Duke-Rutgers game thread

[throatybeard]

Arizona State pulled away from Bowling Green with relative ease and won 67-49. So that's who we get in the final if we beat Rutgers.

[godukecom]

this game is getting very frustrating early...

[throatybeard]

Awesome graphic just now: Bales' NCAAT blocked shots, 60, #1 all time. Lobo, Riley in the high 30s.

[_Gary]

Could someone notify the women's team that they are supposed to be playing right now. Geesh they look uninspired.

Gary

[throatybeard]

I have to wonder if Alleva's public, oral lack of support for Goestenkors during the NCAA Tournament is a morale problem for the team.

[_Gary]

I have to wonder if Alleva's public, oral lack of support for Goestenkors during the NCAA Tournament is a morale problem for the team.

Well it sure as heck can't help. I'm hoping with senior leadership the team can overlook such obvious distractions and focus on the task at hand, but this gossip going around about Coach G has got to have some adverse affect. After all, these girls are only human.

Gary

[_Gary]

I know it's tough to gage these things, and some of you will say I'm wrong, but I'm seeing Rutgers want this game more than Duke. They clearly get all the points for hustle and determination. They've taken it to Duke ever since that early time-out in the second half when Duke was up 10 with the ball. That should have been the time to stick the dagger in, but the Lady Blue Devils didn't do it and now they could easily go home today.

Gary

[Karl Beem]

Just like the NCSU game.

[Karl Beem]

Oh yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[YmoBeThere]

and they both miss....

[_Gary]

and the saddest part is, I'm not surprised in the least... :(

Gary

[365Duke]

feeling so bad for a player. Thanks you Lindsey and Alison. What a heart :( breaker

[calltheobvious]

Well, this one's on the coach. Duke had the lead with three fouls to give with under a minute left. Instructions should have been to foul rather than even give up the opportunity at a three-point shot. Harding should have given the foul, but instead she played defense, tripped over the screener, and gave up an uncontested 3, lead down to 1.

Duke gets an offensive board on its next possession, which gets stripped, good play RU, but Duke defenders should have been making a beeline at the dribbler to give the foul. Instead, they tried to actually defend, and they gave up the basket.

Heartbreaking loss for Lindsey and the team, but even playing an uninspired game, if G had shown greater situational awareness, the odds of this last-minute collapse shrink to very, very close to zero.

[Sixthman]

Played not to lose from the tip off.

[throatybeard]

We will never see Harding or Bales in a Duke uniform again. :(

[Son of Jarhead]

Talk about heartbreaking.:(

Chin up, girl... we still love ya'. Two missed free-throws does not erase four wonderful years.:)

[feldspar]

Well...that sucks.

[3rd Dukie]

I know it's tough to gage these things, and some of you will say I'm wrong, but I'm seeing Rutgers want this game more than Duke. They clearly get all the points for hustle and determination. They've taken it to Duke ever since that early time-out in the second half when Duke was up 10 with the ball. That should have been the time to stick the dagger in, but the Lady Blue Devils didn't do it and now they could easily go home today.

Gary



In hindsight, that was the turning point alright. Except for the 2 muffed free throws. The Rutgers team was just a whirling dervish. They seemed to get EVERY single loose ball. How could this possibly be the same team we beat by 40??

[jimsumner]

Is it baseball season yet?

No way to put any kind of positive spin on this. I've rarely seen an athletic team so visibly tight.

[Madrasdukie]

That was a fantastic season-thank you Lady Blue Devils!!!

PS: The last play and the free throws reminded me of Jason and the sweet sixteen loss in '02 against Indiana....hard luck!

[Susan]

absolutely heartbreaking.

I thought last year's loss was bad, but this one feels even worse. Lindsey and Allison deserved so much better.

Thanks to them both for a wonderful 4 years.

[_Gary]

And now I really, really wouldn't be surprised to see Coach G leave. Frankly, I'll be very surprised to see her stay. She probably feels like she needs a change of scenery, and I can't blame her. And none of that takes away from the excellent observations by calltheobvious. Even with as bad as Duke played, had they been aware of the foul situation there's almost no way they could have lost had they intentionally fouled when up by four and certainly when up by one.

I honestly can't tell anyone here the last time I've felt so low about rooting for sports teams period. I've just about had every emotion possible sucked out of me over these last two years with both the Men's and Women's teams. I'm not mad at them, nor am I disappointed in them. I'm just numb...

