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View Full Version : Unbelievable - Spanish BBall Team



brumby041
08-12-2008, 10:33 AM
Did anyone else see this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/11/olympicsbasketball.olympics20081

I can't believe that a company would create an ad like this or that a publisher would actually print it.

Can the IOC impose sanctions?

killerleft
08-12-2008, 10:59 AM
I'm unusually slow this morning. I had to read the story to figure out just what they were doing.

Yeah, how could a whole group plus a photographer and admen not figure out they were playing with stupid fire?

billybreen
08-12-2008, 11:05 AM
Did anyone else see this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/11/olympicsbasketball.olympics20081

I can't believe that a company would create an ad like this or that a publisher would actually print it.

Can the IOC impose sanctions?

As the article points out, Spain has a pretty atrocious recent past on race relations. In that light, this isn't surprising, though you would think they might have learned their lesson by now.

studdlee10
08-12-2008, 11:21 AM
I'm not the most racially sensitive Asian American around, but this is plain ridiculous and offensive. How can this be interpreted in any way other than negatively? I don't see a single scenario where this gesture would be appropriate, especially during the Olympics in China.

Now I hope the USA just destroys Spain.

Johnboy
08-12-2008, 11:24 AM
Now I hope the USA just destroys Spain.

Too bad China didn't beat them.

Diddy
08-12-2008, 01:37 PM
I have lived abroad and traveled extensively in Europe, and the Continent is the most racist area on earth, and I am from the South. Such attitudes are accepted and even encouraged in these nations. Europes fanaticism with Soccer is not about the game. It is merely an acceptable outlet for racism whereby the fans are allowed, nay, encouraged to be as racist as they like. Watch the stands at a soccer pitch in Europe (Not Great Britain) and you will be truly horrified.

COYS
08-12-2008, 01:48 PM
It is too bad that racism blots the European soccer landscape. It's such a great game and the Champions League is such a great competition. A shame that it is tarnished by groups of bigoted idiots.

Anyway, it is just unbelievably appalling that the Spanish team did this. Can you imagine what would have happened if the games were in Nairobi and a European team had taken a picture of themselves wearing black paint? This is on the same level of idiocy.

sagegrouse
08-12-2008, 01:53 PM
It seems as though "honestidad politica" is not as well developed in Spain as in the US. I wonder if the multi-racial societies in Latin America are more circumspect.

sagegrouse
'urogallo de salvia'

miramar
08-12-2008, 02:12 PM
I have been to Spain 15 times since I spent a year studying at the University of Barcelona in the 1970s.

As the article notes, it would not even occur to most Spaniards that anyone would find this gesture offensive (or ridiculous, silly, etc.), which is a shame. Ironically, Spain is a remarkably tolerant society with a large and growing Chinese community.

Football fans are something else again. In many cases they will say absolutely anything to get inside the opponents' heads, so that means that race, religion, the players' sisters, and just about anything else is fair game. They can be quite crude, but fortunately nothing compared to many of their English counterparts. Spanish fans actually use the English words supporters and hooligans, and understand the difference between the two.

Finally, the buildup to the Olympic Games in Spain during the month of July was actually far greater than anything here in the US. Newspapers and TV had a tremendous amount of coverage of Spain's largest Olympic delegation ever, and much of that attention was centered on the basketball team. After that buildup, the OT win over China had to be a letdown, but it's early.

wisteria
08-12-2008, 02:19 PM
as a matter of fact, this didn't really cause much trouble. Most Chinese do not really understand the potential racial message behind the photo. (I still don't understand. What does it mean? meaning that Chinese, or Asian in general, have small eyes? ) I saw some people trying to distribute this photo on Chinese websites, but no one was really paying much notice with so much going on in the games.

roywhite
08-12-2008, 02:49 PM
as a matter of fact, this didn't really cause much trouble. Most Chinese do not really understand the potential racial message behind the photo. (I still don't understand. What does it mean? meaning that Chinese, or Asian in general, have small eyes? ) I saw some people trying to distribute this photo on Chinese websites, but no one was really paying much notice with so much going on in the games.

Well, I suppose such things are in the "eye of the beholder", but the ad seems to be making fun of a "slant-eyed" appearance. Certainly, "slant-eyed Japs" and "slant-eyed gooks" were derisive, racially tinged labels applied during wartime.

miramar
08-12-2008, 02:50 PM
According to the NYT, it seems that the main sensitivity at the Olympics is air quality.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/sports/olympics/13cycling.html?ref=olympics

sagegrouse
08-12-2008, 02:56 PM
Well, I suppose such things are in the "eye of the beholder", but the ad seems to be making fun of a "slant-eyed" appearance. Certainly, "slant-eyed Japs" and "slant-eyed gooks" were derisive, racially tinged labels applied during wartime.

Is it OK to request "round-eyed" spices at a Thai restaurant? :):):)

sagegrouse

studdlee10
08-12-2008, 03:03 PM
Your experiences in Spain were far different than mine, though I will fully admit Barcelona is an exception.

I call BS when you say that Spaniards have no clue what that gesture means. I spent 3 weeks in Madrid and cannot tell you the number of times I had people pull their eyelids at me or make Bruce Lee kung fu sounds and motions at me. They even went so far as to throw food at me while taunting "chino" when I attended a bull fight with my girlfriend (also asian). The countless stares on the subway were the most uncomfortable I have ever felt in my life, and have been to my fair share of places around the world, so please excuse me when I don't cut the Spaniards some slack, especially given their long history of racism. Was it just in good fun when they made monkey noises at Thierry Henry or when they taunted Lewis Hamilton so mercilessly, that they had to be reprimanded by F1?








I have been to Spain 15 times since I spent a year studying at the University of Barcelona in the 1970s.

As the article notes, it would not even occur to most Spaniards that anyone would find this gesture offensive (or ridiculous, silly, etc.), which is a shame. Ironically, Spain is a remarkably tolerant society with a large and growing Chinese community.

Football fans are something else again. In many cases they will say absolutely anything to get inside the opponents' heads, so that means that race, religion, the players' sisters, and just about anything else is fair game. They can be quite crude, but fortunately nothing compared to many of their English counterparts. Spanish fans actually use the English words supporters and hooligans, and understand the difference between the two.

Finally, the buildup to the Olympic Games in Spain during the month of July was actually far greater than anything here in the US. Newspapers and TV had a tremendous amount of coverage of Spain's largest Olympic delegation ever, and much of that attention was centered on the basketball team. After that buildup, the OT win over China had to be a letdown, but it's early.

miramar
08-12-2008, 05:52 PM
Your experiences in Spain were far different than mine, though I will fully admit Barcelona is an exception.

I call BS when you say that Spaniards have no clue what that gesture means. I spent 3 weeks in Madrid and cannot tell you the number of times I had people pull their eyelids at me or make Bruce Lee kung fu sounds and motions at me. They even went so far as to throw food at me while taunting "chino" when I attended a bull fight with my girlfriend (also asian). The countless stares on the subway were the most uncomfortable I have ever felt in my life, and have been to my fair share of places around the world, so please excuse me when I don't cut the Spaniards some slack, especially given their long history of racism. Was it just in good fun when they made monkey noises at Thierry Henry or when they taunted Lewis Hamilton so mercilessly, that they had to be reprimanded by F1?

I don't think you understood my previous comment. Obviously the basketball players knew the meaning of the gesture since they used it in the context of the Olympics in Peking.

What I said is that it is a shame that most Spaniards would not realize that the gesture is offensive. I certainly did not indicate that I consider any of this in good fun.

As far as "their long history of racism," they are certainly not alone.

hc5duke
08-12-2008, 05:58 PM
As far as "their long history of racism," they are certainly not alone.

I'd agree with this point. What happened to studlee could have happened in just about any other country, and not just within Europe. Just about any mono-ethnic country (or a country with a clear majority ethnicity) is guilty of this. I'd also add that this is especially true where there is alcohol involved, like at the bull fight (they do serve alcohol right?:confused:).

dkbaseball
08-12-2008, 06:37 PM
I have lived abroad and traveled extensively in Europe, and the Continent is the most racist area on earth, and I am from the South. Such attitudes are accepted and even encouraged in these nations. Europes fanaticism with Soccer is not about the game. It is merely an acceptable outlet for racism whereby the fans are allowed, nay, encouraged to be as racist as they like. Watch the stands at a soccer pitch in Europe (Not Great Britain) and you will be truly horrified.

