the batter had a long 40+ game hit streak going, and that was his best chance to get on base, and they score it an error. Then there would be all sorts of yelling that the ball was spinning and it was a tough play and he may or may not get the runner out, and it should have been scored a hit.

I also thought the manager's rant would not have been so heated had Milwaukee been the home team. It turns out the official scorer has been doing it for 20 yrs, so it certainly wasn't some newbie mistake:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08245/908530-63.stm

The essence of a judgement call, IMHO. "Reasonable people may disagree..."

[Matches]

IIRC, a scoring reversal will happen every once in a while during the course of the game itself but never after the game is over. They won't change it, or it will be a huge precedent if they do.

I can recall hearing that calls were reversed a day or two later, hits changed to errors and vice-versa. It's not all that common but it does happen. I don't recall one of this magnitude, though.

[Olympic Fan]

Turk, you are wrong to say that scoring decisions are "never" changed after a game.

It actually happens quite often -- as noted, it's already happened once to the Brewers this year. It's not an every day occurrance, but its not that uncommon.

I speak as a former official scorer for minor league baseball. Usually once every other week or so, I'd come to work and find a manager wanting to talk to me about a scoring play I'd made the day before. He'd tell me what he saw on film (once he took me down to his office and we ran and re-ran the tape for 20 minutes discussing my ruling).

I probably changed 70-80 percent of the rulings that were protested -- maybe 10 a season. I know that happens in the majors too -- usually with a lot less fanfare.

Watching the Sabathia play on tape, I'd have ruled it an error -- but I was a tough scorer. I've frequently been amazed what passes for a hit in baseball these days. (forgive my curmudgeon moment).

Kind of off-topic, but my most bizarre moment as an official scorer came at a college game ... the home pitcher was throwing a no-hitter, but with a lot of walks. In the seventh inning, he had two outs with a man on second. The batter bounced a grounder to the left side ... the ball hit the runner between second and third, so naturally the runner was out.

But what most of the fans don't understand is that in that situation, the batter is credited with a base hit. When I announced the inning summary -- "No runs, one hit, no errors" over the PA, it almost touched off a riot in the stands. What a way to lose a no-hitter! Luckily for my health, the pitcher in question gave up a clean hit in the eighth inning.

Historically, there have been a lot of debates over no-hitters. Bobo Newsome pitched nine no-hit innings in 1940, but gave up a hit in the 11th -- it was first ruled a no-hitter and overturned. Harvey Haddix pitched 12 perfect innings for the Pirates but he gave up a 3-run homer to Joe Adcock in the 13th and lost 1-0 (bizarre scoring decision on how the 3-run homer became a one-run win).

Ernie Shore was long credited with a perfect game -- IN RELIEF. Babe Ruth started for the Red Sox and walked the first batter. He argued so vociferously that he was tossed. Shore came in and on his first pitch, the runner was thrown out trying to steal. Shore then retired the next 26 batters. For years he was given a perfect game, but about 10 years ago, baseball changed its definition of no-hitter and perfect game and Shore's perfect game was changed to a no-hitter. A bunch of eight inning no hitters were erased (when errors or walks allow the no-hit team to win. If they are at home, they don't bat in the ninth). So was Len Barker's five-inning perfect game.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

i tried to watch the replay but I seemed to have fallen asleep...

ahh baseball..

was that supposed to be an exciting part?

[hc5duke]

i tried to watch the replay but I seemed to have fallen asleep...

ahh baseball..

was that supposed to be an exciting part?

no, the exciting part comes when you complain about a sport you don't enjoy watching to a bunch of strangers :rolleyes:

[Turk]

Olympic - great stuff and I sit corrected; the "day after" change rarely gets mentioned... Wonder if the fantasy players ever notice when that happens?

When you changed your rulings, was it always to the statistical benefit of team making the request? In other words, you never had a manager who came in and said, "You scored a hit in this situation yesterday, but my fielder should have made the play and I want you to change it to an E so I can tell him to improve his defense." That would be an interesting conversation....

I do remember reading about the Haddix game - it's a classic. I believe there was a walk and an error, and then Adcock hit the dinger. He rounded first and passed the baserunner on first (maybe Hank Aaron or Eddie Matthews?) because that runner stopped when he knew the winning run would score from second... So they called him out for passing the baserunner and ended it there...

And if you'll excuse my curmudgeon moment, could you imagine what would happen to a manager and pitching coach today if a starter went 10 or 12 innings? Their heads would be on a plate minutes after the game ended...

EDIT: Wiki to the rescue!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Haddix

[micah75]

Well, it clearly looked like an error to me. He bobbled the ball with a good chance to throw the runner out at first in plenty of time. Most of the time, those plays are deemed errors.

I say no-hitter.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

You would think in the middle of a heated race for the playoffs that the brew crew would have better things to worry about than this. A no-no means zippo if you miss the playoffs. They got the W. And I read that they're upset b/c even if the hit gets changed to an error, they won't have had the opportunity to celebrate properly. Please...

[weezie]

Clearly should have been an error.

Getting it changed would be history's most anticlimatic no-hitter, though.

Indeed.

CC should have saved himself the shame. Dreadful attempt. If I ever pitch a no-hit, I want it strong and proud, not whiny and petulant. At least, that's what my pitching coach Sandy Koufax always said. We're a couple of lefties, dontcha know.

[killerleft]

My dad was a Carolina League official scorer spanning 30 years. If the first "hit" could be scored either way, he just didn't make a decision on it until a clean hit definitively ended a no-hitter. There were even a couple of times that the clean hit actually made hits out of two iffy ones.

He was also the announcer, so at the end of that half-inning, he would leave out the "x runs, x hits, and x errrors" summary.

The players on both teams would be hollering up to the press box (which was on the grandstand roof) demanding to know how he had scored the play.

Good memories. Then there was the time the plate umpire got tired of the radio announcer I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing about balls and strikes and threw him out of the game. The rest of us fell out laughing and never let him forget it.

[Olympic Fan]

When you changed your rulings, was it always to the statistical benefit of team making the request? In other words, you never had a manager who came in and said, "You scored a hit in this situation yesterday, but my fielder should have made the play and I want you to change it to an E so I can tell him to improve his defense." That would be an interesting conversation....
[/url]

It was the minors, so numbers mattered to kids trying to get promoted. On every occasion I can remember, the manager argued to protect a player (most of the time it was the home manager ... occasionally a visiting guy).

But it's not always as simple as the example you gave. For instance, changing a hit to an error would be a blemish on the fielder's record, but it could have a big impact on a pitcher's ERA. So it would help one of his guys and hurt another. If he wanted me to change an error off one of his guys' bat to a hit, that would help his guy, but hurt the opposing pitcher -- but who cared about him?

I tried to be fair, but I hated to make changes, because that meant filing a persnickity form with the league office. I hated the extra paper work.

At least the managers I dealt with were always very calm and polite as they made their case. I think they were basically fair. However, there were several times during games when players would come by the press box (which was behind the plate at ground level) and scream obscenties at me!

[hc5duke]

MLB’s scoring committee rules against Sabathia (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-brewers-sabathia-scoringdecision)


On Wednesday, the committee viewed footage of the play in question and considered the documentation presented by the Brewers.

But the committee ruled that Webb’s judgment was not “clearly erroneous,” which is the standard set forth in Official Scoring Rule 10.01(a), and did not meet the criteria for reversal.