PDA

View Full Version : Duke's potential 'gold' mine



gotham devil
08-28-2008, 12:19 PM
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/1197134.html

"I think it really makes Duke [formidable], the perception that he is the ultimate coach in college basketball, and what an honor it would be just to have him come into your home much less have your kid play for him," said All-Star Sports recruiting analyst Bob Gibbons.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Now I think he has a chip in the game that no one else has," Telep said. "I believe it is going to exponentially increase his prowess on the recruiting trail.

"What happened on Sunday was a big deal and it's going to continue to be seen that way around the country."

"You know what, for what he did for basketball in our country, he deserves a recruiting boost for what he did," Telep said.

wilson
08-28-2008, 12:31 PM
Wow. Those are strong comments coming from those two. I had frankly considered the potential recruting boon from the Olympics as largely wishful thinking on our part, but those guys know their stuff and I'm inclined to put some stock in their assessment of the situation (even if I still find the over-analysis of recruiting to be pretty silly).

roywhite
08-28-2008, 12:33 PM
FWIW, I posted that link in the previous WRAL "exhilarated" thread. Good stuff.

miramar
08-28-2008, 12:52 PM
If this works out, andI certainly hope it will, we should give an assist to Doug Collins for his reporting on the team and on Coach K.

BTW, I thought it was a really nice gesture when the team came over after the game and shook Collins' hand. It's a shame that the IOC has not given the 1972 team a duplicate gold medal after all these years.

Diddy
08-28-2008, 01:07 PM
I will be happy when the gold mine starts to pay off. These experts can say all they want. I have stated before my opinion of most 'experts' in the recruiting field.

Until top notch players begin to commit in droves, Redeem's Gold means squat for Duke.

roywhite
08-28-2008, 01:35 PM
I will be happy when the gold mine starts to pay off. These experts can say all they want. I have stated before my opinion of most 'experts' in the recruiting field.

Until top notch players begin to commit in droves, Redeem's Gold means squat for Duke.

Yikes, Diddy, you sure you wouldn't want to qualify that somewhat?

http://www.uwire.com/Article.aspx?id=1040978

This article, previously in the Chronicle, talks about the benefits to Duke University overall of K's appearance in the Olympics. President Brodhead certainly sees a major plus to Duke.

Now, you were probably referring to the basketball program specifically, but Coach K, Collins, and Wojo, have all talked about the knowledge they got from the players, the competition, and other coaches, knowledge that they feel sure will benefit their work at Duke.

And doesn't common sense tell us that recruits, whether they be currently in the recruiting process, or 12-year-old players of the future watching the Olympics at home, are bound to have a favorable impression of Coach K from Duke?

Dr. Rosenrosen
08-28-2008, 01:55 PM
I will be happy when the gold mine starts to pay off. These experts can say all they want. I have stated before my opinion of most 'experts' in the recruiting field.

Until top notch players begin to commit in droves, Redeem's Gold means squat for Duke.

I think they are just saying that it SHOULD help. It certainly won't hurt. That picture of the world's greatest players hanging their medals around K's neck... what a tremendous statement of their respect and adoration for him. And we already saw positive influences last year from K's experience w/ Team USA... the D'Antoni style transition game and spread out fast break. Even the influence of Boeheim and use of zone D.

Also, I believe K and his staff have been (and continue to be) pretty darn successful at recruiting top notch players who are a good fit for Duke. And there's no doubt we'll continue to get great players in the future. Recruiting is selling and anyone in sales knows you don't win every deal - even if your product is the best. But there's little doubt that this experience will be a valuable tool in Duke's "sales" effort going forward.

moonpie23
08-28-2008, 01:56 PM
BTW, I thought it was a really nice gesture when the team came over after the game and shook Collins' hand.



well, i know this is my OWN OCD.....but i've got DC on "Super SECRET probation" for all that dang "objectivity" and "negativity" he was vibing during the gold medal game.......he was just IRRITATING me...i kept saying "SHUT UP DOUG!" until my wife came in and glared at me at 4AM...



sorry...

i'm sure he'll be off soon....

CameronBornAndBred
08-28-2008, 01:57 PM
Until top notch players begin to commit in droves, Redeem's Gold means squat for Duke.
Regardless of whether the win assists us in recruiting or not, the gold medal means the world for Duke.
We as fans have a coach we can be extra proud of, and a community that can share in the experience. This event will be one that will be talked about for years to come, and knowing that the Duke family was part of it makes it all that much more special.

wilson
08-28-2008, 02:01 PM
Regardless of whether the win assists us in recruiting or not, the gold medal means the world for Duke.
We as fans have a coach we can be extra proud of, and a community that can share in the experience. This event will be one that will be talked about for years to come, and knowing that the Duke family was part of it makes it all that much more special.

While I'm certainly hopeful that the gold will bear recruiting fruit, I think the above is what Coach K would encourage us all to focus on. I couldn't have said this better myself.

watzone
08-28-2008, 02:16 PM
I asked Chris Collins during yesterdays PC if Coach was working on recruiting on the flight back, he responded, "I don't know. He was in first class."

They have plans, trust me on that.

ugadevil
08-28-2008, 02:29 PM
Until top notch players begin to commit in droves, Redeem's Gold means squat for Duke.

Well does it mean anything for Syracuse?

duketaylor
08-28-2008, 02:43 PM
wat, from what I'm hearing we're close to a couple of commits right now. I sure hope so. FantasyFootball anybody?

watzone
08-28-2008, 03:32 PM
I will be happy when the gold mine starts to pay off. These experts can say all they want. I have stated before my opinion of most 'experts' in the recruiting field.