I'm very much a Europhile and often compare the U.S. quite unfavorably to Europe, sometimes to the exasperation of family and friends, but it was quite a revelation to me to read How Soccer Explains the World and learn of the race-baiting that goes on in European soccer. E.g., a crowd in Hungary would make a hissing sound as if gas were seeping into a chamber when their team was playing a largely Jewish squad. We've got a lot to learn from the Continent about public policy matters and culture in general, but I'm afraid they may have a tough road ahead on this issue as they become more racially diverse.

billybreen
08-12-2008, 06:41 PM
I'm very much a Europhile and often compare the U.S. quite unfavorably to Europe, sometimes to the exasperation of family and friends, but it was quite a revelation to me to read How Soccer Explains the World and learn of the race-baiting that goes on in European soccer. E.g., a crowd in Hungary would make a hissing sound as if gas were seeping into a chamber when their team was playing a largely Jewish squad. We've got a lot to learn from the Continent about public policy matters and culture in general, but I'm afraid they may have a tough road ahead on this issue as they become more racially diverse.

Say it with me, dkb: USA USA USA!

wisteria
08-12-2008, 07:00 PM
oh lord.... Just when I was thinking this photo isn't really making much noise, apparently the major media outlets are now picking up the report. That has to promote the controversy. I doubt there would be any official responses unless the media reporters really push the question. But if it gets major attention of the Chinese on internet...

billybreen
08-12-2008, 07:10 PM
oh lord.... Just when I was thinking this photo isn't really making much noise, apparently the major media outlets are now picking up the report. That has to promote the controversy. I doubt there would be any official responses unless the media reporters really push the question. But if it gets major attention of the Chinese on internet...

I hope it becomes a full scale international incident. Would be nice to have home court advantage against Spain.

wisteria
08-12-2008, 07:14 PM
I hope it becomes a full scale international incident. Would be nice to have home court advantage against Spain.

oh, don't worry. Don't you know? Seriously, team U.S.A. is having probably the same home court advantage as team China. For whatever reasons, my fellow countrymen are in deep love with the NBA. :o

billybreen
08-12-2008, 07:16 PM
oh, don't worry. Don't you know? Seriously, team U.S.A. is having probably the same home court advantage as team China. For whatever reasons, my fellow countrymen are in deep love with the NBA. :o

What's not to love?

miramar
08-12-2008, 07:28 PM
oh lord.... Just when I was thinking this photo isn't really making much noise, apparently the major media outlets are now picking up the report. That has to promote the controversy. I doubt there would be any official responses unless the media reporters really push the question. But if it gets major attention of the Chinese on internet...

The Huffington Post and the O'Reilly Factor have certainly commented, as has the NYT:

http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/what-the-world-is-saying-a-spanish-ad-falls-flat-and-an-aussie-gets-snarky/

The Spanish press is also getting into the act. The El Mundo newspaper (the country's second largest) has a more complete quote from the The Toronto Raptors’ José Manuel Calderón than the NYT, as he defends himself by noting (I am not making this up!) that some of his best friends are Asian:

http://www.elmundo.es/jjoo/2008/2008/08/12/baloncesto/1218564829.html

Another Spanish site suggests that the photo may be irresponsible, but allows you to vote on whether the gesture is racist or not (13% yes and 87% no).

http://www.publico.es/deportes/juegosolimpicos/142105/seleccion/espanola/baloncesto/acusada/racista

hc5duke
08-12-2008, 07:39 PM
...a more complete quote from the The Toronto Raptors’ José Manuel Calderón than the NYT, as he defends himself by noting (I am not making this up!) that some of his best friends are Asian:

http://www.elmundo.es/jjoo/2008/2008/08/12/baloncesto/1218564829.html

That's actually reminded me of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc) (covers the whole "I have xxx friends so I can't be racist" defense)

heyman25
08-12-2008, 09:44 PM
I want the USA to pound the Spanish team even more and I hope Pau Gasol catches some grief when he comes back to Los Angeles which has several million Asians in the greater Metropolitan area. l don't think that gesture in the photograph was a wink like Jose Calderon claimed. Good for Chicago Rio de Janeiro and Tokyo to host 2016 and not Madrid.

First things first our three pt shooting is atrocious. Charley Rosen has a very negative critique of the performance against Angola. Greece plays very physical, causing Nowitski to take a swing at the Greek center. We better sharpen up. Anthony and Boozer are going to have to play a lot better,because they will be needed against the Greeks.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
08-12-2008, 11:40 PM
I don't find it offensive.

It's just a different culture.

humor and tolerance will make you become happier over all. give it a try.

hc5duke
08-13-2008, 12:15 AM
I don't find it offensive.

It's just a different culture.

humor and tolerance will make you become happier over all. give it a try.

As another poster mentioned in this thread, would you feel the same way if they had blackface on and the games were hosted somewhere in Africa?

ForeverBlowingBubbles
08-13-2008, 09:51 AM
As another poster mentioned in this thread, would you feel the same way if they had blackface on and the games were hosted somewhere in Africa?

I would feel the exact same way. I don't think the gesture was meant to show the race as inferior. I don't think putting "blackface" on would be offensive if it wasn't showing the race as inferior either (and it was the Spanish who did so).
Africans have dark skin because they evolved in a warmer region of the world. Nothing really to make fun of for that. I'm sure Asians eyes evolved for some reason or another which I just don't feel like googling. Just because American's do stuff typically for offensive reasons doesn't mean the rest of the world lives by the same principles.

COYS
08-13-2008, 10:03 AM
I think this could be construed as funny if it were in an entirely different setting. If the Spanish basketball team were an international comedy troupe and were trying to be ironic or silly or even just make fun of racism in general, I could see it being funny. If the Chinese and Spanish team posed for photos together and both groups made fun of each other, that could potential work, though it would have to be executed just right. And it is very possible that every single player on the team thought the picture was in good humor. But, as I said earlier, this is not very different from dressing up in black paint for games in Africa or holding gold coins for games in Israel or wearing a ghutra for games in Saudi Arabia. In certain circles it could be funny in an irreverent sort of way (and don't get me wrong, I love irreverent humor!). But if you do this in a public setting where everyone might not be clued in on the joke, then you certainly risk upsetting people. I think people with a great sense of humor still have the right to be miffed that the Spanish team is acting in such a disrespectful way, whether the intention was to be humorous or not. When you're a basketball team that is supposed to be representing an entire nation, it's entirely inappropriate.

billybreen
08-13-2008, 10:17 AM
Just because American's (sic) do stuff typically for offensive reasons doesn't mean the rest of the world lives by the same principles.

What does that even mean?

And shouldn't it be up to the aggrieved party to decide what is in good fun or not? I don't think your feelings on blackface or eye-pulling are particularly relevant unless you are a black Asian dude.

miramar
08-13-2008, 11:59 AM
The IOC has indicated that the ad was inappropriate and Pau Gasol has apologized, although others were bothered by comparisons to soccer/F1 behavior.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/sports/olympics/14hoops.html?ref=olympics

hc5duke
08-13-2008, 01:12 PM
What does that even mean?

And shouldn't it be up to the aggrieved party to decide what is in good fun or not? I don't think your feelings on blackface or eye-pulling are particularly relevant unless you are a black Asian dude.

A tribunal of Tiger Woods, Hines Ward, and Kailee Wong will discuss and get back to you on this. :D

bludev03
08-13-2008, 04:30 PM
So you people are outraged over what the Spanish basketball team did, but found it perfectly acceptable for the Lax player to tell the stripper to "thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt" ? I don't recall any of you guys getting all huffed and puffed over that! Give me an effin break.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

darthur
08-13-2008, 04:30 PM
I have to say I find the strength of the backlash here a little surprising. Maybe it's because of my age (26) or my background (Toronto, which is 25% Asian, with no anti-Asian racism at all where I grew up), but I have almost never seen "slanty eyes" being used in any kind of derogatory way.