Gary

[Sixthman]

Agreed they were tougher, but Rutgers also played smarter and more disciplined baskteball than we did. Our ball handling problems were the product of ill advised efforts to slit the defenders and lazy passes. We missed the game situation on the winning basket, where a foul on the floor would have stopped the ball with no free throws. Rutgers stuck with a game plan they knew game them the best chance to win, even though it relied on Duke losing as much as Rutgers winning. We blew it. Great season, great team, horrible ending. With 20/20 hindsight, probably should have taken a time out before the last two free throws. One the one hand it "ices" the shooter. On the other hand, a chance to sit a rest before a couple of key free throws might have been the difference, and a senior leader is unlikely to be iced.

[bird]

Well, this one's on the coach.

Agreed. G outcoached both on overall game strategy, end of game tactics (that zone was not good, the failure to foul) and as to motivation. Was on fence whether tense Duke women's teams over the years were reflection of Alana's personality. Nah, it is G.

But tremendous thanks Harding and Bales. Great season, great careers.

[throatybeard]

The men lose a of lot these come-from-ahead games like this too. You can't pin this on G unless you're willing to pin those on K.

[Fish80]

I just feel so bad for Lindsey. What a heatbreaking end to her Duke career. It doesn't make any sense. She's such a great kid, and has been such a strong leader for this team. So, so, sad.

As somebody said earlier, 2 missed free throws don't erase 4 years. Thanks for all of your inspired play, Lindsey. You've been a joy to watch, and a tremendous ambassador for the university.

[YmoBeThere]

absolutely heartbreaking.

I thought last year's loss was bad, but this one feels even worse. Lindsay and Allison deserved so much better.

Thanks to them both for a wonderful 4 years.

Perhaps because it is now the more recent loss? Last year was for the title, which would have made a huge difference in the program's profile.

[_Gary]

The men lose a of lot these come-from-ahead games like this too. You can't pin this on G unless you're willing to pin those on K.

Throaty, I don't think it's just about losing games in which you had the lead. I think it's more about not playing with poise in the big games, and seemingly playing tight. It's hard not to put a little of that on the coach.

Gary

[BlueDevilBaby]

Lindsey and Allison, you are awesome. Duke would not have had the season they did without you. Terriffic display of "team" after the missed freethrows. Chin up, girls!

[calltheobvious]

Agreed they were tougher, but Rutgers also played smarter and more disciplined baskteball than we did. Our ball handling problems were the product of ill advised efforts to slit the defenders and lazy passes. We missed the game situation on the winning basket, where a foul on the floor would have stopped the ball with no free throws. Rutgers stuck with a game plan they knew game them the best chance to win, even though it relied on Duke losing as much as Rutgers winning. We blew it. Great season, great team, horrible ending. With 20/20 hindsight, probably should have taken a time out before the last two free throws. One the one hand it "ices" the shooter. On the other hand, a chance to sit a rest before a couple of key free throws might have been the difference, and a senior leader is unlikely to be iced.


Well, it's an original idea, that's for sure. I think that any benefit of catching a breather would be far negated by the fact that she'd be thinking about nothing but free throws for the next forty-five seconds.

She was overwhelmed by the pressure as it was. She made no adjustment from first to second miss. Complete CCs of one another.

Gary didn't say that he expected two misses, only that he wasn't surprised. Am I the only one here who actually expected the worst? I hate that I felt that way, but those feelings were grounded in a lot of history.

[Madrasdukie]

I honestly can't tell anyone here the last time I've felt so low about rooting for sports teams period. I've just about had every emotion possible sucked out of me over these last two years with both the Men's and Women's teams. I'm not mad at them, nor am I disappointed in them. I'm just numb...Gary

It's interesting you mentioned that, 'cause that's exactly how I feel-numb! Co-incidental perhaps but pretty much all of the teams I rooted for this year had painful losses.

I'm gonna watch the Duke basketball DVD (A Cut Above)....

[calltheobvious]

The men lose a of lot these come-from-ahead games like this too. You can't pin this on G unless you're willing to pin those on K.

Throaty, I'm not pinning this one on G simply because "it was a late-game collapse." I'm pinning it on G because she completely missed a very fundamental end-game strategy that would have had her opponent nearly dominated.

I wrote something similar about the VCU end-game when I called out K for not calling a TO after Markie's tying lay-up.

[Susan]

Perhaps because it is now the more recent loss? Last year was for the title, which would have made a huge difference in the program's profile.

No. It has nothing to do with the fact that this loss is more recent. The manner in which we lost (and the fact that it was Harding, of all people, who missed two free throws). The way our season went this year. The fact that Bales and Harding were seniors and had such fantastic careers and such wonderful seasons. The fact that we HAD been playing so well as a team all year. We did not live or die by the performance of one player. Shall I go on?