Until top notch players begin to commit in droves, Redeem's Gold means squat for Duke.


Go ahead and fill the glass to the top in a post! It might make you feel better. No sense in being a "Negative Nellie," after a gold medal. And yes, you have stated your opinion enough in your few posts here and don't need to again. Feel free to include it in your signature line and then you can actually add to the discussion.

Go Devils!

Heelo
08-28-2008, 04:02 PM
I dunno, man. I wouldn't start counting chickens and chalking them up to the gold medal just yet.

K was already a living legend, penciled in by virtually everyone as a top-3 coach of all-time. He's clearly been the highest profile coach (nationally) in college basketball in the post-Wooden era. Knight was probably more "known," but that was infamy as much as anything. Dean's time was more in the era before ESPN was the true powerhouse it became in the 90's. Tark and Pitino has bright-but-brief stints. Clearly, in almost every measurable way (save NBA all-stars), K was already the post-Wooden "gold" standard. How much room was there for his stature to grow?

Duke's recruiting has clearly been impacted by the preps-to-pros and one-and-done trends over the past few years. The very best players with their eyes on the NBA are, with few notable exceptions, not eager to spend their brief stint in college under the thumb of an god-like, autocratic disciplinarian. Like it or not, that's K's reputation - My way or the highway. Winning a gold medal isn't going to change that. If anything, it will only reinforce it.

Sure, the gold medal might help in some instances. A player on the fence between Duke and another school who previously would have leaned towards the other school might now lean towards Duke. But in reality, Duke's recent recruiting misses haven't even made it to campus.

Truth be told, I expect Duke's recruiting to bump up a couple notches in the upcoming seasons. I expect however, that it will be due to a combination of available PT and the staff's catching up to the times and getting seriously involved with kids early and often instead of putting all its eggs in one basket and playing the waiting game.


Just my two cents.

weezie
08-28-2008, 04:37 PM
If this works out, andI certainly hope it will, we should give an assist to Doug Collins for his reporting on the team and on Coach K.

BTW, I thought it was a really nice gesture when the team came over after the game and shook Collins' hand. It's a shame that the IOC has not given the 1972 team a duplicate gold medal after all these years.


Doug Collins was SO much better at commentating than he usually is during the NBA season. I guess it was the excitement and the relative freedom to comment on the officiating. Must have been a relief to be free of Stern and the officials union during the Olys.

Carlos
08-28-2008, 04:41 PM
Duke's recruiting has clearly been impacted by the preps-to-pros and one-and-done trends over the past few years. The very best players with their eyes on the NBA are, with few notable exceptions, not eager to spend their brief stint in college under the thumb of an god-like, autocratic disciplinarian. Like it or not, that's K's reputation - My way or the highway. Winning a gold medal isn't going to change that. If anything, it will only reinforce it.

Except that the guys who are supposed to be the type of people who would clash most with a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" are the guys who just bought into K's approach. Rich NBA superstars who are used to being the primary option on their team aren't exactly the kinds of people one would think would be willing to be role players. Yet the fact that they universally bought into K's approach and that they were willing to subjugate themselves to the team.

So maybe people will be willing to rethink the idea that K's a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian."


Truth be told, I expect Duke's recruiting to bump up a couple notches in the upcoming seasons. I expect however, that it will be due to a combination of available PT and the staff's catching up to the times and getting seriously involved with kids early and often instead of putting all its eggs in one basket and playing the waiting game.

I'm not sure that Duke hasn't been involved with kids early. Maybe they need to offer kids earlier - but Duke's been involved heavily with Brandon Knight and a bunch of other kids in the 2010 class for a long time now.

If Duke's recruiting gets a bump it will be hard to tell just what it's from - new reputation or new effort. I don't really care... just so long as it gets a bump!

Carlos
08-28-2008, 04:43 PM
BTW, I thought it was a really nice gesture when the team came over after the game and shook Collins' hand. It's a shame that the IOC has not given the 1972 team a duplicate gold medal after all these years.

Wait, are you saying Doug Collins played on the 1972 Olympic team that was shafted out of the gold medal?

Man... I did not know that. Did he mention that at all during any of the telecasts?

mapei
08-28-2008, 04:55 PM
Wait, are you saying Doug Collins played on the 1972 Olympic team that was shafted out of the gold medal?

Man... I did not know that. Did he mention that at all during any of the telecasts?

Well, Collins didn't mention it all that much, but his partner sure did. Ad nauseum.

brevity
08-28-2008, 05:05 PM
I think they are just saying that it SHOULD help. It certainly won't hurt.

What a difference a gold medal makes. Sure, we can say now that "it certainly won't hurt," but that was a major point of discussion just a few weeks ago. Coach K stretching himself too thin, taking attention away from his primary job, being overseas with his assistant coaches during a critical recruiting period... man, there were some complainers.

This seems as good a place as any to make a point about Coach K and the Olympics (there's no reason to start yet another thread).

Someone pointed out that in an online poll (maybe from ESPN) that provided a breakdown comparison between the 1992 and 2008 Olympic teams, the only clear advantage for the 2008 team was in coaching, as Coach K was trouncing Chuck Daly.

There's a reason for this. Fairly or not, Daly's job essentially peaked when he was named the Dream Team coach. Because of the stunning amount of talent he was given, and the disparity it created with other nations, Daly was expected only not to screw up. He had at least 6 players that could have coached the team themselves, and none who really needed much coaching. He did his job well, leading the Dream Team to their inevitable coronation, but it was completely thankless.