Is it impossible that the Spanish Olympics team sees it similarly? As just a symbol of China, like the dragon on the court? A gesture can be derogatory in one country, and not in another. If the gesture became prominent in the USA during WW2, remember that (a) Spain was not heavily involved against Japan, and (b) none of the Spanish national team would have been born at that time.

billybreen
08-13-2008, 04:33 PM
So you people are outraged over what the Spanish basketball team did, but found it perfectly acceptable for the Lax player to tell the stripper to "thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt" ? I don't recall any of you guys getting all huffed and puffed over that! Give me an effin break.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You need to back up an assertion that ridiculous. Who here was blasé about that?

hc5duke
08-13-2008, 04:49 PM
You need to back up an assertion that ridiculous. Who here was blasé about that?

Yeah really. If anything I recall most of the people's reaction on this board was that if our guys really did say that, it is reprehensible, regardless of the other events that took (or did not take) place that night.

Stray Gator
08-13-2008, 05:21 PM
So you people are outraged over what the Spanish basketball team did, but found it perfectly acceptable for the Lax player to tell the stripper to "thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt" ? I don't recall any of you guys getting all huffed and puffed over that! Give me an effin break.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I think your memory is faulty. When it was initially reported that one of the lacrosse players yelled that comment at the dancers as they were leaving the party, my recollection is that the player's behavior was roundly and uniformly condemned here. Even after one of the dancers later admitted in an interview that she probably provoked the shouting match by making disparaging remarks to the players on her way out, I distinctly remember that an attempt by one person here to portray the player's retort as excusable or at least understandable in light of those circumstances was overwhelmingly rejected by the DBR posters who weighed in on the issue. In any event, I can't recall a single person who ever characterized the player's parting shot as "acceptable."

Carlos
08-13-2008, 05:33 PM
So you people are outraged over what the Spanish basketball team did, but found it perfectly acceptable for the Lax player to tell the stripper to "thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt" ? I don't recall any of you guys getting all huffed and puffed over that! Give me an effin break.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I believe this is yours:

http://www.elporquedelascosas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/strawman1.jpg

billybreen
08-13-2008, 05:36 PM
I believe this is yours:

Lol. Looking at the posting history, bludev03 has a habit of lobbing a grenade such as this into a thread and then disappearing.

BD80
08-13-2008, 05:54 PM
So you people are outraged over what the Spanish basketball team did, but found it perfectly acceptable for the Lax player to tell the stripper to "thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt" ? I don't recall any of you guys getting all huffed and puffed over that! Give me an effin break.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

It was that very comment which caused many to pause in defending the LAX team. There was not one person who tried to excuse the comment as humorous.

On the other hand, it was the comment of a single ignorant player who was probably inebriated, certainly provoked, directed at a specific ignorant individual and not intending his comment to be published in a national publication.

Frankly, it is something to get "all huffed and puffed" over. If we are going to condemn racism and bigotry, we should uniformly condemn all forms of prejudice and bigotry.

I truly don't understand the humor that was allegedly intended. It seems to me to be making fun of the difference between Asian and European features. If someone could explain the humor, perhaps we are overreacting.

wisteria
08-13-2008, 06:15 PM
I think it is really interesting that this issue is getting more play and attention abroad than it is in China.

As I said, the picture does not really appear offensive to a lot of us native Chinese, simply because a lot of us don't know it is supposed to be referring to us. A lot of Chinese internet posters saw the picture and read the story, and their first question would be, why? what does this mean?

I simply couldn't figure out why anyone would use this slanted-eye gesture. Do you guys in the west honestly think that Chinese, or Asian in general, have slanted eyes? I mean...just as a natural facial feature, do you guys really think Asians have slanted eyes? Just like African people are usually black?

For me, or for a lot of us, it just doesn't make sense. Lucy Liu, the American-Chinese actress, is considered to be very strange-looking in the eyes of Chinese. We simply cannot figure out why she is considered to be an Asian-looking actress. I mean, she looks so different from your average Chinese.

Until today. I finally realized that, perhaps, in the western eyes, Asian people all have the Lucy Liu's eyes. But it is actually her eyes that most Chinese find "different".

I am posting this, sincerely asking this question: do you guys really think slanted-eyes is a natural facial feature of Asians (or Chinese)? I just think it's very interesting that our views could be so different.

I grew up in China and for more than 20 years, I've never realized that slanted-eye is supposed to be our facial feature. I know we generally have black hair, straight hair, flatter noses, yellow skin, and black/brown eyes. But slanted-eyes? definitely not a very typical feature.

darthur
08-13-2008, 08:15 PM
I truly don't understand the humor that was allegedly intended. It seems to me to be making fun of the difference between Asian and European features. If someone could explain the humor, perhaps we are overreacting.

Step back for a second, and forget your American background. Because symbols that have certain connotations in American society do not always have the same connotations abroad. A Spanish advertisement in Spain should be interpreted accordingly, and thus differently from an American advertisement. Ok, now:

I am pretty sure the photo was intended along the same lines as boys dressing up as men or women with fake beards or with fake breasts (a pillow under their shirt) - i.e. as silliness and nothing more. I do not think it should be taken as denigrating Chinese appearance any more than the boy costumes should be taken as denigrating the appearance of older men and women.

Now, a lot of Americans are very sensitive about racial differences in physical appearance. This is understandable - America, as the first major multicultural country in recent history, has been dealing with racism on a large scale for centuries. In other countries, this is just not true, and these topics are less sensitive. And this is not just because countries like Spain don't care if their small Asian population is offended. As I said earlier in this thread, slanty eyes are also not considered offensive by my generation in Toronto, and I'm including the 25% of my generation that are Asian when I say this.

Americans just need to understand that social norms can easily vary from one country to the next, and sometimes, the differences aren't a result of the other country being wrong. Sometimes, the norms just evolved differently there. In this case: we have a country that is not offended by references to slanty eyes. Unless you happen to know Chinese living in Spain are unhappy with this, it is presumptuous I think for Americans to call the attitude *wrong*. It is just different.

PS: I'm not saying racism does not exist in Spain, nor am I saying racism is all relative and can't be judged. I'm just saying that this particular ad has (imo) been blown out of proportion by the American media.

darthur
08-13-2008, 08:25 PM
I simply couldn't figure out why anyone would use this slanted-eye gesture. Do you guys in the west honestly think that Chinese, or Asian in general, have slanted eyes? I mean...just as a natural facial feature, do you guys really think Asians have slanted eyes? Just like African people are usually black?

I believe it is more accurate to say that westerners think Asians have "squinty eyes" - i.e. eyes that are wider and less tall than western eyes.

hc5duke
08-13-2008, 08:30 PM
Now, a lot of Americans are very sensitive about racial differences in physical appearance. This is understandable - America, as the first major multicultural country in recent history, has been dealing with racism on a large scale for centuries. In other countries, this is just not true, and these topics are less sensitive. And this is not just because countries like Spain don't care if their small Asian population is offended. As I said earlier in this thread, slanty eyes are also not considered offensive by my generation in Toronto, and I'm including the 25% of my generation that are Asian when I say this.

Just wanted some clarification - when you say "this is not true," you do mean that they are not dealing with the existing racism, not that there is less racism in those countries. Because I would argue that Spain (or China, France, Korea, etc.) in general is much more racist (or to put it another way, more insensitive/intolerant about other cultures) than the U.S..

One outcome from this is (I think this might have been mentioned in the current thread somewhere), this pretty much eliminates Madrid from the 2016 Olympics contenders list.

miramar
08-13-2008, 08:45 PM
In an article on this controversy, the NYT notes that an Iranian swimmer called in sick for a swimming heat rather than share the pool with an Israeli competitor. Unbelievable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/sports/olympics/14araton.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

hc5duke
08-13-2008, 08:55 PM
In an article on this controversy, the NYT notes that an Iranian swimmer called in sick for a swimming heat rather than share the pool with an Israeli competitor. Unbelievable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/sports/olympics/14araton.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

not sure how this is worse...

darthur
08-13-2008, 09:08 PM
Just wanted some clarification - when you say "this is not true," you do mean that they are not dealing with the existing racism, not that there is less racism in those countries. Because I would argue that Spain (or China, France, Korea, etc.) in general is much more racist (or to put it another way, more insensitive/intolerant about other cultures) than the U.S..

I mean that other countries have less of a *history* of dealing with racism, and so race relationships is less a part of the national consciousness - in most cases, because they have just never had powerful minorities. And yes, I think this does lead to more direct and outward racism than you see in the USA, largely because some people will equate racism with patriotism.

