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CameronBornAndBred
08-17-2008, 05:44 PM
I just got finished reading this article at foxsports (http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/8437764/Picking-the-all-time-Duke-team-(Coach-K-edition)). I noticed it on the DukeUpdate.com page. I can't believe something like that gets printed on a major sports site without some fact checking, but if you want a good laugh, read the comments. Also..who would be your all time K team? (I'm assuming he's talking K's recruits, and not players who played under him after he took for Foster)

Here's mine
PG - Hurley
SG - Redick
F - Laettner
F - Hill
C - Parks
I included Cherokee Parks at center because he is the only one to stay 4 years, and I wanted only 4 year players for my list. Otherwise, it would be Boozer there. Some played dual positions, so that adds to the choice factor (Hill G/F) .The center position is the toughest for me. So many big men, but under K, very few true centers. (At least ones who are deserving to be on this or the honorable mention list).

Karl Beem
08-17-2008, 05:49 PM
Mine:


Hurley
Dawkins
Hill
Ferry
Laettner

devildeac
08-17-2008, 10:33 PM
Mine:


Hurley
Dawkins
Hill
Ferry
Laettner


and I will challenge you with: (just for discussion purposes)

JWill
JJ
Shane
Carlos (as in Boozer, not moderator;))
SWilliams

(and I get Brand on my bench:D)

Verga3
08-17-2008, 10:52 PM
How about:

Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Grant Hill
Christian Laettner
Elton Brand

yancem
08-17-2008, 11:53 PM
I loved how he lumped Banks and Alarie in the group of players before his time but included Gmimski (who graduated the year before K arrived and a year ahead of banks) and Dawkins (who was in the same class as Alarie) in his all time team.

And while I thought that Capel had a very solid career and that the shot against UNC was amazing (probably my most memorable moment at CIS), I think that it is pretty hard to even list him as honorable mention for an all time team.

CameronBornAndBred
08-18-2008, 07:32 AM
I loved how he lumped Banks and Alarie in the group of players before his time but included Gmimski (who graduated the year before K arrived and a year ahead of banks) and Dawkins (who was in the same class as Alarie) in his all time team.


I wish I could pick G-man. I had Boozer on my list, but since he wasn't a 4 year player, I went with Parks (who also wasn't a true center). It's amazing to go down the list of true centers that K recruited, and see the long list of forgetable names. Gminksi was the last one listed on the roster as a C and not C/F that stands out. Boozer, S. Williams, Parks, Laettner all played multiple roles.

yancem
08-18-2008, 08:13 AM
I wish I could pick G-man. I had Boozer on my list, but since he wasn't a 4 year player, I went with Parks (who also wasn't a true center). It's amazing to go down the list of true centers that K recruited, and see the long list of forgetable names. Gminksi was the last one listed on the roster as a C and not C/F that stands out. Boozer, S. Williams, Parks, Laettner all played multiple roles.

I would consider Parks a true center, he even played center in the nba but you are right that most of the true centers that K has recruited haven't produced much.

sagegrouse
08-18-2008, 08:28 AM
I would start with the consensus National Players of the Year, of which, awaiting correction from Jim Sumner, there are five under coach K:

C - Laettner
PF - Brand
SF - Battier
SG - JJ
PG - JWill

Hmmm. I'll go with this team.

The other NPOY players were JD and Ferry, although not consensus. And, of course, the fact that Grant wasn't on this list reflects on the voters (Big Dog got the awards) not Grant's play in 1994.

sagegrouse

ccrazies_708
08-18-2008, 11:00 AM
-JWill
-Redick
-Battier
-Boozer
-Laettner

Jeffrey
08-18-2008, 11:11 AM
Hi,

My choices:

Hurley
Dawkins
Hill
Battier
Laettner

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Olympic Fan
08-18-2008, 11:41 AM
I would start with the consensus National Players of the Year, of which, awaiting correction from Jim Sumner, there are five under coach K:

C - Laettner
PF - Brand
SF - Battier
SG - JJ
PG - JWill

Hmmm. I'll go with this team.