Coach K, however, accepted the burden of having to right the ship that is USA Basketball. Because of recent history, no opponent was taken for granted, and everyone (players, fans, media) was quick to adopt K's more earnest attitude toward earning a gold medal.

As we all know, this burden became a benefit when the team won the gold medal, and a group of young millionaires jumped up and down the court and popping their jerseys like they were Bucknell. It was hokey, but genuine.

And while it helps, we didn't really need the image of them placing their medals around K's neck, because he was already receiving credit for his accomplishment, more than any of his predecessors. Think about it: back when other college coaches were leading Team USA, there was an expectation to win. When NBA coaches started taking the job, they had everything to lose and nothing to gain.

K is a much bigger celebrity now than he ever was, and I think that can be both a positive and negative when it comes to recruiting. To a high schooler -- to anyone, really -- it's a big deal when the only guy to coach Kobe and LeBron steps into your household. But the young man might also be thinking: can such a big star really give me the playing time and face time I deserve? Can he make me a star too, or just plug me into some 4-year system that other coaches might say he has? Wouldn't I be better off going to, say, Georgetown?

I'm not saying these are truthful criticisms, but it's hard for most people to accept that a now-global icon like Coach K can still be a regular guy. Everything he'll do as a recruiter will be overanalyzed much more than it already was. And don't think that other coaches in competition for the same players won't try to take advantage.

dukeimac
08-28-2008, 05:13 PM
Well, I think I missed something.

First, Coach K does preach defense and if you don't like to play it then don't go to Duke. It is not like the gold Medal team played any of it. ;)

Secondly, Coach K has been clear he wants nothing to do with one-and-dones.

Many of the top prospects think it is all about scoring because that is what the pros is all about and they aspire to get there. Thus, they are not good fit for Duke. Many of the top prospects are thinking about one-and-done and they won't fit in at Duke.

Many of you would more than happy for the top 5 prospects to come to Duke for one year just because Duke might win a championship. But that is not Coach K or Duke. I for one am very happy that top guys pass up Duke and go play somewhere else for a year.

Every player who wears a Duke jersey needs to embody Duke, i.e. DeMarcus, Shane, Nate, just to name a few. I would take Nate James over Kevin Love every day of the week and twice on Sunday. I believe Coach K would too.

Just because the top prospect went somewhere else doesn't mean Duke lost out. Coach K has a reputation of building men and leaders and not glory hounds. Duke has a chance of winning every year because of what Coach K does and I hope he never sells out.

Guys should come to Duke to play for Coach K and Duke and not the gold, they won't win any at Duke or at the college level.

MChambers
08-28-2008, 05:18 PM
god-like, autocratic disciplinarian

Interesting description, but I've never it applied to Coach K before. Maybe you have him confused with Knight?

Carlos
08-28-2008, 05:33 PM
Well, I think I missed something.

First, Coach K does preach defense and if you don't like to play it then don't go to Duke. It is not like the gold Medal team played any of it. ;)

Secondly, Coach K has been clear he wants nothing to do with one-and-dones.

Many of the top prospects think it is all about scoring because that is what the pros is all about and they aspire to get there. Thus, they are not good fit for Duke. Many of the top prospects are thinking about one-and-done and they won't fit in at Duke.

Many of you would more than happy for the top 5 prospects to come to Duke for one year just because Duke might win a championship. But that is not Coach K or Duke. I for one am very happy that top guys pass up Duke and go play somewhere else for a year.

I think it's me that's missed something here because I have no idea how you can say that K has been clear he wants nothing to do with one-and-done players. This year Duke has been actively recruiting Derrick Favors - 6-9 and the #1 player in the class. How many years does anyone think he's going to be in college?

In the most recent freshman class Duke recruited Kevin Love and Eric Gordon. You may remember them from when they were shaking hands with David Stern recently. The year before that Duke thought they were going to sign Brandan Wright who instead went to Carolina... for a year.

Duke's been after plenty of guys who are first year flight risks.

Heelo
08-28-2008, 06:28 PM
Except that the guys who are supposed to be the type of people who would clash most with a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" are the guys who just bought into K's approach. Rich NBA superstars who are used to being the primary option on their team aren't exactly the kinds of people one would think would be willing to be role players. Yet the fact that they universally bought into K's approach and that they were willing to subjugate themselves to the team.

So maybe people will be willing to rethink the idea that K's a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian."

Two thoughts:

(1) The reality of the situation is that K was never really in a position to exert pressure on these superstars and bend them to his will. The reported lack of "earfuls" given to players during practice and games was probably due more to a lack of leverage than a softening in K's coaching style.

(2) TDD and the DBR have clearly been pushing the "Coach K must be a pretty swell guy to play for if Kobe and Lebron say complimentary things about him" angle, but I'm not sure that meme really caught on in the mainstream media. From what I read, media coverage of the Redeem Team however primarily lauded the players themselves for putting aside their egos and buying into Coach K's team-oriented offensive and pressure defense. Coach K's role as the master tactician generally fought for second billing with Colangelo's role as grand architect of the revamped approach to Team USA.


Again, none of this does anything to detract from K or Duke's recruiting; and I'm sure it will help in some subtle ways. I'm just not convinced that it will have a substantive positive effect on recruiting.

SilkyJ
08-28-2008, 06:56 PM
I'm not saying these are truthful criticisms, but it's hard for most people to accept that a now-global icon like Coach K can still be a regular guy.