However, I think that outward racism is quite different from stuff like this ad, which IMO is just the product of normal people in a society that is less sensitive (or less over-sensitive, depending on your perspective). And as I said above, I think this insensitivity has more to do with innocence than with racism - these questions only become *really* offensive to people when they have a history of racial violence to look back on.

I think people here are equating this innocence with real racism. Spain as a whole may have both the innocence and the racism, thanks to its lack of minorities, but this does not extend to individual people. Single people can be innocent without being racist (just like a lot of Canada is from my last example). I think that's what's going on here with the Spanish national team, and why Americans, who cannot imagine being innocent when it comes to race, are so unsympathetic.

PS: You seem to be using insensitivity in the sense of selfish thoughtlessness. In America, I agree this is the only kind of racial insensitivity that is possible. I use it to mean, genuine innocence with regards to our (American) racial sensitivities. In the rest of the world, this is very possible, and I think it is a mistake to equate it with racism in any form.

JG Nothing
08-13-2008, 09:40 PM
I have to say I find the strength of the backlash here a little surprising. Maybe it's because of my age (26) or my background (Toronto, which is 25% Asian, with no anti-Asian racism at all where I grew up), but I have almost never seen "slanty eyes" being used in any kind of derogatory way.


I tell you what, the next time you're in Toronto why don't you greet an Asian by pulling the skin at the corner of your eyes and saying "hey slanty eyes." You might want to throw in a few "ching chongs" while you're at it. It shouldn't be a big deal because, apparently, "slanty eyes" is not used in any kind of derogatory way in Toronto. Let me know if the person hits you or simply flips you off.

hc5duke
08-13-2008, 09:41 PM
I mean that other countries have less of a *history* of dealing with racism, and so race relationships is less a part of the national consciousness - in most cases, because they have just never had powerful minorities. And yes, I think this does lead to more direct and outward racism than you see in the USA, largely because some people will equate racism with patriotism.

However, I think that outward racism is quite different from stuff like this ad, which IMO is just the product of normal people in a society that is less sensitive (or less over-sensitive, depending on your perspective). And as I said above, I think this insensitivity has more to do with innocence than with racism - these questions only become *really* offensive to people when they have a history of racial violence to look back on.

I think people here are equating this innocence with real racism. Spain as a whole may have both the innocence and the racism, thanks to its lack of minorities, but this does not extend to individual people. Single people can be innocent without being racist (just like a lot of Canada is from my last example). I think that's what's going on here with the Spanish national team, and why Americans, who cannot imagine being innocent when it comes to race, are so unsympathetic.

PS: You seem to be using insensitivity in the sense of selfish thoughtlessness. In America, I agree this is the only kind of racial insensitivity that is possible. I use it to mean, genuine innocence with regards to our (American) racial sensitivities. In the rest of the world, this is very possible, and I think it is a mistake to equate it with racism in any form.

I see what you're saying. Interesting thought: can we say this is like (making bad analogies is one of my lesser known hobbies) you made a joke about your friend's mom, only to find out she's dead? You didn't mean any harm, but your friend may still be offended by this. You're not a bad guy, you just didn't know this would offend someone. So you apologize and move on. I guess I can see the Spanish players honestly didn't think this would offend anyone.

ice-9
08-13-2008, 10:46 PM
I think of what can be considered "racist" in two aspects: 1) the intention of the starting party, 2) and the interpretation of the receiving party.

In the case of the Spanish basketball team, did they intend to be racist to the Chinese? I can believe that no, generally, the team did not mean to be offensive. But is it received in an offensive way? I can only speak for myself (ethnic Chinese, Indonesian national)...but hell yeah, I found the photograph offensive.

When it comes right down to it, it is how the receiving party perceives the action that really matters. For example, in my time at Duke, I see a lot of my African American friends calling each other "nigger." I didn't think they meant to be racist to one another; if anything, the term was used in an affectionate way. Thankfully I had enough common sense not to join in. Even if I called my African American friends niggers in a friendly, affectionate manner, I doubt many would receive it that way. So I don't. And neither do you.

It is of course impossible to be inoffensive at all times to all people, but we're not talking about a casual slip-up here. We are talking about a national team representing its country pulling their eyes in a fashion that could very well be interpreted as offensive to its intended recipients. This is more than a mistake; this is flat out insensitivity that could be endemic of a bigger underlying problem.

darthur
08-13-2008, 11:37 PM
Interesting thought: can we say this is like (making bad analogies is one of my lesser known hobbies) you made a joke about your friend's mom, only to find out she's dead?

I would go one step further, and say it's like making a joke about moms to your friend... only to find out the mom of someone else who overheard you is dead =).

Since this is a Spanish ad for Spanish people, I think the key is how the Spanish viewers (of all ethnicities) interpret it. If they believe it is really making fun of the Chinese, the ad was not so innocent, and it deserves criticism. If Spanish viewers do not see the ad in that way, then this whole fiasco comes down to Americans misinterpreting the ad because they are attributing their own social values (slanty eyes is a racial insult, not just a physical trait) to another culture. Since the ad was never intended to be seen by Americans anyway, that would hardly be the Spanish team's fault.

darthur
08-14-2008, 12:01 AM
I just had an idea for explaining my views a little better.

People in this thread have been quick to point out that Americans would not be okay with a European team painting themselves black for an ad for an African Olympics. However, I believe that most Americans WOULD be okay with an African team painting themselves white for an ad for a European Olympics. Why is this? One big reason is that there is an old tradition of whites making fun of blacks using black facepaint, so we associate black facepaint as derogatory, but we have no such assocation for white facepaint.

This is all fair enough, but it is *specific to America*. Another country that has no history of using black facepaint for anything might not see black facepaint as any worse than white facepaint. If they ran an internal ad using this black facepaint, it would be a mistake for us to say it was endorsing racism just because *we* associate black facepaint with racism.

In the same way, I think it is a mistake for us to assume the Spanish national team is endorsing racism with this ad just because WE (who are not the intended audience) happen to associate the slanty eye gesture with racism.

Anyway, I hope that clears up my view. Racism is never okay, but it is always important to distinguish actual racism from miscommunication, and I suspect this is the latter, not the former.

studdlee10
08-14-2008, 12:40 AM
I actually think this makes it worse.....they were trying to make a hush hush racist joke and are only mad because they got caught.



I would go one step further, and say it's like making a joke about moms to your friend... only to find out the mom of someone else who overheard you is dead =).

Since this is a Spanish ad for Spanish people, I think the key is how the Spanish viewers (of all ethnicities) interpret it. If they believe it is really making fun of the Chinese, the ad was not so innocent, and it deserves criticism. If Spanish viewers do not see the ad in that way, then this whole fiasco comes down to Americans misinterpreting the ad because they are attributing their own social values (slanty eyes is a racial insult, not just a physical trait) to another culture. Since the ad was never intended to be seen by Americans anyway, that would hardly be the Spanish team's fault.

darthur
08-14-2008, 03:56 AM
I actually think this makes it worse.....they were trying to make a hush hush racist joke and are only mad because they got caught.

If this is what you think is happening, that's fine, but... you are quoting me, and this sure isn't what I'm describing.

ice-9
08-14-2008, 09:06 AM
If Spanish viewers do not see the ad in that way, then this whole fiasco comes down to Americans misinterpreting the ad because they are attributing their own social values (slanty eyes is a racial insult, not just a physical trait) to another culture. Since the ad was never intended to be seen by Americans anyway, that would hardly be the Spanish team's fault.

darthur, to echo wisteria's question, do you really think slanty eyes is a Chinese feature? I mean, I know you live in Toronto and there are a lot of Chinese around you, are you telling me all those Chinese have slanty eyes? Are you saying it's OK to stereotype Chinese people as slanty eyed?

I'm surprised you think the whole slanty eye thing isn't considered racist in Toronto. Have you carried out JG Nothing's suggestion to greet Asians in your city with "Hey slanty eyes?" You posit a lot of interesting theories about how this whole thing is not racist, but I'd love to see you live out your statements. Please let us know how that goes. Just try it, OK? Next Chinese person you meet. Call him or her slanty eyes and report back on what happens.

Also, studlee10's point is the fact that the ad is intended for Spanish audiences and not American audiences does NOT make it OK that it was racially insensitive. Especially given this is the national team representing Spain in the Olympics, a fundamentally global event.