The other NPOY players were JD and Ferry, although not consensus. And, of course, the fact that Grant wasn't on this list reflects on the voters (Big Dog got the awards) not Grant's play in 1994.

sagegrouse


Actually, Ferry is considered the co-concensus national player of the year in 1989. The NCAA recognizes six awards from that season. Ferry won three (Naismith, USBWA and UPI), Arizona's Sean Elliott won three (AP, Wooden, NABC).

I can't see the argument for Parks, there are a dozen guys ahead of him in the K era. If you're going to insist on a four-year player who played center, then use Laettner -- who played center in three of his four years at Duke (you can argue that Alaa played center in 1990 and Laettner played PF; But in 1989, Laettner played center with Ferry at PF; in 1991 Laettner played center with GHill and Koubek at the forwards; in 1992, Laettner played center with BDavis and either GHill/TLang at forward). If you don't like that, then you have to go with Shelden Williams, who unquestionably DID play center for four years and was a far greater player (two-time national defensive player of the year; concensus first-team All-American).

It's a really tough call. I mean, if you go NPOY in the backcourt alone, you get:

JWill
JJ
JD (Hmm, maybe we need more guards with a first initial J)

that leaves off:
Hurley (concensus first-team ACC; NCAA alltime assist leader)
Amaker (national defensive player of the year)
Langdon (three-time first-team All-ACC; two-time All-American)

When you go to the frontcourt, you get NPOY:
Laettner
Battier
Brand
Ferry

And that leaves off:
Grant Hill (concensus first-team A-A)
Shelden Williams (two-time NDPOY, concensus first-team All-American)
Chris Carrawell (concensus first-team A-A; ACC POY)
Mark Alarie

That doesn't take into account Gene Banks, who played just one year for K (and wasn't a concensus first-team A-A).

All and all, a pretty strong group to choose from ... and if you're trying to make it an alltime Duke team, you've got to balance those guys with two more consensus NPOY -- Art Heyman and Dick Groat, plus consensus first-team A-A's Jeff Mullins, Bob Verga and Mike Gminski. And THAT leaves out studs like Jack Marin, Steve Vacendak, Mike Lewis and Banks.

johnb
08-18-2008, 12:22 PM
In terms of peak abilities, I'd go with:

JWill>Hurley>Duhon>Amaker>Wojo>Snyder
Dawkins>JJ>Carrawell>Collins
Hill>Battier>Alarie>Banks
Laettner>Ferry
Brand>Boozer>Gminski>Shelden>Parks>Abdelnaaby

All of these guys were studly, of course, but I think the top 5 guys on this list were the best athletes, and then proved it at the next level.

Bay Area Duke Fan
08-18-2008, 02:22 PM
All and all, a pretty strong group to choose from ... and if you're trying to make it an alltime Duke team, you've got to balance those guys with two more consensus NPOY -- Art Heyman and Dick Groat, plus consensus first-team A-A's Jeff Mullins, Bob Verga and Mike Gminski. And THAT leaves out studs like Jack Marin, Steve Vacendak, Mike Lewis and Banks.

Jeff Mullins was not a consensus first-team A-A. Probably was second team in 1964.

Olympic Fan
08-18-2008, 03:00 PM
Jeff Mullins was not a consensus first-team A-A. Probably was second team in 1964.

You are correct, sir.

Mullins was close -- he was first team USBWA and Converse ... second team AP, UPI, NABC -- while Bill Bradley was a unanimous first-team pick that year and Walt Hazzard made every first team but one, Mullins split the other first team spots with Gary Bradds, Cotton Nash, Cazzie Russell and Dave Stallworth. IMHO the best two players in that group (Mullins and Russell) wound up on the concensus second team, behind Bradds, Nash and Stallworth.

It's funny, because Mullins had almost the same year in 1964 than Heyman had in 1963, when Heyman was the consensus national player of the year -- plus Duke accomplished almost the same thing (one game worse in the regular season ... one game better in the NCAA).

It's also funny because Duke retired Mullins jersey for second team consensus A-A and didn't retire Verga's -- and he WAS concensus first-team A-A in 1967.

BTW: When I made my list, I accidentally left out Carlos Boozer -- who wouldn't make my top 5 or even top 10, but would finish ahead of Parks in my all-time list.

And, johnb ... how does Gminski -- who never played for K -- make your list?

johnb
08-18-2008, 04:11 PM
And, johnb ... how does Gminski -- who never played for K -- make your list?