Dude, every person who is plays basketball and has any aspiration whatsoever of playing it in college knows the name "Duke" and "Coach K." He already had that prestige about him, this does nothing to affect that...unless you're talking about recruiting foreign players, which isn't what you are talking about and if it is, its is largely irrelevant.


Two thoughts:
I'm just not convinced that it will have a substantive positive effect on recruiting.

Well you're a UNC fan, so A) I'm sure thats what you're hoping for while watching from ugly-blue colored glasses and B) why don't you let us do the thinking.

Duvall
08-28-2008, 07:20 PM
I will be happy when the gold mine starts to pay off. These experts can say all they want. I have stated before my opinion of most 'experts' in the recruiting field.

Until top notch players begin to commit in droves, Redeem's Gold means squat for Duke.

K just coached the most-watched basketball game of all time. This will have benefits for Duke University that extend far beyond Dave Telep's top 25 recruits.

Oriole Way
08-28-2008, 08:24 PM
Well, I think I missed something.

First, Coach K does preach defense and if you don't like to play it then don't go to Duke. It is not like the gold Medal team played any of it. ;)

Secondly, Coach K has been clear he wants nothing to do with one-and-dones.

Many of the top prospects think it is all about scoring because that is what the pros is all about and they aspire to get there. Thus, they are not good fit for Duke. Many of the top prospects are thinking about one-and-done and they won't fit in at Duke.

Many of you would more than happy for the top 5 prospects to come to Duke for one year just because Duke might win a championship. But that is not Coach K or Duke. I for one am very happy that top guys pass up Duke and go play somewhere else for a year.

Every player who wears a Duke jersey needs to embody Duke, i.e. DeMarcus, Shane, Nate, just to name a few. I would take Nate James over Kevin Love every day of the week and twice on Sunday. I believe Coach K would too.

Just because the top prospect went somewhere else doesn't mean Duke lost out. Coach K has a reputation of building men and leaders and not glory hounds. Duke has a chance of winning every year because of what Coach K does and I hope he never sells out.

Guys should come to Duke to play for Coach K and Duke and not the gold, they won't win any at Duke or at the college level.

I've gotta completely disagree. I would take a Carmelo Anthony or Michael Beasley 100 times out of 100. Who cares if they're gone after one year? As long as they're quality kids who will represent the university well, the bottom line is that they will help you win a championship in whatever short time they give you. Syracuse is better off for having Carmelo. Besides winning a national chamionship that they would have never sniffed otherwise, Melo has donated millions to the school. Greg Oden and Mike Conley led Ohio State to a Final Four and gave OSU some good exposure.

It all depends on the kid. But I think K would be making a huge mistake avoiding one and dones just because they'll only be in the program briefly. O.J. Mayo is a good example of someone I would never want, because he's selfish and shady. K went after Luol Deng and Shaun Livingston despite them having the potential to leave quickly (Deng was more unexpected, but he was still an NBA prospect out of high school), and I hope he continues to go after top flight talent.

slower
08-28-2008, 09:40 PM
Well you're a UNC fan, so A) I'm sure thats what you're hoping for while watching from ugly-blue colored glasses and B) why don't you let us do the thinking.


JENGA!

Heelo
08-28-2008, 11:19 PM
Well you're a UNC fan, so A) I'm sure thats what you're hoping for while watching from ugly-blue colored glasses and B) why don't you let us do the thinking.

Whatevs, man.

Since you feel the need to resort to an ad hominem attack, I'll assume that you have nothing substantive to say on the matter.

roywhite
08-28-2008, 11:46 PM
Whatevs, man.

Since you feel the need to resort to an ad hominem attack, I'll assume that you have nothing substantive to say on the matter.

If I understood you correctly, you thought K was not a major factor in the US Olympic win, did not have much leverage to coach the superstars in any critical way, and that the players themselves and Colangelo were the key. You also don't expect the gold medal win to have much of an impact on Duke recruiting.

When people haven't paid much attention to your post, or dismissed it, you've become offended. And now you seem to be trying to pick a fight.

And, oh yeah, you're a Tarheel fan trying to tell Duke fans what to think, and trying to throw cold water on a great achievement by a great coach.

Good night.

Scorp4me
08-29-2008, 07:48 AM
I actually agreed with Heelo's first post quite alot. We didn't see the benefits of the 92 championship til much later. Players who said they watched that game as a little kid obviously didn't commit to Duke til they were older. Unless K is in coaching for a lot longer he won't get to benefit from that same effect 10 years down the road. And I agreed that it wasn't K's poor recruiting but several other factors that have contributed to a few seemingly down recruiting years. Personally I think they've been fine, but I know alot of others do not agree. And I think K is figuring out the current recruiting climate and will be more efficient in it. Many will attribute that to the Gold, but I think it probably would have happened with or without it.

Heelo's second post, however, is just wrong =)

dukeimac
08-29-2008, 09:09 AM
"I've gotta completely disagree. I would take a Carmelo Anthony or Michael Beasley 100 times out of 100. Who cares if they're gone after one year? As long as they're quality kids who will represent the university well, the bottom line is that they will help you win a championship in whatever short time they give you. Syracuse is better off for having Carmelo. Besides winning a national chamionship that they would have never sniffed otherwise, Melo has donated millions to the school. Greg Oden and Mike Conley led Ohio State to a Final Four and gave OSU some good exposure."