Personally, I don't think this whole fiasco is that big of a deal. The photograph was definitely offensive (to me), but as long as the participants can acknowledge how the photograph can be seen as offensive and are apologetic about it, there's not much left to it.

studdlee10
08-14-2008, 10:41 AM
In the grand scheme of things this is definitely not a big deal. Was I offended? Definitely, but these things can and will happen so there is no use dwelling on it.

The people in China don't seem to be paying particular attention to this, so I'll move on...but I sure wouldn't mind seeing Dwight and Lebron throw down some big dunks on Gasol's head in a couple days.



darthur, to echo wisteria's question, do you really think slanty eyes is a Chinese feature? I mean, I know you live in Toronto and there are a lot of Chinese around you, are you telling me all those Chinese have slanty eyes? Are you saying it's OK to stereotype Chinese people as slanty eyed?

I'm surprised you think the whole slanty eye thing isn't considered racist in Toronto. Have you carried out JG Nothing's suggestion to greet Asians in your city with "Hey slanty eyes?" You posit a lot of interesting theories about how this whole thing is not racist, but I'd love to see you live out your statements. Please let us know how that goes. Just try it, OK? Next Chinese person you meet. Call him or her slanty eyes and report back on what happens.

Also, studlee10's point is the fact that the ad is intended for Spanish audiences and not American audiences does NOT make it OK that it was racially insensitive. Especially given this is the national team representing Spain in the Olympics, a fundamentally global event.

Personally, I don't think this whole fiasco is that big of a deal. The photograph was definitely offensive (to me), but as long as the participants can acknowledge how the photograph can be seen as offensive and are apologetic about it, there's not much left to it.

studdlee10
08-14-2008, 10:55 AM
I'm not usually a huge Plaschke fan, but he sums it up much better than I ever could:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/olympics_blog/2008/08/plaschke-points.html

It isn't the gesture in itself that is completely offensive. It is the continued half-assed apologies and insistence that they were doing no wrong. The Spanish are being awfully defensive...if no harm was meant..there really shouldn't be a need to for it...Suck it up, apologize across the board and this issue is done.

darthur
08-14-2008, 10:58 AM
Well I have obviously irritated you jyuwono, and I'm sorry, but I will respond to your questions as best I can.


darthur, to echo wisteria's question, do you really think slanty eyes is a Chinese feature? I mean, I know you live in Toronto and there are a lot of Chinese around you, are you telling me all those Chinese have slanty eyes? Are you saying it's OK to stereotype Chinese people as slanty eyed?

Actually... sort of. I do think, on the whole, Chinese eyes look slightly different from American eyes. Why is this offensive? I understand the particular term "slanty eyes" is a derogatory term in the USA, which is not okay. However, "stereotyping" Chinese by saying their eyes, on the whole, are slightly different from western eyes is like stereotyping Africans by saying, on the whole, their skin is darker than western skin.


I'm surprised you think the whole slanty eye thing isn't considered racist in Toronto. Have you carried out JG Nothing's suggestion to greet Asians in your city with "Hey slanty eyes?" You posit a lot of interesting theories about how this whole thing is not racist, but I'd love to see you live out your statements. Please let us know how that goes. Just try it, OK? Next Chinese person you meet. Call him or her slanty eyes and report back on what happens.

You are fishing for a fight. I do not want to give you one - I'm sorry. It is also not a sensitive point in Toronto that women have breasts, but I wouldn't walk up to a woman and greet her with "hey, breasts" either.


Also, studlee10's point is the fact that the ad is intended for Spanish audiences and not American audiences does NOT make it OK that it was racially insensitive. Especially given this is the national team representing Spain in the Olympics, a fundamentally global event.

I understood studlee's point - he never understood mine though, as apparently you did not either. It is a massive oversimplification to just say the ad is "racially insensitive".

As I said, I think the problem is akin to Americans being offended by a Spanish ad because someone translated it incorrectly from Spanish to English, creating a derogatory joke in the English version that was not in the Spanish version. It seems to me American viewers have quite literally misunderstood the meaning here, because they happen to associate "slanty eyes" as being derogatory to Asians, whereas the Spanish view it as a perfectly non-derogatory symbol of China, similar to the dragon on the court. Think of "slanty eyes" as a Spanish word that Americans are mistranslating to add negative connotations that are not there in the original language. THAT is what I think is going on here.

ice-9
08-14-2008, 11:09 AM
I'm irritated by your posts because the gist of them seem to be that there is little reason to be offended by the Spanish team photo. That notion irritates me because I feel quite justified in feeling offended. I am also irritated by your generalization of what Chinese in Toronto do or do not find offensive and your use of that generalization to support your point.

I may be missing out on your main point, but you clearly missed out on mine. Ultimately what matters most is NOT what is intended but how it is received.

Your answer to the question of whether you think Chinese eyes are slanted is the following:


Actually... sort of. I do think, on the whole, Chinese eyes look slightly different from American eyes. Why is this offensive? I understand the particular term "slanty eyes" is a derogatory term in the USA, which is not okay. However, "stereotyping" Chinese by saying their eyes, on the whole, are slightly different from western eyes is like stereotyping Africans by saying, on the whole, their skin is darker than western skin.

Sorry, but "different" or "slightly different" eyes does not equate to "slanty eyed." Your failure to acknowledge this is...puzzling.


It is also not a sensitive point in Toronto that women have breasts, but I wouldn't walk up to a woman and greet her with "hey, breasts" either.

Tell you what: At the next cocktail party, I will go up to a woman and say, "Women have breasts." In turn, at your next cocktail party, you go up to a Chinese and say, "Chinese people have slanty eyes."

Deal??

hc5duke
08-14-2008, 11:31 AM
I'm irritated by your posts because the gist of them seem to be that there is little reason to be offended by the Spanish team photo. That notion irritates me because I feel quite justified in feeling offended.
I'm done being offended by the whole incident, but I won't be trying to convince you otherwise.


I am also irritated by your generalization of what Chinese in Toronto do or do not find offensive and your use of that generalization to support your point.
Ok, I do agree that darthur is probably wrong about the Chinese in Toronto not being offended by the "slanty-eye" gesture, but I think that has more to do with darthur not being a Chinese person in Toronto, than darthur trying to irritate anyone. To be fair, I'm not a Chinese person in Toronto either, so my assumption could be wrong too.


I may be missing out on your main point, but you clearly missed out on mine. Ultimately what matters most is NOT what is intended but how it is received.
This is where I think my analogy (improved upon by darthur) makes sense. Spain made a joke about China's mom. America and some other countries got offended because their mom is dead. Spain apologized. Let's move on.


Sorry, but "different" or "slightly different" eyes does not equate to "slanty eyed." Your failure to acknowledge this is...puzzling.
Aren't we just arguing semantics here? We've covered that Asian eyes tend to be wider (like African skin tends to be darker) than "western" eyes, and I have no idea where you're getting "slanty" from. To be fair, the original discussion was about the Spanish players making their eyes look "wider," which understandably can be offensive, but nobody on their team used the term "slanty". That's like if the Chinese team put on blackface without realizing it's considered offensive (I don't know about China, but that would be nothing new in Japan (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1804565)), we'd start arguing they were calling black players niggers.


Tell you what: At the next cocktail party, I will go up to a woman and say, "Women have breasts." In turn, at your next cocktail party, you go up to a Chinese and say, "Chinese people have slanty eyes."

I don't understand why darthur is on trial here... Was this really necessary? Come on...

devildownunder
08-14-2008, 11:50 AM
I would go one step further, and say it's like making a joke about moms to your friend... only to find out the mom of someone else who overheard you is dead =).

Since this is a Spanish ad for Spanish people, I think the key is how the Spanish viewers (of all ethnicities) interpret it. If they believe it is really making fun of the Chinese, the ad was not so innocent, and it deserves criticism. If Spanish viewers do not see the ad in that way, then this whole fiasco comes down to Americans misinterpreting the ad because they are attributing their own social values (slanty eyes is a racial insult, not just a physical trait) to another culture. Since the ad was never intended to be seen by Americans anyway, that would hardly be the Spanish team's fault.

Don't the feelings of the Chinese have anything to do with this?