The pain of this loss ranks right up for me with some of the most heartbreaking men's losses in my 20-plus years as a Duke fan.

[Fish80]

I expected Lindsey to make them both, and would again were she to get another chance. She's made so many clutch plays over her 4 years.

[Chicago 1995]

Well, it's an original idea, that's for sure. I think that any benefit of catching a breather would be far negated by the fact that she'd be thinking about nothing but free throws for the next forty-five seconds.

She was overwhelmed by the pressure as it was. She made no adjustment from first to second miss. Complete CCs of one another.

Gary didn't say that he expected two misses, only that he wasn't surprised. Am I the only one here who actually expected the worst? I hate that I felt that way, but those feelings were grounded in a lot of history.

I wasn't surprised by the misses. Lindsay looked like she was beat when she turned it over with five seconds left. Like the game was already over.

When she missed the first FT, there was no chance the second one was going in.

If you expected the worst, cto, do you think that wasn't lurking in Harding's head too? She's been a part of a lot of heartbreakers just like this.

[_Gary]

My exact comment to my daughter was, "If Lindsey makes the first one, she will make the second. If she misses the first one, she'll miss the second. Count on it." Of course, I had also said after the quick buckets that cut the 10 point lead (and Duke with the ball looking to increase their advantage) down to a 4 point lead that this was now a "game on" situation. I just knew they wouldn't pull away after that. And it's sad when you have those sinking feelings and just expect your team to choke. And that's what I expected. And I hate that I feel that way.

Gary

[throatybeard]

Throaty, I'm not pinning this one on G simply because "it was a late-game collapse." I'm pinning it on G because she completely missed a very fundamental end-game strategy that would have had her opponent nearly dominated.

I wrote something similar about the VCU end-game when I called out K for not calling a TO after Markie's tying lay-up.

Fair enough. You came strong with the strategy in that post.

I'm with Gary on this, at least: the last few years of Duke fandom have been incredibly draining. The LAX mess was the I-beam that shattered the camel in half, but the stuff on the court/field has been tough too.

[calltheobvious]

I'm so flippin' frustrated and hissed off about this one that I've posted about 6 times in this thread in twenty minutes. But the strange thing is that this loss is nowhere nearly as painful for me as the others. And the only explanation that I've come up with is that I've come to expect this to an extent. The UNC home game this year, same, frustrated feeling afterwards, tsoftened by the fact that at the half, I knew Carolina would finish it off in the end. Hell, at half-time of the VCU game, I felt the same thing.

This game, ironically, would have hurt a lot worse for me if the men's season hadn't been so tough to watch.

[throatybeard]

This game, ironically, would have hurt a lot worse for me if the men's season hadn't been so tough to watch.

I could that. I feel better about the whole enterprise when one the women pick up the slack for the men or vice versa. (And the women have been the more winning program 2002-).

[Fish80]

My exact comment to my daughter was, "If Lindsey makes the first one, she will make the second. If she misses the first one, she'll miss the second. Count on it." Of course, I had also said after the quick buckets that cut the 10 point lead (and Duke with the ball looking to increase their advantage) down to a 4 point lead that this was now a "game on" situation. I just knew they wouldn't pull away after that. And it's sad when you have those sinking feelings and just expect your team to choke. And that's what I expected. And I hate that I feel that way.

Gary

What sort of perverse pleasure to you get by predicting tragedy AFTER THE FACT?

[BlueDevilBaby]

I actually thought that if she missed the first, she was going to make the second, but I knew it was long when it left her hand. Still, we had a put-back shot. For me, this hurts more than the men's loss because I expected a NC from the women. Unfortunately, I expect Coach G to be gone. If so, I hope it does not lead to transfers, or Duke women will be in TROUBLE.:confused:

[bird]

The men lose a of lot these come-from-ahead games like this too. You can't pin this on G unless you're willing to pin those on K.

No one is perfect. K has had seasons where he has done a better job coaching than others. 1986-87, and 87-88, IMO, were better than 2006-07. So, yeah, I am willing to "pin" the men's results on K.

G, for all her strengths, has her weaknesses. One that has gotten a fair amount of attention is the tendency of her teams to play tight from time to time. G has made admissions that she has tried to work on her demeanor, recognizing that some of the tension comes from the top. During Alana's years, I thought Alana was yin to G's yang in terms of generating tension. I think tension defeated us today more than anything else. I wasn't thrilled with the tactics, either, but those would not have mattered if Duke had been in the flow. Where was the creativity from Abby? How could Smith play so poorly for so long?

[_Gary]

What sort of perverse pleasure to you get by predicting tragedy AFTER THE FACT?