Let me get this straight, you would take these one-and-done guys. Ok, how many times has the Cuse missed the dance since Carmelo. I can't say anything about K State cause Beasley was only there last year but since he left another player left for the pros, nice trickle effect and they are picked about 7th or 8th in their conference this year (miss the dance?). And for OSU, did they make the dance last year? Nice exposure. Where is the Cuse, K State and OSUs recruiting compared to Dukes?

Yes, Cuse may never have smelled a title without Carmelo but they may never smell it again. How many titles did the Fab Five win?

Over 90% of the posters here were disappointed (not mad not upset but disappointed) Duke didn't get out of the second round last dance. I can't imagine what would happen if they never even make it to the dance. Imagine, Duke gets an NIT invite.

Will you be happy if Duke never wins a title again just as long as they get close?

jv001
08-29-2008, 10:29 AM
I dunno, man. I wouldn't start counting chickens and chalking them up to the gold medal just yet.

an god-like, autocratic disciplinarian. Like it or not, that's K's reputation - My way or the highway. Winning a gold medal isn't going to change that. If anything, it will only reinforce it.

Just my two cents.

Could it be you're jealous because no one from unc was on the Olympic Gold Medal winning team. Sounds like it to me. I thought for a moment when you said god like, autocratic disciplinarian you were talking about dean smith. Duke will always be Duke and unc will always be way less.

Heelo
08-29-2008, 02:22 PM
If I understood you correctly, you thought K was not a major factor in the US Olympic win,

Where did I say that? I take great pains to be respectful on this board, and would never come over here to minimize the talents or achievements of a Duke player or coach.


did not have much leverage to coach the superstars in any critical way,

Look, clearly there is a feeling on the recruiting trail that Coach K's reputation as a confrontational task-master is hurting Duke with certain top-flight (and sometimes mid-flight) recruits. The DBR is very well-connected to the Duke program, and have been pushing the "if Lebron and Kobe can get along with K, you can too" angle in an effort to change that reputation. In a similar vein, a video of Kobe talking about Coach K has been pinned to the top of the TDD free board for about six months now, and is joined by two other Kobe and Lebron interviews and there is no effort made to disguise the recruiting angle.

My point is that Coach K clearly understands that he cannot "motivate" Team USA in the same way he does his Duke teams, and the reason is that he doesn't have the same leverage over multi-millionaire NBA all-stars that he does over young college players for whom being in the coach's favor can mean the difference between developing sufficiently to achieve their NBA dreams or not. This is clear to everybody, and as a result I don't think that angle will be as effective as is hoped.



and that the players themselves and Colangelo were the key.

(1) I never said what I thought was the key to the Redeem Team's success. I was merely pointing out that the media, which molds the perception of the general public, has been player-focused and that K and Colangelo shared second-billing.

(2) But if you want me to rank the contributing factors to the Redeem Team's success, then I will put Coach K in third position. I would prefer to replace Coach K with whoever was the second choice (Tubby Smith?), than to replace a motivated, focused Lebron, Kobe and Wade with Kevin Durant, T-Mac and Gilbert Arenas or go back to throwing the players together without the long-term commitment structure introduced by Colangelo. Frankly, I don't think that this position is even controversial if you're not wearing dark blue-tinted glasses. (And I'm sure I just lost any support I might have otherwise had from other posters on this board.)


You also don't expect the gold medal win to have much of an impact on Duke recruiting.

Again, K was already the nation's highest profile coach on the nation's highest profile team featuring the most national TV coverage. Therefore it is impossible to think that coaching Team USA has raised his public profile in the minds of those with even the most casual of interests in college basketball. So unless it has somehow altered his reputation in some way (and I obviously think it hasn't), it is difficult to imagine that recruiting will be effected in any substantial way.


When people haven't paid much attention to your post, or dismissed it, you've become offended. And now you seem to be trying to pick a fight.


All I did was respond to a post by Carlos that directly responded to my post. And if calling out the kind of petty name-calling that is the hallmark of the Scout boards and the absence of which used to be the pride of the DBR boards counts as getting offended and trying to start a fight, then I guess I'm guilty as charged.


And, oh yeah, you're a Tarheel fan trying to tell Duke fans what to think, and trying to throw cold water on a great achievement by a great coach.

I don't even know what to say here except that if all I wanted to do was denigrate K and stir the pot there would have been many other opportunities to do so in the 10+ years that I've been reading these boards.

In fact, I don't post here often but the last time I did it was to inject some much-needed perspective when half the people around here were about to throw themselves off of a bridge after Lawson, Ellington and Hansbrough announced that they were returning.


Good night.

Why so formal?

ugadevil
08-29-2008, 02:35 PM
I don't even know what to say here except that if all I wanted to do was denigrate K and stir the pot there would have been many other opportunities to do so in the 10+ years that I've been reading these boards.


Feel free to keep posting. Even the Duke/Carolina rivalry isn't big enough to where we can't be respectful and polite to each other as people. That being said, that's about all the support I'll give you in this thread. You're in this cage fight on your own! :D

theman5207
08-29-2008, 04:43 PM
Heelo's points are all totally reasonable, despite the fact that many of us might weight the elements differently. He's correct in saying that in much of national coverage of the olympics and associated news emphasized the players above both colangelo and K. When discussing the program's structure, colangelo was credited for the new approach. In Duke circles and to duke fans, K was a big part of the story; not so much in the national media.

What he neglects to mention is the new market that has been exposed to coach k. While he might be the biggest coach in big-time college bball, he's not a nation-wide household name. What the olympics did was put his name in front of a new audience. That certainly is a boon for his and the program's reputations.

And that was an ad hominem attack.