ItalianDevil
08-14-2008, 12:25 PM
Wow, what a flaming. I'm from Italy, I'm far from being a freakin' racist, but I think the Spanish team guys purpose was to shoot a funny pic, after all.
If it was a soccer team I would have agreed with the racial issue, but hoop players (at least in Europe) are infinitely wiser that soccer guys, for a lot of reasons.
I think the "politically and racially correct issue" has gone too far.
Btw, don't forget also existing racism in the US, I found it very subtle and latent but it's still very much present in your country, too (first of all in job opportunities).
It's also true that Euro soccer audience often boos black people, this happens a lot in nations that just recently had a growing immigration factor (eg: Italy, Spain, Greece). Recently UEFA introduced a rule that leave the ref the decision to indefinitely suspend a game if he hears boos (emulating monkeys, yes it's that horrible) directed to colored players. It happens seldom (if never) and often the team ownership is fined instead.
Leave these nations time, btw it's been just 40 years that afroamerican guys attend former-white schools in a lot of southern US states, after all.

Just wanted to say mine...

Best regards
Marco

darthur
08-14-2008, 01:14 PM
Don't the feelings of the Chinese have anything to do with this?

I am trying to make a pretty subtle distinction here, so bear with me. Like a few other people, you are definitely misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. It is probably my fault more than yours, but it is a misinterpretation nonetheless. So let me try to clarify.

I do NOT believe a racist Spanish message is okay if it is not shown to the people it is insulting.

I DO believe that a Spanish message that is effectively mistranslated to add negative connotations when they were not there originally is a different story.

In *my* opinion, this ad is more of the second scenario than the first. In America, the slanty eye gesture has negative connotations. To the Spanish basketball team, I think it does not have negative connotations any more than the Chinese dragon on the court does it. They were just trying to add another symbol of China to the picture.

Foreign viewer understand the symbol differently and are upset by it, but in the end, it is (IMO) a translation error, not callousness.

darthur
08-14-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm irritated by your posts because the gist of them seem to be that there is little reason to be offended by the Spanish team photo.

I think you have every reason to be upset about the poster - I understand it is a very sensitive issue for a lot of people. However, I just don't think it's clear that the real culprit here is necessarily callousness on the part of the Spanish team. I think cultural differences have caused us Americans to misread the ad in a way that is quite similar to a translation error (it's not our fault - how could we as a culture not misread it?), seeing negative connotations in a symbol where there was supposed to be none. IMO, this is an unhappy communication breakdown, not racism.


I am also irritated by your generalization of what Chinese in Toronto do or do not find offensive and your use of that generalization to support your point.

I am sorry you feel that way. All I can say is that I have lived in Toronto and I have lived in the USA, and I am quite sure it is a much less sensitive point among my generation Toronto than among many in the USA. Could I be wrong? Of course, but it wouldn't be out of callousness or racism.

However, what makes you so sure I'm wrong? Have you grown up in Toronto? I think you underestimate how different these things can be from one country to the next.

BD80
08-14-2008, 06:02 PM
Another good take:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-33-174/Some-Jokes-Aren-t-Funny.html

I'm still waiting for someone to explain just how the entire team distorting their eyes was "funny." I get the John the Baptist joke, I don't get the slanty eyes joke.

Another note from the article, the team apologized but didn't pull the add. It is still running.

ice-9
08-15-2008, 03:29 AM
I'm done being offended by the whole incident, but I won't be trying to convince you otherwise.

It's difficult to avoid interpreting the above sentence as an ad hominem attempt to portray me as a guy who made a mountain out of a molehill and can't let go (or maybe I am being too sensitive)...

...but c'est la vie. I did write I didn't think the whole thing was a big deal. My last two posts were really more about responding to darthur than criticizing the Spanish bball team.


Ok, I do agree that darthur is probably wrong about the Chinese in Toronto not being offended by the "slanty-eye" gesture, but I think that has more to do with darthur not being a Chinese person in Toronto, than darthur trying to irritate anyone. To be fair, I'm not a Chinese person in Toronto either, so my assumption could be wrong too.

Aren't we just arguing semantics here? We've covered that Asian eyes tend to be wider (like African skin tends to be darker) than "western" eyes, and I have no idea where you're getting "slanty" from. To be fair, the original discussion was about the Spanish players making their eyes look "wider," which understandably can be offensive, but nobody on their team used the term "slanty". That's like if the Chinese team put on blackface without realizing it's considered offensive (I don't know about China, but that would be nothing new in Japan (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1804565)), we'd start arguing they were calling black players niggers.

I don't understand why darthur is on trial here... Was this really necessary? Come on...

darthur is a big boy. I'm sure he doesn't need you to speak up for him. :)

In the case of this thread, semantics actually IS important. The term "slanty eyes" was what darthur wrote to: "Maybe it's because of my age (26) or my background (Toronto, which is 25% Asian, with no anti-Asian racism at all where I grew up), but I have almost never seen 'slanty eyes' being used in any kind of derogatory way."

Anyway. I'm beginning to repeat myself and that's usually a good sign to exit the conversation. Time to leave this mountain and move on to the next molehill...

vb5678
08-15-2008, 11:09 AM
Apparently this is not the first time a Spanish team has done this exact sort of thing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2559578/Beijing-Olympics-Second-Spanish-team-photographed-making-slit-eyed-gesture.html

Now, I think the article says that this was photographed before the Olympics and the basketball team photo fiasco. However, when I checked the Spanish tennis federation website:

http://www.rfet.es/galeria/001.php?j=1&id=32&subid=32&offset=800&ide=22

It was STILL up, although I don't know if they'll take it down anytime soon. I don't want to make any generalizations about Spain based off the behaviour of its atheletes, but I think it's important for them to realize from this incident such things AREN'T okay to a lot of people. As long as this behavior doesn't continue and they don't keep on justifying it with flimsy "it's just a joke, I have lots of Asian friends har har har" defenses, I think it's a good lesson learned.

Now if photos of athletes like this one keep popping up........

Johnboy
08-15-2008, 11:27 AM
I'm a little amazed that the filters don't pick up on the "N" word.

Note: I'm not objecting to its use thus far in this thread.

vb5678
08-15-2008, 11:40 AM
Sorry, I don't mean to spam, but I couldn't edit my above post.
Apparantly the Spanish woman's team also did the above pose, most likely at the same photo shoot.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/olympics/chi-seurwomen20080813152757,0,6029346.photo

devildownunder
08-15-2008, 12:13 PM
I am trying to make a pretty subtle distinction here, so bear with me. Like a few other people, you are definitely misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. It is probably my fault more than yours, but it is a misinterpretation nonetheless. So let me try to clarify.

I do NOT believe a racist Spanish message is okay if it is not shown to the people it is insulting.

I DO believe that a Spanish message that is effectively mistranslated to add negative connotations when they were not there originally is a different story.

In *my* opinion, this ad is more of the second scenario than the first. In America, the slanty eye gesture has negative connotations. To the Spanish basketball team, I think it does not have negative connotations any more than the Chinese dragon on the court does it. They were just trying to add another symbol of China to the picture.

Foreign viewer understand the symbol differently and are upset by it, but in the end, it is (IMO) a translation error, not callousness.



I'm just saying that the reaction of the Chinese -- and for that matter, people of Asian descent anywhere -- to this "incident" must be part of the equation when assessing Spain's rightness or wrongness here. Not necessarily in relation to the initial gesture (although, I would argue that some knowledge of how things will go over on the world stage might be in order) but as regards their conduct since the controversy began.

If some Chinese people or Asian people around the world have been offended by this, then I think Spain's best move would have been to say something along the lines of "we apoligise for offending anyone. we showed poor judgment." A mea culpa, end of story. But instead, the Spanish have been indignant and high-handed about it all. I find that behavior quite offensive, regardless of the initial intent of the photograph.

And btw, I find the arguments to support the notion that they meant nothing negative by the pic a bit hard to stomach anyway. I realise there are cultural differences but in what universe can that pic possibly be construed as a "friendly gesture". If they were headed to Latin America, would they have all dressed up like Colombian drug mules? If they were headed to sub-saharan Africa would they have sucked they have posed with spears or in black face? I mean, is their argument really that this is just what they do in Spain, they pick out the most obvious feature of the majority of the people wherever they are going and parody it, as a gesture of respect, caring, love and goodwill? I'm not Spanish, so I guess I'll never know for sure but that one doesn't pass the smell test for me. I think best case scenario is that it was benign but insensitive. And at worst, I think it was a race-based slam.

hc5duke
08-15-2008, 01:21 PM
I think someone brought up "what if the Chinese had worn blackface" situation... well, I give you "Darlie" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlie).