I get no pleasure in feeling like doom is just around the corner in a game. It's just what it is. But I don't understand the "after the fact" point of your question. I never predicted anything after the fact.

Gary

[mapei]

This is going to sound awful, but I watched the first few minutes and thought we looked outplayed from the beginning. Abby in particular looked like she didn't belong out there. I tuned in later in spots and saw Alison make some very good defensive plays but also throw up some horrible shots. Lindsey looked turnover-prone. Rutgers was quicker and stronger to the loose balls. Duke had a lead, somehow, but not the momentum. I couldn't bear to watch the rest, for fear that it would turn out exactly as it did. :(

[gadzooks]

So. damn. painful. It has been so incredibly frustrating these past few years to watch the team play so well during the regular season and then fall apart in the tournament. I've been a huge fan and supporter of Coach G, but after this game I'm starting to wonder if we need a shake-up. Feh.

[Susan]

I know what you mean about the sense of impending doom and then numbness. I had it for at least the second half of the men's season. Every game, no matter what our lead. The VCU game came as no surprise. I expected more of the women. Maybe next year I'll graduate to numbness with them as well. :(

[KandG]

Not letting G off the hook or anything like that, but a lot of what I'm hearing about her in this thread and elsewhere (no championships, time for a change of scenery) was also said about K after the 1990 team got destroyed by Vegas. You know, despite all those final fours...can't win the big one, teams play tight in big moments, etc etc. And he did consider the Celtics coaching vacancy very seriously as a result.

Just saying that I don't know if we want to ride Gail out on a rail for her results at this point. What she's done with our program is not exactly easy to duplicate. Personally, I've been proud of the team she puts out on the floor every year and her players represent Duke as well as anyone. Whether she can get over this latest blow, I don't know, but I think she deserves the chance.

[Fish80]

I get no pleasure in feeling like doom is just around the corner in a game. It's just what it is. But I don't understand the "after the fact" point of your question. I never predicted anything after the fact.

Gary

I'm very frustrated and in some psychological transfer technique took it out on you. You may very well have felt doom was around the corner, and said what you said about the free throws before hand. I should take you at your word on that. I just read the post after it was all over and reacted badly, thinking okay here's some guy puffing up his predictive feathers over a tragic loss. Wrong and twisted logic on my part.

[_Gary]

Not letting G off the hook or anything like that, but a lot of what I'm hearing about her in this thread and elsewhere (no championships, time for a change of scenery)...

Just for the record, I for one am not advocating her leaving. I've only said that I wouldn't be surprised if that was her choice. Nor would I blame her or hold it against her. But I'm not calling for her to leave, in spite of some of the "playing tight" issues that I think are legit concerns.

Gary

[_Gary]

I'm very frustrated and in some psychological transfer technique took it out on you. You may very well have felt doom was around the corner, and said what you said about the free throws before hand. I should take you at your word on that. I just read the post after it was all over and reactly badly, thinking okay here's some guy puffing up his predictive feathers over a tragic loss. Wrong and twisted logic on my part.

All's fine, Fish. I think it's helpful for us to be able to have a place to "let it all out", so to speak. But yeah, I'm not lying. I did, unfortunately, say what I did. And you have no idea how much I didn't want it to end that way.

Gary

[FireOgilvie]

It's pretty obvious that if G left, Alleva would go after Pokey Chatman.

[calltheobvious]

Not letting G off the hook or anything like that, but a lot of what I'm hearing about her in this thread and elsewhere (no championships, time for a change of scenery) was also said about K after the 1990 team got destroyed by Vegas. You know, despite all those final fours...can't win the big one, teams play tight in big moments, etc etc. And he did consider the Celtics coaching vacancy very seriously as a result.

Just saying that I don't know if we want to ride Gail out on a rail for her results at this point. What she's done with our program is not exactly easy to duplicate. Personally, I've been proud of the team she puts out of the floor every year and her players represent Duke as well as anyone. Whether she can get over this latest blow, I don't know, but I think she deserves the chance.


Not that I had any desire to see G go, despite my increasingly firm belief that she struggles in high-pressure situations, but your post was a big wake-up call for me. It's easy to get caught up in the disappointment of coming close so many times, especially when you feel that we should have gotten one last year and had the best team this year.

But the inescapable reality is that I have never felt anything but pride in my university and the program when I watch the spirit with which our women play, the poise with which they carry themselves off the floor, the genuine goodness they demonstrate as people and teammates, as evidenced by their collective reaction to the end of the game today.