SilkyJ
08-29-2008, 04:52 PM
I'm as guilty as the rest of you, but let this be a lesson to not feed the trolls.

jimsumner
08-29-2008, 05:53 PM
Krzyzewski has stated a number of times that he's amenable to recruting potential one-and-dones if they are willing to "unpack their bags," i.e. become a fully invested member of the team and Duke community, go to classes, and be willing to evaluate their NBA options at the end of the season.

Papa John
08-29-2008, 08:17 PM
Where did I say that? I take great pains to be respectful on this board, and would never come over here to minimize the talents or achievements of a Duke player or coach.

Actually, you're doing exactly this, but in a passive-aggressive manner, then getting a little peeved when folks are calling you on it...


My point is that Coach K clearly understands that he cannot "motivate" Team USA in the same way he does his Duke teams, and the reason is that he doesn't have the same leverage over multi-millionaire NBA all-stars that he does over young college players for whom being in the coach's favor can mean the difference between developing sufficiently to achieve their NBA dreams or not. This is clear to everybody, and as a result I don't think that angle will be as effective as is hoped.

As a master motivator, of course Krzyzewski comprehended very clearly that he needed to motivate this group of players in a different manner... The fact that he was able to do so and identify the correct buttons to push and when to push them is testament to the fact that he is a master motivator...

I have no idea where your 'coach's favor' comment is coming from... That reads like chum to me... Those who follow the Duke program closely and understand how it operates clearly comprehend that effort and performance are the determining factors for moving players forward, not the 'currying of favor'...


I never said what I thought was the key to the Redeem Team's success. I was merely pointing out that the media, which molds the perception of the general public, has been player-focused and that K and Colangelo shared second-billing.


In Duke circles and to duke fans, K was a big part of the story; not so much in the national media.

I must be reading different 'national media' than y'all, because the stuff I read very specifically identified K as a key to our return to gold... Furthermore, and ironically enough, some of the most vocal Krzyzewski fanboys in this regard have been graduates of the UNC School of Journalism and Mass Communications...


Again, K was already the nation's highest profile coach on the nation's highest profile team featuring the most national TV coverage. Therefore it is impossible to think that coaching Team USA has raised his public profile in the minds of those with even the most casual of interests in college basketball. So unless it has somehow altered his reputation in some way (and I obviously think it hasn't), it is difficult to imagine that recruiting will be effected in any substantial way.

This is where reasonable people can agree to disagree... Frankly, I think it's either nuts or (more likely, in your case) wishful thinking to think that this won't have a positive impact on Duke recruiting down the road...


In fact, I don't post here often but the last time I did it was to inject some much-needed perspective when half the people around here were about to throw themselves off of a bridge after Lawson, Ellington and Hansbrough announced that they were returning.

I personally think it's great that Lawson, Ellington, and Hansbrough are returning to school. It will make the competition in the conference that much better. I'd actually love to see Lawson and Ellington stay to finish their degrees, as Hansbrough has decided to--UNC is a wonderful school.

Jumbo
08-29-2008, 09:56 PM
I will be happy when the gold mine starts to pay off. These experts can say all they want. I have stated before my opinion of most 'experts' in the recruiting field.

Until top notch players begin to commit in droves, Redeem's Gold means squat for Duke.

Yeah, because Duke really hasn't been getting top-notch recruits ...

Jumbo
08-29-2008, 09:59 PM
Well you're a UNC fan, so A) I'm sure thats what you're hoping for while watching from ugly-blue colored glasses and B) why don't you let us do the thinking.

That's completely uncalled for.

77devil
08-29-2008, 10:34 PM
That's completely uncalled for.


I, frankly, was amused.

Devilsfan
08-30-2008, 09:24 AM
Me too. But I think he went a little too far when he called the glasses ugly.
And Jumbo, Singler AND McRobb weren't recent highly rated recruits landed by Duke?
I also think we could have had Love if K thought he was right for Duke.
I also think Ryan Kelly (09 top twenty ranked recruit) would sign if offered.

ugadevil
08-30-2008, 09:57 AM
Me too. But I think he went a little too far when he called the glasses ugly.
And Jumbo, Singler AND McRobb weren't recent highly rated recruits landed by Duke?
I also think we could have had Love if K thought he was right for Duke.
I also think Ryan Kelly (09 top twenty ranked recruit) would sign if offered.

I'm pretty sure Jumbo was being sarcastic. He's not one in the camp of those who think Duke hasn't been going after the best recruits.

Jumbo
08-30-2008, 10:49 AM
And Jumbo, Singler AND McRobb weren't recent highly rated recruits landed by Duke?

I was being sacrastic. Duke continues to sign a ton of top-rated recruits.

Carlos
08-30-2008, 11:03 AM
Two thoughts:

(1) The reality of the situation is that K was never really in a position to exert pressure on these superstars and bend them to his will. The reported lack of "earfuls" given to players during practice and games was probably due more to a lack of leverage than a softening in K's coaching style.



(1) Just to recap here, you stated that K has the reputation as a a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" and I pointed out that being a a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" was not something that would work with the type of players that were on this team. To counter that you pointed out that being a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" was not something that would work with the type of players that were on this team.

Essentially you want to promote a caricature of K as a sideline Napoleon and when it's pointed out that such a picture is in contrast to what just occurred you want to ignore the fact that he was ultimately successful - and did so with the ultimate respect of his players.

Perhaps it's just a question of where each of us is coming from, but to me it's asinine to believe that the behavior of the players on this team developed in a coaching vacuum. Instead, I believe that the change in team persona - over say, a team coached by Larry Brown for example - has a great deal to do with who is coaching the squad.