[Until 1985] the original name was "Darkie"... The package featured an image said to have been inspired by an Al Jolson performance, that of a wide-eyed, smiling dark-skinned Black male wearing a top hat and tie.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/DarkieToothpaste.jpg/250px-DarkieToothpaste.jpg

I'm guessing not many people in Taiwan thought this was racist either, until someone (I guess the American company that bought it) pointed it out. Now granted this was 1985 and the photograph in question is 2008, I think these are similar situations where the "offending" party was unaware of their "offense" outside their country.

HaveFunExpectToWin
08-15-2008, 01:38 PM
Apparently this is not the first time a Spanish team has done this exact sort of thing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2559578/Beijing-Olympics-Second-Spanish-team-photographed-making-slit-eyed-gesture.html

What I found interesting is the caption below the tennis team photo says "We prepare for China", just in case the unsubtle racism went over your head.

billybreen
08-15-2008, 01:55 PM
I'm just saying that the reaction of the Chinese -- and for that matter, people of Asian descent anywhere -- to this "incident" must be part of the equation when assessing Spain's rightness or wrongness here. Not necessarily in relation to the initial gesture (although, I would argue that some knowledge of how things will go over on the world stage might be in order) but as regards their conduct since the controversy began.

If some Chinese people or Asian people around the world have been offended by this, then I think Spain's best move would have been to say something along the lines of "we apoligise for offending anyone. we showed poor judgment." A mea culpa, end of story. But instead, the Spanish have been indignant and high-handed about it all. I find that behavior quite offensive, regardless of the initial intent of the photograph.

And btw, I find the arguments to support the notion that they meant nothing negative by the pic a bit hard to stomach anyway. I realise there are cultural differences but in what universe can that pic possibly be construed as a "friendly gesture". If they were headed to Latin America, would they have all dressed up like Colombian drug mules? If they were headed to sub-saharan Africa would they have sucked they have posed with spears or in black face? I mean, is their argument really that this is just what they do in Spain, they pick out the most obvious feature of the majority of the people wherever they are going and parody it, as a gesture of respect, caring, love and goodwill? I'm not Spanish, so I guess I'll never know for sure but that one doesn't pass the smell test for me. I think best case scenario is that it was benign but insensitive. And at worst, I think it was a race-based slam.

Agreed. There should be a universal standard for offense, and that standard should be driven by the feelings of the aggrieved. The argument of Spanish innocence is wholly unconvincing given Spain's recent history of casual racism in sports. At best, Spain is guilty of willful ignorance, and I don't think it's too much to ask that they be more sensitive of racial differences.

rasputin
08-15-2008, 03:25 PM
Agreed. There should be a universal standard for offense, and that standard should be driven by the feelings of the aggrieved. The argument of Spanish innocence is wholly unconvincing given Spain's recent history of casual racism in sports. At best, Spain is guilty of willful ignorance, and I don't think it's too much to ask that they be more sensitive of racial differences.

This reminds me of the argument made in support of using team names and mascots like Indians and Chief Illiniwek--that the user's "intent" is to "honor" Native Americans, so no one should take offense. It's a remarkably silly argument given that offense actually is taken.

darthur
08-15-2008, 03:26 PM
Agreed. There should be a universal standard for offense, and that standard should be driven by the feelings of the aggrieved.

Perhaps there should be such a thing. Nonetheless, I argue that there isn't. And it's not anyone's fault.

I just completely and utterly disagree with the claim that there can be a universal set of etiquette, which is essentially what you are advocating. Nor, by and large, is one set of etiquette better than another - it is just what each culture agrees is polite/rude/offensive/well-meaning. It is VERY easy to offend someone if you do not know their etiquette.

And who, exactly, have the Spanish offended here? As far as I can tell: Americans. The Chinese seem unconcerned. So do other Europeans. Why should the Spanish have known that Americans would interpret their internal ad as being demeaning to Chinese?


The argument of Spanish innocence is wholly unconvincing given Spain's recent history of casual racism in sports.

Assuming I'm interpreting this right, I would argue that this is an extremely unfair statement. The Spanish national team should not be judged based on the fact that some other people in Spain are racist. Negatively prejudging individuals based on our conception of their countrymen is one of the biggest causes of racism in the first place.

darthur
08-15-2008, 03:39 PM
This reminds me of the argument made in support of using team names and mascots like Indians and Chief Illiniwek--that the user's "intent" is to "honor" Native Americans, so no one should take offense. It's a remarkably silly argument given that offense actually is taken.

That is a different question:

If you FIND OUT that people are offended by something you have said / done, even if you believe it was misinterpreted, is it your obligation to stop saying / doing it?

I think almost everybody would say yes to this. So by extension: this means the Spanish should pull their ad and apologize to avoid causing further offense.

However: this does not mean the Sanish were bad people for shooting it in the first place. When they took the photos, nobody had told them that it would be found offensive. They really could honestly believe it would be interpreted benignly at that point. (Yes, Americans, it's true - not everybody knows our customs.) Then, it becomes an honest mistake, something quite different from the current argument about university mascots, where everybody knows exactly where everybody else stands.

Qwerty
08-15-2008, 06:34 PM
I'm surprised at how easily some dismiss the people taking offense, as if being American means that your feelings don't matter. There are about 3.6 million people who are both Chinese AND American. The Spanish ad was about the Beijing Olympics, but there are many Asians besides those living in China whose opinions are important.

Carlos
08-15-2008, 06:44 PM
There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Spanish.

darthur
08-15-2008, 07:29 PM
I'm surprised at how easily some dismiss the people taking offense, as if being American means that your feelings don't matter. There are about 3.6 million people who are both Chinese AND American. The Spanish ad was about the Beijing Olympics, but there are many Asians besides those living in China whose opinions are important.

I assume you are talking to me since I am the one primarily talking about the American reaction, but you have badly misunderstood me if so.

I never said it was fair that Americans have been offended. What I did say was that I think the initial offense is primarily the result of people from two cultures having very different understandings of a certain hand gesture. It is IMO an unfortunate accident, and it is not due to Spanish racism or Spanish callousness. Sometimes breach of etiquette across cultures happens by accident.

If you wish to argue with me or disagree with me, please do so. However, I have tried very hard over many posts to clearly (and politely) express my position. It is hard to explain, but I am trying my best. If you wish to dismiss it, all I ask is that you try equally hard to make sure you completely understand it first.

Dr. Rosenrosen
08-15-2008, 07:35 PM
However: this does not mean the Sanish were bad people for shooting it in the first place. When they took the photos, nobody had told them that it would be found offensive. They really could honestly believe it would be interpreted benignly at that point. (Yes, Americans, it's true - not everybody knows our customs.) Then, it becomes an honest mistake, something quite different from the current argument about university mascots, where everybody knows exactly where everybody else stands.

A Reuters article quoted Pau Gasol where he said that he was uncomfortable with the concept but went ahead with it at the insistence of the sponsors. So seemingly at least one person in the room had a clue it was stupid if not potentially offensive. Unfortunately his spine was too weak to allow him to stand up for what he says he felt at the time.

darthur
08-15-2008, 07:47 PM
A Reuters article quoted Pau Gasol where he said that he was uncomfortable with the concept but went ahead with it at the insistence of the sponsors. So seemingly at least one person in the room had a clue it was stupid if not potentially offensive. Unfortunately his spine was too weak to allow him to stand up for what he says he felt at the time.

I would be curious to see the full quote. I think it is at best part of the story, because his other quotes paint quite a different picture: e.g. it's "ridiculous" that people are offended.

Assuming this is true though, and he's not just backpedaling to try to save face, it's interesting that this came from Gasol in particular. Since he is one of the (few?) Spanish team members to live in the USA, he *should* be the one to realize that people in the USA would be offended by the picture.

Dr. Rosenrosen
08-15-2008, 07:58 PM
I would be curious to see the full quote. I think it is at best part of the story, because his other quotes paint quite a different picture: e.g. it's "ridiculous" that people are offended.