If given the choice, I would not wish to win even a single national championship at the expense of feeling these other things about the members of the program. And for those things, as well as tremendous on-court success, Coach G deserves high, high marks. I hope she will do Duke the honor of staying.

Once again, Joe Alleva is a dipstick.

[BlueDevilBaby]

I definitely don't want to see her go, but I've got a bad, bad feeling about this, particularly after Alleva's less than stellar vote of confidence.

[jjasper0729]

As a freshman during her first year, I have been amazed at how she's been able to get this program to the top year in and year out. I remember the 4 OT game against Alabama in the mid-90s that was probably the turning point.

I also remember an old womens coach (not basketball) telling me that Duke never has had any real respect for their women's programs that they had always been second rate, under Butters and then carrying on under Alleva.

If they let Coach G walk, it will be a real shame and a picture of true and utter stupidity.

[Saratoga2]

No one is perfect. K has had seasons where he has done a better job coaching than others. 1986-87, and 87-88, IMO, were better than 2006-07. So, yeah, I am willing to "pin" the men's results on K.

G, for all her strengths, has her weaknesses. One that has gotten a fair amount of attention is the tendency of her teams to play tight from time to time. G has made admissions that she has tried to work on her demeanor, recognizing that some of the tension comes from the top. During Alana's years, I thought Alana was yin to G's yang in terms of generating tension. I think tension defeated us today more than anything else. I wasn't thrilled with the tactics, either, but those would not have mattered if Duke had been in the flow. Where was the creativity from Abby? How could Smith play so poorly for so long?

Bales forced some shots but she also was a force offensively and defensively. I agree that neither Wayner not Smith had good games, frequently forcing plays when they could have played under better control. We really got little from other players on the floor and they seemed to be reeling under the aggressiveness of Rutgers. Kind of reminds one of the Maryland game last year when we had the game but let it slip away. Turnovers, poor decisions and defensive lapses. Mitch looked good and I wished she would have gotten into the offense a little more. All we needed is one more basket and we must have thrown 10 away.

Could coach G have used better tactics? Probably, but it was also the players on the floor who couldn't get the job done.

[_Gary]

One thing I've yet to see anyone mention. How many possessions in a row did Rutgers score on to end the game? Seemed like 10 or so to me, but perhaps that's a false impression I had. I kept thinking we only need one stop, for what seemed like the last 4 or 5 minutes of the game, yet they kept scoring and scoring and scoring. To Duke's credit, they matched that almost every time down the court themselves. Unfortunately, "almost every time" wasn't good enough today.

Gary

[devildownunder]

The men lose a of lot these come-from-ahead games like this too. You can't pin this on G unless you're willing to pin those on K.

I don't necessarily agree that if you blame one you have to blame the other, every meltdown has its own causes, but I think some of K's "come-from-ahead" losses have been his fault. I also think he's suffered some of those because he's managed to get an inferior team into a position to win. As much as I love Coach G, I can't honestly say that I recall any losses like that for her in big games. Maybe someone will check me on that.

[rsvman]

One thing I've yet to see anyone mention. How many possessions in a row did Rutgers score on to end the game? Seemed like 10 or so to me, but perhaps that's a false impression I had. I kept thinking we only need one stop, for what seemed like the last 4 or 5 minutes of the game, yet they kept scoring and scoring and scoring. To Duke's credit, they matched that almost every time down the court themselves. Unfortunately, "almost every time" wasn't good enough today.

Gary
It was a lot, Gary, but I dont' know exactly how many. The amazing thing to me was how many of those shots looked bad, but somehow ended up in the basket anyway. It seemed like they'd barely reach the front rim, and then they'd bounce up and somehow fall in. It was very frustrating.

[_Gary]

It was a lot, Gary, but I dont' know exactly how many. The amazing thing to me was how many of those shots looked bad, but somehow ended up in the basket anyway. It seemed like they'd barely reach the front rim, and then they'd bounce up and somehow fall in. It was very frustrating.

Yep, I thought exactly the same thing. I can't tell you how many times my daughter and I let out a very loud sigh or "oh brother" after one of those shots would clank off the front rim and drop in. It happened at least 3 times in those final few minutes. It was very aggravating and it seemed like the perfect storm.

Gary

[fogey]

Lindsey should NEVER have been in a position to have to make the free throws. Duke had 3 fouls to give, up 4 with 1:05 (I think) to play. Rutgers had taken 20+ seconds to set up on each half court set the whole game. Giving a foul 15 seconds into consecutive possessions would have shortened the game and IMHO changed the outcome. End of game coaching 101. While I have profound respect for Coach G and all she has done for DU, that was an unfortunate strategic error.
Having said that, we should dump Alleva and keep G at all costs.