Good point (because I conflated my experience with K's--I came to Duke in '77).

Classof06
08-18-2008, 04:51 PM
How about:

Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Grant Hill
Christian Laettner
Elton Brand

Co-signed. IMO, any all-time Duke team has to include JWill. I still think he's probably the best CBB player I've ever seen.

Carlos
08-18-2008, 04:52 PM
I included Cherokee Parks at center because he is the only one to stay 4 years, and I wanted only 4 year players for my list. Otherwise, it would be Boozer there. Some played dual positions, so that adds to the choice factor (Hill G/F) .The center position is the toughest for me. So many big men, but under K, very few true centers. (At least ones who are deserving to be on this or the honorable mention list).

Hey, if it's the all-time Duke team under K then you shouldn't have to force yourself to put together a team in a different style than what K plays. In other words, Duke won 2 National Championships with Christian Laettner playing center so putting Parks on the list because you feel he played a true center position is just crazy talk, man.

Besides, at least according to GoDuke, Parks and Laettner were the same exact size and both guys took about the same amount of 3 pt. shots in their senior year.

As for my team -


PG - JWill in a close one over Hurley. You could push things here and say that JWill was a lot like Dawkins in that he didn't play point other than his first year, but I don't care... he's a point guard in my world.
SG - Dawkins
SF - Grant Hill
PF - Battier
C - Laettner

BobbyFan
08-18-2008, 07:02 PM
PG Hurley
SG Dawkins
SF Hill
PF Brand
C Laettner

VaDukie
08-18-2008, 08:56 PM
I am a big Capel fan. The 1994 team was the first I can distinctly remember and he had some great moments in the regionals against Purdue and Marquette. That being said, I don't think he belongs on a list of the top 10 players in the 90's, let alone all time. Other than that the list looks fine.

JimBD
08-18-2008, 11:54 PM
How about:

Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Grant Hill
Christian Laettner
Elton Brand

I basically agree with this list. I have seen everybody mentioned in this thread other than Groat, Heyman, and Mullins, so I don't know where those three fit in. Cherokee Parks had a good career at Duke, but I think that G-Man, Brand & Mike Lewis were all better. I would have no argument with anyone who wanted to include Hurley, Battier, or Reddick on this list. As for Dawkins, I don't see how it would be possible for anybody to exclude him unless they never saw him play. Grant Hill may have been the best player ever at Duke, but I think that Laettner and Dawkins had the best overall careers at Duke.

balkan boy
08-19-2008, 03:43 PM
For me, the frontcourt is easy:

Battier
Hill
Laettner

No one comes close to those three for me.

The backcourt is tricky:

I can't leave Hurley off the squad and could you imagine how many additional assists he would have had if he could dish out to JJ from 25 ft?

Or how about JWill and JD as an explosive backcourt?

Tough, but I'll go with Hurley and JD.

Balkan Boy

Olympic Fan
08-20-2008, 03:44 PM
The problem with lists like these is that we can never quite decide what we're measuring. Do we want the most honored players in modern Duke history? The most statistically significant? The greatest contributors to the Duke program?

Or are we looking for some hypothetical "most talented"?

You can get into debates about guys like Elton Brand -- undoubtedly a great player for a season and a half at Duke. Does he deserve to rank ahead of a four-year contributor like Danny Ferry? How about Grant Hill -- a great player who had a great pro career, but only a one-time consensus first-team A-A (and never a NPOY)?

If we go with the most honored, we have to pick the consensus NPOYs:

Laettner
Brand
Battier
JWilliams
Redick
6th man Ferry (he split the consensus NPOY with Sean Elliott)

If we go with the most significant statistically, we get:
Redick (the No. 1 scorer in Duke history)
Dawkins (the No. 2 scorer in Duke history)
Hurley (the No. 1 assist guy in NCAA history)
Laettner (the No. 1 scorer/rebounder in NCAA Tournament history)
Ferry (the most amazing collection of statistical accomplishments in Duke history).