The point here is that your portrayal of K as a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" fails to fully grasp the complexities of the man and most objective people would rethink that image in light of what has just occurred. So the next time Duke's in a recruiting battle with some other school and the other coach sets down his Coke and starts to say something negative about Coach K as being a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" (instead of say, "ask them about Ricky Price"), well that recruit may have something to think about given the fact that 12 of the biggest names in the game just spent the last 3 summers with the man and seemed to love him after the experience.



(2) TDD and the DBR have clearly been pushing the "Coach K must be a pretty swell guy to play for if Kobe and Lebron say complimentary things about him" angle, but I'm not sure that meme really caught on in the mainstream media. From what I read, media coverage of the Redeem Team however primarily lauded the players themselves for putting aside their egos and buying into Coach K's team-oriented offensive and pressure defense. Coach K's role as the master tactician generally fought for second billing with Colangelo's role as grand architect of the revamped approach to Team USA.

Maybe we're just reading different things:

More amazingly, (http://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories/category.php?category_id=13&id=22809)it was a college coach who gained the respect of these professionals, convincing the greatest superstars in the sport to direct their significant individual talents toward the betterment of each other and away from individual glory.

or

Just as much (http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8489050/NBA-stars-also-thrive-under-Coach-K) as Colangelo's mandate for a three-year commitment enjoined the players, the choice of Krzyzewski was the right balance of discipline and elasticity in coaching. Whereas Brown is buried in his belief of "the right way," Krzyzewski showed it was about focus, respect and flexibility that allowed everyone to be comfortable as a team instead of one-upmanship.

Krzyzewski's direction of the team epitomized the vast difference between handling players "the right way" and "my way."

(Not exactly that "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian.")

or

One, coach Mike Krzyzewski (http://www.eagletribune.com/pusports/local_story_239002151.html?keyword=topstory) deserves a gold medal (coaches don't get them) for his efforts. While I don't think they played team basketball the way we were taught by Red Auerbach and the Boston Celtics in the 1950s and 1960s, Coach K, who I doubted could pull this off, was the leader and many our biggest stars were humbled by the opportunity given to them.

Like Paul Simon said, "a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest."

jimsumner
08-30-2008, 01:46 PM
"I'm pretty sure Jumbo was being sarcastic"


Jumbo? Sarcastic?

Nah. Couldn't be. :)

Trinity84
08-30-2008, 05:37 PM
(1) Just to recap here, you stated that K has the reputation as a a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" and I pointed out that being a a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" was not something that would work with the type of players that were on this team. To counter that you pointed out that being a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" was not something that would work with the type of players that were on this team.

Essentially you want to promote a caricature of K as a sideline Napoleon and when it's pointed out that such a picture is in contrast to what just occurred you want to ignore the fact that he was ultimately successful - and did so with the ultimate respect of his players.

Perhaps it's just a question of where each of us is coming from, but to me it's asinine to believe that the behavior of the players on this team developed in a coaching vacuum. Instead, I believe that the change in team persona - over say, a team coached by Larry Brown for example - has a great deal to do with who is coaching the squad.

The point here is that your portrayal of K as a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" fails to fully grasp the complexities of the man and most objective people would rethink that image in light of what has just occurred. So the next time Duke's in a recruiting battle with some other school and the other coach sets down his Coke and starts to say something negative about Coach K as being a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian" (instead of say, "ask them about Ricky Price"), well that recruit may have something to think about given the fact that 12 of the biggest names in the game just spent the last 3 summers with the man and seemed to love him after the experience.



Maybe we're just reading different things:

More amazingly, (http://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories/category.php?category_id=13&id=22809)it was a college coach who gained the respect of these professionals, convincing the greatest superstars in the sport to direct their significant individual talents toward the betterment of each other and away from individual glory.

or

Just as much (http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8489050/NBA-stars-also-thrive-under-Coach-K) as Colangelo's mandate for a three-year commitment enjoined the players, the choice of Krzyzewski was the right balance of discipline and elasticity in coaching. Whereas Brown is buried in his belief of "the right way," Krzyzewski showed it was about focus, respect and flexibility that allowed everyone to be comfortable as a team instead of one-upmanship.

Krzyzewski's direction of the team epitomized the vast difference between handling players "the right way" and "my way."

(Not exactly that "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian.")

or

One, coach Mike Krzyzewski (http://www.eagletribune.com/pusports/local_story_239002151.html?keyword=topstory) deserves a gold medal (coaches don't get them) for his efforts. While I don't think they played team basketball the way we were taught by Red Auerbach and the Boston Celtics in the 1950s and 1960s, Coach K, who I doubted could pull this off, was the leader and many our biggest stars were humbled by the opportunity given to them.

Like Paul Simon said, "a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest."


Perhaps Heelo was referring to the Chapel Hill media.

BD80
08-30-2008, 05:51 PM
... The very best players with their eyes on the NBA are, with few notable exceptions, not eager to spend their brief stint in college under the thumb of an god-like, autocratic disciplinarian. Like it or not, that's K's reputation - My way or the highway. ...

People, lay off Heelo for expressing an opinion. Remember, in tarheelville, ANY coach who would require a player to exert himself on the defensive end is a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian". It is true that if Duke player doesn't play defense, he won't see the court. Many players would choose not to play for such an autocrat, they would rather play for Ol' Roy where they can spend all of their time honing their offensive skills and interviewing agents.