Assuming this is true though, and he's not just backpedaling to try to save face, it's interesting that this came from Gasol in particular. Since he is one of the (few?) Spanish team members to live in the USA, he *should* be the one to realize that people in the USA would be offended by the picture.

From the Reuters article...

Pau Gasol, who plays for the Los Angeles Lakers, told the New York Times that, at the time, some of the players had felt uncomfortable shooting the advertisement for sponsors Seur, a Spanish courier company. Seur was unavailable for comment.

"To me it was little clownish for our part to be doing that. The sponsor insisted and insisted. They pushed because they're the people that pay the money. It was just a bad idea to do that. It was never intended to be offensive or racist against anybody," the New York Times quoted him as saying on its website.

"If anyone feels offended by it, we totally apologise for it."

darthur
08-15-2008, 08:14 PM
That is very interesting. I don't think I agree with your summary of the quote though.

There is one sentence saying the picture was a bad idea, which surely anyone can see by now. But I still don't think he gets it. Notice:

"it was a little clownish"
"It was never intended to be offensive"
"If anyone feels offended by it"

Even now, as far as I can tell, Gasol is saying a couple players were objecting that the picture was too "clownish", not that it was too offensive. To me, this is Gasol trying to backpedal, apologize and save face... but still not really understanding what the fuss is about.

HaveFunExpectToWin
08-15-2008, 08:18 PM
This post may be more appropriate in the USA-Spain thread, but does anyone else think that fallout from this will have an outcome on the game. If the Chinese fans are booing the Spanish team, we get the home court advantage, no?

darthur
08-15-2008, 08:22 PM
This post may be more appropriate in the USA-Spain thread, but does anyone else think that fallout from this will have an outcome on the game. If the Chinese fans are booing the Spanish team, we get the home court advantage, no?

Well as I understand it, China loves the US team so we'd have home-court advantage anyway =).

I do wonder though. Have the Chinese in China said any more about this? I'm guessing that even if the Chinese government did view it as derogatory, they would really try to play it down in public. This Olympics is supposed to be about China's accomplishments, not about other countries making fun of them.

awhom111
08-15-2008, 11:44 PM
I do wonder though. Have the Chinese in China said any more about this? I'm guessing that even if the Chinese government did view it as derogatory, they would really try to play it down in public. This Olympics is supposed to be about China's accomplishments, not about other countries making fun of them.

The Chinese in China might not be as offended by this because they have never had the gesture done in their direction. I have had people do this to me in a mocking gesture (in Mexico not the United States) and was hurt by that, so I was extremely offended as soon as I saw this picture. I would not be surprised, for example, if more black people who had the n-word directed at them opposed its use in all cases (including by other black people) than those who had never experienced racism in that form. Many Asian-Americans, including those who have grown up in places that have large Asian communities, like me, have at least one racist experience, and anything that reminds us of those specific incidents is likely to be hurtful.

footballfan
08-16-2008, 12:23 PM
i don't see why people are arguing so much here.

1) The ad was racist. How can one deny this? It is focusing on a one specific ethnic group and their "slanted eyes".

2) Now the real question is was it done in a mean or malicious way. Well that's the crux of the argument. Honestly (even though I was "offended" by the picture), I don't think it was meant to be in a mean way. Sort of like how we Americans make fun of "Southern" people.

3) The Chinese people aren't making a big deal of this for three reasons. The government media is not printing the ad, and probably surprisingly the Chinese have no clue what this gesture means. This gesture is a completely "Western" thing. It's like me going to some tribal village and showing them the "finger". They'll look at me like I'm retarded and just move on. Finally, Chinese probably dismiss it because in their mind Spain/Spanish means nothing to them. It would be interesting to see how they would react if the American did the same thing (trust me: Kobe wouldn't be so loved then).

Racism exists. And racisms is just based on ignorance. These Olympics (in China) are a good way to show the world an Asian culture.

Bluedog
08-16-2008, 01:04 PM
i don't see why people are arguing so much here.

1) The ad was racist. How can one deny this? It is focusing on a one specific ethnic group and their "slanted eyes".

2) Now the real question is was it done in a mean or malicious way. Well that's the crux of the argument. Honestly (even though I was "offended" by the picture), I don't think it was meant to be in a mean way. Sort of like how we Americans make fun of "Southern" people.

3) The Chinese people aren't making a big deal of this for three reasons. The government media is not printing the ad, and probably surprisingly the Chinese have no clue what this gesture means. This gesture is a completely "Western" thing. It's like me going to some tribal village and showing them the "finger". They'll look at me like I'm retarded and just move on. Finally, Chinese probably dismiss it because in their mind Spain/Spanish means nothing to them. It would be interesting to see how they would react if the American did the same thing (trust me: Kobe wouldn't be so loved then).

Racism exists. And racisms is just based on ignorance. These Olympics (in China) are a good way to show the world an Asian culture.

Yes, racism exists. I think the Chinese don't really care because, I'm sorry, but China (and most of Asia) is even more racist than the US, so nobody cares as much since it's commonplace and people just brush it off. In the Philippines, for example, they have ads for skin care products that exclaim, "don't be dark skinned, be as white as possible" for promoting their skin whitening products. Odd considering people are born in the Philippines with a tan. Can you imagine if similar ads took place in the US? There'd be an instant uproar that it would be taken away within a day. People from India who I know in the States tell me that their parents (and sometimes them) have an order of preference for people they can date with upper-class Indians being at the top of the list, whites being somewhere in the middle, and Chinese being below that and African Americans being at the bottom. Seems completely racist to me, but it's a different outlook, I guess. Anybody ever read Michael Crichton's Rising Sun?

The Chinese in China don't care about the ad at all. Admittedly, though, I don't see how the ad could be interpreted as "funny" or "respectful" though. Stupid idea to do it, especially considering some of them live in the US and should know how the US would react.

footballfan
08-16-2008, 01:49 PM
Yes, racism exists. I think the Chinese don't really care because, I'm sorry, but China (and most of Asia) is even more racist than the US, so nobody cares as much since it's commonplace and people just brush it off. In the Philippines, for example, they have ads for skin care products that exclaim, "don't be dark skinned, be as white as possible" for promoting their skin whitening products. Odd considering people are born in the Philippines with a tan. Can you imagine if similar ads took place in the US? There'd be an instant uproar that it would be taken away within a day. People from India who I know in the States tell me that their parents (and sometimes them) have an order of preference for people they can date with upper-class Indians being at the top of the list, whites being somewhere in the middle, and Chinese being below that and African Americans being at the bottom. Seems completely racist to me, but it's a different outlook, I guess. Anybody ever read Michael Crichton's Rising Sun?

The Chinese in China don't care about the ad at all. Admittedly, though, I don't see how the ad could be interpreted as "funny" or "respectful" though. Stupid idea to do it, especially considering some of them live in the US and should know how the US would react.

Well I'm not too sure what you write about the Philippines is based on "racism". They are all the same race. It is just based on cosmetic appearance. Just like how obese people or short people in this country are "frowned" upon. Now there is no doubt that all cultures are racist.... even towards other same ethnic groups. Japanese are "racist" towards Korean, etc..

We in this country always worry about racism and think we as a society are still very racist... but in actuality the US is probably the least racist country in the world.

TampaDuke
08-16-2008, 05:00 PM
Agreed. There should be a universal standard for offense, and that standard should be driven by the feelings of the aggrieved.

So if someone did something egregious with the clear intent of being racist but for whatever reason the intended target did not take offense than it is less reprehensible? Similarly, if a truly innocent gesture without racial motivation was taken as racism by a hypersensitive person or group, it would be the equivalent of intended racism?

Personally, I think both the individual's intent and the perception of the aggrieved must be relevant in assessing these issues, with intent being a bigger part of the equation.

That said, from what I can tell, the Spanish team's photo in this instance is reprehensible. I'm not an expert on Spanish or Chinese culture, but I just don't see what other intent was meant by this photo other than to make fun of Asians.

CameronBornAndBred
08-16-2008, 06:01 PM
Now I hope the USA just destroys Spain.

Wish granted.

Papa John
08-16-2008, 06:15 PM
Wish granted.

Nah-ah! Wish was Grant-ed in 1991... This wish would better be described as Wade-ed... or LeBron-ed... or Melo-ed [I like that one]...