If we go with championship contributors:
Laettner (without doubt)
Hurley
GHill
SBattier
JWilliams

An All-defensive team:
Shelden Williams
Shane Battier
Billy King
Grant Hill
Tommy Amaker

Hmm, I didn't pick by position, but you could play a game with any of the above-mentioned teams. But let's say I could choose any Coach K players at his peak to play in one game I had to win. I'd go with:

A double post of Laettner (from 1992) and Brand (from 1999) -- neither is a true center, but both played center at Duke. They wouldn't have any trouble playing together -- Laettner at the high post and Brand at the low.

Grant Hill (1994) and Shane Battier (2001) on the wings. Wow -- two GREAT defenders, two great inside-outside players -- one a great slasher, the other a great spot-up 3-point shooter. Both superior passers from the wing.

At the point, it would be tough:

I guess Jason Williams (2001 -- he actually played point most of the 2001 season) for his offensive versatility -- he was a great playmaker and a great scorer ... but I wouldn't argue with Bobby Hurley (92 or 93), who was the best playmaker ever and a great on-the-ball defender (better IMHO than Wojo ... not quite as good as Amaker) or Johnny Dawkins (1986), who only played the point as a freshman, but was -- like JWill -- a scorer/playmaker ... plus he was a superior defender.

I tell you what ... give me those seven (from those years), plus JJ Redick (in 2006) as a shooter off the bench, Billy King (in 1988) as a shutdown wing defender and Shelden Williams (in 2006) as a defender/rebounder off the bench and I'll take on th world in the next Olympics.

jv001
08-21-2008, 03:39 PM
Co-signed. IMO, any all-time Duke team has to include JWill. I still think he's probably the best CBB player I've ever seen.

You must not have seen David Thompson or Christian Laettner play CCB. J-Will was great but not the best.

mapei
08-21-2008, 10:00 PM
Hurley
JJ
Hill
Shane
Laettner

Bench: Dawkins, JWill, Brand

Edouble
08-21-2008, 11:38 PM
Jdub
JJ
Hill
Battier
Laettner

Bench: Avery, Ferry, Dunleavy

Huh?
08-22-2008, 08:53 AM
I would start with the consensus National Players of the Year, of which, awaiting correction from Jim Sumner, there are five under coach K:

C - Laettner
PF - Brand
SF - Battier
SG - JJ
PG - JWill

Hmmm. I'll go with this team.

The other NPOY players were JD and Ferry, although not consensus. And, of course, the fact that Grant wasn't on this list reflects on the voters (Big Dog got the awards) not Grant's play in 1994.

sagegrouse


Boy oh boy I'm all over this team.

Bay Area Duke Fan
08-22-2008, 01:21 PM
Jdub
JJ
Hill
Battier
Laettner

Bench: Avery, Ferry, Dunleavy

Avery over Hurley?

Dunleavy over Brand and Shelden?

Edouble
08-23-2008, 12:01 PM
Avery over Hurley?

Dunleavy over Brand and Shelden?

Yeah, I'd say that Avery would waste Hurley if they were matched up against each other. Hurley's court vision was definitely better, but I remember Kenny Anderson abusing him with some one on one moves a couple of times. I personally think Avery is one of the most underrated players in Duke history. He was a complete stud on the '99 squad. I think that when Avery was playing at his highest level, there's none finer: great shooter, great penetrator, great passer, great scorer. He can also play multiple positions, as can Dunleavy and Ferry, which is why they were included on the bench.

CameronBornAndBred
08-23-2008, 12:41 PM
Yeah, I'd say that Avery would waste Hurley if they were matched up against each other. Hurley's court vision was definitely better, but I remember Kenny Anderson abusing him with some one on one moves a couple of times. I personally think Avery is one of the most underrated players in Duke history. He was a complete stud on the '99 squad. I think that when Avery was playing at his highest level, there's none finer: great shooter, great penetrator, great passer, great scorer. He can also play multiple positions, as can Dunleavy and Ferry, which is why they were included on the bench.

He was always fun to watch, and definately a good one to have on our side. I've never understood his decision to leave early. His career could have really benefited for staying longer. I remember when he announced, my first thought was "huh?"

mapei
08-23-2008, 04:25 PM
He was always fun to watch, and definately a good one to have on our side. I've never understood his decision to leave early. His career could have really benefited for staying longer. I remember when he announced, my first thought was "huh?"

It definitely didn't make basketball sense, but I always got the impression he wasn't too fond of the academic side. That could have been a factor.