Coach K is also known to expect the best from his players, even chewing them out when their effort is sub-par. If they were down by 20 points in the final four, I am certain everyone in the arena would know he was displeased. Ol' Roy is much better about keeping his temper and would never yell at his players - and the results showed, they played much better in the second half against Kansas and lost by less than 20.

Remember also that the 3-year commitment rational is critical to tarheel faithful as it is the only thing left for them to cling to to excuse Larry's and Karl's abject failures in coaching the National team.

We can be happy with Coach K's reputation even though other's perceive it differently. I think he enhanced his rep with the style of play in the Olympics which emphasized athleticism and by choosing Marvin Gaye's rendition of the national anthem. Coach K is now as cool as any coach in the nation - oh, and the best coach as well. Yeah, it is good to be Duke.

ugadevil
08-30-2008, 09:37 PM
Coach K is also known to expect the best from his players, even chewing them out when their effort is sub-par. If they were down by 20 points in the final four, I am certain everyone in the arena would know he was displeased. Ol' Roy is much better about keeping his temper and would never yell at his players - and the results showed, they played much better in the second half against Kansas and lost by less than 20.


I'd be careful to go down that road. It's funny to me to criticize UNC's performance in the Final Four when our team was taken out in the 2nd round.

Papa John
08-30-2008, 10:08 PM
We can be happy with Coach K's reputation even though other's perceive it differently. I think he enhanced his rep with the style of play in the Olympics which emphasized athleticism and by choosing Marvin Gaye's rendition of the national anthem.

As much as I liked the Marvin Gaye rendition, I think the Jimi Hendrix national anthem would have been cooler...

Jumbo
08-30-2008, 11:31 PM
People, lay off Heelo for expressing an opinion. Remember, in tarheelville, ANY coach who would require a player to exert himself on the defensive end is a "god-like, autocratic disciplinarian". It is true that if Duke player doesn't play defense, he won't see the court. Many players would choose not to play for such an autocrat, they would rather play for Ol' Roy where they can spend all of their time honing their offensive skills and interviewing agents.

Coach K is also known to expect the best from his players, even chewing them out when their effort is sub-par. If they were down by 20 points in the final four, I am certain everyone in the arena would know he was displeased. Ol' Roy is much better about keeping his temper and would never yell at his players - and the results showed, they played much better in the second half against Kansas and lost by less than 20.

Remember also that the 3-year commitment rational is critical to tarheel faithful as it is the only thing left for them to cling to to excuse Larry's and Karl's abject failures in coaching the National team.

We can be happy with Coach K's reputation even though other's perceive it differently. I think he enhanced his rep with the style of play in the Olympics which emphasized athleticism and by choosing Marvin Gaye's rendition of the national anthem. Coach K is now as cool as any coach in the nation - oh, and the best coach as well. Yeah, it is good to be Duke.

I don't think this is fair and I'm unhappy with several of the attacks on Heelo in this thread. Carolina fans are allowed to post here, and are allowed to present different opinions. And, quite frankly, many of those opinions, in this case, don't vary greatly from my own.

Coach K is seen in certain circles as autocratic. This is no secret. We all know that he manages the Duke program on a very detailed level from an impressive perch, has very high expectations for his players, etc. Duke has never been the right place for every player so, while there's nothing novel about Heelo's point in that regard, it's still valid.

Additionally, I've never bought into the idea that Olympic success would somehow transform Duke's recruiting efforts. For one thing, Duke isn't having much of a problem recruiting kids, so not much has to change anyway. And, as Heelo said, Coach K was already an icon before the Olympics. He didn't really need to raise his profile, and I doubt that a gold medal will be the deciding factor for many kids. Obviously, I can't quantify the negative/positive effect of this three-year experience vs. having spent the summer the same way K always did. My guess is that it will be negligible.

That said, it's silly to diminish K's performance as Olympic coach, and Heelo isn't paying attention if he doesn't think the national media has picked up on it. K has been praised in countless articles, and Sports Illustrated’s recap focused on his ability to bring a college atmosphere to a group of pros. He got the USA job largely because of his team-building qualities, and he was about as successful as he possibly could have been in that regard. And, yeah, it can't hurt to have LeBron, Kobe and Wade constantly signing Coach K's praises.

Again, I'm not sure Recruit X is really going to say "You know, LeBron liked playing for Coach K; I should go to Duke." I just don't think that's how the game works, based on what I know of basketball players. Still, I'm thrilled for all K accomplished and do hope it will combat any stereotypes that hurt his efforts on the recruiting trail as well as negative messages sent out by rival coaches.

77devil
08-31-2008, 07:21 AM
Coach K is seen in certain circles as autocratic.

This statement could be written about almost any successful major sports coach. Heelo's posts, as you acknowledged, stated nothing novel. However, he was baiting from beginning and was slammed accordingly.

People might find it interesting to know that there is a leadership consultant I employ from time to time who uses video clips of three coaches to demonstrate three styles of leadership. Ole Roy is the empathetic type, Bobby Knight is the autocrat, and Coach K is the inspiring leader.

All great leaders have to be tough at times but calling K a god like autocratic disciplinarian, as Heelo did, denigrates Coach K and was unsubstantiated hyperbole. Opinions, especially critical ones, need to be supported by facts. Heelo got what he deserved.

Bob Green
08-31-2008, 07:58 AM
Heelo got what he deserved.

I disagree and, more germane, the Board Decorum and Guidelines (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3350)disagrees:


Lack of Civility - Insulting other posters and generally being an annoying jerk. Focus on the post, not the poster.

I suggest you revisit the rule book.